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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.19 12:52:00 -
[1]
If you want your product sales to be region wide you need Visibility 5. If you dont, players will have to dock at the station that your order is at to see it. Consider it like a mom an pops gas station. Unless you see it on the road you wont know it exsits.
This alone will drop mineral prices. A miner will have to sell to a buy order. Otherwise he will have to train upto Procurement IV to get Visibility so he can have players see his sell order.
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.19 12:52:00 -
[2]
If you want your product sales to be region wide you need Visibility 5. If you dont, players will have to dock at the station that your order is at to see it. Consider it like a mom an pops gas station. Unless you see it on the road you wont know it exsits.
This alone will drop mineral prices. A miner will have to sell to a buy order. Otherwise he will have to train upto Procurement IV to get Visibility so he can have players see his sell order.
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:41:00 -
[3]
Since you seem to know a bit....the regular way of selling/buying will remain, correct ? Example...I dock...set market to region...look for "x" item....see one three systems away...buy it...run over and get it ...
The Trade skills are only for space buy/sell orders correct? CCP can't expect none trade people to train these skills to level 5 or even 4 if they are making a fighter only Avatar...
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:41:00 -
[4]
Since you seem to know a bit....the regular way of selling/buying will remain, correct ? Example...I dock...set market to region...look for "x" item....see one three systems away...buy it...run over and get it ...
The Trade skills are only for space buy/sell orders correct? CCP can't expect none trade people to train these skills to level 5 or even 4 if they are making a fighter only Avatar...
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:53:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Vigilant Since you seem to know a bit....the regular way of selling/buying will remain, correct ? Example...I dock...set market to region...look for "x" item....see one three systems away...buy it...run over and get it ...
The Trade skills are only for space buy/sell orders correct? CCP can't expect none trade people to train these skills to level 5 or even 4 if they are making a fighter only Avatar...
Well I am sorry to say yes they made selling alot harder.
If you dock yes you can sell those items within the station on the market for that station if you do not have have Visibility skill.
To sell or buy remotely you need retail for remote sells and procurement for buy skills. You do this thru the asset icon.
Remote sell/buy
Note the station I am in and where I want to sell from. Also note our max will be two weeks. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Vigilant Since you seem to know a bit....the regular way of selling/buying will remain, correct ? Example...I dock...set market to region...look for "x" item....see one three systems away...buy it...run over and get it ...
The Trade skills are only for space buy/sell orders correct? CCP can't expect none trade people to train these skills to level 5 or even 4 if they are making a fighter only Avatar...
Well I am sorry to say yes they made selling alot harder.
If you dock yes you can sell those items within the station on the market for that station if you do not have have Visibility skill.
To sell or buy remotely you need retail for remote sells and procurement for buy skills. You do this thru the asset icon.
Remote sell/buy
Note the station I am in and where I want to sell from. Also note our max will be two weeks. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:00:00 -
[7]
So two weeks max sell order time ? is what i see.....
Basically...if your Vis Skill is not high up (level 4 or 5 ) even in station you will not be able to see the whole region even in station ? Am I presuming correctly ?
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:00:00 -
[8]
So two weeks max sell order time ? is what i see.....
Basically...if your Vis Skill is not high up (level 4 or 5 ) even in station you will not be able to see the whole region even in station ? Am I presuming correctly ?
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:03:00 -
[9]
The players will see only those orders from whom the seller's Visibility skill reaches them. Visibility will work opposite the way our market todays works. Soo the orders that are selling are not controlled by the buyer but by the seller.
The first sentence states "promoting your product" meaning those that are placing sell orders.
Visibility:
Skill at promoting your product effectively. Each level increases a remote sell orderÆs radius of effect from origin. Level 1 allows for range within same solar system, Level 2 extends that range to systems within 5 jumps, and each subsequent level then doubles it. Level 5 allows for a full regional range. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:03:00 -
[10]
The players will see only those orders from whom the seller's Visibility skill reaches them. Visibility will work opposite the way our market todays works. Soo the orders that are selling are not controlled by the buyer but by the seller.
The first sentence states "promoting your product" meaning those that are placing sell orders.
Visibility:
Skill at promoting your product effectively. Each level increases a remote sell orderÆs radius of effect from origin. Level 1 allows for range within same solar system, Level 2 extends that range to systems within 5 jumps, and each subsequent level then doubles it. Level 5 allows for a full regional range. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:07:00 -
[11]
Pretty tough requirements I would say... considering Vis. is 7.5 mill...and requires Procurement at level 4.....and to be good at selling it would seem you would need Vis. at least at level 4 if not 5....
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:07:00 -
[12]
Pretty tough requirements I would say... considering Vis. is 7.5 mill...and requires Procurement at level 4.....and to be good at selling it would seem you would need Vis. at least at level 4 if not 5....
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:18:00 -
[13]
Soo you see then. The market changes will change Eve as we know it.
I feel that most of my orders will be Buys thru out the galaxy and collect it all and sell in a a few regions. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:18:00 -
[14]
Soo you see then. The market changes will change Eve as we know it.
I feel that most of my orders will be Buys thru out the galaxy and collect it all and sell in a a few regions. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Dawnstar
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Posted - 2004.10.19 18:54:00 -
[15]
Yes, this particular tidbit really hasn't gotten the player awareness it needs. Folks, the markets are going to look extremely bare when Shiva hits. Its not going to so much be that there aren't things for sale, as a problem with the buyer not being able to see everything which is up for sale. -D
Proposal for Overhauling Manufacturing. |
Dawnstar
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Posted - 2004.10.19 18:54:00 -
[16]
Yes, this particular tidbit really hasn't gotten the player awareness it needs. Folks, the markets are going to look extremely bare when Shiva hits. Its not going to so much be that there aren't things for sale, as a problem with the buyer not being able to see everything which is up for sale. -D
Proposal for Overhauling Manufacturing. |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.19 19:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dawnstar Yes, this particular tidbit really hasn't gotten the player awareness it needs. Folks, the markets are going to look extremely bare when Shiva hits. Its not going to so much be that there aren't things for sale, as a problem with the buyer not being able to see everything which is up for sale.
They will place buy orders. You wont get to pick and choose what sell your you will buy. Its who makes the best buy order!! A dramatic change to now. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.19 19:05:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dawnstar Yes, this particular tidbit really hasn't gotten the player awareness it needs. Folks, the markets are going to look extremely bare when Shiva hits. Its not going to so much be that there aren't things for sale, as a problem with the buyer not being able to see everything which is up for sale.
They will place buy orders. You wont get to pick and choose what sell your you will buy. Its who makes the best buy order!! A dramatic change to now. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
StaticW
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Posted - 2004.10.20 08:19:00 -
[19]
You still can buy regionwide without skills at the market.
you just cannot place regionwide buy and sell _orders_ without them.
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StaticW
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Posted - 2004.10.20 08:19:00 -
[20]
You still can buy regionwide without skills at the market.
you just cannot place regionwide buy and sell _orders_ without them.
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DX Cancri
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Posted - 2004.10.20 10:40:00 -
[21]
To me that actually seems great, that means that beeing a trader will become a real profession. It will also remove all silly orders from the market.
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DX Cancri
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Posted - 2004.10.20 10:40:00 -
[22]
To me that actually seems great, that means that beeing a trader will become a real profession. It will also remove all silly orders from the market.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.20 12:27:00 -
[23]
Originally by: StaticW You still can buy regionwide without skills at the market.
you just cannot place regionwide buy and sell _orders_ without them.
I placed a bug report if you are talking Shiva! --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.20 12:27:00 -
[24]
Originally by: StaticW You still can buy regionwide without skills at the market.
you just cannot place regionwide buy and sell _orders_ without them.
I placed a bug report if you are talking Shiva! --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
FatSlug
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Posted - 2004.10.21 12:36:00 -
[25]
An interesting point was raised here but not answered ( I don't think ;) ).
What happens to the exisiting buy/sell orders a player has setup? I have quite a few, but I am training the trading skills.
Will they all be removed, or will they stay until they are completed and then the new rules kick in?
"Miners are just shafting the universe..." |
FatSlug
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Posted - 2004.10.21 12:36:00 -
[26]
An interesting point was raised here but not answered ( I don't think ;) ).
What happens to the exisiting buy/sell orders a player has setup? I have quite a few, but I am training the trading skills.
Will they all be removed, or will they stay until they are completed and then the new rules kick in?
"Miners are just shafting the universe..." |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.21 14:03:00 -
[27]
Well that point is soooooo valid. This will be an Dev answer cause its not fair on Shiva now. Those Castor orders are set for 3 months and they dont get taxed and you can daytrade and OMG no escrow on the buys. I believe they will warn and delete orders. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.21 14:03:00 -
[28]
Well that point is soooooo valid. This will be an Dev answer cause its not fair on Shiva now. Those Castor orders are set for 3 months and they dont get taxed and you can daytrade and OMG no escrow on the buys. I believe they will warn and delete orders. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
vanBuskirk
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Posted - 2004.10.21 14:07:00 -
[29]
I could be wrong in a few cases, but I don't think anyone needs visibility 5.
By my calculations, vis 4 gives you a 20-jump range for sell orders. I don't know of any region where there is any point more than 20 jumps from any other.
Just my 0.02 isk. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent". ---------------------------------------------- |
vanBuskirk
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Posted - 2004.10.21 14:07:00 -
[30]
I could be wrong in a few cases, but I don't think anyone needs visibility 5.
By my calculations, vis 4 gives you a 20-jump range for sell orders. I don't know of any region where there is any point more than 20 jumps from any other.
Just my 0.02 isk. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent". ---------------------------------------------- |
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.21 14:35:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Harisdrop on 21/10/2004 17:10:14
Originally by: vanBuskirk I could be wrong in a few cases, but I don't think anyone needs visibility 5.
By my calculations, vis 4 gives you a 20-jump range for sell orders. I don't know of any region where there is any point more than 20 jumps from any other.
Just my 0.02 isk.
[edit} its Actually 0, 5, 10, 20, region. You are correct. I checked the map and the need is upto 20. I found in Syndicate a 18 jump route to be the most. If anyone else knows a larger on tell me.
I have a problem with buy orders.
Buy order remote
Why do I need to have a remote buy if I can select range Region?
I think buy orders should only be station specfic. Where you can place your buy orders thru the region at stations. As it is now with 2852 you can place a buy and have that tax and charges based on the originating station and have the stuff delivered to stations that hate you. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.21 14:35:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Harisdrop on 21/10/2004 17:10:14
Originally by: vanBuskirk I could be wrong in a few cases, but I don't think anyone needs visibility 5.
By my calculations, vis 4 gives you a 20-jump range for sell orders. I don't know of any region where there is any point more than 20 jumps from any other.
Just my 0.02 isk.
[edit} its Actually 0, 5, 10, 20, region. You are correct. I checked the map and the need is upto 20. I found in Syndicate a 18 jump route to be the most. If anyone else knows a larger on tell me.
I have a problem with buy orders.
Buy order remote
Why do I need to have a remote buy if I can select range Region?
I think buy orders should only be station specfic. Where you can place your buy orders thru the region at stations. As it is now with 2852 you can place a buy and have that tax and charges based on the originating station and have the stuff delivered to stations that hate you. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Shootingstar
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Posted - 2004.10.21 16:57:00 -
[33]
Maybe that iam a dumb nut but the Skill description of Visibility is: Visibility:
Skill at promoting your product effectively. Each level increases a remote sell orderÆs radius of effect from origin. Level 1 allows for range within same solar system, Level 2 extends that range to systems within 5 jumps, and each subsequent level then doubles it. Level 5 allows for a full regional range.
Didnt the second sentence mean that only REMOTE sell orders will be effected??? The buy/sell orders today arent remote orders, or am i wrong?
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Shootingstar
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Posted - 2004.10.21 16:57:00 -
[34]
Maybe that iam a dumb nut but the Skill description of Visibility is: Visibility:
Skill at promoting your product effectively. Each level increases a remote sell orderÆs radius of effect from origin. Level 1 allows for range within same solar system, Level 2 extends that range to systems within 5 jumps, and each subsequent level then doubles it. Level 5 allows for a full regional range.
Didnt the second sentence mean that only REMOTE sell orders will be effected??? The buy/sell orders today arent remote orders, or am i wrong?
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.21 17:04:00 -
[35]
The word remote and direct in this skill sense has no difference. The only difference between them is that you dont have to goto a station to place a sell order. The market visibility is based on a skill not how you place the order.
Your orders will be viewed equally from space. The visibility allows others to see your direct/remote orders further out. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.21 17:04:00 -
[36]
The word remote and direct in this skill sense has no difference. The only difference between them is that you dont have to goto a station to place a sell order. The market visibility is based on a skill not how you place the order.
Your orders will be viewed equally from space. The visibility allows others to see your direct/remote orders further out. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Shootingstar
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Posted - 2004.10.21 18:03:00 -
[37]
Are you sure? Where do you get your information from? Do you got it from the SHIVA-Testserver or is it just your opinion?
