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[Proposal] Replace Kinetic Missile Bonus with r.o.f or Damage Bonus.

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Pian Shu Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Tread Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.02 23:42:00 - [31] Edited by: Pian Shu on 02/09/2009 23:42:30 Originally by: Dav Varan If the sac is fine then the same bonuses can be applied to Caldari missiles boats without issue. Things do not have to be the same to be balanced. The Sacrilege also has no range bonus which limits the usefulness of it's Heavy Assault Missiles. Note also that it does not gain a bonus to Heavy Missiles (Which have a very long range, and which have long-range ammunition that does as much damage as its close-range ammunition). You can't pick one example and hold it up as a shining beacon of light and knowledge all by itself; look at all of the ships in relation to one another. The Ishkur has drones and it is accepted as balanced; why don't all assault frigates get drones? All assault frigates should get drones and they will all be balanced. Heck, why am I arguing? Please make my missile boats more powerful.
Yaay Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.02 23:52:00 - [32] The reason you feel missile boats are sub par is because you don't understand how to use missiles, not because the weapon itself is lacking. Missiles get many bonuses that the other 3 races do not. Missiles always hit, even if for little damage, they always hit. On ships of even size and larger, that advantage becomes more pronounced when tracking fails. Missiles also get more average range and consistent damage at all ranges where as turret ships have to swap down to lower dps ammo and Less varied damage on those ammos. Lastly, Missile boats do consistently better damage or near equivalent damage to their turret counterparts if you compare apples to apples. You can't for instance compare a heavy launcher cerb to a blaster Deimos because one is set for range, the other for CC. Add to all of that the fact that missiles get 4 flavors of damage, you're always likely to get the best damage results shot for shot if you understand statistics. For instance, you say to use EXP ammo on armor tankers.... that's actually not true. Depending on the class, ship and platform on that ship, there are different ammo's to choose each time. Regional affects also matter. If I go to war with someone in caldari space, I'm likely to have a different ammo in than if I go to war with someone in amarr space. Why? Because there's already an inherent chance that they're not even fit for pvp, which means there a high likelyhood that they're tanked a certain way. Knowing where and when to use what type of ammo gives you that extra advantage. Gal, Min, Amarr, none of them with the exception of drone or missle boats get that same luxury. The only issue missles really have atm is their damage vs speed. Even ships like the nighthawk, that get bonuses to cope with this struggle a lot with even mild speed. DD changes Docking PVP games
Mr Intel	Posted - 2009.09.02 23:57:00 - [33] /support - because missiles need some love. Already low paper DPS, plus damage reduction from anything not webbed make it (theoretically speaking) the lowest DPS in the game, and almost unviable in PvP, plus drones can do the same job almost as well. /no support - as aforementioned, racial bonus problems. Plus any PvP'er worth his weight knows that paper DPS means nothing in the world of EVE, as it assumes perfect conditions. All in all, i have used both missiles and turrets in PvP, and they both have their problems. Im no great war hero but seems to me that kinetic damage would only have a great impact on T1 PvP. Most T2 fits ive seen have had strong omni-tanks. (command ship for small gang warfare. 90% resists ftw) /flame away
Yaay Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.03 00:19:00 - [34] Edited by: Yaay on 03/09/2009 00:21:24 Originally by: Mr Intel /support - because missiles need some love. Already low paper DPS, plus damage reduction from anything not webbed make it (theoretically speaking) the lowest DPS in the game, and almost unviable in PvP, plus drones can do the same job almost as well. /no support - as aforementioned, racial bonus problems. Plus any PvP'er worth his weight knows that paper DPS means nothing in the world of EVE, as it assumes perfect conditions. All in all, i have used both missiles and turrets in PvP, and they both have their problems. Im no great war hero but seems to me that kinetic damage would only have a great impact on T1 PvP. Most T2 fits ive seen have had strong omni-tanks. (command ship for small gang warfare. 