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Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.19 17:48:00 - [1] I've heard people refer to changes to AF's as of Dominion? What's on sisi? --
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.09.19 17:57:00 - [2] Overpowered Minmatar AFs and fast everything else (uh, and lots and lots of faction ships!). Most MWD cruisers are essentially dead ducks against them except for a select few, most disheartening. Massive fun going pre-QR MWD speeds without sig-bloom though.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:05:00 - [3] Not to mention making Light missiles useless, even with precisions + painter + rigor + flare + Crash booster. Goodbye Caracal, goodbye AML Cerb (if it goes through as is). Their argument for this will be: use drones then! Despite the fact that Af's can kill drones easily, and Cald get squat for drones. The fact that they even proposed this uber AB'ing AF change means they either didnt know anything about light missiles, didnt care the effect it had on them, or just want to ensure light missile platforms become useless for some reason. I can't see any other possible rationale.
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:45:00 - [4] Originally by: CCP Chronotis One of the upcoming changes we previously mentioned on the features & ideas forum and discussed with the CSM which we want to try out on singularity and gather public feedback on is a boost to assault frigates. We will add a 15% afterburner speed boost bonus per racial frigate level. This means each assault frigate will get a 75% bonus since racial frigate V is a pre-requisite to fly the ship. The intention is that the assault frigates will be able to close range on their targets to bring their damage to bear and increase their survivability on account of their increased speed and reduced signature radius factor whilst using afterburners. This is not a final solution and we are aware of related issues such as rocket performance but we have been impressed with the results so far internally that we want to move to the next phase and see what you all think. This change should hit singularity over the next few days and your constructive feedback is welcome! Source -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:16:00 - [5] Originally by: Soporo Not to mention making Light missiles useless, even with precisions + painter + rigor + flare + Crash booster. Goodbye Caracal, goodbye AML Cerb (if it goes through as is). Their argument for this will be: use drones then! Despite the fact that Af's can kill drones easily, and Cald get squat for drones. The fact that they even proposed this uber AB'ing AF change means they either didnt know anything about light missiles, didnt care the effect it had on them, or just want to ensure light missile platforms become useless for some reason. I can't see any other possible rationale. Or, you can actually throw a few webs on your target like blaster boats have to do :)
MadAtTheWorld	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:03:00 - [6] i'm happy about the changes as they actually relate to the game, just not thrilled about all the whining crybabies that have already started ****ing and moaning.
Cartheron Crust 14th Legion Equilibrium.	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:06:00 - [7] Should just give the AF's their frigate bonus which has gone walkabout.
Psiri	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:07:00 - [8] Seems to me like the the non-drone bonused cruisers and BC's will struggle against the new and improved AF's. Either way, AF's are still expensive and will probably be even more so now. The only thing that balances them currently is their pricetag.
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:28:00 - [9] Originally by: Kadoes Khan Originally by: CCP Chronotis One of the upcoming changes we previously mentioned on the features & ideas forum and discussed with the CSM which we want to try out on singularity and gather public feedback on is a boost to assault frigates. We will add a 15% afterburner speed boost bonus per racial frigate level. This means each assault frigate will get a 75% bonus since racial frigate V is a pre-requisite to fly the ship. The intention is that the assault frigates will be able to close range on their targets to bring their damage to bear and increase their survivability on account of their increased speed and reduced signature radius factor whilst using afterburners. This is not a final solution and we are aware of related issues such as rocket performance but we have been impressed with the results so far internally that we want to move to the next phase and see what you all think. This change should hit singularity over the next few days and your constructive feedback is welcome! Source Rockets and precision light missiles should get a boost. They need it nowadays too. And the new "uber" AB AFs have a counter. I like the idea of the proposed AFs as small tough ships. It's great for smaller player groups. But there must be a counter for them ofc. - Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:32:00 - [10] Originally by: chatgris Originally by: Soporo Not to mention making Light missiles useless, even with precisions + painter + rigor + flare + Crash booster. Goodbye Caracal, goodbye AML Cerb (if it goes through as is). Their argument for this will be: use drones then! Despite the fact that Af's can kill drones easily, and Cald get squat for drones. The fact that they even proposed this uber AB'ing AF change means they either didnt know anything about light missiles, didnt care the effect it had on them, or just want to ensure light missile platforms become useless for some reason. I can't see any other possible rationale. Or, you can actually throw a few webs on your target like blaster boats have to do :) Which some of us have been doing for ages, I am unconcerned since a dual webbed AF is quickly a dead AF, speed boost or no. It just gives them a sporting chance to run away before they die horribly (ha ha, not really, they're still screwed). I still think being able to fight from outside the ZONE OF DEATH (neut/scram/web range) is the best way to go with frigates. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Pan Dora Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:13:00 - [11] Originally by: chatgris Or, you can actually throw a few webs on your target like blaster boats have to do :) Maybe because his rant its base on the caracal you missed an important point. We are talking about ligth missile there. The small guided missile should be able to delivery some damage. _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.20 05:01:00 - [12] Quote: Which some of us have been doing for ages, I am unconcerned since a dual webbed AF is quickly a dead AF, speed boost or no. It just gives them a sporting chance to run away before they die horribly (ha ha, not really, they're still screwed). Yeah, how exactly is a caracal, cerb, or any other cruiser gonna manage to land one web much less two? Specially now as the AF will be able to AB faster than most mwd cruisers? Oh, that's right, it won't... unless the AF pilot will be idiotic enough to close to suicidal med neut and web range and orbit tight like Liang had someone do in his gamed test. Or do cruisers of all stripes now need dedicated tacklers like BS and BC do?
Mire Stoude The Undesirables	Posted - 2009.09.20 06:17:00 - [13] Rockets have needed a boost for a long time. I don't think light missiles and light precision missiles all of a sudden need boosting because they won't be as affective against 1 (ONE) ship class. Plus, I'm wondering if the turrets of an AF can track very well with AB running? Like the old Vaga's in the nano-age couldn't put a lot of DPS on a target unless it turned off the MWD. The Wolf and Jaguar probably has a bit of an advantage there. The Vengeance and Ishkur have an advantage there too, but can't do much DPS with just drones and lol-rockets.
Aerin Cloudfayr the evil ones G-R-I-E-V-A-N-C-E	Posted - 2009.09.20 08:01:00 - [14] AF vs AF it's still pretty good - just when the bigger ships rumble in, vanilla fittings wont compete anymore
Heccie Thump	Posted - 2009.09.20 08:39:00 - [15] Originally by: Soporo Yeah, how exactly is a caracal, cerb, or any other cruiser gonna manage to land one web much less two? Specially now as the AF will be able to AB faster than most mwd cruisers? Oh, that's right, it won't... unless the AF pilot will be idiotic enough to close to suicidal med neut and web range and orbit tight like Liang had someone do in his gamed test. Or do cruisers of all stripes now need dedicated tacklers like BS and BC do? So how is said AF going to kill your cruiser from beyond web range? If he is a tackler with a disruptor then he isn't going to lay damage down and you are going to die to a blob anyway. If he is using close range guns he can't hit you. If he is using long range turrets then he isn't going to have the tracking to hit you at the speeds he is doing. If he is using drones, web them and pop them with your drones. I suppose he might be using light missiles from range .. but wait ... aren't they useless?
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.09.20 09:08:00 - [16] The only thing this changes is ab af vs t1 cruiser. I find it amusing how few people realize that and think this is going to be some amazing buff to afs. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.20 09:24:00 - [17] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/09/2009 09:28:01 Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr AF vs AF it's still pretty good Not really, no. Consider that AFs which were lighter (and typically unplated, eg. Jaguar) got proportionally more speed then heavier and/or plated AFs (eg. Wolf), since they got a bonus to AB speed boost, and not a fixed velocity bonus. The differences between AF speeds are now much larger, in short, and large enough to insure that a two-midslot AF is gimped by default, because not only it's lacking a tackle mid, it is also now much slower. The increase in speed when tackled also makes things like small blasters and so on rather gimped; it is really trivial to get out of small blaster range. Additionally, rockets got the major shaft, and they were a sucky weapon system ever since they decided, in the overall missile boost, to give rockets only a bit more explosion velocity then torps have, which results now in serious damage reduction even fired on webbed frig hulls. Essentially, three AFs are non-worthless: the Jaguar, the Ishkur, and the Harpy. The remainder of them can only be used in a gang (eg. Wolf) or just suck (Enyo, lol Hawk, Vengeance, Retribution). Some AFs (Jaguar) got a incredible new role; being a de-facto unshakeable* ship with full tackle (web+scram) which can catch anything short of a Vagabond when afterburner fit. *No, dual med neuts do not work nearly as well as you think, it's called a small nos. Certain fits can just pretend light drones aren't there at all, other fits can kill them.
slightly sillydude	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:06:00 - [18] Well, its an indirect buff to the Rapier/Huginn. As those and maybe a curse are going to be the only things that can shake an AF.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Soporo Quote: Which some of us have been doing for ages, I am unconcerned since a dual webbed AF is quickly a dead AF, speed boost or no. It just gives them a sporting chance to run away before they die horribly (ha ha, not really, they're still screwed). Yeah, how exactly is a caracal, cerb, or any other cruiser gonna manage to land one web much less two? Specially now as the AF will be able to AB faster than most mwd cruisers? Oh, that's right, it won't... unless the AF pilot will be idiotic enough to close to suicidal med neut and web range and orbit tight like Liang had someone do in his gamed test. Or do cruisers of all stripes now need dedicated tacklers like BS and BC do? Dear God you're clueless, Soporo. Solo AML Caracal fits two webs right now, it will continue to do so and it will continue to easily slaughter these over-rated AFs.
