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CCP Fallout	Posted - 2009.11.06 21:19:00 - [1] Sovereignty is getting a fixin' in EVE Online: Dominion. Learn all about two upcoming changes in CCP Chronotis' newest dev blog. Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us

Trocent Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.06 21:20:00 - [2] Edited by: Trocent on 06/11/2009 21:21:00 first! I've always wanted to do that. Reading that sweet sweet joy now.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.11.06 21:27:00 - [3] excellent

Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.06 21:42:00 - [4] And please leave the costs as they're, or even up them a little bit
Rodrigo Talavera Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.06 21:43:00 - [5] reading now. looks good
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.06 21:54:00 - [6] Do those guaranteed anomalies/sites/pleyes respawn immediately? But even if they would, nothing will really change. Mining sites will still be crap - meaning that even if you find them, it might just be something worthless that you'd have to grind away or risk losing your industry level. Crap 0.0 will still be crap 0.0 thanks to not-really-better-than-lowsec rats and exploration content. Anomalies will still be less of an option than normal belt rattings thanks to mission-npc drops being significantly less than loot from belt-npc. To be honest, i expected a lot more from this in regards of actually upgrading space. If we're supposed to rely less on moons, there needs to be a good source of money in 0.0. Right now, this source is still in empire in lvl4 mission hubs.. ---------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
ChronoSphere Sturmgrenadier Inc Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.11.06 21:56:00 - [7] Jesus this is a lot of money. For a small alliance with only 3 outposts in a constellation, this is gonna cost 5.67 bil every 28 days. I really hope these upgrades do significantly increase the amount of money you can make, cause I dunno where else one can get the cash. The benefits of the upgrades has to outweigh the costs of the system, else whats the point? -------------- ~Vice Admiral, Executive Officer Sturmgrenadier, Inc. Join Sturmgrenadier today!
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.11.06 21:59:00 - [8] I do have a question, say an alliance, <4EVER> for example, gets sov and holds it for 100 days and then gets blown out of the system 4-DJG (fake system) by an alliance called <USUCK>. Will those 100 days mean anything to either alliance or is it reset permanently? I don't remember reading anything about it. And by mean anything: If <4EVER> were to retake 4-DJG back within 72 hours, would the 100 days mean anything? Or if <USUCK> kept it, would the work that <4EVER> had done benefit them in anyway? Please answer! Thanks --Isaac Signature is now under construction: check back in a couple weeks. AMAAR VICTOR! "You just can't fix stupid"
Undertow Latheus Minmatar Monolithic.	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:01:00 - [9] Awesome, sov is getting fixed, 0.0 is getting much more incentive, and owners can customize upgrade and personalize space. Now what the **** about lowsec?
Unfamed II Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:01:00 - [10] Nice wallet. Also, sov panel looks quite cool. Originally by: Sandslinger of CA So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre

SXYGeeK Gallente do you Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:03:00 - [11] " Pirate Magnets - add two additional guaranteed anomalies per level to your solar system Ore Prospecting Array - adds one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level to your solar system " what is meant by "guaranteed"? one per downtime?, one per day?, or one at any given time I might go looking? When we go and mine out a hidden belt or kill off an encounter how long will it take before another may spawn somewhere else in the system? -We So SeXy
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:05:00 - [12] Originally by: ChronoSphere Jesus this is a lot of money. For a small alliance with only 3 outposts in a constellation, this is gonna cost 5.67 bil every 28 days. I really hope these upgrades do significantly increase the amount of money you can make, cause I dunno where else one can get the cash. The benefits of the upgrades has to outweigh the costs of the system, else whats the point? So small alliances deserve 3 outposts to be cheap? It might actually mean you'll need to pull together. I can hardly imagine this cost will be that hard considering 1 person could make 20mil per day EASILY off ratting right now. You should have around 100 ppl, what are they doing? I might also add that they did mention the cost is around 5 POSes per system, so it begs the question of how are you managing right now? --Isaac Signature is now under construction: check back in a couple weeks. AMAAR VICTOR! "You just can't fix stupid"
EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:07:00 - [13] Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 06/11/2009 22:08:09 Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 06/11/2009 22:07:32 Is there any intention to buff anomolies or grav sites, cause currently they're thought to be pretty worthless and I can't see any alliance bothering to install those. Also, will Entrapment only spawn more of the DED plexes of that region (e.g. if installed in Deteroid would it only increas the spawn rate of the 7/10, 8/10 and 10/10 that usually spawn there) or will it spawn more types? Because otherwise I can see this completely crashing high-end deadspace equipment but not the ones that spawn only in empire.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Isaac Starstriker So small alliances deserve 3 outposts to be cheap? Yes. That's just one constellation, barely holding ten people actually making money with the current system. Even with increased spawn rates of exploration content, i don't see it raising beyond 20. This means even with an extremely high tax, they will have a huge problem paying upkeep. Much easier to just claim the three outpost systems for pvp stashes, and make the money in empire just like before. Considering a small alliance is unlikely to hold on any space worth something (sec status lower than -0.5), this is exactly how it's done at the moment. ---------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:16:00 - [15] So this is why you were holding of talking about the upgrades. They are hilariously bad.
Kalissa D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:19:00 - [16] The bigger alliances will be crying buckets over those sov changes. Nice!
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:19:00 - [17] most interesting
EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:20:00 - [18] Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 06/11/2009 22:20:45 After looking at this, unless you radically alter the following, this is going to fall flat on its face: 1)Anomolies - currently considered worthless, and are never run. That you have more of them is not helpful since the ones we have aren't used. 2)Grav sites - I believe these have too few minerals to be worth bothering with and nobody in 0.0 uses them. 3)Profession sites - now that interfaces are worthless Radar sites are not worth the time to run. With the collapse of the salvage market, neither are mag sites. This will be even worse when the POS market is glutted making faction POS's and pos mods worthless. I realize you've probably put a lot of work into this but you're building up 0.0 by increasing the amount of things that are already considered worthless and so right now, the only upgrades that are worth a damn are Entrapment (DED complexes are still worth something, though the market will rapidly crash if not done right) and the flux generator (can generate more wormholes to empire for logistics). If you bother to fix those three things, these upgrades could be worth something. If you don't, they will not be. Originally by: Kalissa The bigger alliances will be crying buckets over those sov changes. Nice! not really
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:21:00 - [19] So how exactly is a small alliance with a handful of systems supposed to realistically support themselves with these upgrades? Anamolies are mostly crap, plexes are few in number compared with your projected occupant numbers*, mining sites can be crap ...
Equinox Daedalus Caldari The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:23:00 - [20] Well going off these figures, 1 system with sov, infrastructure hub, cyno jammer and jumpbridges will cost over 2 bil / month CVA alone has the most outposts per region, so i'd figure just for outposts alone thats probally 20+ bil isk a month CCP, you can't really be serious. We go from fighting for something we own to paying for something we own, paying ridiclous amounts of isk, atleast from my general point of view. What incentive is it to actually keep our space anymore? you say you want to use CVA as an example, but, you actually seem to want to destroy what we have built. You should of left us disbanded, because your doing a real good job of what most other alliances haven't been able to do. Where is this Mythical isk influx going to come from, to keep providence up and running? We'd be better off moving back to empire. How is 1 or 2 explorions going to INCREASE supstantally the isk generation. Tragic really. The Legion of Spoon : Upon wings of wax I fly, never to close too the sun

Sathrai EXTERMINATUS. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:23:00 - [21] Am I reading this correctly that we are now looking at around 1.4bil/month per system we want to run jumpbridges through? On top of the fuel costs of the tower and the bridge? Really?
feffrey	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:24:00 - [22] What corp has 10 trillion in their master wallet?
Avatoin	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:24:00 - [23] 1. So just to confirm I read this right. POSs belonging to the alliance holding SOV will NOT have to be fueled, instead the holding corporation will have to pay in upkeep equivalent to five large POSs plus the cost of additional upgrades? Am I right? 2. Will modules like jump-bridges still have to be fueled individually? 3. Will an increase in Military also mean an increase in the spawn rate of NPCs in belts or an increase in value of those NPCs? 4. Will upgrades to the hub be visible (ie. like outpost attachments)?
Hrin Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:26:00 - [24] Can you artificially upgrade some constellations on sisi so we can see these upgrades in action?
mynnna Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:26:00 - [25] Edited by: mynnna on 06/11/2009 22:29:46 Edited by: mynnna on 06/11/2009 22:27:24 Originally by: Kalissa The bigger alliances will be crying buckets over those sov changes. Nice! Yeah this guy is pretty much right, especially if people really are forced to live with "50-100 people per system" as you guys dream. Anomalies are mostly garbage. They need to respawn instantly and there need to be more than there are to begin with. Mining is a garbage profession. Numerous proposals have been given to making it less worthless in 0.0, but suffice it to say, the mining fundamentals need to be addressed if the ore upgrades are going to be worthwhile. The DED plex thing is okay, although considering a single person can do them if he uses enough accounts (none of them really require any more than triple boxing), all that upgrade will do is enrich a relatively small group of people. Don't expect it to help the "masses" much. The ~mini profession sites~ are garbage now, something to make more of them spawn won't change that. Datacore prices dropped off, the decryptors are slow sells because everyone only needs one, most T2 rig bpcs are worthless since most T2 rigs are worthless, etc. Basically everything that comes from these sites isn't really worth the time; they need a buff if you want to see people bothering with them. And finally we have the quantum flux generator. I'm no expert but I imagine these will only get less and less valuable as T3 gets cheaper and cheaper. So yeah, even without touching everything ELSE, this is pretty much garbage, through and through. <edit> Originally by: EvilweaselFinance Oh, also, all these upgrades besides the pirate magnet and ore prospecting array (which unless fixed will be unused) evade alliance taxes so you can't replace the lost r64 income. There's also this. If you imagine people are going to replace moon income with ratting income you're terribly naive.
Letrange Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:27:00 - [26] Ok, question here: Is the intention for this to work like static wormholes? I.E. if you mine out an entire "static" grav site it will immediately respawn after it de-spawns (which in the case of most un-bugged grav sites, a certain amount of time after the last roid is popped [trigger] and the last player vessel leaves), or will it only respawn at downtime? In the first case the "low ends" will need to get mined out before the site respawns immediately (which would be GREAT). In the second case it may take a number of days for the site to despawn if you don't forcibly mine it out (i.e. just go for the highs and ignore the lows and wait for a respawn). But even when it finally despawns, you still need to wait for downtime before the next one appears. Will these new grav sites be like "k-space" grav sites or like "w-space" grav sites?
EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:27:00 - [27] Oh, also, all these upgrades besides the pirate magnet and ore prospecting array (which unless fixed will be unused) evade alliance taxes so you can't replace the lost r64 income.
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:29:00 - [28] Originally by: Equinox Daedalus Where is this Mythical isk influx going to come from, to keep providence up and running? We'd be better off moving back to empire. How is 1 or 2 explorions going to INCREASE supstantally the isk generation. On average 1 exploration/DED site nets 100mil isk (might be a bit more, im using very low value of TIERs alone + low faction stuff drops). Times 30 days = 3bil/month (again: very low values). And now think if you hit 10/10 once per week (and its possible) you can get 0,33% chance of 2+bil isk. With 4 weeks a month you get 4x 33% chance of phat loot which will cover the system. Result? USE goddamn system. If you USE it and FARM it - you can get ISK which can partially pay for system and rest goes to your wallet. If you dont use system - why do you even bother keeping/upgrading it?
Virtuozzo The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:29:00 - [29] Hehehe, Exodus all over again.
Mashie Saldana BFG Tech	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:30:00 - [30] Originally by: Equinox Daedalus Well going off these figures, 1 system with sov, infrastructure hub, cyno jammer and jumpbridges will cost over 2 bil / month CVA alone has the most outposts per region, so i'd figure just for outposts alone thats probally 20+ bil isk a month CCP, you can't really be serious. How much do you pay in POS fuel currently in comparision?

Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:31:00 - [31] You people do not understand what Dominion is all about, do you? Dominion is not ment to generate more ISK in your space, but to destroy tons of ISK holding on to it. A high-end like Dysprosium or Promethium will still be worth some ISK. Some people see it around 3 Billion per Month, so a single high-end pays for two systems with a cyno-jammer allready. Stop whining
EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:32:00 - [32] Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 06/11/2009 22:34:03 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Equinox Daedalus Where is this Mythical isk influx going to come from, to keep providence up and running? We'd be better off moving back to empire. How is 1 or 2 explorions going to INCREASE supstantally the isk generation. On average 1 exploration/DED site nets 100mil isk (might be a bit more, im using very low value of TIERs alone + low faction stuff drops). Times 30 days = 3bil/month (again: very low values). And now think if you hit 10/10 once per week (and its possible) you can get 0,33% chance of 2+bil isk. With 4 weeks a month you get 4x 33% chance of phat loot which will cover the system. Result? USE goddamn system. If you USE it and FARM it - you can get ISK which can partially pay for system and rest goes to your wallet. If you dont use system - why do you even bother keeping/upgrading it? DED plex money evades alliance taxes. Originally by: Vivian Azure You people do not understand what Dominion is all about, do you? Dominion is not ment to generate more ISK in your space, but to destroy tons of ISK holding on to it. A high-end like Dysprosium or Promethium will still be worth some ISK. Some people see it around 3 Billion per Month, so a single high-end pays for two systems with a cyno-jammer allready. Stop whining Dominion was explicitly intended to allow you to make more money as an average player in 0.0 and currently it is failing.
mynnna Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:33:00 - [33] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Equinox Daedalus Where is this Mythical isk influx going to come from, to keep providence up and running? We'd be better off moving back to empire. How is 1 or 2 explorions going to INCREASE supstantally the isk generation. On average 1 exploration/DED site nets 100mil isk (might be a bit more, im using very low value of TIERs alone + low faction stuff drops). Times 30 days = 3bil/month (again: very low values). And now think if you hit 10/10 once per week (and its possible) you can get 0,33% chance of 2+bil isk. With 4 weeks a month you get 4x 33% chance of phat loot which will cover the system. Result? USE goddamn system. If you USE it and FARM it - you can get ISK which can partially pay for system and rest goes to your wallet. If you dont use system - why do you even bother keeping/upgrading it? You literally cannot count any loot obtained from any plex in the money gained. You want to try to audit people running plexes and force them to pay taxes on the loot they get? Yeah okay have fun with that impossible task. When it comes to plexes the only income you can count on the alliance seeing is ratting tax from bounties. Originally by: Vivian Azure You people do not understand what Dominion is all about, do you? Dominion is not ment to generate more ISK in your space, but to destroy tons of ISK holding on to it. A high-end like Dysprosium or Promethium will still be worth some ISK. Some people see it around 3 Billion per Month, so a single high-end pays for two systems with a cyno-jammer allready. Stop whining People are "whining" because these much vaunted changes are pretty lousy. Not that I'd expect an empire dweller like yourself to get it, of course.
Lumy Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:35:00 - [34] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Pirate Magnets - add two additional guaranteed anomalies per level to your solar system I hope this means that new anomaly will spawn right after completion/despawn one of "guaranteed" anomalies. Right? C/D Please. Joomla! in EVE - IGB compatible CMS.
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Mashie Saldana How much do you pay in POS fuel currently in comparision? Yea your estimate is much too low. You need to add your current fuel bill to the sov bill. Since you still need pos. Just name the expansion: Exodus to NPC space.
Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:36:00 - [36] Originally by: EvilweaselFinance snip Dominion was explicitly intended to allow you to make more money as an average player in 0.0 and currently it is failing. Show me where CCP stated this... ...and yes I'm an alt.
Xiodus Acap	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:37:00 - [37] Edited by: Xiodus Acap on 06/11/2009 22:37:46 Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Equinox Daedalus Well going off these figures, 1 system with sov, infrastructure hub, cyno jammer and jumpbridges will cost over 2 bil / month CVA alone has the most outposts per region, so i'd figure just for outposts alone thats probally 20+ bil isk a month CCP, you can't really be serious. How much do you pay in POS fuel currently in comparision? A large pos is something like 200mil a month for a large. Even assuming they have 2 pos for jump bridges and 1 for a cyno jammer that's still only 600mil a month.
adriaans Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:37:00 - [38] Great stuff BUT!!!! HOLY CRAP EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You want more people out there, but a small alliance like us (just over 50 members at moment), HOW ON EARTH are we gonna get all that isk!? A single system will easy end up costing 50-75mill per day - THATS 2.25 BILLION per month! (btw, thats 10 deathstarts worth of fuel in sov 1, not 5) to compare: 50 members at 10% tax generates about 150-200 mill isk on a good month! And then there's the ''Resource upgrades cost a relatively small amount of ISK (we are looking at a range of 50-500 million ISK) '' 500 MILLION is not a SMALL AMOUNT! Our alliance had been really looking forward to Dominion, however there's NO WAY we can suddenly generate an additional 2 billion isk. All of us are very dissapointed because of this. couldn't you make the first system cost say a fraction of that and second sys jump up to that level so that alliances like us can actually join in on it? -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr! Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail. QFT!
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:37:00 - [39] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 06/11/2009 22:38:22 Originally by: EvilweaselFinance DED plex money evades alliance taxes. I know it. As an owner of space its your problem to tax it somehow for use (renter system) or just deny others people plexing in station system. Point is - the upgrade gives enough ISK to cover costs, you just have to take it somehow. Quote: You literally cannot count any loot obtained from any plex in the money gained. You want to try to audit people running plexes and force them to pay taxes on the loot they get? Yeah okay have fun with that impossible task. When it comes to plexes the only income you can count on the alliance seeing is ratting tax from bounties. Impossible by your standards? Maybe learn from MM how to farm plexes and deny others from doing it (cosmos radar - which is more random than sure plex in one system).
EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:37:00 - [40] Originally by: Vivian Azure Originally by: EvilweaselFinance snip Dominion was explicitly intended to allow you to make more money as an average player in 0.0 and currently it is failing. Show me where CCP stated this... ...and yes I'm an alt. every time they talked about it that's the whole point of the upgrades

Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:38:00 - [41] Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 06/11/2009 22:42:42 Originally by: Vivian Azure You people do not understand what Dominion is all about, do you? Dominion is not ment to generate more ISK in your space, but to destroy tons of ISK holding on to it. Actually, if you bothered to read the earlier devblogs on the subject, it's supposed to be pumping up the value of individual systems to the point where a non-hueg alliance could realistically support themselves through either their own activities or tenants on a handful of systems. A big part of this would be incentivising 0.0 enough to pull people out of empire space. Too bad the upgrades that were supposed to make this happen are all worthless save the plexing upgrade (until deadspace loot prices tank) and possibly the WH upgrade. {edit}@ Vivian: Alluded to in: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=703 http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=695 http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=691 Dev posts elsewhere are a bit more precise on the matter{/edit}
mynnna Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:38:00 - [42] Edited by: mynnna on 06/11/2009 22:41:52 Originally by: Vivian Azure Originally by: EvilweaselFinance snip Dominion was explicitly intended to allow you to make more money as an average player in 0.0 and currently it is failing. Show me where CCP stated this... ...and yes I'm an alt. I'd have to go dig sources, but their whole idea was to boost personal income while reducing the emphasis on alliance income; hence, nerf moon income and boost ratting/mining/etc, while simultaneously forcing people to use less space. These upgrades don't really accomplish that. <E> As it stands right now you get maybe 4-5 anomalies per system. Add to that ten anomalies from a maxed out upgrade and assume the ideal where they respawn instantly. Each anomaly is really only good for one person. Grats your system can support fifteen ratters, plus one or two more in the normal belts. Mining isn't worth the time so we can count that out, mini profession sites aren't worth the time, they're out. Wormholes are debatable, and DED plexes only allow a few more people to make money there. Its a far cry from 50-100 per system.
Equinox Daedalus Caldari The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:41:00 - [43] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Equinox Daedalus Where is this Mythical isk influx going to come from, to keep providence up and running? We'd be better off moving back to empire. How is 1 or 2 explorions going to INCREASE supstantally the isk generation. On average 1 exploration/DED site nets 100mil isk (might be a bit more, im using very low value of TIERs alone + low faction stuff drops). Times 30 days = 3bil/month (again: very low values). And now think if you hit 10/10 once per week (and its possible) you can get 0,33% chance of 2+bil isk. With 4 weeks a month you get 4x 33% chance of phat loot which will cover the system. Result? USE goddamn system. If you USE it and FARM it - you can get ISK which can partially pay for system and rest goes to your wallet. If you dont use system - why do you even bother keeping/upgrading it? Well we do use the systems. Providence is problaly the most population density area of 0.0 in eve. Ask everyone who comes around to pvp here. CVA runs a NRDS polcy inviting everyone into thier space, to run plexes, mine, live, explore 0.0. Indeed many alliances got thier 1st taste of 0.0 via Providence and the deliverance mission. We build outpost after outpost up, because, well thats what ccp said/told us we needed to do. Your statment hinges on the fact that inorder to pay for the space we have, we basically have to abandon EVERYTHING we believe in , shut out all neutrals, force payment from individual corps and its members to TAX them to death. CVA are not any pinko commies (no offense to any). We don't force people to pay for things, we dont' expand past our own ability to defend our areas, we don't ask anything of anyone to come to cva space but simply to live wand fly with honor, yet, ccp want to destroy that which they are holding up as the "example" they are building this patch off. I can't see how individual wealth runs /pays for any of this. Providence is probally the poorist region in regards to assets/items in the area, and yes, while plexes do exisit I'm not sure how individual wealth translates to alliance wealth. The Legion of Spoon : Upon wings of wax I fly, never to close too the sun
Drave McClay GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:42:00 - [44] This is utter garbage. This is not an improvement AT ALL. What incentive does anyone have owning space? Why not just live in NPC space. You increase the costs of EVERYTHING, and the other side of the equation (better systems via better ratting, mining, etc) is unchanged? Anomalies are **, everything but the 10/10 complex is **. I'll be taking my $30 a month elsewhere, you idiots are unforgivable.
el caido School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:43:00 - [45] Wow. Goonswarm tears aside, I have a serious question: Originally by: devblog The industrial index is based upon two activities taking place within your solar system. These are mining and mini-professions are based around the volume of ore mined and the successful use of hacking or archaeology modules within your space. By "successful use", is this governed by module success or the quantity of goods retrieved? Obviously, being governed by the latter - effectively chance-based - is a horrible idea. Cheers on the changes, CCP.
Vuk Lau 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:44:00 - [46] CCP missed the essence of what Dominion was supposed to be. Just to be perfectly clear Morsus Mihi anticipated something like this ages ago, and as holding the most ****tiest region in New Eden we can finally make something from it, but I dont see a one single incentive for smaller entities (corps/alliances) to hold sov, cause it will be bloody expensive for them. Macrominers and macroratters will flourish. Now I totally understand why UaxDeath was happy as puppy when he read the devblog. Only good thing I see is for smaller "pvp" entities who are living in NPC stations. They will have awesome amount of bots to shoot.
Chalrynn Illyndar Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:44:00 - [47] Originally by: adriaans Great stuff BUT!!!! HOLY CRAP EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You want more people out there, but a small alliance like us (just over 50 members at moment), HOW ON EARTH are we gonna get all that isk!? A single system will easy end up costing 50-75mill per day - THATS 2.25 BILLION per month! (btw, thats 10 deathstarts worth of fuel in sov 1, not 5) to compare: 50 members at 10% tax generates about 150-200 mill isk on a good month! And then there's the ''Resource upgrades cost a relatively small amount of ISK (we are looking at a range of 50-500 million ISK) '' 500 MILLION is not a SMALL AMOUNT! Our alliance had been really looking forward to Dominion, however there's NO WAY we can suddenly generate an additional 2 billion isk. All of us are very dissapointed because of this. couldn't you make the first system cost say a fraction of that and second sys jump up to that level so that alliances like us can actually join in on it? Also throw in the fact that it's not just a walk in the park out their either. Ontop of the 2+billion a month for ONE SINGLE SYSTEM they'll have to deal with roaming gangs and all those fun politics that come with 0.0, not to mention the carrier/dreads needed to defend said space, the people to fly them... etc. This is not even remotely within the reach of smaller alliances for even a single system, and a lot of people just aren't interested in having to form 500+ strong alliances and it looks like that's basically what will be needed to have a couple systems.
Quesa Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:45:00 - [48] Nothing I have seen so far has even come close to SUGGESTING we will be able to find activity for even 100 people for more than an hour in a single, fully upgraded system. 1 person can clear 4 anoms in an hour. 2 people can clear a DED 7-9/10 plex in an hour. Mining is **** until you fix Grav sites and give us a reason to actually mine VELD. All I've seen are enough activities to keep 20-30 people busy for 3-4 hours. I'm begging you to explain how you even came CLOSE to the number of 100-150 being able to keep themselves busy in a single upgraded system. I'm not trolling, I REALLY REALLY REALLY want you to explain to us how this is even remotely possible.
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:46:00 - [49] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 06/11/2009 22:47:57 Originally by: el caido Wow. Goonswarm tears aside, I have a serious question: Originally by: devblog The industrial index is based upon two activities taking place within your solar system. These are mining and mini-professions are based around the volume of ore mined and the successful use of hacking or archaeology modules within your space. By "successful use", is this governed by module success or the quantity of goods retrieved? Obviously, being governed by the latter - effectively chance-based - is a horrible idea. Cheers on the changes, CCP. Id guess it means the 1st one. Which is easily farmable then. Just leave t1 frig with analyzer/codebraker in complex and put heavy book on F1 key = codebreaker. Can gets open, after 2-3 minutes it closes itself when stuck F1 kicks in and opens it again. Tho it doesnt matter - radars/magnetos are ** anyways. Those 2 lol-anomalies will give more isk than perma radar-site in your system. As for plex values. Sansha/blood/angel plexes are still quite decent. Serps - i dunno (sorry). Guristas are getting worthless now (yay farmers, but thx for cheap b-type mods). Drone region dudes should cry now. Who cares about "higher chance of drone plex" lol. Quote:** I'm begging you to explain how you even came CLOSE to the number of 100-150 being able to keep themselves busy in a single upgraded system. I'm not trolling, I REALLY REALLY REALLY want you to explain to us how this is even remotely possible. Funny but i agree with this. The upgrades shown will barely occupy 5-10 people (thats excluding normal belts in system).
Pringlescan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:47:00 - [50] I still don't understand why ccp can't figure out why people in 0.0 don't mine. Its not because there isn't ENOUGH of it, its because its not worth the isk/hour compared to ratting. Giving us more roids of the same type doesn't matter if no one is mining the ones we already have anyway. Sure there are a couple of peoples with bots who run 5 hulks at the same time but thats .1% of the eve 0.0 population. Also how do you expect any alliance without r64s to hold more then one system? OR expect people to fight wars of conquest when winning would be more expensive then losing?

Equinox Daedalus Caldari The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:49:00 - [51] Edited by: Equinox Daedalus on 06/11/2009 22:51:37 Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Equinox Daedalus Well going off these figures, 1 system with sov, infrastructure hub, cyno jammer and jumpbridges will cost over 2 bil / month CVA alone has the most outposts per region, so i'd figure just for outposts alone thats probally 35+ bil isk a month CCP, you can't really be serious. How much do you pay in POS fuel currently in comparision? Tlos as a corp runs aproxx 30-40 pos's 4 jb (which wouldnt' come down, 1 cyno jammer (which wouldnt' come down), and the rest are large reaction pos's which pay for the jb pos's, cyno jammer pos's. reaction pos with alot of offline armorment incase of attack. We do not control any main entrances into provi/ so we don't run aren't forced to run pos's of full deathstar magnatude, so we really wouldn't save any isk. Infact due to this patch we will see an INCREASE in pos fuel usage due to the sovernty changes. Also due to the INCREASE in spawns of high end plexes I can't see anything but the decrease of high end module prices. The Legion of Spoon : Upon wings of wax I fly, never to close too the sun
Mr McAlt	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Drave McClay This is utter garbage. This is not an improvement AT ALL. What incentive does anyone have owning space? Why not just live in NPC space. You increase the costs of EVERYTHING, and the other side of the equation (better systems via better ratting, mining, etc) is unchanged? Anomalies are **, everything but the 10/10 complex is .. The point is that it is more difficult to own too much space, giving smaller entities a chance to move into the space the big alliances are going to have to leave. It is more expensive to run a system than before, but the amount of isk you can make will increase much, much more. Quote:** I'll be taking my $30 a month elsewhere, you idiots are unforgivable. Can I haz your stuff?
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:50:00 - [53] ... and I THOUGHT 0.0 sucked
Johraiken Fenris Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:51:00 - [54] 1-2Bn isk / month / system. This is way too expensive for many smaller alliances. Especially as it comes in addition to the POS fuel. A lot of towers now have some moon mining on it, how crappy it may be, but it helps with the fuel bill. You can remove the deathstars, but the are less of those than you think. And how do you get the ISK back as an alliance/corporation? Vast majority will disappear in personal wallets. If you rake up the tax (and you can only tax your own people), players will just go missioning in empire. So, where is the upgrade that gives 10% of all bounties paid to pod pilots in this system to the sov-holding corp? But how can you tax mining and hacking/archeology?
CynoNet Two	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:51:00 - [55] This is hilarious. After years of trying to encourage players to move to 0.0, you just slapped a huge tax on it and made it virtually unprofitable. Most of the upgrades mentioned derive their income from means that cannot be directly taxed or monitored. This means alliances will be forced to use convoluted out-of-game rental schemes until Treaties, which we probably won't see until the middle of next year at the soonest. Owning 0.0 space is now far less attractive than before. Not only is it actually less profitable than high-sec mission running, but you've managed to make it more dangerous by trying to concentrate everyone making money into smaller, easily ganked pockets. Instead of improving conq space, you have taken what's already there and just increased it so more people can do it in the same area. Unless the average isk/hour per player rate rises as these systems are upgraded, conq space is worth no more than NPC 0.0 or even lowsec. Hell, its worth less because of the huge bills needed to hold it. 1) Make sov costs scale with sov claimed as originally promised. This provides easy entry for smaller groups while limiting larger ones. For example, claiming a single system with an alliance is 100m per month. Claiming two systems is 102m per system (204m total). 2) Increase the average isk/hour ratio earned by people living in conq space. Higher value rats, not more of them. Higher yield ores so that people can manage local industry, rather than still require bulk compressed imports from empire. Add scaling NPC buy orders for complex drops to player owned outposts, with tax income going to the owning corporation. 3) The expense of logistics routes is going to mean small and medium alliances are reduced to single easily ganked routes without alternative. Instead have upgrade costs scale the more upgrades are installed. This means that operating a jump bridge upgrade on a simple linking system will cost less than putting a bridge upgrade on a cynojammed system with CSAAs to defend.
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:52:00 - [56] Originally by: Mr McAlt but the amount of isk you can make will increase much, much more. no, it wont. Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:53:00 - [57] Is the point of this Exodus pt2 expansion to return eve to pre-Exodus state?
Vadinho GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:53:00 - [58] this devblog is really reassuring -- it sets to rest any claims of developer bias towards one alliance or another because clearly not one of the developers actually plays eve online oh boy an extra hidden asteroid belt per level it'll sure be worth upgrading that so everyone gets a whole new entry to ignore on their system scanner
Jei'son Bladesmith The Storm Knights The Cool Kids Club	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:53:00 - [59] I'll be happy to finally automate my many bills \o/ by many i mean like 6 im a lazy, lazy man
iP0D	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:53:00 - [60] Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin Actually, if you bothered to read the earlier devblogs on the subject, it's supposed to be pumping up the value of individual systems to the point where a non-hueg alliance could realistically support themselves through either their own activities or tenants on a handful of systems. A big part of this would be incentivising 0.0 enough to pull people out of empire space. Too bad the upgrades that were supposed to make this happen are all worthless save the plexing upgrade (until deadspace loot prices tank) and possibly the WH upgrade. I was kinda looking forward to farming the poor sods who were actually going to try and grab a bit of 0.0 when the big blocks compress themselves, since the idea was to repopulate space based on a reward model that could compete with the easy afk empire syndrome on alts. I guess that is out of the window now, if not because they won't move to try, but because the ones that do are going to get farmed to death for nice griefing cloaking gank farming kills.

EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:54:00 - [61] Originally by: Mr McAlt but the amount of isk you can make will increase much, much more. What we're telling you is that none of the upgrades are even worth the cost of the upkeep.
mynnna Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:56:00 - [62] Originally by: Mr McAlt Originally by: Drave McClay This is utter garbage. This is not an improvement AT ALL. What incentive does anyone have owning space? Why not just live in NPC space. You increase the costs of EVERYTHING, and the other side of the equation (better systems via better ratting, mining, etc) is unchanged? Anomalies are **, everything but the 10/10 complex is .. The point is that it is more difficult to own too much space, giving smaller entities a chance to move into the space the big alliances are going to have to leave. It is more expensive to run a system than before, but the amount of isk you can make will increase much, much more.** No. It won't. I didn't see something like "oh yeah and rat bounties were tripled across the board" or "we have introduced super-ores to 0.0", so there's nothing here that increases a player's personal income. Oh yeah, and anomalies (as far as I know) can't spawn officers, another way in which it is inferior to normal belt ratting.
Gripen Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:56:00 - [63] There is nothing about the way to reduce indicies by killing local population... So no new incentives for small gangs many have expected from this expansion?
PaulTheWise	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:56:00 - [64] Originally by: Isaac Starstriker Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 06/11/2009 22:05:45 I might also add that they did mention the cost is around 5 POSes per system, so it begs the question of how are you managing right now? Very, very, very easy, and I get the feeling quite everyone is overlooking this (especially CCP, with prices like this): Reactions. Even with very common moons I, personally, without any help from my corp or alliance (other then the use of JBs), can keep up 6 large towers and make 1 billion profit per month (probably more, but I CBA to do the maths right now :P ). Towers are self sufficient if you're not a total ****** (and are willing to empty the silos regularly). As this 'Dominion' doesn't seem to add any real way to add revenue it's just a 2b ISK sink/month, unless we're all missing something someplace.
PMolkenthin League Of Shadows.	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:56:00 - [65] I'm a bit dissapointed by these changes too. The only worth-while upgrades I see there are maybe the Entrapment and the Ore prospecting array. How about an upgrade that massively increases the amount/quality of NPC spawns in the belts? At least that way a 30 man corp could all grind rats in a 10 belt system and make some decent ISK. Also, I was hoping the military upgrades would include something to improve the defensive capabilities of a system, ie gate sentries, cloak jammers, or something cool so we could fortify and protect our system from invaders. If the amount of ISK that can be made in an upgraded system isnt worth the cost of upgrading, then nobody will bother.
Jelek Coro Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:57:00 - [66] I thought you wanted people in nul sec? Those upgrades are quite laughable (see the Goon posts for details). How many people do you expect a system to realistically hold with those si called upgrades? NPC nul sec will get very crowded, the rest will be empty
Stretchmeat Crotchquake GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:57:00 - [67] Edited by: Stretchmeat Crotchquake on 06/11/2009 22:58:30 The first thing you should be asking when you design these upgrades are "are these actually more lucrative than a single level 4 agent?" The answer in all of these cases is "no," and with massive upkeep costs attached and nerfed moon values, 0.0 will be nothing more than a massive ISK sink. There will be virtually no reason to base out of conquerable space instead of NPC space, since NPC space will have better perks and no upkeep costs except office rentals. CONCEPTUALLY, this is a good approach, but anomalies need a massive buff and the number of these additions need massive buffs as well. 10 anomalies is not a good upgrade for a system that is supposed to scale to 100+ people per solar system.
Riu Stuka Caldari GeoCorp. Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:00:00 - [68] How shall we as a corp even pay for 1 system with the great moons we have in our space. All we got that was left is a CC reactin, well i not see that paying us the 1 to 2 billion for the system. And as mentioned before, what will the corp bring the upgrades. How will my corp be able to profit form the neutral ratting in our system, or even the blue/alliance mate, i only can tax the bunties of my corp members... everything else will just disapear into personal wallets. And we still have to pay fuel for our reaction POS's... so theres nothing to save here either...
Elo Behram Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:01:00 - [69] anomaly rats are awful compared to belt rats, they're tougher to kill and have nerfed salvage/loot tables hth
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:02:00 - [70] It's great to see CCP's anti-solo concepts ("We're gonna make it suck unless you're in a big corp") get applied to 0.0 ("We're gonna make it suck unless you're in a big alliance"). How the heck are the little guys supposed to get a foothold in 0.0 with these crappy upgrades at these crappy prices?

