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How the new "Multi-Sized Rigs system" may or may not ruin pvp

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Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:38:00 - [31] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/08/2009 18:42:10 Originally by: Proxyyyy I would just like to open the floor to people who feel that their are serious down sides to making rigs more affordable... Does it not bother anyone and im speaking to thoughs who enjoy solo pvp mostly. That it will in many cases make destroying ships of frigate af and bc class very difficult increasing the time it would take to destroy them. Enabling a pilot to call for support or in most cases just tank u forever unless neuts where applied but still the argument is the same the engagment would last longer. I do solo PVP a lot of the time, all my BCs were always rigged (cheaply), and I do not find it the least bit gamebreaking. You just need to fit for DPS - like you always did if you wanted to do the quick gank. The only thing which is really changed is now T1 cruisers are going to be rigged by default and therefore more potent; but they're still going to die preety quickly. This. Oh and welcome back Branko, decided to resub recently? --- Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Cearain	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:40:00 - [32] Let me just admit that I am not a big fan of blitz chess. But I think the op does have some logic for his position but is perhaps conflating two different issues: 1)Is the game mechanic too lopsided toward tanking instead of ganking? and 2) should rigs be more affordable for small ships? These are really two different questions and should be viewed as different questions. There are rigs to increase gank and rigs to increase tank. He is making an assumption that the rigs that increase tank are much better than the rigs that increase gank. This may be true. If we assume this is true then this change will lead to more tank. Now I don't think this is a problem, but if it is, it would seem that the way to correct the problem would be to rebalance the rig gank/tank ratio directly. But more importantly, if you think combat should be finished faster then I think there are many other things that can be done. Looking at rigs and saying no one should be able to afford them for most of their ships is IMO misguided. The issue really does not even directly deal with rigs. Why not just make gank mods/rigs/ship bonuses stronger or tank mods/rigs/ship bonuses weaker? Again if that is what you are after there are more direct routes than the somewhat convoluted method of simply making all rigs too expensive to buy for most ships. As for me I canÆt wait for the new rigs. I think its going to be great.
Almori	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:47:00 - [33] Many say it. I will say it too. ADAPT OR DIE. Thank you for your attention.
Mason Briggs	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:48:00 - [34] I can't believe this... I really can't... I've just finished waiting for a month to do material research on a Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I Bluprint... The point of this was to try out exploration and maybe make a few isk also... I just bought a Buzzard that i can't drive yet (will be able to in 6 days), so i couldn't rig it while waiting... And here they come and mess it all up... They take my blueprint and change it to the large version of the rig and crush my dreams Cause not only can't I fit it on my ship now but essentially the blueprint is now useless cause who in their right mind would rig a large vessel for exploration. They should have given us a choice or something... Is anyone as mad as me on this one? Is anyone I can complain to make my blueprint for frigates???
Lexa Hellfury Incura	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:52:00 - [35] Originally by: Mason Briggs Edited by: Mason Briggs on 20/08/2009 19:50:08 I can't believe this... I really can't... I've just finished waiting for a month to do material research on a Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I Bluprint... The point of this was to try out exploration and maybe make a few isk also... I just bought a Buzzard that i can't drive yet (will be able to in 6 days), so i couldn't rig it while waiting... And here they come and mess it all up... They take my blueprint and change it to the large version of the rig and crush my dreams ... I just realize I might not be in the right board to complain!!! Cause not only can't I fit it on my ship now but essentially the blueprint is now useless cause who in their right mind would rig a large vessel for exploration. They should have given us a choice or something... Is anyone as mad as me on this one? Is anyone I can complain to make my blueprint for frigates??? Originally by: RedSplat The Forum moderation Software known as Mitnal became self aware. CCP had no choice but to shut it down.
