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How the new "Multi-Sized Rigs system" may or may not ruin pvp

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Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.08.21 02:31:00 - [61] Originally by: Kahega Amielden IF you were tanking the drones, they were probably sending hammerheads or something at you which is loltastic. Warriors mostly but they only hit once or twice when they catch up as they immediatly try to orbit and fall behind. Tanked them just fine. Strangely enough the hammerhead II did the most damage as they would hit really hard several times on the approach due to the slower speed but again no real problems tanking it. Remember I'm shooting them to pieces as they close range. But that thermal hole the hammers exploit could be patched up with a thermal resist rig instead of a ccc I guess. Maybe you should try it yourself? Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.08.21 02:35:00 - [62] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: Actually you do take less with mwd on. Unlike guns, the larger sig radius doesn't cancel out the small speed due to the way the missile formula works. Likewise low speed can't make up for tiny sig radius. Except sig radius is more important than speed with the new missile formula. Instead of posting generalizations you could just work through the formula and see that I'm right. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Rumba Purring	Posted - 2009.08.21 04:05:00 - [63] BECAUSE OF BLACKBIRDS! Imagine an EVE universe where every T1 Blackbird cruiser is fitted with 2 ECM strength rigs. Good ECM on the cheap. ------------- Would you be ready if the gravity reversed itself?
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.08.21 04:11:00 - [64] Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: Proxyyyy But my main arguments are increased cost of pvp, making rigs more afforable forces thoughs who woudnt think of rigging a t1 ship bc and lower are now forced to, and if anyone of you pvp alot you know this increase would mean less time pvp and more time making isk, than pvp'ing as for rigs everyone knows damage rigs are not even close to as usefull as thoughs that increase tank I.E. speed/active/passive You have no idea how many kills on tank rigged ships I get with damage rigs fit to mine... heck I kill rigged ships with unrigged ones all the time (yay me?) Not gonna change much mate, really I agree with tech, because he is way more awesome then just about anyone else on the forums. oh and he also happens to be right. and lol, cheaper rigs lead to increased cost in pvp
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.21 05:55:00 - [65] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: Actually you do take less with mwd on. Unlike guns, the larger sig radius doesn't cancel out the small speed due to the way the missile formula works. Likewise low speed can't make up for tiny sig radius. Except sig radius is more important than speed with the new missile formula. Instead of posting generalizations you could just work through the formula and see that I'm right. Confirming that speed of targets is vastly more important than sig for MISSILES. Basically, everything comes default nanod from the getgo.
Niko Takahashi	Posted - 2009.08.21 06:26:00 - [66] Originally by: Hidden Snake Well what is ccp doing wrong that they are killing small gang solo warfare by permanent increase of tank of the ships and nerfing gank. This is strategy to help new players, but it kills the best part of pvp. Lets see what happens with this ¦rig my rifter¦ frenzy now. And what in the world is forcing you not to use the ganky rigs? Was a long time needed change in my opinion and will seee how it works out as CCP said the prices of the rigs will be subject to adjustment. Current state is not set in stone so lets see how it works out before we start run around like headless chikens and whine about it
Niko Takahashi	Posted - 2009.08.21 06:32:00 - [67] Originally by: Rumba Purring BECAUSE OF BLACKBIRDS! Imagine an EVE universe where every T1 Blackbird cruiser is fitted with 2 ECM strength rigs. Good ECM on the cheap. Caldari cruiser 5 check ecm skills check Wohoo
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.21 06:42:00 - [68] Originally by: Niko Takahashi Originally by: Rumba Purring BECAUSE OF BLACKBIRDS! Imagine an EVE universe where every T1 Blackbird cruiser is fitted with 2 ECM strength rigs. Good ECM on the cheap. Caldari cruiser 5 check ecm skills check Wohoo Enemy using new faction implants that give a +75 % sensor strength bonus, check.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.08.21 06:46:00 - [69] Originally by: Niko Takahashi Originally by: Rumba Purring BECAUSE OF BLACKBIRDS! Imagine an EVE universe where every T1 Blackbird cruiser is fitted with 2 ECM strength rigs. Good ECM on the cheap. Caldari cruiser 5 check ecm skills check Wohoo Indeed. Despite what techzer0 correctly said about people already generally using rigs in pvp I think this will usher in everybody using rigs on all ships at all times. I mean the bill of materials is so lulz low on small and medium rigs you could probably rig up several ships off one level 4 missions salvage. That out of the box neut resistant rifter fit is just the beggining of the toy box ccp has opened for us to play with. Td rifters with tracking diagnostic rigs anyone or arbitrators with a full rack of egress port maximisers to make them truely a budget curse? The potential is endless atm. Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Allaera Caldari Star Phukkers Incorporated	Posted - 2009.08.21 09:24:00 - [70] Edited by: Allaera on 21/08/2009 09:26:04 OP, I really don't see cheaper rigs being an issue. I mean, pre-patch, did you know with absolute certainty that a ship you engaged was rigged or not? I'll bet the answer is no. Now, however, you can more than likely guarantee that ANY ship you come across will be rigged and, as such, you now have more options to fit/rig accordingly. Now I think about it there will be so many options now that there is still NO absolute certainty as to what you will be facing so, strictly speaking, not a damn thing will have changed. In closing may I offer this piece of advice?.... Adapt or die!! *edited for spellamerization

H3llHound Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.08.21 09:30:00 - [71] Originally by: Mason Briggs You're not the one with 30 of these things laying around in a hangar collecting dust because no one will buy them!!! OMG if only there was a thing called reprocessing it would save me from making useless posts.
