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Maru Ka'ge Breaks Contract with Noir.

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Vonlin Twisted Legion	Posted - 2009.11.15 00:02:00 - [241] Originally by: Nimmu My five cents. Noir. was not clear in thoroughly explaining the specifics of the contract. What isn't clear about paying 50% of everything killed in XYZ systems? Originally by: Nimmu Noir. is still quite suspect here. Look at this kill: http://noir.pinacoderm.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6850 50% of this kill's value was included in the total amount owed. Certainly, the person doing the hiring stated "kill everything in X area", which is literally interpreted as just that, "everything". But, a faction fitted CS from a newb corp, which dropped some nice loot, do you really think that the person hiring Noir. intended to pay them ~600M ISK to kill this type of ship in the target area? Yes. Its a ship. Its in the required area. The contract was to kill all ships in the required area. It doesn't matter how stupid the client was in designing the contract, he designed it and agreed to it, he and noir therefore both have to uphold it. Just because someone is stupid when signing a contract does mean they get out of the contract later when their stupidity is realized.
Alekseyev Karrde Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.15 04:03:00 - [242] Originally by: Nimmu But, a faction fitted CS from a newb corp, which dropped some nice loot, do you really think that the person hiring Noir. intended to pay them ~600M ISK to kill this type of ship in the target area? Would you feel like you were being hustled, if you were asked to dish out 600M for a kill like this one? With MK's general ineptitude set aside, I find that I am able to empathize with their position. If anything, Noir. should man up and negotiate more aggressively. I understand that the situation is resolved, so it is irrelevant now anyways, but: All I see in the first two pages of this thread are an attempt by Noir. to use their name to steamroll some fail alliance for a lot more ISK than their services are worth, and that fail alliance's feeble attempt to resist the hustle. I certainly don't see much in the way of 'professionalism' or any attempt at proper conflict resolution. Maru alt: if you read the conversation mediated by Minigin I acknowledged that thought the contract explicitly stated kill everything, I'd be willing to waive off the highly valued Tengu and Nighthawk kills given who the pilots were. Maru still could not make their required payment, but in the end i decided to take ISK in hand. There's plenty of room to disagree about this conflict resolution approach, but in light of the poorly executed and poorly veiled attempt to accuse Noir. of extortion and torpedo my CSM campaign after the compromise was reached, if anything I was too lenient. Now my only consolation is the delicious irony and parade of tears that is Maru being mad that after they effectively got their bill reduced by over 60% no amount of ISK they have offered or will offer will ever get them standings. Which all in all isnt so bad really... --- Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam
Puppy UK	Posted - 2009.11.15 06:07:00 - [243] Long time no see Alec, im still waiting for more poddy casts, id be happy to throw some iskies your way to see you continue to kick MK around a little. Mebby we could start a syndicate. Refreshing to see you guys around Fade/PB, been fun. Beats kicking MK around while they hide and smackl local :D /me awaits allaince fine I FC Bestest Drunkies
Altaica Amur Ichizoku	Posted - 2009.11.15 06:52:00 - [244] Fully supporting Noir's viewpoint here, Alek seems to be remarkably patient and reasonable as far as alliance heads go, given the comments made both by other Noir personnel and observers they should be quite happy to have him where he's at. Though some would point out that MK's ... issues should have been foreseen it seems to me that unless the campaign was more costly then I imagine there was little risk and potentially a good reward involved. It's that risk to reward idea that interests me because while I think Noir should have been paid the full contracted amount I'm not sure the pricing structure does a good job of balancing the concerns of the merc and the wallet of the contractor. While I would say that destroyed items, even faction should count as part of the contract, as it still costs the enemy isk, moreso even then t1 hulls I would suggest that a sliding scale should be in place to take into account the risk undertaken by the merc. My idea was a flat fee for the presence of the mercs and a sliding scale for the isk damage to be paid back to the merc, an inverse of their isk efficiency. This would both promote kills on the part of the merc corp as 100% of 0isk damage delt is still 0isk while also acknowledging the risks, or lack of risks taken by the mercs in question. If they have to toe to toe with large gangs and take losses for it they should be paid accordingly and vice versa the employer probably shouldn't have to pay 50% on top of a lucky gank of a JF where no losses were taken and millions or billions of isk were looted after wards. x+((-z+1)y) = isk x = Flat fee y = Damage done z = isk efficiency To insure that the mercs are doing better then simply breaking even having a minimum 10% of damage paid or putting an outright buff to the % of damage paid would also likely be necessary to insure that highly efficient groups that get close to 100% efficiency aren't punished unduly. x+((-z+1.1)y) = isk Just some thoughts from reading what was a very entertaining thread.