Exitar Stormscion	Posted - 2009.09.20 12:16:00 - [20] Originally by: Soporo Not to mention making Light missiles useless, even with precisions + painter + rigor + flare + Crash booster. Goodbye Caracal, goodbye AML Cerb (if it goes through as is). Their argument for this will be: use drones then! Despite the fact that Af's can kill drones easily, and Cald get squat for drones. The fact that they even proposed this uber AB'ing AF change means they either didnt know anything about light missiles, didnt care the effect it had on them, or just want to ensure light missile platforms become useless for some reason. I can't see any other possible rationale. Caracal t1 cruiser should not be able to kill t2 frigate that costs between 20-30mil isk ( posibly more when dominion comes ). As for Cerebrus it is deferently focused ship that is NOT suposed to be anti frigate. There are few hacs that could kill asault frigates ... zealot doesnt have drones with heavy beams it would be imposible to win close battle vs asault frigate etc etc. There is ishtar ofcourse but that is his role with drones ... to be versatile. For ships that costs like tier1 bc they should be able to kill caracal ? NO ? OH yes caldari sux in pvp ... yeah right , get out of station and do some real pvp :) Mortal in body Eternal in will.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2009.09.20 12:22:00 - [21] Originally by: Exitar Stormscion Caracal t1 cruiser should not be able to kill t2 frigate that costs between 20-30mil isk... Ofc... and any bc /+tier 1,2 bs/ shouldnt be able to kill hac that costs 100m+ isk...
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.20 13:01:00 - [22] Mostly this looks like a good change. People saying there should be a counter - well there is, they are called webs. That said rockets greatly need some love and probably light missiles too. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Ghoest Mostly this looks like a good change. People saying there should be a counter - well there is, they are called webs... Problem is the plural nature of that statement, and even then 2 webs won't cut it. Dual webbed some of the AFs will be faster than a scrambled cruiser/hac. You will also need point, a neutralizer to shut down the AB (or 3rd web) .. that is a minimum of 4 slots, 3 of which are midslots. If your cruiser has medium guns you might even need more slots/rigs to be able to track if close in. Think a minute what ships are actually left once you take all those requirements into consideration .. not a lot. It is certainly doable, but the counter will be so specialised that it is of practically no use outside the AF/frigate bashing scenario .. this is bad. Lots more information in the official thread in test server part of forum, interested parties should stop by. Good read for the most part.
VanNostrum The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Ghoest Mostly this looks like a good change. People saying there should be a counter - well there is, they are called webs... Problem is the plural nature of that statement, and even then 2 webs won't cut it. Dual webbed some of the AFs will be faster than a scrambled cruiser/hac. You will also need point, a neutralizer to shut down the AB (or 3rd web) .. that is a minimum of 4 slots, 3 of which are midslots. If your cruiser has medium guns you might even need more slots/rigs to be able to track if close in. Think a minute what ships are actually left once you take all those requirements into consideration .. not a lot. It is certainly doable, but the counter will be so specialised that it is of practically no use outside the AF/frigate bashing scenario .. this is bad. Lots more information in the official thread in test server part of forum, interested parties should stop by. Good read for the most part. If you need 3 webs to slow an AB AF, then you'd need 4 webs to slow an AB inty. It is certainly doable, but the counter will be so specialised that it is of practically no use outside the inty bashing scenario. This arguement can go many ways. An AB AF will still be slower than some MWD ships which can easily be setup for long range and butcher AB AFs (thrashers, saders, crows to name a few)
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:27:00 - [25] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Ghoest Mostly this looks like a good change. People saying there should be a counter - well there is, they are called webs... Problem is the plural nature of that statement, and even then 2 webs won't cut it. Dual webbed some of the AFs will be faster than a scrambled cruiser/hac. You will also need point, a neutralizer to shut down the AB (or 3rd web) .. that is a minimum of 4 slots, 3 of which are midslots. If your cruiser has medium guns you might even need more slots/rigs to be able to track if close in. Think a minute what ships are actually left once you take all those requirements into consideration .. not a lot. It is certainly doable, but the counter will be so specialised that it is of practically no use outside the AF/frigate bashing scenario .. this is bad. Lots more information in the official thread in test server part of forum, interested parties should stop by. Good read for the most part. You are confused about EVE in general. You seem to think all cruiser size ships should be easily able to kill all frig sized ships. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:41:00 - [26] Originally by: Ghoest You are confused about EVE in general. You seem to think all cruiser size ships should be easily able to kill all frig sized ships. No, but they should be able to be counterfit without making it a lolfit, and while the change is fine for a large number of AFs (mostly because 5/8 of them suck and will suck even more), for a few of them it makes them imbalanced. It would be imbalanced if ships which are better at tackling, better at picking fights, better at catching people, better at gtfo capability and so on IF they also win a fight vs anything larger. What worries me more is the ridiculous ability to fully tackle at a very low price which will now be available to every, eg. FW gang - and there is no risk for the AF (Jaguar) involved given it does not need to blow up its sig with a MWD. At least now if you want to really make sure your prey is not burning off, you have to either risk a combat ceptor / MWD af or bring a Arazu/Lach (which are themselves rather fragile ships, cost a bit, and so on). On Dominion it can be done safer by a simple Jaguar - we're talking about basically zero risk here, given it can tackle any cruiser/BC/HAC (Vagabond might be dicey without a 10 mil complex mwd and LG snakeset, and rigged AML anti-frig ships are somewhat dangerous still) with impunity, and actually kill many of them solo. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Ghoest You are confused about EVE in general. You seem to think all cruiser size ships should be easily able to kill all frig sized ships. Not at all. But once you make a change that requires all other ships to sacrifice nearly all their slots to even stand a chance .... As I said there will be counters but forcing a fitting paradigm to combat a single ship type while gimping all other engagements is wrong. The speed-boost on the table makes AFs as fast or faster than a majority of MWD cruisers with zero downside. As it is now an AF that fits a MWD can catch and kill nearly all cruisers that are not prepared for it, but it does so with the usual drawbacks to cap/signature. The changes to frigates in Quantum Rise gave them a tremendous boost with higher speeds, lower mass and better agility while reducing web power .. they don't NEED any boost. AF's are already one of the most frequently used ships in low-sec. Making them god-mobiles will make that a 90% rate with remaining 10% being alts in recons/logistics (numbers exaggerated for effect)
Inquisitor Cononach	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:14:00 - [28] EVE is not a solo-PvP game. Balancing ship abillity/utillity around solo 1 vs. 1 is foolish and assinine. Solo 1 vs. 1 combat is such a tiny franctional minority in EVE activity, and yet the vast number of "bad change" arguments here are based exclusively around that limited aspect. This bonus (finally) makes AF a more viable Frigate-platform for roaming and small gang combat. It even may make it a useful addition as a tackler in larger gangs. It makes AF's worth their price in PvE uses, as "Ninja" Ratters and Mission Runners. It even may make the AF more viable for pirate groups. For the vast majority of EVE players, this is a great change.