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Shootingstar
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Posted - 2004.10.21 18:03:00 -
[38]
Are you sure? Where do you get your information from? Do you got it from the SHIVA-Testserver or is it just your opinion?
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.21 18:21:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Harisdrop on 21/10/2004 18:25:02 Shiva. My problem is I have Visibility IV on Shiva soo all my orders are seen. I now have level 4
I guess I need to start an alt....
New CHaracter
Oppps guess not.
I will test this tonight. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.21 18:21:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Harisdrop on 21/10/2004 18:25:02 Shiva. My problem is I have Visibility IV on Shiva soo all my orders are seen. I now have level 4
I guess I need to start an alt....
New CHaracter
Oppps guess not.
I will test this tonight. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.10.21 18:22:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Shevar on 21/10/2004 18:25:23 I thought I would never say this (okok up untill I read about the exact trade skill descriptions a few weeks ago), thank god for escrows...
The main thing this will change is that more stuff will done through that horrible mission escrow system. Not a good change, but ahwell I guess it's tolate to change anything. -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.10.21 18:22:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Shevar on 21/10/2004 18:25:23 I thought I would never say this (okok up untill I read about the exact trade skill descriptions a few weeks ago), thank god for escrows...
The main thing this will change is that more stuff will done through that horrible mission escrow system. Not a good change, but ahwell I guess it's tolate to change anything. -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Ebjelen
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Posted - 2004.10.22 19:06:00 -
[43]
I think what it changes is that some people will have to "specialize" in trading. We already know that the changes in mining will require mining "specialists." How many people take mining to lvl 5 now or astrogeology to lvl 5? Most people can mine. But only a minority top out the skills.
Right now everyone can trade (with other players) at the same level via the NPC market. Do the changes mean that everyone will have to train trade skills? No. Some people will become even more specialized in fighting. SOme will find many more hauling jobs. Some will be more mission oriented. Do you really think anyone can build a station or should that require advance building skills?
True. There are already some players that have lvl 5 in a lot of different skills. But I believe that those players are not the majority. And those that I do know, do not like to play alone. After all, what good is it to have all skills? Save some money building your own stuff to blow up yourself?
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Ebjelen
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Posted - 2004.10.22 19:06:00 -
[44]
I think what it changes is that some people will have to "specialize" in trading. We already know that the changes in mining will require mining "specialists." How many people take mining to lvl 5 now or astrogeology to lvl 5? Most people can mine. But only a minority top out the skills.
Right now everyone can trade (with other players) at the same level via the NPC market. Do the changes mean that everyone will have to train trade skills? No. Some people will become even more specialized in fighting. SOme will find many more hauling jobs. Some will be more mission oriented. Do you really think anyone can build a station or should that require advance building skills?
True. There are already some players that have lvl 5 in a lot of different skills. But I believe that those players are not the majority. And those that I do know, do not like to play alone. After all, what good is it to have all skills? Save some money building your own stuff to blow up yourself?
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Chepe Nolon
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Posted - 2004.10.23 22:40:00 -
[45]
But could someone sum up what the skills do in human understandable format?
Trade, Retail, Wholesale = How many sell orders you can have at the same time Broker Relations, Accounting = Affects fees Margin Trading = Reduces the ammount of how much you have to pay up front in buy orders. Marketing = How far away you can be the item that you want to sell Procurement = How far away you can be from the station where you place your buy order. Daytrading = How far away you can be to edit the sell/buy order Visibility = How far the sell order will show from the station where it's placed.
Have I misunderstood some skills, and what tells how far buy orders will be seen, or how far they count? Or do they only count at station now?
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Chepe Nolon
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Posted - 2004.10.23 22:40:00 -
[46]
But could someone sum up what the skills do in human understandable format?
Trade, Retail, Wholesale = How many sell orders you can have at the same time Broker Relations, Accounting = Affects fees Margin Trading = Reduces the ammount of how much you have to pay up front in buy orders. Marketing = How far away you can be the item that you want to sell Procurement = How far away you can be from the station where you place your buy order. Daytrading = How far away you can be to edit the sell/buy order Visibility = How far the sell order will show from the station where it's placed.
Have I misunderstood some skills, and what tells how far buy orders will be seen, or how far they count? Or do they only count at station now?
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Urkl
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Posted - 2004.10.25 00:42:00 -
[47]
I'm very unhappy about these changes, and I honestly believe the "specialization" argument is utter bullocks. I am a full-time "professional" miner and refiner. Almost all my skill points are in mining and refining skills (and of course Ihave low CHA).
As a miner I need to be able to sell what I mine; the market is a necessary secondary function of my "job."
As a refiner I buy ore on the market for less than my recycle value, then resell the minerals on the market. Again, the market is a necessary function of my current specializations. Certainly the same thing goes for those who have specialized in manufacturing.
The market is NOT a "specialization thing," it's a necessary part of pre-existing specializations. Thsi is just screwing over people who need to use the market in their daily "jobs" anyway.
*** ***** ***** ***** ** ***** ** **** *** *****. |
Urkl
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Posted - 2004.10.25 00:42:00 -
[48]
I'm very unhappy about these changes, and I honestly believe the "specialization" argument is utter bullocks. I am a full-time "professional" miner and refiner. Almost all my skill points are in mining and refining skills (and of course Ihave low CHA).
As a miner I need to be able to sell what I mine; the market is a necessary secondary function of my "job."
As a refiner I buy ore on the market for less than my recycle value, then resell the minerals on the market. Again, the market is a necessary function of my current specializations. Certainly the same thing goes for those who have specialized in manufacturing.
The market is NOT a "specialization thing," it's a necessary part of pre-existing specializations. Thsi is just screwing over people who need to use the market in their daily "jobs" anyway.
*** ***** ***** ***** ** ***** ** **** *** *****. |
Allaina
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Posted - 2004.10.25 04:43:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Urkl I'm very unhappy about these changes, and I honestly believe the "specialization" argument is utter bullocks. I am a full-time "professional" miner and refiner. Almost all my skill points are in mining and refining skills (and of course Ihave low CHA).
As a miner I need to be able to sell what I mine; the market is a necessary secondary function of my "job."
As a refiner I buy ore on the market for less than my recycle value, then resell the minerals on the market. Again, the market is a necessary function of my current specializations. Certainly the same thing goes for those who have specialized in manufacturing.
The market is NOT a "specialization thing," it's a necessary part of pre-existing specializations. Thsi is just screwing over people who need to use the market in their daily "jobs" anyway.
Bulllocks. All chars get 4 market orders for no skill. Trade is a rank 1 skill. As a professional miner and refiner you should have to spend a few hours at most training to be able to cover all you buy/sell needs. I'm sorry if you think that is excessive, but it isn't exactly screwing you over to have to take a few hours out of your day training a skill so you can buy/sell all the minerals and ores. You want to do more, that means you are a trader and you better start specializing. As a fighter/agent runner I only need a few points in trade to keep me happy, and I'll gladly sell all my ore to you in direct trade to save you yet another market order
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Allaina
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Posted - 2004.10.25 04:43:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Urkl I'm very unhappy about these changes, and I honestly believe the "specialization" argument is utter bullocks. I am a full-time "professional" miner and refiner. Almost all my skill points are in mining and refining skills (and of course Ihave low CHA).
As a miner I need to be able to sell what I mine; the market is a necessary secondary function of my "job."
As a refiner I buy ore on the market for less than my recycle value, then resell the minerals on the market. Again, the market is a necessary function of my current specializations. Certainly the same thing goes for those who have specialized in manufacturing.
The market is NOT a "specialization thing," it's a necessary part of pre-existing specializations. Thsi is just screwing over people who need to use the market in their daily "jobs" anyway.
Bulllocks. All chars get 4 market orders for no skill. Trade is a rank 1 skill. As a professional miner and refiner you should have to spend a few hours at most training to be able to cover all you buy/sell needs. I'm sorry if you think that is excessive, but it isn't exactly screwing you over to have to take a few hours out of your day training a skill so you can buy/sell all the minerals and ores. You want to do more, that means you are a trader and you better start specializing. As a fighter/agent runner I only need a few points in trade to keep me happy, and I'll gladly sell all my ore to you in direct trade to save you yet another market order
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Urkl
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Posted - 2004.10.25 08:54:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Urkl on 25/10/2004 09:16:00
Originally by: Allaina
Originally by: Urkl I'm very unhappy about these changes, and I honestly believe the "specialization" argument is utter bullocks. I am a full-time "professional" miner and refiner. Almost all my skill points are in mining and refining skills (and of course Ihave low CHA).
As a miner I need to be able to sell what I mine; the market is a necessary secondary function of my "job."
As a refiner I buy ore on the market for less than my recycle value, then resell the minerals on the market. Again, the market is a necessary function of my current specializations. Certainly the same thing goes for those who have specialized in manufacturing.
The market is NOT a "specialization thing," it's a necessary part of pre-existing specializations. Thsi is just screwing over people who need to use the market in their daily "jobs" anyway.
Bulllocks. All chars get 4 market orders for no skill. Trade is a rank 1 skill. As a professional miner and refiner you should have to spend a few hours at most training to be able to cover all you buy/sell needs.
How exactly do you figure that? I operate primarily out of 2 regions, and because I don't want to end up buying a ton of ore 10 jumps into low sec space, I put all my buy orders up in each individual solar system that I can competitively buy out of. It adds up to quite a lot of buy orders. This is before getting into selling my minerals from the ore I buy and from my mining. Oh, and in addition to all the training time now needed just to keep up with my current buy/sell orders, I'm also going to be making less money on them and have less liquid capital to spend until I invest a crockpot of time in the tax-reducing and deposit-reducing skills.
Edit: Oh yeah, forgot to mention that if I want people to actually SEE what I'm selling without being in the same system I'm selling in, there's some more training time down the tubes... and if I want to be able to compare my buy prices to the rest of the region there's some more training time....
This very large market nerf is about FAR more than just "how many buy/sell orders you can have."
Quote:
I'm sorry if you think that is excessive, but it isn't exactly screwing you over to have to take a few hours out of your day training a skill so you can buy/sell all the minerals and ores.
I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear originally, but it's going to take a lot more than a few days, let alone a few hours, to be able to operate in the same manner I do right now.
Quote:
You want to do more, that means you are a trader and you better start specializing.
See, that's the foolishness of all this "trader specialization" talk. I thought when I trained mining and astrgeology to lvl 5 (still getting the drones maxxed out but almost there ) I was specializing in mining. Then I thought when I started getting my refining skills up perhaps I had a "secondary specialization" in refining. Now you're telling me that in order to actually make money at my chosen profession (you know, by selling the products of my labor on the market), I need to "specialize" in a THIRD thing. Gee whiz, how many different things can we do and still call it "specializing?" Like I said originally, the market is NOT something to be "specialized" in, it's a necessary function of pre-existing specializations.
Quote:
As a fighter/agent runner I only need a few points in trade to keep me happy, and I'll gladly sell all my ore to you in direct trade to save you yet another market order
Sure thing, drop me a line in-game any time
*** ***** ***** ***** ** ***** ** **** *** *****. |
Urkl
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 08:54:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Urkl on 25/10/2004 09:16:00
Originally by: Allaina
Originally by: Urkl I'm very unhappy about these changes, and I honestly believe the "specialization" argument is utter bullocks. I am a full-time "professional" miner and refiner. Almost all my skill points are in mining and refining skills (and of course Ihave low CHA).
As a miner I need to be able to sell what I mine; the market is a necessary secondary function of my "job."
As a refiner I buy ore on the market for less than my recycle value, then resell the minerals on the market. Again, the market is a necessary function of my current specializations. Certainly the same thing goes for those who have specialized in manufacturing.
The market is NOT a "specialization thing," it's a necessary part of pre-existing specializations. Thsi is just screwing over people who need to use the market in their daily "jobs" anyway.
Bulllocks. All chars get 4 market orders for no skill. Trade is a rank 1 skill. As a professional miner and refiner you should have to spend a few hours at most training to be able to cover all you buy/sell needs.
How exactly do you figure that? I operate primarily out of 2 regions, and because I don't want to end up buying a ton of ore 10 jumps into low sec space, I put all my buy orders up in each individual solar system that I can competitively buy out of. It adds up to quite a lot of buy orders. This is before getting into selling my minerals from the ore I buy and from my mining. Oh, and in addition to all the training time now needed just to keep up with my current buy/sell orders, I'm also going to be making less money on them and have less liquid capital to spend until I invest a crockpot of time in the tax-reducing and deposit-reducing skills.
Edit: Oh yeah, forgot to mention that if I want people to actually SEE what I'm selling without being in the same system I'm selling in, there's some more training time down the tubes... and if I want to be able to compare my buy prices to the rest of the region there's some more training time....
This very large market nerf is about FAR more than just "how many buy/sell orders you can have."
Quote:
I'm sorry if you think that is excessive, but it isn't exactly screwing you over to have to take a few hours out of your day training a skill so you can buy/sell all the minerals and ores.
I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear originally, but it's going to take a lot more than a few days, let alone a few hours, to be able to operate in the same manner I do right now.
Quote:
You want to do more, that means you are a trader and you better start specializing.