90% resists ftw) /flame away Cerb can get 550 DPS from 0 to 41km with heavy assaults and kinetic rage. Or it can do 440dps with any other damage type. Deimos can get 635dps at 3.4 optimally and can hit out to 8.1 with falloff or it can do 499dps at 4.9 with a max range of 17.6 (not even half of the cerbs range) To that, the diemos has to consider tracking and only 2 damage types. The one saving grace the deimos has is it's drones, which can add another 158dps tops if you've trained those skills also, but can be shot down, smart bombed, lost and forgotten or whatever else. Deimos has to give up 3 slots in it's tanking zone to do that damage. Cerb has to give up 3 slots not in it's tanking section. Explain to me where the problem is with those 2 ships. 2 unique platforms that complement each other with strengths and weaknesses. Missles fill a role, part of that role is racial kinetic damage for certain ships. Live with it. DD changes Docking PVP games
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.03 00:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Dav Varan Originally by: Tortugan Oh hey- another 'boost my race because I suck so much it's the only chance I have' thread. No. personal attacks are not arguements for against a topic and btw My combat ranking = 366 You combat ranking = 2,639 So really who sucks ? So who should be the one complaining? I could care less about 'combat ranking' I play eve to shoot stuff and be shot at. As I've said on just about every other buff thread- quit f*cking whining and play the game. This forum is here for game development ideas- not rebalances. While I salute CCP for coming up with the idea for the CSM, I want to slap them for succumbing to the 80,000 whiners posting thread after thread asking for their race to be buffed. Shut the hell up and play the game. :D Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Mr Intel	Posted - 2009.09.03 00:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Yaay Edited by: Yaay on 03/09/2009 00:21:24 Originally by: Mr Intel /support - because missiles need some love. Already low paper DPS, plus damage reduction from anything not webbed make it (theoretically speaking) the lowest DPS in the game, and almost unviable in PvP, plus drones can do the same job almost as well. /no support - as aforementioned, racial bonus problems. Plus any PvP'er worth his weight knows that paper DPS means nothing in the world of EVE, as it assumes perfect conditions. All in all, i have used both missiles and turrets in PvP, and they both have their problems. Im no great war hero but seems to me that kinetic damage would only have a great impact on T1 PvP. Most T2 fits ive seen have had strong omni-tanks. (command ship for small gang warfare. 90% resists ftw) /flame away Cerb can get 550 DPS from 0 to 41km with heavy assaults and kinetic rage. Or it can do 440dps with any other damage type. Deimos can get 635dps at 3.4 optimally and can hit out to 8.1 with falloff or it can do 499dps at 4.9 with a max range of 17.6 (not even half of the cerbs range) To that, the diemos has to consider tracking and only 2 damage types. The one saving grace the deimos has is it's drones, which can add another 158dps tops if you've trained those skills also, but can be shot down, smart bombed, lost and forgotten or whatever else. Deimos has to give up 3 slots in it's tanking zone to do that damage. Cerb has to give up 3 slots not in it's tanking section. Explain to me where the problem is with those 2 ships. 2 unique platforms that complement each other with strengths and weaknesses. Missles fill a role, part of that role is racial kinetic damage for certain ships. Live with it. My response to that would be: I would still put my money on the deimos. 3 possible situations in a 1v1 (which almost never happens anyway) Cerb tackles Deimos -> Deimos is already in tackle range and counter tackles -> deimos wins due to higher DPS assuming same e-hp, tanking, and all lvl 5 skills Deimos tackles Cerb -> Deimos in optimal and does higher DPS -> Cerb tries to run and cannot due to bieng tackled by Deimos Cerb at optimal and engages deimos -> Deimos warps out due to no tackle at that big of a range -> cat and mouse game ensues with either pilot getting blown up, or logging due to boredom Side note: why are we arguing about 2 different ships? Different stratagies and gang tactics to both of them. Caldari and Gallante pitted against eachother, as always.