0zimandius The Nietzian Way	Posted - 2009.08.21 11:09:00 - [72] were BSs not dead enough? i guess add this to the ever growing list of pointless development. thx 0zi with a zero
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.21 11:42:00 - [73] Originally by: Niko Takahashi Originally by: Hidden Snake Well what is ccp doing wrong that they are killing small gang solo warfare by permanent increase of tank of the ships and nerfing gank. This is strategy to help new players, but it kills the best part of pvp. Lets see what happens with this ¦rig my rifter¦ frenzy now. And what in the world is forcing you not to use the ganky rigs? Was a long time needed change in my opinion and will seee how it works out as CCP said the prices of the rigs will be subject to adjustment. Current state is not set in stone so lets see how it works out before we start run around like headless chikens and whine about it The fact tah weapon rigs are nearly worthless and help nothign inprove offensiveness of ships. They are pathetic 10% bonuses that are stack nerfed against 10+10% bonuses damage mods. Also the weapon rigs make harder to fit top tier guns.. reducing the dps... (coutner intuitive huh?) On other hand tankign rigs like trimarks are not stack nerfed at all and the active tank rigs do not compete with any NORMAL module. THerefore rigs massively boost defense while adding NOTHING to offensive. CCP should rethink a lot of things. First Weapon rigs must be done MUCH more interesting. Make things with REAL bonuses and penalties. Like 20% ROF bonus but with a 15% TRACKING penalty. THings liek 25% DAMAGE bonus but with a 10% ROF penalty.. That OR make them not stack nerfed against modules (only rig-rig stack nerfing) ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Sergeant Shafto Caldari BulletProof Monks Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.08.21 12:15:00 - [74] Edited by: Sergeant Shafto on 21/08/2009 12:16:23 lol to people saying this makes pvp MORE expensive! Any even semi-serious pvper already had to rig all BCs, HACs, BS, CS etc etc. The only things that aren't usually rigged, which now will be, are intys and AFs. Overall, this means that PvP is much cheaper since rigging BCs and HACs took up a lot of PvP's cost. Large rig prices may also drop since demand for them will drop massively now only BS sized ships will need them. That would mean rigged BS prices will remain either roughly the same or will drop too. If you PvP in t1 frigs and cruisers then you were already PvPing incredibly cheaply and limiting yourself, mostly, to targetting other small and cheap ships and this won't change. Moreover, if you feel you are forced to rig your t1 frigs and cruisers now to compete with other t1 frigs and cruiser, the rigs you have to buy are stupidly cheap anyway! Especially small rigs which will cost less than 1 mil. So basically: PvP will barely change, the major thing that will change is that the cost of PvP will drop since rigging ships will be far cheaper. The only people who would complain about this are stupidly rich elitists who don't want others to be able to afford more PvP than they previously could.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum Pax Romana Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.21 13:09:00 - [75] Edited by: Gartel Reiman on 21/08/2009 13:10:42 Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Unlike guns, the larger sig radius doesn't cancel out the high speed due to the way the missile formula works. Likewise low speed can't make up for tiny sig radius. Originally by: Soporo Confirming that speed of targets is vastly more important than sig for MISSILES. Neither of these are really true. The only time that speed appears in the formula, it's divided by sig. So if you're travelling 5 times as fast with 5 times the sig, you'll get no damage reduction from your speed. In this sense missile damage does work the same as guns regarding outrunning the damage. It does mean that typically you'll get a little more damage mitigation with the MWD on, due to the effects of the Acceleration Control skill. However, depending on the missile it may be the case that the majority of your damage reduction previously came from your low sig, which was an absolute measurement. Thus you lose this regardless and probably gain only a tiny bit of "speed tanking"; probably a net loss overall (i.e. you take more damage). Edit: I was going to run the numbers for heavy/cruise missiles vs. a Rifter, but without EFT here actually applying skills to the explosion velocities/ship velocity/etc. is tedius. Thus I leave it as an exercise for the reader.