See, that's the foolishness of all this "trader specialization" talk. I thought when I trained mining and astrgeology to lvl 5 (still getting the drones maxxed out but almost there ) I was specializing in mining. Then I thought when I started getting my refining skills up perhaps I had a "secondary specialization" in refining. Now you're telling me that in order to actually make money at my chosen profession (you know, by selling the products of my labor on the market), I need to "specialize" in a THIRD thing. Gee whiz, how many different things can we do and still call it "specializing?" Like I said originally, the market is NOT something to be "specialized" in, it's a necessary function of pre-existing specializations.
Quote:
As a fighter/agent runner I only need a few points in trade to keep me happy, and I'll gladly sell all my ore to you in direct trade to save you yet another market order
Sure thing, drop me a line in-game any time
*** ***** ***** ***** ** ***** ** **** *** *****. |
Platinumjunkie
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 10:42:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Platinumjunkie on 25/10/2004 11:01:54
Quote: See, that's the foolishness of all this "trader specialization" talk. I thought when I trained mining and astrgeology to lvl 5 (still getting the drones maxxed out but almost there ) I was specializing in mining. Then I thought when I started getting my refining skills up perhaps I had a "secondary specialization" in refining. Now you're telling me that in order to actually make money at my chosen profession (you know, by selling the products of my labor on the market), I need to "specialize" in a THIRD thing. Gee whiz, how many different things can we do and still call it "specializing?" Like I said originally, the market is NOT something to be "specialized" in, it's a necessary function of pre-existing specializations. ------------Urkl
You said it yourself.. Its a necessary function. Why should you not have to specialize in it to be efficent similar to Mining and Refining? As a pure trader would not be as efficent as you at mining and refining, Thus its easier to let the miners do the mining, they know all the best fields and ways to produce, and which ores to mine that produce the most sought after minerals.
Knowing the market system, and getting the most profit potential from your product, is valuable information. And gives the game another path of professionalism to choose. You can choose to specialize any way you see fit, or let the traders do the trading.
A specialist in brokerage would be a great asset to you. Giving you an anonoymous reliable and dependable link into foreign systems, corporations, or even to profit from enemies, be it with or without your knowledge or interests. Saves you time and also should be a valueable resource for your own personal needs, info, and tips on current or most commonly sought after weapons and arsenals. Espionage information on precisely what a specific corporations financial situation could prove to be the deciding factor in when to proceed with a corporation war. Knowing your enemy is a golden rule in any war.
I find the detail of the Eve Universe to be immense and almost overwhelming with reality. But to me that is a what interested me in the game in the first place.
brōŠkẽr
Defition of the word: Broker Broker
(v. t.) One who transacts business for another; an agent. (v. t.) An agent employed to effect bargains and contracts, as a middleman or negotiator, between other persons, for a compensation commonly called brokerage. He takes no possession, as broker, of the subject matter of the negotiation. He generally contracts in the names of those who employ him, and not in his own. (v. t.) A dealer in money, notes, bills of exchange, etc. (v. t.) A dealer in secondhand goods. (v. t.) A pimp or procurer.
Myth of a salesman
brōŠkẽr (v. t.) A pimp or procurer.- Jeeves
|
Platinumjunkie
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 10:42:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Platinumjunkie on 25/10/2004 11:01:54
Quote: See, that's the foolishness of all this "trader specialization" talk. I thought when I trained mining and astrgeology to lvl 5 (still getting the drones maxxed out but almost there ) I was specializing in mining. Then I thought when I started getting my refining skills up perhaps I had a "secondary specialization" in refining. Now you're telling me that in order to actually make money at my chosen profession (you know, by selling the products of my labor on the market), I need to "specialize" in a THIRD thing. Gee whiz, how many different things can we do and still call it "specializing?" Like I said originally, the market is NOT something to be "specialized" in, it's a necessary function of pre-existing specializations. ------------Urkl
You said it yourself.. Its a necessary function. Why should you not have to specialize in it to be efficent similar to Mining and Refining? As a pure trader would not be as efficent as you at mining and refining, Thus its easier to let the miners do the mining, they know all the best fields and ways to produce, and which ores to mine that produce the most sought after minerals.
Knowing the market system, and getting the most profit potential from your product, is valuable information. And gives the game another path of professionalism to choose. You can choose to specialize any way you see fit, or let the traders do the trading.
A specialist in brokerage would be a great asset to you. Giving you an anonoymous reliable and dependable link into foreign systems, corporations, or even to profit from enemies, be it with or without your knowledge or interests. Saves you time and also should be a valueable resource for your own personal needs, info, and tips on current or most commonly sought after weapons and arsenals. Espionage information on precisely what a specific corporations financial situation could prove to be the deciding factor in when to proceed with a corporation war. Knowing your enemy is a golden rule in any war.
I find the detail of the Eve Universe to be immense and almost overwhelming with reality. But to me that is a what interested me in the game in the first place.
brōŠkẽr
Defition of the word: Broker Broker
(v. t.) One who transacts business for another; an agent. (v. t.) An agent employed to effect bargains and contracts, as a middleman or negotiator, between other persons, for a compensation commonly called brokerage. He takes no possession, as broker, of the subject matter of the negotiation. He generally contracts in the names of those who employ him, and not in his own. (v. t.) A dealer in money, notes, bills of exchange, etc. (v. t.) A dealer in secondhand goods. (v. t.) A pimp or procurer.
Myth of a salesman
brōŠkẽr (v. t.) A pimp or procurer.- Jeeves
|
Cell Satimo
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 11:17:00 -
[55]
If you don't like the changes, you should be taking it out on the people who place ridiculous amounts of 1.00 isk for every item orders and sell shuttles for 10m.
Actually come to think of it, you can probably expect to see more shuttles for 10m as a result lol. | Join eve-webring.com to promote your site. |
Cell Satimo
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 11:17:00 -
[56]
If you don't like the changes, you should be taking it out on the people who place ridiculous amounts of 1.00 isk for every item orders and sell shuttles for 10m.
Actually come to think of it, you can probably expect to see more shuttles for 10m as a result lol. | Join eve-webring.com to promote your site. |
cyberdragon
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 11:32:00 -
[57]
I am unhappy at the changes. I have only found about these and have low trade skills but high industry skills. I am a miner /manufactory. These changes will all most stop all the inflow of cash I get as a result. I dont have the money to get most of the trade skills as the more advanced ones cost a fortune. I have had no warning on the market changes. If I had found out earlyer I could of trained my trade skill. but its almost to late now.
can anyone give me any advice on my problem?
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cyberdragon
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 11:32:00 -
[58]
I am unhappy at the changes. I have only found about these and have low trade skills but high industry skills. I am a miner /manufactory. These changes will all most stop all the inflow of cash I get as a result. I dont have the money to get most of the trade skills as the more advanced ones cost a fortune. I have had no warning on the market changes. If I had found out earlyer I could of trained my trade skill. but its almost to late now.
can anyone give me any advice on my problem?
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Urkl
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 11:36:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Platinumjunkie Edited by: Platinumjunkie on 25/10/2004 11:01:54
Quote: See, that's the foolishness of all this "trader specialization" talk. I thought when I trained mining and astrgeology to lvl 5 (still getting the drones maxxed out but almost there ) I was specializing in mining. Then I thought when I started getting my refining skills up perhaps I had a "secondary specialization" in refining. Now you're telling me that in order to actually make money at my chosen profession (you know, by selling the products of my labor on the market), I need to "specialize" in a THIRD thing. Gee whiz, how many different things can we do and still call it "specializing?" Like I said originally, the market is NOT something to be "specialized" in, it's a necessary function of pre-existing specializations. ------------Urkl
You said it yourself.. Its a necessary function. Why should you not have to specialize in it to be efficent similar to Mining and Refining?
For the same reason that I don't have to have any additional training to sell the computers I build and sell to the public for a profit in real life. My "specialty" is building computers. A necessary function of making my living is being able to sell those computers. It took no special training to be able to advertise and sell my product,just as it takes no special training for me to place an ad in the newspaper to sell my old stereo, or to go to the pet store and buy dog collars to turn around and resell on Ebay as BDSM gear for twice what I paid for them (yeah I know of a guy that does that, claims he makes pretty good money at it )
Quote:
As a pure trader would not be as efficent as you at mining and refining, Thus its easier to let the miners do the mining, they know all the best fields and ways to produce, and which ores to mine that produce the most sought after minerals.
Right, but that obviously doesn't go both ways. Obviously I already know how to buy and sell (and so does everyone else.) Like I said, I don't see the "specialization" aspect in the Eve market. If we were talking about actually having stock brokers, etc, it'd be a different story, but we don't, we're talking about simple buying and selling of goods here.
Quote:
Knowing the market system, and getting the most profit potential from your product, is valuable information. And gives the game another path of professionalism to choose. You can choose to specialize any way you see fit, or let the traders do the trading.
See above.
Quote:
A specialist in brokerage would be a great asset to you. Giving you an anonoymous reliable and dependable link into foreign systems, corporations, or even to profit from enemies, be it with or without your knowledge or interests. Saves you time and also should be a valueable resource for your own personal needs, info, and tips on current or most commonly sought after weapons and arsenals. Espionage information on precisely what a specific corporations financial situation could prove to be the deciding factor in when to proceed with a corporation war. Knowing your enemy is a golden rule in any war.
I already maximize my profits,without paying some 3rd party a cut of the take for doing that which I am capable of doing on my own. Besides, I think you went off on a bit of a tangent there
Quote:
I find the detail of the Eve Universe to be immense and almost overwhelming with reality. But to me that is a what interested me in the game in the first place.
What interested me in this game was the Free Market, and the idea that I could be an entrepeneur. Aside from the impact these changes have on me personally, I think that the best part of this game is going to be ruined when the market is no longer as "big" as it is now due to far fewer people participating in it.
Quote:
brōŠkẽr
Defition of the word: Broker Broker
(v. t.) One who transacts business for another; an agent. (v. t.) An agent employed to effect bargains and contracts, as a middleman or negotiator, between other persons, for a compensation commonly called brokerage. He takes no possession, as broker, of the subject matter of the negotiation. He generally contracts in the names of those who employ him, and not in his own. (v. t.) A dealer in money, notes, bills of exchange, etc. (v. t.) A dealer in secondhand goods. (v. t.) A pimp or procurer.
Im glad you can use a dictionary
*** ***** ***** ***** ** ***** ** **** *** *****. |
Urkl
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 11:36:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Platinumjunkie Edited by: Platinumjunkie on 25/10/2004 11:01:54
Quote: See, that's the foolishness of all this "trader specialization" talk. I thought when I trained mining and astrgeology to lvl 5 (still getting the drones maxxed out but almost there ) I was specializing in mining. Then I thought when I started getting my refining skills up perhaps I had a "secondary specialization" in refining. Now you're telling me that in order to actually make money at my chosen profession (you know, by selling the products of my labor on the market), I need to "specialize" in a THIRD thing. Gee whiz, how many different things can we do and still call it "specializing?" Like I said originally, the market is NOT something to be "specialized" in, it's a necessary function of pre-existing specializations. ------------Urkl
You said it yourself.. Its a necessary function. Why should you not have to specialize in it to be efficent similar to Mining and Refining?
For the same reason that I don't have to have any additional training to sell the computers I build and sell to the public for a profit in real life. My "specialty" is building computers. A necessary function of making my living is being able to sell those computers. It took no special training to be able to advertise and sell my product,just as it takes no special training for me to place an ad in the newspaper to sell my old stereo, or to go to the pet store and buy dog collars to turn around and resell on Ebay as BDSM gear for twice what I paid for them (yeah I know of a guy that does that, claims he makes pretty good money at it )
Quote:
As a pure trader would not be as efficent as you at mining and refining, Thus its easier to let the miners do the mining, they know all the best fields and ways to produce, and which ores to mine that produce the most sought after minerals.
Right, but that obviously doesn't go both ways. Obviously I already know how to buy and sell (and so does everyone else.) Like I said, I don't see the "specialization" aspect in the Eve market. If we were talking about actually having stock brokers, etc, it'd be a different story, but we don't, we're talking about simple buying and selling of goods here.
Quote:
Knowing the market system, and getting the most profit potential from your product, is valuable information. And gives the game another path of professionalism to choose. You can choose to specialize any way you see fit, or let the traders do the trading.
See above.
Quote:
A specialist in brokerage would be a great asset to you. Giving you an anonoymous reliable and dependable link into foreign systems, corporations, or even to profit from enemies, be it with or without your knowledge or interests. Saves you time and also should be a valueable resource for your own personal needs, info, and tips on current or most commonly sought after weapons and arsenals. Espionage information on precisely what a specific corporations financial situation could prove to be the deciding factor in when to proceed with a corporation war. Knowing your enemy is a golden rule in any war.
I already maximize my profits,without paying some 3rd party a cut of the take for doing that which I am capable of doing on my own. Besides, I think you went off on a bit of a tangent there
Quote:
I find the detail of the Eve Universe to be immense and almost overwhelming with reality. But to me that is a what interested me in the game in the first place.