Allen Ramses Caldari Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.03 01:53:00 - [37] I agree that kinetic missiles being the only bonus on Caldari ships sucks, but what you are proposing is not the way to fix the issue. A more reasonable solution would be for missiles to have more than one damage type. For example, a missile can deal 25% kinetic and 75% damage specific, giving kinetic missiles 100% kinetic damage. This would keep Caldari the kinetic race, but also allow for a more uniform damage increase. That is the only solution I can see for an issue such as this. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
Mistress Templar	Posted - 2009.09.03 06:20:00 - [38] I want Amarr ships to fire explosive, kinetic and thermal (more of it) laser beams!!!!!111!!111 Seriously, missiles do not have a optimal range and you can drive right up the face of another ship and torp it to death. Or cruise him from afar, even with my ****ty missile skills, my cruisies can reach out and smack someone at 200km+ or come close and torp them at <30km. On top of hitting your target 24/7 with no minimal range and a range my apocalypse struggles to match is the flexibility that missiles offers. What's that? he's down to armour? Switch to Expl or Kin or Therm or EM. Gallente, Minmatars and Amarr are restricted to Exp, Therm/Kin, EM/Therm. Caldari has access to all 4 with amazing range and no tracking. Wishing his Abaddon can shoot explosive and kinetic laser beams, Stormie.
irion felpamy Minmatar HellJumpers Corp Indecisive Certainty	Posted - 2009.09.03 08:45:00 - [39] If you think missiles currently need this buff do us a favour and go fly a missile boat or even better get on the wrong end of one.
Carniflex Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.09.03 09:40:00 - [40]
Drichter	Posted - 2009.09.03 11:16:00 - [41] No. Because that would mean i always "have" to take all Missle-Damage-Types with me and test what Dmg Type is the best ... would take too long in a pvp-scenario. With bonus to one dmg-type i just carry 2 or max 3 dmg types with me. And i at least get the feeling that although kinetic may not be the best, it's not the worst either because of dmg-bonus. Also, every race is somehow predictable what damagetype they'll deal. From a megathron i only expect kinetic and thermal, from zealot em and thermal, vagabond mostly explosive ... and from Caldari it's kinetic. But while the other races have to stick with their damagetype, caldari can switch to something different. If u want to change something about Caldari weapons, complain about Rockets.
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2009.09.03 11:28:00 - [42] While I do not agree with the OP, I found this very interesting: Originally by: Lili Lu How about if kinetic missiles as a class had a better max velocity? Wouldn't that make them more useful for pvp, and take more advantage of the Caldari kinetic bonus (as well as being scientifcally consistent). Then explo missiles could have better stat for explo radius, em missiles better stat for explo velocity, and thermal a slightly better base damage. This would make missiles similar to drones, particularly as to sentry drones and light drones, where the type to use has factors beyond the damage type. So if you want slightly better range or speed to target and the benefit of the kinetic damage bonus use kinetic. If range or speed to target is not an issue you have a second damage option, thermal. If the speed or sig radius of the target is an issue . . . Perhaps not balanced in the way suggested here, but more flavour to the different types of missiles sounds awesome.
Terra Mikael Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.09.03 12:37:00 - [43] Fly Khanid. Problem solved.
Black Sunder	Posted - 2009.09.03 13:53:00 - [44] Not supported.
Dav Varan	Posted - 2009.09.03 14:12:00 - [45] Originally by: Drichter No. Because that would mean i always "have" to take all Missle-Damage-Types with me and test what Dmg Type is the best ... would take too long in a pvp-scenario. With bonus to one dmg-type i just carry 2 or max 3 dmg types with me. And i at least get the feeling that although kinetic may not be the best, it's not the worst either because of dmg-bonus. Also, every race is somehow predictable what damagetype they'll deal. From a megathron i only expect kinetic and thermal, from zealot em and thermal, vagabond mostly explosive ... and from Caldari it's kinetic. But while the other races have to stick with their damagetype, caldari can switch to something different. If u want to change something about Caldari weapons, complain about Rockets. You say you carry 2 , 3 damage types ? your happy that you lose your damage bonus when you switch ammo ? when this doesnt happen to any other ship than a Caldari missile Boat ?
