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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Annihilate.
Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:28:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 15/09/2009 12:29:21
the demand of T2 ships is far too high for T2 BPO owners to have any impact really, it's only the ships that aren't used much (things like Vultures) that really come down in price.
I mean, if all the T2 BPOs are building 20 Cerbs a day, dosen't mean a whole lot when 200 are being bought (just an example)
the real bottleneck these days is moon materials. I'm sure having a T2 BPO is nice, but it's nothing against a hi-end
- Malyutka (The Virus) - |
Kappas.
Galaxy Punks
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:34:00 -
[32]
I know this is a troll alt thread but I'll reply anyway - the majority of people with t2 bpos have bought them, so why penalise people who have spent perhaps tens of billions to acquire something?
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Maverick77
Ecky Thump Ltd
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:37:00 -
[33]
OMG not another thread about T2 BPO's .... if you don't like it go play WoW.
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:42:00 -
[34]
 Originally by: Rellik B00n
****ing idiots of course they need removing.
Big proof a maturity here, sure gives you more credibility.
Quote:
its been done to death and CCP have proved that whilst they can completely alter something like rig BPOs overnight without caring they are far to scared of T2 BPO owners to make the right move.
So, according to you CCP isn't afraid of affecting thousands of players, yet is afraid of affecting hundreds of them. Nice logic you have here....
Quote:
The only people fighting to keep them are the people that own them.
I don't have one, but I don't want CCP to remove them.
You still haven't answered the big question: Why should CCP do it?
The "no income should be safe in a station" is the most valid one I heard yet, but it still fail. Because every T1 BPC is just as safe, as is datacore farming. Should we remove all of that from the game as well?
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:52:00 -
[35]
T2 BPO production is profitable due to better margins than invention.
Invention production is profitable due to better volumes than T2 BPOs.
With high demand items invention is king, and low demand items are probably only produced because T2 BPO holders can make a good mark-up due to the lack of invention competition.
Not really sure what the problem is. Each system has advantages and disadvantage.
アニメ漫画です
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:54:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kappas.
I know this is a troll alt thread but I'll reply anyway - the majority of people with t2 bpos have bought them, so why penalise people who have spent perhaps tens of billions to acquire something?
Because their so stupid to pay that much ISK for them, requiring several years to balance out the investment before they start making profits? Can't leave stupidity unpunished, now can we? 
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Ideas for: Mining
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Lady Lard
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:54:00 -
[37]
CCP have nerfed
Drones
Armageddons without stacking penalties
MWDs(only 1 at a time)
Titans
High alpha weapon systems(doubled hp of all ships)
Motherships
Warp Core stabilizers
Fast ships
Carriers
Mining
Complexes
and more
They will nerf t2 bpos too. The only people who will whine are the t2 bpo owners who will whine just like the Titan pilots, the dominix pilot, the tempest pilot, the miner, the complex runner, the warp core stab user, and so on before them.
Eve is still here.
It will affect an extremely small amount of people. Everyone else will just use invention and carry on like nothing happened.
Eve will still be here after t2 bpos are nerfed.
Invention have made t2 bpos outdated and unnecessary and like the useless items before them they too will become extinct.
Those who do not adapt becomes victims of Evolution. |
Comrade Commizzar
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:58:00 -
[38]
BPO's should be removed for two basic reasons...
1) It is inherently bad game design to build into a game any "advantage" mechanism that is not universally available to or capable of being achieved by ALL players in the game. (The principle of a "level playing field".)
2) The fact that the BPO's can be bought and sold only makes matters worse because this means that the strategically important BPO's will eventually migrate into the hands of a few alliances which will permanently bias ship production costs in their favor, giving them an advantage in any "war of attrition".
As another poster above mentioned, BPO's are not the only problem in Eve. The static nature of non-depleting moon mining operations is even more of an imbalance problem than the BPO's.
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:00:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Banana Torres on 15/09/2009 13:00:01
Originally by: Maverick77
OMG not another thread about T2 BPO's .... if you don't like it go play WoW.
I play both, of course, and currently I'm on the Aion beta too.
And of the three Eve Online is the only one that gives one set of players (t2 BPO holders) an advantage over another set of players (inventors). An advantage that the inventors can do nothing about.
Not very PvP, is it?
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:02:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Banana Torres
of the three Eve Online is the only one that gives one set of players (t2 BPO holders) an advantage over another set of players (inventors). An advantage that the inventors can do nothing about.
Then again, as mentioned, it also gives one set of players (inventors) an advantage over another set of players (BPO holders) that the BPO holders cannot match, so it balances out… 
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
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PH03N1X1
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:13:00 -
[41]
I got 1 T2 Drone BPO, don't have the skills to use it though 
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:16:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Banana Torres
I play both, of course, and currently I'm on the Aion beta too.
And of the three Eve Online is the only one that gives one set of players (t2 BPO holders) an advantage over another set of players (inventors). An advantage that the inventors can do nothing about.
Not very PvP, is it?
Then invention should be removed because it has an unfair volume production advantage .. right?
The system is okay because both production methods are profitable in different ways.