Proxyyyy Caldari Aenigmata	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:56:00 - [36] Originally by: Cearain Let me just admit that I am not a big fan of blitz chess. But I think the op does have some logic for his position but is perhaps conflating two different issues: 1)Is the game mechanic too lopsided toward tanking instead of ganking? and 2) should rigs be more affordable for small ships? These are really two different questions and should be viewed as different questions. There are rigs to increase gank and rigs to increase tank. He is making an assumption that the rigs that increase tank are much better than the rigs that increase gank. This may be true. If we assume this is true then this change will lead to more tank. Now I don't think this is a problem, but if it is, it would seem that the way to correct the problem would be to rebalance the rig gank/tank ratio directly. But more importantly, if you think combat should be finished faster then I think there are many other things that can be done. Looking at rigs and saying no one should be able to afford them for most of their ships is IMO misguided. The issue really does not even directly deal with rigs. Why not just make gank mods/rigs/ship bonuses stronger or tank mods/rigs/ship bonuses weaker? Again if that is what you are after there are more direct routes than the somewhat convoluted method of simply making all rigs too expensive to buy for most ships. As for me I canÆt wait for the new rigs. I think its going to be great. Agreed... But i my main arguments are increased cost of pvp, making rigs more afforable forces thoughs who woudnt think of rigging a t1 ship bc and lower are now forced to, and if anyone of you pvp alot you know this increase would mean less time pvp and more time making isk, than pvp'ing as for rigs everyone knows damage rigs are not even close to as usefull as thoughs that increase tank I.E. speed/active/passive Extesion rigs for slipneir and vagabonds make sense of course... And yes 1 of my arguments is that the gank to tank ratio will go to the later making solo/piracy pvp increasingly difficult. For thoughs who dont know that af's can kill and are killing bc's even with neuts applied, i am now stating this facted, and making t1 frigs like af's jsut seems crazy to me, and dont get me started on the af's. if tanks increase then in most cases you will need mroe than 1 ship to do this, meaning more small gangs/large/blobs even more common, then at a certain point it will jsut be the most people and tank online etc...
Almori	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:57:00 - [37] Originally by: Mason Briggs Edited by: Mason Briggs on 20/08/2009 19:50:08 I can't believe this... I really can't... I've just finished waiting for a month to do material research on a Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I Bluprint... The point of this was to try out exploration and maybe make a few isk also... I just bought a Buzzard that i can't drive yet (will be able to in 6 days), so i couldn't rig it while waiting... And here they come and mess it all up... They take my blueprint and change it to the large version of the rig and crush my dreams ... I just realize I might not be in the right board to complain!!! Cause not only can't I fit it on my ship now but essentially the blueprint is now useless cause who in their right mind would rig a large vessel for exploration. They should have given us a choice or something... Is anyone as mad as me on this one? Is anyone I can complain to make my blueprint for frigates??? So, you're crying because you'll have to pay 10x less to rig your frig? I dont get it... also, your BPO's worth is nothing. it's not like it was a BS BPO ffs. Sooo... stuff?
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:03:00 - [38] Originally by: Mason Briggs Edited by: Mason Briggs on 20/08/2009 19:50:08 I can't believe this... I really can't... I've just finished waiting for a month to do material research on a Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I Bluprint... The point of this was to try out exploration and maybe make a few isk also... I just bought a Buzzard that i can't drive yet (will be able to in 6 days), so i couldn't rig it while waiting... And here they come and mess it all up... They take my blueprint and change it to the large version of the rig and crush my dreams ... I just realize I might not be in the right board to complain!!! Cause not only can't I fit it on my ship now but essentially the blueprint is now useless cause who in their right mind would rig a large vessel for exploration. They should have given us a choice or something... Is anyone as mad as me on this one? Is anyone I can complain to make my blueprint for frigates??? The BPO is worth like 500k. Cry more dawg. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:08:00 - [39] The BPO is about 112k, if I remember correctly. Mine is already researched. I think I'll have it framed, because he is right about one thing: unless they come up with some new hulls with probe bonuses, there will never be any significant demand for large gravcap rigs. There will be large demand for small ones, for all the covert ops and astrometrics frigates. There may be a small demand for medium ones, if some people are using a T3 cruiser as an exploration ship. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Mason Briggs	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:19:00 - [40] Edited by: Mason Briggs on 20/08/2009 20:19:39 Originally by: Almori Originally by: Mason Briggs Edited by: Mason Briggs on 20/08/2009 19:50:08 I can't believe this... I really can't... I've just finished waiting for a month to do material research on a Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I Bluprint... The point of this was to try out exploration and maybe make a few isk also... I just bought a Buzzard that i can't drive yet (will be able to in 6 days), so i couldn't rig it while waiting... And here they come and mess it all up... They take my blueprint and change it to the large version of the rig and crush my dreams ... I just realize I might not be in the right board to complain!!! Cause not only can't I fit it on my ship now but essentially the blueprint is now useless cause who in their right mind would rig a large vessel for exploration. They should have given us a choice or something... Is anyone as mad as me on this one? Is anyone I can complain to make my blueprint for frigates??? So, you're crying because you'll have to pay 10x less to rig your frig? I dont get it... also, your BPO's worth is nothing. it's not like it was a BS BPO ffs. Sooo... stuff? You're not the one with 30 of these things laying around in a hangar collecting dust because no one will buy them!!!

