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The Legion still sucks. It really, really sucks.

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TheLordofAllandNothing Caldari NailorTech Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.19 14:37:00 - [181] So nothing from ccp on this, do they just not care about the sheer awfulness of the legion or can they just not be bothered fixing it. Any input at the moment would be nice _______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =(
sirfroggy	Posted - 2010.07.01 00:11:00 - [182] I also dont understand ccps neglect on the issue, simply put the stats just dont lie, the legion definetly needs a boost. I had always thought that ccp prided themselves on having a well balanced game, but there is just no excuse for this.
Gwydion Telcontar Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.07.01 01:10:00 - [183] You guys are spoiled by how good the zealot (and laser ships in general) are. Of course the proteus and tengu totally outshine their HAC counterparts... we are talking the deimos and cerb here. The legion being a better zealot in both short (heh) and long ranges is awesome. I agree the legion could use some dps on its covert configuration though.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.01 11:17:00 - [184] Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar You guys are spoiled by how good the zealot (and laser ships in general) are. Of course the proteus and tengu totally outshine their HAC counterparts... we are talking the deimos and cerb here. Fun fact: proteus and tengu also outshine hac counterparts of "uber" race, namely: zealot and sacrilege. Dam they are so good that they are better than fotm hac O_o. And cerb is prolly one of best hacs in game IF you know how to use it. Seems you dont. Makes most/all of your post invalid...
Headerman	Posted - 2010.07.01 11:55:00 - [185] None of them are as good as a Loki with the web bonus. ACs FTW
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2010.07.01 12:27:00 - [186] Originally by: Headerman None of them are as good as a Loki with the web bonus. ACs FTW Depends on how you want to fly it. I LOVE my loki for sure, but sometimes you'd want a proteus or tengu for the damage.... You know what you wouldn't be thinking of ? A Legion
Headerman	Posted - 2010.07.01 12:34:00 - [187] Originally by: Katarlia Simov Originally by: Headerman None of them are as good as a Loki with the web bonus. ACs FTW Depends on how you want to fly it. I LOVE my loki for sure, but sometimes you'd want a proteus or tengu for the damage.... You know what you wouldn't be thinking of ? A Legion Yeah some extra damage might be nice for sure. Meh legion
Gwydion Telcontar Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.07.01 14:36:00 - [188] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Fun fact: proteus and tengu also outshine hac counterparts of "uber" race, namely: zealot and sacrilege. Dam they are so good that they are better than fotm hac O_o. And cerb is prolly one of best hacs in game IF you know how to use it. Seems you dont. Makes most/all of your post invalid... Neither fun nor a fact... total posting failure. You should get that checked. As to the legion, it is an upgrade to its race's HACS, same as the other T3 cruisers. Small tweaks to the covert subsystem yes, the rest no need.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.07.01 14:52:00 - [189] Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar Neither fun nor a fact... total posting failure. You should get that checked. As to the legion, it is an upgrade to its race's HACS, same as the other T3 cruisers. Small tweaks to the covert subsystem yes, the rest no need. Wrong. Its a fact that tengu is much better than nighthawk and proteus is much better than astarte. Legion need much more than small tweak...
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2010.07.01 16:06:00 - [190] Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar You guys are spoiled by how good the zealot (and laser ships in general) are. Lol wake up, we're in 2010 and the minmatar ships are FOTM
Gwydion Telcontar Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.07.01 16:21:00 - [191] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Wrong. Its a fact that tengu is much better than nighthawk and proteus is much better than astarte. Legion need much more than small tweak... Are you saying the legion isn't better than the absolution, when configured to boost? You can't compare proteus to the astarte anyway.. the astarte again is absolute **** (like the deimos), OF COURSE it is way better. I agree the legion needs a small tweak to its covert subsystem definately.