Hykke Free Imperial Vikings	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:02:00 - [71] I think CCP forgot to add the "Asteroid belt beakon" upgrade, that spawns 5 more asteroid belts per level, available for public mining and ratting. As well as the "Concord communication jammer" that lowers the actual security rating of the system by -0.3 per level, causing nasty rats to appear in the belts
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:04:00 - [72] Originally by: Hykke I think CCP forgot to add the "Asteroid belt beakon" upgrade, that spawns 5 more asteroid belts per level, available for public mining and ratting. As well as the "Concord communication jammer" that lowers the actual security rating of the system by -0.3 per level, causing nasty rats to appear in the belts yes more battlecruiser/cruiser spawns to plow through wait no there should not be a single goddamn battlecruiser/cruiser/frigate rat in 0.0 unless its faction. Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan
Quesa Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:04:00 - [73] I may like shooting them but I am actually agreeing, strongly I might add, with Goon posters on this topic.
Manfred Rickenbocker	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:05:00 - [74] It was mentioned by CCP Sisyphus in this thread that there would be a decay mechanic in place. Some questions: How will decay be implemented? Will there be a way to know what the actual point accrual will be per-action? Will we be able to see the points required for the next level? Will the points-per-level be a static value like the number of days with sov, or will it scale based on the available resources per-system (# belts, ore quality, truesec, etc)? ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times.
Niding Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:08:00 - [75] Edited by: Niding on 06/11/2009 23:08:32 I see little incentive to actually upgrade the systems considering the cost. As has been pointed out; there doesnt seem like there are any good ways to tap into the potential wealth given by upgrades. Neutrals that might use these 100 man belt systems (or whatever they are claimed to be able to accomodate) are rarely channeling isk generated into the SOV holding alliances wallet. So, either NRDS gets abandoned and we exploit the wealth ourselves, or we subsidise the 0.0 project with even MORE high sec generated isk. Cant really see it being worth it. Better off running high sec missions, and fly around 0.0 shooting stuff "deathmatch" style tbh. A pity. Btw: how will this encourage smaller entities to build themselves a patch of SOV?
mynnna Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:08:00 - [76] Originally by: Quesa I may like shooting them but I am actually agreeing, strongly I might add, with Goon posters on this topic. Well, like us or not, we're knowledgable about the game and share the same concerns about it as every other 0.0 dweller. We just got to the thread faster
Vadinho GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:09:00 - [77] Originally by: Quesa I may like shooting them but I am actually agreeing, strongly I might add, with Goon posters on this topic. see what you've done ccp you've got atlas agreeing with us this is how bad of ideas you have
Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:09:00 - [78] Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51 When I read crap like you're posting here... oh boy. The upgrade is ment to draw tons of money out of the whole system. Players that strive for personal profits are not welcome in 0.0, they can run LvL 4 missions. 0.0 is about groups playing together, so all the money that can be made in a system is ment to fuel the alliance/corps holding the systems. I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable. Stop thinking about yourself and being egoistic. Dominion is ment to make people work together for their systems and space, and not just have a few people fueling the POSs. This is the best thing CCP has ever came up with tbh.
iP0D	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:09:00 - [79] Originally by: Gripen There is nothing about the way to reduce indicies by killing local population... So no new incentives for small gangs many have expected from this expansion? Your new incentive is to cloak and camp, and if you see something use black ops portal to bring in 20 bombers, and thus kill off any people that try to make use of space that they just spent lots of isk on to upgrade, and cost their alliance not just the income but also cost them their jammers and bridges since they cannot do enough ratting to keep them online.
Crylnish Hlar Vultus Intentus Constructum Sons of RA	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:12:00 - [80] CCP - you've actually made me step out from behind the forum-alt mask for once! After the continual hype, the slow trickle of information over the past few months, Chribba's astounding ability to get the top 5 posts of all Dominion related Dev Blog's, you have presented us with this? I honestly can't find it in myself to continue to play EVE, this isn't a financial decision - I can pay for PLEX cards easily. I've dithered and hung on for an extra month or so as my activity drops off but to come out with an ineffectual system in the face of such expectation is shocking. As many have previously stated the system does not provide sufficient ISK to support a community of any size in 0.0, hence neither the goal of incentivising 0.0 nor developing small "hardcore" communities have been achieved. I hereby hand you my mehh-quit (think emoragequit but more apathy, total in fact) in order to guide my PC into the light of new sci-fi MMO's such as the upcoming Star Trek/Wars/Gate, Jumpgate Evolution and Earthrise - all of which I predict will negatively affect your market share in the coming months. Whats your plan for this? One thing I will applaud - your marketting is well targetted, I can't get away from those sodding misleading adverts. Has any player actually ever considered a freighter with an escort? A rifter ending up in a 0.0 cap fight? Goodbye EVE, signed Cyrl Cyrl http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/signature.php/string,Crylnish%20Hlar/tpl,amarr3/signature

sue denim	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:13:00 - [81] 1 hidden belt per level? and you expect alliances to start packing in people for that? :P
Olari Vanderfall	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:15:00 - [82] What is that sucking sound? The ISK sink! I hope with all this isk flowing out of 0.0 there is actually an incentive to conquer the space. I would like the e-peen upgrade module please. What are the incentives anyway?
iP0D	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:16:00 - [83] Originally by: Vivian Azure I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable. Hehe, that should be fun then when you and your buddies are the only target around in an area and the cloaking griefing begins :-)
Tamahra Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:16:00 - [84] Originally by: Pringlescan I still don't understand why ccp can't figure out why people in 0.0 don't mine. Its not because there isn't ENOUGH of it, its because its not worth the isk/hour compared to ratting. How do you expect people to fight wars of conquest when winning would be more expensive then losing? This Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. StevieSG
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:16:00 - [85] This is pathetic and I think I speak for the entirety of 0.0 when I say that we expected better from you. What the hell.
Jordan Musgrat H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:17:00 - [86] This is pretty bad CCP. Don't tell me that's all there is, you've had too long to work on this, and hyped it up too much. All this looks like is 10/10 plexes in every other system, and while I'll love my 50m Corpus Xtype Armor Reps, it's pretty **. There is no incentive here to holding space, and therefore, none to moving to 0.0. Give us an incentive before you tax the ** out of us. ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...
Arra Lith HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:19:00 - [87] Edited by: Arra Lith on 06/11/2009 23:22:45 Edited by: Arra Lith on 06/11/2009 23:20:52 CCP devs are sick or they just dont play EVE and put random numbers ? Here is some calculations for costs for 1 system: 1. New sov costs: - flag : 300m (30x 10m daily) - infrastructure hub : 600m (30x 20m daily) - upgrades strategic : 1200m (30x (1+4+12+25 => 42 m) daily - upgrades industry / military : around 500m propably per path Total: above 2 b - just for sov, and propably more for upgrades (2,5+ b monthly) 2. Now: 1-3 deathstars (cynojammer, jump bridges) : ~360m - deathstars for jump bridges and cyno jammers will stay in new sov too 5+ industry poses : those dont cost anything, as they earn enough to cover fuel and make some profit (especially if placed at some valuable moon). Total: 360m monthly For me thats like 7x higher costs than it is now, and 30x more than cost of mantaining 1 deathstar POS. Deathstars for JBs and for cyno jammers will still be needed (well if someone decide to claim sov...). Industry POSes will stay as well (maybe will get moved to low sec if 0.0 will be too risky and too far away without JB network). With new system there will be maybe 10 upgraded systems per region by very rich alliances and regions, and maybe 1 or 2 in poorer regions (if there is any point at placing sov there - as there will be no way to get those 3 billions back monthly from those upgrades). I though Dominion was meant to interest more players with 0.0, especially poorer alliances - with those prices only most wealthy ones will play with sov. Overall seems nice idea, but with those prices noone will use it. With claiming 15 systems alliance will spend isk equal to 1 titan or 20+ dreads. Maybe thats no big costs for rich alliances - but what is better: paying 3b (per system) to earn slightly more, or pay nothing and earn same money as it is now ?
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:20:00 - [88] Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51 I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable. This is the best thing CCP has ever came up with tbh. I'll give you 35m a hour of ratting in a 1.0 true sec system between bounties and loot. That's 57 hours of ratting you have to do in 14 days, or 4 hours of ratting a day. So no you can't. And nothing in this suggests 10 people can rat in one system.
Tamahra Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:22:00 - [89] Originally by: Stretchmeat Crotchquake The first thing you should be asking when you design these upgrades are "are these actually more lucrative than a single level 4 agent?" this Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. StevieSG
Trishtan DeMore Caldari Seraphin Technologies	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:22:00 - [90] Edited by: Trishtan DeMore on 06/11/2009 23:25:21 Want ... stuff ... you ... smoked when you came up with those numbers. better cut them down to 1/4 atm at the very least! Even I do understand your target: The insanely rich alliances in this game. But you slam the door in front of every small alliance. The thing you'd like to do and the numbers you call for it are contradicting. Because this will not attract even more scare off people to go to 0.0.

Vadinho GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:22:00 - [91] its so wonderful that all us nullsec alliances can set aside our differences to come together and tell ccp they dont know **** from shinola when it comes to how their own game is played there just might be hope for peace yet <3
Skiliong	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:22:00 - [92] Tbh i was hoping the sov would take in consideration the number of systems held and not be the same price for all systems. This could allow smaller corps/alliances to enter 0.0 and when they grow (if they do) they would pay more for that Paying 1B/month for 1 system it's easy. Big alliances will still be able to hold large space because the moons will give them the enought isks for that and without needing any extra work on the systems or to improve them. This is NOT what i (and many like me) was expecting! The upgrades but in resume ... THEY SUCK!!!! Hope the values and not final like the dev blog says
Puzie GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:23:00 - [93] Originally by: Crylnish Hlar Goodbye EVE, signed Cyrl Can I have your stuff?
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:23:00 - [94] I see a lot of ppl mentioning some "huge" profits from reactions. Well, profit you make from them now might seem high, but with these changes one of the only ways to actually make some ISK for corporations will be reactions. With a lot of entities not doing them at all atm, just selling raw materials, I guess most of them will have to start doing reactions to enrich profit from those moons. That will increase their fuel bills to a point and they will bother to mine every available moon. With more reactions and components on the market, prices of those will fall, as will profit. So say good bye to that too...
Mr McAlt	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:24:00 - [95] Originally by: EvilweaselFinance Originally by: Mr McAlt but the amount of isk you can make will increase much, much more. What we're telling you is that none of the upgrades are even worth the cost of the upkeep. I'm not sure you read the Dev Blog properly. The 'Upgrades' do not require additional upkeep. The things listed in the white table require upkeep. income improving upgrades (Industry and Military) only require you to pay to install them, not to keep them running: Originally by: CCP The Costs of Resource Upgrades Resource upgrades cost a relatively small amount of ISK (we are looking at a range of 50-500 million ISK) to purchase and require a certain existing appropriate activity level. Originally by: mynnna No. It won't. I didn't see something like "oh yeah and rat bounties were tripled across the board" or "we have introduced super-ores to 0.0", so there's nothing here that increases a player's personal income. Oh yeah, and anomalies (as far as I know) can't spawn officers, another way in which it is inferior to normal belt ratting. Pirate Magnets - add two additional guaranteed anomalies per level to your solar system On average atm a system has about 2-3 anomalies. With this at lvl 5 you have 10 guaranteed. Admittedly, most are not good at all- ratting belts is better, but some anoms have good rats and a chance of a faction spawn at the end (As do they all) Ore Prospecting Array - adds one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level to your solar system This is much safer than mining at a regular belt, plus the ore may be different/better than your current system ore, so it would be very useful. Entrapment - increase the chance significantly of a DED complex being located in the depths of your solar system How can you not understand how this would increase your isk income? Survey Networks - increase the chance significantly of mini-profession sites being located within your solar system Same thing- Radar and Magno sites can be very profitable. Quantum Flux Generator - increase the chance significantly of a wormhole being discovered within your solar system to w-space. Same again... how do these upgrades not increase your income? 0.0 Exploration sites give you more isk/hour than lvl 4 missions, and that's considering the time spent to travel to different systems to find a single site. I would not be surprised if you could make up to 50 mil per hour with good system upgrades, just doing the exploration sites.
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:25:00 - [96] Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51 When I read crap like you're posting here... oh boy. The upgrade is ment to draw tons of money out of the whole system. Players that strive for personal profits are not welcome in 0.0, they can run LvL 4 missions. 0.0 is about groups playing together, so all the money that can be made in a system is ment to fuel the alliance/corps holding the systems. I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable. Hi, what 90 belt system are you playing in? If you spend the hours needed to properly chain belts, and if you don't have any asshats coming and blowing up the chains, you can sustain maybe a half dozen ratters in a very high belt count system (15+). But that's only after several hours worth of work in cleaning out crap spawns--and that's assuming your system even gets decent ones (most 0.0 sucks). To earn 2 billion a month ratting, you need 100 hours (3.3 hours/day) of 20M/hour ratting--and thats if you, personally, are paying the upkeep fee. If you're talking corp taxes, even assuming a 30% PMITA tax rate this turns into 333 hours of 20M/hour ratting. Thats over 10 hours of best-quality ratting per day to pay for ONE system. To pack 11 people into that system is simply not feasible unless you're talking them being scattered through 5 timezones. CCP has the exact WRONG take on 0.0 improvements: rather than improve the overall quality with a modest improvement in quantity, they've said "screw quality" and expect us to make up the difference with quantity...forgetting that doing L4s in empire is VASTLY more cost-effective and worthwhile. Fix anomalies, improve 0.0 mining methods/efficiency, fix profession sites, and MAYBE this system is worth the effort.
CynoNet Two	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:25:00 - [97] GUYS GUYS I think I found a worthwhile upgrade. Quantum Flux Generator - increase the chance significantly of a wormhole being discovered within your solar system to w-space, thus allowing you to return to evacuate high-sec and make far more money.
Arra Lith HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:27:00 - [98] Originally by: ElvenLord I see a lot of ppl mentioning some "huge" profits from reactions. Well, profit you make from them now might seem high, but with these changes one of the only ways to actually make some ISK for corporations will be reactions. With a lot of entities not doing them at all atm, just selling raw materials, I guess most of them will have to start doing reactions to enrich profit from those moons. That will increase their fuel bills to a point and they will bother to mine every available moon. With more reactions and components on the market, prices of those will fall, as will profit. So say good bye to that too... True, but you dont need sovereignity to place POS and do reactions - you can do it even in low sec. And there is no way those upgrades will yield enough isk to cover costs. And if something costs more than gives value... whats the point of installing it, and fighting to defend it ? Much better to build just large fleets and destroy someone else infrastructure (upkeeping it will propably mean target alliance have much smaller fleet and is easy target).
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:28:00 - [99] What happened to the idea of escalating charges per system claimed by each alliance + minimum numbers of systems claimed for each upgrade? --- 34.4:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule
Lynn de'Marco Divine Power. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:29:00 - [100] i hope the system upgrades are going to be epic because those costs are insane. assuming every system was currently held on 5 large towers as per CCPs price reasoning this is still a 4 fold price increase without even taking account that POS will still be needed to hold the jammers, jump bridges and deathstar the FLAG. so i'm expecting ratting/mining to be 4 times as profitable with the upgrades......

EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:29:00 - [101] Originally by: Mr McAlt Pirate Magnets - add two additional guaranteed anomalies per level to your solar system On average atm a system has about 2-3 anomalies. With this at lvl 5 you have 10 guaranteed. Admittedly, most are not good at all- ratting belts is better, but some anoms have good rats and a chance of a faction spawn at the end (As do they all) These are worthless and we actively tell our newbies to never, ever run them. They are never worth the time. Originally by: Mr McAlt Ore Prospecting Array - adds one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level to your solar system This is much safer than mining at a regular belt, plus the ore may be different/better than your current system ore, so it would be very useful. They have little ore and nobody will mine the veldspar to make them despawn. Originally by: Mr McAlt Entrapment - increase the chance significantly of a DED complex being located in the depths of your solar system How can you not understand how this would increase your isk income? This is the one potentially worthwhile one. Originally by: Mr McAlt Survey Networks - increase the chance significantly of mini-profession sites being located within your solar system Same thing- Radar and Magno sites can be very profitable. They have not been for over a year. I already explained why. Originally by: Mr McAlt Quantum Flux Generator - increase the chance significantly of a wormhole being discovered within your solar system to w-space. Same again... how do these upgrades not increase your income? 0.0 Exploration sites give you more isk/hour than lvl 4 missions, and that's considering the time spent to travel to different systems to find a single site. I would not be surprised if you could make up to 50 mil per hour with good system upgrades, just doing the exploration sites. This is only worth it for the additional wormholes to empire.
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:30:00 - [102] Mr McAlt, unless directors start scanning and taking away faction loot from members and make them undock to rat and mine while tax is 100%, nothing goes to corp wallet, and corp wallet is the one paying bills for upgrades and upkeep, not personal ones
Etien Aldragoran DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:30:00 - [103] Anomalies? You mean those pieces of **** that aren't worth anyone's time to run unless there's a chance of escalation to a-type loot? Also, how does CCP plan to address the huge shift in supply as people suddenly get access to high volumes of specific sets of things? If each system is guaranteed to get 10 ABCM grav sites, Zydrine and Megacyte will crash to the point where it will become as valuable as veldspar. Morphite will drop more than it did after the drone regions were introduced.
Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:30:00 - [104] Originally by: Fuujin Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51 When I read crap like you're posting here... oh boy. The upgrade is ment to draw tons of money out of the whole system. Players that strive for personal profits are not welcome in 0.0, they can run LvL 4 missions. 0.0 is about groups playing together, so all the money that can be made in a system is ment to fuel the alliance/corps holding the systems. I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable. Hi, what 90 belt system are you playing in? If you spend the hours needed to properly chain belts, and if you don't have any asshats coming and blowing up the chains, you can sustain maybe a half dozen ratters in a very high belt count system (15+). But that's only after several hours worth of work in cleaning out crap spawns--and that's assuming your system even gets decent ones (most 0.0 sucks). To earn 2 billion a month ratting, you need 100 hours (3.3 hours/day) of 20M/hour ratting--and thats if you, personally, are paying the upkeep fee. If you're talking corp taxes, even assuming a 30% PMITA tax rate this turns into 333 hours of 20M/hour ratting. Thats over 10 hours of best-quality ratting per day to pay for ONE system. To pack 11 people into that system is simply not feasible unless you're talking them being scattered through 5 timezones. CCP has the exact WRONG take on 0.0 improvements: rather than improve the overall quality with a modest improvement in quantity, they've said "screw quality" and expect us to make up the difference with quantity...forgetting that doing L4s in empire is VASTLY more cost-effective and worthwhile. Fix anomalies, improve 0.0 mining methods/efficiency, fix profession sites, and MAYBE this system is worth the effort. If you strive for personal income, then it's your problem. In 0.0 there should be 100% tax and the ally paying for all the assets you need to do the fighting for them. That's how it works for us... it's called communism, and it actually works in EvE. 2 bil a month is nothing, if you divide it between 10 players. That's a laughable 7 Million ISK per day per player.
Buc'sJita alt	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:30:00 - [105] Haha what the **** are you thinking? Any sort of income gain from installing these upgrades will quickly be negated by the price crash that will quickly follow! There's no reason to install them at all!
Tamahra Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:31:00 - [106] Edited by: Tamahra on 06/11/2009 23:32:04 what youre all forgetting though, is that corps can now set a certain amount of isk as a kinda tax for each member, which will be automatically billed. soooo. 2 billion isk per system per month, thats roughly 20 million isk per member per month, if you have 100 members and own one system.......... viewing it from that angle, its not as much of a problem as many are making it Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. StevieSG
Korvin Eeex Gallente Ancestors Of The Half Ninjas	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:32:00 - [107] It is funny how CCP is calling this "Sovereignty is getting a fixin' in EVE Online: Dominion". CCP, read comments and think very hard. These are horrible changes, concept is good but realization is horrid. You should listen people that live in 0.0 (some of us spent almost all EVE time in 0.0). Please CCP, I already stopped playing few months ago but kept my 4 accounts subscribed, don't make me unsubscribe and leave EVE, I love this game and don't make it worse, pls. ================================================== Lag does not exist ... It is all just a matter of perception.
RevrendStyx Pilots Of Honour Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:32:00 - [108] Originally by: Equinox Daedalus Edited by: Equinox Daedalus on 06/11/2009 22:32:22 Well going off these figures, 1 system with sov, infrastructure hub, cyno jammer and jumpbridges will cost over 2 bil / month CVA alone has the most outposts per region, so i'd figure just for outposts alone thats probally 35+ bil isk a month CCP, you can't really be serious. We go from fighting for something we own to paying for something we own, paying ridiclous amounts of isk, atleast from my general point of view. What incentive is it to actually keep our space anymore? you say you want to use CVA as an example, but, you actually seem to want to destroy what we have built. You should of left us disbanded, because your doing a real good job of what most other alliances haven't been able to do. Where is this Mythical isk influx going to come from, to keep providence up and running? We'd be better off moving back to empire. How is 1 or 2 explorions going to INCREASE supstantally the isk generation. Tragic really. "Mythical isk influx" All you guys need to go back to when the sov changes were first announced. Your going to have to WORK for your space. Not just sit around and make monies from moon goo. My alliance does not hold any space but we can make 10's of bills a month off of grinding it out, be it in empire wh's or 0.0. The alliance gets together and says hey we need cash and everyone gets into gear. Maybe its just been so long since you've had to do something for your isk. orrrr maybe you should go back to empire. Deal with the changes or give me your stuffs and quit.
Josh Silver Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:32:00 - [109] Edited by: Josh Silver on 06/11/2009 23:32:07 That's completly awful, obviously noone who designed this mess lives in 0.0 or even plays EVE at all. But it pairs nice with the insane console shooter thing so yeah, enjoy your jobs while you still have them.
Normin Bates	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:35:00 - [110] Originally by: Kalissa The bigger alliances will be crying buckets over those sov changes. Nice! Yea. All the rich & lazy alliances are being thrust out of their comfort zone. Hence the buckets of tears. Gee...they will have to think/work a bit more and not hold multiple regions. Sucks to be a bloated alliance with piles of empty systems right now huh?

Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:36:00 - [111] Originally by: Normin Bates Originally by: Kalissa The bigger alliances will be crying buckets over those sov changes. Nice! Yea. All the rich & lazy alliances are being thrust out of their comfort zone. Hence the buckets of tears. Gee...they will have to think/work a bit more and not hold multiple regions. Sucks to be a bloated alliance with piles of empty systems right now huh? this hurts smaller 0.0 alliances and anyone who wants to try and make inroads into 0.0 much more fyi Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan
Tamahra Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:37:00 - [112] Edited by: Tamahra on 06/11/2009 23:37:31 again, in an attempt to calm everybody down: corps can now automatically bill their members for a set amount of isks per month. 1 system, 100 members = 20 million isk per member per month, to cover the costs. Its NOT SO BAD as you think, especially since CCP can still tweak the costs and the buffs from the various upgrades. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. StevieSG
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:37:00 - [113] Originally by: Vivian Azure Originally by: Fuujin Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51 When I read crap like you're posting here... oh boy. The upgrade is ment to draw tons of money out of the whole system. Players that strive for personal profits are not welcome in 0.0, they can run LvL 4 missions. 0.0 is about groups playing together, so all the money that can be made in a system is ment to fuel the alliance/corps holding the systems. I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable. Hi, what 90 belt system are you playing in? If you spend the hours needed to properly chain belts, and if you don't have any asshats coming and blowing up the chains, you can sustain maybe a half dozen ratters in a very high belt count system (15+). But that's only after several hours worth of work in cleaning out crap spawns--and that's assuming your system even gets decent ones (most 0.0 sucks). To earn 2 billion a month ratting, you need 100 hours (3.3 hours/day) of 20M/hour ratting--and thats if you, personally, are paying the upkeep fee. If you're talking corp taxes, even assuming a 30% PMITA tax rate this turns into 333 hours of 20M/hour ratting. Thats over 10 hours of best-quality ratting per day to pay for ONE system. To pack 11 people into that system is simply not feasible unless you're talking them being scattered through 5 timezones. CCP has the exact WRONG take on 0.0 improvements: rather than improve the overall quality with a modest improvement in quantity, they've said "screw quality" and expect us to make up the difference with quantity...forgetting that doing L4s in empire is VASTLY more cost-effective and worthwhile. Fix anomalies, improve 0.0 mining methods/efficiency, fix profession sites, and MAYBE this system is worth the effort. If you strive for personal income, then it's your problem. In 0.0 there should be 100% tax and the ally paying for all the assets you need to do the fighting for them. That's how it works for us... it's called communism, and it actually works in EvE. 2 bil a month is nothing, if you divide it between 10 players. That's a laughable 7 Million ISK per day per player. AAA Citizen alt spotted.
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:38:00 - [114] Originally by: Vivian Azure If you strive for personal income, then it's your problem. In 0.0 there should be 100% tax and the ally paying for all the assets you need to do the fighting for them. That's how it works for us... it's called communism, and it actually works in EvE. 2 bil a month is nothing, if you divide it between 10 players. That's a laughable 7 Million ISK per day per player. :slowclap: Well played, though I should have seen that coming.
Lynn de'Marco Divine Power. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:38:00 - [115] Originally by: Dramaticus this hurts smaller 0.0 alliances and anyone who wants to try and make inroads into 0.0 much more fyi this^^
Niding Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:38:00 - [116] Well, Providence is the most populated space in 0.0. The wealth generated from neutrals seldomly finds its way to the SOV holders wallets. To ensure it DOES generate wealth for the SOV holders, we have to shut out neutrals and reserve the resources for ourselves. Kinda ironic that CCP used CVA/Providence as a template of "how its done".
Crimson11 Targeted Logistics and Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:42:00 - [117] I think by the responses from almost all types of alliances in size, power, and profession, this is not what we thought we were getting. Fail CCP
RevrendStyx Pilots Of Honour Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:43:00 - [118] Originally by: Niding Well, Providence is the most populated space in 0.0. The wealth generated from neutrals seldomly finds its way to the SOV holders wallets. To ensure it DOES generate wealth for the SOV holders, we have to shut out neutrals and reserve the resources for ourselves. Kinda ironic that CCP used CVA/Providence as a template of "how its done". Please CVA guys stop. Just stop. Adapt or die.
Gerard Deneth Caldari Pavlov Labs GmBH Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:43:00 - [119] I think people are missing one key part from this devpost, and I hope that Chronotis makes a quick post to confirm/deny this: Originally by: CCP Chronotis Resource upgrades cost a relatively small amount of ISK (we are looking at a range of 50-500 million ISK) to purchase and require a certain existing appropriate activity level. Note that he says the THE COST TO UPGRADE not the cost to maintain an upgrade. That means you're looking at a 50-500 mil one-shot cost to upgrade, not to maintain it each month. Note as well that the posted upgrade table at the top of the devblog does NOT include the cost of the other upgrades (asteroids/plexes/etc). Perhaps wishful thinking, but I seriously think that a mistake was made reading this thing.... ---------------------------- The Game's always changing under your feet; don't start moaning when you get a toe caught in the gears.
Tamahra Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:43:00 - [120] Originally by: Niding Well, Providence is the most populated space in 0.0. The wealth generated from neutrals seldomly finds its way to the SOV holders wallets. To ensure it DOES generate wealth for the SOV holders, we have to shut out neutrals and reserve the resources for ourselves. Kinda ironic that CCP used CVA/Providence as a template of "how its done". in the near future you can sign contracts with your local neutrals, which automatically bills them each month for the set amount of isk that both parties have agreed upon Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. StevieSG

evilPHish SyNtHeTiC D.N.A Cold Steel Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:43:00 - [121] At least I now get to say "I told you so" to all the ppl that kept telling me "Dominion is gonna be just fine". Thx for not letting me down CCP. Oh and while you're at it, can we get capture the flag sovereignity for 0.0? And I want Aura yelling "KILLING SPREE". Or one of your accounting guys screaming "Dude, where did our subscribers go???" This patch is a hit below the belt for everyone living in 0.0 or who was planning to move there. A lot of the reasons have already been stated here, 0.0 post-dominion does NOT allow you to go for riches, our NRDS System in Providence, which you so proudly held up as an example of how 0.0 should be is going to be next to impossible to sustain, small entities will NOT have a chance to get into 0.0 because they simply can not afford it, etc... The only thing 0.0 will be after that patch is a big **** for rich and bored alliances. "We are so rich, we self-D a titan every week!" "That's nothing, we have sov in 0.0!" ... --
Speed Freek	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:44:00 - [122] Can CCP please explain how a system can support 10-50 people making isk at the same rate as they would if they did Level 4 Missions in Empire. (And how a corporation can pay for it at 11% tax) The costs need looking into as well - You are only removing the need for 1 Sov holding POS (Possibly 2 for the paranoid Alliances, with poor fuel maintenance). What type of system are you aiming for break-even on, when looking at the old costs vs the new system? Speek Freek
Sentinel Eeex Caldari DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:46:00 - [123] A. Ha. Aha. Ahahahaha. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha. No wonder you wouldn't give any details, you have no ****ing idea what you're doing. Good job CCP
Virtuozzo The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:46:00 - [124] Well, Dominion was going to shake things up. It does Here's a new wallpaper for the expansion
Hemmo Paskiainen Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:47:00 - [125] Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 06/11/2009 23:50:14 Originally by: Speed Freek Can CCP please explain how a system can support 10-50 people making isk at the same rate as they would if they did Level 4 Missions in Empire. Maybe they decide to double the amount of bs in a belt for each military level while they increase the quality of the rats aswell. And maybe if they do this i really hope they dont forget to adjust the loot tables from mission rats (lesser mods, or better no loot and boost mining). Would be fun fighting 9 to 15 battleships in a belt Double the amount of rats in a cosmic would be an good option to boost the cosmic's.
Josh Silver Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:49:00 - [126] Originally by: RevrendStyx Your going to have to WORK for your space. Not just sit around and make monies from moon goo. Originally by: RevrendStyx My alliance does not hold any space Excellent. What's your position at CCP by the way?
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:50:00 - [127] Originally by: evilPHish At least I now get to say "I told you so" to all the ppl that kept telling me "Dominion is gonna be just fine". Thx for not letting me down CCP. Oh and while you're at it, can we get capture the flag sovereignity for 0.0? And I want Aura yelling "KILLING SPREE". Or one of your accounting guys screaming "Dude, where did our subscribers go???" This patch is a hit below the belt for everyone living in 0.0 or who was planning to move there. A lot of the reasons have already been stated here, 0.0 post-dominion does NOT allow you to go for riches, our NRDS System in Providence, which you so proudly held up as an example of how 0.0 should be is going to be next to impossible to sustain, small entities will NOT have a chance to get into 0.0 because they simply can not afford it, etc... The only thing 0.0 will be after that patch is a big **** for rich and bored alliances. "We are so rich, we self-D a titan every week!" "That's nothing, we have sov in 0.0!" ... The system itself is a great improvement over what we have now, the numbers need tweaked and if they are going to insist upgrades effect cosmic anomolies then they need fixed. If they are going to effect mining, then mining needs looked at. Maybe they plan for that as well?
Black Bird1000	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:52:00 - [128] Today is the 1st April, isn't it? ISN'T IT?!
Vadinho GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:52:00 - [129] Edited by: Vadinho on 06/11/2009 23:51:57 Originally by: Virtuozzo Well, Dominion was going to shake things up. It does Here's a new wallpaper for the expansion this is a better wallpaper for the new expansion
Tamahra Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:54:00 - [130] Originally by: Hemmo Paskiainen Double the amount of rats in a cosmic would be an good option to boost the cosmic's. decent idea Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. StevieSG

ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:54:00 - [131] Originally by: Gerard Deneth Note that he says the THE COST TO UPGRADE not the cost to maintain an upgrade. That means you're looking at a 50-500 mil one-shot cost to upgrade, not to maintain it each month. Note as well that the posted upgrade table at the top of the devblog does NOT include the cost of the other upgrades (asteroids/plexes/etc). Perhaps wishful thinking, but I seriously think that a mistake was made reading this thing.... But you do realize that sov and HUBs do cost in maintainance too? You can not upgrade a system without it. Point is, those upgrades are not cost effective, to both corporations and members. Its easier to just spread same ammount of ppl in few unclaimed systems then pay for a sov system. Oh and if you say sov system is safer check again, if you want cyno jammer or a jump bridge it costs more in initial and maintainance costs.
Sentinel Eeex Caldari DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:55:00 - [132] I, too, love treating the game like a job
SamuraiJack Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:55:00 - [133] Originally by: Virtuozzo Well, Dominion was going to shake things up. It does Here's a new wallpaper for the expansion Touche Virt. Next round is yours :P /me waves his scotch bottle. you, you could be anywhere somewhere, so far from here wherever you are, like a fallin' star come back to planet earth, burn out with me =-
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:55:00 - [134] Originally by: Pnuka The system itself is a great improvement over what we have now, the numbers need tweaked and if they are going to insist upgrades effect cosmic anomolies then they need fixed. If they are going to effect mining, then mining needs looked at. Maybe they plan for that as well? The expansion comes out in 3 weeks. No time to make any serious changes. So unless they've been secretly fixing them all this time, mining and anomalies will continue in their current state.
Lynn de'Marco Divine Power. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:56:00 - [135] i can see NPC 0.0 gettign very well populated :)
Johraiken Fenris Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:56:00 - [136] Originally by: Tamahra Originally by: Niding Well, Providence is the most populated space in 0.0. The wealth generated from neutrals seldomly finds its way to the SOV holders wallets. To ensure it DOES generate wealth for the SOV holders, we have to shut out neutrals and reserve the resources for ourselves. Kinda ironic that CCP used CVA/Providence as a template of "how its done". in the near future you can sign contracts with your local neutrals, which automatically bills them each month for the set amount of isk that both parties have agreed upon So for NRDS this means we have to make a contract with everybody NOT red. Although our red list is pretty large, the not-red list is a whole lot longer. I'm sorry, but that is not an option.
RevrendStyx Pilots Of Honour Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:57:00 - [137] Originally by: Josh Silver Originally by: RevrendStyx Your going to have to WORK for your space. Not just sit around and make monies from moon goo. Originally by: RevrendStyx My alliance does not hold any space Excellent. What's your position at CCP by the way? For me to answer this in any fashion you have to clarify why you think I work for ccp.
Kamikazie Amarr AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:58:00 - [138] Quote: Entrapment - increase the chance significantly of a DED complex being located in the depths of your solar system Survey Networks - increase the chance significantly of mini-profession sites being located within your solar system Way to screw over drone lands again. We do not have DED complexes nor do we really have mini profession sites. We don't get archeology sites and the hacking is laughable compared to other regions. Minus these two features were still basically paying for with the cost per day fees. How does CCP plan to balance these new sov mechanics so drone lands don't get bent over the barrel yet again. also food for thought, corps get isk magically for ratting. Drone space we do not, we have to rely on monthly trips to empire to sell alloys and minerals for ISK.
Vadinho GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:59:00 - [139] Originally by: RevrendStyx For me to answer this in any fashion you have to clarify why you think I work for ccp. well you clearly dont know anything about nullsec so he probably put two and two together
gfldex	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:59:00 - [140] Power to the ppl! /me raises fist

Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:01:00 - [141] Originally by: Vadinho Originally by: RevrendStyx For me to answer this in any fashion you have to clarify why you think I work for ccp. well you clearly dont know anything about nullsec so he probably put two and two together Ouch
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:02:00 - [142] Please visit this thread and voice your support if you think agents should be added to the system of upgrades: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1210331 --- 34.4:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule
evilPHish SyNtHeTiC D.N.A Cold Steel Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:03:00 - [143] Originally by: Vadinho Originally by: RevrendStyx For me to answer this in any fashion you have to clarify why you think I work for ccp. well you clearly dont know anything about nullsec so he probably put two and two together This! --
EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:04:00 - [144] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Please visit this thread and voice your support if you think agents should be added to the system of upgrades: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1210331 we're told the problem is the code is to fubar'd to support it.
Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:04:00 - [145] 2 billion ISK a month / 10 players = 3 Triple BS-spawns per day killed by each player... ...that sure is way too expensive
SamuraiJack Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:05:00 - [146] Oh and CCP? Mao Tse Tung said change must come Change must come thru the barrel of a gun Not thru talkin' and not through waitin' And sittin' around just contemplatin' the facts 'Cos we know what they are NP: Alabama 3. =- The Chronicles of SamuraiJack
RevrendStyx Pilots Of Honour Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:05:00 - [147] Originally by: Vadinho Originally by: RevrendStyx For me to answer this in any fashion you have to clarify why you think I work for ccp. well you clearly dont know anything about nullsec so he probably put two and two together An even better goon response. Yes I know nothing of null sec, but you all still suck at eve. We're even. Now back on topic. These changes don't look to bad to me. Not great but not bad. CCP doesn't always seem to think everything though but at the same time they have been creating this game for ~10yrs. Have you? Let them do their jobby job and stfu and deal with what they give you...orrr like I told the cva guys. Go back to empire or quit and give me your stuffs.
Tamahra Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:05:00 - [148] Originally by: EvilweaselFinance Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Please visit this thread and voice your support if you think agents should be added to the system of upgrades: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1210331 we're told the problem is the code is to fubar'd to support it. i support this idea, if its technically possible........ Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. StevieSG
Etien Aldragoran DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:06:00 - [149] Originally by: Kamikazie Quote: Entrapment - increase the chance significantly of a DED complex being located in the depths of your solar system Survey Networks - increase the chance significantly of mini-profession sites being located within your solar system Way to screw over drone lands again. We do not have DED complexes nor do we really have mini profession sites. We don't get archeology sites and the hacking is laughable compared to other regions. Minus these two features were still basically paying for with the cost per day fees. How does CCP plan to balance these new sov mechanics so drone lands don't get bent over the barrel yet again. also food for thought, corps get isk magically for ratting. Drone space we do not, we have to rely on monthly trips to empire to sell alloys and minerals for ISK. That's what you get for ruining morphite prices.
Sidus Sarmiang GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:07:00 - [150] Solution to sov problems: 0.0 alliances need to start griefing the hell out of everyone who lives in empire space until they beg CCP to improve 0.0 enough that we go away. Then we'll see some worthwhile changes.