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.15 07:09:00 - [245] Originally by: Altaica Amur ... Interesting, and noted. I don't speak for any mercs in saying whether it is good or not, but I will play with the formula on some data to see if this kind of thing is worth adding as an option to killboard autocalcs.
Nimmu	Posted - 2009.11.15 09:11:00 - [246] Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde Maru alt: if you read the conversation mediated by Minigin I acknowledged that thought the contract explicitly stated kill everything, I'd be willing to waive off the highly valued Tengu and Nighthawk kills given who the pilots were. Maru still could not make their required payment, but in the end i decided to take ISK in hand. There's plenty of room to disagree about this conflict resolution approach, but in light of the poorly executed and poorly veiled attempt to accuse Noir. of extortion and torpedo my CSM campaign after the compromise was reached, if anything I was too lenient. Now my only consolation is the delicious irony and parade of tears that is Maru being mad that after they effectively got their bill reduced by over 60% no amount of ISK they have offered or will offer will ever get them standings. Which all in all isnt so bad really... Not a Maru Alt, not accusing anyone of straightforward extortion, not interested in CSM. Try to mitigate the weight of my words? Obviously I should have read the entire 8 page thread, whining, emotional opinion, blatent flaming (for, as stated several times already, a largely at-fault customer of Noir.) and all. I am still not impressed by the initial contract terms; obviously Sick Guy should not have agreed to them, but on the same hand you knew full well what you were doing when you presented such terms to him. A '60% discount' off of an outrageous bill certainly seems fair in any case...
Nimmu	Posted - 2009.11.15 09:54:00 - [247] Originally by: Vonlin What isn't clear about paying 50% of everything killed in XYZ systems? You are surely kidding me. Their conversation and initial agreement is almost incoherent. Sick Guy can barely get an idea across without mangling it, and most of what he does produce is wide open to selective interpretation. If I were to hire mercenaries, the terms of payment and contract objectives would be explicit and very, very clearly phrased. As would my budget, my price expectations, and my timeline expectations. His fault. You are reading my opinion the wrong way. You are reading this as a scathing criticism of Noir., or an attempt to slander them, accuse them of outright extortion and bad business. I strongly believe that the employer's ineptitude is largely responsible for the subsequent drama which we have here in this thread. However, as stated before, I still believe that Noir.'s structuring of this contract and its actualization reflects a deliberate abuse of a client's ineptitude or lack of clarity. 2B seems pretty fair in light of everything; it is too bad that the Sick Guy didn't set that price expectation to begin with. He probably could have had them for a week at that amount.
Jimer Lins Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.15 10:22:00 - [248] Originally by: Nimmu I still believe that Noir.'s structuring of this contract and its actualization represents an attempt at deliberate abuse of a client's ineptitude or lack of clarity. In that case, I'll simply state: You are wrong. Killboard-Declarations of War Podcast
Kim Chubby Demonic Empire Everto Rex Regis	Posted - 2009.11.15 11:12:00 - [249] I'm siding with Noir. as well because they stated what the contract was to be, and MK didn't tell them what the budget they had in the first place. Whenever you seek out services from any company, RL or in a game, you want to be quoted (which MK asked for and got) then you make sure that quote coincides with their own budget. If you only had a set amount set aside for the services that Noir. provides, you should tell that merc company that in the first place. That way, Noir. would stop when they reached the designated target price. Personally, I see nothing wrong in the actions and invoice that Alek has posted. It makes sense to me, and I think if I had been an alliance that hired Noir. I'd make sure they got paid for their actions. They did a fine job, and did what they were hired for. Noir. deserves to get paid in full or destroy everything MK has until that 4.9 bn has been reached. I'm glad Noir. took a stand, and would hope all other Merc groups do the same in the future in the event this kind of situation occurs to them.