Lyris Nairn Caldari Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2009.08.21 13:30:00 - [76] Hi, I came in here to say this: when I read the OP's title, How the new "Multi-Sized Rigs system" may or may not ruin pvp, this was translated in my mind to, I have no clue how the new "Multi-Sized Rigs system" will affect pvp. With that in mind, I didn't even bother to read the OP. Quick word of advice: if you have an opinion to state (which perhaps you don't), it does not present a very convincing argument to him-haw around it with your post's title being ambiguous at best and expressive of your complete ignorance on the issue at worst. Thank you everyone else for your time. -- "Quite possibly the nicest person who'd ever want to kill you."
Cearain	Posted - 2009.08.21 14:22:00 - [77] The more I mess around with eft and simple tech 1 frigates the more I tend to see the ops point and what Kagura Nikon is saying. I don't care about the increase cost of fitting frigs if the rigs cost indeed ends up where ccp hopes. However, 1on1 frig fights may be pointless. With that rifter tanking 60 dps (with not allot of skills required I might add) its going to be hard to fit another t1 frigate that can take it down before downtime. The same seems to be for the case for punishers and other commonly used frigs. I'm not a that experienced a player but I'm not seeing what gank rigs are going to do more good than the tank rigs. (In other words going with the gank rigs just insures you won't win the solo fight) So indeed the chances of getting solo fights (at least with t1 frigs) that can end before downtime may become a thing of the past. We can't predict the future but I think CCP should watch for this. But I will still say that even if this ends up being the case, I think they should keep the cheaper small rigs and do other tweaks to increase gank.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.08.21 14:28:00 - [78] Originally by: Gartel Reiman Edited by: Gartel Reiman on 21/08/2009 13:10:42 Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Unlike guns, the larger sig radius doesn't cancel out the high speed due to the way the missile formula works. Likewise low speed can't make up for tiny sig radius. Originally by: Soporo Confirming that speed of targets is vastly more important than sig for MISSILES. Neither of these are really true. The only time that speed appears in the formula, it's divided by sig. So if you're travelling 5 times as fast with 5 times the sig, you'll get no damage reduction from your speed. In this sense missile damage does work the same as guns regarding outrunning the damage. It does mean that typically you'll get a little more damage mitigation with the MWD on, due to the effects of the Acceleration Control skill. However, depending on the missile it may be the case that the majority of your damage reduction previously came from your low sig, which was an absolute measurement. Thus you lose this regardless and probably gain only a tiny bit of "speed tanking"; probably a net loss overall (i.e. you take more damage). Edit: I was going to run the numbers for heavy/cruise missiles vs. a Rifter, but without EFT here actually applying skills to the explosion velocities/ship velocity/etc. is tedius. Thus I leave it as an exercise for the reader. Once again, work through the formula yourself instead of making generalizations. I will admit that I did make one mistake in my original post. Larger sig actually can make up for small speed, but low speed cannot make up for small sig. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Proxyyyy Caldari Aenigmata	Posted - 2009.08.21 15:03:00 - [79] Edited by: Proxyyyy on 21/08/2009 15:04:10 It seem i always have to explain myself again. Competition driving force behind innovation, one person lowers their price others follow to compete. More so for eve cause thier is not what econoist like to call value added, every module is made to a quality of and dimision that make the indisguisable from others made the deferring parties. For example; a (Pink damage controle 2) may cost more than a regular none colored damage control Now this isnt anything new or a rare its seen everywhere in the world today. If one person buys these cheap rigs which are way more accessible it actually raises the cost associated with pvp, its like if prada made a low end hand bag for poor people which is 300 compared to 1000 it may seem like you are saving money but realy if you wudnt think about buying it before cause of cost that would cost you nothing cause its not worth it at its current price your savings are 100% while now they made a more accessible version of said brand the savings are more like 70% you spent money where before you wouldnt. At current market prices in (Rens) t1 rigs have a (cost/building associated rigs) of around 600, 000 this is a fact. Now i base this on current component/market prices in rens, what the end products mark up will be i dont know but im lets say im supposing most people who pvp build their own rigs = /. Then the cost increase like i said will be around 30 - 45% so essence they have increased the cost of pvp. people will have to put small rigs to compete or they fail...