What interested me in this game was the Free Market, and the idea that I could be an entrepeneur. Aside from the impact these changes have on me personally, I think that the best part of this game is going to be ruined when the market is no longer as "big" as it is now due to far fewer people participating in it.
Quote:
brōŠkẽr
Defition of the word: Broker Broker
(v. t.) One who transacts business for another; an agent. (v. t.) An agent employed to effect bargains and contracts, as a middleman or negotiator, between other persons, for a compensation commonly called brokerage. He takes no possession, as broker, of the subject matter of the negotiation. He generally contracts in the names of those who employ him, and not in his own. (v. t.) A dealer in money, notes, bills of exchange, etc. (v. t.) A dealer in secondhand goods. (v. t.) A pimp or procurer.
Im glad you can use a dictionary
*** ***** ***** ***** ** ***** ** **** *** *****. |
|
Chepe Nolon
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 11:37:00 -
[61]
After thinking about the situation, I start to like it more and more:
See it this way. Miners don't need the all the tradeskills if they don't want to. Maybe training trade to level 3 will do to cover all the ore/minerals. And prolly training the skills that reduce the fees will also help. Then he can either announce it on the forums or in a tradechannel, or place the sales at a hub.
The trader is the second level. He will have to scour the hubs or go through systems where he knows he can buy some ore. He can also set up buy orders in different stations. He can then put up a large sale of minerals and announce it with his visibility skills. Or maybe produce something out of it, and place that on the market. Or he have a deal with a few corps that needs minerals, and transport it to an another hub and place a sell order.
This makes market a bit cleaner, as we get rid of all those who sell below recycling value. Fighters would rather go through a trader to get rid of their junk, than training skills to sell it. Maybe even recycling it before selling.
Think of it for a moment... It isn't that bad imho.
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Chepe Nolon
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 11:37:00 -
[62]
After thinking about the situation, I start to like it more and more:
See it this way. Miners don't need the all the tradeskills if they don't want to. Maybe training trade to level 3 will do to cover all the ore/minerals. And prolly training the skills that reduce the fees will also help. Then he can either announce it on the forums or in a tradechannel, or place the sales at a hub.
The trader is the second level. He will have to scour the hubs or go through systems where he knows he can buy some ore. He can also set up buy orders in different stations. He can then put up a large sale of minerals and announce it with his visibility skills. Or maybe produce something out of it, and place that on the market. Or he have a deal with a few corps that needs minerals, and transport it to an another hub and place a sell order.
This makes market a bit cleaner, as we get rid of all those who sell below recycling value. Fighters would rather go through a trader to get rid of their junk, than training skills to sell it. Maybe even recycling it before selling.
Think of it for a moment... It isn't that bad imho.
|
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 12:12:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Chepe Nolon After thinking about the situation, I start to like it more and more:
See it this way. Miners don't need the all the tradeskills if they don't want to. Maybe training trade to level 3 will do to cover all the ore/minerals. And prolly training the skills that reduce the fees will also help. Then he can either announce it on the forums or in a tradechannel, or place the sales at a hub.
The trader is the second level. He will have to scour the hubs or go through systems where he knows he can buy some ore. He can also set up buy orders in different stations. He can then put up a large sale of minerals and announce it with his visibility skills. Or maybe produce something out of it, and place that on the market. Or he have a deal with a few corps that needs minerals, and transport it to an another hub and place a sell order.
This makes market a bit cleaner, as we get rid of all those who sell below recycling value. Fighters would rather go through a trader to get rid of their junk, than training skills to sell it. Maybe even recycling it before selling.
Think of it for a moment... It isn't that bad imho.
Without this skil:
Visibility = How far the sell order will show from the station where it's placed.
It's useless, if the orders would keep showing up decently far away you would be right... But without it it will only show in the same station as the wannabe buyer is (for example if you wanna sell your minerals without that skill then NOONE can see that you are trying to sell those minerals/implants/mods on the market unless they are docked at the station you put the order up). And the only thing this will mean is that either you get that skill (screw that, i got more important things to train) or just use escrow...
Also remember you will need lvl5 visibility to get the same "visability" as your sell orders you currently got (region wide). -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 12:12:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Chepe Nolon After thinking about the situation, I start to like it more and more:
See it this way. Miners don't need the all the tradeskills if they don't want to. Maybe training trade to level 3 will do to cover all the ore/minerals. And prolly training the skills that reduce the fees will also help. Then he can either announce it on the forums or in a tradechannel, or place the sales at a hub.
The trader is the second level. He will have to scour the hubs or go through systems where he knows he can buy some ore. He can also set up buy orders in different stations. He can then put up a large sale of minerals and announce it with his visibility skills. Or maybe produce something out of it, and place that on the market. Or he have a deal with a few corps that needs minerals, and transport it to an another hub and place a sell order.
This makes market a bit cleaner, as we get rid of all those who sell below recycling value. Fighters would rather go through a trader to get rid of their junk, than training skills to sell it. Maybe even recycling it before selling.
Think of it for a moment... It isn't that bad imho.
Without this skil:
Visibility = How far the sell order will show from the station where it's placed.
It's useless, if the orders would keep showing up decently far away you would be right... But without it it will only show in the same station as the wannabe buyer is (for example if you wanna sell your minerals without that skill then NOONE can see that you are trying to sell those minerals/implants/mods on the market unless they are docked at the station you put the order up). And the only thing this will mean is that either you get that skill (screw that, i got more important things to train) or just use escrow...
Also remember you will need lvl5 visibility to get the same "visability" as your sell orders you currently got (region wide). -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Harisdrop
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 15:46:00 -
[65]
Over view:
One man do all , jack of all trades is over. The game is based on people working together. Its about to make the middle man more important. If you are a miner you place your orders on the market. Normally you will have to sacrifice some of your profit. The cash flow will be increased. Your orders will be moving faster. With fewer playing the market the deal will be to find a trust worthy Trader to move your items.
I will be looking for the best margin. I plan not to be what I am today. I wont be doinging anything but flying station to station buying and converting to sell orders. Hauling escrow will increase the base materials will drop in value and the finished product will increase.
So the key will not be mining/refine/sell it will be mine/refine/produce.
--------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 15:46:00 -
[66]
Over view:
One man do all , jack of all trades is over. The game is based on people working together. Its about to make the middle man more important. If you are a miner you place your orders on the market. Normally you will have to sacrifice some of your profit. The cash flow will be increased. Your orders will be moving faster. With fewer playing the market the deal will be to find a trust worthy Trader to move your items.
I will be looking for the best margin. I plan not to be what I am today. I wont be doinging anything but flying station to station buying and converting to sell orders. Hauling escrow will increase the base materials will drop in value and the finished product will increase.
So the key will not be mining/refine/sell it will be mine/refine/produce.
--------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Chepe Nolon
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 15:48:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Shevar
Originally by: Chepe Nolon After thinking about the situation, I start to like it more and more:
See it this way. Miners don't need the all the tradeskills if they don't want to. Maybe training trade to level 3 will do to cover all the ore/minerals. And prolly training the skills that reduce the fees will also help. Then he can either announce it on the forums or in a tradechannel, or place the sales at a hub.
The trader is the second level. He will have to scour the hubs or go through systems where he knows he can buy some ore. He can also set up buy orders in different stations. He can then put up a large sale of minerals and announce it with his visibility skills. Or maybe produce something out of it, and place that on the market. Or he have a deal with a few corps that needs minerals, and transport it to an another hub and place a sell order.
This makes market a bit cleaner, as we get rid of all those who sell below recycling value. Fighters would rather go through a trader to get rid of their junk, than training skills to sell it. Maybe even recycling it before selling.
Think of it for a moment... It isn't that bad imho.
Without this skil:
Visibility = How far the sell order will show from the station where it's placed.
It's useless, if the orders would keep showing up decently far away you would be right... But without it it will only show in the same station as the wannabe buyer is (for example if you wanna sell your minerals without that skill then NOONE can see that you are trying to sell those minerals/implants/mods on the market unless they are docked at the station you put the order up). And the only thing this will mean is that either you get that skill (screw that, i got more important things to train) or just use escrow...
Also remember you will need lvl5 visibility to get the same "visability" as your sell orders you currently got (region wide).
Yes, it will be the buyers market, and you will get hub/market systems again, like yulai and lumi was before they rerouted some of the highways.
|
Chepe Nolon
|
Posted - 2004.10.25 15:48:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Shevar
Originally by: Chepe Nolon After thinking about the situation, I start to like it more and more:
See it this way. Miners don't need the all the tradeskills if they don't want to. Maybe training trade to level 3 will do to cover all the ore/minerals. And prolly training the skills that reduce the fees will also help. Then he can either announce it on the forums or in a tradechannel, or place the sales at a hub.
The trader is the second level. He will have to scour the hubs or go through systems where he knows he can buy some ore. He can also set up buy orders in different stations. He can then put up a large sale of minerals and announce it with his visibility skills. Or maybe produce something out of it, and place that on the market. Or he have a deal with a few corps that needs minerals, and transport it to an another hub and place a sell order.
This makes market a bit cleaner, as we get rid of all those who sell below recycling value. Fighters would rather go through a trader to get rid of their junk, than training skills to sell it. Maybe even recycling it before selling.
Think of it for a moment... It isn't that bad imho.
Without this skil:
Visibility = How far the sell order will show from the station where it's placed.
It's useless, if the orders would keep showing up decently far away you would be right... But without it it will only show in the same station as the wannabe buyer is (for example if you wanna sell your minerals without that skill then NOONE can see that you are trying to sell those minerals/implants/mods on the market unless they are docked at the station you put the order up). And the only thing this will mean is that either you get that skill (screw that, i got more important things to train) or just use escrow...
Also remember you will need lvl5 visibility to get the same "visability" as your sell orders you currently got (region wide).
Yes, it will be the buyers market, and you will get hub/market systems again, like yulai and lumi was before they rerouted some of the highways.
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Chepe Nolon
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Posted - 2004.10.25 16:00:00 -
[69]
And we are after all talking about trade II, Marketing II, Procurement IV before you can start on visibility. Procurement IV and Visibility IV will take approx a week to train if you ok charisma and memory. (It will take me 6 days with 20 charisma and 24 memory). It's not like a rank 5 skill you need to train to V before you can start on visibility. It's just a entrance fee to the tradeworld.
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Chepe Nolon
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Posted - 2004.10.25 16:00:00 -
[70]
And we are after all talking about trade II, Marketing II, Procurement IV before you can start on visibility. Procurement IV and Visibility IV will take approx a week to train if you ok charisma and memory. (It will take me 6 days with 20 charisma and 24 memory). It's not like a rank 5 skill you need to train to V before you can start on visibility. It's just a entrance fee to the tradeworld.
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Wulfnor
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Posted - 2004.10.25 16:32:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Shevar
Also remember you will need lvl5 visibility to get the same "visability" as your sell orders you currently got (region wide).
How do you figure this statement is true? I dont know of regions that require more than 40 jumps to traverse which would be required if I was near the middle a region and placed a sell order with Visibility 4. If I was at the end of a region the other end must be more than 20 jumps away. How many of those exist?
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Wulfnor
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Posted - 2004.10.25 16:32:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Shevar
Also remember you will need lvl5 visibility to get the same "visability" as your sell orders you currently got (region wide).
How do you figure this statement is true? I dont know of regions that require more than 40 jumps to traverse which would be required if I was near the middle a region and placed a sell order with Visibility 4. If I was at the end of a region the other end must be more than 20 jumps away. How many of those exist?
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cyberdragon
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Posted - 2004.10.25 17:17:00 -
[73]
I worked out how much it would cost me to get the skills I need to learn visbilty it worked out to 12.5 million. Now I have 1.5 mill and I am trying to get make a small trade empire. By manufactoring and selling the stuff I build. I belive the skills should be much cheaper. Does anyone agree with this?
P.S By the way the battle ship skill cost 4 million. I am paying the same for 3 battle ship skills just for 3 trade skills.
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cyberdragon
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Posted - 2004.10.25 17:17:00 -
[74]
I worked out how much it would cost me to get the skills I need to learn visbilty it worked out to 12.5 million. Now I have 1.5 mill and I am trying to get make a small trade empire. By manufactoring and selling the stuff I build. I belive the skills should be much cheaper. Does anyone agree with this?
P.S By the way the battle ship skill cost 4 million. I am paying the same for 3 battle ship skills just for 3 trade skills.
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.10.25 17:58:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Chepe Nolon
Yes, it will be the buyers market, and you will get hub/market systems again, like yulai and lumi was before they rerouted some of the highways.
Nah it will be an escrow market... With escrows people can view what you are selling throughout the region and partly galaxy wide (not always because escrows are kinda bugged with viewing all escrows).
Originally by: wulfnor
How do you figure this statement is true? I dont know of regions that require more than 40 jumps to traverse which would be required if I was near the middle a region and placed a sell order with Visibility 4. If I was at the end of a region the other end must be more than 20 jumps away. How many of those exist?
Correction, i messed up the skill descriptions (i thought about marketing). lvl5 visibilty will show your sell orders 160 jumps out, lvl4 will show it 80 jumps out. -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.10.25 17:58:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Chepe Nolon
Yes, it will be the buyers market, and you will get hub/market systems again, like yulai and lumi was before they rerouted some of the highways.