gambrinous	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:09:00 - [151] You're gonna ʞɔnɟ up 0.0 ccp OK, it seems none of you play the game you make, but wait, you have a csm. Did you run this by them? Were they down with it? I thought it was their mission to stop you doing stupid ʇıɥs like this
Sellmewarez	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:09:00 - [152] ............................................________ ....................................,.-æö...................``~., .............................,.-ö...................................ô-., .........................,/...............................................ö:, .....................,?......................................................, .................../...........................................................,} ................./......................................................,:`^`..} .............../...................................................,:ö........./ ..............?.....__.........................................:`.........../ ............./__.(.....ô~-,_..............................,:`........../ .........../(_....ö~,_........ô~,_....................,:`........_/ ..........{.._$;_......ö=,_.......ô-,_.......,.-~-,},.~ö;/....} ...........((.....~_.......ö=-._......ô;,,./`..../ö............../ ...,,,___.`~,......ô~.,....................`.....}............../ ............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-ö ............/.`~,......`-...................................../ .............`~.-,.....................................\|,./.....,__ ,,_..........}.>-._...................................\|..............`=~-, .....`=~-,__......`,................................. ...................`=~-,,.,............................... ................................`:,,...........................`..............__ .....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==`` ........................................_..........._,-%.......` ..................................., That is it? Terrible. If anything it gives people more incentive to go back to empire to make ISK.
Vadinho GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:10:00 - [153] Originally by: RevrendStyx Originally by: Vadinho Originally by: RevrendStyx For me to answer this in any fashion you have to clarify why you think I work for ccp. well you clearly dont know anything about nullsec so he probably put two and two together An even better goon response. Yes I know nothing of null sec, but you all still suck at eve. We're even. Now back on topic. These changes don't look to bad to me. Not great but not bad. CCP doesn't always seem to think everything though but at the same time they have been creating this game for ~10yrs. Have you? Let them do their jobby job and stfu and deal with what they give you...orrr like I told the cva guys. Go back to empire or quit and give me your stuffs. LEAVE CCP ALOOOOOOONNNNEE
L'Artest	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:10:00 - [154] Well, guess we'll just hold sov in r64 and station systems then. No one else is going to want any other systems beside those.
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:11:00 - [155] Actually i do enjoy the tears here :D Karma is a ***** (and thats after screwed up capitals "rebalance" Seleene tries to push into dominion).
Alice Celadon	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:11:00 - [156] The REAL problem hasn't been mentioned yet, and it's a simple economic one. We don't sell our finished goods to NPCs in this game...they all go to other players. That means there is a mostly static pool of available ISK in the game which facilitates transactions. CCP just created a monumental ISK sink. Buckets of ISK are about to disappear every 14 days. What mechanic has been put in place to increase the influx of ISK? None. Let me repeat this slowly, because I don't think people get this yet. Moon goo doesn't make ISK. Mining doesn't make ISK. T3 production doesn't make ISK. Bounties, mission rewards, and tags (sleeper belongings, etc.) are the ONLY things that make ISK, and these haven't been buffed in the slightest...but the availability of ISK in general is about to take a massive hit. ... This means one of 3 things. 1. Massive isk generation mechanism CCP hasn't revealed yet. 2. 0.0 gets really abandoned, really quickly. 3. The market goes batpoo insane. As Trit falls off a freaking cliff in comparison to ISK value, BS manufacture/insurance/self-destruct becomes the de-facto method for making ISK. Seriously CCP...don't you morons have an economist working for you? Walk down the freakin hall and ask him about this.
Yosser Hughes GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:11:00 - [157] -Pirate Magnets won't be installed as anomalies aren't run due to lower bounties, no faction/officer spawns and generally take much more effort than belt rating. -Ore Prospecting Array will flood the market with high end minerals and make them worthless, and people will go back to belt ratting/mission running. -Entrapment will crash the price of deadspace gear and people will go back to belt ratting/mission running. -Survey Networks: profession sites aren't worth the effort now, even less so after the inevitable price crash. -Quantum Flux Generator: There's marginal profit in killing sleepers now, guess what this will do (hint: read above) I hope you guys at CCP didn't spend too time thinking about this, because... damn.....
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:14:00 - [158] Originally by: L'Artest Well, guess we'll just hold sov in r64 and station systems then. No one else is going to want any other systems beside those. Why do you need sov to mine moons? Also with the crappiness of upgrades why do you need sov in station systems? Station ownership is decoupled from sov as far as I know.
Hu Evur	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:14:00 - [159] Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang Solution to sov problems: 0.0 alliances need to start griefing the hell out of everyone who lives in empire space until they beg CCP to improve 0.0 enough that we go away. Then we'll see some worthwhile changes. Your solution is as well thought out as CCP's new sov system. Good luck on your stupid jihad against empire dwellers. You will only drive them out of the game, eliminate your own targets, and thus kill the game. But, that is your whole objective isn't it.
Evelgrivion Ignatium. Aggressive Dissonance	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:16:00 - [160] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 07/11/2009 00:17:14 The basis for the daily cost is nothing short of insane. To start with, the raw fuel costs of a large tower are half of what you are estimating; it costs at most 2 million ISK a day to run a large tower. Almost every alliance cuts this down even more by using as many faction large towers as they can, and that number is further reduced by actually having sovereignty. At most, a system should cost us 10 million ISK per day, if not less. At this rate, the rule of thumb is going to be "Don't take up space that you can't 'work like a prostitute'." I'm pretty sure this is opposite of the intended effect, and a second look at those numbers would not go amiss.

Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:21:00 - [161] And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining.
Virtuozzo The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:24:00 - [162] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 07/11/2009 00:17:14 The basis for the daily cost is nothing short of insane. To start with, the raw fuel costs of a large tower are half of what you are estimating; it costs at most 2 million ISK a day to run a large tower. Almost every alliance cuts this down even more by using as many faction large towers as they can, and that number is further reduced by actually having sovereignty. At most, a system should cost us 10 million ISK per day, if not less. At this rate, the rule of thumb is going to be "Don't take up space that you can't 'work like a prostitute'." I'm pretty sure this is opposite of the intended effect, and a second look at those numbers would not go amiss. Evel, think of it. What is the chance of that happening in 3 weeks time which includes code freeze
Sidus Sarmiang GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:25:00 - [163] Originally by: Hu Evur Your solution is as well thought out as CCP's new sov system. Good luck on your stupid jihad against empire dwellers. You will only drive them out of the game, eliminate your own targets, and thus kill the game. But, that is your whole objective isn't it. So really, my plan is a pretty good one.
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:26:00 - [164] Edited by: teji on 07/11/2009 00:27:17 Originally by: Vivian Azure And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining. And again, a NPC station system costs 0 ISK and can make more isk with 0 upgrades. Each player has to pay 0 million isk to pay this bill.
PaulTheWise	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:29:00 - [165] Originally by: Vivian Azure And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining. I'd like to treat Eve as a game, not as a job, thank you very much. That is exactly the reason why I'm stopping doing reactions, it 'forces' me to be online every (other) day to empty silos (both a simple and a complex reaction on 1 large tower sounded fun at first :P ) and make regular (but required) trips to Jita. Forcing me to fork up 7mil a day will have the same effect: me not wanting to play the game any more. The towers skewer the numbers a bit as I can't really say there are days I don't even make 7mil, but back when I was still ratting and missioning (at my own pace :) ), very much so.
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:30:00 - [166] Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 07/11/2009 00:31:57 Originally by: Vivian Azure And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining. Vivian has a point. 2 billion divided amongst 10 players for a period of 30 days and each day is around 6.5-7million a day. Wow, that's like shooting...what, 8-10 Battleships in Providence space? (In belts mind you). Its not really that bad. Though the upgrades I agree need to be looked over, but I believe CCP might have forgotten the belt-related ones....unless they have no intention of fixing those. (I hope not btw...) Further edit: Btw, that's with 10 FREAKING PEOPLE. Imagine around 50 which is about the minimum any alliance is going to need to take any system in any 0.0 space. A whopping 1.5million a day. OH NO, 2 RATS!!!!!!!!!! sheesh, work together for once, I think that's what 0.0 lacks right now, wayyyy too much solo within corps/alliances, not enough working together. --Isaac Signature is now under construction: check back in a couple weeks. AMAAR VICTOR! "You just can't fix stupid"
Pointfive	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:30:00 - [167] How does this give any incentive at all to spend my time making money in 0.0 over running level 4s? Im going to have less space with more competition which will drive down isk earned. This actually makes level 4's more attractive which is the worst thing you can do for null sec.
gambrinous	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:32:00 - [168] Originally by: Vivian Azure And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining. hmm, 7mill x 30 days = 210mill for not much more you can buy a plex. so your assumption is that everyone is rich enough to pay their subscription via plex. which leads to: everyone is rich enough to pay for two plexes a month, or post patch players will have to pay $15 per month to hold sov given that people buy plex to sell for isk, I think you might be off the mark a bit.
Yosser Hughes GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:33:00 - [169] Originally by: Vivian Azure And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining. And you still need just as many starbases, which cost more now due to a drop in the sovereignty fuel bonus
Valrandir Elemental Mercury Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:34:00 - [170] Excellent™ This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware.

Tiger Kior Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:36:00 - [171] CCP is out to lunch with these costs, not only does this absolutely make 0.0 cost prohibitive it means any alliance, especially smaller ones, need to spend vast amounts of time farming isk to maintain the space they want to own. How are smaller alliances expected to break into 0.0 with these costs, not to mention if said smaller alliances need to actually engage in a sov war with tangible combat to gain space then the costs become exceedingly cost prohibitive. The smaller entity needs to fund a war and obscene sov costs, which I hate to say it is just not going to happen with how these costs are structured.
Dante Edmundo	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:36:00 - [172] Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 07/11/2009 00:36:41 Yikes. Talk about a lot of unhappy players. CCP are you listening? You guys better have a big meeting to discuss your 0.0 Dominion infrastructure plans because your player base doesn't seem to be happy - at all.
Stormdeath modro	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:40:00 - [173] These numbers are unsustainable. You think it looks okay because the number of people and splitting the cost between them. You don't run or pay for an alliance. It is about ability to tax if the alliances still wants to hold station systems and other important systems thru holding corps. Also you will no longer see the jump bridge networks increasing your defense and roam ability at 3.5b a month for each. The thing I have been really worried about during this process of sov revamping has been the idea of increasing the alliance/corporation expenses while not increasing any of the static income(non active sources of income), infact with the changes to moon minerals you are decreasing the alliance static incomes with a slight increase to the corp. I know CCP does not like these income sources but without them you get into taxing the crap out of your member base. There is not a single person in the game that is happy with 20-25h% tax rate or 20m a month in fees, for a 50 man corp to hold one system with only basic upgrades. Move over empire people it's about to get alot more crowded.
Hu Evur	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:42:00 - [174] Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang So really, my plan is a pretty good one. Yeah, it depends if you want this: "0.0 alliances need to start griefing the hell out of everyone who lives in empire space until they beg CCP to improve 0.0 enough that we go away. Then we'll see some worthwhile changes."; or, to simply grief people out of the game and kill it. Either way I think if CCP doesn't fix the present proposal we probably won't get to discover which objective motivates your suggested fix to what appears to be a flawed new sov proposal. I say appears to be because we still do not have the full proposal, which will come "soon ~" (note use of tilda). Anyway, as a couple others have already stated, did not see anything in this blog about sliding scale costs as number of systems claimed increases. Unless we missed it, in which case thanks in advance to someone who can point it out.
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:43:00 - [175] perhaps the economic/military upgrades need to be a little more potent than they are. That's the way to adress any balance rather than cost: a high cost/high reward balance will end the AFK empires while a low cost/ low reward balance will simply be like today with afk empires held for epeen and moons except tech and neo will replace dys and prom (on that note, please fix the technetium bottleneck ccp )
Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:44:00 - [176] Originally by: Stormdeath These numbers are unsustainable. You think it looks okay because the number of people and splitting the cost between them. You don't run or pay for an alliance. It is about ability to tax if the alliances still wants to hold station systems and other important systems thru holding corps. Also you will no longer see the jump bridge networks increasing your defense and roam ability at 3.5b a month for each. The thing I have been really worried about during this process of sov revamping has been the idea of increasing the alliance/corporation expenses while not increasing any of the static income(non active sources of income), infact with the changes to moon minerals you are decreasing the alliance static incomes with a slight increase to the corp. I know CCP does not like these income sources but without them you get into taxing the crap out of your member base. There is not a single person in the game that is happy with 20-25h% tax rate or 20m a month in fees, for a 50 man corp to hold one system with only basic upgrades. Move over empire people it's about to get alot more crowded. 7 million ISK per player each day, if 10 players contribute for a single system... yeah... you really need to tax them with 25%... LOL
Evelgrivion Ignatium. Aggressive Dissonance	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:45:00 - [177] Extra quantities of crap material will never convince people to go there when they would not before. Upgrades need to improve the quality of raw materials and encounter sites, not just the quantity of them.
Soleil Fournier AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:46:00 - [178] Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 07/11/2009 00:55:15 Sorry, but those "upgrades" are worthless and not what any of us were expecting them to be. We need upgrades that: Increase the number of belts in a system. Increase the security rating of the system to spawn better rats or ores. Increase the number of rats that spawn in a system. Decrease the spawn timer of rats, from 20 minutes to 10 minutes. More upgrades like these ^ If you want each system to support 50 people like ya'll have been touting, you need significant changes to this proposed system, because those changes listed do nothing to help support more players! Also: It's a bad mechanic to do a straight cost per day per system model. You should have done a scaling system. IE the first system costs you 1 million per day. You claim a second system....now both of your systems cost you 2 million per day, claim a 3rd and all cost 3 million per day, and so forth. This means small alliances can break into 00 starting out, and also means the large alliances can get what they need but get hammered if they try to gain 3 regions of space.
iP0D	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:47:00 - [179] Originally by: Isaac Starstriker Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 07/11/2009 00:31:57 Originally by: Vivian Azure And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining. Vivian has a point. 2 billion divided amongst 10 players for a period of 30 days and each day is around 6.5-7million a day. Wow, that's like shooting...what, 8-10 Battleships in Providence space? (In belts mind you). Its not really that bad. Though the upgrades I agree need to be looked over, but I believe CCP might have forgotten the belt-related ones....unless they have no intention of fixing those. (I hope not btw...) Further edit: Btw, that's with 10 FREAKING PEOPLE. Imagine around 50 which is about the minimum any alliance is going to need to take any system in any 0.0 space. A whopping 1.5million a day. OH NO, 2 RATS!!!!!!!!!! sheesh, work together for once, I think that's what 0.0 lacks right now, wayyyy too much solo within corps/alliances, not enough working together. --Isaac His point fails once you introduce some simple human behaviour. Everyone out in 0.0 has been bottling up steam and a lot of patience towards Dominion to bring back something other then structures to shoot . So, while instead of less we get more structure types to shoot at and deal with, with more timers even if admittedly at a somewhat faster pace, there is still virtually no incentive for people who are not already out there to actually go there. And those who do, are the very thing those hordes of frustrated and disappointed l33t pvp'ers have been waiting for, and will descend on to gank and grief 23/7 to hell and beyond. Try keeping that bridge up when at any time a day there are cloaking force recons around just waiting to portal in bomber fleets because there is someone living in space again Anyway, all that aside. The ones CCP wants to move out here are the ones who define everything by level 4 mission income and risk. Do the math from there on. Then add the silly part about exploration, which requires effort, and wastes a ton of time since you still get in each other's way cause you have no way of identifying who is (already) doing what and where. It's hilarious. Subscribers take things to excess, as a rule. Apply that to the basic picture. Even without doing the math that becomes a pretty ugly picture. On the bright side, since the consequences will only become visible over several months time, by the time things get really funny we will have new shiny to get dazzled by. I'm quite sure there will be drama and soap in the months to come in the large powerblocks, but once they learn to specialise in roles and functions we will once more go back to an equilibrium. Control is not a problem, and rebellion an incredibly easily bypassed risk. But the ones who currently have the most ISK in stock, will have to be incredibly stupid to loose their leadership positions on the map.
Josh Silver Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:49:00 - [180] Originally by: Vivian Azure 2 billion ISK a month / 10 players = 3 Triple BS-spawns per day killed by each player... ...that sure is way too expensive Decent triple-BS spawns take a long, long time to groom. Like multiple hours while you are at the mercy of any simpleton to break your chains and ruin your "work" We had faint hopes the patch would make excactly that easier, so 0.0 beltratting would come close to hisec mission running, ISK wise. We wanted the rat upgrade to give BETTER or FASTER spawns or MORE BELTS or anything useful really, anything... And we got +x crappy Anomalies which is a kick in the balls with steel-capped Doc Martens.

Jordan Musgrat H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:49:00 - [181] It should be mentioned that it's not really even the costs that are a problem here, we could care less how much you charge us to hold systems. What the problem is, is that you haven't given us a way to support "50-100" people making isk in a single system. Face it, ratting is the best way to make isk, unless you boost cosmic sites and such. A system with 15 belts will only ever be able to support 3 people, max. Maybe another 3 will run the 10/10 for an hour or 2. We thought you would give us more belts and such, that would be really great you know. Else, you could just fix all the mini professions. But as it stands, either you need to release more information, or you're going to break the 0.0 economy only to have to fix it later. Just get it right the first time please. ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...
Sidus Sarmiang GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:51:00 - [182] Originally by: Hu Evur Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang So really, my plan is a pretty good one. Yeah, it depends if you want this: "0.0 alliances need to start griefing the hell out of everyone who lives in empire space until they beg CCP to improve 0.0 enough that we go away. Then we'll see some worthwhile changes."; or, to simply grief people out of the game and kill it. To be honest, I'm okay with either. If CCP fixes the game and I get to go back to 0.0 and have fun then that's cool. If the game burns to the ground and everyone leaves, well, that'll be fun for me too. Either way I win.
Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:52:00 - [183] Edited by: Vivian Azure on 07/11/2009 00:53:25 Originally by: Soleil Fournier Sorry, but those "upgrades" are worthless and not what any of us were expecting them to be. We need upgrades that: Increase the number of belts in a system. Increase the security rating of the system to spawn better rats or ores. Increase the number of rats that spawn in a system. Decrease the spawn timer of rats, from 20 minutes to 10 minutes. More upgrades like these ^ If you want each system to support 50 people like ya'll have been touting, you need significant changes to this proposed system, because those changes listed do nothing to help support more players! Sounds like: "Give me 100 Million ISK a day for free please." Originally by: Josh Silver Originally by: Vivian Azure 2 billion ISK a month / 10 players = 3 Triple BS-spawns per day killed by each player... ...that sure is way too expensive Decent triple-BS spawns take a long, long time to groom. Like multiple hours while you are at the mercy of any simpleton to break your chains and ruin your "work" We had faint hopes the patch would make excactly that easier, so 0.0 beltratting would come close to hisec mission running, ISK wise. We wanted the rat upgrade to give BETTER or FASTER spawns or MORE BELTS or anything useful really, anything... And we got +x crappy Anomalies which is a kick in the balls with steel-capped Doc Martens. Lol... three crappy BS-spawns, which you can find in every third belt in 0.0 is totally enough allready. But yeah, keep whining, that you as a member has to contribute to pay the alliance-bills.
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:53:00 - [184] Originally by: Hu Evur Your solution is as well thought out as CCP's new sov system. Good luck on your stupid jihad against empire dwellers. You will only drive them out of the game, eliminate your own targets, and thus kill the game. But, that is your whole objective isn't it. Maybe that is the intended game mechanics, make way for Dust or something Originally by: Vivian Azure And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining. And that would be under assumption every player goes into belts every day for few hours, to make at least 14mil ISK daily so he can pay half to corp so corp can pay for sov. I dont think that leaves much space for some ppl to get online, get in gang and enjoy an hour or two they have of free time for pure pew pew fun or just chat. And what about ppl that are already doing a lot of work for corporations, do they need to pay too? Does eve need to become work? And if you get attacked, who is gonna make ISK for bills when you have to defend that sov?
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:55:00 - [185] i am sure fully upgraded system - about 2 bil isk a month - will support much more than 10 people. Then Monthly cost per month will be laughable. I see multi time zone corp/alliances benefit from it. They can operate in much lesser space with greater efficieny. Also moons will not become worthless , and more minerals will be profitable to mine that will help paying bills for sure. Also i dont like upgrade that spawn wormholes. It will cripple game for wormhole corporations.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:57:00 - [186] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 i am sure fully upgraded system - about 2 bil isk a month - will support much more than 10 people. How? ---------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
Lynn de'Marco Divine Power. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:57:00 - [187] Edited by: Lynn de''Marco on 07/11/2009 00:59:05 Originally by: ElvenLord And that would be under assumption every player goes into belts every day for few hours, to make at least 14mil ISK daily so he can pay half to corp so corp can pay for sov. I dont think that leaves much space for some ppl to get online, get in gang and enjoy an hour or two they have of free time for pure pew pew fun or just chat. And what about ppl that are already doing a lot of work for corporations, do they need to pay too? Does eve need to become work? And if you get attacked, who is gonna make ISK for bills when you have to defend that sov? +1, also some peopel can't play every day..... so someone who goes away for a weekend shoudl come back and have to pay 21mil to their corp?
L'Artest	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:58:00 - [188] Edited by: L''Artest on 07/11/2009 00:58:19 Exodus: Empire Edition
Arric Rohr Gallente Intergalactic Science LLC	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:59:00 - [189] Seems to me that to serve their purpose they should drop the price for one system to about 50% of that, then scale it so each additional system adds 5% or so. (Totally random numbers.) So it's easy to get started, but getting really big costs you. Also, from reading the Dev blogs, I got the impression that upgrading your system would increase the quality not the quantity. However, aren't belts and rats as they exist now going to go away in the fairly near future? Maybe at that point these upgrades will mean something. AR Where do I get one of those cool signatures?
Hugh Hefner Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:59:00 - [190] Originally by: Kalissa The bigger alliances will be crying buckets over those sov changes. Nice! The bigger? How damn clueless can a person be, this will drive most smaller alliances out of 0.0. Dont worry though, CCP is even more clueless = 20 million a day for sov = like 5 large pos. A. Those 5 large pos payed for themselves in most cases = REACTION. So this new cost is excactly that, a new cost, a new burden. B. Fuel-costs aint solely negative, you see you buy fuel from other gamers mostly, some of them even in your own alliance, it provides income. This new cost is a pure isk-sink. Now I doubt it will cause deflation on the market cause only the most clueless will bother paying those bills. Bigger alliances can afford to upkeep a smaller jumpbridge-network and some key systems for super-cap-building no doubt, but most systems will have no sov, thus no owner, thus no real reason to populate a area beyond roaming for reds(for non-blues if you aint NRDS ) or solo-rat = less carebears for pvpers to shoot, less pvpers for carebears to sell ships to and less fun overall in 0.0. The few smaller alliances that invest in some system will soon have it spoiled by random larger alliance frustrated from lack of targets and thus reduced to griefing them instead for some short-lived fun. Seriously, I can see nothing good with this whole damn Dominion-idea, if the costs was a tenth of what you describe, then perhaps, but this...

Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:00:00 - [191] Edited by: Vivian Azure on 07/11/2009 01:02:12 Originally by: ElvenLord Originally by: Hu Evur Your solution is as well thought out as CCP's new sov system. Good luck on your stupid jihad against empire dwellers. You will only drive them out of the game, eliminate your own targets, and thus kill the game. But, that is your whole objective isn't it. Maybe that is the intended game mechanics, make way for Dust or something Originally by: Vivian Azure And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining. And that would be under assumption every player goes into belts every day for few hours, to make at least 14mil ISK daily so he can pay half to corp so corp can pay for sov. I dont think that leaves much space for some ppl to get online, get in gang and enjoy an hour or two they have of free time for pure pew pew fun or just chat. And what about ppl that are already doing a lot of work for corporations, do they need to pay too? Does eve need to become work? And if you get attacked, who is gonna make ISK for bills when you have to defend that sov? A Battlecruiser-spawn is some 600k ISK allready, so 7 Million ISK takes some 30 minutes of ratting in an utterly crap 0.0-system... not hours. So excuse me, but if you as a member can't contribute 30 minutes a day to pay the bills of your alliance, then you're a lazy bum and should get kicked out of your alliance 0.0 space. --- I can see why all of the big alliance-players are whining so much... they have to do some 30 minutes of work per day contributing to their alliance and the alliance won't be able to build tons of Titans, Moms and Dreads anymore for their lazy members... oh the joy
Zastrow GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:01:00 - [192] Did anyone listen to me when we were arguing about this in iceland? I had 4 words for you in regards to 0.0: IS IT WORTH IT? Right now it sure isn't looking like it. Stay in highsec running L4s everyone, there's still no incentive to life in 0.0. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Sidus Sarmiang GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:02:00 - [193] Edited by: Sidus Sarmiang on 07/11/2009 01:03:56 Originally by: Vivian Azure A Battlecruiser-spawn is some 600k ISK allready, so 7 Million ISK takes some 30 minutes of ratting in an utterly crap 0.0-system... not hours. So excuse me, but if you as a member can't contribute 30 minutes a day to pay the bills of your alliance, then you're a lazy bum and should get kicked out of your alliance 0.0 space. I love things that make games more like jobs. 30 minutes a day, 365 days in a year. That's about 183 hours a year per person to support sov. Even working a minimum wage job, that's over a thousand dollars. I think I found a better use of that time.
Sellmewarez	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:02:00 - [194] And really why do i want to spend more time ratting and jockeying to find a decent place to make isk when its already as boring as hell? If im in 0.0 the rewards should be a VAST increase over anywhere else so i can spend less time choring isk, which is a nice way to burn out, and have more time to pew pew because really thats whats 0.0 is all about right? With the proposed updates this only makes making isk for the average 0.0 pilot more difficult and more frustrating than it currently is. You know all those vast quantities of deserted systems with like 4 asteroid belts and low sec status? They are still going to be useless because no one would bother trying to 'upgrade' them when its simply not worth their time.
Dominus Insania Conflagration. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:04:00 - [195] was't this supose to be a pvp game ? with this new patch u gonne turn us all into carebears just so we can pay the freaking bill's sov shoud be held by combat, fighting over it, not by paying bill's and shooting rat's, we have enough of this in RL i forsee that all alliances wil drop in numbers becos evryone will put there alt in an npc corp to farm lvl 4's way to go ccp !!!
Cailais Amarr Diablo Advocatus	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:04:00 - [196] Interesting. I'm going to assume that the plaintive cries from those alliances who 'hold' large numbers of systems means that CCP have probably hit the right formula here. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
IT Yassir	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:05:00 - [197] Originally by: ElvenLord Originally by: Hu Evur Your solution is as well thought out as CCP's new sov system. Good luck on your stupid jihad against empire dwellers. You will only drive them out of the game, eliminate your own targets, and thus kill the game. But, that is your whole objective isn't it. Maybe that is the intended game mechanics, make way for Dust or something Originally by: Vivian Azure And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining. And that would be under assumption every player goes into belts every day for few hours, to make at least 14mil ISK daily so he can pay half to corp so corp can pay for sov. I dont think that leaves much space for some ppl to get online, get in gang and enjoy an hour or two they have of free time for pure pew pew fun or just chat. And what about ppl that are already doing a lot of work for corporations, do they need to pay too? Does eve need to become work? And if you get attacked, who is gonna make ISK for bills when you have to defend that sov? Nobody will attack anymore - why would you attack anything when if u attack something nvm will be harder to replace caps then you have another 10 bil to pay in the new sov you gather - with dominion people will go in defensive mode.Corps will have to increase tax drastically Alliance in stead of payng corps and sharing the isk they will be forced to tax corps ho will be forced to tax members. So all this thing dose is make the average member upset.Now why go into a 0.0 corp anymore so they can tax ya 100 mil per month ? I recommend cpp to drop those prices to this: Base cost : 5 mil per day + hub say 7 Full upgraded system to be like 25. And will be bit more manegebale. Upgrades should be also : Roid size increase rather then extra belt by say 20% per level so rather then having a extra belt u got same belts (easier to code) and more profit so u can actualy support more ppl. Rats bounty increase by say 7.5% per level Blow the worm spanner device with a faction spawn er device. Then ppl will be happy, Also ccp said something some upgrades are tied with the tier upgrades of a station.Or was it me.
Virtuozzo The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:06:00 - [198] Originally by: Zastrow Did anyone listen to me when we were arguing about this in iceland? I had 4 words for you in regards to 0.0: IS IT WORTH IT? Right now it sure isn't looking like it. Stay in highsec running L4s everyone, there's still no incentive to life in 0.0. Never thought I'd post this in a feedback thread. What he said ^^ Just keep in mind the "is it worth it" signifies more then "isk", since value is dependant on volume, and effort has become one of the biggest stumbling blocks to get people out of empire, maybe even a bigger one than the eternal holy level 4 pay rate grail.
Caliph Scorpionsting Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:08:00 - [199] I read the blog, but I didn't see a fix for anything? Where is the sov fix guys? Surely something that breaks sovereignty wouldn't be called a fix, right? Seriously though, if this goes live then there is no reason to hold space. Doing missions in a newbie corp with the 11% tax will be the only smart way to make money. I would like to see how you came up with all these figures. CCP: Are you honestly this out of touch with the state of a game that you made yourself?
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:09:00 - [200] Originally by: Josh Silver Originally by: Vivian Azure 2 billion ISK a month / 10 players = 3 Triple BS-spawns per day killed by each player... ...that sure is way too expensive Decent triple-BS spawns take a long, long time to groom. Like multiple hours while you are at the mercy of any simpleton to break your chains and ruin your "work" We had faint hopes the patch would make excactly that easier, so 0.0 beltratting would come close to hisec mission running, ISK wise. We wanted the rat upgrade to give BETTER or FASTER spawns or MORE BELTS or anything useful really, anything... And we got +x crappy Anomalies which is a kick in the balls with steel-capped Doc Martens. Just to clarify his point: You need to shoot 3 Battleships. Just 3. Per day. 3 = day. That's really not hard considering I was shooting 10 per half hour in Providence. (Guessing here as its been a while....) --Isaac Signature is now under construction: check back in a couple weeks. AMAAR VICTOR! "You just can't fix stupid"

Stevens Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:09:00 - [201] Originally by: Vivian Azure A Battlecruiser-spawn is some 600k ISK allready, so 7 Million ISK takes some 30 minutes of ratting in an utterly crap 0.0-system... not hours. So excuse me, but if you as a member can't contribute 30 minutes a day to pay the bills of your alliance, then you're a lazy bum and should get kicked out of your alliance 0.0 space. --- I can see why all of the big alliance-players are whining so much... they have to do some 30 minutes of work per day contributing to their alliance and the alliance won't be able to build tons of Titans, Moms and Dreads anymore for their lazy members... oh the joy Or go run missions in high sec with 0 risk max reward and not claim 0.0. As many have pointed out 0.0 space is worth nothing now. Things people fought over before we r64s but the cost of holding and defending an r64 (2bil in just bills not anything) will completely negate any money you make.
Hrin Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:09:00 - [202] Why even have a CSM?
Hunter Exodus	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:11:00 - [203] CCP, start doing some real total simulation numbers, where most of all the time goes to everyone holding space moon mines and rats all days, meaning less pvp, meaning less demand on moon products and less ships blown up, do those numbers b4 u post stuff next time. THINK dudes, u seriously are out of WHACK with at least half your costs proposed with your thinking here. With these levels of new ISK sinks, there is no incentive to not live in empire doing missions and gank people in 0.0, versus doing the mundane tasks that is a real life job of 0.0 space holding. Its a job of clearing space out for hostiles and then you just added the work load to the 10 fold need of what it is today, to mine all and every moon and ship that to empire after reacting that stuff. Beside doing all the work to run a 0.0 alliance. Now, why am I paying for tons of accounts and sitting here all day again? What is exactly the 0.0 incentive for me with your proposed changes?
Lynn de'Marco Divine Power. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:12:00 - [204] /me getting bored of people in non 0.0 corps quoting the 7mil per member per day thing.
c0rn1 Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:13:00 - [205] lol. that's really funny, isn't it? I mean it's common that sov holding alliances take a fee of renters to use their space BUT if every a sov holding alliance would've put up those numbers to renters they'd call it a rip-off and no renter ever would go to 0.0. This is just hilarious, CCP. Remove the fees you suggested and make it a smart system. For example: you aim at 50-100 people per system (That's what you said is the amount of people 1 system can take). so take the alliance number of pilots into account as well. something like that for 1 system: 500 bn * [number of current systems] / alliance members - 5bn. Then you get a nice distribution and actually attract even small alliances (300+ ppl) to take space in 0.0. Your aim would be a distribution of 0.01 system/member. if that requirement is met, the alliance fulfils the requirement of 0.0 space without any fee since they have a 100% efficiency. So a 300 people alliance can take 3 systems in 0.0 at 0 cost. Each additional system costs them extra cash and the more they take, the exponential more they have to pay: Let's see the different relevances with different alliance numbers: 300 Members 1 - 3 Systems is free of charge and for each additional system: 1,6666 bn ISK Distributed to all systems holding: 1-3 Systems: 0 ISK / system 4 Systems: 416 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 1.66 bn ISK 5 Systems: 666 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 3.32 bn ISK 6 Systems: 833 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 5 bn ISK 10 Systems: 1.16 bn / system \| Monthly Bill = 11.6 bn ISK 1500 Members: 1-15 Systems free of charge and for each additional system: 333 mil 1-15 Systems: 0 ISK / system 16 Systems: 20.8 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 333 mil ISK 20 Systems: 83.3 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 1.665 bn ISK 30 Systems: 166 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 5.995 bn ISK 50 Systems: 233 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 11.667 bn ISK 5000 Members: 1-50 Systems free of charge and for each additional System: 100 mil 51 Systems: 2 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 100 mill 60 Systems: 16 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 1 bn ISK 80 Systems: 37.5 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 3bn ISK 100 Systems: 50 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 5bn ISK 150 Systems: 66 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 10bn ISK 200 Systems: 75 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 15bn ISK Now you can get an additional factor into this: The factor would be the actual presence in the systems: Take as a base the system local. Count the undocked or moving pilots in that system of that explicit alliance over the day and calculate the average attendence to the system. Let's take 100 as base number of pilots which should be active in that system over a day since it would mean a maximum usage as well. do we only have a max count of 50 pilots over the day in that system it would mean only a 50% usage of it. calculatint the usage through all system will bring something between 30-70% overall usage. To bring this factor into our equation: (500 bn * [number of current systems] / alliance members - 5bn) / usage (50% = 0.5). Voilß, we have what we want. A progressing fee for our systems which actually attracts smaller entities into 0.0 as well since they do have nothing to pay for a certain amount of systems, but puts into progression the actual usage of systems. And if you tell me know larger alliances will start to make fleets just to visit their systems and have 100% usage. So be it if they don't have anything better to do than roam 2h through 200 systems of their empire. Sooner or later the consolidation of the territory will be the easier way to achieve a lower fee. cheers c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x Life's a waste of time ...
pc dude Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:13:00 - [206] What I am most curious about is what method will be used to transition from the curret sov system to the new one. 1. Will all structures in use be given the appropriate upgrades so long as they are a struture usable in a given system by the new sov rules? 2. Will all systems in which sov is currently held freely recieve F.L.A.G.s? 3. When transfering over levels of sov, will the new measurement of sov be used, or the old levels? 4. When will maintainence costs take effect if all systems in which sov are currently held are transfered to the new sov system? 5. What about this system prevents vast swaths of territory being claimed other than the minimal cost? To ask it differently, will there be a cumulative increase as more territory is claimed? If no such penalty is incurred, I see little change coming in the size of space claimed. for comparison let us consider goonswarm (155 sov systems, 3.1 bil cost per period, 6.2bil per month is just over 1 mil isk per member), against all authorities (4.6 bil/month)or the alliance w/ more systems than anyone else, shadow of xxdeathxx ( 7.8 bil/month) this may sound like a lot of isk at first, but before accounting for the isk farmers plugged into these systems, this is not much isk. i know a guy that could pretty easily pull this down in a month of tedious, boring, but lucrative carebearing alone(and lol he's among the more pvp types i know) this is not to say that I have a problem with this necessarily, it just seems contrary to the goal of the new system, so I ask if there is something that we just do not know yet 6. Next question, where will these structures be placed. We know the FLAGs go on the gates, but what of claim units, hubs and associated structures? Which of these structures will have beacons attatched to them? 7. Can the upgrades be attacked seperatly? For example, could I (and my superblob fleet of SUPREAM DOOMINESS) destroy the upgrade permitting cyno jammers disabling the online cynojammer and preventing any others from going down? Or are the upgrades just numbers floating around the infastructure hub? 8. Any chance of getting the benifits from the upgrades individually labled to make it easier to make use of them in concert with others? For example, rather than a new plex spawning with it's name as usual, perhaps it would be labled as (plex name) 2 (occupied), but only viewable as such to members of the alliance and perhaps also blues. 9. Can one intentionally downgrade to save isk? 10. Are there new roles associated with the new sov mechanics so we need not give out directorship just for someone to be able to operate the new spiffy things? (simple roles plz) Well the wife is calling me to dinner. If i have more questions, you shall have to wait until i return later ^.^
IT Yassir	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:14:00 - [207] Originally by: Lynn de'Marco /me getting bored of people in non 0.0 corps quoting the 7mil per member per day thing. Exactly ^^ Tell you guys what if ure CEO came to you and said you had to pay him 7 mil per day to stay in his corp wut would you do ?
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:14:00 - [208] Originally by: Lynn de'Marco /me getting bored of people in non 0.0 corps quoting the 7mil per member per day thing. Sorry, I'm in a transition phase. This IS my main, and I WAS in 0.0 several times. --Isaac Signature is now under construction: check back in a couple weeks. AMAAR VICTOR! "You just can't fix stupid"
Mynas Atoch UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:18:00 - [209] Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 07/11/2009 01:18:54 So station costs treble, but we'll have to pay if we want to keep them. Breidge costs treble, so we'll shut down all but the most important. POS fuel bonus nerfed so we'll drop sov in all non station/bridge systems. Which, tbh, is pretty much cost neutral - the loss of sov pos in non station systems balances the cost of sov in stations. The sole result for alliances is fewer jumpbridges and slightly more expensive moon mining. Macroeconomic factors - huge new isk sink - might affect this, but not immediatly. a) no effect for players b) less work for infrastructure POS teams c) a new toy for alliance managements Now ... prove that an infrastructure module can pay for itself in an NON-strategic system and we have something further to discuss. Till, then shrug Myn
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:18:00 - [210] Originally by: Vivian Azure A Battlecruiser-spawn is some 600k ISK allready, so 7 Million ISK takes some 30 minutes of ratting in an utterly crap 0.0-system... not hours. So excuse me, but if you as a member can't contribute 30 minutes a day to pay the bills of your alliance, then you're a lazy bum and should get kicked out of your alliance 0.0 space. --- I can see why all of the big alliance-players are whining so much... they have to do some 30 minutes of work per day contributing to their alliance and the alliance won't be able to build tons of Titans, Moms and Dreads anymore for their lazy members... oh the joy So you are suggesting eve-online should instead of game become work. Also you really need to get a clue. For starters if you think building a single titan is that easy why arent you building them? Do you even know how much resources/time/effort it takes to even start building one? Do you even know what it takes to live in 0.0 space and what risks there are? Cause if it was that simple every 2 char corp would have an alliance and a sov system with station. Also in this game there are corporations that are made out of RL friends, or ppl that became friends over time. We play together cause this is not work this is game, but I understand that concept of friendship might be strange to you.

