Originally by: TZeer

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Like the new changes, just hope CCP doesn`t backs out and give in to the cry babies

Anyway:

- Alliances are not supposed to have every single system withing 10 jumps of their outpost cynojammed. Without having to pay for it.

- Jump bridges, also a huge tactical tool. And all of you are whining and moaning about you need it for logistics. Well after this you dont need to keep 150 systems with POS fuel and what not.

Today I did a 70 jump trip from empire and into 0.0... What did I see? Alot of empty space with no people in, but sov was up. Why?

Example: Open up map and have a look at Impass. How many people in thoose systems? How many systems are not in use? Also, Feythabolis, Paragon Soul, Tenerifis it`s all wasteland. Most of the systems are only in use by 1 person. And quite a few of the systems are not even used.

Example: Feythabolis consists of 89 systems, when I did a count now I found 92 people in thoose systems. Thats 1,03 people per system.
After patch:
So the systems are upgraded to some extent, and can support 10 people in each system, You wont suddenly need 89 systems, you could reduce it to 9!!!. And suddenly there would be no need for jumpbridge networks in the scale that you have now.

With the first prices CCP came with it would cost 20 mil per day per system, so you are looking at 20*9=180 mil per day. 30 days= 5,4 Bil

Divide that on 92 people= 58,6 Mil per person. Then divide it with number of days, 30= 1,96 mil per day per person. In average thats the taxes from 1 hour of ratting. If you have 10% taxes.

Then start adding income you get from refining, eventual docking fee if you have people in your space, rental agreements, POS mining. And I think most of thoose 58 mil should be covered by a large margin.

Ofcourse if you want to start adding cynojammers and jumpdriges in every system out of thoose 9 systems it`s gonna get expensive. But thats also the point.

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Originally by: Qlanth

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Originally by: Gramtar

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I proposed a good, well reasoned proposal to fix the imbalance between high sec mission running and 0.0/lowsec ratting back in August. I know it was brought up and voted on in the CSM, but I don't know what CCP's response to it was. You can read the whole proposal here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1137380

Most of my suggestions can be summed up by the following:
1) Improve the quality of spawns (max BS bounty) in all systems
2) Eliminate cruiser spawns from 0.0 (all spawns have at least one BS)
3) Add POS module and permanent outpost upgrade which improve truesec of the system they operate in

Of course, you could just double belt/gate rat bounties and be done with it if you want a simpler solution. I don't prefer that, because I feel very strongly players should be able to improve their space, and it tends to favor macro ratters more than regular players. Still, something obviously needs to be done, and something is better than nothing.

I think the fact there was no ratting upgrade suggested in the dev blog is very telling. Someone or some group of someones in CCP plain doesn't like ratting. When you look at the suggested mining upgrades, the rationale becomes more clear. They don't like static asteroid belts.

Around the time CCP removed npc's from the directional scanner (nerfing ratting - since you now have to warp to every belt to see what is up in a system), I recall reading comments from more than one dev that their goal was to pretty much eliminate static asteroid belts. Everything would be anomolies or dynamic plexes all the time.

Whether I'm right about this or not is immaterial. Maybe CCP loves ratting and mining as much as every other PvE activity. The problem is they don't recognize that ratting, in particular for 0.0, is a favored activity of actual players. The best thing about ratting is you can log in, warp to a belt, and start going to town. You don't need a probe launcher and astrometric skills, you don't need to spend an hour bouncing between half a dozen systems hoping you get lucky. You can just shoot stuff for a little bit and get some isk.

Here's something else CCP may not realize. Isk making generally isn't a social activity in EVE. At least, it isn't in 0.0. If the only way a player in 0.0 can make as much or more than a high sec mission runner is to get in a gang and cooperate in order to locate and take down some randomly spawned complex, then 0.0 is still crap.

On a final note, several of the upgrades suggested are hilarious in that they promise "significantly increase the chance...". The problem with them is you can't parse/prove the improvement. If they worked in some systems and not others, how would anyone know? Hey, the GM responds to your petition, you just must be unlucky. Upgrades/improvements that can't be parsed are terrible. People have known this since Everquest days, when certain character abilities plain didn't work.

YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

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I am quoting this because I want to make sure than someone in CCP reads it. Gramtar has had the best ideas for improving the reward to match the risk in 0.0 for as long as I can remember and if anyone truly has a grasp on what should be done I would say it was him.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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...

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Originally by: Gnulpie

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But what do you have as vision? Fixed grinding paths to unlock certain features and forcing people to do things which they don't like

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Originally by: EvilweaselFinance

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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...

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0.0 isn't an e-brothel why did you think anyone cared what you have to say

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Originally by: Aralis

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No not WE Destrim. You (and some others).

If the rewards were high and the maintenance low - this would still be crap. What happened to sandbox? What happened to epic?