Nah it will be an escrow market... With escrows people can view what you are selling throughout the region and partly galaxy wide (not always because escrows are kinda bugged with viewing all escrows).
Originally by: wulfnor
How do you figure this statement is true? I dont know of regions that require more than 40 jumps to traverse which would be required if I was near the middle a region and placed a sell order with Visibility 4. If I was at the end of a region the other end must be more than 20 jumps away. How many of those exist?
Correction, i messed up the skill descriptions (i thought about marketing). lvl5 visibilty will show your sell orders 160 jumps out, lvl4 will show it 80 jumps out. -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shutre Deare
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Posted - 2004.10.26 00:24:00 -
[77]
Lvl 1 visibility shows your orders in solar system (no skill shows station only) , lvl 2 then adds 5 systems to range , lvl 3 adds additional 5 (10 total) and lvl 4 adds 5 for total of 15.
If you train to lvl 4 (up to 5 days total) and move goods to near center of region , your order will be seen throughout region. Lvl 5 is a perk , allowing you to just enter region and with marketing and daytrading you can modify an order anywhere in the region.
Visibility is a necessary skill if you wish to have your orders seen beyond the solar system (only lvl 1 needed for system , but lvl 2 allows for 6 jump window (under 2 hours training time even with crappy attributes)
As far as escrows being the end all save all , LOL , think about weeding through all the 1000 small nuclear ammo orders placed (by the player too busy to train visibility). Now multiply that 1 escrow times 20 (he made a 20 k batch) , then multiply that order by 5 ammo types (or more since he has hybrid bps also) , now multiply that times 100 players trying the same thing.
Long story shortened , you wont even see that large 'accommodation' armor repairer you are looking for due to the total number of "crap" escrows set up by players who do not wish to train trade skills.
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Shutre Deare
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Posted - 2004.10.26 00:24:00 -
[78]
Lvl 1 visibility shows your orders in solar system (no skill shows station only) , lvl 2 then adds 5 systems to range , lvl 3 adds additional 5 (10 total) and lvl 4 adds 5 for total of 15.
If you train to lvl 4 (up to 5 days total) and move goods to near center of region , your order will be seen throughout region. Lvl 5 is a perk , allowing you to just enter region and with marketing and daytrading you can modify an order anywhere in the region.
Visibility is a necessary skill if you wish to have your orders seen beyond the solar system (only lvl 1 needed for system , but lvl 2 allows for 6 jump window (under 2 hours training time even with crappy attributes)
As far as escrows being the end all save all , LOL , think about weeding through all the 1000 small nuclear ammo orders placed (by the player too busy to train visibility). Now multiply that 1 escrow times 20 (he made a 20 k batch) , then multiply that order by 5 ammo types (or more since he has hybrid bps also) , now multiply that times 100 players trying the same thing.
Long story shortened , you wont even see that large 'accommodation' armor repairer you are looking for due to the total number of "crap" escrows set up by players who do not wish to train trade skills.
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Ka'ira
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Posted - 2004.10.26 06:49:00 -
[79]
Train the new trade skills already! Get on with the program û the changes will be made!
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Ka'ira
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Posted - 2004.10.26 06:49:00 -
[80]
Train the new trade skills already! Get on with the program û the changes will be made!
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Busko Moonwalker
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Posted - 2004.10.26 11:00:00 -
[81]
Yea agree with the last post skill allready there and if u are a pure miner i bet u allready have all the mining skills start training them. I on the other hand think the new system looks intresting. And like someone said will acctualy make the Trade a real job not like before where everone was a top trader. If i understand it correct u will hhave a bigger chance if u are pure trader with better skills to sell ur stuff.
Its a bit like the Hightways was removed i was super against it coz it basicly killed my selling but hey u have to addapt to whats in the game and if u have played eve for at least 4 months u should know it constantly changes :D
/Busko
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Busko Moonwalker
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Posted - 2004.10.26 11:00:00 -
[82]
Yea agree with the last post skill allready there and if u are a pure miner i bet u allready have all the mining skills start training them. I on the other hand think the new system looks intresting. And like someone said will acctualy make the Trade a real job not like before where everone was a top trader. If i understand it correct u will hhave a bigger chance if u are pure trader with better skills to sell ur stuff.
Its a bit like the Hightways was removed i was super against it coz it basicly killed my selling but hey u have to addapt to whats in the game and if u have played eve for at least 4 months u should know it constantly changes :D
/Busko
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2004.10.26 11:57:00 -
[83]
well, everybody is correct in here, but for a different time frame. Yes, in the beggining we WILL see some extortionate buy prices from trades, and some ludicrous sell prices. For a brief time, the few traders that exist will make untold amount of isks, untill we see the classic newb influx (or even experienced ppl switching professions) "ooh, I wanna trade too". That will level out the things and everyone will get used to always selling to buy orders and buying from selling orders.
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2004.10.26 11:57:00 -
[84]
well, everybody is correct in here, but for a different time frame. Yes, in the beggining we WILL see some extortionate buy prices from trades, and some ludicrous sell prices. For a brief time, the few traders that exist will make untold amount of isks, untill we see the classic newb influx (or even experienced ppl switching professions) "ooh, I wanna trade too". That will level out the things and everyone will get used to always selling to buy orders and buying from selling orders.
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The Hypnotist
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Posted - 2004.10.27 12:28:00 -
[85]
I think this could be a good change if a little painful for some. I like the idea of trading being a more skillful career but just like in the real world, if the method of buying/selling items is awkward then there will always be people who find a way to make it easier and will make lots of cash doing so.
Possible effects of new trading rules: - - ESCROW will be used a lot more. - Trade channels will be much busier and more trade channels will appear. - People will perhaps start using a (well managed) WWW site for posting BUY/SELL order information. - Particular stations / systems will become well known for certain products and will become trade choke-points. - Trading will not be easy.
These could all be good things and will make a much more interresting trading environment. When I think back to how I imagined EVE when I first started playing I kind of expected it to be more like Shiva will be if the new trading is implemented.
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The Hypnotist
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Posted - 2004.10.27 12:28:00 -
[86]
I think this could be a good change if a little painful for some. I like the idea of trading being a more skillful career but just like in the real world, if the method of buying/selling items is awkward then there will always be people who find a way to make it easier and will make lots of cash doing so.
Possible effects of new trading rules: - - ESCROW will be used a lot more. - Trade channels will be much busier and more trade channels will appear. - People will perhaps start using a (well managed) WWW site for posting BUY/SELL order information. - Particular stations / systems will become well known for certain products and will become trade choke-points. - Trading will not be easy.
These could all be good things and will make a much more interresting trading environment. When I think back to how I imagined EVE when I first started playing I kind of expected it to be more like Shiva will be if the new trading is implemented.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.27 18:44:00 -
[87]
Originally by: The Hypnotist
These could all be good things and will make a much more interresting trading environment. When I think back to how I imagined EVE when I first started playing I kind of expected it to be more like Shiva will be if the new trading is implemented.
This alone will make wars mean something. Alliances will have the resources of 0.0 to cull the noobs in Empire to thier ranks. If any other Alliance steps into the arena, Alliance wars will erupt.
Empire = training grounds.
The noobs watch as fleet blobs roam thru empire. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.10.27 18:44:00 -
[88]
Originally by: The Hypnotist
These could all be good things and will make a much more interresting trading environment. When I think back to how I imagined EVE when I first started playing I kind of expected it to be more like Shiva will be if the new trading is implemented.
This alone will make wars mean something. Alliances will have the resources of 0.0 to cull the noobs in Empire to thier ranks. If any other Alliance steps into the arena, Alliance wars will erupt.
Empire = training grounds.
The noobs watch as fleet blobs roam thru empire. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
DeODokktor
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Posted - 2004.10.27 23:46:00 -
[89]
I currently have about 70+ buy orders, and 20+ sell orders..
I think about 15 of the sell orders get rotated regularly and the other 5 are just items that sit in limbo (regular priced crap, like medium secure cans)
the 70+ buy orders are VERRY important to me and they are not these "Joke" orders like a bship for 1,000 isk .. But most of them deal with things like Caldari cruisers and the prices can shift 1-2 mil per system for buying and selling.
My BIG complaint is that CCP hasnt used their past problems as a good example for SHIVA .. These skills have absolute horrid descriptions.
Trade rasises Sell orders by +4 per Level Retail raises orders by +8 per Level Wholesale raises orders by +16 per Level
That looks simple.. But then I have to ask .. is "orders" buy+sell orders.. or did they leave a word out.
Train all of those to level 5 and I can have 140 buy orders or 120 sell orders .. but if I mix them then will my sell orders pull from my "Trade" skill first (I do hope so) .. Naff this question is I know but so is the skill description.
Now this Visibility .. It expands .. Cool Level 4 of it means I can go 20 hops.. pretty good that.. But I know that in about 5 hops I can cover 3 regions.. Does this mean that if I plop my product down on the edge of the system that I might get another 2 regions seeing the order (even if it is only people from the edge of that system mind you) .. I think this is a valid question and I am pretty sure the answer will be "no, markets are managed on a system by system basis" BUT This should be said in the description.
Market Trading.. What's that.. Is that to do with the market or with escrow OR will we se such a huge change between escrow and the market that they will be tied together..
TAX.. We all hate tax.. so it's being introduced.. now here is my Q on tax.. right now there is a tax system in place and I seem to only pay it 2 hours of 1 day of every other week.. so is tax something that's being "Tested" on the active server right now or is it FULLY live .. If I know how to avoid the tax (or more to it, if the other guy I am up against knows how to avoid it) then He will walk out of a big deal with more isk profit than me even if he's selling lower than me.
I think My complaint all stems from one thing.. The current lack of technical descripton of how the markets operate give little room for the guesswork on how a market change is going to affect the system. Releasing skills in advance may be good in some ways but I think that without providing some type of information exchange on how the markets will work then it's difficult to understand these things.
For those of you out there who say "Go play on shiva to see how it works" I must say that It would be much easier for them just to describe it once and make that information available through their site..
My 84.53 isk (if you want to buy more of my views be sure to upgrade ur skills by mid nov)
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DeODokktor
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Posted - 2004.10.27 23:46:00 -
[90]
I currently have about 70+ buy orders, and 20+ sell orders..
I think about 15 of the sell orders get rotated regularly and the other 5 are just items that sit in limbo (regular priced crap, like medium secure cans)
the 70+ buy orders are VERRY important to me and they are not these "Joke" orders like a bship for 1,000 isk .. But most of them deal with things like Caldari cruisers and the prices can shift 1-2 mil per system for buying and selling.
My BIG complaint is that CCP hasnt used their past problems as a good example for SHIVA .. These skills have absolute horrid descriptions.
Trade rasises Sell orders by +4 per Level Retail raises orders by +8 per Level Wholesale raises orders by +16 per Level
That looks simple.. But then I have to ask .. is "orders" buy+sell orders.. or did they leave a word out.
Train all of those to level 5 and I can have 140 buy orders or 120 sell orders .. but if I mix them then will my sell orders pull from my "Trade" skill first (I do hope so) .. Naff this question is I know but so is the skill description.
Now this Visibility .. It expands .. Cool Level 4 of it means I can go 20 hops.. pretty good that.. But I know that in about 5 hops I can cover 3 regions.. Does this mean that if I plop my product down on the edge of the system that I might get another 2 regions seeing the order (even if it is only people from the edge of that system mind you) .. I think this is a valid question and I am pretty sure the answer will be "no, markets are managed on a system by system basis" BUT This should be said in the description.
Market Trading.. What's that.. Is that to do with the market or with escrow OR will we se such a huge change between escrow and the market that they will be tied together..
TAX.. We all hate tax.. so it's being introduced.. now here is my Q on tax.. right now there is a tax system in place and I seem to only pay it 2 hours of 1 day of every other week.. so is tax something that's being "Tested" on the active server right now or is it FULLY live .. If I know how to avoid the tax (or more to it, if the other guy I am up against knows how to avoid it) then He will walk out of a big deal with more isk profit than me even if he's selling lower than me.
I think My complaint all stems from one thing.. The current lack of technical descripton of how the markets operate give little room for the guesswork on how a market change is going to affect the system. Releasing skills in advance may be good in some ways but I think that without providing some type of information exchange on how the markets will work then it's difficult to understand these things.
For those of you out there who say "Go play on shiva to see how it works" I must say that It would be much easier for them just to describe it once and make that information available through their site..
My 84.53 isk (if you want to buy more of my views be sure to upgrade ur skills by mid nov)
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Silvanemrys
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Posted - 2004.10.31 09:29:00 -
[91]
Trader/Broker/Pimp at your service. I'm loving new market changes. With remote buying and selling I can sit in my li'l Executioner pimp mobile with half the cargo bay converted into a jacuzzi and the other half converted into... well you'll only get to see that if ye'r hot enough, babe... anyways, I digress.... I can sit in space in my ship and buy remotely and sell remotely! What's not to love about that? I can't wait to see how it all works after it settles down and the nerf bat has hit a couple of rounds.