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:27:00 - [29] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/09/2009 16:29:36 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/09/2009 16:29:16 Originally by: Inquisitor Cononach EVE is not a solo-PvP game. Balancing ship abillity/utillity around solo 1 vs. 1 is foolish and assinine. This change IS a change to boost AFs for solo combat AND make the Jaguar useful in gangs. Also, a fairly solid number of people in EVE do solo, and a preety damn large number of people do fly in what I'd classify as small/very small gangs (<5 people). Originally by: Inquisitor Cononach It even may make it a useful addition as a tackler in larger gangs. If by AF you mean "Jaguar" then yes. It's too good a small tackler for its price, compared to the other options out there and their weaknesses/strengths (Keres anyone? Combat ceptors?). Originally by: Inquisitor Cononach It makes AF's worth their price in PvE uses, as "Ninja" Ratters and Mission Runners. Not balance argument, combined with the fact that it doesn't, since DPS is all that matters for mission running bar L4s. Ninja ratting in AFs is fail due to lack of DPS. Activities meant to be grinded are supposed to be done as fast as possible, which is where the AF does not compute. Originally by: Inquisitor Cononach It even may make the AF more viable for pirate groups. No, it doesn't. You will also observe that most pirates do not really use AFs in groups, but rather as solo toys. If you're going to have a proper gang, with a scout, then you might as well fly a BC/HAC gang with something to tackle and preferably logistics; at least that way you can kill things on gates. It definitely doesn't do much for a AF gang which it couldn't do before, unless your people do not know how to warp to zero on the guy who has tackle. Furthermore, the AF is still incapable of properly flying with ceptor/AF gangs due to lower warp speed/agility which would've been a better boost all around if gangs are something you care about. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
M Blanc	Posted - 2009.09.20 17:14:00 - [30] Originally by: Cpt Branko No, but they should be able to be counterfit without making it a lolfit, and while the change is fine for a large number of AFs (mostly because 5/8 of them suck and will suck even more), for a few of them it makes them imbalanced. It would be imbalanced if ships which are better at tackling, better at picking fights, better at catching people, better at gtfo capability and so on IF they also win a fight vs anything larger. What worries me more is the ridiculous ability to fully tackle at a very low price which will now be available to every, eg. FW gang - and there is no risk for the AF (Jaguar) involved given it does not need to blow up its sig with a MWD. At least now if you want to really make sure your prey is not burning off, you have to either risk a combat ceptor / MWD af or bring a Arazu/Lach (which are themselves rather fragile ships, cost a bit, and so on). On Dominion it can be done safer by a simple Jaguar - we're talking about basically zero risk here, given it can tackle any cruiser/BC/HAC (Vagabond might be dicey without a 10 mil complex mwd and LG snakeset, and rigged AML anti-frig ships are somewhat dangerous still) with impunity, and actually kill many of them solo. Btw, for people who wanted to know. Counterfits which work (assuming you have MWD, you have drone interfacing V / drone spec IV / etc for your T2 lights): Neutralizer x 1 + 5x unbonused light drones: Jaguar no, cap boosted AFs no, others yes Neutralizer x 2 + 5x unbonused light drones: Jaguar maybe, you have to wait a minute or so for it and gtfo is better option if he's dual-MSE since he can re-establish scram in a moment, cap boosted AFs yes, others yes Web + 5x unbonused light drones: no, maybe vs junk ones web + ECM drones: probably cannot insure a kill vs faster ones, chance based but yes 2x web + 5x unbonused light drones: if they're at zero no, else probably yes 2x web + 5x ECM drones: chance-based but generally yes web + neutralizer + 5x unbonused light drones: Jaguar no, cap boosted AFs maybe, others yes 2x web + neutralizer+5x unbonused light drones: yes 1x web + 2x neutralizer + 5x unbonused light drones: yes Ignoring AML fits and small gun fits for purposes of this, of course. So... basically, the T1 cruisers that will do fine against the boosted AFs are, according to you: the Rupture (dual neuts + drones), Vexor and Arbitrator (neuts + bonused drones), assault Caracal, and Thorax (web + ECM drones). Of course, we can add to that list: no AB fit ship will ever catch a well-flown MWD Stabber, and a blackbird can keep any frigate permajammed indefinitely. So basically, your incessant doomsaying boils down to: boosted AFs will be p. good at killing Moas, Omens, and Mallers, plus the various racial mining and logistics cruisers. OH NOES, TEH SKY SI FALLING!!!111!
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.20 17:36:00 - [31] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/09/2009 17:44:24 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/09/2009 17:40:48 Originally by: M Blanc So... basically, the T1 cruisers that will do fine against the boosted AFs are, according to you: the Rupture (dual neuts + drones), Vexor and Arbitrator (neuts + bonused drones), assault Caracal, and Thorax (web + ECM drones). Of course, we can add to that list: no AB fit ship will ever catch a well-flown MWD Stabber, and a blackbird can keep any frigate permajammed indefinitely. Preety much. Do note that the MWD Stabber will generally never get that kill (unless the AF pilot is doing something horribly wrong), and the Thorax will have some issues scoring the actual kill if the AF is very fast, ditto Brutix (which will in fact do best to warpoff). Hopefully ECMs don't get nerfed (given they're looking into them), because having one gun based cruiser which works is meh. Rupture with dual neuts will do OK, as will the droneboats. Generally, multiple overlapping counters work - but it does make less and less fittings and ships viable. To sum it up: if you cannot dedicate 2 slots to deal with AFs and three slots to deal with a Jaguar plus lights, you're dead. ECM drones will continue working in combination with the web, although they are a chance-based mechanic. The change does nerf viability of many ships, in order to boost the Jaguar/Ishkur. Originally by: M Blanc So basically, your incessant doomsaying boils down to: boosted AFs will be p. good at killing Moas, Omens, and Mallers, plus the various racial mining and logistics cruisers. OH NOES, TEH SKY SI FALLING!!!111! The Jaguar will be straight out OP at tackling. The Ishkur will be awesome (genereally more awesome at actually killing other AFs/frig hulls though then going for bigger things). Everything else will be (even more then now) ****. MWD fits are not really attractive anymore, since they do not provide a serious enough speed advantage compared to the lack of sig bloom, the ease of fitting and running a AB. Oh, and it's not doomsaying. Read it. Somewhere along the way you missed the "while the change is fine for a large number of AFs". However, the change is stupid, it does further the imbalances within the class which are rather horrible to begin with, it does imbalance a few of them, it further reduces the amount of viable fittings for both AFs and larger ships, and it pushes some ships off the map as entirely useless. The class, as a whole, could do with some lowering of the mass across the board, which would do wonders for their agility (which currently means that if you're running a frig gang, AFs are lagging behind) + add a slight bit of speed when running both speed mods, and a rebalancing within the class (because, seriously, having a class where most ships are bad in comparison to their peers or simply worthless = fail) in addition to a 4th bonus depending on the needs of actual ships (eg. tracking for Wolf/Jag). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.20 17:52:00 - [32] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/09/2009 17:56:15 Originally by: Soporo Oh, that's right, it won't... unless the AF pilot will be idiotic enough to close to suicidal med neut and web range and orbit tight like Liang had someone do in his gamed test. What, you couldn't get flamed enough in the AF thread itself that you had to go spouting your utter nonsense here too? Pray tell me what is a valid Jag fitting if it's not using ACs? And furthermore, are you aware of just how amazing AC Jags are in the mean case? I assure you that every Jag you encounter will be AC fit. Every. Single. One. And know what that means? It'll be right where I was testing it. Originally by: Ghoest Mostly this looks like a good change. People saying there should be a counter - well there is, they are called webs. They don't work as well as you'd hope. Ion Brutix, TE, Scram, Web and you still can't hit AFs worth a damn. I think I got one down to half shields before I lost the Brutix. Same story with Electron/Web/Scram Deimos - except the results were even worse. Originally by: David Lulinvega The only thing this changes is ab af vs t1 cruiser. I find it amusing how few people realize that and think this is going to be some amazing buff to afs. Nope, if it were just cruisers vs AFs I'd probably be ok with the changes. But it's not. It's everything bigger than an AF is going to get screwed unless it devotes 2-3 slots specifically for the purpose of catching and/or driving away AFs. And yes, I've been spending time on the test server to see how they stack up. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.09.20 17:59:00 - [33] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/09/2009 17:44:24 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/09/2009 17:40:48 Originally by: M Blanc So... basically, the T1 cruisers that will do fine against the boosted AFs are, according to you: the Rupture (dual neuts + drones), Vexor and Arbitrator (neuts + bonused drones), assault Caracal, and Thorax (web + ECM drones). Of course, we can add to that list: no AB fit ship will ever catch a well-flown MWD Stabber, and a blackbird can keep any frigate permajammed indefinitely. Preety much. Do note that the MWD Stabber will generally never get that kill (unless the AF pilot is doing something horribly wrong), and the Thorax will have some issues scoring the actual kill if the AF is very fast, ditto Brutix (which will in fact do best to warpoff). Hopefully ECMs don't get nerfed (given they're looking into them), because having one gun based cruiser which works is meh. Rupture with dual neuts will do OK, as will the droneboats. Generally, multiple overlapping counters work - but it does make less and less fittings and ships viable. To sum it up: if you cannot dedicate 2 slots to deal with AFs and three slots to deal with a Jaguar plus lights, you're dead. ECM drones will continue working in combination with the web, although they are a chance-based mechanic. The change does nerf viability of many ships, in order to boost the Jaguar/Ishkur. Originally by: M Blanc So basically, your incessant doomsaying boils down to: boosted AFs will be p. good at killing Moas, Omens, and Mallers, plus the various racial mining and logistics cruisers. OH NOES, TEH SKY SI FALLING!!!111! The Jaguar will be straight out OP at tackling. The Ishkur will be awesome (genereally more awesome at actually killing other AFs/frig hulls though then going for bigger things). Everything else will be (even more then now) **. MWD fits are not really attractive anymore, since they do not provide a serious enough speed advantage compared to the lack of sig bloom, the ease of fitting and running a AB. Oh, and it's not doomsaying. Read it. Somewhere along the way you missed the "while the change is fine for a large number of AFs". However, the change is stupid, it does further the imbalances within the class which are rather horrible to begin with, it does imbalance