Dray Caldari The Water Margin Tech	Posted - 2009.11.15 11:52:00 - [250] Originally by: Nimmu I strongly believe that the employer's ineptitude is largely responsible for the subsequent drama which we have here in this thread. Says it all. Originally by: Nimmu However, as stated before, I still believe that Noir.'s structuring of this contract and its actualization represents an attempt at deliberate abuse of a client's ineptitude or lack of clarity. Sick stated what he wanted, Alex stated what he would do and what it would cost. He cant be held responsible for dealing with an idiot who cant understand what was clearly put in front of him, or question fully the implications of what hes agreeing to. The only thing Noir have done wrong, afaic, is deal with someone dumb enough to lose a game of charades to stevie wonder and your blaming them for it.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.11.15 15:46:00 - [251] It's hilarious that people are trying to defend maru. When Aleks first said '50% of what we kill' , Sick boy should have IMMEDIATELY clarified the damage to what, and if mod were to be included. EVERYONE with even a passing familiarity with killboards knows that isk damage inflicted includes loot dropped, mods destroyed, hulls without insurance, and rigs. Because thats the value of the kill. Doesn't matter if Noir scooped up a bil in mods from a kill, they denied the person they killed the value of those mods. You can't just say that its the value of the hulls killed, because its clear to all but the clinically stupid that ANY well rigged and set-up ship will cost a great deal more, even if just with t1 rigs and t2 fits. Oh btw, I noticed a DG boost amp herevalued at 350k, which is CLEARLY the right price . People can ***** and moan all they like about how its unfair to charge for this and that, but if you have a problem with being charged for it, then you should have asked before hand. Noir. do a superb job, and how much they deserve to be paid is entirely in the eye of the beholder. People who say that the amount asked for was unfair don't understand how frikkin dangerous it is to go out with a small fleet into NPC 0.0 with no standings is, especially when the target is 'everyone' for a set period of time. You can't just bail back to empire when people log off, or when bigger gangs show up. It needs patience, skill, dedication and co-ordination, and that doesn't come cheap. At time of writing, maru are getting a nice beat down from their former employees, which is just lolable. I love how the only 'official' MK responces are 'well I'M at 500% efficiency against noir'. I love how they don't give a crap about their alliance members who are getting slapped around all day. You personally aren't loosing anything so its ok ? Right. Sure. That's awesome leadership there
RedSplat Noir.	Posted - 2009.11.15 16:27:00 - [252] You seem pretty personally invested in establishing that Noir. are evil, evil extorting unprofessional Mercenaries Nema. Would you like a hug? Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Shinma Apollo Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2009.11.15 16:44:00 - [253] Apparently, we too are vacationing. Having 2 blues is painful to my no-standings backbone, but we've had a great opportunity to get to know a couple merc corps better. BTW, Alek and fear, can you two hit up either mini or myself. Oh, public endorsement for ELVENLORD. Remember: For tireless CSM, think furry***, think ELVENLORD.
Suas Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.15 16:55:00 - [254] Sad I missed out on this. Maru Ka'ge is an even bigger laughing stock than MH is. They are BRUCE level bad. _________________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE!
Kera Delacour Royal Black Watch Highlanders	Posted - 2009.11.15 17:33:00 - [255] Edited by: Kera Delacour on 15/11/2009 17:33:22 Noir ftw tbh.
Taram Caldar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.15 17:37:00 - [256] Originally by: Loqiel When a ship is blown up, all should be considered lost. Just as there is no way of telling the insurance payout for a ship lost, there is no telling which side looted the wreck, or even if a third party did it; those modules should be considered forfeit and added to the ISK lost. Now, if Noir is artificially enhancing their killboard numbers by using inflated values on modules and ships, then that's a more serious charge, but I seriously doubt a corp of their repute would risk their name by cooking the books in such an obvious and ultimately damaging way. Actually if anyone finds modules or ship hulls miss-valued on our KB please go to our public forums and post telling us both the item that's in error and the correct in-game price. We'll get it corrected in the DB as soon as we possibly can. We are constantly correcting prices on faction items and ships because not only are those prices important to properly charge our customers but also to properly pay our pilots. We don't monkey with Market sellable items typically because EVE-Central tracks that pretty well even if it's not always 100% perfect it's usually close enough for our purposes. Want a sig made? Contact me in game. Click my sig to see samples
Doctor Cal'torien Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.15 18:53:00 - [257] i really do like this thread, very funny LOLZ also, Sex --- YOUR BABIES ARE TASTY Originally by: Nadarius Chrome "Set artillery to stun!"