Annie Anomie Gallente Aenigmata	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:22:00 - [41] What my learned colleague is saying is it's a tank boost / increase in TTK across the board. I think I see the point. Mind you, does "can't fit on a ship because it's too expensive" = balanced to begin with?
Mystical Dawn Minmatar Nomadic Angels	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:24:00 - [42] Small rig build costs are about 500k to 1.2 M ISK with current prices..
Edward Mungrelson	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:30:00 - [43] You know, Proxyyyy, you are also allowed to fit rigs :)
Elvis Freeman	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:36:00 - [44] Rig patch is a direct boost to t1 cruiser Rig patch is a direct boost to t1 and t2 frigs
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:37:00 - [45] Originally by: Proxyyyy I would just like to open the floor to people who feel that their are serious down sides to making rigs more affordable... Does it not bother anyone and im speaking to thoughs who enjoy solo pvp mostly. That it will in many cases make destroying ships of frigate af and bc class very difficult increasing the time it would take to destroy them. Enabling a pilot to call for support or in most cases just tank u forever unless neuts where applied but still the argument is the same the engagment would last longer. Not only that it would seem that with added peral involved in such under taking then the only option pilots would be forced to have is flying in small gangs or large fleets to increase the chances of sucess in a short time to gtfo... What i enjoyed about eve pvp that it was fun and fast, you have to react very fast to circumstances and environments that change very rapidly in engagements that lasted within a short time frame. "To me it was like high speed chess" Also pvp in it self is expensive thoughs who fly as much as i do can testify to this. Introducing small rigs increases the cost of pvp by waht seems like to me 30 - 45 %. Now what fool woudnt adapted to new situations, and also buy small rigs to compete with lets say another t1 rifter pilot who in most likely is'nt so *****ed or lacks some sort of want for preservation like most " care bears/mission bears" taht they wudnt tank the fok out of that rifter. many wud make the same assumption, that not rigging your t1 ship "would be fail". I would just like other people's opinion. Obviously its not just about rigs the module it self but, how it affects pvp and how pvp in general seems to be getting nerfed with these "Changes". I fail to see a problem. We will see cheaper ships, and more rigged T1 ships. This is a boost to solo PVP if anything as one can afford to loose shisp more often. Saying enything else is thoughtless. In short: No big effects, at all. Other the somewhat vhepaer ships overall. So maby we will see more PvP (this is a good thing btw)? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:58:00 - [46] Originally by: Proxyyyy But my main arguments are increased cost of pvp, making rigs more afforable forces thoughs who woudnt think of rigging a t1 ship bc and lower are now forced to... I'm not sure I follow. By that logic, someone who just trained a weapons specializing skill for the first time would say, "Well damn. Now I'm forced to use T2, because it's more cost effective." Instead the general sentiment is (and imagine it'll be the same for rigs), "Sweet! Now I can fit that thing, and not go broke." Either way, it's cost you don't get back when your ship blows up, but goes a long way to make sure you don't get blown up in the first place. I'm assuming you don't PVP in T1 ships fit with Meta 0 modules, right? Why not rejoice?
Malcolm Roberts	Posted - 2009.08.20 23:37:00 - [47] Random thoughts: Now much more feasible to fit salvage tacklers to destroyers. Mission Drakes are cheaper for my corpmate who keeps getting them shot out from under him. Ninjas are going to be a lot busier.
Cpt Branko Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.08.21 00:43:00 - [48] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2009 00:44:11 Originally by: Suitonia This. Oh and welcome back Branko, decided to resub recently? Yes, I've got back a week ago or so - finally got enough time to play EVE ;) Anyway, the OP is probably worried about the worse ISK dropped vs ISK cost of ships ratio - but it is not a problem for small ships, tbh. Even BCs, rigged (pre-patch) were generally profitable ships even solo if you were careful enough and bothered to ransom when/if possible. Now it's going to be slightly easier for us. I'd always support better % of modules dropped of course. A new solo player can always get in a cheap anti-frig ship and make solid ISK that way. I've been toying about with a arty thrasher recently to get back in the scheme of things, preety fun killing T2 frigs. Also, tank on sub BC ships is a bit meh nomatter how you rig it (so gank v tank out of balance is not really a concern). Unless it's a Maller or some special bait fit - but those were rigged even before. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Velin Shade	Posted - 2009.08.21 01:05:00 - [49] Originally by: Roland Deschaines 3. He puts CCC on a combat Rifter. Agreed, the Op has no business commenting on pvp matters.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.21 01:11:00 - [50] Is the OP aware that a cap booster allows you to dual SAR tank the Rifter, rigged or no?

Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.08.21 01:21:00 - [51] Originally by: Velin Shade Originally by: Roland Deschaines 3. He puts CCC on a combat Rifter. Agreed, the Op has no business commenting on pvp matters. It makes sense if its in the pure tackle role. I was messing about on the test server with the new rigs and came up with this super low budget fit to tackle neuting bs until the gang arrives. 14 cap per second regen will keep your point and mwd going strong unless his neut cycle hits right before your point cycle but thats just the way it goes. But you can turn the point right back on so as long as he was not aligned and up to speed you will be good to go. [Rifter, Anti-neut] Capacitor Power Relay I Capacitor Power Relay I Capacitor Power Relay I Warp Disruptor II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Phased Monopropellant I Hydrazine Boosters 125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S Rocket Launcher I, Gremlin Rocket Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.21 01:23:00 - [52] Quote: 14 cap per second regen will keep your point and mwd Why would you keep the MWD going?
Tortugan F9X	Posted - 2009.08.21 01:29:00 - [53] How about you all just quit whining and play the f*cking game?
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.08.21 01:46:00 - [54] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: 14 cap per second regen will keep your point and mwd Why would you keep the MWD going? Because you are kiting out at 20ish km and need the high trans to outrun the majority of drone and missile dps. This is not an orbit at 500 with scram fit that dies to a web. Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.21 01:54:00 - [55] Quote: Because you are kiting out at 20ish km and need the high trans to outrun the majority of drone and missile dps. This is not an orbit at 500 with scram fit that dies to a web. Please tell me you're joking. You will take VASTLY MORE damage from missiles with your MWD on. The only drones you can outrun with a Rifter will be mediums...and most any target will put lights on you.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.08.21 02:11:00 - [56] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: Because you are kiting out at 20ish km and need the high trans to outrun the majority of drone and missile dps. This is not an orbit at 500 with scram fit that dies to a web. Please tell me you're joking. You will take VASTLY MORE damage from missiles with your MWD on. The only drones you can outrun with a Rifter will be mediums...and most any target will put lights on you. Worked at the ffa1 where there were plenty of angry bs with drones and missiles galore. Didn't have any issues tanking any of it even with multiple neuts on me. Drakes, cerbs and nighthawks were a bit painful but not enough solo to keep me from holding them for a few minutes. Its was pretty much perma point for any bs I latched onto. Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.21 02:13:00 - [57] Quote: Worked at the ffa1 where there were plenty of angry bs with drones and missiles galore. Didn't have any issues tanking any of it even with multiple neuts on me. Drakes, cerbs and nighthawks were a bit painful but not enough solo to keep me from holding them for a few minutes. Its was pretty much perma point for any bs I latched onto. Irrelevant. You will take more damage from missiles with the MWD active. IF you were tanking the drones, they were probably sending hammerheads or something at you which is loltastic.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.08.21 02:19:00 - [58] Edited by: Davinel Lulinvega on 21/08/2009 02:25:41 Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: Worked at the ffa1 where there were plenty of angry bs with drones and missiles galore. Didn't have any issues tanking any of it even with multiple neuts on me. Drakes, cerbs and nighthawks were a bit painful but not enough solo to keep me from holding them for a few minutes. Its was pretty much perma point for any bs I latched onto. Irrelevant. You will take more damage from missiles with the MWD active. IF you were tanking the drones, they were probably sending hammerheads or something at you which is loltastic. Actually you do take less with mwd on. Unlike guns, the larger sig radius doesn't cancel out the high speed due to the way the missile formula works. Likewise low speed can't make up for tiny sig radius. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.21 02:20:00 - [59] Quote: Actually you do take less with mwd on. Unlike guns, the larger sig radius doesn't cancel out the small speed due to the way the missile formula works. Likewise low speed can't make up for tiny sig radius. Except sig radius is more important than speed with the new missile formula.
techzer0 Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.08.21 02:27:00 - [60] Originally by: Proxyyyy But my main arguments are increased cost of pvp, making rigs more afforable forces thoughs who woudnt think of rigging a t1 ship bc and lower are now forced to, and if anyone of you pvp alot you know this increase would mean less time pvp and more time making isk, than pvp'ing as for rigs everyone knows damage rigs are not even close to as usefull as thoughs that increase tank I.E. speed/active/passive You have no idea how many kills on tank rigged ships I get with damage rigs fit to mine... heck I kill rigged ships with unrigged ones all the time (yay me?) Not gonna change much mate, really ------------ Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>



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