a few of them, it further reduces the amount of viable fittings for both AFs and larger ships, and it pushes some ships off the map as entirely useless. The class, as a whole, could do with some lowering of the mass across the board, which would do wonders for their agility (which currently means that if you're running a frig gang, AFs are lagging behind) + add a slight bit of speed when running both speed mods, and a rebalancing within the class (because, seriously, having a class where most ships are bad in comparison to their peers or simply worthless = fail) in addition to a 4th bonus depending on the needs of actual ships (eg. tracking for Wolf/Jag). tbh I agree with branko. a simple straight bonus common to all AF's doesn't cover it. ships should be reviewed in a per-case basis, and not just giving them a blanket bonus --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.20 18:00:00 - [34] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Ghoest You are confused about EVE in general. You seem to think all cruiser size ships should be easily able to kill all frig sized ships. Not at all. But once you make a change that requires all other ships to sacrifice nearly all their slots to even stand a chance .... As I said there will be counters but forcing a fitting paradigm to combat a single ship type while gimping all other engagements is wrong. The speed-boost on the table makes AFs as fast or faster than a majority of MWD cruisers with zero downside. As it is now an AF that fits a MWD can catch and kill nearly all cruisers that are not prepared for it, but it does so with the usual drawbacks to cap/signature. The changes to frigates in Quantum Rise gave them a tremendous boost with higher speeds, lower mass and better agility while reducing web power .. they don't NEED any boost. AF's are already one of the most frequently used ships in low-sec. Making them god-mobiles will make that a 90% rate with remaining 10% being alts in recons/logistics (numbers exaggerated for effect) If a HAC actually fit a tank it would have no problem standing up to these Assult frig. Your entire argument is basically that a HAC should never be able fir for solo against any medium or bigger ship(or run away) ans still not be afraid of AFs. HACs are not supposed to be "I win" buttons. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.20 18:05:00 - [35] Originally by: Ghoest HACs are not supposed to be "I win" buttons. Neither are these AFs. And they definitely are against what I'd consider to be 80%+ of the fits (solo or not!) on TQ right now. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
jemos Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.20 18:12:00 - [36] Personally, I fell in love with the Wolf again. Even more after a tight tight battle against a caracal fitted with AML's. I did however go with the CQB wolf (I won btw). Next will be long range Wolf with ambit rigs ^^ Btw Wolf 1x nano and AB2 1400 1900 overheated Originally by: FireT If you have capitals..... well for the love of Raptor Pope, use them before they rust away.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.09.20 18:40:00 - [37] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 20/09/2009 18:41:52 Originally by: Ghoest If a HAC actually fit a tank it would have no problem standing up to these Assult frig. Your entire argument is basically that a HAC should never be able fir for solo against any medium or bigger ship(or run away) ans still not be afraid of AFs. HACs are not supposed to be "I win" buttons. I never even mentioned HAC's so I am curious where you get that from. But since you mentioned them; all HAC's except for the Sacrilege will need specific hardeners or use a dual-rep fit to be able to withstand the 150dps+ of an AF, and they cap out a lot faster than you'd think when repairing - injecting is just buying time. Regardless, why would one want to use the ability to tank a ship type as a sign of balance anyway? PS: I always use an active tank (minimum of MARII/DCUII/EANMII) on my HACs so am fully aware of just how vulnerable they are, especially cap-wise.
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.20 19:46:00 - [38] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/09/2009 19:47:40 Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, it's about the only marginally effective defense I've found. I have been thinking a med + small would probably work better though. And heavies are just not worth your time. :-/ I'm betting that the med+small would work better; the kicker with the dual meds is that they take a fairly long time to break the scram of a ship which only uses its cap to keep that (and possibly a web) going, and even then it's gone in just a second. Everything which uses cap on the other hand, or cannot passively tank drones is just dead. This is why I fit the thing (dual med neuts) even now on my ships - I can confirm however, that in practice it requires a good amount of time and capacitor to shake off a, for instance, Jaguar with that after it has latched onto you. Everything else, of course, dies in a fire. Dual neuts + web + T2 lights are infallible, though, but that really does force you in specific fittings. Did consider a arbitrator with lock time rigs to camp FW plexes and other places AFs congregate at ;) Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.20 23:53:00 - [39] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Ghoest HACs are not supposed to be "I win" buttons. Neither are these AFs. And they definitely are against what I'd consider to be 80%+ of the fits (solo or not!) on TQ right now. -Liang Ummm. Maybe the probl;em is "80%+ of the fits." You noobs thinks HACs are supposed to be a nuclear powered laser machine gun in a game of rock/paper/scissors. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.20 23:58:00 - [40] Originally by: Ghoest Ummm. Maybe the probl;em is "80%+ of the fits." You noobs thinks HACs are supposed to be a nuclear powered laser machine gun in a game of rock/paper/scissors. How would you fit a Brutix? How would you fit a Drake? How would you fit a Cerb? How would you fit a Deimos? How would you fit an Ishtar? -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida [. Regardless, why would one want to use the ability to tank a ship type as a sign of balance anyway? Uhhh. Maybe because defense was originally supposed to be an important part of the game and we have now gotten to the point where most people mostly ignore it in PVP. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:02:00 - [42] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/09/2009 00:05:23 If you think HACs are all that now, you're a noob who needs to try some PVP. I understand the AF fanboyism. It's OK. We all love the little things. However, significantly reducing the amount of "valid" ships to fly in order to boost two ships (or even one shipclass, but only two ships will have a point post-patch) is just stupid, nothing else. They need some fixes, but they don't need fixes which lead to most of them getting nothing and a few of them becoming OP. Also, cheering for a I-win ship class is stupid. Cheering for a I-win ship class which has all the intristic advantages of frigate hulls in regard to ease of roaming, tackling and so on is just Originally by: Ghoest Originally by: Hirana Yoshida [. Regardless, why would one want to use the ability to tank a ship type as a sign of balance anyway? Uhhh. Maybe because defense was originally supposed to be an important part of the game and we have now gotten to the point where most people mostly ignore it in PVP. They don't. It's called EHP on most ships. Running on cap boosters is the same thing as running on buffer if you cannot kill the agressor, and ships which can permarun even a single rep (which typically yields crap tank) take generally far too many slots to be viable, unless it's a Sac. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:16:00 - [43] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Ghoest Ummm. Maybe the probl;em is "80%+ of the fits." You noobs thinks HACs are supposed to be a nuclear powered laser machine gun in a game of rock/paper/scissors. How would you fit a Brutix? How would you fit a Drake? How would you fit a Cerb? How would you fit a Deimos? How would you fit an Ishtar? -Liang Well it would depend on what I wanted. I accept that their will be trade offs. Especially if I think I can solo. BCs should be one trick fit. They a disposable so fit for your intended target and suck it up if you meet the wrong guy. The Cerb is a broken ship by design(or built for an extremely narrow niche.) Id love to see a modest redesign, but dont holds its weirdness against other ships. The Deimios is already a glass canon - most people dont fly them. The Ishtar? Please. You can fit it for anything. Trally you should have mentioned the poor Eagle. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:21:00 - [44] Originally by: Cpt Branko stuff But its not an "I win" for everything. Its just a ship that treat some T2 Cruiser builds as T2 Cruisers treat T2 Battleships. You can fit many T2 cruisers to take out an AF if thats what you want anyway. It just wont be the same fit that owns other cruioser class and larger ships. And the AF wont be taking out big ships that the cruisers can kill. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:30:00 - [45] Originally by: Ghoest But its not an "I win" for everything. Its just a ship that treat some T2 Cruiser builds as T2 Cruisers treat T2 Battleships. You can fit many T2 cruisers to take out an AF if thats what you want anyway. It just wont be the same fit that owns other cruioser class and larger ships. And the AF wont be taking out big ships that the cruisers can kill. It's not treating "some" T2 cruisers. It's not treating everything in the entire game that doesn't have 2 medium neuts, light drones, and 1-2 webs that way. You don't fit for anti-AF work and you are AF-food. Period. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:37:00 - [46] Originally by: Liang Nuren [ It's not treating "some" T2 cruisers. It's not treating everything in the entire game that doesn't have 2 medium neuts, light drones, and 1-2 webs that way. You don't fit for anti-AF work and you are AF-food. Period. -Liang Any BS with a tank will be fine. Plenty of BCs with tanks will be fine. Some T2 cruisers will be fine. Its about time that T2 cruisers have a predator. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:55:00 - [47] Originally by: Ghoest Any BS with a tank will be fine. I'm not sure any BS can in fact tank a non-worthless AF on cap recharge alone, meaning it dies. Eventually. Originally by: Ghoest Plenty of BCs with tanks will be fine. PVE fits, sure. PVP fits? No. Remember, cap boosters do run out. Originally by: Ghoest Some T2 cruisers will be fine. Yeah, a Vagabond since it most likely will not get caught, and a Ishtar because it'll just neut the living crap out of you and mow you down with bonused T2 lights. Originally by: Ghoest Its about time that T2 cruisers have a predator. BS/BC/CS kill them just fine. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Will Strafe Caldari Overview Glitch	Posted - 2009.09.21 01:57:00 - [48] Originally by: Soporo Not to mention making Light missiles useless, even with precisions + painter + rigor + flare + Crash booster. Goodbye Caracal, goodbye AML Cerb (if it goes through as is). Their argument for this will be: use drones then! Despite the fact that Af's can kill drones easily, and Cald get squat for drones. The fact that they even proposed this uber AB'ing AF change means they either didnt know anything about light missiles, didnt care the effect it had on them, or just want to ensure light missile platforms become useless for some reason. I can't see any other possible rationale. Why shouldn't a 22 million combat boat be able to take out a 7 million combat boat. Or, if thats too much for the guy in the cheap ship, at least force him to fit for the situation, i.e. a web...?