Dav Varan	Posted - 2009.09.03 14:16:00 - [46] Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: Dav Varan Originally by: Tortugan Oh hey- another 'boost my race because I suck so much it's the only chance I have' thread. No. personal attacks are not arguements for against a topic and btw My combat ranking = 366 You combat ranking = 2,639 So really who sucks ? So who should be the one complaining? I could care less about 'combat ranking' I play eve to shoot stuff and be shot at. As I've said on just about every other buff thread- quit f*cking whining and play the game. This forum is here for game development ideas- not rebalances. While I salute CCP for coming up with the idea for the CSM, I want to slap them for succumbing to the 80,000 whiners posting thread after thread asking for their race to be buffed. Shut the hell up and play the game. I fly all races , I'd like to fly CMB's but I cant because they have bonuses which are incompatible with there combat tactics.
Dav Varan	Posted - 2009.09.03 14:28:00 - [47] Originally by: Terra Mikael Fly Khanid. Problem solved. I can and do fly khanid. It doesnt solve the problem that CMB's have damage bonuses incompatible with there combat tactics.
Dav Varan	Posted - 2009.09.03 14:33:00 - [48] Originally by: Yaay Edited by: Yaay on 03/09/2009 00:21:24 Originally by: Mr Intel /support - because missiles need some love. Already low paper DPS, plus damage reduction from anything not webbed make it (theoretically speaking) the lowest DPS in the game, and almost unviable in PvP, plus drones can do the same job almost as well. /no support - as aforementioned, racial bonus problems. Plus any PvP'er worth his weight knows that paper DPS means nothing in the world of EVE, as it assumes perfect conditions. All in all, i have used both missiles and turrets in PvP, and they both have their problems. Im no great war hero but seems to me that kinetic damage would only have a great impact on T1 PvP. Most T2 fits ive seen have had strong omni-tanks. (command ship for small gang warfare. 90% resists ftw) /flame away Cerb can get 550 DPS from 0 to 41km with heavy assaults and kinetic rage. Or it can do 440dps with any other damage type. Deimos can get 635dps at 3.4 optimally and can hit out to 8.1 with falloff or it can do 499dps at 4.9 with a max range of 17.6 (not even half of the cerbs range) To that, the diemos has to consider tracking and only 2 damage types. The one saving grace the deimos has is it's drones, which can add another 158dps tops if you've trained those skills also, but can be shot down, smart bombed, lost and forgotten or whatever else. Deimos has to give up 3 slots in it's tanking zone to do that damage. Cerb has to give up 3 slots not in it's tanking section. Explain to me where the problem is with those 2 ships. 2 unique platforms that complement each other with strengths and weaknesses. Missles fill a role, part of that role is racial kinetic damage for certain ships. Live with it. Your completelly missing the point. This is not about ship x verus ship y This is about player x versus player y Where player y has trained level 5 and player x has only trained level 1 Take a caracal as an example. Put 2 pilots against one another. All other skills and mods are equal. Player x has caldari cruiser 2 , player y has caldari cruiser 5 Who wins that fight ? youd think it should be player y who has done 20 days extra training, but thats not so its actually a draw as they both have to use em missiles. so nither is fighting with a damage bonus. This only happens with cmb's. The damage bonus is not compatible with the combat tactic. All other races ships that get damage bonuses allways benifit from those bonus.
Dav Varan	Posted - 2009.09.03 14:35:00 - [49] Edited by: Dav Varan on 03/09/2009 14:36:25 Originally by: Mistress Templar I want Amarr ships to fire explosive, kinetic and thermal (more of it) laser beams!!!!!111!!111 Seriously, missiles do not have a optimal range and you can drive right up the face of another ship and torp it to death. Or cruise him from afar, even with my ****ty missile skills, my cruisies can reach out and smack someone at 200km+ or come close and torp them at <30km. On top of hitting your target 24/7 with no minimal range and a range my apocalypse struggles to match is the flexibility that missiles offers. What's that? he's down to armour? Switch to Expl or Kin or Therm or EM. Gallente, Minmatars and Amarr are restricted to Exp, Therm/Kin, EM/Therm. Caldari has access to all 4 with amazing range and no tracking. Wishing his Abaddon can shoot explosive and kinetic laser beams, Stormie. This is not about ship x versus ship y. read the op. You talk about damage switching as and advantage. Yet tou fail to comprehend that a level 5 pilots does not more damage than a level 1 pilot when "the advantage" is used. Sacs are not overpowered , even though they get double damage bonus to all damage types. Why do you think it would make a caracal or cerb overpowered ?