Kanatta Jing	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:19:00 - [211] CCP Chronotis - "Military Index The military index is based upon killing NPCs, a favourite past time of many of you and you get more points, the bigger the NPC is. Simple and straightforward!" I was going to counter point with this quote but I misread it. I thought it was "the more points you have the bigger the NPC's are" Well most Anomalies are crap, but some are worth a 20 million and a ton of battleship salvage, and Drone ones can offer some variation to your salvage letting you make different rigs. To be honest, the Grav sites might be worth it it rats didn't spawn in them, it's almost worth the effort to mine them but it's rarely worth the ship to tank. I was pretty excited by the changes but they went a little more conservative on the upgrades then I thought they would. Seriously I was expecting x3 ratting efficiency at the least.
Caliph Scorpionsting Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:20:00 - [212] These proposed changes really and truly are garbage. I have never run a cosmic anomaly. I don't know anyone who has ever run an anomaly. The amount of bounty and salvage that is dropped from deadspace npcs is already less than regular belt rats. I don't want more trash. I want something tangible. There is no reason not to live in empire if this goes live. If this ridiculous stuff goes live, all the major power blocs in 0.0 should just never fight. If this is CCP's "fix" to 0.0, then we can collectively turn it right back around and "break" it on them. If all the power blocs work collectively towards one end, we can force a meaningful change to 0.0 out of ccp. That collective end? Terrorize everyone in empire. Devote all of your resources to the unbridled destruction of EVERY resource people have in high sec. Wardec every mission runner. Suicide every. single. mission runner. When Empire is a barren wasteland, the product of a war machine fueled by running missions and various other non-0.0 related activities, it will be intolerable for everyone. The catalyst for change can come from within the game if CCP refuses to make 0.0 worth living in and claiming.
Tangonis Galt Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:20:00 - [213] Originally by: Fuujin Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51 When I read crap like you're posting here... oh boy. The upgrade is ment to draw tons of money out of the whole system. Players that strive for personal profits are not welcome in 0.0, they can run LvL 4 missions. 0.0 is about groups playing together, so all the money that can be made in a system is ment to fuel the alliance/corps holding the systems. I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable. Hi, what 90 belt system are you playing in? If you spend the hours needed to properly chain belts, and if you don't have any asshats coming and blowing up the chains, you can sustain maybe a half dozen ratters in a very high belt count system (15+). But that's only after several hours worth of work in cleaning out crap spawns--and that's assuming your system even gets decent ones (most 0.0 sucks). Chaining belts is SO 2006. If you are really ratting that way and your post was not simply a Troll, then when you learn to Rat correctly, you won't be so scared about Dominion. .
Bobby Atlas Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:22:00 - [214] CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ****ed. Lets rehash a few things - Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm )... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads. - Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income. - Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a **ed and convoluted concept. - Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother. - Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ****ed and exceedingly unbalanced. .... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster f-u-c-k, well done CCP.
adriaans Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:22:00 - [215] Originally by: c0rn1 lol. that's really funny, isn't it? I mean it's common that sov holding alliances take a fee of renters to use their space BUT if every a sov holding alliance would've put up those numbers to renters they'd call it a rip-off and no renter ever would go to 0.0. This is just hilarious, CCP. Remove the fees you suggested and make it a smart system. For example: you aim at 50-100 people per system (That's what you said is the amount of people 1 system can take). so take the alliance number of pilots into account as well. something like that for 1 system: 500 bn * [number of current systems] / alliance members - 5bn. Then you get a nice distribution and actually attract even small alliances (300+ ppl) to take space in 0.0. Your aim would be a distribution of 0.01 system/member. if that requirement is met, the alliance fulfils the requirement of 0.0 space without any fee since they have a 100% efficiency. So a 300 people alliance can take 3 systems in 0.0 at 0 cost. Each additional system costs them extra cash and the more they take, the exponential more they have to pay: Let's see the different relevances with different alliance numbers: 300 Members 1 - 3 Systems is free of charge and for each additional system: 1,6666 bn ISK Distributed to all systems holding: 1-3 Systems: 0 ISK / system 4 Systems: 416 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 1.66 bn ISK 5 Systems: 666 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 3.32 bn ISK 6 Systems: 833 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 5 bn ISK 10 Systems: 1.16 bn / system \| Monthly Bill = 11.6 bn ISK 1500 Members: 1-15 Systems free of charge and for each additional system: 333 mil 1-15 Systems: 0 ISK / system 16 Systems: 20.8 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 333 mil ISK 20 Systems: 83.3 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 1.665 bn ISK 30 Systems: 166 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 5.995 bn ISK 50 Systems: 233 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 11.667 bn ISK 5000 Members: 1-50 Systems free of charge and for each additional System: 100 mil 51 Systems: 2 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 100 mill 60 Systems: 16 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 1 bn ISK 80 Systems: 37.5 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 3bn ISK 100 Systems: 50 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 5bn ISK 150 Systems: 66 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 10bn ISK 200 Systems: 75 mil / system \| Monthly Bill = 15bn ISK Now you can get an additional factor into this: The factor would be the actual presence in the systems: Take as a base the system local. Count the undocked or moving pilots in that system of that explicit alliance over the day and calculate the average attendence to the system. Let's take 100 as base number of pilots which should be active in that system over a day since it would mean a maximum usage as well. do we only have a max count of 50 pilots over the day in that system it would mean only a 50% usage of it. calculatint the usage through all system will bring something between 30-70% overall usage. To bring this factor into our equation: (500 bn * [number of current systems] / alliance members - 5bn) / usage (50% = 0.5). Voilß, we have what we want. A progressing fee for our systems which actually attracts smaller entities into 0.0 as well since they do have nothing to pay for a certain amount of systems, but puts into progression the actual usage of systems. And if you tell me know larger alliances will start to make fleets just to visit their systems and have 100% usage. So be it if they don't have anything better to do than roam 2h through 200 systems of their empire. Sooner or later the consolidation of the territory will be the easier way to achieve a lower fee. cheers c0rn1 i like the idea, could use tweaking but the idea itself is very good -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr! Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail. QFT!
Evelgrivion Ignatium. Aggressive Dissonance	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:24:00 - [216] The Issues Faced with the Current Implementation of the Dominion Sovereignty System 1. New, fixed costs are introduced that are not offset by a resource they gather, which raises the barrier to entry of any solar system by a fixed cost. 2. Solar system improvements increase the quantity of existing types of spawns. Systems that spawn "worthless goods" relative to level 4 missions will remain worthless, because the amount of money you can make per hour will not change. 3. Big alliances have the material harvesting backbone to keep what they have if they optimize their networks a bit. Outlying systems will become more vulnerable, but a well set up jump bridge network will do what it does today. 4. Smaller alliances will still have a hard time establishing a foothold because the status quo for income remains intact, minus the absurdly high cost of owning any solar system whatsoever.
Zemi Dahut GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:25:00 - [217] Originally by: Bobby Atlas CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ****ed. Lets rehash a few things - Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm )... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads. - Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income. - Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a **ed and convoluted concept. - Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother. - Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ****ed and exceedingly unbalanced. .... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster f-u-c-k, well done CCP. Unironically quoting Bobby Atlas. What have you done CCP, what have you done?
Soleil Fournier AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:25:00 - [218] Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 07/11/2009 00:53:25 Sounds like: "Give me 100 Million ISK a day for free please." Well then something's wrong with your hearing. These upgrades were supposed to fix two things: 1) make each system scalable so it can support 50-100 players. 2) Make it to where you can upgrade systems so systems that arn't being used due to their lack in profit (IE a 4 belt -.3 system) could be upgraded and players able to earn some cash. Neither goal has been met with these upgrades. Anomalies are literally worthless...Level 4's blow them out of the water, as does just regular belt ratting. So having even 1,000 extra anomalies per system does nothing for an alliance. That's not an upgrade. We need tangible upgrades that will support more players, which is why those that I listed were given.
Tangonis Galt Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:26:00 - [219] Originally by: Caliph Scorpionsting If this ridiculous stuff goes live, all the major power blocs in 0.0 should just never fight. If this is CCP's "fix" to 0.0, then we can collectively turn it right back around and "break" it on them. If all the power blocs work collectively towards one end, we can force a meaningful change to 0.0 out of ccp. That collective end? Terrorize everyone in empire. Devote all of your resources to the unbridled destruction of EVERY resource people have in high sec. Wardec every mission runner. Suicide every. single. mission runner. When Empire is a barren wasteland, the product of a war machine fueled by running missions and various other non-0.0 related activities, it will be intolerable for everyone. The catalyst for change can come from within the game if CCP refuses to make 0.0 worth living in and claiming. Wow, the amount of Goonie tears in this thread is astounding. But really, 1/10 for a bad attempt at a Troll. .
iP0D	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:28:00 - [220] The alts trying to automagically defend a new Exodus expansion are really interesting

Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:30:00 - [221] Looking at this, what it really boils down to is a Cynojammer Nerf. Right now, if you've got sov 3 then you've probably got a cynojammer installed, there are huge swatches of 0.0 that are essentially buffer zones against invasion. All the other strategic upgrades are only needed in a few key systems (jumb bridges, supercap production, cyno beacons) and those can be spread throughout an alliance's 'claimed' space, with the space in between unclaimed to save money. It's not advantageous to claim sov without a tangible benefit, and the fundamental benefits of claiming sov are the strategic upgrades which help you protect your core assets. I can see the likes of CVA taking sov only in station systems and maybe a few other key locations (jump bridge exchanges, high end moons) and leaving the rest of providence unclaimed but still claiming it in spirit. NRDS alliances may well decide that neutrals may be disallowed from running exploration sites. Anyway, the strategic upgrade I want to see is a gate monitor that automaticly posts Pilot and ship intel to an alliance intel channel every time a pilot jumps through.
Lynn de'Marco Divine Power. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:31:00 - [222] Originally by: Bobby Atlas CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ****ed. Lets rehash a few things - Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm )... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads. - Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income. - Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a **ed and convoluted concept. - Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother. - Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ****ed and exceedingly unbalanced. .... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster f-u-c-k, well done CCP. i never thought i'd do this but....... i agree with bobby completely
Navick	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:33:00 - [223] A Checklist for Posters in this Topic: - Are you a member of a corp or alliance that currently holds sovereignty and will be directly affected by these changes? - Has your corporation or alliance ever fought for and won control of an area of space, only to find out that in less than a month CCP wants to tax what you fought for right out from under you? - Would you like to be able to do other things when you log in besides ratting constantly to pay your "space rent"? Here, I'll make it even simpler. - Do you actually live in 0.0 space? Have you ever even ENTERED 0.0 space? Do you have any first-hand knowledge of life in "Nullsec" whatsoever? If you answered "NO" to any of the above questions, please take your mouse pointer off of the Reply button because you do not have the slightest freaking clue what you're talking about. This thread already has enough people regurgitating imaginary he-said-she-said isk-per-hour figures without you adding to it.
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:34:00 - [224] Originally by: CCP Chronotis in January We didn't notify anyone about the change until 2 weeks before launch because until 2 weeks before launch we hadn't made a decision. You basically found out when we found out. We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers. It was a misread at an organizational level. Design, Marketing, Production, Community. You name it.
Tangonis Galt Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:34:00 - [225] Originally by: Vivian Azure And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining. This.
Korodan Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:35:00 - [226] Edited by: Korodan on 07/11/2009 01:35:15 Originally by: Bobby Atlas CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ****ed. Lets rehash a few things - Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm )... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads. - Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income. - Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a **ed and convoluted concept. - Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother. - Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ****ed and exceedingly unbalanced. .... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster f-u-c-k, well done CCP. Oh god why am I agreeing with Bobby Atlas, I think this is a sign of the apocalypse.
Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:36:00 - [227] Originally by: Fuujin Originally by: CCP Chronotis in January We didn't notify anyone about the change until 2 weeks before launch because until 2 weeks before launch we hadn't made a decision. You basically found out when we found out. We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers. It was a misread at an organizational level. Design, Marketing, Production, Community. You name it. Nice one, but I doubt CCP will get the reference.
Stevens Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:36:00 - [228] Originally by: Fuujin Originally by: CCP Chronotis in January We didn't notify anyone about the change until 2 weeks before launch because until 2 weeks before launch we hadn't made a decision. You basically found out when we found out. We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers. It was a misread at an organizational level. Design, Marketing, Production, Community. You name it. Bookmarking for future awesome.
Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:36:00 - [229] Originally by: ElvenLord Originally by: Vivian Azure A Battlecruiser-spawn is some 600k ISK allready, so 7 Million ISK takes some 30 minutes of ratting in an utterly crap 0.0-system... not hours. So excuse me, but if you as a member can't contribute 30 minutes a day to pay the bills of your alliance, then you're a lazy bum and should get kicked out of your alliance 0.0 space. --- I can see why all of the big alliance-players are whining so much... they have to do some 30 minutes of work per day contributing to their alliance and the alliance won't be able to build tons of Titans, Moms and Dreads anymore for their lazy members... oh the joy So you are suggesting eve-online should instead of game become work. Also you really need to get a clue. For starters if you think building a single titan is that easy why arent you building them? Do you even know how much resources/time/effort it takes to even start building one? Do you even know what it takes to live in 0.0 space and what risks there are? Cause if it was that simple every 2 char corp would have an alliance and a sov system with station. Also in this game there are corporations that are made out of RL friends, or ppl that became friends over time. We play together cause this is not work this is game, but I understand that concept of friendship might be strange to you. I'm aware of what it takes to live in 0.0, holding outposts and building super-capitals, as I'm doing it for 3 years allready. I'm not postig with my main-character for obvious reasons. My glorified leadership would kick me out of my corp instatly, as they themselves are whining about the changes the most, because they don't have the slightest clue 30 minutes of ratting, or flying a single LvL 4 mission can't hardly be called work tbh, if you compare it with the amount of time I spend with hauling, fueling towers and reactors or production every day. The usual grunts don't know what they're talking about, as we industrial players are the ones so far, who do all the work for them, so that they can enjoy the game. Now it's their time to contribute some time for the alliance aswell. If all people like me would stop doing their things in EvE-0.0-alliances for a single day, then the impact would be 10fold bigger then the upcoming patch, so yeah... stop whining.
Navick GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:38:00 - [230] Edited by: Navick on 07/11/2009 01:41:28 Originally by: Tangonis Galt Originally by: Vivian Azure And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining. This. Post with your main. edit - Originally by: Vivian Azure 30 minutes of ratting, or flying a single LvL 4 mission can't hardly be called work tbh, if you compare it with the amount of time I spend with hauling, fueling towers and reactors or production every day. The usual grunts don't know what they're talking about, as we industrial players are the ones so far, who do all the work for them, so that they can enjoy the game. Now it's their time to contribute some time for the alliance aswell. If all people like me would stop doing their things in EvE-0.0-alliances for a single day, then the impact would be 10fold bigger then the upcoming patch, so yeah... stop whining. Not everyone wants to pay $15 per account per month for what basically amounts to a second job, Vivian. Nobody's telling you how to play your EVE, so stop telling everyone else how to play theirs.

Valeronx Celestial Horizon Corp. United Corporate Ventures	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:41:00 - [231] Originally by: Navick you do not have the slightest freaking clue what you're talking about. This thread already has enough people regurgitating imaginary he-said-she-said isk-per-hour figures without you adding to it. Don't be so hard on your Goon corpmates. They don't have a clear understanding of what the new changes mean, and are just reacting out of fear.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:43:00 - [232] Originally by: Korodan Oh god why am I agreeing with Bobby Atlas, I think this is a sign of the apocalypse. And why is it suddenly so cold? ---------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
Valtis Thermalion Caldari Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:43:00 - [233] What all the "It's only 7m per member!" posters fail to realize is that why would anyone want to hold sov in the first place? Ok, alliance taxes it members so it can pay sov bill and gets.... 10% fuel reduction and name in the upper left corner. That's it. Outposts work just fine without any sov, you can rat and mine in systems without sov. Sure, jumpbridges etc. are nice, but you only need few systems for those. I guarantee that if this goes through like that, alliances will abandon their space, holding only few systems for jumpbridges and cap production and keeping the abanonded systems clear with mere military presence. Also, this is very unfortunate for nrds as many have stated. Even if the upgrades were worth it, neutrals would take large portion of the new income, leaving us with massive sov bill. If we limited their access or demanded rent, we would be essentially running nbsi, and if we leave them be, we are faced with the costs without any benefits.
Deldrac Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:43:00 - [234] There is something missing here. Either this is just a massive arbitrary increase in the cost of sov, in return for trivial opportunities to increase space (maybe meaning a system can support anything up to two or three more people, so long as those two or three people enjoy mining or ratting for crappy anomaly rats); or there is so much information missing from this devblog that coming to any conclusion is pointless.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:43:00 - [235] Originally by: CCP The Streams Must Flow You will be able to purchase and install upgrades in an infrastructure hub. These upgrades will unlock and add additional resources into your system, such as new hidden belts or encounters to complexes or escalation sites for you to find, thus increasing your potential diffuse income streams and theoretical member resource capacity of each system as a result. VS Originally by: CCP The Benefits of Resource Upgrades Note the names for the upgrades are not final! Pirate Magnets - add two additional guaranteed anomalies per level to your solar system Ore Prospecting Array - adds one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level to your solar system Entrapment - increase the chance significantly of a DED complex being located in the depths of your solar system Survey Networks - increase the chance significantly of mini-profession sites being located within your solar system Quantum Flux Generator - increase the chance significantly of a wormhole being discovered within your solar system to w-space. I can't believe both blogs are from the same company. How are these resource upgrades going to increase diffuse income streams for Alliances ( most of the value genreated by these aren't taxable and even if they were are nowhere near the costs we see thrown around ) and increase "theoretical member resource capacity of each system" You want 50-100 people scanning and trying to share what? At most 20-25 additional sites? Even if it where 1 extra site per proposed user in system, how are people supposed to find "theirs"? Sharing 10-15 belts between a few ratters equals a lot of wasted play-time warping back and forth, now multiply that by 10 and most carebears are going to waste most of their time trying to find ISK, instead of making it.
Navick GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:45:00 - [236] Originally by: Valeronx Originally by: Navick you do not have the slightest freaking clue what you're talking about. This thread already has enough people regurgitating imaginary he-said-she-said isk-per-hour figures without you adding to it. Don't be so hard on your Goon corpmates. They don't have a clear understanding of what the new changes mean, and are just reacting out of fear. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/United_Corporate_Ventures Members - 146 Corporations - 3 Sovereignty - 0 Outposts - 0 Please, Mr. Expert, teach me how this game works. Oh wai-
Loike Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:45:00 - [237] While I expected you to increase sov holding costs, by this much is just stupid. You say you want to make larger alliances lower their claims, but this also completely hinders small alliance growth. Your new method of sov warfare is now completely based on blobbing, something you have clearly said you want to get rid of :/
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:46:00 - [238] Originally by: Illectroculus Defined All the other strategic upgrades are only needed in a few key systems (jumb bridges, supercap production, cyno beacons) and those can be spread throughout an alliance's 'claimed' space, with the space in between unclaimed to save money. It's not advantageous to claim sov without a tangible benefit, and the fundamental benefits of claiming sov are the strategic upgrades which help you protect your core assets. Not really. You dont even need to claim station systems, as stations are not linked to sov and have RF timers, so they are pretty much like POSs in NPC space. In Dominion only difference in having a sov in station system or not might be 6h of STOPs onlining (depends on what hits TQ). With nerf of moon goo etc, there are no real core assets that you can protect, unless you want to risk that much and make a titan for example.
Strabo44 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:47:00 - [239] Originally by: Bobby Atlas CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ****ed. Lets rehash a few things - Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm )... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads. - Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income. - Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a **ed and convoluted concept. - Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother. - Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ****ed and exceedingly unbalanced. .... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster f-u-c-k, well done CCP. Good lord I'm agreeing with Bobby Atlas.
Sally Bestonge	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:47:00 - [240] upgrades can't sustain 50-100 people, maintenance is too expensive and r64s are getting nerfed anyway. CCP is going the swg route now is a good time to quit

Valeronx Celestial Horizon Corp. United Corporate Ventures	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:49:00 - [241] Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51 When I read crap like you're posting here... oh boy. The upgrade is ment to draw tons of money out of the whole system. Players that strive for personal profits are not welcome in 0.0, they can run LvL 4 missions. 0.0 is about groups playing together, so all the money that can be made in a system is ment to fuel the alliance/corps holding the systems. I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable. Stop thinking about yourself and being egoistic. Dominion is ment to make people work together for their systems and space, and not just have a few people fueling the POSs. This is the best thing CCP has ever came up with tbh. It'll be interesting to see the Influence Map in January or Feburary. By and large though, I agree.
Mynas Atoch UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:53:00 - [242] Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 07/11/2009 01:54:16 Originally by: Valeronx It'll be interesting to see the Influence Map in January or Feburary. By and large though, I agree. It will show that alliances only claim their stations and critical bridge nodes. The rest they won't claim but will continue using as before. less unecessary sov pos, less bridge routes .. and .. er ... that's about it. Unless there is more to the infrastruture stuff, that is. Still waiting to hear the fine detail on that, but not optimistic.
Soryn Kael Chaos From Order Manifest Destiny.	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:54:00 - [243] This really removes any incentive for a smaller alliance to move into 0.0. What's the point? You don't make more isk, you have to pay exhorbitant amounts of isk and you're at risk of losing everything because a larger group is angry. 10 people doing a half hour a day.. great.. that's for ONE system. Don't let those 10 people be on at the same time, god no.. then it would get too crowded. Don't let them earn isk for themselves either, that messes up those numbers. Don't let hostiles come into the system and kill a ship either. Basically this is a system that allows you to take a fairly worthless system and pay tons of money and turn it into a fairly worthless system, but only if you force a bunch of people to slave away in your fairly worthless system.
Lusulpher Blackwater Syndicate Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:54:00 - [244] Something is wrong with these numbers, CCP... A level 4 mission has near zero risk and brings a fully-fit BS into groups of 30+ NPC ships without warping around much. And 20mil an hour is easy in a .8 system, what is the scaling as you go toward -1.0? Lowsec buff "Corruption" and Viceroyalty would also help get the fringe population of nullsec up. Why must all null players dump goods in hisec? Shouldn't Lowsec be the home of unscrupulous middlemen? "I run Bartertown." I'm talking tax/monetary reductions, on contracts, transactions, corp bills, Sov/upkeep relted items,everything in Lowsec. lowsec should be evryone's 2nd home. A new player should be able to make more money doing agents and pirating in a .3 than staying in a .8...that simple. When you buff bounty and NPC ship spawns I hope you are considering increasing belt spawns to 4+ BS also...you know to the point where it's an actual teamwork thing...should be easy with 50 people in a system, and in fleet finder mode. This is very troubling. Moon values are dropping as they should FINALLY, but if all personal income goes to alliance upkeep taxes, where is the wealth for the common man(praised be Marx) so that all these new null residents can roam around and have fun. Alliance tax coming? To make this all more streamlined. And put priority on Treaties, this system needs it. When are wormholes going to time out only when you use up their travel limit? What's the point of finding a shortcut to highsec and saving the bm if it's gone in 2 days? Bm spam/clusterfuuk is not good for EVE, losing a Logistics route is not good for nullsec. Make such rare W-holes harder to probe out and you have a mini-market of bm sales. Titans/Caps going to need Sov/Tax upkeep eventually? Seeing as how you still have no limiting factor on stockpiling blobs of them? And you really can't create all these new item drops in anomalies and plexes to be farmed without creating an additional need/market for them at the same time. Planet Governance? or else the price on contracts will tank. And we will have fullyfactionfitsupercap lossmails. I beleive all the devblog numbers to be litmus testers though, just getting in ideas to end the idea block. 7
Kanatta Jing	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:55:00 - [245] Before you emo quit I'm going to do the unthinkable. Best guesses are that Technetium is the new Dysprosium and will make about as much per moon. Now you can wage a horrible brutal war for a few months while waiting for the T2 production chain to be finally fixed and for the system upgrades to be buffed sufficiently. In the mean time I can has your space right?
Virtuozzo The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:55:00 - [246] Originally by: Vivian Azure I'm aware of what it takes to live in 0.0, holding outposts and building super-capitals, as I'm doing it for 3 years allready. I'm not postig with my main-character for obvious reasons. My glorified leadership would kick me out of my corp instatly, as they themselves are whining about the changes the most, because they don't have the slightest clue 30 minutes of ratting, or flying a single LvL 4 mission can't hardly be called work tbh, if you compare it with the amount of time I spend with hauling, fueling towers and reactors or production every day. The usual grunts don't know what they're talking about, as we industrial players are the ones so far, who do all the work for them, so that they can enjoy the game. Now it's their time to contribute some time for the alliance aswell. If all people like me would stop doing their things in EvE-0.0-alliances for a single day, then the impact would be 10fold bigger then the upcoming patch, so yeah... stop whining. Ah, if only there would be more of you, but then with a bit more aptitude and possibly a bit of attitude to stand in either the light or the dark, then we could have our wonderful victim alliances of the past again, to gank and grief and serve as entertainment Now that would make things worthwhile. Key is that you are staring yourself somewhat blind at the detail level from just a singular perspective. Reverse the perspective and the math for a moment, to that of an organisation living in low sec (as an example) and on course to engage themselves in 0.0 in competition with the vested organisations. An engagement which involves more variables than just isk, effort, time, manpower, willpower, assets, replacement capacity, shipping capacity and egg timers. Not to mention general mindset, and a little bit of exposure, since even the most mentally challenged noob fresh out of starter corp understands the concepts of servitude, slavery and isk/hour ratios It takes things right back to "is it worth it to repopulate 0.0". This is the focus of Dominion, at least according to statements and speeches at Fanfest. Remember, small gang warfare did not die because of EVE War I or Titans, it died because the victim types left for empire over time, after which the trend got reinforced by a polarised 0.0 and the standard subscriber behaviour of taking everything into excess (resulting in the grind syndrome, which in spite of CCP's screwup of letting the conditions linger on for years we as players each and every time made the choice to go nuts with what was essentially a broken system). Dominion does introduce enough variables to shake things up, and the Titan nerf opens the door again to either carpet bombing as a mass doctrine or the art of the blob, but that aside it has the potential to increase the pace of events for those already vested in 0.0. But it does not provide any vacuum or even perception of room or competitive angles for those not already there, who are not interested in a career of servitude controlled through the art of schizofrenia. We'll have more to shoot for a while, but we'll end up facing more blobs. At least capital losses will over time have more significance, which means we will push harder on numbers to mitigate the risk of not achieving objectives - we have all seen these trends as the de facto behaviour of space holding organisations for years on end. But I pitty those who want to make the step to have a go out there. It's just not worth it in isk, effort, risk, gank or grief. But, maybe there is still a rabbit coming out of a hat somewhere, similar to having a err second look at moon resource distribution ratios
cok cola Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:57:00 - [247] Edited by: cok cola on 07/11/2009 01:57:30 ccp's exodus part 2 failed again too
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:58:00 - [248] To put it mildly, those costs seem extremely high. Before you can even begin to start upgrading, the cost is 900m/per month for just ONE system (base+hub)? And the upgrades themselves will increase that further? Do you seriously think that this will encourage more small alliances into nullsec? This seriously needs to be adjusted. I like the concept you've put together, but it really needs to be a sliding scale. The first/best system an alliance controls should cost maybe a tenth this amount, with the amount scaling upwards for each additional system. If, for example, the price started at 1/5 the proposed amount (120m), with a 10% added per system per system, then the cost of the 18th system would match these numbers, with additional systems going even higher. That way small alliances can control a small number of systems without going broke, yet at the same time fabulously wealthy alliances can't simply buy terrain as far as the eye can see. -- Becq Starforged The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
SamuraiJack Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:58:00 - [249] Originally by: Navick http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/United_Corporate_Ventures Members - 146 Corporations - 3 Sovereignty - 0 Outposts - 0 Please, Mr. Expert, teach me how this game works. Oh wai- Take a closer look. CLS is one of those 3. We are well aware of how sov works, pos's and stations. =- The Chronicles of SamuraiJack
Sally Bestonge	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:58:00 - [250] also note that although a large majority of you guys might be unemployed, basement-dwelling lowest-common-denominators in society, many of us have real lives to attend to and would rather not be forced to grind out 7m ISK each day to hold space

Valeronx Celestial Horizon Corp. United Corporate Ventures	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:03:00 - [251] Edited by: Valeronx on 07/11/2009 02:05:26 Originally by: Mynas Atoch Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 07/11/2009 01:54:16 Originally by: Valeronx It'll be interesting to see the Influence Map in January or Feburary. By and large though, I agree. It will show that alliances only claim their stations and critical bridge nodes. The rest they won't claim but will continue using as before. less unecessary sov pos, less bridge routes .. and .. er ... that's about it. Unless there is more to the infrastruture stuff, that is. Still waiting to hear the fine detail on that, but not optimistic. Yes Mynas. That's what I was pointing out. Alliances will lay claim to and use...what they can use. And your right again I think, they might use a bit but won't bother to lay official claim to large swaths of empty space. Will they designate that space for Renter or Meatshield Alliances ? Will they keep them empty and try and police them to keep others out ? Will they shed bitter tears and pack up back to Empire space beacuse they have to work to hold space instead of relying on passive income streams ? That's why the next few months are going to be an interesting time for EVE. .
Lonewolfnight Gallente Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:04:00 - [252] It has taken years to develop and build an environment and economy that can support larger player counts per system. I'm pretty sure CVA can claim significant success at being able to drive up the average 0.0 system population. We've been discussing this over and and over inside our alliance. We've continued to say, wait till the fee's come out. Something has to be good in this. Today, total disappointment. What brings people to 0.0? The community, the market, the ability to function safely! Raters want less people in system. Mini-explor'ers want fewer people in their systems to compete with! So why increase the draw for these people? Do you know who wants more people in a given system? Industrialists, the producers of products. They need people to supply raw materials and purchase their finished product. Take a look at CVA space and you'll see a thriving economy. An economy that is in serious danger of crashing. Why? because many industrial based people are pulling out! I've been dealing with hundreds of conversations from pilots all over the area! What is this patch doing? Driving people back to empire. Why pay for what you can get for little or nothing?! Is that what is wanted? Move back to empire? So today, there will be less security. Less stability and more people wanting "solo". Great just great. At one point, a CCP person said they liked what we had done to our area. Well guess what, you just stabbed it in the heart! Please take these numbers, the sov system, go back to the drawing board. Implement an complete system that both address the goals as well as provides a way for the players to complete them. Don't set static costs and then rumor a "tax" next patch. P.S. here's a thought. How about base your fee's off the true sec status? Balance the risk/reward at least a little bit. Since the worm hole/rat/mining sites are all just upgrades of that base value. CEO
Navick GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:04:00 - [253] Originally by: SamuraiJack Originally by: Navick http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/United_Corporate_Ventures Members - 146 Corporations - 3 Sovereignty - 0 Outposts - 0 Please, Mr. Expert, teach me how this game works. Oh wai- Take a closer look. CLS is one of those 3. We are well aware of how sov works, pos's and stations. That's funny, I've never heard of you.
Mankil	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:04:00 - [254] Originally by: Hrin Can you artificially upgrade some constellations on sisi so we can see these upgrades in action? +1
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:04:00 - [255] Originally by: Vivian Azure Originally by: ElvenLord Originally by: Vivian Azure A Battlecruiser-spawn is some 600k ISK allready, so 7 Million ISK takes some 30 minutes of ratting in an utterly crap 0.0-system... not hours. So excuse me, but if you as a member can't contribute 30 minutes a day to pay the bills of your alliance, then you're a lazy bum and should get kicked out of your alliance 0.0 space. --- I can see why all of the big alliance-players are whining so much... they have to do some 30 minutes of work per day contributing to their alliance and the alliance won't be able to build tons of Titans, Moms and Dreads anymore for their lazy members... oh the joy So you are suggesting eve-online should instead of game become work. Also you really need to get a clue. For starters if you think building a single titan is that easy why arent you building them? Do you even know how much resources/time/effort it takes to even start building one? Do you even know what it takes to live in 0.0 space and what risks there are? Cause if it was that simple every 2 char corp would have an alliance and a sov system with station. Also in this game there are corporations that are made out of RL friends, or ppl that became friends over time. We play together cause this is not work this is game, but I understand that concept of friendship might be strange to you. I'm aware of what it takes to live in 0.0, holding outposts and building super-capitals, as I'm doing it for 3 years allready. I'm not postig with my main-character for obvious reasons. My glorified leadership would kick me out of my corp instatly, as they themselves are whining about the changes the most, because they don't have the slightest clue 30 minutes of ratting, or flying a single LvL 4 mission can't hardly be called work tbh, if you compare it with the amount of time I spend with hauling, fueling towers and reactors or production every day. The usual grunts don't know what they're talking about, as we industrial players are the ones so far, who do all the work for them, so that they can enjoy the game. Now it's their time to contribute some time for the alliance aswell. If all people like me would stop doing their things in EvE-0.0-alliances for a single day, then the impact would be 10fold bigger then the upcoming patch, so yeah... stop whining. Yes yes, the cost isn't terrible in the grand scheme of things, but there's one bit you're missing. Let's say you buy every upgrade in one system. How many people will that support? It doesn't appear to be anywhere near 50-100.
Panzram GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:05:00 - [256] also agreeing w/ bobby atlas
SamuraiJack Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:05:00 - [257] Originally by: Navick That's funny, I've never heard of you. Thats ok. I'll just post the ass pic again to remind ppl. :P =- The Chronicles of SamuraiJack
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:06:00 - [258] Originally by: Navick Originally by: SamuraiJack Originally by: Navick http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/United_Corporate_Ventures Members - 146 Corporations - 3 Sovereignty - 0 Outposts - 0 Please, Mr. Expert, teach me how this game works. Oh wai- Take a closer look. CLS is one of those 3. We are well aware of how sov works, pos's and stations. That's funny, I've never heard of you. That's 'cause you're new.
Virtuozzo The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:07:00 - [259] Originally by: SamuraiJack Originally by: Navick That's funny, I've never heard of you. Thats ok. I'll just post the ass pic again to remind ppl. :P OH NO YOU WILL NOT I only managed to get it out of my nightmares last year man ≡v≡ [red]Please resize sig to a file size
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:08:00 - [260] Since we love throwing around numbers...here is some theory numbers for you guys to chew on: 2 Billion isk for a system per month is what generally has been thrown around. Keeping that in mind... 50 people. This is about the size of a small alliance that could potentially join 0.0. (I say potentially, however, it is highly unlikely) It would probably consist of 3-4 corps. 30 days = month give or take a day. 20% tax rate on all 50 members. This is about average for corps who tax members. I've seen 10, I've seen 30, so don't shoot me. If each member is earning around 10mil a day pure ratting or mining, based off corp taxes, you get 3 billion isk a month pure corp tax. (taxing miners = outposts btw or some other creative way) I don't know about you guys, but right now I'm pretty sure ppl are doing this already. (I will agree, ppl don't rat every day, some do it in chunks so its still of note) So there you go. I will agree with some though, I would like to see 0.0 security status be upgradable which so far, it doesn't look that way. Mildly lame CCP I sincerely hope you left that out of the blog by accident. PLEASE answer our concerns. Thanks --Isaac Signature is now under construction: check back in a couple weeks. AMAAR VICTOR! "You just can't fix stupid"