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.21 02:11:00 - [49] Originally by: Will Strafe Why shouldn't a 22 million combat boat be able to take out a 7 million combat boat. Or, if thats too much for the guy in the cheap ship, at least force him to fit for the situation, i.e. a web...? his claim is that the caracal cant win even if it does everything rite rom -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.21 02:50:00 - [50] Your true colors are coming out. You want to be able to set up T2 cruisers to fight big ships and never have to worry about AFs. You guys totally ignore that some T2 cruisers could be set up to counter AFs - at the expense of other mission. And you ignore the fact that there are other ships vulnerable in HAC much the same way HACs are vulnerable to AFs. Also remember I said in the beginning that light missiles and rockets need to be adjusted if this change goes through. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.21 03:10:00 - [51] Originally by: Ghoest Your true colors are coming out. You want to be able to set up T2 cruisers to fight big ships and never have to worry about AFs. You guys totally ignore that some T2 cruisers could be set up to counter AFs - at the expense of other mission. And you ignore the fact that there are other ships vulnerable in HAC much the same way HACs are vulnerable to AFs. Also remember I said in the beginning that light missiles and rockets need to be adjusted if this change goes through. No n did e i want to b e abel t os et up fsdt2 fcursrs fabout liek to kill stufcv. ur like lolluooool uede y 2t cfrig is pwn ujrs asssss bnitshces! tehy are hroke ahvae ru yhou even logfed ein t ocheck? -0Liagfn -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.21 03:15:00 - [52] I have no idea what you just said. Are you making fun of me for a misspelling or something? Wherever you went - Here you are.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.21 03:31:00 - [53] Originally by: Ghoest I have no idea what you just said. Are you making fun of me for a misspelling or something? No. I am not making fun of you for being durnk i ja mttrying to tell uyou that he assault frigs are do very overpowerd its not taht i want the stupid t2 hac to be all uber its that therers no iofter optpion becasedi to flyh af and am l caracalt tyanfter this mnachange . you dont ot citt 23 meduh n mntues and ligths adn 2 bwes you jrs a dead af fodo becaus they arse that overpowered. its not like thtde hawk or teh su harpy rare thtaht overpowered its that th jag and simlar the turtet sheips have jno defenese without compelte ly geminping the fits. pradon pselingb ecuae i nam tdrunk 90Ligan -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.21 03:45:00 - [54] u r advocating a i win ship cals that is not hutning hcas and recnos and bcs and bcs and evryning else but teh al lof eve . n ochance of win unles fit 3-5 modules and lite drones . it is i win buton it is unpabalnced . i wil not flyh anything elcse until they get nerfed or a hug e set of balnce hacanges to give everythign else at tryance -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.09.21 03:53:00 - [55] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Ghoest I have no idea what you just said. Are you making fun of me for a misspelling or something? No. I am not making fun of you for being durnk i ja mttrying to tell uyou that he assault frigs are do very overpowerd its not taht i want the stupid t2 hac to be all uber its that therers no iofter optpion becasedi to flyh af and am l caracalt tyanfter this mnachange . you dont ot citt 23 meduh n mntues and ligths adn 2 bwes you jrs a dead af fodo becaus they arse that overpowered. its not like thtde hawk or teh su harpy rare thtaht overpowered its that th jag and simlar the turtet sheips have jno defenese without compelte ly geminping the fits. pradon pselingb ecuae i nam tdrunk 90Ligan DON'T WORRY I GOT THIS No. I am not making fun of you for being drunk, I jam trying to tell you that he assaults frigs. They are so overpowered it's not that I want the stupid t2 hac to be all uber it's that there's no other option because to fly afs and aml caracal after this man change. You don't ** out 23 murder minutes and lights and 2 boys you jars of dead af Frodo Baggins. Because my arse is that overpowered. It's not like tilde hawk or the slurpy are that overpowered it's that the jag and similar turret ships have no defense without completely gimping the fits. Prada celery back in 'nam I was drunk. Originally by:** CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
SuiJuris 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.21 04:13:00 - [56] And Pray tell me, what happens when 2 AF's meet 2 cruisers?, or 2+ AF's meet any equel number of a larger class of ship huh? so what if they can MURDER larger ships 1v1, IF i had to bet on 10 Harbingers vs 10 AF's guess where my money is? in group pvp you CANNOT maintain a orbit on 1 target while maintaining transversal on other targets. Great concept eh, and btw if they are effing scram fit they CANNOT CAMP A GATE SOLO. --- I am taking pre orders for Navy Armageddons
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.09.21 08:44:00 - [57] Ignore the Ghoest fellow. He is answering questions that were never asked, use arguments that were never made and avoids answering any challenges that does not fit his world view - all the characteristics of a troll. Originally by: SuiJuris <The Gang/Fleet Argument Unless the two larger ship have the prerequisite minimum of 2-3 webs, lots of light drones, points and neuts available they will die. It will require an unnaturally high level of cooperation between them (moving away from eachother for transversal negation etc.). If they are able to do this AND have the necessary modules then they win, but it is a longshot since unintuitive thinking/actions like moving away from buddies being attacked is a rare and hard learned skill. Why would 10 AFs engage 10 Harbingers unless they were TD wielding Ishkurs using rails? It is the same argument as saying that 10 BS would die attacking 10 Carriers, its a useless hypothetical scenario that will never happen. At any rate, scaling up gang/fleet sizes can ALWAYS be used to counter anything, it is the basis for the blob. One of the reasons the Titan changes are such a hot topic at the moment 1 is fine, 5 nearly OP Focusing a fleets heavy firepower on tackle is a sure fire way of losing a battle. By the time you down one half your ship are vaporized to the other sides dps .. Scrams with 1.5-2k/s are perfectly fine for normal gates, on AB burst is enough for overheated scram to land - your lock probably wont finish though, but that is unrelated to issue.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.21 09:10:00 - [58] Jag is going to be bleeding fantastic, as Liang stated fitted with AC's and either an EHP fit or a faction booster. Even when webbed it'll still be fast enough to orbit you to mess up your tracking and the naturally small sig radius helps here. Can fit full tackle, can choose damage types, has good resists to the obvious Hammerheads and warriors, doesn't need cap to fire so neuting doesn't help much (can fit nos). All it needs is some tracking and it's a bit low on dps but once a Jag catches you, unless you have some REAL good answer it doesn't matter if it takes a bit longer or not; you gonna die.