I'm curious about Margin Trading:
"Ability to make potentially risky investments work in your favor. Each level of skill reduces the percentage of ISK placed in market escrow when entering buy orders. Starting with an escrow percentage of 100% at Level 1, each skill level cumulatively reduces the percentage by 25%."
Anyone have any experience of what this is and how it works? My meagre brain can't quite sort that one out.
I know that the market skills will be subject to change as time goes on, but change is a comin'.
Adapt or die.
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Silvanemrys
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Posted - 2004.10.31 09:29:00 -
[92]
Trader/Broker/Pimp at your service. I'm loving new market changes. With remote buying and selling I can sit in my li'l Executioner pimp mobile with half the cargo bay converted into a jacuzzi and the other half converted into... well you'll only get to see that if ye'r hot enough, babe... anyways, I digress.... I can sit in space in my ship and buy remotely and sell remotely! What's not to love about that? I can't wait to see how it all works after it settles down and the nerf bat has hit a couple of rounds.
I'm curious about Margin Trading:
"Ability to make potentially risky investments work in your favor. Each level of skill reduces the percentage of ISK placed in market escrow when entering buy orders. Starting with an escrow percentage of 100% at Level 1, each skill level cumulatively reduces the percentage by 25%."
Anyone have any experience of what this is and how it works? My meagre brain can't quite sort that one out.
I know that the market skills will be subject to change as time goes on, but change is a comin'.
Adapt or die.
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Droidster
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Posted - 2004.11.01 04:00:00 -
[93]
Answers to the last couple of questions:
ORDER LIMIT: your order limit is the total number of orders you have both buy and sell.
MARGIN TRADING: If you have level 5 you pay no margin. If you have level 0 or 1, 100% margin. Level 2 is 75%, 3 is 50% and 4 is 25%. For example, if you put up a buy order for a Megathron for 100 million isk and you don't have margin trading, the 100 million is IMMEDIATELY deducted from your wallet and placed into escrow pending completion of the order. If you cancel the order you get your 100 mil back. This new rule heavily discourages buy orders.
I posted comments on the skill set required here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=119843
and comments on the changes from trying the test server here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=118908
ADJUNCT TRADING ENDS:
I think the miner/refiner comments above are accurate and worth noting. There are a lot of players who currently use the market as an adjunct to their normal activities. For example, hunters put weapons and other loot for sale left and right. This kind of casual trading will end and the average player will only place an order when absolutely necessary.
Because of the way they do business players like refiners and ammo manufacturers are going to get killed. Because of this it will be a lot harder to sell ore and buy ammo.
CENTRALIZATION AND LOSS OF LIQUIDITY:
Also, the centralization comment above is right on. Trading will become much more centralized and players will have to travel much farther to buy and sell things and the prices will be a lot worse.
_____________________________________________ I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Droidster
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Posted - 2004.11.01 04:00:00 -
[94]
Answers to the last couple of questions:
ORDER LIMIT: your order limit is the total number of orders you have both buy and sell.
MARGIN TRADING: If you have level 5 you pay no margin. If you have level 0 or 1, 100% margin. Level 2 is 75%, 3 is 50% and 4 is 25%. For example, if you put up a buy order for a Megathron for 100 million isk and you don't have margin trading, the 100 million is IMMEDIATELY deducted from your wallet and placed into escrow pending completion of the order. If you cancel the order you get your 100 mil back. This new rule heavily discourages buy orders.
I posted comments on the skill set required here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=119843
and comments on the changes from trying the test server here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=118908
ADJUNCT TRADING ENDS:
I think the miner/refiner comments above are accurate and worth noting. There are a lot of players who currently use the market as an adjunct to their normal activities. For example, hunters put weapons and other loot for sale left and right. This kind of casual trading will end and the average player will only place an order when absolutely necessary.
Because of the way they do business players like refiners and ammo manufacturers are going to get killed. Because of this it will be a lot harder to sell ore and buy ammo.
CENTRALIZATION AND LOSS OF LIQUIDITY:
Also, the centralization comment above is right on. Trading will become much more centralized and players will have to travel much farther to buy and sell things and the prices will be a lot worse.
_____________________________________________ I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Sable Moran
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Posted - 2004.11.01 12:41:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Droidster
Because of the way they do business players like refiners and ammo manufacturers are going to get killed. Because of this it will be a lot harder to sell ore and buy ammo.
Could you eleborate on this. I'm not entirely sure what is your rationale for thinking that ammo manufacturers would get killed. ----- Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene 5, Moon 4, Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Ammo at affordable prices. |
Sable Moran
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Posted - 2004.11.01 12:41:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Droidster
Because of the way they do business players like refiners and ammo manufacturers are going to get killed. Because of this it will be a lot harder to sell ore and buy ammo.
Could you eleborate on this. I'm not entirely sure what is your rationale for thinking that ammo manufacturers would get killed. ----- Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene 5, Moon 4, Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Ammo at affordable prices. |
DX Cancri
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Posted - 2004.11.01 23:16:00 -
[97]
I think the new Trade skills are going to do wonders for the market. I'm very much looking forward to this change. :-D
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DX Cancri
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Posted - 2004.11.01 23:16:00 -
[98]
I think the new Trade skills are going to do wonders for the market. I'm very much looking forward to this change. :-D
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Ki Shodan
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Posted - 2004.11.02 01:31:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Sable Moran
Could you eleborate on this. I'm not entirely sure what is your rationale for thinking that ammo manufacturers would get killed.
how much ammo types there are? Ammo-manufacturers often have missles too, or? another thing to add to the orderlimit. how do you get your minerals? do you need buy orders for that, too? what about the money, you need to pay for these buy-orders in front? how much orders you can place? you place your products only in one station?
i see dead manufacturers walking. |
Ki Shodan
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Posted - 2004.11.02 01:31:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Sable Moran
Could you eleborate on this. I'm not entirely sure what is your rationale for thinking that ammo manufacturers would get killed.
how much ammo types there are? Ammo-manufacturers often have missles too, or? another thing to add to the orderlimit. how do you get your minerals? do you need buy orders for that, too? what about the money, you need to pay for these buy-orders in front? how much orders you can place? you place your products only in one station?
i see dead manufacturers walking. |
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coldheat
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Posted - 2004.11.02 14:17:00 -
[101]
Time to open market forums and channels and sell old fasion way. Seems this will become most used method kinda outsourcing on non official boards :-). Like in good old days in Earth and Beyond :-)
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coldheat
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Posted - 2004.11.02 14:17:00 -
[102]
Time to open market forums and channels and sell old fasion way. Seems this will become most used method kinda outsourcing on non official boards :-). Like in good old days in Earth and Beyond :-)
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Sable Moran
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Posted - 2004.11.02 14:18:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Ki Shodan
how much ammo types there are? {Snip} you place your products only in one station?
i see dead manufacturers walking.
All those points crossed my mind. And if there'll be a flock of dead manufactures just because of that then I say good riddance. Training a few trade skills to appropriate level to continue selling their ammo is not much of a trouble. If they can't be bothered to train them it's their choice.
But, come shiva Sable's Ammo Shop will still be up and running. It is possible (maybe even probable) that I have to close down the branch office at Stacmon. Also the availability of minerals might cause some temporary shortages on the most popular products but that's about it. ----- Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene 5, Moon 4, Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Ammo at affordable prices. |
Sable Moran
|
Posted - 2004.11.02 14:18:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Ki Shodan
how much ammo types there are? {Snip} you place your products only in one station?
i see dead manufacturers walking.
All those points crossed my mind. And if there'll be a flock of dead manufactures just because of that then I say good riddance. Training a few trade skills to appropriate level to continue selling their ammo is not much of a trouble. If they can't be bothered to train them it's their choice.
But, come shiva Sable's Ammo Shop will still be up and running. It is possible (maybe even probable) that I have to close down the branch office at Stacmon. Also the availability of minerals might cause some temporary shortages on the most popular products but that's about it. ----- Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene 5, Moon 4, Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Ammo at affordable prices. |
Ada Isdead
|
Posted - 2004.11.02 21:36:00 -
[105]
The worrying thing about the new trade skills is that they remove existing capabilitys from the players and add no new features, other than a big time sink.
The real question is, do we want the developers to do this kind of thing, or is this style of "content" a scam?
Suppose that post shiva the devs introduce 'advanced navigation' skills, +5% to speed per ship class (e.g. frigate nav, cruiser nav, etc).
Great you say, but if they follow the trend they've started with the trade skills, they would reduce all ship speeds by 25% at the same time...
Not so great.
So, what are we paying for? Should expansions and patches contain 'new' content, that is content that adds to our existing capabilities?
Or is it acceptable to you that we should be nerfed and timesinked?
Why should we waste time training skills to do things we can already do?
I could understand if the new trade skills only effected trades made outside a station, beacause that would be an additional capability, or if it allowed us to see and place trades in adjecent regions.
Post shiva when the players realise that CCP has taken them for a ride, the devs are going to get one hell of a flameing.
This change makes it harder for newbies - it's now eaiser to scam them beacause they won't have as wide a range of sellers to buy from, and make starting a manufacturing carrer vastly harder (not that the current lab slot situation makes it easy).
and what about the T2 component market? How are all those agent runners and T2 manufacturers going to find each others orders?
If CCP cares about the economy they should remove the new trade skills asap, they should be concentrating on makeing it as easy as possibly for buyers and sellers to find each other and exchange goods for cash, with the new trade skill change we're going to be spending more of our time spaming WTS and WTB on the trade channels.
I really don't think they've thought this through, and as usual we're had no justifcation from the devs on why they made this change.
|
Ada Isdead
|
Posted - 2004.11.02 21:36:00 -
[106]
The worrying thing about the new trade skills is that they remove existing capabilitys from the players and add no new features, other than a big time sink.
The real question is, do we want the developers to do this kind of thing, or is this style of "content" a scam?
Suppose that post shiva the devs introduce 'advanced navigation' skills, +5% to speed per ship class (e.g. frigate nav, cruiser nav, etc).
Great you say, but if they follow the trend they've started with the trade skills, they would reduce all ship speeds by 25% at the same time...
Not so great.
So, what are we paying for? Should expansions and patches contain 'new' content, that is content that adds to our existing capabilities?
Or is it acceptable to you that we should be nerfed and timesinked?
Why should we waste time training skills to do things we can already do?
I could understand if the new trade skills only effected trades made outside a station, beacause that would be an additional capability, or if it allowed us to see and place trades in adjecent regions.
Post shiva when the players realise that CCP has taken them for a ride, the devs are going to get one hell of a flameing.
This change makes it harder for newbies - it's now eaiser to scam them beacause they won't have as wide a range of sellers to buy from, and make starting a manufacturing carrer vastly harder (not that the current lab slot situation makes it easy).
and what about the T2 component market? How are all those agent runners and T2 manufacturers going to find each others orders?
If CCP cares about the economy they should remove the new trade skills asap, they should be concentrating on makeing it as easy as possibly for buyers and sellers to find each other and exchange goods for cash, with the new trade skill change we're going to be spending more of our time spaming WTS and WTB on the trade channels.
I really don't think they've thought this through, and as usual we're had no justifcation from the devs on why they made this change.
|
Jocca Quinn
|
Posted - 2004.11.03 14:13:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Ada Isdead The worrying thing about the new trade skills is that they remove existing capabilitys from the players and add no new features, other than a big time sink.
The real question is, do we want the developers to do this kind of thing, or is this style of "content" a scam?
Suppose that post shiva the devs introduce 'advanced navigation' skills, +5% to speed per ship class (e.g. frigate nav, cruiser nav, etc).
Great you say, but if they follow the trend they've started with the trade skills, they would reduce all ship speeds by 25% at the same time...
Not so great.
So, what are we paying for? Should expansions and patches contain 'new' content, that is content that adds to our existing capabilities?
Or is it acceptable to you that we should be nerfed and timesinked?
Why should we waste time training skills to do things we can already do?
I could understand if the new trade skills only effected trades made outside a station, beacause that would be an additional capability, or if it allowed us to see and place trades in adjecent regions.
Post shiva when the players realise that CCP has taken them for a ride, the devs are going to get one hell of a flameing.
This change makes it harder for newbies - it's now eaiser to scam them beacause they won't have as wide a range of sellers to buy from, and make starting a manufacturing carrer vastly harder (not that the current lab slot situation makes it easy).
and what about the T2 component market? How are all those agent runners and T2 manufacturers going to find each others orders?
If CCP cares about the economy they should remove the new trade skills asap, they should be concentrating on makeing it as easy as possibly for buyers and sellers to find each other and exchange goods for cash, with the new trade skill change we're going to be spending more of our time spaming WTS and WTB on the trade channels.
I really don't think they've thought this through, and as usual we're had no justifcation from the devs on why they made this change.
My thoughts exactly. The new skills are a nerf to our abilites .. simply a timesink to slow us down until really "new" content appears.
JQ
none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free |
Jocca Quinn
|
Posted - 2004.11.03 14:13:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Ada Isdead The worrying thing about the new trade skills is that they remove existing capabilitys from the players and add no new features, other than a big time sink.