Proxyyyy Caldari Aenigmata	Posted - 2009.08.21 15:17:00 - [80] Ok Like i said before these changes will not affect cruisers or bs class they will most likely remain the same it will just make flying cruiser i.e. none drone/missile boats fail and allow t1 frigates to increase their ability to kill ships bc and bellow... The t1 cruiser class is the hardest to fly cause bs and below can track them and frigates can run under their tracking thanks to the web nerf... Meh to thoughs who hav flown rifters solo low and null sec and hav killed t2 inties t1 frigates and t1 cruisers given time, you would know cap is a prob with webs applied med drones can indeed track u and catch hit you nuets can be ****ed too. Even duel repped with cap injecter small nos and ccc the setup is not cap stable so one without ccc will be even less cap stable i know this cause ive tried the setup multiple times and its a lot of mirco'ing cap turning stuff off and on while scaning for the pwn to com = / and i primarly use it to fight t2 frigs and t1 destroyers... So now with this new system in place a general rifter fit that did cost around 6 - 8 mill now cost 9 - 11 mill, now tell me that isnt an increase in cost to pvp... Also i dont rig t1 stuff and laugh at the dudes i pwn who do and fail makes the ownage even mroe funny yes people rig their t1 stuff but it isnt the norm and is looked down on. Rigging t1 stuff bc and above being the acception of course, but now thanks to these "change" rigging t1 cruiser and below will be the norm "shoot im gunna do it too, got my bluprints and making them right now = )"

Cearain	Posted - 2009.08.21 15:22:00 - [81] Edited by: Cearain on 21/08/2009 15:22:40 Proxyyy I guardedly agree with your second to last post. It may make flying frigs more expensive - assuming you intend to use it on solo fights. If you are just using it in a fleet I'm not sure I would rig it. But the cost of a tech1 frig is still pretty low even if you do add 3 mill for rigs. But also consider that many who now fly BS's might start flying BCs. This would make for somewhat less costly pvp. In the end though I do suspect your right that this will be somewhat of an isk sink. But that may be good for the overall economy and eve, I don't know. A pirate may be thinking the costs of flying ship just went up but the rigs canÆt be recovered as loot. If this is a problem ccp can do things like have less loot destroyed when a ship is blown up. I really don't know enough to comment on what is good or bad for the eve economy but there are likely many other fixes besides making rigs too expensive for most ships.
dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2009.08.21 15:30:00 - [82] Sorry, Proxxxyy, I disagree. Except the super tanks, like Drakes, which ahve always been rigged, small ship combat is still fast and furious. I've fought rigged Rifters pre-patch. Beat one, but that was failfit, but they still went down fast. I always rigged my assault sihps. I see no real difference, honestly. --Don't feed trolls.
dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2009.08.21 15:33:00 - [83] Originally by: Kagura Nikon CCP should rethink a lot of things. First Weapon rigs must be done MUCH more interesting. Make things with REAL bonuses and penalties. Like 20% ROF bonus but with a 15% TRACKING penalty. THings liek 25% DAMAGE bonus but with a 10% ROF penalty.. That OR make them not stack nerfed against modules (only rig-rig stack nerfing) They alraedy stated they are reworking the weapon rigs. --Don't feed trolls.
Per Vert Codito Ergo Sum	Posted - 2009.08.21 15:46:00 - [84] So let me get this right. Your crying because the carebear rifter you wanna gank in a belt has 45% more shields? Sorry, I guess this patch negatively impacts your playstyle, you amazing pvper.