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.09.21 11:23:00 - [59] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 21/09/2009 11:26:11 Originally by: Will Strafe Originally by: Soporo Not to mention making Light missiles useless, even with precisions + painter + rigor + flare + Crash booster. Goodbye Caracal, goodbye AML Cerb (if it goes through as is). Their argument for this will be: use drones then! Despite the fact that Af's can kill drones easily, and Cald get squat for drones. The fact that they even proposed this uber AB'ing AF change means they either didnt know anything about light missiles, didnt care the effect it had on them, or just want to ensure light missile platforms become useless for some reason. I can't see any other possible rationale. Why shouldn't a 22 million combat boat be able to take out a 7 million combat boat. Or, if thats too much for the guy in the cheap ship, at least force him to fit for the situation, i.e. a web...? Maybe because nothing should be pure rock/paper/scissor and maybe because the 7m isk combat boat that you think off asks for more SP. Also, considering that Branko has been flying Cruisers for years now and medium class ships, i'd value his opinion far above any Dev ... especially since the Dev will be biased towards changes that bring more ppl in the game but do unballance the game overall. --- I smack just for myself. * Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.21 11:42:00 - [60] Yes ignore the guy looking at the big picture who doesnt mind a shift from the current disturbed paradigm. Pnly pay attention to petty noobs trying to protect their T2 cruiser glory. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.09.21 11:54:00 - [61] Originally by: Will Strafe Why shouldn't a 22 million combat boat be able to take out a 7 million combat boat. Or, if thats too much for the guy in the cheap ship, at least force him to fit for the situation, i.e. a web...? I can think of a situation where a mult-billion ship can die to a 10mil ship. see, I can make stupid comparisons aswell. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:04:00 - [62] Originally by: Muad' Dib Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 21/09/2009 11:26:11 Originally by: Will Strafe Originally by: Soporo Not to mention making Light missiles useless, even with precisions + painter + rigor + flare + Crash booster. Goodbye Caracal, goodbye AML Cerb (if it goes through as is). Their argument for this will be: use drones then! Despite the fact that Af's can kill drones easily, and Cald get squat for drones. The fact that they even proposed this uber AB'ing AF change means they either didnt know anything about light missiles, didnt care the effect it had on them, or just want to ensure light missile platforms become useless for some reason. I can't see any other possible rationale. Why shouldn't a 22 million combat boat be able to take out a 7 million combat boat. Or, if thats too much for the guy in the cheap ship, at least force him to fit for the situation, i.e. a web...? Maybe because nothing should be pure rock/paper/scissor and maybe because the 7m isk combat boat that you think off asks for more SP. Also, considering that Branko has been flying Cruisers for years now and medium class ships, i'd value his opinion far above any Dev ... especially since the Dev will be biased towards changes that bring more ppl in the game but do unballance the game overall. I've also scored some ~400 kills in frigate hulls, mostly solo and pre-QR when webs were really, really nasty things. The only reason why I don't fly one now, despite having nearly perfect skills for one (bar small ac/arty spec V) are the silly post-moongate prices, and lack of 4th bonus (eg. tracking) to make, eg. arty fits more viable. QR was a massive boost to small ships. Interceptors no longer needed to pimp up to survive a medium turret ship - any T2 fit with good skills > any old fit with going <10km/s as far as turret survival goes. Warrior IIs or being very fast became requirements do deal with interceptors tackling you, and even then not a sure-fire thing. Deficient webs + introduction of scramblers made it both hard to tackle properly (24km disruptor) and efficiently control range in <10km (all medium gun optimals bar lasers using LR ammo) in larger ships - plus it made counterfitting vs smaller ships a necessity; else you end up as a comedy killmail. Overall it made medium-sized ships with range-dependent DPS more of a annoyance to fly, the primary reason why I decided to leave my slaves alone for a while, buy a snakeset, and jump in a nano-fit Hurricane (which is rather solid, despite not being able to solo some things anymore; valid set of trade-offs between mobility and sheer power/etc). As things are, a ship with two slots dedicated to anti-frigate work + T2 lights is a requirement not to fail vs AFs; the other (riskier!) option is relying on range control, since AB AFs are deficient at closing range (on the other hand, MWD AFs only need a web to counter them provided they do not have a web themselves and therefore stand a chance - but a MWD AF puts itself at risk of death on the approach). This increases the amount of required slots by +1, which pushes so many ships & fits from being viable anymore. On the other hand, it furthers the imbalances present within the class itself (eg, the fact that most AFs suck) and makes only one of them have actual gang utility (Jaguar which is too good of a tackler now). As for HACs being OP, I would like to kindly point out that I have never, ever lost a BC to a HAC out of maybe 20 solo HACs I killed. Sure, lots of them got away (particularly pre-QR) and the decision whether to engage or not is generally in their hands (without a covops alt which I don't have), they're better at evading unfavourable fights then BCs are, and they bring to gangs things BC's can't (and vice versa) but they're far from 'solo pwn' machines. AFs being a deadly hunter of cruisers/BCs/HACs/BS with all the advantages would be broken. ... (to be continued)... Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:19:00 - [63] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/09/2009 12:20:20 ... The price argument does not hold water anyway; the CS, for instance, will in most cases fail to solo the much cheaper BS. The HAC will often fail to solo a BC, nevermind a BS. The Marauder is not a capital solo killer... etcetera. In fact, no T2 ship class balances solo performance with price, and even if it did, HACs/BCs dying to a AF would break it then. That said, AFs are too expensive to be considered cost-efficient. Cutting their build requirements by 1/3rd would go a long way towards making the ships reasonably priced. AFs do need a overall rebalance within the class, including a rocket fix, and they do need a 4th bonus. Many times I've contemplated fitting a, eg. arty Jaguar - only to give up in disgust at the pricetag and lack of tracking bonus and just take a Thrasher instead. Ditto Wolf. I hate the non-friglike agility of most of AFs. A AF audit resulting in a whole class of effective but not OP ships would be beautiful. However, a fix of AFs should NOT obsolete soloing/very small gangs in larger ships, because that is not only overpowered and imbalanced compared to larger ship classes which have disadvantages tied to being large, worse at tackle, and generally (bar T1 cruisers) more expensive, but it also reduces diversity. I may be biased as a reasonably high-SP player, but I like the fact that I can hop into anything from a frigate to a BC (HACs excepted even though I can fly them now; I detest the looks of the Vagabond and the Munnin is only somewhat useful for sniper HAC gangs) and have a non-lol ship to use. Furthermore, laying that scrambler safely should not be the domain of the AF (read: Jaguar), because it IS a extremely powerful effect (stronger then webs and in many many cases actually more powerful then the old 90% web) and only the Keres (which is weak to drones and crap solo) and gallente recons (which are more expensive cruiser hulls and tend to pop when looked at in a ugly way) being able to do this is balanced. If you want me to suggest a AF fix which is not imbalanced, feel free to ask. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:49:00 - [64] Originally by: Ghoest Yes ignore the guy looking at the big picture who doesnt mind a shift from the current disturbed paradigm. Pnly pay attention to petty noobs trying to protect their T2 cruiser glory. Afaik Branko can't afford t2 cruisers. --- I smack just for myself. * Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout
SuiJuris 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.21 13:17:00 - [65] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Ignore the Ghoest fellow. He is answering questions that were never asked, use arguments that were never made and avoids answering any challenges that does not fit his world view - all the characteristics of a troll. Originally by: SuiJuris <The Gang/Fleet Argument Unless the two larger ship have the prerequisite minimum of 2-3 webs, lots of light drones, points and neuts available they will die. It will require an unnaturally high level of cooperation between them (moving away from eachother for transversal negation etc.). If they are able to do this AND have the necessary modules then they win, but it is a longshot since unintuitive thinking/actions like moving away from buddies being attacked is a rare and hard learned skill. Why would 10 AFs engage 10 Harbingers unless they were TD wielding Ishkurs using rails? It is the same argument as saying that 10 BS would die attacking 10 Carriers, its a useless hypothetical scenario that will never happen. At any rate, scaling up gang/fleet sizes can ALWAYS be used to counter anything, it is the basis for the blob. One of the reasons the Titan changes are such a hot topic at the moment 1 is fine, 5 nearly OP Focusing a fleets heavy firepower on tackle is a sure fire way of losing a battle. By the time you down one half your ship are vaporized to the other sides dps .. Scrams with 1.5-2k/s are perfectly fine for normal gates, on AB burst is enough for overheated scram to land - your lock probably wont finish though, but that is unrelated to issue. Unusual amount of cooperation? You mean looking to see which one he is orbiting and having the second cruiser burn away to decrease transversal and increase range further decreasing the .... oh yea thats too complicated for most wow players to figure out... This is eve. THAT can be done even if neither of them have a web and if both of them have 1 web chance are 1 af is dead and the second is going to run away. Seriously it is impossible to orbit 1 target and do ANYTHING to it, especially orbit at Autocannon range and keep transversal up on a second target. --- I am taking pre orders for Navy Armageddons
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.21 13:56:00 - [66] Originally by: Muad' Dib Originally by: Ghoest Yes ignore the guy looking at the big picture who doesnt mind a shift from the current disturbed paradigm. Pnly pay attention to petty noobs trying to protect their T2 cruiser glory. Afaik Branko can't afford t2 cruisers. Burn
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.09.21 14:27:00 - [67] Originally by: Marko Riva Burn Aaaah, that special love that low-sec dwellers have towards one another .. accept no substitute Originally by: SuiJuris Unusual amount of cooperation? .. WoW does not, as far as I know, have anything resembling tracking so pretty pointless smack on your part. Pulling AWAY from a buddy being attacked is counter-intuitive and thus a rare thing, human brain requires training to do it (ie. unnatural/unusual). With AF's going roughly 1k/s when webbed you would still need some pretty fancy manoeuvring even if you have the tactical sense to pull range, and this isn't even accounting for the actual tank on the AF. A single neut can maybe force a point off, but the natural recharge alone gives you at most 1-2s before its back on .. hope you weren't wiggling around trying to reduce that transversal and getting out of alignment. You need two staggered neuts to ensure that the point and ab are killed, especially facing capless weapons or the monster capacitor of the vengeance. High speed, T2 tank, 1/2-2/3rds cruiser dps, low signature .. its a recipe for disaster.