Gwydion Telcontar Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.07.01 16:26:00 - [192] Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Lol wake up, we're in 2010 and the minmatar ships are FOTM Hehe quite right. However boosting projectiles in no way suddenly made the zealot and lasers crap. They are as good as they have ever been.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.07.01 17:21:00 - [193] Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar ... I said you are wrong when you are saying deva is not stating facts /though they are not fun/ and that is fact that caldari and gallente t3s are much better than their command ships. Is legion much better than abso? No, its only advantage is cruiser sig radius and range bonus. When comparing gank/tank, legion is actually worse than abso. Can you say that about tengu and nighthawk or proteus and astarte /not to say that proteus has scram bonus/? Absolution configured to boost? Never heard about it.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.01 19:48:00 - [194] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/07/2010 19:49:28 Exactly as above. Both prot and tengu are major boost over command ships of their respective races. Legion is just barely better zealot (or abso with range bonu) but difference isnt that huge. You tried to imply that prot and tengu are better than gall/caldari HACs because both deimos and cerb suck (also this is the part where i pointed out you have no clue - as cerb is awesome hac with quite limited role but excelling at that role). But: they are also better THAN legion in similiar job. Put pulses or rails on proteus and it will outdamage or outrange+outdamage any legion setup. Put heavies on tengu and it will outdamage and outrange any legion setup. As a result the next logical step after zealot should be proteus. Or tengu. Legion is just ship for amarr purists and thats it. Oh yea and for people who want to stay in c3 wormholes for few months (ammo use on lazors... tho you will want to get out with loot anyways). Other than that you can find plenty of ships which can double up its role or be plain better at it, namely: being covops ganker, missile spammer, short range damage dealer, long range damage dealer, hell even nosf+drones (curse). Boost abso? You mean active tank? If yes - its just few % better (33% compared to 50%) - but thats NPCing fit anyways. And only reason you would use it over battleship is c3 WH where sig matters.
Gwydion Telcontar Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.07.01 20:33:00 - [195] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Legion is just barely better zealot (or abso with range bonu) but difference isnt that huge. Again, the reason this is true is because the zealot is OMFG better than the deimos (diemost, remember? that isn't a cliche). The tengu and cerb is irrelevent. Maybe the tengu is way overpowered for a T3 ship? I don't know, I don't fly caldari. No way is the proteus overpowered, but yes it is definately better than the deimos... and it ****ing should be since again the deimos sucks.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.01 22:24:00 - [196] Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar Originally by: Deva Blackfire Legion is just barely better zealot (or abso with range bonu) but difference isnt that huge. Again, the reason this is true is because the zealot is OMFG better than the deimos (diemost, remember? that isn't a cliche). The tengu and cerb is irrelevent. Maybe the tengu is way overpowered for a T3 ship? I don't know, I don't fly caldari. No way is the proteus overpowered, but yes it is definately better than the deimos... and it **ing should be since again the deimos sucks. Lol it really shows you have no clue. When it comes to pvp there is ABSOLUTELY no better t3 than proteus. You try to say proteus is so good because its upgrade over deimos. And im saying PUT LEGION AND PROTEUS HEAD TO HEAD and proteus will ALWAYS be better. Understood? Or still not? Or maybe this way: put lasers on proteus and it WILL be better than legion. Put rails on proteus and try fighting against PULSE legion in PULSE range and proteus WILL be better. And in all above cases exchange "proteus" with "tengu". Result will be same - tengu will beat out of legion every time (well there are FEW cases where it wont but thats exception proving the rule). So no - they are not better because "hacs suck". They are better because they all over the legion. Or in other words: legion is so bad that it doesnt take much for other t3 to be better than it. I only dunno where loki stands in this comparison line, but as few people here (or in other threads) stated it is also better than legion in most cases. So rly stop comparing legion to zealot. I dont give ** about zealot. This is legion rebalance thread in comparison with other t3 ships not t2 or t1. Noone cares about t2 or t1. Understood again?
Noguchi Raijin Order of the Griffin	Posted - 2010.07.01 22:36:00 - [197] Originally by: Mr Floydy I've noticed a lot of people's main complaint is the low dps next to a blaster proteus - taking drones out of the equation there doesn't seem to be so much in it at all, HPL track better and also have much nicer range than the Proteus can manage Base tracking Heavy Neutron Blaster II - .1 rad/sec Heavy Pulse Laser II - .08125 rad/sec Dissonic Encoding Platform Subsystem Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per level 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret falloff per level 7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret tracking per level.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.01 22:56:00 - [198] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/07/2010 22:58:31 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/07/2010 22:56:17 Originally by: Noguchi Raijin Originally by: Mr Floydy I've noticed a lot of people's main complaint is the low dps next to a blaster proteus - taking drones out of the equation there doesn't seem to be so much in it at all, HPL track better and also have much nicer range than the Proteus can manage Base tracking Heavy Neutron Blaster II - .1 rad/sec Heavy Pulse Laser II - .08125 rad/sec Dissonic Encoding Platform Subsystem Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per level 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret falloff per level 7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret tracking per level. Its not about tracking numbers but tracking numbers vs range. BUT people who compare that tend to forget that proteus gets scrambler range module and can pretty much reduce all tracking issues within 20km by turning off enemy MWD. As far as "and also have much nicer range than the Proteus can manage" goes - nothing stops you from putting lasers on proteus. Or rails (sure, worse tracking but you can fix it by using scrambler and keeping enemy at around 17km). Worth noting - rail proteus (hybrid armature) outdamages pulse zealot. In all ranges :) Also noone sane uses dissonic encoding. Its useless. you gain some tracking (which you dont need if you know how to fly blasterboat) but lose drones. Drones = dps and anti-frig system (+ you can hold spare ecm drones if needed).