Navick GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:10:00 - [261] I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm declaring your opinion invalid, it's nothing personal. The point I'm getting at is that a vast majority of the people posting about how great these changes are are players who do not live/play in 0.0, will not bear the cost of these changes, and in many regards will not even be affected by them at all. In short, "easy for you to say." It's expected that this should be a rather polarized argument - those penalized by the changes against, those not penalized by the changes for. The difference is that the majority of the empire-dwellers chiming in on this subject have zero first hand knowledge of how 0.0 actually works, and are forming opinions based on hearsay. The 0.0-dwellers' unanimous opposal to these changes is based on actual firsthand knowledge of the game mechanics. I mean, cmon, when Goons start quoting Bobby Atlas out of agreement then something has to be very, very wrong.
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:14:00 - [262] Originally by: Vivian Azure 30 minutes of ratting, or flying a single LvL 4 mission can't hardly be called work tbh, if you compare it with the amount of time I spend with hauling, fueling towers and reactors or production every day. Last time I tried to rat for 30 minutes I wanted to kill myself. If I would have to do it every day for next year or so I would prolly cancel my subscription. Same goes for mining (thou I do have periods it feels good ). But, I do understand and accept there are ppl that enjoy that and its fun for that, so this game fulfilled its purpose for them (it was worth the subscription). Originally by: Vivian Azure The usual grunts don't know what they're talking about, as we industrial players are the ones so far, who do all the work for them, so that they can enjoy the game. Now it's their time to contribute some time for the alliance aswell. Yes, but those grunts also provide protection for my freighter ops, help me with hauls from time to time, call me when there are hauler spawns, give me faction BPCs and sometimes mods etc. I have spent most of my eve life as a director/CEO in corporations, and I'm around a long time (since beta). Mainly been doing boring things as production, logistics, POSs etc. I do know what you are saying, but also those ppl you say dont contribute is not true. They do, cause if they wherent there you wouldnt have anyone to protect you, escort you... or to put it in better words, you would be out of the job. Everyone has its place in a ecosystem of an eve corporation, and they dont manage to find it they leave on their own usually. Originally by: Vivian Azure If all people like me would stop doing their things in EvE-0.0-alliances for a single day, then the impact would be 10fold bigger then the upcoming patch, so yeah... stop whining. You overestimate yourself and underestimate others. No one is irreplaceable, there will always be ppl that will step up and take your place, most of the times ppl you least expect. My advice to you is to start trusting ppl a bit, and sometimes ask for help or accept help, you might get surprised. You too might get to enjoy the occasional pew pew
Tangonis Galt Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:15:00 - [263] Originally by: Navick Nobody's telling you how to play your EVE, so stop telling everyone else how to play theirs. [/quote This is the lesson for today for you and your Corp. Please stop trying to tell us how to play our EVE. Thanks ! .
Bobby Atlas Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:17:00 - [264] Originally by: Isaac Starstriker Since we love throwing around numbers...here is some theory numbers for you guys to chew on: 2 Billion isk for a system per month is what generally has been thrown around. Keeping that in mind... 50 people. This is about the size of a small alliance that could potentially join 0.0. (I say potentially, however, it is highly unlikely) It would probably consist of 3-4 corps. 30 days = month give or take a day. 20% tax rate on all 50 members. This is about average for corps who tax members. I've seen 10, I've seen 30, so don't shoot me. If each member is earning around 10mil a day pure ratting or mining, based off corp taxes, you get 3 billion isk a month pure corp tax. (taxing miners = outposts btw or some other creative way) I don't know about you guys, but right now I'm pretty sure ppl are doing this already. (I will agree, ppl don't rat every day, some do it in chunks so its still of note) So there you go. I will agree with some though, I would like to see 0.0 security status be upgradable which so far, it doesn't look that way. Mildly lame CCP I sincerely hope you left that out of the blog by accident. PLEASE answer our concerns. Thanks --Isaac You forget the fact that a single solar system will not sustain 50 active pilots, the current incarnation of the upgrades will support maybe 25 very active players. Even then, a single solar system, devoting all your time to farming isk to maintain it - something just does not seem right about that in context of the larger plan that dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access easier for smaller entities - not time and cost prohibitive. Forget the fact if this small theoretical alliance should have to ever defend the system, they will run out of isk so fast that they will have no choice but to leave 0.0.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:19:00 - [265] Originally by: Isaac Starstriker Since we love throwing around numbers...here is some theory numbers for you guys to chew on: The numbers that you're missing: How many people can 1 fully upgraded system support? Paying for the upgrades is a hassle, but not devastating. But if you go from supporting 3 people per system to supporting 10 people per system, they aren't worth it. The only way this system works is if these anomalies are vastly better than 'normal' ones.
Sellmewarez	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:19:00 - [266] Originally by: Isaac Starstriker Since we love throwing around numbers...here is some theory numbers for you guys to chew on: 2 Billion isk for a system per month is what generally has been thrown around. Keeping that in mind... 50 people. This is about the size of a small alliance that could potentially join 0.0. (I say potentially, however, it is highly unlikely) It would probably consist of 3-4 corps. 30 days = month give or take a day. 20% tax rate on all 50 members. This is about average for corps who tax members. I've seen 10, I've seen 30, so don't shoot me. If each member is earning around 10mil a day pure ratting or mining, based off corp taxes, you get 3 billion isk a month pure corp tax. (taxing miners = outposts btw or some other creative way) I don't know about you guys, but right now I'm pretty sure ppl are doing this already. (I will agree, ppl don't rat every day, some do it in chunks so its still of note) So there you go. I will agree with some though, I would like to see 0.0 security status be upgradable which so far, it doesn't look that way. Mildly lame CCP I sincerely hope you left that out of the blog by accident. PLEASE answer our concerns. Thanks --Isaac You remind me of one those people who thinks they understand eve because they have played with EFT a lot.
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:20:00 - [267] Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 07/11/2009 02:23:16 Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 07/11/2009 02:21:50 @Above, your right, I'm just throwing out numbers and I think CCP left something out of this dev blog so I'm going to keep waiting. Its not saying the whole picture so...yeah, I'll leave you guys to it. But the problem is...where is the line in the sand that says this is too much isk/hour. That is what CCP is trying to figure out I believe. And lol Sell. I hate EFT. I should have stated these are theoretical numbers, but I do understand where ppl are coming from so I get it now. @Lynn, you are correct, I am the same way so its why I'm going to be quiet now. I should have seen it before. --Isaac Signature is now under construction: check back in a couple weeks. AMAAR VICTOR! "You just can't fix stupid"
Lynn de'Marco Divine Power. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:22:00 - [268] isaac, your posts are well thought and articulated however: you cannot simply run calculations of how much a corp can generate from their members. members will not log on every day members will not want to grind isk every day they do log on members will have have other roles to carry out which occupy thier time not all members will want to make isk through taxible income perhaps in smaller corps where you have about 10 active RL players it would be feasable to get a 7mil per day contribution from everyone but for a lot of 0.0 corps this is not feasable and not fair on all the members either. you can do your sums "on paper" as much as you want but in practise this is not how it works out and i'm sure any director/ceo of a 0.0 corp will back me up.
Clavius XIV Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:24:00 - [269] Originally by: Isaac Starstriker 2 Billion isk for a system per month is what generally has been thrown around. Keeping that in mind... ... 20% tax rate on all 50 members. This is about average for corps who tax members. I've seen 10, I've seen 30, so don't shoot me. .. If each member is earning around 10mil a day pure ratting or mining, based off corp taxes, you get 3 billion isk a month pure corp tax. (taxing miners = outposts btw or some other creative way) I don't know about you guys, but right now I'm pretty sure ppl are doing this already. (I will agree, ppl don't rat every day, some do it in chunks so its still of note) Let's assume for a moment you have the ability to perfectly monetize the diffuse income through corp taxes. You are making the wrong comparison. For it to be "worth it" the marginal increase in isk granted by bonus spawns alone needs to be greater the than the maintenance cost. At your 20% tax rate how many hours of special anomaly time is needed (this has to include scanning time) to pay for sov? It seems to me you would be better off just spreading your 50 man alliance over a couple more systems, not claiming sov, and funding a few carriers every month with those taxes off of regular belt rats.
Cpt Underpants Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:26:00 - [270] I'm sitting here in disbelief. One, that CCP would put out such ridiculous cost when Dominion was supposed to open up 0.0 to more people, not make it prohibitively expensive even for the larger alliances. Two, that I'm agreeing with pretty much everything AAA, Atlas etc are saying about this. Corp taxes wont get the isk needed as so much of the 0.0 income is not derived from sources which can be taxed. eg: mining (compress and refine in empire or at a POS), faction loot from plexes, moon minerals from personal poses, reactions from personal poses. This shows that it will probably end up that the taxes will have to change to be a flat per-member fee collected by corps, which are then passed to alliance to pay for the sov holding. The other part, which at least one other player has mentioned is the economics of it. This ISK sink will reduce the amount of currency in the game, which makes the remaining ISK more valuable, as a result, the fixed cost of maintaining sov will actually be a bigger chunk of value.

rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:27:00 - [271] you know. there are these things called moons. generally they are semi-lucrative even after dominion. maybe that isk could go to pay sov bills rather than pay for huge cap fleets and megalomaniac directors? just a thought...
Vyktor Abyss Gallente The Abyss Corporation	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:27:00 - [272] I've only read a few of the feedback posts, so apologies if I repeat any of their words of wisdom. I'll try to group my thoughts regarding this blog into... The Good: ò Reducing the Sovreignty "footprint" (via increased cost) of current large alliances ò Autopayment feature - Excellent! ò Upgrades and the Index based system for rewarding "Activity" in 0.0 The Bad: ò Sovreignty cost is at least 5 times more expensive than it used to be (5x L towers? We used to only need 1x S Tower). Won't this mean LESS people go for Sovreignty? ò Reducing the "footprint" of a large alliance does not mean any "new" space is available - Large alliances will (still) stomp any new/smaller/non-aligned "non-pet" neighbours "because they can". ò You're not addressing the massive disparity between "good" 0.0 and "bad" 0.0 where a -1.0 Truesec system w/ R64-Moon is insanely more valuable than a -0.01 Truesec w/ Gas Moons (THE MAJORITY OF 0.0). ò The majority of 0.0 systems ("Poor" 0.0) will still be poor reward compared to Empire at 5x higher cost (and risk). ò If anything this makes 0.0 less attractive and less feasible for smaller alliances The Ugly: ò You're hanging CVA out to dry (with the fees, not listening/responding even to their leaders posts) despite holding them up as a good example of emergent play in 0.0 ò You have not even mentioned Ouposts - What about all that legacy of effort that went into building them? Overall I think if you run with this plan for 0.0 mechanics, I think contrary to your hopes of populating 0.0 with more people; 0.0 will become even more barren with the loss of much of the existing 0.0 alliances/communities to Empire (or to other computer games). My previous excitement about "new emergent 0.0" from other blogs has turned to scepticism about new grind-fest 0.0 after the mechanics of this blog.
Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:29:00 - [273] Originally by: ElvenLord Originally by: Vivian Azure 30 minutes of ratting, or flying a single LvL 4 mission can't hardly be called work tbh, if you compare it with the amount of time I spend with hauling, fueling towers and reactors or production every day. Last time I tried to rat for 30 minutes I wanted to kill myself. If I would have to do it every day for next year or so I would prolly cancel my subscription. Same goes for mining (thou I do have periods it feels good ). But, I do understand and accept there are ppl that enjoy that and its fun for that, so this game fulfilled its purpose for them (it was worth the subscription). Originally by: Vivian Azure The usual grunts don't know what they're talking about, as we industrial players are the ones so far, who do all the work for them, so that they can enjoy the game. Now it's their time to contribute some time for the alliance aswell. Yes, but those grunts also provide protection for my freighter ops, help me with hauls from time to time, call me when there are hauler spawns, give me faction BPCs and sometimes mods etc. I have spent most of my eve life as a director/CEO in corporations, and I'm around a long time (since beta). Mainly been doing boring things as production, logistics, POSs etc. I do know what you are saying, but also those ppl you say dont contribute is not true. They do, cause if they wherent there you wouldnt have anyone to protect you, escort you... or to put it in better words, you would be out of the job. Everyone has its place in a ecosystem of an eve corporation, and they dont manage to find it they leave on their own usually. Originally by: Vivian Azure If all people like me would stop doing their things in EvE-0.0-alliances for a single day, then the impact would be 10fold bigger then the upcoming patch, so yeah... stop whining. You overestimate yourself and underestimate others. No one is irreplaceable, there will always be ppl that will step up and take your place, most of the times ppl you least expect. My advice to you is to start trusting ppl a bit, and sometimes ask for help or accept help, you might get surprised. You too might get to enjoy the occasional pew pew Ironically I know your alliance very well and there's very few people who even acknowlede the work some of us do every day. And I've had no escorts at all since the introduction of Jumpfreighters and the Rorqual. Maybe I should say farewell and spend my time for my own interests instead of contributing to the alliance, when I read what you're saying.
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:32:00 - [274] Originally by: Undertow Latheus Awesome, sov is getting fixed, 0.0 is getting much more incentive, and owners can customize upgrade and personalize space. Now what the **** about lowsec? this patch makes lowsec and npc space look very appealing, unless ccp has a massive boost to anomalies planned they aren't telling us about. Basically this makes owning and maintaining any space incredibly expensive, while increasing the risk of owning it and doing nothing to actually increase its value.
Sage Eveo Trojan Trolls Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:32:00 - [275] Edited by: Sage Eveo on 07/11/2009 02:34:18 wtf. I think Bobby put it best. Objective: Get more people into 0.0 Solution: Make it more expensive, time draining, difficult & unattractive (for all reasons mentioned within previous responses). What are you boys smoking, CCP ? I say we play the "HTFU" song and go back to the drawing board. // Sage. Trojan Trolls [TROLL] // Controlled Chaos <TROLL>
Ayumi Fargazer	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:34:00 - [276] also a thing to keep in mind for the yay crowd: a vast majority of the 0.0 population moved into 0.0 because they wanted NOT to shoot at NPCs for hours on end each week... if they wanted they would have stayed in empire and grinded lvl4s which nets more money in less time then ratting and is virtually risk free i know most PvPers in my alliance (and a good batch of the logistics guys and industrialists as well) would rather stab theirselves in the head with a really dull knife then be forced to rat to just keep one system going
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:35:00 - [277] wow these numbers... wow we'll move to syndicate or npc delve if these go live like that, billions per month per system? there's no way anyone sane would pay that kind of price for conq 0.0 even if you gold-plate your economic upgrades you claim these numbers are based off aggregate tower fuel cost but they have no relation to reality/actual numbers of real alliances this had best be fixed by dec 1st or there will be an exodus from 0.0, i could see paying 300m a month or so for a fully upgraded system, but over 1.5b? ~illum leak~ [9:30:03 PM] Pringlescan: 1.275b zapa [9:30:06 PM] Pringlescan: for a jb system [9:30:08 PM] Pringlescan: hth [9:30:18 PM] brennah: this is **ing **ed [9:30:36 PM] Pringlescan: 2b for a jb/cyno jammed system [9:30:51 PM] karttoon: That blog is terrible [9:30:56 PM] karttoon: I put more effort into my war updates i expected to be fighting for the right to remain in 0.0 but i expected to be fighting my darling bobbits, not a ludicrous pile of ** tax that has no relation to our current costs! more words go here about how this is dumb and how we're going to have to bring out the pr flak cannons Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Alexi Kalashnikov GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:36:00 - [278] Originally by: Soleil Fournier We need upgrades that: Increase the number of belts in a system. Increase the security rating of the system to spawn better rats or ores. Increase the number of rats that spawn in a system. (I don't mean anomalies) Decrease the spawn timer of rats, from 20 minutes to 10 minutes. More upgrades like these ^ The problem with 00 and why alliances take huge areas of space is because there are a lot of systems that people just can't make money out of. And the systems you can make money out of only support 2-3 players tops. Those upgrades you listed throw the idea of upgrading worthless systems to be somewhat usefull out the window. If you want each system to support 50 people like ya'll have been touting, you need significant changes to this proposed system, because those changes listed do nothing to help support more players. Bam. Right ****ing there. CCP, take that single line back to your Dominion game plan and incorporate it. A single line will vastly improve the expansion. Delay the expansion, break it up: just do it right.
Soleil Fournier AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:36:00 - [279] Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 07/11/2009 02:38:24 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss I've only read a few of the feedback posts, so apologies if I repeat any of their words of wisdom. I'll try to group my thoughts regarding this blog into... The Good: ò Reducing the Sovreignty "footprint" (via increased cost) of current large alliances ò Autopayment feature - Excellent! ò Upgrades and the Index based system for rewarding "Activity" in 0.0 The Bad: ò Sovreignty cost is at least 5 times more expensive than it used to be (5x L towers? We used to only need 1x S Tower). Won't this mean LESS people go for Sovreignty? ò Reducing the "footprint" of a large alliance does not mean any "new" space is available - Large alliances will (still) stomp any new/smaller/non-aligned "non-pet" neighbours "because they can". ò You're not addressing the massive disparity between "good" 0.0 and "bad" 0.0 where a -1.0 Truesec system w/ R64-Moon is insanely more valuable than a -0.01 Truesec w/ Gas Moons (THE MAJORITY OF 0.0). ò The majority of 0.0 systems ("Poor" 0.0) will still be poor reward compared to Empire at 5x higher cost (and risk). ò If anything this makes 0.0 less attractive and less feasible for smaller alliances The Ugly: ò You're hanging CVA out to dry (with the fees, not listening/responding even to their leaders posts) despite holding them up as a good example of emergent play in 0.0 ò You have not even mentioned Ouposts - What about all that legacy of effort that went into building them? Overall I think if you run with this plan for 0.0 mechanics, I think contrary to your hopes of populating 0.0 with more people; 0.0 will become even more barren with the loss of much of the existing 0.0 alliances/communities to Empire (or to other computer games). My previous excitement about "new emergent 0.0" from other blogs has turned to scepticism about new grind-fest 0.0 after the mechanics of this blog. /perfectly stated! Make the upgrades a simply isk payment with a monthly cost. The "use" mechanic, while a novel idea, will in reality turn into a "grind just to grind" timesink that is unfun and not what eve is about. Players in 00 should be focused on fighting not grinding. But this poster had it right. /applaud
Bobby Atlas Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:37:00 - [280] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss I've only read a few of the feedback posts, so apologies if I repeat any of their words of wisdom. I'll try to group my thoughts regarding this blog into... The Good: ò Reducing the Sovreignty "footprint" (via increased cost) of current large alliances ò Autopayment feature - Excellent! ò Upgrades and the Index based system for rewarding "Activity" in 0.0 The Bad: ò Sovreignty cost is at least 5 times more expensive than it used to be (5x L towers? We used to only need 1x S Tower). Won't this mean LESS people go for Sovreignty? ò Reducing the "footprint" of a large alliance does not mean any "new" space is available - Large alliances will (still) stomp any new/smaller/non-aligned "non-pet" neighbours "because they can". ò You're not addressing the massive disparity between "good" 0.0 and "bad" 0.0 where a -1.0 Truesec system w/ R64-Moon is insanely more valuable than a -0.01 Truesec w/ Gas Moons (THE MAJORITY OF 0.0). ò The majority of 0.0 systems ("Poor" 0.0) will still be poor reward compared to Empire at 5x higher cost (and risk). ò If anything this makes 0.0 less attractive and less feasible for smaller alliances The Ugly: ò You're hanging CVA out to dry (with the fees, not listening/responding even to their leaders posts) despite holding them up as a good example of emergent play in 0.0 ò You have not even mentioned Ouposts - What about all that legacy of effort that went into building them? Overall I think if you run with this plan for 0.0 mechanics, I think contrary to your hopes of populating 0.0 with more people; 0.0 will become even more barren with the loss of much of the existing 0.0 alliances/communities to Empire (or to other computer games). My previous excitement about "new emergent 0.0" from other blogs has turned to scepticism about new grind-fest 0.0 after the mechanics of this blog. Thats only equal to 4-5L towers if you put NO UPGRADES into a system, the minute you start upgrading a system the costs rise very quickly.

Lonewolfnight Gallente Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:37:00 - [281] Originally by: rubico1337 you know. there are these things called moons. generally they are semi-lucrative even after dominion. maybe that isk could go to pay sov bills rather than pay for huge cap fleets and megalomaniac directors? just a thought... To dispel this idea. My corporation alone operates over 90 towers. After we pay marginal fee's to fueler's and haulers we're up about 3b a month. That is spread over 12 systems. So with that in mind, we can do about 250m per month per system in sov charges. Sure, you could drain every penny to keep that lonely flag in the corner. What is left to defend, invest, and upgrade? CEO
Clavius XIV Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:38:00 - [282] Originally by: Isaac Starstriker But the problem is...where is the line in the sand that says this is too much isk/hour. That is what CCP is trying to figure out I believe. I don't know what is too much, but I think CCP has drawn this baseline for what is too little quite clearly and that is highsec level 4 agents. Something that requires no scanning down, is instantly + unlimitedly available, negligible risk for properly skilled/equipped pilot should be the entry level 0.0 opportunity. If you take random person who is able to run highsec level 4, you need to give them a real reason to make a living in 0.0. Or to look at in another way, you need to give a person a reason to stay in 0.0 after they are done PvPing rather than heading to empire Lv4s to make isk for their next batch of ships.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:39:00 - [283] Originally by: SamuraiJack Originally by: Navick http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/United_Corporate_Ventures Members - 146 Corporations - 3 Sovereignty - 0 Outposts - 0 Please, Mr. Expert, teach me how this game works. Oh wai- Take a closer look. CLS is one of those 3. We are well aware of how sov works, pos's and stations. I remember the last time you were in 0.0, and I disagree. You've been sucking on the teat of mega-alliances for a long time.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:41:00 - [284] Originally by: The Mittani [9:30:36 PM] Pringlescan: 2b for a jb/cyno jammed system [9:30:51 PM] karttoon: That blog is terrible [9:30:56 PM] karttoon: I put more effort into my war updates i expected to be fighting for the right to remain in 0.0 but i expected to be fighting my darling bobbits, not a ludicrous pile of **** tax that has no relation to our current costs! more words go here about how this is dumb and how we're going to have to bring out the pr flak cannons so you can no longer create zero risk jump bridges and cynojam systems to protect your nap train without incurring significant costs? cry some more
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:42:00 - [285] people with no 0.0 alliance management experience talking out their buttes about what is or is not a reasonable cost not just in the blog, i mean Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:42:00 - [286] Originally by: Vivian Azure Maybe I should say farewell and spend my time for my own interests instead of contributing to the alliance, when I read what you're saying. I'm not saying you should stop contributing, no one should. I sure never did, no matter how hard it was at times. I just found a way to get more ppl involved in things I do so we all contribute to both corp/alliance and have time to do our own interests. Balance is the key. Originally by: rubico1337 you know. there are these things called moons. generally they are semi-lucrative even after dominion. maybe that isk could go to pay sov bills rather than pay for huge cap fleets and megalomaniac directors? just a thought... Those semi-lucrative moons pay a lot of things not just huge cap fleets, and even those huge cap fleets dont fly on their own. Stations dont build on their own. POSs are not perpetum mobile, Space is not held just cause you say it yours, that was before Exodus pt1. On the other hand, if you are a smaller empire alliance with a desire to go live in 0.0 you dont even have those moons. All you can hope for as starter capital is your members donations, and that can take you to a point. If space you take can not support both you as a member and you as a corporation/alliance then its not worth taking it and paying for it.
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:47:00 - [287] Originally by: Pringlescan I still don't understand why ccp can't figure out why people in 0.0 don't mine. Its not because there isn't ENOUGH of it, its because its not worth the isk/hour compared to ratting. Giving us more roids of the same type doesn't matter if no one is mining the ones we already have anyway. Sure there are a couple of peoples with bots who run 5 hulks at the same time but thats .1% of the eve 0.0 population. Also how do you expect any alliance without r64s to hold more then one system? OR expect people to fight wars of conquest when winning would be more expensive then losing? the only thing that makes 0.0 mining realistic is that it scales well with multiple accounts, otherwise you can make for more in minerals by just looting your non-gurista wrecks
Spuzum	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:48:00 - [288] I want the 10 trillion corporate account balance in the cpp dev blog. Maybe, then we could afford to hold sov on one system. Get real, CPP. This costs way to much to upkeep. It is a cost increase of 2 to 3 times for sov. It's an isk grab to make every corporation poorer.
Vivian Azure	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:50:00 - [289] Originally by: ElvenLord Originally by: Vivian Azure Maybe I should say farewell and spend my time for my own interests instead of contributing to the alliance, when I read what you're saying. I'm not saying you should stop contributing, no one should. I sure never did, no matter how hard it was at times. I just found a way to get more ppl involved in things I do so we all contribute to both corp/alliance and have time to do our own interests. Balance is the key. Balance? So it's OK, that I spend 2-3 hours a day with industrial tasks, just so you can make another fail attempt to kick eJoke out of CR?
Tangonis Galt Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:50:00 - [290] Originally by: The Mittani people with no 0.0 alliance management experience talking out their buttes about what is or is not a reasonable cost. It's OK. We know you don't have any real experience in 0.0 Alliance Management, but we don't consider your opinions any less valid. .

Kraken Kill Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:54:00 - [291] This is a terrible Idea. Its discouraging Those with space to take more space and its making those in space with fewer highends unable to pay for the upgrades needed to compete in the most rudimentory ways with established alliances. FLAGs should have no Fee. If someone wants to claim Space why should it cost 20mil a day? Stupid bloody isk sink if pos fuel wasnt enough we now have to be accountants and make sure we have alliance members ratting hard enough. Make Flags not require any fees at the very least. concord can shove a pinapple up thier ********s, why should they have anything to do with 0.0 sov maintainace? If corps or alliances want to experiance 0.0 they can go play factional warfare or shape up to be worth a damn and join or become a decent alliance to exsist in 0.0. Or they can become a Pet of an alliance - and perhaps if they are of good enough standard if they pull their own they can become a partner rather than a pet. crappy crappy idea. Punishing success and rewarding the weak- although the weak wont be able to afford any Sov in 0.0.
Alyra Logitus Big Guns Inc. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:55:00 - [292] Originally by: Navick I mean, cmon, when Goons start quoting Bobby Atlas out of agreement then something has to be very, very wrong. I honestly never ever thought I would ever agree with a goon, much less many goons, but there's no denying it.
Togae Alus Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:57:00 - [293] well i hope that the guy that did that xls sheet was drunk when he typesd the prices as for keeping a secure 6 pocket constellation will cost 11 billion isk a mont so that is 2 and a half titans per year or 6 moms so please reconsider
Pringlescan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:57:00 - [294] Also nice job posting this late on a friday so we get to stew through the weekend before you realize like with the titan gun changes that you really messed up and fix it.
niroshido Caldari Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:00:00 - [295] 20m/day for the sov claiming unit 20m * 7days = 140m ISK /week 10m/day for the infrastructure hub, 10m 7days = 70m ISK/week 25m/day for cyno jammer, 25m 7days = 175m ISK/week ______________________________ Total ISK cost = 385m ISK/ week per system this excludes JB's. Lets take into account that CCP's original aim was not to make 0.0 a true carebear land where everyone plays for free, which was the case with R64 pos operations. What the system now does is, scales down the zone of operations for an alliance, opening large areas of zero sov space. A 100 player alliance will be pushed from a 20 solar system wide to about 5 systems, which is good, to a degree. The system costs can be covered by 24hrs of rat hunting (if 100% taxed), if 1 person was ratting they could generate a revenue of 20m isk +/hr 23hrs = 460m /day 7 = 3.2b/week. The hubs cost from 50m ISK to 500, so first upgrade = 50m (upfront investment) and 500m for the final upgrade, these are single payments per level, meaning u wont be charged on a daily basis. Hidden belts upgrade: Some tend not to look at these, but as the dominion hits people will start looking for revenue and a good source of revenue comes from the alliance or inter-corperate market, where members will always be in need of mods, ammo, ships. Miners will have to sell there minerals to producers and will supply the alliance market. You are looking at one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level. So at lvl 5 u are getting 5 hidden belts garenteed. Anomolies: I personally never seen any reason to do them, but at lvl 5 you get a total of 10 garenteed anomolies. Only if the anomolies offer enough will they be done. But 10 anomolies can cater for 10 ppl at about 10m ISK/hr DED complexes: This can be a good source of revenue, but is dependant on the DED lvl, the overseers price will drop, but the bounties should provide a decent revenue. The upgrade suggests to me that the chances will double every level, so probably an 8/10 daily = 100m ISK daily, hopefully there is something in place to pop them up more often. Survey Networks: To be honest, i dont think this is profitable at all. You probably could get a T2 bpc out of it but, meh!. Quantum Flux Generator: More T3 ships for the alliance/corps Given the system they are putting in place, i could maintain a single system easily, where i generate around 210m ISK weekly at a rate of 3hrs rat hunting daily. That would cover the infrastructure upgrade and sov module.
Stevens Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:02:00 - [296] Originally by: Pringlescan Also nice job posting this late on a friday so we get to stew through the weekend before you realize like with the titan gun changes that you really messed up and fix it. They do that so they can read over it on the weekend and instead of having to admit they screwed up they can just be like LOLTYPO/WEEKEND and try to play off being clinically ******ed.
Clavius XIV Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:02:00 - [297] Originally by: rubico1337 you know. there are these things called moons. generally they are semi-lucrative even after dominion. maybe that isk could go to pay sov bills rather than pay for huge cap fleets and megalomaniac directors? just a thought... You know you don't need sov to hold those things called moons right? In fact with the 10% fuel bonus you need something like 50 towers in one system for the sov bonus to be worth it fuelwise. It would make much more sense at a 50% fuel bonus (10 towers to break even, or even a 71% fuel bonus (7 towers to break even).
adriaans Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:06:00 - [298] Originally by: niroshido 20m/day for the sov claiming unit 20m * 7days = 140m ISK /week 10m/day for the infrastructure hub, 10m 7days = 70m ISK/week 25m/day for cyno jammer, 25m 7days = 175m ISK/week ______________________________ Total ISK cost = 385m ISK/ week per system this excludes JB's. Lets take into account that CCP's original aim was not to make 0.0 a true carebear land where everyone plays for free, which was the case with R64 pos operations. What the system now does is, scales down the zone of operations for an alliance, opening large areas of zero sov space. A 100 player alliance will be pushed from a 20 solar system wide to about 5 systems, which is good, to a degree. The system costs can be covered by 24hrs of rat hunting (if 100% taxed), if 1 person was ratting they could generate a revenue of 20m isk +/hr 23hrs = 460m /day 7 = 3.2b/week. The hubs cost from 50m ISK to 500, so first upgrade = 50m (upfront investment) and 500m for the final upgrade, these are single payments per level, meaning u wont be charged on a daily basis. Hidden belts upgrade: Some tend not to look at these, but as the dominion hits people will start looking for revenue and a good source of revenue comes from the alliance or inter-corperate market, where members will always be in need of mods, ammo, ships. Miners will have to sell there minerals to producers and will supply the alliance market. You are looking at one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level. So at lvl 5 u are getting 5 hidden belts garenteed. Anomolies: I personally never seen any reason to do them, but at lvl 5 you get a total of 10 garenteed anomolies. Only if the anomolies offer enough will they be done. But 10 anomolies can cater for 10 ppl at about 10m ISK/hr DED complexes: This can be a good source of revenue, but is dependant on the DED lvl, the overseers price will drop, but the bounties should provide a decent revenue. The upgrade suggests to me that the chances will double every level, so probably an 8/10 daily = 100m ISK daily, hopefully there is something in place to pop them up more often. Survey Networks: To be honest, i dont think this is profitable at all. You probably could get a T2 bpc out of it but, meh!. Quantum Flux Generator: More T3 ships for the alliance/corps Given the system they are putting in place, i could maintain a single system easily, where i generate around 210m ISK weekly at a rate of 3hrs rat hunting daily. That would cover the infrastructure upgrade and sov module. and now, where to you get isk and time to pvp with.. you know, fun stuff... i'd rather not grind for HOURS A DAY just to bloody hold the system, thats not counting all the other costs, like ships for defence etc. for my alliance it is much more viable to simply ninja in and out as it pleases us and/or grind missions in high sec for funding of pvp.... -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr! Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail. QFT!
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:06:00 - [299] Originally by: Alice Celadon 3. The market goes batpoo insane. As Trit falls off a freaking cliff in comparison to ISK value, BS manufacture/insurance/self-destruct becomes the de-facto method for making ISK. you must not have been to jita recently
Oku Kee'lus Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:07:00 - [300] I can't believe this expansion is going to fall flat on it's face because CCP can't get a grip of the code in their own game. The single most defining reason for most of 0.0 being a barren wasteland is truesec. Most systems are so crappy ISK wise, that you can't even rent them out. CCP, you were on the right track. In order to free up 0.0 for new and smaller alliances, current alliances need to be concentrated, the proposed costs are fine and can help accomplish that, but only if the solar systems are able to support it, and none of those resource upgrades will facilitate that. Exploration sites and DED plexes? Yeah, those are fine, if we were talking about current solar system population were only a few people share a system, but 50-100 people? That's simply not going to work out. If the resource upgrades are implemented like you present them here, solar systems aren't going to support anywhere near enough people to jusity those SOV and Infrastructure costs, and if you lower the costs to compensate, you won't free up any space for new players in 0.0. Conclusion? Yes, we know your agent, trusec, or whatever code is old and probably undocumented. We know in order to support 50k concurrent users your DB is probably a ***** when it comes to changing stuff like this, but unless you invest the time in fixing it, you might as well scrap Dominion and keep things as they are. If you don't all those man hours will be wasted shuffling around a bunch of stuff that wont result in anything but status quo.