SuiJuris 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.21 14:56:00 - [68] Wow maybe you fly with some terrible pilots but its pretty straight forward to burn away from someone to decrease transversal. And thats if both the cruisers didn't have a web and chances are PvP Fit cruisers will have 1 web each. 9 out of 10 times 2 cruiser sized ships murder 2 af's so what if there amazing solo provided your target doesn't have 1 friend for backup. and in a fleet you simply would IGNORE the AF's until you murdered all the big damage dealers they have then murder the AF's last. Tanking is not a roll and there DPS isn't too frightening. You guys cry end of the world because the AF is going to be a great solo boat, bar it doesn't run into more then 1 target, or any gang with a Sentinel, or a Curse, or a Assault Missile launcher ship. also HAVE YOU Tried tackling on gate with a scrambler? I have in a Scram fit inty, catching a battlecruiser isn't a sure thing and catching a Cruiser is Iffy at best. --- I am taking pre orders for Navy Armageddons
Vidi Angelus Caldari Crystal Dynamics Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.09.21 15:06:00 - [69] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: SuiJuris <The Gang/Fleet Argument Unless the two larger ship have the prerequisite minimum of 2-3 webs, lots of light drones, points and neuts available they will die. It will require an unnaturally high level of cooperation between them (moving away from eachother for transversal negation etc.). If they are able to do this AND have the necessary modules then they win, but it is a longshot since unintuitive thinking/actions like moving away from buddies being attacked is a rare and hard learned skill. Set a suitable keep at range distance, keep buddy at range, shoot at AF which has lower transversal. If a player can't figure this out, they deserve to get slaughtered. On a seperate note, How do tracking disruptor's fare vs AF (Optimal for disruptor fit AF, Tracking for Scram fit) I would guess a TD would seriously hamper tracking, especially on ships like the jag. If they have to slow down to hit you, it'll help you hit them. C/D?
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.21 15:18:00 - [70] Originally by: Vidi Angelus Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: SuiJuris <The Gang/Fleet Argument Unless the two larger ship have the prerequisite minimum of 2-3 webs, lots of light drones, points and neuts available they will die. It will require an unnaturally high level of cooperation between them (moving away from eachother for transversal negation etc.). If they are able to do this AND have the necessary modules then they win, but it is a longshot since unintuitive thinking/actions like moving away from buddies being attacked is a rare and hard learned skill. Set a suitable keep at range distance, keep buddy at range, shoot at AF which has lower transversal. If a player can't figure this out, they deserve to get slaughtered. On a seperate note, How do tracking disruptor's fare vs AF (Optimal for disruptor fit AF, Tracking for Scram fit) I would guess a TD would seriously hamper tracking, especially on ships like the jag. If they have to slow down to hit you, it'll help you hit them. C/D? Yes the Sentinel does **** the jag if flown correctly.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.21 15:25:00 - [71] Originally by: Will Strafe Why shouldn't a 22 million combat boat be able to take out a 7 million combat boat. Or, if thats too much for the guy in the cheap ship, at least force him to fit for the situation, i.e. a web...? Same argument I tried to use for nano defense. Obviously CCP doesn't like that one so you're wrong. see, I can make stupid comparisons aswell. --
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.09.21 15:41:00 - [72] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Same argument I tried to use for nano defense. Obviously CCP doesn't like that one so you're wrong. trite but true. still I find it kinda funny. year and half ago, people where whining about nanos like there was no tomorrow, and now I see it appearing yet again, mainly BECAUSE of the way how CCP dealt with it (namely, stupidly weak webs). so CCP, are you really sure you want to throw away those development hours you spent on nerfing nanos by bringing it back again? --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
M Blanc	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:21:00 - [73] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/09/2009 17:44:24 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/09/2009 17:40:48 Originally by: M Blanc So... basically, the T1 cruisers that will do fine against the boosted AFs are, according to you: the Rupture (dual neuts + drones), Vexor and Arbitrator (neuts + bonused drones), assault Caracal, and Thorax (web + ECM drones). Of course, we can add to that list: no AB fit ship will ever catch a well-flown MWD Stabber, and a blackbird can keep any frigate permajammed indefinitely. Preety much. Do note that the MWD Stabber will generally never get that kill (unless the AF pilot is doing something horribly wrong), and the Thorax will have some issues scoring the actual kill if the AF is very fast, ditto Brutix (which will in fact do best to warpoff). Hopefully ECMs don't get nerfed (given they're looking into them), because having one gun based cruiser which works is meh. Rupture with dual neuts will do OK, as will the droneboats. Generally, multiple overlapping counters work - but it does make less and less fittings and ships viable. To sum it up: if you cannot dedicate 2 slots to deal with AFs and three slots to deal with a Jaguar plus lights, you're dead. ECM drones will continue working in combination with the web, although they are a chance-based mechanic. The change does nerf viability of many ships, in order to boost the Jaguar/Ishkur. You talk about 'dedicating' slots to anti-AF work as though these ships don't already fit those modules for general combat purposes. Dual neuts on a Rupture have been part of the cookie cutter armor buffer fitting for some time; same goes for the neuty vexor and arby, and it's generally accepted that the only way to fit any kind of tank on a Caracal is to go with AMLs. What you're really saying is that of the T1 cruisers that are worth flying to begin with, all will cope just fine using fits that are currently ubiquitous. I really don't see the problem here - do you have some specific unorthodox fit in mind that would be invalidated by an AB ishkur burning towards it at 1500 m/s? As it stands, a cruiser with an MWD can effortlessly kite an AB frigate; the proposed changes let the AB AF get into scram range, but do not by any means guarantee a win, which seems a lot closer to being balanced than the current scenario of 'fit AB -> die'. I agree very strongly about the imbalances between the different AFs (although the devs have said they're aware of the problems with rockets, which may mean the Vengeance will become good and the Hawk... will suck a bit less than it currently does), but I don't see that making afterburners viable for catching cruisers and MWDing battleships is somehow game-breaking.
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:47:00 - [74] Originally by: Marko Riva Originally by: Muad' Dib Originally by: Ghoest Yes ignore the guy looking at the big picture who doesnt mind a shift from the current disturbed paradigm. Pnly pay attention to petty noobs trying to protect their T2 cruiser glory. Afaik Branko can't afford t2 cruisers. Burn I meant, he makes all of his isk from PVP, which is something very very very very very few ppl in EVE can do - yes ... 5 very's. --- I smack just for myself. * Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout
Khandahar Bob	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:41:00 - [75] Reality called. He wants you to know that a 25% speed increase (yes, that is what this is -- the bonus is not to speed, it's to the afterburner speed modifier) to an assault frigate is not game breaking. He also wanted to let you know that it's not an agility increase and so any assault ship in a tight orbit will still be going exactly the same speed as before the new bonus. He'd also like to high-five the guy who said that really the only difference now is that assault ship will be able to catch/escape MWD cruisers with a little more ease.
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:44:00 - [76] Originally by: Khandahar Bob Reality called. He wants you to know that a 25% speed increase (yes, that is what this is -- the bonus is not to speed, it's to the afterburner speed modifier) to an assault frigate is not game breaking. He also wanted to let you know that it's not an agility increase and so any assault ship in a tight orbit will still be going exactly the same speed as before the new bonus. He'd also like to high-five the guy who said that really the only difference now is that assault ship will be able to catch/escape MWD cruisers with a little more ease. Reality called - you can fit istabs or nanos and get more agility at higher speeds. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
SuiJuris 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:00:00 - [77] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Khandahar Bob Reality called. He wants you to know that a 25% speed increase (yes, that is what this is -- the bonus is not to speed, it's to the afterburner speed modifier) to an assault frigate is not game breaking. He also wanted to let you know that it's not an agility increase and so any assault ship in a tight orbit will still be going exactly the same speed as before the new bonus. He'd also like to high-five the guy who said that really the only difference now is that assault ship will be able to catch/escape MWD cruisers with a little more ease. Reality called - you can fit istabs or nanos and get more agility at higher speeds. -Liang Reality called again, once more then 2 ships are involved the AF's arn't all that stunning. OMG I CAN solo a battleship in HAC, but 2 hac's can't solo 2 battleships. --- I am taking pre orders for Navy Armageddons
Khandahar Bob	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:09:00 - [78] Originally by: Liang Nuren Reality called - you can fit istabs or nanos and get more agility at higher speeds. -Liang You were speaking to Hysteria, not Reality. You can ALREADY fit inertial stabalizers or nanofiber internal structure modules to get more agility at higher speeds, and when you do you still won't be going your top speed -- and this is before the new bonus.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:23:00 - [79] Originally by: SuiJuris Reality called again, once more then 2 ships are involved the AF's arn't all that stunning. OMG I CAN solo a battleship in HAC, but 2 hac's can't solo 2 battleships. Winner. Wherever you went - Here you are.
goazer Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:44:00 - [80] Shocking... Think about interceptors. Strap a faction scrambler into Jaguar... That goes like...eleventybillion ms after that change?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:46:00 - [81] I just got a semaphore message telling me that these AFs will still be dead meat to AML Caracals.