Sigras	Posted - 2010.07.03 06:40:00 - [199] Originally by: Deva Blackfire SNIP And im saying PUT LEGION AND PROTEUS HEAD TO HEAD and proteus will ALWAYS be better. Understood? Or still not? Or maybe this way: put lasers on proteus and it WILL be better than legion. Put rails on proteus and try fighting against PULSE legion in PULSE range and proteus WILL be better. And in all above cases exchange "proteus" with "tengu". Result will be same - tengu will beat ** out of legion every time (well there are FEW cases where it wont but thats exception proving the rule). So no - they are not better because "hacs suck". They are better because they all over the legion. Or in other words: legion is so bad that it doesnt take much for other t3 to be better than it. I only dunno where loki stands in this comparison line, but as few people here (or in other threads) stated it is also better than legion in most cases. So rly stop comparing legion to zealot. I dont give ** about zealot. This is legion rebalance thread in comparison with other t3 ships not t2 or t1. Noone cares about t2 or t1. Understood again? wow anger much? anyway, i tried my hand at fitting these ships and i defy you to come up with a better 100 KM sniper cruiser than the Legion [Legion, Snipe] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II Sensor Booster II Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier notice no faction/deadspace/officer mods, no T2 rigs, nothing like that; it has 52,400 EHP goes 1750 m/s and does 314 DPS the proteus is the only ship that comes close with 51,500 DPS going 1,600 m/s and doing 253 DPS . . . in fact I might even take the sniper zealot over that . . . maybe . . . I guess the point is learn how to fit your ship and dont try to make it do what it isnt designed to do. Additionally, I dont see where the Tengu is that much better with assault missiles either . . . yeah, it does more damage and has a bit more range, but the legion is a bit faster, has more EHP and has full tackle as opposed to a single warp disruptor . . . I would like to see a fit that challenges the Legion with HAMs
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.03 10:42:00 - [200] Awesome legion. I will give you sniper cruiser that outdamages it easily: cerberus (440ish DPS up to 170km using rages). Tengu does tad more but with tad shorter range. Plus as you wanted 100km flight time of missiles becomes less of an issue. Quote: I guess the point is learn how to fit your ship and dont try to make it do what it isnt designed to do. Pretty much what you did. You took inferior 100km sniper. And in reality i wouldnt use that cerb at 100km sniperfests because battleships can easily fill that spot. As for tengu vs legion - the "bit more damage" in ham setup comes to around 250dps difference (550ish vs 800ish). Typical HAM setups for both tengu and legion: [Tengu, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Faint Warp Disruptor I Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile x5 Medium Core Defence Field Extender I x3 // 700dps, 124k ehp, 1287m/s [Legion, Plategank 1 (ham)] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Domination Stasis Webifier Target Painter II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Rage Assault Missile x6 Medium Trimark Armor Pump I x3 // 587dps, 119k ehp, 1380m/s. Sure legion gets full tackle but in most cases its not needed. Scrambler/disruptor alone is enough. So similiar stats but 36% (over 1/3) dps more on tengu. If i REALLY wanted to have tengu to be faster than legion i can drop 1BCU and add nano/overdrive. And ill still outdamage it and be faster. Laser legions arent stellar either. Sure you can play the "36km long range card !!!" but tengu can load javelins and hit over 40. All in all - there is no role (except PVE and 2-3 "weird" setups) where you cant find ship that outdoes legion.
Obyrith	Posted - 2010.07.03 11:32:00 - [201] Edited by: Obyrith on 03/07/2010 11:32:25 nm
Dray Caldari R U D E	Posted - 2010.07.03 12:10:00 - [202] I can fly Cal, Mini, and Gal T3 with sub skills all at 5, I didn't even bother with the Legion, there's just no point, it's sub par to the rest and it's not even open to debate, so you can buffer the living sh*t out of it, big deal you can do that with the Proteus, not as good, but near enough as to not make enough of a difference to matter. I'm not going to suggest what the fix should be, but it definitely needs something, obvious choice would be damage/turret.