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.03 17:43:00 - [50] The stupidest example is the kestrel (and the inquisitor and breacher) which gets a 10% kinetic bonus and a 5% bonus to the other damage types, meaning you can never take advantage of both hull bonuses at once! But yeah, it does suck that a bunch of Caldari missile ships only get one of their bonuses while using a particular ammo type. Imagine if the Megathron only got its hybrid damage bonus while it was using Uranium rounds, or if the Geddon's rate of fire bonus only worked with Standard crystals loaded. Seeing as the supposed advantage of missile launchers is the ability to swap out damage types, its silly to force the player to sacrifice a hull bonus to do so. Its like arguing that Amarr players do have the ability to do variable damage types after all because they can always choose to take off the lasers and fit artillery!
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2009.09.03 18:11:00 - [51] Edited by: Lili Lu on 03/09/2009 18:15:34 Originally by: Scatim Helicon or if the Geddon's rate of fire bonus only worked with Standard crystals loaded. Seeing as the supposed advantage of missile launchers is the ability to swap out damage types, its silly to force the player to sacrifice a hull bonus to do so. Flawed analogy. Anyway, you appear to not have experienced the wonders of the 10% reduction in cap use on lasers or the piddly 5% rof bonus on the deep in torpor arty which basically make the weapons useable at level 4 and sorta ok at level 5. So you see other races are stuck with one meaningful bonus as well. Additionally, you appear to not have read the entire thread. Originally by: Scatim Helicon Its like arguing that Amarr players do have the ability to do variable damage types after all because they can always choose to take off the lasers and fit artillery! Again flawed analogy. You can't in the middle of a battle ask everyone to wait while you dock up and swap guns instead of simply reloading your already fit launchers.
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2009.09.03 18:13:00 - [52] Originally by: van Uber While I do not agree with the OP, I found this very interesting: Originally by: Lili Lu How about if kinetic missiles as a class had a better max velocity? Wouldn't that make them more useful for pvp, and take more advantage of the Caldari kinetic bonus (as well as being scientifcally consistent). Then explo missiles could have better stat for explo radius, em missiles better stat for explo velocity, and thermal a slightly better base damage. This would make missiles similar to drones, particularly as to sentry drones and light drones, where the type to use has factors beyond the damage type. So if you want slightly better range or speed to target and the benefit of the kinetic damage bonus use kinetic. If range or speed to target is not an issue you have a second damage option, thermal. If the speed or sig radius of the target is an issue . . . Perhaps not balanced in the way suggested here, but more flavour to the different types of missiles sounds awesome. Thanks, I would like this on a Phoon and my alts would like this on their Drakes.
AtheistOfDoom Amarr The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.09.03 20:42:00 - [53] Originally by: Dav Varan You say you carry 2 , 3 damage types ? your happy that you lose your damage bonus when you switch ammo ? when this doesnt happen to any other ship than a Caldari missile Boat ? A zealot with autocannons. Pew Pew Lazorz!!!
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.03 21:49:00 - [54] Originally by: Dav Varan Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: Dav Varan Originally by: Tortugan Oh hey- another 'boost my race because I suck so much it's the only chance I have' thread. No. personal attacks are not arguements for against a topic and btw My combat ranking = 366 You combat ranking = 2,639 So really who sucks ? So who should be the one complaining? I could care less about 'combat ranking' I play eve to shoot stuff and be shot at. As I've said on just about every other buff thread- quit f*cking whining and play the game. This forum is here for game development ideas- not rebalances. While I salute CCP for coming up with the idea for the CSM, I want to slap them for succumbing to the 80,000 whiners posting thread after thread asking for their race to be buffed. Shut the hell up and play the game. I fly all races , I'd like to fly CMB's but I cant because they have bonuses which are incompatible with there combat tactics. And god forbid you might actually have to be CREATIVE to win a fight! :D Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Guru Saurfang Highlanders. Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.09.04 07:22:00 - [55] This is less a issue on how the things should be and more a issue of "I don't use missile anyway because I PVP so let them be as they always were" This thread is not about boosting missiles, is about ship bonuses and the worthiness of training that to level 5. Anyhow supporting or sending the supporter back to missions ain't changing nothing. CCP has a history of implementing changes that were never proposes by the players and complete ignoring others with tens of pages of support posts.