Kushmir GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:09:00 - [301] This must be an April Fools joke in November. Anyways this is just going to make bad space even worse, which I guess will cause fights over the few pockets of space that will actually be worth paying for. Hopefully this isn't the full story and just part of the overall 0.0 changes that CCP is working on.
Etrange Phi	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:14:00 - [302] Originally by: Vivian Azure So it's OK, that I spend 2-3 hours a day with industrial tasks, just so you can make another fail attempt to kick eJoke out of CR? Just because you are miserable doesn't mean it's a good idea to make every one else miserable as well.
Spuzum	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:16:00 - [303] Hey, I have an idea instead of Dominion. Why not just reset sov in all systems to zero. =)
Choon Tolus Rage For Order Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:19:00 - [304] Originally by: Alyra Logitus Originally by: Navick I mean, cmon, when Goons start quoting Bobby Atlas out of agreement then something has to be very, very wrong. I honestly never ever thought I would ever agree with a goon, much less many goons, but there's no denying it. You're telling me. We just got out of a war with 'em and I find myself on their side of an issue. Usually I'd disagree on principle, but this is just too much suck to ignore. I'd post how i think it can be improved, but many people have already done so. I'm shocked... and disappointed. CCP always did admirable (if sometimes flawed) work in the past. CCP: If youall really want to follow your vaunted "Excelence" theme or whatever, get up, HTFU, make something that feels like some effort was put into it, and get back to us. Otherwise I'll go play Dragon Age for a few months and wait for Star Wars: The Old Republic to come out. Or just go join all the other MMOers i work with on WoW (shudder). I'm no Altruist...
EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:21:00 - [305] The easiest of many things you need to do to fix this is to move virtually all the sov upkeep costs to the infrastructure hub, as the price for sov without a hub will never ever be worth it.
Deldrac Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:21:00 - [306] There are a lot of empire people ITT saying 'huh, couple of billion a month, what's the big deal?' NOTE TO HIGHSEC PLAYERS : IN 0.0 WE DON'T HAVE AGENTS ****ING ISK ALL OVER US FOR COMPLETING ENDLESS TRIVIALLY EASY ZERO RISK MISSIONS. PLEASE STFU. Seriously, I really don't don't how CCP are expecting people to fund a 0.0 nerf when 0.0 is already poor as hell. It is a mystery.
Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:22:00 - [307] has anyone really asked WHY there is a direct isk bill? ... i mean, who is charging you the rent of the sov hub and wtf does s/he have to do with ruling anything in non-npc sov space? .
niroshido Caldari Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:23:00 - [308] Originally by: adriaans Originally by: niroshido BLA and now, where to you get isk and time to pvp with.. you know, fun stuff... i'd rather not grind for HOURS A DAY just to bloody hold the system, thats not counting all the other costs, like ships for defence etc. for my alliance it is much more viable to simply ninja in and out as it pleases us and/or grind missions in high sec for funding of pvp.... So you are saying, that you specifically will have to keep sov all by yourself, cause i thought owning sov was an alliance thing, but sov declared for the alliance on a corperate lvl. I mentioned the total costs for maintaining a single system. at around 370m per week, 5 members ratting for 3 hrs at a rate of 20m ISK an hr 7 days a week would 2.1b ISK per week at a corperate tax rate of 10%, 210m ISK in tax is made per week from 5 members operating at that figure with 10 members, i think u get the idea. My corp operates at a 10% tax rate, every day i make the isk i need and still can afford ships to go out and pvp with
Scud Maximillion	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:30:00 - [309] Originally by: Equinox Daedalus Edited by: Equinox Daedalus on 06/11/2009 22:32:22 Well going off these figures, 1 system with sov, infrastructure hub, cyno jammer and jumpbridges will cost over 2 bil / month CVA alone has the most outposts per region, so i'd figure just for outposts alone thats probally 35+ bil isk a month CCP, you can't really be serious. We go from fighting for something we own to paying for something we own, paying ridiclous amounts of isk, atleast from my general point of view. What incentive is it to actually keep our space anymore? you say you want to use CVA as an example, but, you actually seem to want to destroy what we have built. You should of left us disbanded, because your doing a real good job of what most other alliances haven't been able to do. Where is this Mythical isk influx going to come from, to keep providence up and running? We'd be better off moving back to empire. How is 1 or 2 explorions going to INCREASE supstantally the isk generation. Tragic really. I think the whole point is for you not to be able to keep your space. Bravo CCP. This changes has long been needed.
Thorir Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:30:00 - [310] So what should large space holding alliances do? Surely, not try conquering more space or invade someone - they would get punished. Shrink, carebear, camp jita 4-4 and then wait to be invaded by 'smaller entities'. I can't wait - to go back to empire.

Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:32:00 - [311] Originally by: Kanatta Jing Before you emo quit I'm going to do the unthinkable. Best guesses are that Technetium is the new Dysprosium and will make about as much per moon. Now you can wage a horrible brutal war for a few months while waiting for the T2 production chain to be finally fixed and for the system upgrades to be buffed sufficiently. In the mean time I can has your space right? stealth geminate boost right here and yes, i think everyone with a functioning pulse has their eyes on techn moons
Tangonis Galt Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:32:00 - [312] Originally by: Deldrac There are a lot of empire people ITT saying 'huh, couple of billion a month, what's the big deal?' NOTE TO HIGHSEC PLAYERS : IN 0.0 WE DON'T HAVE AGENTS ****ING ISK ALL OVER US FOR COMPLETING ENDLESS TRIVIALLY EASY ZERO RISK MISSIONS. PLEASE STFU. Seriously, I really don't don't how CCP are expecting people to fund a 0.0 nerf when 0.0 is already poor as hell. It is a mystery. R64's, Officer spawns, ABC ores, 10/10 complexes, access to class 5 and 6 WH space, R64's again...oh yeah 0.0 has no way to earn ISK. Good thing no one actually uses those R64's for anything, right ? 1/10 for another poor Troll attempt. .
Vavrin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:36:00 - [313] Haha, well i guess I will continue to run lvl4s in my alt while my main sites in 0.0 waiting for a fight.
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:38:00 - [314] Originally by: rubico1337 you know. there are these things called moons. generally they are semi-lucrative even after dominion. maybe that isk could go to pay sov bills rather than pay for huge cap fleets and megalomaniac directors? just a thought... yes instead of spending isk on ships and blowing them up, lets farm isk for ccp so we can have our name in the corner. aside from jump bridges, whats the benefit to sov again?
Balcor Mirage	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:39:00 - [315] Ok... the theory of the cost is based on the equivalent of running 5 large towers. But the problem is this: If the towers are not used for sovereignty only, there's no savings. True, the new sov marker replaces the necessity for throwing up and maintaining towers in a far flung 0.0 empire, but does nothing for savings on systems that are already being effectively leveraged by alliances. Thus, the new system is once again designed to favor the large, widespread alliances who do not use their space. I thought the new system was to deter unused space?!?
Killljoy	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:40:00 - [316] So I have to pay 900 mil a month for the chance to scan down stuff. What the hell. If its an upgrade it should just be there. This isn't a fix just a big ISK sink.
Deldrac Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:42:00 - [317] Originally by: Tangonis Galt Originally by: Deldrac There are a lot of empire people ITT saying 'huh, couple of billion a month, what's the big deal?' NOTE TO HIGHSEC PLAYERS : IN 0.0 WE DON'T HAVE AGENTS **ING ISK ALL OVER US FOR COMPLETING ENDLESS TRIVIALLY EASY ZERO RISK MISSIONS. PLEASE STFU. Seriously, I really don't don't how CCP are expecting people to fund a 0.0 nerf when 0.0 is already poor as hell. It is a mystery. R64's, Officer spawns, ABC ores, 10/10 complexes, access to class 5 and 6 WH space, R64's again...oh yeah 0.0 has no way to earn ISK. Good thing no one actually uses those R64's for anything, right ? 1/10 for another poor Troll attempt. . Empty quoting people who have no idea how rare all those things except ore are, and no idea how many accounts you have to run to equal level 4 empire income from asteroid mining, and no idea how hard r64s just got nerfed, and no idea how the whole point of moving to 0.0 is to earn money by defending space from other people not to shoot frigging rats. Yeah, 50-100 people running 10/10s, shooting officers, and WHing to class 5/6 every day. Jesus **ing christ.
Loco Eve State War Academy	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:46:00 - [318] Edited by: Loco Eve on 07/11/2009 03:54:50 that's a very high lease to pay for a system that you conquered. why should you have to pay such a stupid fee for something you basically own? edit: forgot this is CCP attempt to sell more plexs to EVERYONE! so they can afford to get thier own space. CCP you fail hard and we can see right through you.
Gimmickname Goonface	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:46:00 - [319] Originally by: Pringlescan Also nice job posting this late on a friday so we get to stew through the weekend before you realize like with the titan gun changes that you really messed up and fix it. This is payback for the threadnoughts.
Niding Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:48:00 - [320] Originally by: Deldrac Originally by: Tangonis Galt Originally by: Deldrac There are a lot of empire people ITT saying 'huh, couple of billion a month, what's the big deal?' NOTE TO HIGHSEC PLAYERS : IN 0.0 WE DON'T HAVE AGENTS **ING ISK ALL OVER US FOR COMPLETING ENDLESS TRIVIALLY EASY ZERO RISK MISSIONS. PLEASE STFU. Seriously, I really don't don't how CCP are expecting people to fund a 0.0 nerf when 0.0 is already poor as hell. It is a mystery. R64's, Officer spawns, ABC ores, 10/10 complexes, access to class 5 and 6 WH space, R64's again...oh yeah 0.0 has no way to earn ISK. Good thing no one actually uses those R64's for anything, right ? 1/10 for another poor Troll attempt. . Empty quoting people who have no idea how rare all those things except ore are, and no idea how many accounts you have to run to equal level 4 empire income from asteroid mining, and no idea how hard r64s just got nerfed, and no idea how the whole point of moving to 0.0 is to earn money by defending space from other people not to shoot frigging rats. Yeah, 50-100 people running 10/10s, shooting officers, and WHing to class 5/6 every day. Jesus **ing christ. AND for arguments sake; lets say there are more 10/10 plexes, 5/6 WH space access etc. More yield from these resources means Jita/the market will be flooded by modules that in the past where rare. What happens with the price of these modules? Price crash, which will nullify the "promised" boost thru upgrades.

toxicvega F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:49:00 - [321] This has got to be the most **ing **ed idea ever to come out of **ing any game designer. Welcome to SWG MKII. Looks like Perpetuum is going to be the new eve as no one in 0.0 will be able to accomplish anything other than grind to maintain SOV.
Tangonis Galt Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:52:00 - [322] Originally by: Deldrac the whole point of moving to 0.0 is to earn money by defending space from other people not to shoot frigging rats. Where did you EVER get a wrong idea like that from ? No wonder the upcoming change scares you. When you actually live in 0.0 and learn to make ISK there, you won't be so worried. .
d4shing	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:55:00 - [323] So I looked at some #s on DOTLAN and here's what I came up with: Total # of Sov-Claimable Systems: 2192 # held by 10 largest alliances: 1194, or 54% Total # of Sov-holding alliances: 82 Total # of toons in these alliances: 69,234 Total # of toons in the largest 10 alliances: 23,220, or 33% Average # of alliance members per system: 103 But, in the 10 largest alliances, they have an average of 20 people per system. So, in response to those people complaining that they'll never cram 100 people into a system, realize that the average sov-holding alliance already does. It seems pretty obvious to me that devs can't be married to any numbers. They put these up to make current holders think long and hard about what their best systems are, and which ones they don't really care about. The proper equilibrium, though, will be one where there are a number of systems that nobody cares enough to claim and pay for sovereignty in. The current equilibrium is that sov is way too cheap, every square inch of eve is spoken for, and it's inefficiently allocated. Relatedly, the current mechanism for redistributing it (POS warfare) sucks. To succeed, they have to price sov such that a large number of holders with a large number of systems decide that they only want 1/2 as much space, give or take. If they initially price it too low, and that doesn't happen, they'll just have to raise it over time. I'm not a community manager or anything, but I bet they'd prefer to take a rip-off-the-bandaid approach, rather than deal with new rounds of whiny posts every time they ratchet up sov price to attain the desired equilibrium. If half the space is unclaimed after a few weeks, then they can slowly lower the price to rejoicing internet posts. The upgrades do look kinda crappy, though. The goon who posted about how their crappiness reflects underlying problems with the game (arch/hack sites aren't worth much, mining outside of empire has a poor risk/reward tradeoff, etc.) is spot on, imo. Hopefully those can be improved, but everyone should realize that a price for sov that doesn't make everyone scream is sure to be too cheap.
Killljoy	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:57:00 - [324] So CCPs cure for large sprawling alliance is not to make SOV based of ocupancey or anything like that. Its just making it cost to much. Your all ******ed stop smoking weed.
Da Maddness Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:58:00 - [325] This idea is stupid! Auto payment system is great but the rest is just crap. if you want more people to experience 0.0 then open up more 0.0 areas of space with no choke points and some valueable minerals to make it worth it. Don't make 0.0 ****!
Securitas Protector Stealthfield Ihatalo Cartel Navy	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:58:00 - [326] CCP: The cost is fair, but you need to boost the ISK-making ability in a system a lot for it to be so. I'd love to see costs like this with huge rewards. Make plexes spawn quickly, make denser roids, whatever you have to do, but increase the incentive as well as the price. I am a member of one of the small alliances ready to move into 0.0 come dominion. -sec Proud to be shaych
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:59:00 - [327] Ok, lets have a though about this. lets say I decide to rat in UEPO, a systems with decent sec and 7 belts. This system can support 1 ratter after a few ours of chaining, to give ccp the benefit of the doubt, lets just assume it comes with hot spawns. I've been playing this game forever and have pretty much maxes out skills, i can do about 15 mil in bounties and 20 mil in loots in an hour, that means this system will, if fully ratted 24/7, with bring in 360 mil a day (10 bil/month), and lets say a billion a month from a standard moon allocation. Noone mines because there is no refinery and mining is **** anyways (you get more minerals npcing per character). system costs 2 bil to maintain, the added anomalies are crap and won't get used as is. so in a month, assuming 23/7 belt useage, and a standard ~20% tax, you break even. Of course you will still be running almost as many towers as before for the 3-4 moons you are mining in system and 2 jump bridges and a cynogen/jammer (as now, there will be overlap) So a station system will cost about 3 billion a month to maintain, and bring in about 3 bil in income to pay for it. As far as i can tell thee is really no incentive for good fights, roaming is still lame because there is nothing to increase payer concentration, and there is no incentive for an alliance to turtle op as intended (instead, noone will tick sov on lol), players will spread out more, and a barebones jump bridge/cyno network will connect it all. On top of it, we will need to spend even more time fueling since we lose fuel bonuses. ccp needs to ask itself, what is the point of even claiming sov? what exactly are the benefits? the losses are pretty clear? Why should we not claim more territory?
Damzan	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:02:00 - [328] Originally by: Bobby Atlas CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ****ed. Lets rehash a few things - Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm )... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads. - Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income. - Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a **ed and convoluted concept. - Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother. - Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ****ed and exceedingly unbalanced. .... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster f-u-c-k, well done CCP. I couldnt have said this any better.
Vadinho GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:03:00 - [329] Originally by: d4shing So, in response to those people complaining that they'll never cram 100 people into a system, realize that the average sov-holding alliance already does. dont discount how many of those people are afk at a pos or in station our capitol system of NOL can easily have over a hundred people in it during peak but almost all of them are in station managing market orders, waiting for an op to start or just spinnng ship
Zastrow GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:05:00 - [330] Every single 0.0 dweller in this thread is saying this is a bad idea. There is literally not a single person who thinks this is a good idea. There are some people trolling the 0.0 dwellers but no real debate. After this dev blog, is there a SINGLE NEW ALLIANCE, just ONE, ANY NEW ALLIANCES who have read this blog and decided to move from empire to 0.0? ANYONE? ANYONE AT ALL? Nullsec is now JUST. NOT. WORTH. IT. Balance the risk:reward. Look at the Cost:Benefit. There are HUGE COSTS in both time and effort for living in 0.0 and just not a single ****ing tangible benefit to make it worth your time. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

Panzram GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:07:00 - [331] problem: people aren't eating this plate full of poop solution: a bigger plate of more expensive poop
Deldrac Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:08:00 - [332] Originally by: d4shing So I looked at some #s on DOTLAN and here's what I came up with: Total # of Sov-Claimable Systems: 2192 # held by 10 largest alliances: 1194, or 54% Total # of Sov-holding alliances: 82 Total # of toons in these alliances: 69,234 Total # of toons in the largest 10 alliances: 23,220, or 33% Average # of alliance members per system: 103 But, in the 10 largest alliances, they have an average of 20 people per system. Hey highsec guy. Guess what, small alliances typically have more than half their member-rolls inactive, large alliances probably hit around 20% inactive, but are more active cutting people because of counter-intel requirements. Also, a large proportion of these characters are alts sitting in Empire because you can't support significant war activity from the resources in 0.0 unless you are dedicated moon goo expert sucking resources out of several systems at once just to support your own towers and ships, but that profession is certainly not going to support more than a handful of people per constellation. In other words, what you just said makes no sense. Come to 0.0 and try to rat in a market hub with 60 in local if you disagree.
Twisted Mechanic	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:10:00 - [333] Ohh and BTW nice of you all to thou CVA under the bus. Why would you even need a "territorial clam unit" when you got a damn OUTPOST!!!! Shouldn't that tell everyone your claiming this space by owning an OUTPOST!!!!
Trent Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:11:00 - [334] Edited by: Trent Nichols on 07/11/2009 04:12:34 Dominion is a idea in theory: More isk in the hands of individual players less for the few who control the alliance, less alliance sprawl and therefore more room for newcomers to 0.0 etc... The implementation is insanity: The benefits of holding sov and upgrading space do not come anywhere near justifying the cost - not even close! A fully upgraded system is supposed to support over 100 players? The Devs must be smoking some strong stuff. Since the costs do not scale with systems owned or the expanse of space they control, there is still nothing to prevent alliances from grabbing choice moons all over the galaxy. Combine this development with the high cost of sov and you will see smaller alliances still unable to enter 0.0 because the high ends are still held and now, without that income, they cannot even afford to claim sov. To fix it properly: Give 0.0 space in general a large income boost, faster spawns and bigger asteroids to start with. Any upgrades should increase the potential isk in a system by at least 30% per level. Make upkeep costs start out reasonable but cost per system should scale with total systems owned and/or the expanse of owned space. At least some materials for T2 production should be obtainable from sources other than moons. I'm thinking special roids in exploration sites for starters. Colonies and Capitals
MIRKINZ Caldari DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:12:00 - [335] Edited by: MIRKINZ on 07/11/2009 04:14:49 Originally by: Securitas Protector CCP: The cost is fair, but you need to boost the ISK-making ability in a system a lot for it to be so. I'd love to see costs like this with huge rewards. Make plexes spawn quickly, make denser roids, whatever you have to do, but increase the incentive as well as the price. I am a member of one of the small alliances ready to move into 0.0 come dominion. -sec But thats kinda the point! The more of them there are, the less they are worth. So if all the alliances out there are working 10/10 plexes, that means everyone is going to have officer loot to sell and the market will be flooded. If you wanted to kill what makes this game so fantastic then you are going to do so with this patch. Name any other game where 3000 people come together to fight for thier home. You think its easy to jsut slam all these people together and say "Go here and protect our homeland!". No! A huge amount of effort goes into Maintence/Diplomacy/Governing and some people are very good at it! SO when CCP says "You know what? All that effort and hardwork is pointless, you should just disband and make a 100man alliance with one system, that way everyone can enjoy it." Enjoy ****ing what? I play this game for the huge fights and the fleet combat, the 0.0 polictics and the real world aspects of this game. You want to "own" your own little chunk of space, go to low sec and claim it as your own. Don't make all the large alliances that have put so much effort into their existence go broke. CCP we are calling you out!! 14b a month for a JB network to Empire? Rediculous!
Zastrow GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:15:00 - [336] Originally by: Zastrow Every single 0.0 dweller in this thread is saying this is a bad idea. There is literally not a single person who thinks this is a good idea. There are some people trolling the 0.0 dwellers but no real debate. After this dev blog, is there a SINGLE NEW ALLIANCE, just ONE, ANY NEW ALLIANCES who have read this blog and decided to move from empire to 0.0? ANYONE? ANYONE AT ALL? Nullsec is now JUST. NOT. WORTH. IT. Balance the risk:reward. Look at the Cost:Benefit. There are HUGE COSTS in both time and effort for living in 0.0 and just not a single ****ing tangible benefit to make it worth your time. nobody reads the last post on a page Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
ep1k Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:18:00 - [337] Level 4's are better. Either make the 0.0 isk gain far more or its simply not worth it. Unless you change this very simple problem anything you do wont amount a damn thing. Whatever changes you plan just ask yourself, "am i better off running level 4's" then you will know if it is a stupid idea or not.
Killljoy	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:19:00 - [338] Originally by: ep1k Level 4's are better. Either make the 0.0 isk gain far more or its simply not worth it. Unless you change this very simple problem anything you do wont amount a damn thing. Whatever changes you plan just ask yourself, "am i better off running level 4's" then you will know if it is a stupid idea or not. Agreed
Alexander Knott Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:20:00 - [339] Maybe CCP's plan is to get all 0.0 alliances to cram themselves into pirate sov 0.0 and run L4 missions?
m3rb3aSt Minmatar Advanced Component Research Enterprise GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:20:00 - [340] FIX ANOMOLIES!!! They are pretty useless. If you want to fix them... 1. Make them have regular old belt rats. 2. Make them send continuous waves of 4 BS 4 random support ships OVER AND OVER! 3. Make these waves get tougher and tougher. 4. Have these spawn all over the place! There you just fixed them!

marxist revolutionary	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:20:00 - [341] anyone who lives in 0.0 and rats instead of having an empire mission running alt has been gimping themselves, looks like this will continue to be the case
Smurphy1 Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:22:00 - [342] Wow CCP do you guys play your game? There are 100s of better upgrades out there and 0 worse ones. If you can't implement better upgrades because of flaws in your code you need to either scrap or delay this expansion. If there is any 0.0 dweller or Empire alliance that wants to move to 0.0 and is in favor of these changes speak now.
Deja Thoris Invicta. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:27:00 - [343] Looks pretty **** to be honest. I'm very underwhelmed. I'm not sure how you expect to get the promised numbers crammed into a system with those naff upgrades. The costs do leave something to be desired too since a lot of the stuff you propose comes from activities that will circumvent corp taxes.
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:29:00 - [344] This Expansion had three promises that made me look forward to it. Alliances holding less space, Sov being less of a pain in the ass and strongly encouraging "Carebearing" as an alliance income instead of passive ressources. So far i cant see any of these points being done. Alliances may have sov in less systems, but much like before poses were introduced, alliances will still control regions easily. Not having sov in a system isnt going to stop me curbstomping a newcommer alliances that has setup shop in a remote corner 2 regions away from the 10 systems i have sov in, because i move my caps there which takes me 15minutes and bridge 200 subcaps there as well while im at it. Point is, while sov is made more expensive, empty space is still as unaccessible as it has been before and it is still as easy to control vast space for single alliances. Part of that is because much of the "sov" system in dominion depends on Structure Hp rather then timers. Ie. numbers are still king and a 100 man dread fleet can clear a region in one hour while a 5man dread fleet would grows beards instead. The 100men dreadfleets number benefit should simply be that it can wipe out smaller fleets, but not take sov faster then those - This would enable smaller alliances to wage war against similar sized alliances without exposing dreadfleets long enough for half of eve to come by, but also take bites out of bigger alliances, should those not be there. Last part is the alliance and alliance member isk making - the current moon mining is skewed and as you outlined, alliances only needing moons and nothing else as isk source makes most industrial players a liability in 0.0 Bummer that the solutions brought up so far arent doing a thing to change this, moon income is still going to be number 1 if sisi stays the same. The system upgrades will nowhere near support the numbers suggested for making isk in one system, nor do i see any reason to bring more carebears into an alliance after dominion then before. -
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:31:00 - [345] Whoever came up with these numbers should be fired because they are totally INSANE. Exclamation. Underline. Bold. One one one one!!! First off, you are assuming that the new payment system will replace fueling 5 large pos right now to hold sov. This is not the case. Almost nobody puts up extra towers to do nothing but claim sov. You have one to run a cyno jammer, one or two to run a jump bridge, and the rest do moon mining and reacting. None of these are going away in the new system. Secondly, you come up with a figure of over 2 billion isk a month for the upgrades to give us what we have now? 5 large pos only cost 600 mil a month to fuel, and of course, you can mine most of the fuel yourself locally rather than pay straight isk. Then as others have said, none of these upgrades seem to be adding near the amount of income potential that you have hinted at, let alone enough to pay the exorbitant costs of sov. And what is this some people keep saying about a base of 3 anomalies per system right now? If I can 20 systems I might find 2 anomalies total. I can be the only person ratting in a system for hours and keep scanning while ratting and never see one.
Cheekything Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:33:00 - [346] This is just the rise of the Commi alliances and the whines of the rest. Awesome :D
Solock Caldari Rage For Order Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:33:00 - [347] Just finished reading all 12 pages of that thread. i'm now despressed. I don't see a single positive about this. When you have goons agreeing with atlas agreeing with CVA agreeing with RAWR agreeing with sys-k agreeing with ... we all cant be wrong
Bobby Atlas Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:37:00 - [348] Edited by: Bobby Atlas on 07/11/2009 04:37:39 Originally by: d4shing So I looked at some #s on DOTLAN and here's what I came up with: Total # of Sov-Claimable Systems: 2192 # held by 10 largest alliances: 1194, or 54% Total # of Sov-holding alliances: 82 Total # of toons in these alliances: 69,234 Total # of toons in the largest 10 alliances: 23,220, or 33% Average # of alliance members per system: 103 But, in the 10 largest alliances, they have an average of 20 people per system. So, in response to those people complaining that they'll never cram 100 people into a system, realize that the average sov-holding alliance already does. It seems pretty obvious to me that devs can't be married to any numbers. They put these up to make current holders think long and hard about what their best systems are, and which ones they don't really care about. The proper equilibrium, though, will be one where there are a number of systems that nobody cares enough to claim and pay for sovereignty in. The current equilibrium is that sov is way too cheap, every square inch of eve is spoken for, and it's inefficiently allocated. Relatedly, the current mechanism for redistributing it (POS warfare) sucks. To succeed, they have to price sov such that a large number of holders with a large number of systems decide that they only want 1/2 as much space, give or take. If they initially price it too low, and that doesn't happen, they'll just have to raise it over time. I'm not a community manager or anything, but I bet they'd prefer to take a rip-off-the-bandaid approach, rather than deal with new rounds of whiny posts every time they ratchet up sov price to attain the desired equilibrium. If half the space is unclaimed after a few weeks, then they can slowly lower the price to rejoicing internet posts. The upgrades do look kinda crappy, though. The goon who posted about how their crappiness reflects underlying problems with the game (arch/hack sites aren't worth much, mining outside of empire has a poor risk/reward tradeoff, etc.) is spot on, imo. Hopefully those can be improved, but everyone should realize that a price for sov that doesn't make everyone scream is sure to be too cheap. You are wrong on so many levels, those 500 man alliances with 5 systems do not have 100 people online at a time or ever, there max participation at peak hours are usually 20-30 , 50 if you are lucky and the number of those who actually rat/mine/plex in 0.0 for income is a fraction of. Further, vast majority of the numbers in most alliances are comprised of inactive's and alts of various types such as cyno, market, inde, capital etc... So even an alliance such as ATLAS with say 2600 members - in reality you only got about 45-50% of that (if you are lucky) who are living and breathing people and a high percentage of those individuals earn income through methods outside of 0.0 (empire mission alts, npc space mission alts [i.e: stain]). I have been playing this game for over half a decade, once upon a time it was a niche idea to come out to 0.0 to make money but people quickly learned and it has long been the case - that you do not go to 0.0 to make money. This is something dominion was supposed to fix, sadly the reality is as disappointing as it was when I first ventured into 0.0 many years ago. Finally, if you think any current system can sustain 100 people in it you are out to lunch, please point me to this solar system in 0.0 cause I have yet to find one. Likewise with dominion, from indications so far, it will fail to achieve anything near that level of player density relative to profit in any system either.
marxist revolutionary	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:37:00 - [349] Originally by: Solock Just finished reading all 12 pages of that thread. i'm now despressed. I don't see a single positive about this. When you have goons agreeing with atlas agreeing with CVA agreeing with RAWR agreeing with sys-k agreeing with ... we all cant be wrong IT alliance pets teh ~pilots of honoure~ of aeturnus alliance disagree!
Smurphy1 Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:42:00 - [350] These changes clearly show that either A. No one who works at CCP actually plays EVE in 0.0 or B. That little clip about quality or excellence at Fanfest was a load of crap. Or both. The reason I know this: Either you don't understand the current state of your game(Read this thread its not to hard to figure out the current state) or you passed on all the worthwhile upgrades cause it would be too hard to add to the code. So if you really are practicing Excellence then take the time to do this right or don't do it at all.

Togae Alus Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:46:00 - [351] we need this dominion fixed if not you will losse players as we dont want to spend endless hours grinding for isk
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:46:00 - [352] Originally by: The Mittani WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Zastrow GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:48:00 - [353] Edited by: Zastrow on 07/11/2009 04:49:59 I know there's people at CCP reading this thread and thinking "Oh there's always people ***ing on the forums, they'll get over it"... Realize you've taken all the excitement and buzz about Dominion and with a single devblog turned it into disappointment and rejection. This sov change isn't something we'll get over, because it's not in the best interests of the game. You've added a great disincentive to sprawling space empires but without an incentive to do the extra work, nobody's going to bother. You gave us the cost of sov, now give us a real benefit. Originally by:** rubico1337 Originally by: The Mittani WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH this is the same reaction everyone is having, and for good reason. now contribute to the thread or stop ****ing posting Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
toxicvega F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:53:00 - [354] So lets say that you really have 75K active subs... I assume there are more but can't and don't have the time to look them up. Thats something in the range of more than a million USD per month that you rake in. A million a month and this is the bull** we pay you for. Last time I check I was the consumer and YOU are the producer. I/We counting 12 or so pages in the last couple hours of people telling you your plan and Ideas are horrible. No wonder you droped it on a friday evening. You knew it was crap and are too damned lazy to do anything about it. A million dollars a month and your programmers and content designers are nothing but total fail. How about you produce something worth paying for. I.E. not this **.
Zimi Vlasic F.R.E.E. Explorer	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:54:00 - [355] You CCP pieces of garbage better refund the almost $300 I just ****ed away in account renewal after you drop this turd on us. What a goddamn waste of money ------------------ Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:58:00 - [356] Originally by: ElvenLord On the other hand, if you are a smaller empire alliance with a desire to go live in 0.0 you dont even have those moons. All you can hope for as starter capital is your members donations, and that can take you to a point. If space you take can not support both you as a member and you as a corporation/alliance then its not worth taking it and paying for it. with current t2 production i woudl agree. but with the re-balancing of components there will be several different type of moons that give a decent profit, rather than one or two making insane ammnts of isk. smaller alliances will be able to capitalize on these less rare moons
Avoida	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:02:00 - [357] Increased costs aside for the moment, current alliance territories will contract and (I'm betting) large areas of 0.0 will suddenly appear unclaimed...but that does not mean anybody will be able to claim those systems. Alliances will quickly adopt the "if we can't have it, nobody can" mentality and will easily dispatch any attempts by smaller entities to stake their claim. Existing territory holders will merely continue to utilize the now unclaimed space but forgo the claim marker. Nothing will change basically. You might even see an alliance anchoring GSCs near gates to act as an unofficial claim markers to let anybody thinking of attempting to stake a claim will get sent back to Empire via their medical clone.
Diaxess Curses Mom	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:04:00 - [358] Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: ElvenLord On the other hand, if you are a smaller empire alliance with a desire to go live in 0.0 you dont even have those moons. All you can hope for as starter capital is your members donations, and that can take you to a point. If space you take can not support both you as a member and you as a corporation/alliance then its not worth taking it and paying for it. with current t2 production i woudl agree. but with the re-balancing of components there will be several different type of moons that give a decent profit, rather than one or two making insane ammnts of isk. smaller alliances will be able to capitalize on these less rare moons Where? In say a region that AAA or Goons or RZR lives in. They may not have sov in but half the systems but I promise you no one else is going to either. Just because it doesn't have my alliance as sov, damned sure doesn't mean I will let anyone else have it. If I can't have no one can, and I am sure any other region holding alliance think the same thing.
Mskpath3	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:06:00 - [359] Originally by: rubico1337 . smaller alliances will be able to capitalize on these less rare moons No, they won't because the big alliances are still going to be there. They're just going to end up not claiming sov in many systems. They will simply maintain military presence without the sov. Small alliances will get curbstomped all the same. Actually, I'm making the prediction now : Someone is going to make a 3rd party virtual sov calculation tool that reports sov via tower count or something else that approximates the current system. Ingame sov be damned.
Lucas Tigh United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:07:00 - [360] Edited by: Lucas Tigh on 07/11/2009 05:09:12 Originally by: Bobby Atlas CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ****ed. Lets rehash a few things - Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm )... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads. - Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income. - Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a **ed and convoluted concept. - Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother. - Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ****ed and exceedingly unbalanced. .... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster f-u-c-k, well done CCP. ITT a bunch of Bobby Atlas's enemies empty quote him. ------------------------------------- CCP, make me a winner. I win.