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.15 20:19:00 - [258] Originally by: Katarlia Simov Oh btw, I noticed a DG boost amp herevalued at 350k, which is CLEARLY the right price . must warn aleks about that. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Vonlin Twisted Legion	Posted - 2009.11.15 21:41:00 - [259] Originally by: Nimmu Edited by: Nimmu on 15/11/2009 09:55:30 Originally by: Vonlin What isn't clear about paying 50% of everything killed in XYZ systems? You are surely kidding me. Their conversation and initial agreement is almost incoherent. Sick Guy can barely get an idea across without mangling it, and most of what he does produce is wide open to selective interpretation. If I were to hire mercenaries, the terms of payment and contract objectives would be explicit and very, very clearly phrased. As would my budget, my price expectations, and my timeline expectations. His fault. You are reading my opinion the wrong way. You are reading this as a scathing criticism of Noir., or an attempt to slander them, accuse them of outright extortion and bad business. I strongly believe that the employer's ineptitude is largely responsible for the subsequent drama which we have here in this thread. However, as stated before, I still believe that Noir.'s structuring of this contract and its actualization represents an attempt at deliberate abuse of a client's ineptitude or lack of clarity. I surely am not kidding you. Deliberate abuse of a client's ineptitude? Its not a contract manger's responsibility to sit down and hold the hand of a client and baby them, they are negotiators. They should treat them with respect and help them reach an agreement that is beneficial to both parties, but they are not the client's parent, they are not there to tell them they are making a bad life choice. Lack of clarity? Again, how do you get more clear than 50% of whats killed in XYZ systems? There doesn't seem much room for confusion there. Any ships we kill in these systems, you will have to pay us 50% of the ISK damage. How is that misleading? Seems pretty clear to me.
Taram Caldar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.15 22:00:00 - [260] Originally by: Vonlin Originally by: Nimmu Edited by: Nimmu on 15/11/2009 09:55:30 Originally by: Vonlin What isn't clear about paying 50% of everything killed in XYZ systems? You are surely kidding me. Their conversation and initial agreement is almost incoherent. Sick Guy can barely get an idea across without mangling it, and most of what he does produce is wide open to selective interpretation. If I were to hire mercenaries, the terms of payment and contract objectives would be explicit and very, very clearly phrased. As would my budget, my price expectations, and my timeline expectations. His fault. You are reading my opinion the wrong way. You are reading this as a scathing criticism of Noir., or an attempt to slander them, accuse them of outright extortion and bad business. I strongly believe that the employer's ineptitude is largely responsible for the subsequent drama which we have here in this thread. However, as stated before, I still believe that Noir.'s structuring of this contract and its actualization represents an attempt at deliberate abuse of a client's ineptitude or lack of clarity. I surely am not kidding you. Deliberate abuse of a client's ineptitude? Its not a contract manger's responsibility to sit down and hold the hand of a client and baby them, they are negotiators. They should treat them with respect and help them reach an agreement that is beneficial to both parties, but they are not the client's parent, they are not there to tell them they are making a bad life choice. Lack of clarity? Again, how do you get more clear than 50% of whats killed in XYZ systems? There doesn't seem much room for confusion there. Any ships we kill in these systems, you will have to pay us 50% of the ISK damage. How is that misleading? Seems pretty clear to me. It's also important to note that they could have negotiated for any number of other payment meathods. Every contract Noir. does is unique to the client. We don't have a flat pricing system, it depends on what the client and Alek agree to. If he didn't like the terms of the agreement he could have offered a different one. We've done flat rate contracts, pay per kill contracts, performance benchmark contracts etc. It really depends on what the client wants and what Alek and the Client agree to. Not our fault at all that the client agreed to a very clear pricing scheme and didn't want to live up to their end of the bargain. Want a sig made? Contact me in game. Click my sig to see samples
Xiaodown Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2009.11.16 18:06:00 - [261] Originally by: Taram Caldar It's also important to note that they could have negotiated for any number of other payment meathods. Every contract Noir. does is unique to the client. We don't have a flat pricing system, it depends on what the client and Alek agree to. If he didn't like the terms of the agreement he could have offered a different one. We've done flat rate contracts, pay per kill contracts, performance benchmark contracts etc. It really depends on what the client wants and what Alek and the Client agree to. Not our fault at all that the client agreed to a very clear pricing scheme and didn't want to live up to their end of the bargain. Everyone who hires a Merc should explicitly add the following to their contract: "(terms of payment...) up to a maximum of X isk." How is that something that people fail to do? (sup taram!) --
Pater Peccavi Minmatar The Bastards	Posted - 2009.11.16 18:21:00 - [262] Originally by: Xiaodown Originally by: Taram Caldar It's also important to note that they could have negotiated for any number of other payment meathods. Every contract Noir. does is unique to the client. We don't have a flat pricing system, it depends on what the client and Alek agree to. If he didn't like the terms of the agreement he could have offered a different one. We've done flat rate contracts, pay per kill contracts, performance benchmark contracts etc. It really depends on what the client wants and what Alek and the Client agree to. Not our fault at all that the client agreed to a very clear pricing scheme and didn't want to live up to their end of the bargain. Everyone who hires a Merc should explicitly add the following to their contract: "(terms of payment...) up to a maximum of X isk." How is that something that people fail to do? (sup taram!) People should always use written contracts and receipts for any business deal, but if they did shows like Judge Judy and The People's Court wouldn't have any litigants. Since those shows are going strong, clearly we can conclude that people are idiots, both ingame and IRL. _________
Awesome Possum Imperium Signal Corps	Posted - 2009.11.16 18:32:00 - [263] I would like to contract Noir. to do approximately 100k isk worth of damage to Creone's ship. Contact me in game. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Sick Boy Minmatar Unknown-Entity Maru Ka'ge	Posted - 2009.11.16 18:58:00 - [264] Ok I don't post a lot but the amount alek is lying is amazing. He should be ashamed of himself as a man. He has doctored the original deal contract chat log. The part he is leaving out that is important is that I SPECIFICALLY told him that PL had left system and that their would be no need to attack everyhthing around x-7 because the enemy was no longer there. I told him the SPECIFIC target was now MUTINY alliance in the ONE system of ROIR. Even the leaders of MUTINY know they were NOIRs target. Not like it was a surprise to anyone. So for alek to say that the contract was for EVERYTHING around is a complete lie and deep down he knows it, mutiny knows it, but he comes on here and lies to everyone and his own members about what the true contract was. Why would I care about roaming NC gangs? SO keep lying about what the contract really was alek, and that is all I am going to say about this situation.