Ap0ll0n Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.09.04 07:44:00 - [56] I support this if i get crystals with kinetic/explo damage. Seriously, kinetic is not a bad damage to deal, and you still have the option to switch ammo type. Being Amarr, your limited to EM/thermal.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.04 11:46:00 - [57] Originally by: Dav Varan I fly all races , I'd like to fly CMB's but I cant because they have bonuses which are incompatible with there combat tactics. Originally by: Dav Varan I can and do fly khanid. It doesnt solve the problem that CMB's have damage bonuses incompatible with there combat tactics. Again you are crying on the tune of: "fix the game to Dav Varan combat tactics, Dav Varan should not adapt his tactics to different ships and weapon systems".
Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2009.09.04 12:01:00 - [58] If the OP is after parity with other races then the solution is to replace Kinetic damage bonus with a generic damage bonus. Then remove all missile types except Kinetic. Simples!
NuclearSi	Posted - 2009.09.04 13:26:00 - [59] I do not find any problem with the damage emphasis on missile ships. It is even more intresting this way, and does not stop me from using these ships, like some ships that suffer from broken weapon systems for real. (rockets, projectiles) Originally by: Dav Varan The Why Missile systems do less raw dps than Guns, to compensate for the above Missile users get to choose damage type so that they can fire against a ships resistance hole. No. They do less raw DPS to compensate for the lack of tracking, range and cap issues. (Hell, you could throw in even locking issues) Kinetic emphasis compensates for that missile ship can choose its damage type. Missiles have so many inherent advantages that you, who never flew other ships, forget that other ships usually have bonii just to try and cover up for these issues. Originally by: Dav Varan Caldari Solo PVP Success Choose any three. Yeah, make drake even better than the best solo pvp bc (with all of these winning 4) out there and I will have to stop flying it, just to not look uncool flying obviously the best ship of its class. Argue if you want, but I am more happy with drake than other BC's. (Yes, I know that sounds like "but you have vaga!", but so what. It always works against minnies.)
Dav Varan	Posted - 2009.09.04 14:13:00 - [60] Originally by: Jackie Fisher If the OP is after parity with other races then the solution is to replace Kinetic damage bonus with a generic damage bonus. Then remove all missile types except Kinetic. Simples! To bring about parity , one of two things should happen. Either no races should have racial damage bonuses or All races should have racial damage bonuses. There is no parity atm. I went through and counted the ships that have Racial damage bonuses There are 18 Caldari ships with racial bonuses 3 Gallente ships with racial bonuses 2 Minmatar ships with racial bonuses 2 Amarr ships with Racial bonuses. Rof & damage to guns are NOT racial bonuses. Lasers do EM/Thermal , Thermal is not Amarr racial damage type , yet Amarr get 5% bonus to this damage type through rof & straight damage bonuses. Hybrids do Thermal/Kinetic , Kinetic is not Gallente racial damage type , yet Gallente get 5% bonus to this damage type through rof & straight damage bonuses. Projectile do all damage types depending on ammo loaded. EM/Thermal and Kinetic are not Minmatar racial damage type , yet Minmatar get 5% bonus to EM/Thermal/Kinetic through rof and damage bonii. Drones do all damage types , Amarr and Gallente boats get 5% or 10% per level to damage types which are not there racial damage types. Now look at the disparity , Caldari do not get any damage bonus on CMB's to anything other than Kinetic. Either Racial damage bonuses should be applied , Gallente only get bonus to Thermal damage they do, Amarr only get bonus to EM damage they do and Mini only get bonuses to Exp they do. or Caldari have there racial damage bonus replaced with a non racial one like the other races currently enjoy.

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