The real question is, do we want the developers to do this kind of thing, or is this style of "content" a scam?
Suppose that post shiva the devs introduce 'advanced navigation' skills, +5% to speed per ship class (e.g. frigate nav, cruiser nav, etc).
Great you say, but if they follow the trend they've started with the trade skills, they would reduce all ship speeds by 25% at the same time...
Not so great.
So, what are we paying for? Should expansions and patches contain 'new' content, that is content that adds to our existing capabilities?
Or is it acceptable to you that we should be nerfed and timesinked?
Why should we waste time training skills to do things we can already do?
I could understand if the new trade skills only effected trades made outside a station, beacause that would be an additional capability, or if it allowed us to see and place trades in adjecent regions.
Post shiva when the players realise that CCP has taken them for a ride, the devs are going to get one hell of a flameing.
This change makes it harder for newbies - it's now eaiser to scam them beacause they won't have as wide a range of sellers to buy from, and make starting a manufacturing carrer vastly harder (not that the current lab slot situation makes it easy).
and what about the T2 component market? How are all those agent runners and T2 manufacturers going to find each others orders?
If CCP cares about the economy they should remove the new trade skills asap, they should be concentrating on makeing it as easy as possibly for buyers and sellers to find each other and exchange goods for cash, with the new trade skill change we're going to be spending more of our time spaming WTS and WTB on the trade channels.
I really don't think they've thought this through, and as usual we're had no justifcation from the devs on why they made this change.
My thoughts exactly. The new skills are a nerf to our abilites .. simply a timesink to slow us down until really "new" content appears.
JQ
none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free |
MOOstradamus
|
Posted - 2004.11.04 01:53:00 -
[109]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 04/11/2004 01:56:00
/me drives the 'Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance' all around this thread ...
Margin Trading:
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
|
MOOstradamus
|
Posted - 2004.11.04 01:53:00 -
[110]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 04/11/2004 01:56:00
/me drives the 'Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance' all around this thread ...
Margin Trading:
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
|
|
Milton Smythe
|
Posted - 2004.11.04 03:23:00 -
[111]
I welcome this change.
You can sit in the belts and manage your little industry. (doing something while mining is a big yaay)
The market will be more clean. The silly orders that affects us all.. if only in adding to the laod time of the market, will disappear.
Market has been easy up to now , but there is a huge room to make somethinf of it. to add a new facet to the profession list. A casual customer need not train anything at all. If an item is out there and for sale , the seller will make sure you see it. Even if you need to train these skills it will only be a few days.. a few days the market griefers will be unwilling to put up.
EVE will look more alive. I for one am training these skills even now and I will start by taking them all to level 4 barring wholesale which will sit in my hangar avaiting my attention if I indeed will need it.
I am sure my esteemed competitors will do the same .. at least now they will.
Love it .. hate it , but cope with it. Let us see how it works before we judge it. At least those of you who has not tested it at all on the test server.
|
Milton Smythe
|
Posted - 2004.11.04 03:23:00 -
[112]
I welcome this change.
You can sit in the belts and manage your little industry. (doing something while mining is a big yaay)
The market will be more clean. The silly orders that affects us all.. if only in adding to the laod time of the market, will disappear.
Market has been easy up to now , but there is a huge room to make somethinf of it. to add a new facet to the profession list. A casual customer need not train anything at all. If an item is out there and for sale , the seller will make sure you see it. Even if you need to train these skills it will only be a few days.. a few days the market griefers will be unwilling to put up.
EVE will look more alive. I for one am training these skills even now and I will start by taking them all to level 4 barring wholesale which will sit in my hangar avaiting my attention if I indeed will need it.
I am sure my esteemed competitors will do the same .. at least now they will.
Love it .. hate it , but cope with it. Let us see how it works before we judge it. At least those of you who has not tested it at all on the test server.
|
Vaar
|
Posted - 2004.11.05 16:38:00 -
[113]
Come on guys,
I for one love this change. I think of myself as a trader personally as I get all the raw materials and sell the final product without ever touching production. As it is right now everyone has the same ability to use the market and surely that is not right. No one here is shouting that we all should be able to have Perfect Refining, Mining, Production, Research skills etc. So why if you have to learn those skills are these new Trade skills unfair. Plus these skills really don't take that long to train.
|
Vaar
|
Posted - 2004.11.05 16:38:00 -
[114]
Come on guys,
I for one love this change. I think of myself as a trader personally as I get all the raw materials and sell the final product without ever touching production. As it is right now everyone has the same ability to use the market and surely that is not right. No one here is shouting that we all should be able to have Perfect Refining, Mining, Production, Research skills etc. So why if you have to learn those skills are these new Trade skills unfair. Plus these skills really don't take that long to train.
|
DrummelHolmen
|
Posted - 2004.11.07 21:08:00 -
[115]
What can I say...CCP this is the best you guys have done since EVE hit retail...finally I can become a trader, "soon" with 29 attribute points in Charisma and theese skills will be trained in no time :P
It's finally a profession to be a trader. For you guys that are miners/refiners and all other "professions" that have existed in EVE for some time now, I take 40% of all profit you do, just send me an eve-mail
|
DrummelHolmen
|
Posted - 2004.11.07 21:08:00 -
[116]
What can I say...CCP this is the best you guys have done since EVE hit retail...finally I can become a trader, "soon" with 29 attribute points in Charisma and theese skills will be trained in no time :P
It's finally a profession to be a trader. For you guys that are miners/refiners and all other "professions" that have existed in EVE for some time now, I take 40% of all profit you do, just send me an eve-mail
|
Khirion El'Laputa
|
Posted - 2004.11.09 09:37:00 -
[117]
Im noob... i have 500k skill points, my charisma is 10 (yup... its quite high for a noob). Im an average miner. Do i have any chance of selling my ore? Any chance? Do you think, that i can afford buying skills for 37M? Do you realy think that learning this skills (not mining skills) is good for me?
I realy don't know if this changes are good. May be for expirienced players its not a big deal... for me it is.. it will kill any proffit for me. Not to mention that i could have problem with finding buyers for ore, because most of manufactuers (wich buy most ore), will have orders visible locally.
Anyway its allways the small that are hurt the most. Khirion
|
Khirion El'Laputa
|
Posted - 2004.11.09 09:37:00 -
[118]
Im noob... i have 500k skill points, my charisma is 10 (yup... its quite high for a noob). Im an average miner. Do i have any chance of selling my ore? Any chance? Do you think, that i can afford buying skills for 37M? Do you realy think that learning this skills (not mining skills) is good for me?
I realy don't know if this changes are good. May be for expirienced players its not a big deal... for me it is.. it will kill any proffit for me. Not to mention that i could have problem with finding buyers for ore, because most of manufactuers (wich buy most ore), will have orders visible locally.
Anyway its allways the small that are hurt the most. Khirion
|
Jocca Quinn
|
Posted - 2004.11.09 16:57:00 -
[119]
I'm sure I saw the ability to make a buy order from the corp account on the test server.
Can anyone tell me if you can make a SELL order from the corp account. ie so the proceeds from the sale go directly into the corp account
JQ
none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free |
Jocca Quinn
|
Posted - 2004.11.09 16:57:00 -
[120]
I'm sure I saw the ability to make a buy order from the corp account on the test server.
Can anyone tell me if you can make a SELL order from the corp account. ie so the proceeds from the sale go directly into the corp account
JQ
none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free |
|
Neurotic Cat
|
Posted - 2004.11.09 22:45:00 -
[121]
Seems to me that the n00b miner that wants to sell his haul region wide should join a corp that has one guy with maxed out trading skills. The corp buys the rocks, the n00b heads back out to the belt, and everyone wins.
Trade skills build team work.
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Neurotic Cat
|
Posted - 2004.11.09 22:45:00 -
[122]
Seems to me that the n00b miner that wants to sell his haul region wide should join a corp that has one guy with maxed out trading skills. The corp buys the rocks, the n00b heads back out to the belt, and everyone wins.
Trade skills build team work.
|
Ki Shodan
|
Posted - 2004.11.10 07:50:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Neurotic Cat
Trade skills build team work.
see it the other way round: Trade Skills kills the freelancers, that have not enough money in reallife to have a 2nd account with a hauler and a 3rd with a trader.
it kills the nOObs since they can not do trade on their own, and many will get exploited by the corp-broker .... (and yes, not all corps do exploit their members, but quite a lot do.) |
Ki Shodan
|
Posted - 2004.11.10 07:50:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Neurotic Cat
Trade skills build team work.
see it the other way round: Trade Skills kills the freelancers, that have not enough money in reallife to have a 2nd account with a hauler and a 3rd with a trader.
it kills the nOObs since they can not do trade on their own, and many will get exploited by the corp-broker .... (and yes, not all corps do exploit their members, but quite a lot do.) |
Neurotic Cat
|
Posted - 2004.11.11 02:47:00 -
[125]
>>(and yes, not all corps do exploit their members, but quite a lot do.)
Find a good corp that will take care of you without exploiting you.
Feeling exploited by your corp? Quit and hire some mercenaries to correct their very bad manners.
"If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the Sharks."
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Neurotic Cat
|
Posted - 2004.11.11 02:47:00 -
[126]
>>(and yes, not all corps do exploit their members, but quite a lot do.)
Find a good corp that will take care of you without exploiting you.
Feeling exploited by your corp? Quit and hire some mercenaries to correct their very bad manners.
"If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the Sharks."
|
Harisdrop
|
Posted - 2004.11.11 15:00:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Jocca Quinn I'm sure I saw the ability to make a buy order from the corp account on the test server.
Can anyone tell me if you can make a SELL order from the corp account. ie so the proceeds from the sale go directly into the corp account
JQ
Yes , Yes --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
|
Posted - 2004.11.11 15:00:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Jocca Quinn I'm sure I saw the ability to make a buy order from the corp account on the test server.
Can anyone tell me if you can make a SELL order from the corp account. ie so the proceeds from the sale go directly into the corp account
JQ
Yes , Yes --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Ki Shodan
|
Posted - 2004.11.12 13:08:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Neurotic Cat
Find a good corp that will take care of you without exploiting you.
Feeling exploited by your corp? Quit and hire some mercenaries to correct their very bad manners.
most nOObs dunno, that they are exploited. and when they have realized it, they have no money to hire mercs. :-)
on the other hand i heard stories about poor corps that once they have given their members Battle Ships were abbandon by these members. :D
"the greatest enemy of freedom is the lucky slave. (erich m³hsam)" |
Ki Shodan
|
Posted - 2004.11.12 13:08:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Neurotic Cat
Find a good corp that will take care of you without exploiting you.
Feeling exploited by your corp? Quit and hire some mercenaries to correct their very bad manners.
most nOObs dunno, that they are exploited. and when they have realized it, they have no money to hire mercs. :-)
on the other hand i heard stories about poor corps that once they have given their members Battle Ships were abbandon by these members. :D
"the greatest enemy of freedom is the lucky slave. (erich m³hsam)" |
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Mr Gimlet
|
Posted - 2004.11.13 12:20:00 -
[131]
This seems a good thread to get answers on trading. I think i pretty much get the idea of all these new skills except margin trading. Other than it seems to be something to do with escrow i dont realy understand what the description is going on about. Anyone help me on that? as i dont want to spend 20 mill on a skill that might not do anything for me
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Mr Gimlet
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Posted - 2004.11.13 12:20:00 -
[132]
This seems a good thread to get answers on trading. I think i pretty much get the idea of all these new skills except margin trading. Other than it seems to be something to do with escrow i dont realy understand what the description is going on about. Anyone help me on that? as i dont want to spend 20 mill on a skill that might not do anything for me
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Decairn
|
Posted - 2004.11.14 00:24:00 -
[133]
Well, I have managed to dump 1 million points in trade skills since they went in. Have all but margin trading and wholesale, all at level 4 except trade to level 5. So my take on it is it really isn't a big deal at all, the only thing that hurts is paying out the large amount of ISK for it. If I were a new or poorer player I can see some serious thought being put into which ones to buy in order to reap maximum benefit, other than that its just a little time to get them up to snuff.
--Decairn |
Decairn
|
Posted - 2004.11.14 00:24:00 -
[134]
Well, I have managed to dump 1 million points in trade skills since they went in. Have all but margin trading and wholesale, all at level 4 except trade to level 5. So my take on it is it really isn't a big deal at all, the only thing that hurts is paying out the large amount of ISK for it. If I were a new or poorer player I can see some serious thought being put into which ones to buy in order to reap maximum benefit, other than that its just a little time to get them up to snuff.
--Decairn |
Sable Moran
|
Posted - 2004.11.14 10:47:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Mr Gimlet I think i pretty much get the idea of all these new skills except margin trading. Other than it seems to be something to do with escrow i dont realy understand what the description is going on about. Anyone help me on that?
If you don't need _large_ buy orders (worth tens of millions) don't bother with that skill.