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Originally by: Aralis

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And to everyone suggesting a non linear cost for sov the same questions. What's the point of the game if the game itself won't LET you conquer your neighbours? Is this hello kitty?

Most of us I think want sandbox, epic, freedom. We don't want to build our own little house in a nice row of identical houses with funny coloured windowboxes (which is about all these upgrades amount to). Even if the upgrades were any good what happened to game logic? How do you mystically upgrade the rats, the anomalies, the spawns? And if your answer is better detection why is this info available to everyone?

Stop hiding and get off your butts CCP and make improvements to the game. Make it bigger. Develop it. Stop trying to create a different game every six months. And when you do make changes follow through.

Even if we bought this pile of unmentionable **** at these new lower prices - what faith could we have that you wouldn't raise the maintenance costs soon as we bought it? What faith can we have in the stability of the game?

This is a roleplaying game. Ask yourself what is happening in the Eve world and make it possible.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Not sure why anyone would be surprised about the fact that there is massive opposition to these changes from 0.0 alliances who have currently covered the map with a static system of fortifications that cheaply cyno-jam and deny any realistic danger to their holdings while letting them sit back and collect income with less overall risk than the mission-runners in hisec suffer from can-flippers and the occasional suicide ganks.

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Originally by: SavageBastard

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Not sure why anyone would be surprised about the fact that there is massive opposition to these changes from 0.0 alliances who have currently covered the map with a static system of fortifications that cheaply cyno-jam and deny any realistic danger to their holdings while letting them sit back and collect income with less overall risk than the mission-runners in hisec suffer from can-flippers and the occasional suicide ganks.

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Leave it to Jade to not read a thread and then claim that high-sec is safer than 0.0 because of can flipping.

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Originally by: Tesal

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That said, I expect some tears. And I am glad Goons are crying buckets of them. I think the Goon tears make me reconsider this and more supportive of the patch. If it destroys the game, it could happen, but we were headed that direction anyway. Most of 0.0 is dead, a giant nap fest with out of control moon gold, the current situation has need a large shakeup, this is it.

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Originally by: Destrim

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Originally by: Qlanth

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Originally by: Gramtar

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I proposed a good, well reasoned proposal to fix the imbalance between high sec mission running and 0.0/lowsec ratting back in August. I know it was brought up and voted on in the CSM, but I don't know what CCP's response to it was. You can read the whole proposal here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1137380

Most of my suggestions can be summed up by the following:
1) Improve the quality of spawns (max BS bounty) in all systems
2) Eliminate cruiser spawns from 0.0 (all spawns have at least one BS)
3) Add POS module and permanent outpost upgrade which improve truesec of the system they operate in

Of course, you could just double belt/gate rat bounties and be done with it if you want a simpler solution. I don't prefer that, because I feel very strongly players should be able to improve their space, and it tends to favor macro ratters more than regular players. Still, something obviously needs to be done, and something is better than nothing.

I think the fact there was no ratting upgrade suggested in the dev blog is very telling. Someone or some group of someones in CCP plain doesn't like ratting. When you look at the suggested mining upgrades, the rationale becomes more clear. They don't like static asteroid belts.

Around the time CCP removed npc's from the directional scanner (nerfing ratting - since you now have to warp to every belt to see what is up in a system), I recall reading comments from more than one dev that their goal was to pretty much eliminate static asteroid belts. Everything would be anomolies or dynamic plexes all the time.

Whether I'm right about this or not is immaterial. Maybe CCP loves ratting and mining as much as every other PvE activity. The problem is they don't recognize that ratting, in particular for 0.0, is a favored activity of actual players. The best thing about ratting is you can log in, warp to a belt, and start going to town. You don't need a probe launcher and astrometric skills, you don't need to spend an hour bouncing between half a dozen systems hoping you get lucky. You can just shoot stuff for a little bit and get some isk.

Here's something else CCP may not realize. Isk making generally isn't a social activity in EVE. At least, it isn't in 0.0. If the only way a player in 0.0 can make as much or more than a high sec mission runner is to get in a gang and cooperate in order to locate and take down some randomly spawned complex, then 0.0 is still crap.

On a final note, several of the upgrades suggested are hilarious in that they promise "significantly increase the chance...". The problem with them is you can't parse/prove the improvement. If they worked in some systems and not others, how would anyone know? Hey, the GM responds to your petition, you just must be unlucky. Upgrades/improvements that can't be parsed are terrible. People have known this since Everquest days, when certain character abilities plain didn't work.

YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

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I am quoting this because I want to make sure than someone in CCP reads it. Gramtar has had the best ideas for improving the reward to match the risk in 0.0 for as long as I can remember and if anyone truly has a grasp on what should be done I would say it was him.

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I still think he's missing the necessity of a means by which security may be increased. The vulnerability to small roaming gangs will be increased ten-fold, especially since even small disruptions carry far greater implications: being unable to meet the monthly bill for sov.