Ultimately price in high volume items is dictated by inventors, and by BPO holders in low volume items. In both cases consumer benefits from the system as it is.
アニメ漫画です
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Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:16:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Banana Torres
of the three Eve Online is the only one that gives one set of players (t2 BPO holders) an advantage over another set of players (inventors). An advantage that the inventors can do nothing about.
Then again, as mentioned, it also gives one set of players (inventors) an advantage over another set of players (BPO holders) that the BPO holders cannot match, so it balances outā
i think the difference is that bpo holders can become inventors if they wish to, while inventors cannot just become t2 bpo holders (unless a bpo holder is willing to sell their bpo to them).
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:18:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Sun Clausewitz on 15/09/2009 13:19:49
Simple solution to T2 BPO's
1) Get rid of them
2) Make them available for purchase
3) Make it so you can "invent" a T2 BPO from a T1 BPO
and no matter how much you deny it, T2 BPO's do have a MAJOR effect on T2 prices!
Pick Three:
Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success |
Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:22:00 -
[45]
I say no to the tech 2 bpo removal
I peferr a possible .1% chance on invention with 100x the materials required. Give the egg heads something to waste thier money on.
Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 1SEP09
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:23:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Julian Lynq
i think the difference is that bpo holders can become inventors if they wish to, while inventors cannot just become t2 bpo holders (unless a bpo holder is willing to sell their bpo to them).
But if as claimed BPOs are such a huge, game breaking even, advantage - why would they choose to take up invention?
Could it be that invention offers a profitable advantage?
アニメ漫画です
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:25:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Banana Torres
of the three Eve Online is the only one that gives one set of players (t2 BPO holders) an advantage over another set of players (inventors). An advantage that the inventors can do nothing about.
Then again, as mentioned, it also gives one set of players (inventors) an advantage over another set of players (BPO holders) that the BPO holders cannot match, so it balances outā
i think the difference is that bpo holders can become inventors if they wish to, while inventors cannot just become t2 bpo holders (unless a bpo holder is willing to sell their bpo to them).
T2 BPOs are so awesome that the owners need to resort to invention?
God, the naked and obvious envy in this thread is sickening. Waah waah it's not FAIR! Well boo hoo. Man up and get one for yourself if you think they're that awesome. They are available; you just have to offer what they're worth.
Too much?
Too bad.
I dont recall any promise that EvE would be fair. A player who started in '03 will have an SP total an 06 can never match. Unfair? Well if the 06 can muster up the 50 bill or so to buy an 03 character, he can match.
It's been said a hundred times, but apparently that's not enough, so let's have it one more time. T2 BPOs are not what limit invention profits. Compare the profits on HICs and HACs, for instance.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Annihilate.
Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:32:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz
and no matter how much you deny it, T2 BPO's do have a MAJOR effect on T2 prices!
saying it dosen't make it true.
As said a bunch of times, the only prices significantly affected by T2 bpos are the things nobody wants anyway (Vultures, Precision Missiles, etc)
volume of stuff otherwise made by T2 BPOs is really just a drop in the ocean compared to demand, it has basically zero effect on price. But really, if said T2 BPOs were removed the the builders would go on to mass invention instead and be injecting MORE T2 into the market than they were before.
So it wouldn't do a thing really.
- Malyutka (The Virus) - |
JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:35:00 -
[49]
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 15/09/2009 13:36:31
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 15/09/2009 13:35:27
To all poeple that says that t2 bpo are useless and invention is better. Why not get t2 bpo get removed from game. WE WILL MAKE A FAVOR TO ALL THOSE STUPID PEOPLE THAT USES A T2 BPO FOR PRODUCTION INSTEAD OF INVENTION.
And.
Originally by: Abrazzar
Edited by: Abrazzar on 15/09/2009 13:07:17
Originally by: Kappas.
I know this is a troll alt thread but I'll reply anyway - the majority of people with t2 bpos have bought them, so why penalise people who have spent perhaps tens of billions to acquire something?
Because they're so stupid to pay that much ISK for them, requiring several years to balance out the investment before they start making profits? Can't leave stupidity unpunished, now can we?
That would be my favortie 
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Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:38:00 -
[50]
i think my post was misinterpreted here.
i replied to someone arguing that inventors also have advantages over t2 bpo holders because they can produce greater numbers.
my point was that it is not really an advantage for the inventors, because t2 bpo holders could, shall they really wish to, also have this advantage by becomming inventors, while inventors can not take on the advantage that bpo holders have.
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azeral kulik
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:06:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 15/09/2009 12:31:31
Originally by: Newsflash
and how many bpo you/your main/your alts have? surely sound like bpo owner.
Oh let's see hereā
I have a medium CDFE BPO, a medium Anti-EM Screen BPO, a medium Trimark BPO, a medium Anti-Exp Pump BPO, a small Aux trusters BPO, a small Polycarb BPOā oh, and a full set of small hybrid ammo BPOs.
I also have exactly one char: This one.
I also also know how much large an influence T2 BPOs have on the market: ****-all.
Now what? You sure sound like a presumptuous twit.