In shiva when you put up a buy order you have to pay it up front. If you don't have the margin trading skill you will have to pay the whole balance of the buy order. With the skill you have to pay only a certain persentage up front. ----- Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene 5, Moon 4, Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Ammo at affordable prices. |
Sable Moran
|
Posted - 2004.11.14 10:47:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Mr Gimlet I think i pretty much get the idea of all these new skills except margin trading. Other than it seems to be something to do with escrow i dont realy understand what the description is going on about. Anyone help me on that?
If you don't need _large_ buy orders (worth tens of millions) don't bother with that skill.
In shiva when you put up a buy order you have to pay it up front. If you don't have the margin trading skill you will have to pay the whole balance of the buy order. With the skill you have to pay only a certain persentage up front. ----- Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene 5, Moon 4, Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Ammo at affordable prices. |
Top Dog
|
Posted - 2004.11.14 17:18:00 -
[137]
I think there is a lot of unecessary worrying regarding how the market will work, but I believe alot will depend on professional traders making the market liquid for everyone - just like in RL markets. If there is profit for the trader, as a profession, then it will work.
Take the example of noob miner. He mines, refines then places a sell order in his local station - say Mex @ 12isk/unit. Now that mex will only be "seen" by those in the station. However, the canny trader, who has all skills to the required level will place a region wide buy order for mex @ say 10 isk. The noob miner can see this "demand" and decides to sell his mex for 10/unit. The canny trader will get this trade at 10 isk/unit. He can then immediately place a region-wide sell order on the same qty of mex at say 12isk/unit (without leaving his station) and it will be visible to everyone in the region. If he sells it he makes 20% profit/unit. Thats what a broker does in RL and that how this market works. The miner, fighter producer etc, if they dont want to train up the trade skills will have to sell to a trader who takes the risk and hopefully the profit to sell it onto a wider community because he has the required skills.
For items that are regularly traded (e.g. minerals) the market will be fairly liquid, but for more specialised items that dont have a trader "buying" them, then the market will be quite illiquid. Illiquid = high prices/lack of supply.
The interesting perspective on this is that the new breed of professional traders will be competing with each other via their region wide buy orders - for your goods, to sell onto your eventual customers - just as it should be.
Now I hear the cries of "less profit" for the miner, fighter etc, but think about the additions that Shiva brings - higher mining yields, mining barges, lvl4 agents etc . All this will generate more isk for the mining & fighting professions, but some of that will need to be foresaken to the trader with lower "sells" on the new market.
The principle that CCP is sticking to, and one that I think is working well is the road to profession specialisation. The new trade skills will further enhance this.
|
Top Dog
|
Posted - 2004.11.14 17:18:00 -
[138]
I think there is a lot of unecessary worrying regarding how the market will work, but I believe alot will depend on professional traders making the market liquid for everyone - just like in RL markets. If there is profit for the trader, as a profession, then it will work.
Take the example of noob miner. He mines, refines then places a sell order in his local station - say Mex @ 12isk/unit. Now that mex will only be "seen" by those in the station. However, the canny trader, who has all skills to the required level will place a region wide buy order for mex @ say 10 isk. The noob miner can see this "demand" and decides to sell his mex for 10/unit. The canny trader will get this trade at 10 isk/unit. He can then immediately place a region-wide sell order on the same qty of mex at say 12isk/unit (without leaving his station) and it will be visible to everyone in the region. If he sells it he makes 20% profit/unit. Thats what a broker does in RL and that how this market works. The miner, fighter producer etc, if they dont want to train up the trade skills will have to sell to a trader who takes the risk and hopefully the profit to sell it onto a wider community because he has the required skills.
For items that are regularly traded (e.g. minerals) the market will be fairly liquid, but for more specialised items that dont have a trader "buying" them, then the market will be quite illiquid. Illiquid = high prices/lack of supply.
The interesting perspective on this is that the new breed of professional traders will be competing with each other via their region wide buy orders - for your goods, to sell onto your eventual customers - just as it should be.
Now I hear the cries of "less profit" for the miner, fighter etc, but think about the additions that Shiva brings - higher mining yields, mining barges, lvl4 agents etc . All this will generate more isk for the mining & fighting professions, but some of that will need to be foresaken to the trader with lower "sells" on the new market.
The principle that CCP is sticking to, and one that I think is working well is the road to profession specialisation. The new trade skills will further enhance this.
|
Barbicane
|
Posted - 2004.11.14 18:31:00 -
[139]
Top Dog, Well put. I couldn't have said it better myself. I just want to add that the new trading skills gives is a great opportunity for new players who want to work as traders. It takes approx. 1 mil skill points to be a top-notch trader. That's on par with what it takes to be a good miner or agent runner, or an ok scientist or fighter. Finally trading will become a true profession. I've been waiting for this for 1.5 years now. |
Barbicane
|
Posted - 2004.11.14 18:31:00 -
[140]
Top Dog, Well put. I couldn't have said it better myself. I just want to add that the new trading skills gives is a great opportunity for new players who want to work as traders. It takes approx. 1 mil skill points to be a top-notch trader. That's on par with what it takes to be a good miner or agent runner, or an ok scientist or fighter. Finally trading will become a true profession. I've been waiting for this for 1.5 years now. |
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Qutsemnie
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Posted - 2004.11.15 10:05:00 -
[141]
Has this been tested with a massive seeding? I cant help but be suspicious of an already slow market being even slower at the region level when you can no longer optimize by region. Maybe they have it well in hand though!
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Qutsemnie
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Posted - 2004.11.15 10:05:00 -
[142]
Has this been tested with a massive seeding? I cant help but be suspicious of an already slow market being even slower at the region level when you can no longer optimize by region. Maybe they have it well in hand though!
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Excavation Svcs
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Posted - 2004.11.15 13:32:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Barbicane Top Dog, Well put. I couldn't have said it better myself. I just want to add that the new trading skills gives is a great opportunity for new players who want to work as traders. It takes approx. 1 mil skill points to be a top-notch trader. That's on par with what it takes to be a good miner or agent runner, or an ok scientist or fighter. Finally trading will become a true profession. I've been waiting for this for 1.5 years now.
Theres only one problem. Trading doesnt take much time. You scout the market for a couple of hours untill you know the prices. Then you place your little amount of orders for another hour. Then you wait days till they get executed. You can't be only a trader in EVE. And the need for training now makes it impossible for new players to be a trader. They NEED combat or mining skills do actually play the game. Also why have you been waiting 1.5 years? Everything you can do with the new skills you could have done better in the past year. And more.
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Excavation Svcs
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Posted - 2004.11.15 13:32:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Barbicane Top Dog, Well put. I couldn't have said it better myself. I just want to add that the new trading skills gives is a great opportunity for new players who want to work as traders. It takes approx. 1 mil skill points to be a top-notch trader. That's on par with what it takes to be a good miner or agent runner, or an ok scientist or fighter. Finally trading will become a true profession. I've been waiting for this for 1.5 years now.
Theres only one problem. Trading doesnt take much time. You scout the market for a couple of hours untill you know the prices. Then you place your little amount of orders for another hour. Then you wait days till they get executed. You can't be only a trader in EVE. And the need for training now makes it impossible for new players to be a trader. They NEED combat or mining skills do actually play the game. Also why have you been waiting 1.5 years? Everything you can do with the new skills you could have done better in the past year. And more.
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Barbicane
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Posted - 2004.11.15 18:01:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Excavation Svcs
Originally by: Barbicane Top Dog, Well put. I couldn't have said it better myself...
Theres only one problem. Trading doesnt take much time. You scout the market for a couple of hours untill you know the prices. Then you place your little amount of orders for another hour. Then you wait days till they get executed. You can't be only a trader in EVE. And the need for training now makes it impossible for new players to be a trader. They NEED combat or mining skills do actually play the game. Also why have you been waiting 1.5 years? Everything you can do with the new skills you could have done better in the past year. And more.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Trading takes an immense amount of time. I easily spend 3-4 hours per day on it, and I could spend a lot more if I didn't have to work, sleep, and eat . Part of the problem is of course the huge competition. Since everyone can do it, a trader has to continually monitor his buy and sell orders to make sure he remains competitive.
Several of these "new" skills were actually available 1.5 years ago when the game started. But they didn't do anything. People who got them through character creation and trained them received nothing for the effort. That's what I meant by trading finally becoming a true profession.
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Barbicane
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Posted - 2004.11.15 18:01:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Excavation Svcs
Originally by: Barbicane Top Dog, Well put. I couldn't have said it better myself...
Theres only one problem. Trading doesnt take much time. You scout the market for a couple of hours untill you know the prices. Then you place your little amount of orders for another hour. Then you wait days till they get executed. You can't be only a trader in EVE. And the need for training now makes it impossible for new players to be a trader. They NEED combat or mining skills do actually play the game. Also why have you been waiting 1.5 years? Everything you can do with the new skills you could have done better in the past year. And more.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Trading takes an immense amount of time. I easily spend 3-4 hours per day on it, and I could spend a lot more if I didn't have to work, sleep, and eat . Part of the problem is of course the huge competition. Since everyone can do it, a trader has to continually monitor his buy and sell orders to make sure he remains competitive.
Several of these "new" skills were actually available 1.5 years ago when the game started. But they didn't do anything. People who got them through character creation and trained them received nothing for the effort. That's what I meant by trading finally becoming a true profession.
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Antione Allyne
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Posted - 2004.11.16 18:13:00 -
[147]
Here's a question for 'ya...if you don't have Procurement and Visibility, just Trade...and you set up a "sell" order, then someone sets up a remote "buy" order that just happens to match your asking price, won't the trade be settled? If that's the case, then don't worry too much about all of the new skills. Leave that to the specialized traders. Just create honest sell orders and all will be well. It will sell eventually, even if no one can see it outside of the station.
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Antione Allyne
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Posted - 2004.11.16 18:13:00 -
[148]
Here's a question for 'ya...if you don't have Procurement and Visibility, just Trade...and you set up a "sell" order, then someone sets up a remote "buy" order that just happens to match your asking price, won't the trade be settled? If that's the case, then don't worry too much about all of the new skills. Leave that to the specialized traders. Just create honest sell orders and all will be well. It will sell eventually, even if no one can see it outside of the station.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.11.17 17:26:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Harisdrop on 17/11/2004 17:30:04
Originally by: Antione Allyne Here's a question for 'ya...if you don't have Procurement and Visibility, just Trade...and you set up a "sell" order, then someone sets up a remote "buy" order that just happens to match your asking price, won't the trade be settled? If that's the case, then don't worry too much about all of the new skills. Leave that to the specialized traders. Just create honest sell orders and all will be well. It will sell eventually, even if no one can see it outside of the station.
That the basic concept. But what more than likely will happen is you dont even need to set an order. I believe there will be buy orders region wide to buy stuff. Most orders will be honest cause orders will be hard to come by.
I plan on setting buy orders at certain Corporation stations which I have high standing too, to get the most out of my orders. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.11.17 17:26:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Harisdrop on 17/11/2004 17:30:04
Originally by: Antione Allyne Here's a question for 'ya...if you don't have Procurement and Visibility, just Trade...and you set up a "sell" order, then someone sets up a remote "buy" order that just happens to match your asking price, won't the trade be settled? If that's the case, then don't worry too much about all of the new skills. Leave that to the specialized traders. Just create honest sell orders and all will be well. It will sell eventually, even if no one can see it outside of the station.
That the basic concept. But what more than likely will happen is you dont even need to set an order. I believe there will be buy orders region wide to buy stuff. Most orders will be honest cause orders will be hard to come by.
I plan on setting buy orders at certain Corporation stations which I have high standing too, to get the most out of my orders. --------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
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Top Dog
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Posted - 2004.11.19 11:16:00 -
[151]
Costs for trades will also rise - pushing prices up or perhaps forcing people to trade via escrow. Say you are selling a Scorp BS. Normal cost is around 62M. You will pay 1% transaction tax on it if you sell it I believe (but skills can reduce this to 0.5%) - which is around 600K - a significant proportion of your profits (perhaps 10-20% of profit). In addition you also have a market order cost (which is also 1% I think) just to place the order. Not sure how this works, but it seems to me that in this instance you would pay 600K just to place your Scorp BS onthe market. If you take it off for whatever reason, I am think you wil not be able to recover that. So bu my reckoning, you are looking at 2% of market order cost if you sell anything via the new market (less if you have skills trained up). That could be 1.2M in this instance.
Happy for someone to correct me on that.
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Top Dog
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Posted - 2004.11.19 11:16:00 -
[152]
Costs for trades will also rise - pushing prices up or perhaps forcing people to trade via escrow. Say you are selling a Scorp BS. Normal cost is around 62M. You will pay 1% transaction tax on it if you sell it I believe (but skills can reduce this to 0.5%) - which is around 600K - a significant proportion of your profits (perhaps 10-20% of profit). In addition you also have a market order cost (which is also 1% I think) just to place the order. Not sure how this works, but it seems to me that in this instance you would pay 600K just to place your Scorp BS onthe market. If you take it off for whatever reason, I am think you wil not be able to recover that. So bu my reckoning, you are looking at 2% of market order cost if you sell anything via the new market (less if you have skills trained up). That could be 1.2M in this instance.
Happy for someone to correct me on that.
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