Kan3r Blaze Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.16 19:08:00 - [265] Originally by: Sick Boy Ok I don't post a lot but the amount alek is lying is amazing. He should be ashamed of himself as a man. He has doctored the original deal contract chat log. The part he is leaving out that is important is that I SPECIFICALLY told him that PL had left system and that their would be no need to attack everyhthing around x-7 because the enemy was no longer there. I told him the SPECIFIC target was now MUTINY alliance in the ONE system of ROIR. Even the leaders of MUTINY know they were NOIRs target. Not like it was a surprise to anyone. So for alek to say that the contract was for EVERYTHING around is a complete lie and deep down he knows it, mutiny knows it, but he comes on here and lies to everyone and his own members about what the true contract was. Why would I care about roaming NC gangs? SO keep lying about what the contract really was alek, and that is all I am going to say about this situation. May I ask why you've only now just brought that up after 5 days, and why you didn't mention it in any one of your four other posts in this thread? Declarations of War - Revisted - Home of the Noir. podcast
Raiiden Gallente Unknown-Entity Maru Ka'ge	Posted - 2009.11.16 19:20:00 - [266] we have actually repeatedly mentioned this, but everybody seems to be in the habit of ostritch holing thier head in the ground and yelling NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE. ^^ highly professional dont you think? Originally by: Kan3r Blaze Originally by: Sick Boy Ok I don't post a lot but the amount alek is lying is amazing. He should be ashamed of himself as a man. He has doctored the original deal contract chat log. The part he is leaving out that is important is that I SPECIFICALLY told him that PL had left system and that their would be no need to attack everyhthing around x-7 because the enemy was no longer there. I told him the SPECIFIC target was now MUTINY alliance in the ONE system of ROIR. Even the leaders of MUTINY know they were NOIRs target. Not like it was a surprise to anyone. So for alek to say that the contract was for EVERYTHING around is a complete lie and deep down he knows it, mutiny knows it, but he comes on here and lies to everyone and his own members about what the true contract was. Why would I care about roaming NC gangs? SO keep lying about what the contract really was alek, and that is all I am going to say about this situation. May I ask why you've only now just brought that up after 5 days, and why you didn't mention it in any one of your four other posts in this thread? One image per signature please. Zymurgist
Fat Freddy	Posted - 2009.11.16 19:35:00 - [267] You almost had this thread drop out of sight, then you brought it back again... If I were Maru'Kage I'd let this thread quietly die, lay low and it'll all be forgotten soon enough, however, you insist on posting replies. Sorry but you replies just seem like wheedling (that is a word btw) and make you appear even more fail, if that's possible. Fred
Raelyf The Bastards	Posted - 2009.11.16 19:57:00 - [268] Quote: we have actually repeatedly mentioned this, but everybody seems to be in the habit of ostritch holing thier head in the ground and yelling NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE. Could you quote where it was stated, prior to Sick Boys' latest post, that the terms and convos posted by Alek were made up? I seem to have missed it. Rae
James Tritanius	Posted - 2009.11.16 20:00:00 - [269] Headline News: MK attempts to salvage dignity, but fails again. Oh wait, that's not news...
Awesome Possum Imperium Signal Corps	Posted - 2009.11.16 20:05:00 - [270] proof or stfu i.e. high def/high res screen shots ♥ Wreck Disposal Services

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