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
T2 BPO dont use research slots, being 2x time efficent per manufacturing slot being 40% cheaper to make ( ships), no need to make copies ( you need pos or 1 week wait ).
No, I'm afraid you've got that quite wrong: BPOs have an extraordinary need to make copies because manufacturing from a BPO is a serial task. You first get one item. Then anoher. Then another (or possibly, in a loooooong while, three at once). With BPCs, you get 3 in one go because you can run them in parallel, thus reacting quickly to market changes without having to tie up production facilities, logistics (and in some cases storage) on long-term speculations and large (potentially unused) stockpiles.
you must still make alot of profit though otherwise you wouldnt have them.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:11:00 -
[52]
Originally by: azeral kulik
you must still make alot of profit though otherwise you wouldnt have them.
What are you referring to? My T1 rig BPOs?
No, not much profit there (now, when the first rush is over ). They're mainly for personal usage.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:11:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Banana Torres
of the three Eve Online is the only one that gives one set of players (t2 BPO holders) an advantage over another set of players (inventors). An advantage that the inventors can do nothing about.
Then again, as mentioned, it also gives one set of players (inventors) an advantage over another set of players (BPO holders) that the BPO holders cannot match, so it balances outā
That is just bollox.
A t2 BPO holder can invent too.
If you are going to spout bollox, please make it so that I have to engage more than two brain cells to refute it.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:15:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Banana Torres
That is just bollox.
A t2 BPO holder can invent too.
…and an inventor can go out and buy a T2 BPO, just like most of the current BPO holders.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:22:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Banana Torres
That is just bollox.
A t2 BPO holder can invent too.
āand an inventor can go out and buy a T2 BPO, just like most of the current BPO holders.
a bpo holder can become an inventor as he wishes.
he could make a decision for a certain item and be going tommorow.
an inventor cannot do that.
he needs the luck of someone selling him his bpo. and he does not have the choice that the bpo holder has. some t2 bpo's are just "priceless" and not ever being sold.
overall an inventor needs to put much more effort into becoming a t2 bpo holder and produce from it in a profitable way than what it takes for a bpo holder to become an efficient inventor.
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ceaon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:28:00 -
[56]
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:39:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Banana Torres
That is just bollox.
A t2 BPO holder can invent too.
āand an inventor can go out and buy a T2 BPO, just like most of the current BPO holders.
a bpo holder can become an inventor as he wishes.
he could make a decision for a certain item and be going tommorow.
an inventor cannot do that.
he needs the luck of someone selling him his bpo. and he does not have the choice that the bpo holder has. some t2 bpo's are just "priceless" and not ever being sold.
overall an inventor needs to put much more effort into becoming a t2 bpo holder and produce from it in a profitable way than what it takes for a bpo holder to become an efficient inventor.
But that is sort of the same hurdles I would have to go through if I want to fly a titan or even a mother ship. Removing T2 BPO's would be removing the "high end" goal for many manufacturers and there aren't many of those in that part of game already.
I would maybe support removal of T2 BPO's if CCP introduced new and exciting high end features for manufacturing and research that doesn't necessarily require a POS.
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Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:44:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Comrade Commizzar
BPO's should be removed for two basic reasons...
1) It is inherently bad game design to build into a game any "advantage" mechanism that is not universally available to or capable of being achieved by ALL players in the game. (The principle of a "level playing field".)
Your "level playing field" also lead to the suppression of event ships, and everyone starting with 100 millions SP, because it's unfair that older players should have an advantage over new ones, right?
Quote:
2) The fact that the BPO's can be bought and sold only makes matters worse because this means that the strategically important BPO's will eventually migrate into the hands of a few alliances which will permanently bias ship production costs in their favor, giving them an advantage in any "war of attrition".
A/ It's already the case, has been for years. Most T2 ships BPOs belong to 0.0 corps.
B/ The attrition argument is crap. Wars are won or lost with morale. Isk doesn't matter.
Quote:
As another poster above mentioned, BPO's are not the only problem in Eve. The static nature of non-depleting moon mining operations is even more of an imbalance problem than the BPO's.
R64 moons need a nerf, yes. But T2 bpos are such a non-factor at corp/alliance level that considering them a signifiant advantage is being really ignorant of null-sec management.
As an exemple, one minmatar outpost in a decent system with about 100 real players based in will bring you enough mineral with a 10% reprocess tax to equal or exceed the income from 3 HAS BPOs.
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Coch Draig
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:44:00 -
[59]
Brown sauce anyone?
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.15 15:04:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Banana Torres
That is just bollox.
A t2 BPO holder can invent too.
āand an inventor can go out and buy a T2 BPO, just like most of the current BPO holders.
1. There are more inventors that t2 BPOs.
2. By buying a t2 BPO the player player becomes a t2 BPO holder which is good for him. But because of 1 is not a solution that all inventors can follow.
It is like saying to true PvPers, there a number of indestructable implants that give a advantage over people without them. But there are not enough them so that everyone who wants one, and can afford one, can have one.
Which of course in real PvP is not acceptable, put in the make pretend 'market PvP' is an OK.
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