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Originally by: Hertford

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I like how Jade spews forth a veritable wall of words that is just a rehash of CCPs aims without mentioning any of the issues brought up in the rest of this thread.

But then this is a terrible thread; Can you blame Jade for not reading it?

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Originally by: Qlanth

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Hahaha, oh my god, I didn't even see this part.

Plus he seems to think people are still mad about the prices which CCP already reneged on.

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Originally by: Amy Wang

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The problem is simple:

Increased cost for 0,0 maintenance makes it less desirable to live in 0.0 when you can earn on par cash in empire without maintenance costs.


The solution is also simple:

Either buff 0.0 money earning possibilities (not good, would lead to inflation and then we are back to status quo)

OR

nerf empire money earning possibilities really hard so 0.0 looks better in comparison

there, pick one (ideally the 2nd one) and do it

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Nice speech bro.

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Originally by: Destrim

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Originally by: Hertford

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I like how Jade spews forth a veritable wall of words that is just a rehash of CCPs aims without mentioning any of the issues brought up in the rest of this thread.

But then this is a terrible thread; Can you blame Jade for not reading it?

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True. Methinks it would be better if we re-focused to more constructive ends.

We've done enough flaming... we've made our point: we're not happy with the inf-hub upgrades, they are weaksauce. Penalizing large alliances for holding enormous amounts of space they don't use is all fine and well: it frees-up space. But that is not enough to draw people from empire... the benefits of settling a system are not enough.

So, let's move on to what we would rather have, and discuss the details of that. What do we thing should be used in the military/industrial/sovereignty divisions, and how, etc. What would be worthwhile benefit to draw people out into 0.0?

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Originally by: Qlanth

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Originally by: Destrim

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Originally by: Qlanth

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Originally by: Gramtar

---

I proposed a good, well reasoned proposal to fix the imbalance between high sec mission running and 0.0/lowsec ratting back in August. I know it was brought up and voted on in the CSM, but I don't know what CCP's response to it was. You can read the whole proposal here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1137380

Most of my suggestions can be summed up by the following:
1) Improve the quality of spawns (max BS bounty) in all systems
2) Eliminate cruiser spawns from 0.0 (all spawns have at least one BS)
3) Add POS module and permanent outpost upgrade which improve truesec of the system they operate in

Of course, you could just double belt/gate rat bounties and be done with it if you want a simpler solution. I don't prefer that, because I feel very strongly players should be able to improve their space, and it tends to favor macro ratters more than regular players. Still, something obviously needs to be done, and something is better than nothing.

I think the fact there was no ratting upgrade suggested in the dev blog is very telling. Someone or some group of someones in CCP plain doesn't like ratting. When you look at the suggested mining upgrades, the rationale becomes more clear. They don't like static asteroid belts.

Around the time CCP removed npc's from the directional scanner (nerfing ratting - since you now have to warp to every belt to see what is up in a system), I recall reading comments from more than one dev that their goal was to pretty much eliminate static asteroid belts. Everything would be anomolies or dynamic plexes all the time.

Whether I'm right about this or not is immaterial. Maybe CCP loves ratting and mining as much as every other PvE activity. The problem is they don't recognize that ratting, in particular for 0.0, is a favored activity of actual players. The best thing about ratting is you can log in, warp to a belt, and start going to town. You don't need a probe launcher and astrometric skills, you don't need to spend an hour bouncing between half a dozen systems hoping you get lucky. You can just shoot stuff for a little bit and get some isk.

Here's something else CCP may not realize. Isk making generally isn't a social activity in EVE. At least, it isn't in 0.0. If the only way a player in 0.0 can make as much or more than a high sec mission runner is to get in a gang and cooperate in order to locate and take down some randomly spawned complex, then 0.0 is still crap.

On a final note, several of the upgrades suggested are hilarious in that they promise "significantly increase the chance...". The problem with them is you can't parse/prove the improvement. If they worked in some systems and not others, how would anyone know? Hey, the GM responds to your petition, you just must be unlucky. Upgrades/improvements that can't be parsed are terrible. People have known this since Everquest days, when certain character abilities plain didn't work.

YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

---

I am quoting this because I want to make sure than someone in CCP reads it. Gramtar has had the best ideas for improving the reward to match the risk in 0.0 for as long as I can remember and if anyone truly has a grasp on what should be done I would say it was him.

---

I still think he's missing the necessity of a means by which security may be increased. The vulnerability to small roaming gangs will be increased ten-fold, especially since even small disruptions carry far greater implications: being unable to meet the monthly bill for sov.

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While that may be true it is certainly better than TWO GUARENTEED COSMIC ANOMALIES!!

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Originally by: Destrim

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So, let's move on to what we would rather have, and discuss the details of that. What do we thing should be used in the military/industrial/sovereignty divisions, and how, etc. What would be worthwhile benefit to draw people out into 0.0?

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