Alice Teal	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:08:00 - [361] This is a terrible travesty, and I hope the other small alliances who want to hang out in 0.0 realize how badly we've just been screwed. (From your posts, it doesn't seem like you do). Let's paint the picture: 1.The Goons and AAA and Atlas and NC, after they stop pointing out how stupid this is, will consolidate to a few sov systems per region. These will get strategic upgrades only. They no longer have to hold constellations to build supercaps...and can retake stations when necessary (easier than POS war anyway). 2.Great! I'm a small alliance with a carebear and pvp base and 5 billion to spare! Let's move into Delve! I anchor my FLAG in C3N-3S and somehow manage to quickly take the outpost. C3N has a lot of gates to run away in case of blobs, has decent but not great sec, so Goonies have almost abandoned it, and I like the scenery. I await the Goonswarm response...nothing. I pay about 1 billion for the first 2 weeks and start the upgrade process, and my alliance mates and I start ratting and mining and having a jolly time. 3. 2 weeks have passed. I've upgraded the poo out of C3N. I just paid the bill for the next 2 weeks! I even expanded to another system, LWX. Maybe I can build an outpost there someday! Suddenly I get a convo invite. It's the Mittani, diplomat for the goons. The Mittani: Hey little carebear/pvp alliance. I see you moved into some Delve space we hadn't claimed. Jolly Leader: Oh yeah, it's nice that we can all benefit from 0.0 now!!! :):):) Mitt: Yeah, that's nice. Look, you're going to start paying us 5 billion a month. I know you just paid the next 2 weeks rent and have spent 4 billion and all that activity time on upgrading your space -- you can't really afford to run away from that sort of an investment. This isn't negotiable. I'll have you sov jammed within the hour and wiped out in 24 hours with a fleet of 300 unless my wallet goes blinky very soon. Blowing up your stuff would be super lulzy, and make my goonies happy, so unless you're making my sov costs easier to bear, you're gone. Jolly Leader: Oh. Let's summarize. Your alliance mates and you haven't been making any more money the last two weeks than you did in empire. In fact, you discover that you've been making a lot less dodging roaming gangs and finding good sites and rat spawns. Your cash reserves have dwindled. You don't even have 5 billion anymore. If this were POS warfare, you could have quickly taken an entire constellation and maybe cynojammed and fortified...but that's simply not going to happen without 50 billion to pay all the rental and upgrade costs. The 2 week rental intervals let bigger guys hit you when you're weakest financially. When your upgrades and FLAG get taken/exploded you lose a LOT. 0.0 seemed fun and adventurous before...but now you're only left asking WHY THE HELL DID I EVEN MOVE HERE?
Toman Torax Rage For Order Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:08:00 - [362] Good God where to even begin... 12 pages of this so far, guaranteed to be far far more as the weekend rolls on, and save for a small handful of players who clearly don't live in 0.0 or are obviously delusional, the reaction is clear and virtually unanimous. Dominion, with the changes proposed in this blog, WILL NOT WORK - for ALL of the reasons mentioned REPEATEDLY in this ever growing thread. When I sit here and find myself agreeing with Bobby, Goonies, et al, something is seriously wrong. The upgrades are not good enough to sustain your vaunted "50 to 100 people per system". No way, no how - for the reasons pointed out numerous times in this thread. CCP, I beg you, don't do this - not like this, at least. Many many people have posted in this thread, have been playing the game a good long time, and know this game pretty well. These people pay your salaries. Ask yourselves this one question: Why are THIS many people having an almost unanimously BAD reaction to these changes? Rethink this. Postpone it if you have to. But CERTAINLY don't roll out Dominion with those changes in that blog.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:10:00 - [363] Originally by: Zastrow this is the same reaction everyone is having, and for good reason. now contribute to the thread or stop **ing posting contribute? i love how goons are ting all over this thread. screaming down things that you see as a threat. Originally by:** The Mittani more words go here about how this is dumb and how we're going to have to bring out the pr flak cannons gg goons... gg
mechtech Entropy Industries	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:12:00 - [364] Disappointed in the upgrades. We need cool, unique upgrades. Maybe unlocking special agents, special belts, opening a special story, ect ect. When new players come to eve and whine about no "content" this is what they mean. To be honest, I'd like to see some more unique touches to this decidedly barren universe (WH space is nice), and Dominion/upgrades was a great opportunity to spice things up a bit. Unfortunately we have some really uninspired upgrades in front of us as things stand.
Vadinho GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:14:00 - [365] Edited by: Vadinho on 07/11/2009 05:14:33 Originally by: Avoida Increased costs aside for the moment, current alliance territories will contract and (I'm betting) large areas of 0.0 will suddenly appear unclaimed...but that does not mean anybody will be able to claim those systems. Alliances will quickly adopt the "if we can't have it, nobody can" mentality and will easily dispatch any attempts by smaller entities to stake their claim. Existing territory holders will merely continue to utilize the now unclaimed space but forgo the claim marker. Nothing will change basically. You might even see an alliance anchoring GSCs near gates to act as an unofficial claim markers to let anybody thinking of attempting to stake a claim will get sent back to Empire via their medical clone. realistically this is what is going to happen instead of paying a billion isk per system per month fee so they can see their name on the map, most alliances are just going to not take sov in systems that arent absolutely vital for jump bridges or cyno jammers. nobody is going to want to conquer space because theres no incentive to and 0.0 combat will devolve into lowsec style turf wars with the occasional station ping-pong great game youve got here ccp
Zareph Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:14:00 - [366] Pirate Magnets - Increases rat bounties at 25% per level, up to 125% Ore Prospecting Array - spawns hidden asteroid belts that have unique ores, these refine into unique minerals. Add these minerals to all types of blueprints Entrapment - system now has the chance to spawn pirate capital ships. Chance to drop named/faction capital modules Survey Networks - datacores, t2 salvage/blueprints now only drop from profession sites Quantum Flux Generator - This one is pretty good,. While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers.
penifSMASH GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:15:00 - [367] This is terrible. Does CCP play its own game or listen to the CSMs or any player feedback? No one ever runs anomalies or profession sites because they're worthless and you're better off ratting in belts, which is the most obvious part of 0.0 life that needs a buff. There's no reason for Empire corps to test the waters in 0.0 and there's no reason for current 0.0 sov holding alliances to not just move to NPC 0.0 space. On the other hand, CCP has managed to get nearly all 0.0 sov-holding entities, despite their historical or territorial disputes, to unite and agree on something.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience New Eden Hardware Emporium	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:15:00 - [368] Again I am sad to say my belief that being in 0.0 will lead to tears, drama and an empty wallet has been proven again. I am sad because the closest people I talk to in game was actually looking forward to trying to carve out a piece of this 0.0 action for themselves and from this dev blog alone - well I'm not really looking forward to finding out if they've read it or not. I wish CCP would decide what the 'end-game' in Eve actually is. Having been able to do level 4 missions solo in order to cover the costs of the corp while building stuff, and of course getting the tax income in all this while based in Empire means that to me having been there a few times 0.0 is for those people that thrive on ego, arguments and uber large and expensive fleet combat. Oh if you don't mind setting the alarm for ridiculous o'clock either it also helps. So come on CCP you can tweak the numbers all you want, until you realise what you want 0.0 to be you're just keeping it dumbed down for everyone who has ever worked their butt off to get the outposts, the towers, the networks, the logistics not to mention the diplomacy and the brown-nosing, while still having to go back to empire to fill up their wallet for the next round of madness. As a long time player, I was really hoping this patch would see 0.0 be viable again for everyone willing to put in some time and effort. Now it's a tax on top of the hot-dropped dread fleet. I'm going to drag my feet telling the guys about this dev-blog. Eve-online Industrial Organiser thread full batch manufacturing
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:15:00 - [369] You know, looking through the thread everyone is freaking out about 2bil/month/system, but, did everyone actually stop and think that maybe, just maybe, CCP intends the cynojammer cost to be prohibitive: you won't have bridges everywhere and real most of the cost people are complaining about comes from putting down jammers. Honestly, 30mil/system is pretty darn reasonable if even 10 people are using that system for an hour a day each if there aren't that many red roaming gangs around (so they can actually use it for that hour). Its really only the desire to keep everything jammed that makes the numbers seem insane.
Mskpath3	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:17:00 - [370] Originally by: Alice Teal Let's paint the picture: Your picture is overcomplicated. Carebear alliance stealth anchors some stuff in unclaimed Delve space. Whether you declare sov or not, you will be reported in <= 2 days, and you will have a lolfleet at your door in <= 3.

rand0mch1ck	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:18:00 - [371] Great.... NPC's online. Just what i wanted to do in an MMO shoot NPC's all effing day. I never wanted to PVP anyways. On the bright side i wont have to pay for the Cyno Jam upgrade in any sytems cuz no ones gonna have time to have fights any more.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:20:00 - [372] Originally by: Mskpath3 Originally by: rubico1337 . smaller alliances will be able to capitalize on these less rare moons No, they won't because the big alliances are still going to be there. They're just going to end up not claiming sov in many systems. They will simply maintain military presence without the sov. Small alliances will get curbstomped all the same. how would you propose letting smaller alliances into 0.0 then? there is no real way to make up for numbers. if you allow tons of defensive upgrades at low cost to protect the small allaicnes you have the cynojammed naptrain that doesnt allow any non-established alliance in. if you hypothetically allow no defensive upgrades then you have what you are describing. main thing i see as a step in the right direction is the high cost of jump bridges. if you want a jumpbrige chain you better damn well know it will be worth it. and be careful planning it out. this will effectively make space bigger, less jumpbridges mean youll actually have to use stargates occasionally. which will restrict the area of influence of the bigger allainces
Alice Teal	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:20:00 - [373] Originally by: Mskpath3 Originally by: Alice Teal Let's paint the picture: Your picture is overcomplicated. Carebear alliance stealth anchors some stuff in unclaimed Delve space. Whether you declare sov or not, you will be reported in <= 2 days, and you will have a lolfleet at your door in <= 3. I know. I was trying to point out to the few people who think these changes will allow them to move into 0.0 how delusional they're being. They must be thinking "oh, it won't be a big deal to throw down a few FLAGs," so I'm trying to help them understand why that won't matter.
John MacCoy Amarr Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:20:00 - [374] I think we need to change the name of the game to Accounting and Realestate Online. No way in hell is this going to make small alliances come out to 0.0, especially if the larger alliances are gonna have trouble paying it. Cut the cost to at least 25% and then we'll talk. --------------- It's a Trap!
Mskpath3	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:24:00 - [375] Originally by: rubico1337 how would you propose letting smaller alliances into 0.0 then? there is no real way to make up for numbers. You answered your own question. There literally is no substitute for numbers and effort. Maybe people who live in empire think 0.0 alliance are all just a bunch of mouth-breathing pirates. But the logistics and management of running a full-sized 0.0 alliance are astounding. And the dedication required to defend it equally so. All the mechanics in the world that aren't flat out "you can't shoot people in 0.0" are going to change that, ever. Anything your happy happy carebear alliance (and by you, I'm speaking in generalities) is going to, and already IS being done way better, at way bigger scale by the big boys in 0.0. Until you become better at everything, you will lose. 0.0 is pure egalitarianism. Everyone has an equal chance. You want to get in? Make a play for it. Happens all the time.
Kambo AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:29:00 - [376] Edited by: Kambo on 07/11/2009 05:34:25 Simple fact is... that's bad. Combat sites need to to be improved alot if you want a system to cover for the sov costs AND pay the bills for pilots using it. and dont screw up the drone lands have mercy. We dont got bounties and well no DED plexes aswell as mag sites. I'm in full support of dismising/changing/postponing the expansion if that dev blog holds your true intentions of the SOV change. EDIT > A good prespective to start looking at 0.0 is that it is a PVP arena and not as much as cash grining. Most ppl go out in lawless space to have fun blowing other ppl's ships up, not mindlesly grining belt rats to get the infrastructure up. The less time we have to spend ratting in a belt the more we can go out and either contest eachothers sov or go hulk fishin. There's hardly anything more fun then 2 hostile roaming gangs meating crossing their paths in the depths of 0.0. Chasing a ratter who instandly warps off to a safe spot and cloaks is not really fun
penifSMASH GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:30:00 - [377] Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: ElvenLord On the other hand, if you are a smaller empire alliance with a desire to go live in 0.0 you dont even have those moons. All you can hope for as starter capital is your members donations, and that can take you to a point. If space you take can not support both you as a member and you as a corporation/alliance then its not worth taking it and paying for it. with current t2 production i woudl agree. but with the re-balancing of components there will be several different type of moons that give a decent profit, rather than one or two making insane ammnts of isk. smaller alliances will be able to capitalize on these less rare moons Is this a troll or are you serious? Do you really think large alliances won't just take those moons, regardless of who has sov in the system? As an example, Solar Fleet, an alliance in the ass-end of the Drone Regions, has r64 moons on the other side of the map in Aridia. And that won't change after Dominion.
hathgarrr	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:31:00 - [378] Well CCP you sure do not know how to disappoint the pessimist inside of me Just in case you need a definition.. (you seem to have the perpetual need to have everything explained to you) Pessimism, from the Latin pessimus (worst), is a state of mind which negatively colors the perception of life, especially with regard to future events. Value judgments may vary dramatically between individuals, even when judgments of fact are undisputed. The most common example of this phenomenon is the "Is the glass half empty or half full?" situation. The degree in which situations like these are evaluated as something good or something bad can be described in terms of one's optimism or pessimism respectively. Throughout history, the pessimistic disposition has had effects on all major areas of thinking.[1] It is going to be interesting to see what excuse's you come up with this time around.. Google Eve online Scandle for some highlights. You promised certain things.. If this Dev blog is any indication at all of your plans then you have FAILED to come up with what you have promised. IE your in breach of contract. Not only a written contract (blog posts,forums posts) but verbal (statements made at Fan fest).. Now i can see making alliances fork out good isk for sov.. (even though it makes no bloody sense.. You OWN the system why the hell do you need to pay for the privilege ?) .. But that aside 0.0 has NEVER been a place to actually make isk.. Not for 99.999% of the people who are flying around in expensive ships blowing each other up. 0.0 Never has been able to compete on a isk/risk reward basis with high sec.. You promised that with these changes it would.. Once again CCP has reaffirmed the basic principle of life.. People are stupid. Congrats CCP
Ryixezu Amarr Big Shadows Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:33:00 - [379] A couple of months ago I got some of my RL-friends to try EVE. The first thing I told them after introducing them to the game in general was that an alt really makes your life easier. The main reason, I told them, is because your sources of income in lowsec and 0.0 isn't stellar and may end up getting disrupted at any time. If that happens it's a godsend to have a character in highsec running L4-missions. After reading this devblog, I will continue to give the same advice to new players and our alts will still run missions in highsec.
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:33:00 - [380] ok, lets do some math... Claim hub 20m a day industrial hub 10m a day lets add... super cap 1m a day cyno gen 4m a day jump bridge 12.5m a day cyno jammer 25m a day. now not all systems will be cyno jammed, or have a jb or a cyno gen, or make super caps. But for arguments sake we will have all. ok, now for a non faction DS pos your are paying (based on jita prices): Enriched uranium: (4 units and hour X 24 hours X 30 days) @ 5300 = 26.8m isk (rounded up) Oxygen: (25 x 24 x 30) 1800 x 109 = 2m isk a month Mech parts: (5 x 24 x 30) 3600 x 620 = 2.3m coolant: (8 x 24 x 30) 5760 x 1090 = 6.3m robotics: (1 x 24 x 30) 720 x 6875 = 5m isotopes: (450 x 24 x 30) 324000 x 350 113.4m ozone: (150 x 24 x 30) 108000 x 250 = 27m water: (150 x 24 x30) 108000 x 23 = 2.5m total: 185m isk a month in fuel Now the standard is 5 DS's for a system. or im assuming, at least for stations its 5. so... 925m isk a month. Now we add in the jammer pos, and a brdige pos so 2 more 1.2b So technically the increase is not that much. And with prices fluctuating, well.. basicly it looks to be about the price of having 14 faction sov benifites pos'. It really is not that undo able. But yea it should be less cost.

Clavius XIV Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:34:00 - [381] Originally by: rubico1337 how would you propose letting smaller alliances into 0.0 then? there is no real way to make up for numbers. if you allow tons of defensive upgrades at low cost to protect the small allaicnes you have the cynojammed naptrain that doesnt allow any non-established alliance in. if you hypothetically allow no defensive upgrades then you have what you are describing. The way you do it is by allowing a single system if populated return the same sort of isk you see in level 4 mission hubs. There would then be no point in expanding beyond the space you could keep worked with your local population. (Not to mention that scanning things down is a pain, now multiply that as many people are scanning multiple signatures in the same system which may already be in use...) You are better off just "claiming" more systems without Sov and use existing income streams rather than paying for these upgrades. Quote: this will effectively make space bigger, less jumpbridges mean youll actually have to use stargates occasionally. which will restrict the area of influence of the bigger allainces Less cynodampers which are even more expensive mean that it will all be about jumpdrive range. Say hello to more jump portaled hotdrops... so much for using stargates.
Alice Teal	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:35:00 - [382] Originally by: Mskpath3 ... Not quite, it is possible for CCP to allow small but well organized alliances into 0.0 in three easy steps. 1. Actually increase resource density with upgrades. More belts, better/more roids, etc. (Stop being lazy hacks.) 2. Keep cost of sovving a system very high to prevent abuse of the next point which is... 3. Allow not only cynojamming, but also "gate capship jamming" (gates jammed, caps can't go through, all else can). As long as the small (more than a hundred though, mmkay?) alliance gets all its members to train up T1 geddons and phoons and domis, they should be fine under the coming changes. When a big guy comes to curbstomp them they only need to break the sov jamming at one point during a 24 hr cycle.
Deldrac Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:37:00 - [383] Originally by: Bobby Atlas CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ****ed. Lets rehash a few things - Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm )... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads. - Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income. - Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a **ed and convoluted concept. - Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother. - Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ****ed and exceedingly unbalanced. .... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster f-u-c-k, well done CCP. This needs to be empty quoted on every page. Damn, it's like the affront to common sense that is :atlas: holding space is completely turned on it's head by one good post.
Kralin Ignatov Gallente Mentis Fidelis	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:37:00 - [384] Edited by: Kralin Ignatov on 07/11/2009 05:43:04 the upgrades are way to weak also, i find scanning, although profitable, to be really annoying. To be clear, stop being p*y's and actually make upgrades worth a damn. these upgrades do little more then grow the wallet of the 4-5 people that end up running the spawned plexes. They do not make it possible to get 50+ people to make money there. This is due to the finite nature of plexes, where they only supplement a set amount of isk. this make the alliance wallet not grow at all, and mostly *es a lot of people off, because the upgraded plex system has already been ran with this option, crap regions are still crap to hold, because enough income cannot be generated. True sec upgrading, on the other hand, would make it available for multiple people to enjoy the upgrades while benefiting the alliance's wallet in a exponential fashion. with this option, crap regions are no longer crap to hold essentially these current upgrades are limited in scope to only a few people and not worth it to the alliance to upgrade. Yes i am mad, mostly because i was looking forward to this patch, and now its dissapointing ______________________ There once was a killboard for BoB, then there was no BoB. - killboard.net*
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:39:00 - [385] Edited by: Mahke on 07/11/2009 05:40:47 Originally by: DaReaper now not all systems will be cyno jammed, or have a jb or a cyno gen, or make super caps. But for arguments sake we will have all. This. This is the flaw in reasoning that makes the price look so bad. Most systems are probably meant to have sov, hub, and thats it. Everything else, you gotta think about it and weigh whether or not its really worth it. edit: not saying the benefits couldn't use a bit of a tune up. Just that all the tears are perhaps over the top. edit: fake edit: Please tell me the extra exploration sites won't spawn after downtime, , would suck for everyone who can't play then.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:45:00 - [386] Originally by: Mskpath3 Edited by: Mskpath3 on 07/11/2009 05:26:11 Originally by: rubico1337 how would you propose letting smaller alliances into 0.0 then? there is no real way to make up for numbers. You answered your own question. There literally is no substitute for numbers and effort. yes, it was a rhetorical device. there shouldnt be a substitute for numbers or effort. Originally by: Mskpath3 Maybe people who live in empire think 0.0 alliance are all just a bunch of mouth-breathing pirates. But the logistics and management of running a full-sized 0.0 alliance are astounding. And the dedication required to defend it equally so. All the mechanics in the world that aren't flat out "you can't shoot people in 0.0" are going to change that, ever. Anything your happy happy carebear alliance (and by you, I'm speaking in generalities) dont think that becuase you(im speaking in generalities) are in a big alliance in 0.0 that your somehow entitled or better than everyone else,a dn that somehow eveyone who thinks differently is a cearbear for the record, come out to wormhole space without your instant all-knowing intel tool that is local, and with out your huge blobs to hide behind(speaking in generalities here). ill show you a good time Originally by: Mskpath3 0.0 is pure egalitarianism. Everyone has an equal chance. You want to get in? Make a play for it. Happens all the time. no it isnt. vast swaths of 0.0 are controlled by deathstar spamming, cynojamming. jumpportal generating alliances that do so jsut because it costs pennies in POS fuel and it makes thier e-peens bigger. this the powers that be stay the powers that be
Mskpath3	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:47:00 - [387] Originally by: Alice Teal As long as the small (more than a hundred though, mmkay?) alliance gets all its members to train up T1 geddons and phoons and domis, they should be fine under the coming changes. When a big guy comes to curbstomp them they only need to break the sov jamming at one point during a 24 hr cycle. I will break it to you gently : you're on crack :) If you have a 100 man alliance, a.) 10-20 of them will be online on average, b.) since this is some new endeavor for you, they will have no combat experience and be reluctant to take losses so getting x's will be hard, and most importantly c.) they are going to get massacred by even just the for-lulz 30 man roaming hac fleets, let alone the inevitable 100+ man CTA battleship fleet that will show up within a day or two if you show -any- potential for giving kills. Fighting, constantly, is your only option. If you dock and hide, your in-space assets will be popped and your members will be sad. I'd say it'll take < 1 week for a "major" effort by randoms. But in most cases, if any of them succeed, they would have succeeded before Dominion anyways.
Clavius XIV Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:48:00 - [388] Originally by: DaReaper ok, lets do some math... A few things to take into account: You are neglecting to calculate fuel bonus (which will be reduced) DS can double as Jammer or JB. Thus even if you assume 5 DS as a basline for current sov holding, it doesn't balloon to 7-8 DS with bridges/jammer. More realistically unless a system is under active assault, 3 DS (1 jammer 2 JB) are maintained and most other POS have some industrial function to offset their fuel costs. Come Dominion 3 DS will still be required, so even if you had 5 DS per system, you would still need to maintain 3, and will have a saving of 2 DS in the best case. The main reason to have numbers of DS now is because if you do not, someone can drop 5 of their own and contest sov at the next DT, which really only matters in station systems. Except come Dominion sov has no impact on station vulnerability.
Normin Bates	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:49:00 - [389] More bloated Alliance tears! Keep 'em coming! Please CCP....Don't let the tears from these Alliances with hundreds of unused systems sway your objective. Let them see what they can make of it and then adjust...if needed. If they rage-quit then so be it. Wahhhhh, we can't keep our 57 systems that we never use! Too funny!
Korodan Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:51:00 - [390] Edited by: Korodan on 07/11/2009 05:52:36 Edited by: Korodan on 07/11/2009 05:51:45 Originally by: Normin Bates More bloated Alliance tears! Keep 'em coming! Please CCP....Don't let the tears from these Alliances with hundreds of unused systems sway your objective. Let them see what they can make of it and then adjust...if needed. If they rage-quit then so be it. Wahhhhh, we can't keep our 57 systems that we never use! Too funny! 1/10, too obvious. Work on your trolling son. edit: the smilies are what really give it away, use less next time. edit again: post with your main.

Ex Mudder Gallente Oberon Incorporated	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:52:00 - [391] What a load of horse****, CCP. Plonk 3x cancelled accounts Enjoy
Mskpath3	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:54:00 - [392] Originally by: rubico1337 dont think that because you(im speaking in generalities) are in a big alliance in 0.0 that your somehow entitled or better than everyone else, a dont that somehow everyone who thinks differently is a carebear My friend, it is YOU who is talking about entitlement. I am saying, 0.0 alliances that manage huge logistics chains and mount massive defensive operations don't spring out of holes in the ground. They come from individual effort and dedication. Nothing is handed to you. You go out and get it. What I was implying was that empire people seem to think that the vast tracts of 0.0 were just magicked into the hands of neanderthal pvpers. Otherwise, they would surely be in your worthy and smart hands, right? Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: Mskpath3 0.0 is pure egalitarianism. Everyone has an equal chance. You want to get in? Make a play for it. Happens all the time. no it isnt. vast swaths of 0.0 are controlled by deathstar spamming, cynojamming. jumpportal generating alliances that do so just because it costs pennies in POS fuel and it makes their e-peens bigger. this the powers that be stay the powers that be because the defender has an advantage. not because of "numbers and effort" Yes, it surely is. YOU can do these things, too. Egalitarianism doesn't mean "forced fairness", like Affirmative Action. It means "fair" in which all parties involved operate under exactly the same rule set, with exactly the same available skills and oppurtunities. You can go build a BS/dread fleet and take some space. You can go the diplomatic route and get a foot in the door as a renter or pet, then prove yourself and get elevated to be a real space-holder. Just like all the others have done. But what you want is a mechanism that allows you to do this without putting in the mountain of effort. And in any mechanic where effort prevails, big/dedicated/organized is always going to annihilate small/idealistic/naive.
hathgarrr	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:56:00 - [393] Originally by: rubico1337 no it isnt. vast swaths of 0.0 are controlled by deathstar spamming, cynojamming. jumpportal generating alliances that do so jsut because it costs pennies in POS fuel and it makes thier e-peens bigger. this the powers that be stay the powers that be your pretty clueless... Think about this.. you have a 5000 man corp/alliance right? you have to defend that so you spread out to give yourself a buffer zone. You also need to provide this 5000 man corp/alliance area to be able to rat/mine etc.. you seriously think that even if only 1/4 of them are online or active at any one time can support themselves in just a few systems? Most systems in 0.0 can hardly handle 1 person ratting at any one time ..let alone mining (even if it was worth it) 3-4 people can completely strip mine a system in a few hour or a day or two. So in the end run you say it is because of Epeen size.. The truth of the matter is for security and the fact that 0.0 sucks so hard for making isk the larger the corp/alliance the more area they are FORCED to take. It shure would be nice if 50-100 people could make a living in just one system.. (Like L4 mish runner systems) But to have that happen CCP would have to make some big changes.. Oh wait.. they already promised that and seem to be cascade failing.
Hoodat Bee	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:56:00 - [394] A smaller alliance probably wouldn't need an advanced logistics network (12.5mil) because, after all, who the hell are they gonna link jump bridges to? I also really doubt they'll need a cyno jammer (25mil) because they won't be worth taking out. Then there's the cyno navigation system (4mil) which gives you a cyno generator -- valuable for a group that has a ton of caps moving in and out, but for a small alliance unnecessary. And supercapital construction facilities (1mil)? If you don't want to/can't build supercaps, you don't need to set it up. So much for the strategic upgrades for the little guys. That leaves you with the infrastructure hub (10mil) which has some value. Maybe not 300mil a month, but that'd be pretty easy to assess. So if you're a small alliance, you'd only need to cover the cost of a territorial claim unit -- 600mil a month. That's more than reasonable.
Deldrac Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:56:00 - [395] Originally by: Korodan Edited by: Korodan on 07/11/2009 05:52:36 Edited by: Korodan on 07/11/2009 05:51:45 Originally by: Normin Bates More bloated Alliance tears! Keep 'em coming! Please CCP....Don't let the tears from these Alliances with hundreds of unused systems sway your objective. Let them see what they can make of it and then adjust...if needed. If they rage-quit then so be it. Wahhhhh, we can't keep our 57 systems that we never use! Too funny! 1/10, too obvious. Work on your trolling son. edit: the smilies are what really give it away, use less next time. edit again: post with your main. Smilies are discrete, you use fewer not less. The post you quote is still a terrible post ofc.
Alice Teal	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:58:00 - [396] Originally by: Mskpath3 If you have a 100 man alliance, a.) 10-20 of them will be online on average, b.) since this is some new endeavor for you, they will have no combat experience and be reluctant to take losses so getting x's will be hard, and most importantly c.) they are going to get massacred by even just the for-lulz 30 man roaming hac fleets, let alone the inevitable 100+ man CTA battleship fleet that will show up within a day or two if you show -any- potential for giving kills. Yeah, tbh when I wrote that I was thinking (not less than 200-300, mmkay?), but I didn't want to be accused of proposing a "not small" alliance. I agree with everything else in your post, except the part about popping assets. I think the point of Dominion was supposed to be to link a significant increase in resource density to sov to a system...so that what your alliance is fighting for is their awesome rats/kickass ores...and whereas before the burden of sitting around was on the defender, now it's on the attacker. You'll have to camp your sov jammers for 24hrs to make sure they don't get blown by the defenders.
Bobby Atlas Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:00:00 - [397] Originally by: DaReaper ok, lets do some math... Claim hub 20m a day industrial hub 10m a day lets add... super cap 1m a day cyno gen 4m a day jump bridge 12.5m a day cyno jammer 25m a day. now not all systems will be cyno jammed, or have a jb or a cyno gen, or make super caps. But for arguments sake we will have all. ok, now for a non faction DS pos your are paying (based on jita prices): Enriched uranium: (4 units and hour X 24 hours X 30 days) @ 5300 = 26.8m isk (rounded up) Oxygen: (25 x 24 x 30) 1800 x 109 = 2m isk a month Mech parts: (5 x 24 x 30) 3600 x 620 = 2.3m coolant: (8 x 24 x 30) 5760 x 1090 = 6.3m robotics: (1 x 24 x 30) 720 x 6875 = 5m isotopes: (450 x 24 x 30) 324000 x 350 113.4m ozone: (150 x 24 x 30) 108000 x 250 = 27m water: (150 x 24 x30) 108000 x 23 = 2.5m total: 185m isk a month in fuel Now the standard is 5 DS's for a system. or im assuming, at least for stations its 5. so... 925m isk a month. Now we add in the jammer pos, and a brdige pos so 2 more 1.2b So technically the increase is not that much. And with prices fluctuating, well.. basicly it looks to be about the price of having 14 faction sov benifites pos'. It really is not that undo able. But yea it should be less cost. The majority of space holding alliances do not have 10 or 14 towers let alone faction towers, per system. In today's eve outside of a major conflict zone, most alliances have 5 or fewer towers in an outpost system, as for non-outpost systems these are often claimed on a corporation level with personal small/medium towers for other purposes such as a corporation or corporation member ratting/plexing/mining niche. These personal/corporation towers attribute most of the claim sprawl by major alliances, which are not actually a direct goal of the alliance itself just a natural state of settlement over time for said niche personal/corporation uses.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:03:00 - [398] Originally by: Mskpath3 Yes, it surely is. YOU can do these things, too. Egalitarianism doesn't mean "forced fairness", like Affirmative Action. It means "fair" in which all parties involved operate under exactly the same rule set, with exactly the same available skills and oppurtunities. You can go build a BS/dread fleet and take some space. yes, because when trying to take systems the attacker can also jumpbridge into that system and prevent defending caps from coming in. at very little cost. just like the defenders can oh wai..
Mskpath3	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:04:00 - [399] Originally by: Alice Teal You'll have to camp your sov jammers for 24hrs to make sure they don't get blown by the defenders. True enough. But the pvp types will quite willingly do this periodically when they know they're dealing with a group of guys who will almost certainly give up after the first try because they got camped into a station/pos for 24 hours and possibly even lost an expensive ship. Rumor has it that the time to get the sov-stealer modules online has been drastically cut recently, as well. So even if you got your foot in the door, a single all-day op for an alliance can toss you out. Even if they just cleaned house on weekends, that'll be enough to discourage risk-averse carebears from really accomplishing much. There's also a bit of an X factor here. Big space holders are going to be righteously ****ed off about everything for quite some time, so expect extreme prejudice to be exercised by those trying to worm their way in :)
Deldrac Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:04:00 - [400] Originally by: Hoodat Bee So if you're a small alliance, you'd only need to cover the cost of a territorial claim unit -- 600mil a month. That's more than reasonable. The design of space means it is only really defendable by constellation - you need to be able to camp a choke point, and you need to be able to spot incoming gangs before they reach your ratting systems (plus without the upgrades what are your few hundred members going to do in a single -0.2 system producing trivial wealth compared to the empire level 4s they just left behind). So we're actually looking at a minimum 3 billion a month, plus tribute to the nearest power bloc who will otherwise be happy to give their cap fleet a workout since you can't be arsed to cyno-jam your systems, and they'll make a small but significant profit salvaging and selling your junk in the process. Hey, this is more stuff people commenting would know if they had ever lived in 0.0.

Da Maddness Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:07:00 - [401] Originally by: Bobby Atlas CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ****ed. Lets rehash a few things - Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm )... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads. - Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income. - Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a **ed and convoluted concept. - Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother. - Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ****ed and exceedingly unbalanced. .... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster f-u-c-k, well done CCP. I endorse this product and/or service
Mskpath3	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:09:00 - [402] Originally by: rubico1337 yes, because when trying to take systems the attacker can also jumpbridge into that system and prevent defending caps from coming in. at very little cost. just like the defenders can You are incredibly adroit at avoiding the very obvious point. Cheers on that. This is not an argument about tactics or offense vs. defense. This is about the high-level strategy of taking and holding space. Everyone has equal oppurtunity there, and space changes hands plenty because of it. Seriously. The existing alliances were not simply handed outposts and entire regions via sorcery. They do not change ownership right this very day because of GM intervention. Truly. You too, can do this. There's no piece of code in the Eve codebase that specifically prevents you from mounting a massive military-industrial-diplomatic effort to go throw someone out and take their sh-t.
hathgarrr	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:10:00 - [403] Originally by: Hoodat Bee A smaller alliance probably wouldn't need an advanced logistics network (12.5mil) because, after all, who the hell are they gonna link jump bridges to? I also really doubt they'll need a cyno jammer (25mil) because they won't be worth taking out. Then there's the cyno navigation system (4mil) which gives you a cyno generator -- valuable for a group that has a ton of caps moving in and out, but for a small alliance unnecessary. And supercapital construction facilities (1mil)? If you don't want to/can't build supercaps, you don't need to set it up. So much for the strategic upgrades for the little guys. That leaves you with the infrastructure hub (10mil) which has some value. Maybe not 300mil a month, but that'd be pretty easy to assess. So if you're a small alliance, you'd only need to cover the cost of a territorial claim unit -- 600mil a month. That's more than reasonable. Without Cyno jam etc frankly your small alliance/corp etc isn't going to last long in 0.0 not unless you have some really good friends and some deep pockets. I challenge any small alliance to come out and try it . Would result in some good kill mails and that small alliance quickly heading back to high sec. But kill mails are always appreciated... Then again.. without a decent defense fleet your still going to become targets for anyone larger or anyone who just wants to get into a fight. Just a note.. even if none of the huge alliances were to kick your teeth in just for the entertainment you would get targeted by hoards of pvp'rs looking for a fight.. The main problem with eve i see is too many people are blue to each other. THAT is the real problem. it means less pvp prices of mins go down hence people build less ships etc etc etc.. What this game needs is less naps and more pew pew. But how are people going to pay for such things like new ships and mods etc with these proposed changes ?
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:11:00 - [404] Okay I've read much of this thread. We are a small alliance, we previously did have 2 systems in Omist before Atlas took it. We currently hang out in Providence some when not fighting our current war. We have also been optimist about perhaps getting a system or two come Dominion. The cost next to the revenue generated by a system is far out of whack in this proposal. I agree with many that the true sec status of a system needs to be taken into account in the cost ratio. Something like this as a basic idea: (b/(1+(1 + t)))= f b=base cost t=true sec f=final cost So in this formula a true sec of -1.0 would mean that it costs as you outlay. A true sec of -.5 would cost 200 million if you just had the sov thing up and no hub. Some other suggestions: Double the number of belts in all 0.0 systems...static belts that is. No upgrade required. Then here are some suggested changes: Pirate Magnets - Doubles the number of guaranteed anomalies in the system per level + reduces by 20% per level respawn timers of belt rats. Ore Prospecting Array - Double the number of belts in a system per level. (not hidden belts just static belts). The other three are okay as they seem written, but without more belts you can't support the population levels you are seeking. If you can't do something along those lines then you need to significantly reduce costs to attract small alliances. I'd look at reducing the cost to around the fuel for 2 large towers per month. I think that would be a more attainable and attractive cost, which is only 40% of what you suggest. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. -Mitnal
Deldrac Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:12:00 - [405] Also, regarding the 'needing a 24 hour op to kill/gain sov so big alliances won't be easily able to squash little guys' issue. It is worth remembering that to take Delve, we had to trap the Bob/Kenny/Beaver/Kenny/IT cap fleet into the pr-8ca station and keep the system camped 24 hours a day for a whole month. The major alliances can do this **** because of numbers and global timezone coverage. Single timezone social alliances formed to give each other someone to talk to on lvl 4 mission grinds really cannot. How are new people getting into 0.0 again?
gambrinous	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:14:00 - [406] Originally by: Normin Bates More bloated Alliance tears! Keep 'em coming! Please CCP....Don't let the tears from these Alliances with hundreds of unused systems sway your objective. Let them see what they can make of it and then adjust...if needed. If they rage-quit then so be it. Wahhhhh, we can't keep our 57 systems that we never use! Too funny! 1. noone is crying because they won't have a ticker in all 57 sys anymore 2. the only reason they do currently is because it's required for the current sov mechanics 3. not having a sov ticker in all 57 systems will not affect control of those 57 sys 4. they are used, try exploring, you will likely visit all 57 in a night
Zastrow GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:23:00 - [407] big alliances being able to beat up small alliances is a stupid topic and not relevant to the discussion of how awful these sov changes are Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
c0rn1 Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:23:00 - [408] Edited by: c0rn1 on 07/11/2009 06:25:00 Look at all these armchair generals Sitting there in their mission ship in empire and trying to figure out 0.0. None of the people who claim the changes valid don't even have the slightest clue what kind of an logistical overhead 0.0 already creates. Some say: Oh, look, ma, it's only 7 mil / day per member in a 10 ppl system! I say: Oh look, please come along and collect those 7 mil/day from each of the 2k+ people sitting here and have that cash ready every 14 days. And since you're at it, please punish all members who don't rat at least for their 7 mil/each day. Make a "Stop" sign if people wanna group together and head out for PvP. And the next CTA will be called with the sidenote that only players will be allowed to join who already made their fair contribution to the alliance today already. And then you can take care of the fuel logistics for all towers and resupply of gear and ships and besides it on the capital production which is a time cruncher as well in 0.0. It all doesn't take any time to do. It's only the 7M / day to keep the sov up. GUYS, YOU CANT JUST PICK 1 THING OUT AND BASE AN ARGUMENT ON IT. these prices would quadruple the effort you have to do to keep 0.0 territory and noone in the large alliance can be arsed to do this. I play this game for PvP not carebearing. What is in your damn mind? The cutting down on the dysp and prom income already will cripple a good amount of income. The changes proposed by CCP won't even slightly make up for it and it is all a HUGE timesink. If I have to rat/mine 40h a month only to pay for upkeep, fuel and my little losses on ships, I will rather pack my suitcases and just move to NPC 0.0. and it's not only the ingame tools that eat up time. As if you didn't know it yet, spreadsheets don't grow on trees. Internal communication isn't something that just happens in no amount of time. It all is work, work, work. Grind through everything and as a gift of CCP I get another additional grind for BS cash? I proposed a nice system which is far more fair for it to go. => http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1210267&page=7#205 Check it. It's more fair and interesting for every alliance size as well. The formula can be tweaked easily but it gives you the raw idea what I'd rather like to see than a stupid one-sided and an absolute lack of any creativity sort of approach CCP did. cheers c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x Life's a waste of time ...
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:26:00 - [409] Originally by: d4shing So I looked at some #s on DOTLAN and here's what I came up with: Total # of Sov-Claimable Systems: 2192 # held by 10 largest alliances: 1194, or 54% Total # of Sov-holding alliances: 82 Total # of toons in these alliances: 69,234 Total # of toons in the largest 10 alliances: 23,220, or 33% Average # of alliance members per system: 103 But, in the 10 largest alliances, they have an average of 20 people per system. So, in response to those people complaining that they'll never cram 100 people into a system, realize that the average sov-holding alliance already does. It seems pretty obvious to me that devs can't be married to any numbers. They put these up to make current holders think long and hard about what their best systems are, and which ones they don't really care about. The proper equilibrium, though, will be one where there are a number of systems that nobody cares enough to claim and pay for sovereignty in. The current equilibrium is that sov is way too cheap, every square inch of eve is spoken for, and it's inefficiently allocated. Relatedly, the current mechanism for redistributing it (POS warfare) sucks. To succeed, they have to price sov such that a large number of holders with a large number of systems decide that they only want 1/2 as much space, give or take. If they initially price it too low, and that doesn't happen, they'll just have to raise it over time. I'm not a community manager or anything, but I bet they'd prefer to take a rip-off-the-bandaid approach, rather than deal with new rounds of whiny posts every time they ratchet up sov price to attain the desired equilibrium. If half the space is unclaimed after a few weeks, then they can slowly lower the price to rejoicing internet posts. The upgrades do look kinda crappy, though. The goon who posted about how their crappiness reflects underlying problems with the game (arch/hack sites aren't worth much, mining outside of empire has a poor risk/reward tradeoff, etc.) is spot on, imo. Hopefully those can be improved, but everyone should realize that a price for sov that doesn't make everyone scream is sure to be too cheap.
Korodan Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:30:00 - [410] Originally by: c0rn1 Edited by: c0rn1 on 07/11/2009 06:25:00 Look at all these armchair generals Sitting there in their mission ship in empire and trying to figure out 0.0. None of the people who claim the changes valid don't even have the slightest clue what kind of an logistical overhead 0.0 already creates. Some say: Oh, look, ma, it's only 7 mil / day per member in a 10 ppl system! I say: Oh look, please come along and collect those 7 mil/day from each of the 2k+ people sitting here and have that cash ready every 14 days. And since you're at it, please punish all members who don't rat at least for their 7 mil/each day. Make a "Stop" sign if people wanna group together and head out for PvP. And the next CTA will be called with the sidenote that only players will be allowed to join who already made their fair contribution to the alliance today already. And then you can take care of the fuel logistics for all towers and resupply of gear and ships and besides it on the capital production which is a time cruncher as well in 0.0. It all doesn't take any time to do. It's only the 7M / day to keep the sov up. GUYS, YOU CANT JUST PICK 1 THING OUT AND BASE AN ARGUMENT ON IT. these prices would quadruple the effort you have to do to keep 0.0 territory and noone in the large alliance can be arsed to do this. I play this game for PvP not carebearing. What is in your damn mind? The cutting down on the dysp and prom income already will cripple a good amount of income. The changes proposed by CCP won't even slightly make up for it and it is all a HUGE timesink. If I have to rat/mine 40h a month only to pay for upkeep, fuel and my little losses on ships, I will rather pack my suitcases and just move to NPC 0.0. and it's not only the ingame tools that eat up time. As if you didn't know it yet, spreadsheets don't grow on trees. Internal communication isn't something that just happens in no amount of time. It all is work, work, work. Grind through everything and as a gift of CCP I get another additional grind for BS cash? cheers c0rn1 Another unironically good post by a bitter enemy, emptyquoting this ****.