SuiJuris 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:54:00 - [82] Edited by: SuiJuris on 21/09/2009 21:54:13 Originally by: goazer Edited by: goazer on 21/09/2009 21:52:55 Edited by: goazer on 21/09/2009 21:51:07 Shocking... Think about interceptors. Strap a faction scrambler into Jaguar... That goes like...eleventybillion ms after that change? EDIT: [Jaguar, Jaguar ] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Power Diagnostic System II 1MN Afterburner II Medium Shield Extender II Small Shield Extender II Warp Scrambler II 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S [empty high slot] Small Core Defence Field Extender II Small Core Defence Field Extender II With that 75% total bonus this thing could do with HG snake set over 2700 ms...with nearly 10k EHP tank... EDIT2: With two 60% webs hitting that thing, it would still go faster than most interceptors without their MWD on And Vega's still go faster, have more slots, do more damage... oh and have WAY more hitpoints. --- I am taking pre orders for Navy Armageddons
goazer Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:56:00 - [83] Originally by: SuiJuris And Vega's still go faster, have more slots, do more damage... oh and have WAY more hitpoints. Does your vaga have 47.1 m^2 signal radius too?
SuiJuris 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:00:00 - [84] Originally by: goazer Originally by: SuiJuris And Vega's still go faster, have more slots, do more damage... oh and have WAY more hitpoints. Does your vaga have 47.1 m^2 signal radius too? Nope, but it can still engage and kill a wider variety of targets then your Jag can, and it won't be sub par to a t1 cruiser once more then 2 ships are involved, unlike your jag. --- I am taking pre orders for Navy Armageddons
Mystical Dawn Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:12:00 - [85] Originally by: SuiJuris Originally by: goazer Originally by: SuiJuris And Vega's still go faster, have more slots, do more damage... oh and have WAY more hitpoints. Does your vaga have 47.1 m^2 signal radius too? Nope, but it can still engage and kill a wider variety of targets then your Jag can, and it won't be sub par to a t1 cruiser once more then 2 ships are involved, unlike your jag. Still waiting to figure out your point of this yabbering about more than two ships and HACs in AF thread. Does not compute. I mean that.... NO **** SHERLOCK?!
goazer Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:18:00 - [86] Originally by: SuiJuris Nope, but it can still engage and kill a wider variety of targets then your Jag can, and it won't be sub par to a t1 cruiser once more then 2 ships are involved, unlike your jag. I was talking about how the new AF's with that bonus will totally dominate interceptors. And you bring in HACs, and blobs and god knows what other bs...
SuiJuris 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:22:00 - [87] Originally by: Mystical Dawn Originally by: SuiJuris Originally by: goazer Originally by: SuiJuris And Vega's still go faster, have more slots, do more damage... oh and have WAY more hitpoints. Does your vaga have 47.1 m^2 signal radius too? Nope, but it can still engage and kill a wider variety of targets then your Jag can, and it won't be sub par to a t1 cruiser once more then 2 ships are involved, unlike your jag. Still waiting to figure out your point of this yabbering about more than two ships and HACs in AF thread. Does not compute. I mean that.... NO ** SHERLOCK?! Everyone is **ing and moaning about these new AF's being the end of the world of EVE as we know it. I'm trying to bring some sense to these threads telling people that once its not a 1v1 there not impressive. So what if there great solo boats that are hard to catch in a gatecamp and can engage and slowly kill a wide variety of targets provided the engagement remains a 1v1. Haven't we been asking for a boost to solo pvp for a while now? Quit all your whineing and theorycrafting in a gang your AF, brings something that will quickly slow things down and keep them from re approaching the gate AFTER the inty gets the initial tackle, it will also bring between 100-300 DPS max, which is less then a T1 cruiser significantly less. --- I am taking pre orders for Navy Armageddons
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:14:00 - [88] Originally by: SuiJuris As gang size goes up, AF utility goes down I can tell you're in FW. First off, the proposed boost makes 1 (one) AF have actual gang utility; the Jaguar. Everything else is too slow / too fragile (the Jaguar does have some NICE buffer if fit in a non-fail way, which makes it very difficult to shake off even now) to be worth anything. Secondly, in a gang you already have ships which can stop MWDs efficiently with good lock time. Unfortunately, they either tend to be rather weak/fragile and therefore vulnerable (Keres), or fairly expensive, SP intensive, and still vulnerable up if they mess up and get close (Arazu/Lach). Which is a fair and reasonable set of downsides. Most people who are rooting for this particular change are asking for something which is a I-win button vs most ships in EVE solo / in small gangs and forces anything to spend a frivolous amount of slots to counterfit. Or they want a efficient ship to lay full tackle without the downsides or the pricetag which the ships which do it now already have. If you think about gang utility; doesn't it reek of fail when a good part of T2 frigates barely bring more damage (which IS sort of relevant) then T1 hulls, or less in case of the lolHawk/Vengeance? Doesn't it reek of fail that most AFs are too bulky to keep up with a ceptor/frig gang without lagging behind? Doesn't it reek of fail that most AFs as it is are lolmails, with just a few decent ones? Isn't it a bit silly their build requirements are so much larger then interceptors? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
SuiJuris 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:01:00 - [89] Branko, I can aggree whole heartedly that looking at them each individually would be better then this blanket boost. Enyo will still be good but completely outshined by a Ishkur. Hawk just doesn't have the fitting to compete, also a resistance bonus to shields would be much better then a active tanking bonus as you could then active tank or passive tank it. Harpy seems fine to me right now. Retribution, unless it gets a tracking bonus or a second midslot, will have trouble not getting owned by anything that can web and orbit it. (right now you don't even need to web it in a inty most times, after the ab nerf you probably will.) Vengeance uses lol rockets and BOTH amarr AF's are too fat. Jag, is Amazing as is right now, I like MWD's on the damn things because you can overheat and catch a ceptor , Wolf I'm less inclined to liking but its just because I started life as a Amarr spec'd player and crave midslots. ALL that being said, I don't think the Jag will be Overpowered after these changes. --- I am taking pre orders for Navy Armageddons
Liang Nuren The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:36:00 - [90] Originally by: SuiJuris ALL that being said, I don't think the Jag will be Overpowered after these changes. You're 100% wrong on this. If these changes go through, I probably won't leave a Jag until they get nerfed to hell. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Grut Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:19:00 - [91] Someone posted a good idea on the test server thread. The wolf, enyo, hawk and vengance get the ab bonus The others get a 4th bonus Ishkur - +5% drone speed Jag + Harpy - Tracking Retribution - Cap recharge Rockets get fixed, the hawk gets resists instead of boost & the retribution gets a 2nd mid. Sorted. Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know... Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:45:00 - [92] Originally by: Grut Someone posted a good idea on the test server thread. The wolf, enyo, hawk and vengance get the ab bonus The others get a 4th bonus Ishkur - +5% drone speed Jag + Harpy - Tracking Retribution - Cap recharge Rockets get fixed, the hawk gets resists instead of boost & the retribution gets a 2nd mid. Sorted. That would work. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:55:00 - [93] Originally by: Grut Someone posted a good idea on the test server thread. The wolf, enyo, hawk and vengance get the ab bonus The others get a 4th bonus Ishkur - +5% drone speed Jag + Harpy - Tracking Retribution - Cap recharge Rockets get fixed, the hawk gets resists instead of boost & the retribution gets a 2nd mid. Sorted. I started out thinking of splitting them up in utility/combat brackets as well, but figured CCP are unlikely to put any more work into than absolutely necessary. I suspect they are looking for a quick fix to make it "go away" as it were. Those bonuses look solid except for Enyo which would still need mwd for blasters and doesn't have web so sub-par tackle. Retribution can already run guns+mwd with no cap modss so recharge is not needed, tracking on the other hand .. . About the 2nd mid .. as much as I would love it, I fear the ship would become overpowered. Can field an impressive tank and has tons of damage+range, only thing keeping it from taking over the world is lack of tackle
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:59:00 - [94] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 22/09/2009 18:59:54 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida About the 2nd mid .. as much as I would love it, I fear the ship would become overpowered. Can field an impressive tank and has tons of damage+range, only thing keeping it from taking over the world is lack of tackle Nothing wrong with a AF which can field a impressive tank and have tons of damage+range while being able to tackle. ~~More~~ All AFs should be like that. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
SuiJuris 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:23:00 - [95] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: SuiJuris ALL that being said, I don't think the Jag will be Overpowered after these changes. You're 100% wrong on this. If these changes go through, I probably won't leave a Jag until they get nerfed to hell. -Liang Liang, yes it will be a amazing 1v1 boat. Once your fighting more then 1 person a bigger ship would almost always be more useful, and you will be relagated to glorified secondary tackler. Yes you will be useful in larger gangs but your not going to turn the fight around where another Battlecruiser can. --- I am taking pre orders for Navy Armageddons

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