Flinchey Amarr	Posted - 2009.08.21 15:47:00 - [85] wtb less price gouging seriously. it's NOT costing you 4m isk to make a t1 small rig, dont price it like that you greedy f****s ED: in fact, i might as well get in on this, 100k isk for a 2m sell probably , why not ;)
Proxyyyy Caldari Aenigmata	Posted - 2009.08.21 16:23:00 - [86] Edited by: Proxyyyy on 21/08/2009 16:23:39 First off all dibble damn U!!!!!!!!!!!!!! naw jking mind u i already know this wont affect us cause we are not short on isk, rofl u even more i wud think so flying around with ur tengu = ) i hope somone reads this and bloows it up = ) Again this has nothing to do with large/blobs fleets hi sec wars, people that engage in these activities dont even com close to pvp'ing as most in low sec do.. Not only am i in the minmatar milltia i also pirate so i do the blob thing for easy kills and if i want increased quality of fights i go solo/piracy. Now many people who know me will tell you i pvp alot 12 hours a day and cost is a concerns me even though i have alot of money, im by far not the only one that pvp's that much... "STARTING RANT NOW" Manufactures and missioners have been boasted so many times that i always find it crazy that they com on other threads tryna flame a thread that wud like to boast a part of the game that a minority in game enjoys pirates/mercs if they still around = / and fw. "Rant DONE" What is the issue here, like most in low sec and null sec i want more players leaving hi/sec and coming to low/sec. I would like more and new players becoming pirates/mercs/privateers and joing fw, this is about protecting pvp cause im not the only one realizing that its getting worse and worse. Im concerned that for newer players the cost of pvp went up, which means less time learning the art and enjoying it. The fact that the dudes that talk about pvp on forums only every realy did it in a fleet and dont know that t1 frigs are beating taranis's and other interceptors beacause of the scram boast. they dont or cant believe its possible for a t1 frigate to beat a t2 hac LULZ they dont know that in most cases its better to fly a t1 counter part that t2 well atleast more cost affective. destroyers are still considerd garbage but thrashers hav been pwning t2 frigs for a while now in most cases realy only in large fleets its better to fly a destroyer than an assault ship. Same with cruisers ruptures and hav been pwning hacs/recons for a while now and thats not saying much when u catch them = / Pvp is fun at times hard most of the time and exciting you that you couldnt imaging jsut by reading and hearing about it, Solo pvp is like a club for the elite which is fun i guess = / but so little people realy do it you become a rarity in a game where most people do the others profession or hav done it at one point. Most manufactures and pilots that have done the whole boring 0.0 thing have ended their eve careers in low sec pirating and being mercs jsut pvp'ing in general and will telll you that they should have done it from the beginning. The title of this thread wasnt as over the top as i was first gunna write it at first i was gunna vent but then i was like u know its a forum and this is my first thread made ever on these boards cause i dont do the forum thing and before this thread i only posted 3 times ever before this. when i was thinking bout making this thread at first i thought i was jsut angry and maybe crazy but turns out im not and other people see it = )
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.21 16:24:00 - [87] Quote: seriously. it's NOT costing you 4m isk to make a t1 small rig, dont price it like that you greedy f**s supply and demand. If you don't want to pay 4m ISK for a small rig, don't **ing pay 4m ISK for a small rig. Go without for a few hours while prices stabilize or just grab the BPO and build it yourself.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.21 16:43:00 - [88] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: seriously. it's NOT costing you 4m isk to make a t1 small rig, dont price it like that you greedy f**s supply and demand. If you don't want to pay 4m ISK for a small rig, don't **ing pay 4m ISK for a small rig. Go without for a few hours while prices stabilize or just grab the BPO and build it yourself. Bollox. Since all rig sized use the same mats, the prices are going to scale almost completely linearly. If they don't, people will buy their own BPOs for 200k isk and make their own rigs until prices drop in line. The only way we have 4m isk small rigs is if BS sized trimarks become 60-70m There are FAR too many mission runners for this to happen. The biggest price hike would be ~10% tops. Demand will go up, but the increase in materials will be minuscule.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.21 17:04:00 - [89] Quote: Bollox. Since all rig sized use the same mats, the prices are going to scale almost completely linearly. If they don't, people will buy their own BPOs for 200k isk and make their own rigs until prices drop in line. Prices are determined by supply and demand, not just production cost. They sell for what people will pay for them, not just above what it costs to produce them. Quote: The only way we have 4m isk small rigs is if BS sized trimarks become 60-70m Irrelevant. If people will pay 4m ISK for a small trimark then they will sell for 4m. Take an economics class.
Cpt Branko Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.08.21 17:19:00 - [90] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2009 17:19:08 Originally by: Kahega Amielden Irrelevant. If people will pay 4m ISK for a small trimark then they will sell for 4m. Take an economics class. Fail on two counts. (a) With 11ty billion competitors and no cartel or legislation to prevent dumping prices, they will sell for production cost + small margin, much like all T1 items. (b) It takes just a few clicks to produce these rigs far cheaper, so people have no incentive to pay 4M ISK when it takes about 15 minutes of industry skills to do better. You will note that in EVE after prices stabilize on a item, it is always cheaper to buy off the market then produce with level 1 industry skills and materials off the market. RL economics fails to apply to non-T1 costs, because production is not such a trivial business that anyone with half a brain and two spare seconds can do. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint



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