Cire XIII Caldari Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:32:00 - [411] Operation distribute market share by Christmas... in progress... .
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:35:00 - [412] Originally by: Bobby Atlas Edited by: Bobby Atlas on 07/11/2009 04:37:39 Originally by: d4shing Finally, if you think any current system can sustain 100 people in it you are out to lunch, please point me to this solar system in 0.0 cause I have yet to find one. Likewise with dominion, from indications so far, it will fail to achieve anything near that level of player density relative to profit in any system either. i can name some, and they all have l4 mission agents
Facepalm Amarr Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:35:00 - [413] Edited by: Facepalm on 07/11/2009 06:37:19 Hate it. Costs are way too high. Rewards suck. Plus what everyone else said here. Even if you halved costs, which is probably the plan on the books anyway ("ooh look guys, it's not as bad as you thought..." masses rejoice??), it would still be the suck. And yes, before anyone asks, I mad. Shatcan this idea and bring in the next pl0x. Set the guy who came up with this idea on fire too.
Zastrow GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:36:00 - [414] Every time I re-read this dev blog I wonder if anyone heard a word I said at the CSM summit. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
ian666 Hairy Male Strippers Club	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:38:00 - [415] Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 06:43:09 Great changes, prices are good. One last thing CCP - block usage of Jump Bridges by Freighters and Jump Freighters (besides we have enought wormholes 0.0 <=> hisec). Bring back good old player convoys and force people to do something else than solo killing rats 24/7. Make them move their own stuff by themselves more frequently - transport ships + jump bridges for better speed or freighter convoy's for corp things.
Nicolas Nye	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:38:00 - [416] Edited by: Nicolas Nye on 07/11/2009 06:40:54 Originally by: Facepalm Hate it. Costs are way too high. Rewards suck. Plus what everyone else said here. Even if you halved costs, which is probably the plan on the books anyway ("ooh look guys, it's not as bad as you thought..." masses rejoice?) And yes, before anyone asks, I mad. Shatcan this idea and bring in the next pl0x. Set the guy who came up with this idea on fire too. If you want standings for living in empire, please contact me in-game. For a mere 300mil you can be blue to everyone in Amarr and Jita and carebear to your heart's content. If you want to contract me your stuff I will even help you jump it down because I am such a nice guy like that. edit: offer is open to you too korodan. Will cost an extra 200mil because of all the anti-goon wardecs but I'll cover that second 100mil for you with my connections, so only need to send me 400mil.
Korodan Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:39:00 - [417] Originally by: Facepalm Edited by: Facepalm on 07/11/2009 06:37:19Shatcan this idea and bring in the next pl0x. Set the guy who came up with this idea on fire too. Setting him on fire would be too kind.
Kanatta Jing	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:40:00 - [418] Originally by: Graalum Originally by: Kanatta Jing Before you emo quit I'm going to do the unthinkable. Best guesses are that Technetium is the new Dysprosium and will make about as much per moon. Now you can wage a horrible brutal war for a few months while waiting for the T2 production chain to be finally fixed and for the system upgrades to be buffed sufficiently. In the mean time I can has your space right? stealth geminate boost right here and yes, i think everyone with a functioning pulse has their eyes on techn moons It would be a war with alliances as casualties. Anyway, the real sucky thing is that the upgrades are low-balled, or are being delivered pre-nerfed. 3 million bounty rats and magic ores that are 50% denser then their +10% yield cousins, is what we needed, instead we get anomaly catchers.
Zastrow GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:41:00 - [419] Originally by: ian666 Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 06:38:50 Great changes, prices are good. One last thing CCP - block usage of Jump Bridges by Freighters and Jump Freighters. Bring back good old player convoys and force people to do something else than solo killing rats 24/7. Make them move their own stuff by themselves more frequently - transport ships + jump bridges for better speed or freighter convoy's for corp things. Let's be honest here. Are you planning on living in 0.0 after reading this dev blog? If so, why? If not, why not? Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:42:00 - [420] Trying to get more new alliances into 0.0 and make it more dynamic? Not with those costs. LOL Those costs only favours the old guys with already deep pockets. But on the other hand, I like for example that the jump bridges are expensive since they are so powerful and giving a really huge advantage. It is a dilemma - making prices high enough for important things and at the same time not to boost hugely the already powerful alliances over newcommers. Time will tell how this will go. But what I didn't understand exactly - what is sov for? Is it required for those strategic upgrades? Or what use does it have (except maybe bragging rights)?

Cyriel Longinus XERCORE Cult of War	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:48:00 - [421] I am dissappointed.
ian666 Hairy Male Strippers Club	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:50:00 - [422] Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 06:52:38 Originally by: Zastrow Originally by: ian666 Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 06:38:50 Great changes, prices are good. One last thing CCP - block usage of Jump Bridges by Freighters and Jump Freighters. Bring back good old player convoys and force people to do something else than solo killing rats 24/7. Make them move their own stuff by themselves more frequently - transport ships + jump bridges for better speed or freighter convoy's for corp things. Let's be honest here. Are you planning on living in 0.0 after reading this dev blog? If so, why? If not, why not? Yes i am, live in 0.0 will be moar interesting and challenging than is now. Many good 'old fashion' activites died in every of few last minor patches, because of jump bridges, jump freighters, wormholes (fast traveling), cyno jammers, cyno generators and other stuff that make this game quite simple, easy, and soloable.
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:51:00 - [423] Originally by: ian666 Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 06:43:09 Great changes, prices are good. One last thing CCP - block usage of Jump Bridges by Freighters and Jump Freighters (besides we have enought wormholes 0.0 <=> hisec). Bring back good old player convoys and force people to do something else than solo killing rats 24/7. Make them move their own stuff by themselves more frequently - transport ships + jump bridges for better speed or freighter convoy's for corp things. just what everyone wants to do is grind more stupid **** to keep sov.
Magnum III Journey On Squad	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:54:00 - [424] Who gets the money paid? how is that, I thought 0.0 nul sec was unowned space. Are they going to be paying their 14 day bills to concord or something? I mean it sound like they are paying the God of Nul sec to have there systems upgraded, it make no sense.
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:54:00 - [425] The only thing that ****ing over jump bridges does is penalize the new players in 0.0 that don't have capitals for logistics. Yay Seleene
pi squad Scalding Pie Services	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:58:00 - [426] lmao these are ****ing horrible you guys are literally clueless
Opiboble Inte Triumvirate Maximus Kairakau	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:59:00 - [427] Ok CCP you just made it cheaper for big alliances to run, and tougher for starter alliances to get in. Need to implement a scaled cost and slash the current prices in half. So for every system you control your cost goes up by a multiplier: 1 system = 1x base 2 = 1.25x 3 = 1.50x 4 = 1.75x 5 = 2.00x 6 = 2.25x and so on... so at having 5 systems it would cost you 100mill a day or 1.4bill a fortnight. (with no upgrades)That makes it easier for start alliances to get out there, and wakes up the bigger alliances that more space isn't better. Just tossing it out there, cuss that cost system is NOT going to encourage smaller alliances to go out to 0.0 space/ bye all
Alice Teal	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:02:00 - [428] EVEO Community: Hey CCP POS warfare is teh suck we want more fun. CCP: Hai GAIS!!!! Farm anomalies to keep SOV!!!!! Kthxbai!!!!
Max Stront	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:04:00 - [429] Is this like they do in politics where they call something the opposite of what it really does? Dominion is the "0.0 Sov Freedom and Proliferation Act" but it neither frees SOV nor proliferates alliances in 0.0. Did you guys hire a political firm to come up with this?
Opiboble Inte Triumvirate Maximus Kairakau	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:05:00 - [430] Originally by: Magnum III Edited by: Magnum III on 07/11/2009 06:56:55 Who gets the money paid? how is that, I thought 0.0 nul sec was unowned space. Are they going to be paying their 14 day bills to concord or something? I mean it sound like they are paying the God of Nul sec to have there systems upgraded, it make no sense. it sounds like someone wants to make up rules all willy nilly for nul sec. agree! Makes since if you where fueling it, know it is just kinda a money sink hole... get ready for the ice market to crash big time. bye all

Zastrow GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:06:00 - [431] Originally by: ian666 Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 06:52:38 Originally by: Zastrow Originally by: ian666 Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 06:38:50 Great changes, prices are good. One last thing CCP - block usage of Jump Bridges by Freighters and Jump Freighters. Bring back good old player convoys and force people to do something else than solo killing rats 24/7. Make them move their own stuff by themselves more frequently - transport ships + jump bridges for better speed or freighter convoy's for corp things. Let's be honest here. Are you planning on living in 0.0 after reading this dev blog? If so, why? If not, why not? Yes i am, live in 0.0 will be moar interesting and challenging than is now. Many good 'old fashion' activites died in every of few last minor patches, because of jump bridges, jump freighters, wormholes (fast traveling), cyno jammers, cyno generators and other stuff that make this game quite simple, easy, and soloable. care to list some of these activities? the only possible thing I can infer from your post is ****ing with someone's tower fueling, something that dominion's isk payment system was intended to reduce. Yet, you just said these were great changes so that couldn't possibly be it, right? I'm trying real hard here to coax a reasonable argument from ANYONE as to some good parts of this dev blog, but so far nobody has delivered Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Dream Hunter	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:07:00 - [432] "Ore Prospecting Array - adds one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level to your solar system" Are the hidden asteroid sites going to be massive roids like the wormhole systems or are they going to be like the tiny baby roids found at the current gav sites?
Maeve Kell	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:09:00 - [433] Originally by: EvilweaselFinance Oh, also, all these upgrades besides the pirate magnet and ore prospecting array (which unless fixed will be unused) evade alliance taxes so you can't replace the lost r64 income. There are Alliances living without r64.. but yes.. the upgrades are useless.. better rats, more faction spawns, better moons, more belts etc is what we need :/
Inferno Styx Caldari Division of Dying Stars Solyaris Chtonium	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:10:00 - [434] personally I'd cut the numbers in half. 1.25 billion for a max pimp'd systems sounds about right to me. I don't honestly think your going to see a lot of those systems around though. Huge alliances will probably get 10-15 in the future. On the other subject about people not wanting to grind, I understand that isn't what you want to do and it's understandable. Given the current null sec environment (80% pvp characters and some indy/POS managers) it makes sense your there to pew-pew. However the point I want to make is that there are literally thousands of people out there who are willing to grind those rats and belts. The point I'm trying to make is that there are lots of ways to play the game and sometimes it's hard as hell to look at things from another perspective. Maybe big pvp alliances will start to have industrial wings that make cheap ships for them. Or the outer edges of your territory are open to those people who are willing to give you a cut of the profits in exchange for not getting hot dropped. There are also lots of people that will clear those crap anomalies and plex's.
Nicolas Nye	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:10:00 - [435] Originally by: Zastrow care to list some of these activities? the only possible thing I can infer from your post is ****ing with someone's tower fueling, something that dominion's isk payment system was intended to reduce. Yet, you just said these were great changes so that couldn't possibly be it, right? I'm trying real hard here to coax a reasonable argument from ANYONE as to some good parts of this dev blog, but so far nobody has delivered I can provide you too with empire standings for the mere price of 400mil thanks to my high sec connections. Please wire isk to Nicolas Nye in game, 15mil extra if you want me to jump your stuff out to Jita. You will be able to frolic joyfully in carebear land without any worries about maintaining sov or the like. I provide my sercives so as to make enjoyable EVE a game for everyone boy or girl.
Xantor Bludberry Amarr	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:11:00 - [436] First CCP close the offline skill training. We became obligated to monthly pay our accounts. Now CCP remove ôoffline alliancesö and introduces the system, with which we will be are obligated to hanting/mining/exploring solar systems. Otherwise, "then the activity indices may decay to the point" the level of system will fall down. It does follow us to await the following step? When we be obliged to fly, to shoot, to associate with the agents, to trade, to build, otherwise our corresponding skills will be reduced from 5 to 0, and we will lose skillpoins. Everything to that does go?
Tamahra Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:13:00 - [437] i wonder if anyone from ccp ever dares to set their foot into this sharkbasin now xD Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. StevieSG
Prof Fail Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:13:00 - [438] Postphone the Sov changes, they are terrible. Far to expensive, no rewards. It also gives us nothing to fight for. No moons, no space... Why somebody shpuld start an epic crusade to conquer all of eve if you cannot even pay the bill for 10 systems. Another source of epic fights were r64 moons, which get nerfed. Where is the pvp content? All will be busy carebearing to pay this stupid ally-bills and to maintain the upgrades. The upcoming changes for the capital battlefield (no dd, supercarrier, dreadchanges) will soften up the structure of eve by alot. Thats enough to justify an expansion named Dominion. It will be a source of epic fights. Without DD everything will change. But pls postphone those sovchanges. Your concept is terrible. Let the Sov-System as it is for now. Its really great compared to this new stuff.
Zastrow GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:14:00 - [439] Originally by: Inferno Styx personally I'd cut the numbers in half. 1.25 billion for a max pimp'd systems sounds about right to me. I don't honestly think your going to see a lot of those systems around though. Huge alliances will probably get 10-15 in the future. On the other subject about people not wanting to grind, I understand that isn't what you want to do and it's understandable. Given the current null sec environment (80% pvp characters and some indy/POS managers) it makes sense your there to pew-pew. However the point I want to make is that there are literally thousands of people out there who are willing to grind those rats and belts. The point I'm trying to make is that there are lots of ways to play the game and sometimes it's hard as hell to look at things from another perspective. Maybe big pvp alliances will start to have industrial wings that make cheap ships for them. Or the outer edges of your territory are open to those people who are willing to give you a cut of the profits in exchange for not getting hot dropped. There are also lots of people that will clear those crap anomalies and plex's. most alliances alrady have industrial wings, they're just based in highsec because 0.0 production takes a lot more effort (another point in the 0.0 cost/benefit argument) Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:17:00 - [440] Edited by: teji on 07/11/2009 07:18:25 Originally by: Inferno Styx personally I'd cut the numbers in half. 1.25 billion for a max pimp'd systems sounds about right to me. I don't honestly think your going to see a lot of those systems around though. Huge alliances will probably get 10-15 in the future. Why would they get the "pimped" systems when all the pimping does is increase the rate that it produces **ty resources that aren't worth running. Oh and it massively increases your monthly cost of simply existing in 0.0. Quote: On the other subject about people not wanting to grind, I understand that isn't what you want to do and it's understandable. Given the current null sec environment (80% pvp characters and some indy/POS managers) it makes sense your there to pew-pew. However the point I want to make is that there are literally thousands of people out there who are willing to grind those rats and belts. The point I'm trying to make is that there are lots of ways to play the game and sometimes it's hard as hell to look at things from another perspective. No, if you wanted to "grind" you would be in 0.0 right now. The fact that you aren't and people aren't is that they prefer the safety of concord. You have no ing clue what people are willing to do for some sort of payout. Quote: Maybe big pvp alliances will start to have industrial wings that make cheap ships for them. Or the outer edges of your territory are open to those people who are willing to give you a cut of the profits in exchange for not getting hot dropped. There are also lots of people that will clear those crap anomalies and plex's. You honestly think that any 0.0 alliance doesn't currently have hundreds of players already producing ships cheaply for the alliances? The outer edges are buffer zones to protect your central core. Why let potential enemies there and risk everything? Holy ** you are dumb.

ian666 Hairy Male Strippers Club	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:21:00 - [441] Originally by: Zastrow care to list some of these activities? the only possible thing I can infer from your post is ****ing with someone's tower fueling, something that dominion's isk payment system was intended to reduce. Yet, you just said these were great changes so that couldn't possibly be it, right? I'm trying real hard here to coax a reasonable argument from ANYONE as to some good parts of this dev blog, but so far nobody has delivered Upgrades which will give moar complexes, wormholes, hidden belts which will generate moar $$$, ofc if people in your corp will be fair with each other and with their own corp - scenario when corp/alliance ran out of cash when people ratting in faction/officer fitted nightmares or doing complexes in a provate motherships is something that you should fix before it need to be fixed. More rich systems will give you back money you have put in in first case, besides this will make eve bigger, give more space for others which is good since only small amount of players live in 0.0.
Alice Teal	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:22:00 - [442] Originally by: Zastrow ... I sense your frustration. Here's what happened. CCP Devs: Hey we need upgrades to create new belts and higher-bounty rats FTW! CCP Coders: Ummmm. No one has touched that stuff with a ten-foot pole since Beta. We don't even know where it is in the code. Besides, belts? Remember how dang long it took us to get that silly monument in Jita? Yeah. CCP Devs: Well, ummm, we need something to make the space better...erm... CCP Coders: What about all that exploration and WH stuff you had us do a few expansions ago? CCP Devs: I don't think that will really cut it in this case. CCP Coders: Sites and WH linked to upgrades? Message received.
FuriousPig Amarr IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:34:00 - [443] The premise of Dominion seemed exciting at first. The thought of smaller Alliances swarming into 0.0, border movement, Territorial conflict & massive defence of home space re-invigorated my Eve passion. Now all I have to worry about debt collectors. The blog is laughably ill-conceived, the upgrades marginally short of pathetic & motivation for actually claiming space, absent. A huge percentage of pilots moved to 0.0 because we had done our mission running & ratting & wanted something different. Its fine equating the bills to 15 Battleship spawns a day but thatÆs not why we are here. Furthermore do you seriously believe Alliances will pay billions upgrading their systems so that 100s of pilots can go chasing around looking for an extra 2 anomalies? Even if you added 2 per system within a constellation they would be gone before most people got home from work. Anyone remember Empire complexes? Did CCP actually listen to what was asked of them? I believe the problem was that Alliances were too entrenched & smaller Alliances were unable to gain a foothold. Boundaries were stagnant & sovereignty mechanics did indeed need a revamp but I donÆt think anyone appreciates being taxed out of claiming systems. What a tragic end to years of work from some of the older Alliances & a huge economic stumbling block for new ones. The only incentive for small Alliances to come to 0.0 is to destroy; I doubt many can afford to settle. Call me pessimistic but I envisage vast tracts of unclaimed, unoccupied, space, battles raging around single systems of high worth, a small steady exodus to Empire & the sub-mediocre grind of ratting - boring people out of the game. The problem here is balance, feel free to charge exorbitant fees for systems but there needs to be mechanisms to recoup cost that does not involve mindless grind. Gate fees, Alliance wide taxes, POS taxes; anything but donÆt make us go ratting again! P.S. Something that hasnÆt been mentioned but wonÆt POS fuel costs go up by 25% since there will be no discount for Constellation Sovereignty? ThatÆs another cost on top.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:36:00 - [444] Originally by: ian666 Upgrades which will give moar complexes, wormholes, hidden belts which will generate moar $$$ No they won't. We can have the same amount of plexes and wormholes by just curmbstomping anyone within reach and using that space as farming ground with much less cost attached to it. You clearly have no clue about what you're talking about if you think hidden belts were generating isk. Nobody bothers with them. ---------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
Bilbo II Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:36:00 - [445] Originally by: Alice Teal Originally by: Zastrow ... I sense your frustration. Here's what happened. CCP Devs: Hey we need upgrades to create new belts and higher-bounty rats FTW! CCP Coders: Ummmm. No one has touched that stuff with a ten-foot pole since Beta. We don't even know where it is in the code. Besides, belts? Remember how dang long it took us to get that silly monument in Jita? Yeah. CCP Devs: Well, ummm, we need something to make the space better...erm... CCP Coders: What about all that exploration and WH stuff you had us do a few expansions ago? CCP Devs: I don't think that will really cut it in this case. CCP Coders: Sites and WH linked to upgrades? Message received. Sounds about right.
pc dude Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:36:00 - [446] this expansion is naught but a boost to npc space. calling it here. we wont quit eve though, at least not until another pvp game comes out....or this one falls below the quality of pvp offered elsewhere =p
Jethro Hawkins	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:36:00 - [447] I agree with most. These costs will limit Alliance "official" sov. They will still hold the same amount of space. Smaller corps will have no chance of setting a foothold because of the massive price tag. For all those crunching numbers about certain people/corp/month grinding. My current corp pays our rent with bi-weekly ops... probably will have to set that alliance wide if prices stay as they are and DEMAND participation... and if a corp doesn't give enough isk, they'll be fined. My corp will probably be moving from our 0.0 system after the patch. We are paying rent in drone region and this will be too much for us to setup/maintain, forget about the lack of bounties also. At least faction warfare will pick up... maybe I'll rejoin that.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:37:00 - [448] Questions for CCP: 1. Is ratting being nerfed for existing 0.0 systems that remain un-upgraded so overflow of players can rat outside the upgraded system basically with current income? Do you envision some kind of scenario of having a fortress with Sov and space around it for ratting without Sov, so that Sov will be more like islands or a castle for defense that people retreat to? 2.Regarding anchorable modules. Hubs have had a wide variety of hit points on Sisi, what are the reasons for more or less hit points on these hubs. 3. What purpose does CCP see for the grid/cpu on the infrastructure hub? Do you anticipate that these hubs will replace any POS for reactions or labs or other industry? Is this simply for guns? 4. How many hubs can we anchor per system? 5. Is the jump bridge range under consideration at all? 6. It seems this cost for Sov may cause some deflation with such a large isk sink. Is this intended by CCP, and if so why? 7. Does CCP have a sov coverage goal, and if so please describe what that is? never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:41:00 - [449] Originally by: Zastrow Originally by: Inferno Styx personally I'd cut the numbers in half. 1.25 billion for a max pimp'd systems sounds about right to me. I don't honestly think your going to see a lot of those systems around though. Huge alliances will probably get 10-15 in the future. On the other subject about people not wanting to grind, I understand that isn't what you want to do and it's understandable. Given the current null sec environment (80% pvp characters and some indy/POS managers) it makes sense your there to pew-pew. However the point I want to make is that there are literally thousands of people out there who are willing to grind those rats and belts. The point I'm trying to make is that there are lots of ways to play the game and sometimes it's hard as hell to look at things from another perspective. Maybe big pvp alliances will start to have industrial wings that make cheap ships for them. Or the outer edges of your territory are open to those people who are willing to give you a cut of the profits in exchange for not getting hot dropped. There are also lots of people that will clear those crap anomalies and plex's. most alliances alrady have industrial wings, they're just based in highsec because 0.0 production takes a lot more effort (another point in the 0.0 cost/benefit argument) Zastrow, 0.0 production takes a lot more effort because people don't want to "waste" time mining the low ends along with the high ends. Consider that to keep things running a peak profitability they may need to mine some low ends now... which makes 0.0 production a lot easier than it currently is. In conjunction to this also consider that a lot of alliances are going to find themselves wanting to make treaties (when released) to get industrial corps set up in their now unoccupied area's so that those area's can generate revenue for the main alliance (rent). These two things, if handled properly, have to potential to develop a nice synergy. More resources available and consumed "in" 0.0... and an actual diversified production/market chain develops. I'm not saying I think these things will dovetail automatically, at least not with the information we have about the current values and mechanics. I think some things are going to have to be tweaked, and there are still some pieces to the puzzle missing. What I am saying is that when you step back and look at how all of these little bits and pieces fit together (and yes, right now that can be a big headache) there "is" a method to the madness that has the potential to work (even though when you look at only a few aspects of these changes it seems impossible). I'm going to have to study this for a while. The major point I see as needing to be addressed immediately is the lack of a sliding scale on cost per number of systems claimed. Right now the rates are scaring the little fella's, and not working as well as it could to control the bigger fish (although to be honest, the limited infrastructure available to newcomers will keep the prices fairly low at first anyway). The tweaks will all have to aimed at the central goals of 1: Giving larger alliances a reason to scale back their personal holdings and make arrangements with smaller entities to generate income for them in return for protection. 2: Give the smaller alliances reason to want to leave Empire and develop an area even if paying rent to someone (I.E. being more profitable or at least equal in profit to Empire), and more fun to do. When you step back and look at all the pieces the framework to achieve this is there, it just needs some work. Footnote: Yes, the Droneland situation is going to have to be explained as well, they have some unique difficulties to overcome with this system. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Calruthian The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:42:00 - [450] Fixing Sovereignty? I always knew it was only a matter of time before ccp dropped the ball. What will be the point of invading someone else's space when ppl wont claim most of what they already own post patch? It's going to be pathetic to look at the sov map all through 2010, if it ever recovers.

Stevens Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:44:00 - [451] And before anyone gets their hopes on this getting fixed lets not forget the code freeze. That happens 2 or 3 weeks before patch hits. So that gives CCP 11 (or 4 lol) days that they can make changes before the patch gets locked and that is what gets sent live. Does anyone believe CCP can fix this in even 11 days (let alone 4)
Kanatta Jing	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:45:00 - [452] I'm calming down and thinking back to my industrial corp roots when siphoning the maximum amount of ISK out of a 0.0 Constellation was what 500 players simply did. Shortages of midrange minerals, trying to guilt people into mining plagioclase effectively for free, Jump Freighters of megacyte and zydrine moving to Empire to sell. Make rent, fly naked battleships under noses of some of the best PVP pilots in EVE to sell at par to keep friends friendly. Ah, sweet ulcer, it's all coming back to me now. Okay, I can see an Industrial Corp paying for SOV, I can see them paying rent to a nearby PVP alliance for protection and/or the right to exist and I can see them paying for war fleet production (Caps and general PVP ships) to achieve general independance and to keep from being kicked around. I just can't see more then three of those at once, so we're kind of right back where we were before.
Korodan Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:45:00 - [453] Originally by: Stevens And before anyone gets their hopes on this getting fixed lets not forget the code freeze. That happens 2 or 3 weeks before patch hits. So that gives CCP 11 (or 4 lol) days that they can make changes before the patch gets locked and that is what gets sent live. Does anyone believe CCP can fix this in even 11 days (let alone 4) At this point getting no patch would be better then this, I dearly hope they delay it.
Marina Charnatie Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:46:00 - [454] To everyone posting. CCP is not the devil. They are not monsters out to ruin your fun. They really care about this game too. For whatever reason, there's a serious breakdown in achieving the stated goals and actual process. Lets, as some have already done, suggest strong options for them to use. CCP, please don't put this in as it is. Really, it is going to push more people apart rather than together.
Bilbo II Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:52:00 - [455] This expansion will sure let the little guy into 0.0 because all the big alliances can shrink the amount of space they need. Well that was the plan anyhow but the reality is that.... 1.Our costs just went way way up. 2.Only the jammer/gen/jb upgrade is worth anything (lol 10 extra worthless anomolies, yeah I'll be sure to get all 5 levels of that) 3.Having sov produces 0 benifits over not having sov excepts for jammed or jb systems. 4. Moon goo nerfed so income must come from members forcing them to carebear more than now. Total result is we now need even MORE space than we held before. We won't sov it because there is no point but the little guy sure a hell is not gonna be allowed to live there.
Stevens Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:52:00 - [456] Originally by: Korodan Originally by: Stevens And before anyone gets their hopes on this getting fixed lets not forget the code freeze. That happens 2 or 3 weeks before patch hits. So that gives CCP 11 (or 4 lol) days that they can make changes before the patch gets locked and that is what gets sent live. Does anyone believe CCP can fix this in even 11 days (let alone 4) At this point getting no patch would be better then this, I dearly hope they delay it. They didn't delay for boot.ini
Vadinho GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:55:00 - [457] Originally by: Marina Charnatie To everyone posting. CCP is not the devil. They are not monsters out to ruin your fun. i dont think anyone here is suggesting ccp are monsters theyre just totally ignorant about how their own game works, both mechanically and functionally
Selnix Gallente North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:58:00 - [458] Originally by: Vivian Azure And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades. If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill. Stop whining. You Sir, deserve some sort of award for the best troll post of the entire thread. Apparently by stating that the goal of funding a Sov system with upgrades is easily attainable you somehow got people believing that the argument here is the cost. The cost of the upgrades and sov is irrelevant. The argument here is that these upgrades, and even sov itself, are quite worthless under the system that is being implemented in the majority of 0.0 space. Dominion was heralded as the chariot that would whisk the little empire bears out into the riches of 0.0 where they could thrive in little cave-like pockets and provide a new target-rich environment for those of us that would rather shoot ships that have some chance of doing something unpredictable instead of a bunch of bots that do the same thing all day every day. Nothing about this expansion as it has been outlined thus far does this. You might ask, "Are there going to be more systems without sov that they can dig in and try to live in?" and the answer would obviously be a "Yes.". The problem is that there is nothing stopping these same people from doing that under the current system. An unused system now has no less benefit to a group looking to gain a foothold than it will after Sov is removed. Any little corporation out there can move into 0.0 under the current game mechanics with practically the same ease as they would in Dominion because post-patch the only systems you can really expect to see Sov in are those with outposts and those that have jump bridges for logistics on the way to those outposts. If you get down to the essence of things, outposts are only useful to allow people to dock up and keep their ships/modules/etc relatively safe while also allowing for a market to exist. In all of the systems without outposts the new guys will be forced to live out of POS towers and no matter how you try to spin it, that is already more than doable. So it all boils down to for an upstart Alliance is either trying to take an outpost under what could very well end up being no easier circumstances than currently exist or attempting to do as they already can and organize their people into a life lived out of POS while trying to dodge that corp thief silver bullet. There is really just no justification for upgrading a system that you do not need sov in either for giving some buffer of protection to your outpost or for protecting your jump bridge network. Any percieved gains from the increases that they can provide are completely nullified by the fact that the costs will consume more than you can expect to milk out of the system over what could already be earned there through normal activity. This is even more ludicrous in that there is an activity requirement for upgrades to become available but that same activity is beyond a waste of time without the upgrades. How can you expect the bears to mine endless hours to get their upgrades when they could make just as much mining in lowsec and without the monthly bill? CCP's expectations of cramming a hundred people into a system and having them use it for anything more than a place to dock up are laughable as the resources available through upgrading won't likely support 1/10th of that number at any given time in the average 0.0 system. The other major flaw in the logic or lack thereof where your rather epic troll post is concerned is also a simple one. You give your argument as though the goal in 0.0 is to farm enough fund sov. For the vast majority of 0.0 residents the goal is to have fun and if having fun requires grinding a few hours for isk to buy ships to go lose in a shower of internet pixels, that is a necessary burden. Farming to enable us to grind isk is, for many of us, not the reason we subscribe to EVE. -Sel
north south	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:59:00 - [459] Wow, great to see some changes CCP, however i am a bit dissapointed scrolling trough 16 pages of text without reading ANY replies from your side. First of all, congrats with knocking big alliances down to their knees to show them they need to be properly organised, but ehm... your bringing in a pritty big problem here, and some unreadable lines. The following i am not getting clear from your post: If an alliance occupies for example 30 systems and had 10 corporations in it. Does this mean the alliance has to get all 10 corps to pay the bill for every system out of these 30? Or does it mean that every corp picks 3 systems to maintain and pay the bills for that? This does nake a huge diffrence in the billing system to sustain systems and stations. Paying 1 bil a day for corps is a bit much i would think, and not affordable. But paying 120 mil isk a day for 3 upgraded systems might be something most corps can actualy afford to do, if their alliance can hold 30 systems then. So how will this work exactly, since your not stating that clearly in your post?
Aquinzus Amarr Modern Marvels	Posted - 2009.11.07 08:02:00 - [460] Those numbers are ******ed. No one can claim space for 2+ Billion a system per month to start off, there will be no point in claiming space, people will stay where they are and still claim what they have, there just wont be any Sov on the map. This patch nerfed player space and boosted NPC Space. I think all this patch did was kill Jump Bridges and Cyno Jammers since no Alliance in thier right mind would ever pay 2+ Billion a month to use one. I said it before and I say it now, this patch hasnt cured anything, just taken SOV out of the equasion, you still have to shoot a "structure" to take a system, outpost instead of POS. Costs of holding Sov means no one will hold Sov anymore. Eve has reverted back to when there was no Sov and you lived out of NPC stations or Towers.

Static Kinetics Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.11.07 08:03:00 - [461] The Benefits of Resource Upgrades Note the names for the upgrades are not final! Pirate Magnets - add two additional guaranteed anomalies per level to your solar system Ore Prospecting Array - adds one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level to your solar system Entrapment - increase the chance significantly of a DED complex being located in the depths of your solar system Survey Networks - increase the chance significantly of mini-profession sites being located within your solar system Quantum Flux Generator - increase the chance significantly of a wormhole being discovered within your solar system to w-space. please tell me that this is all under a "exploration upgrades" part of the tree and that there is more to come otherwise id say this is bull**** and shows a serious lack of creativity.
Prometheus09 I.M.M Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.11.07 08:05:00 - [462] I went to post a reply but it got very long. So I posted it on my blog instead at the The Captains Log.
Daniel Ogden	Posted - 2009.11.07 08:06:00 - [463] Edited by: Daniel Ogden on 07/11/2009 08:09:49 CCP, We don't PVP to secure ground for ratting, plexing and otherwise grinding for ISK. We rat, plex and grind for ISK so that we can buy **** for PVP. Get it? Give us more lucrative rats so we can spend !--->LESS<--! time shooting NPCs and spend more time pew pewing. I was very excited for this patch. WAS being the operative word in that sentence. If I wanted to carebear more I'd go to empire. EDIT: How long have you been working on this anyhow? I would think a drunken night at the office by the result. Hard to believe this is what all the hubub was about. Pirate magnets FTL. This is lame.
Kushmir GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 08:06:00 - [464] Ultimately there is only 1 way to make null-sec worthwhile and that is to nerf highsec. Most people playing this game are almost exclusively in highsec. CCP has no real reason to want to **** off a crapload of carebears.
Priestess Broadchest Amarr Strippin Aint Easy Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.11.07 08:07:00 - [465] Its been a while since CCP buffoonery upset so many players, will they reply ? do they even care ?
Gtab	Posted - 2009.11.07 08:09:00 - [466] Seriously, CCP? This is what you think "listening to 0.0 Alliance CSMs" should look like?
Kim' Possible	Posted - 2009.11.07 08:10:00 - [467] A few things: 1.)I applaud CCP for recognizing the sov system flaws and fixing them 2.)I hate CCP for half-assing it and rushing to finish it Bobby Atlas is right, on every account. Nobody is going to say that they aren't going to fight and work for their space, but these changes are overboard. Not to mention every small alliance, space-holding or not, is strung out to dry. CCP had a great idea, and created a nice infrastructure of hubs and flags to enact the new system. Then, they rushed to think of a payment and deployment system and in effect, ruined it. They made a deadline for deployment before they knew what was involved, and are now stuck with a failing system. The "upgrades" are not thought through, the pricing is un-realistic, and everyone is going to suffer because of it. I like the ideas of Fleet Finder, the Automatic Payments, etc. are great ideas. Implement those in a patch. But hold off on Dominion for another 6 months or something, give yourselves some real time to think of a good system for payment, expansion, upgrading, find the code to do it all properly, and reasonable time to test and get feedback. I wouldn't mind waiting another 6months or so to get a final revision that actually works instead of this crap. You didn