Veliria	Posted - 2010.07.03 12:58:00 - [203] Give it a 50m3 drone bay on the Covert Ops sub system and 25m3 on the Laser and HAM subsystem. More DPS and versatility for those subs, making them more useful. Drone sub needs more drone bandwidth (75m3?) and a stronger drone dps/health bonus. Also, reduce the amount of mids and increase the amount of lows. It's an Amarr ship ffs, it should be more towards 7-6 lows and 3-4 mids, not 5-5.
Gligan	Posted - 2010.07.03 13:17:00 - [204] Edited by: Gligan on 03/07/2010 13:18:51 just 1 question , what happens if you get double webbed by a minmatar recon. I sure hope your 700 blaster dps can go more than 5km.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.03 14:00:00 - [205] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/07/2010 14:03:45 Originally by: Gligan Edited by: Gligan on 03/07/2010 13:18:51 just 1 question , what happens if you get double webbed by a minmatar recon. I sure hope your 700 blaster dps can go more than 5km. Damn you are right. There is no point flying anything with optimal shorter than 40km. Damn you dualweb huginns ! And seriously: you shouldnt fly proteus EVER if your only plan is getting webbed by minmatar recon outside of your scram range. And in scram range (that being 21km on my prot)? Either ECM drones to break his one cycle and then burn to him/kill him or just go back to gate/whatever and jump out. Its not like minnie recon will kill passive prot faster than 5 minutes anyways. Quote: Give it a 50m3 drone bay on the Covert Ops sub system and 25m3 on the Laser and HAM subsystem. More DPS and versatility for those subs, making them more useful. Drone sub needs more drone bandwidth (75m3?) and a stronger drone dps/health bonus. Also, reduce the amount of mids and increase the amount of lows. It's an Amarr ship ffs, it should be more towards 7-6 lows and 3-4 mids, not 5-5. Pretty much this.
Hannibal Ord Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.07.03 18:35:00 - [206] Legion can be fit to make a zealot with more dps and hp plus interdiction nullifier and have the same engagement range. Like all other races it can also be made into the sniper command ship from this basic design. Just like the Loki can do the muninn and the Tengu can do the cerberus. The Proteus does a variety of other roles better than it's hac counterparts, such as better deimos, cloaky gank deimos etc. The legion also does the PVE thing quite well. Other than the SNAC setup and the PVE setup, the legion doesn't have any role that is better than it's T2 command ships and cruisers. This can be attributed, to the fact that Amarr tech 2 ships are incredible balanced and powerful. It possibly needs a small tweak, as does the Loki to some extent. The Gallente and Caldari T3 ships are perfectly balanced as they are. It does not need too much tweaking though. It's more an issue that it lacks DPS when heavily tanked. Unlike the other 3 T3 which can fit a 100k ehp tank with over 450dps.
Sigras	Posted - 2010.07.03 18:40:00 - [207] Wow, +1 for a 100km sniper boat with 12+ second missile travel time. . . I'm sorry but there is a reason that the zealot is widely considered the #1 HAC for 100km sniping and not the Cerberus. Additionally, please tell me you don't actually use tech two missiles and you were just using them for comparison sake, if not, I think we're done here.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.03 19:02:00 - [208] Originally by: Sigras Wow, +1 for a 100km sniper boat with 12+ second missile travel time. . . I'm sorry but there is a reason that the zealot is widely considered the #1 HAC for 100km sniping and not the Cerberus. Additionally, please tell me you don't actually use tech two missiles and you were just using them for comparison sake, if not, I think we're done here. Zealot is considered #1 sniper hac because 99% of the players here cant understand how to fly cerberus properly - dont worry, you are in those 99%. And yes i used fury missiles, they have 170km range and 10km/s velocity. Well enough for 100+km sniping and they hit LSE hacs quite ok. So if you WOULDNT use fury missiles it means you have literally no clue how missile system works, how cerberus works and how to use it. So you should be last person making ANY comments about cerb or its comparison to gun snipers. Thank you.
Hannibal Ord Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.07.03 19:13:00 - [209] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Sigras Wow, +1 for a 100km sniper boat with 12+ second missile travel time. . . I'm sorry but there is a reason that the zealot is widely considered the #1 HAC for 100km sniping and not the Cerberus. Additionally, please tell me you don't actually use tech two missiles and you were just using them for comparison sake, if not, I think we're done here. Zealot is considered #1 sniper hac because 99% of the players here cant understand how to fly cerberus properly - dont worry, you are in those 99%. And yes i used fury missiles, they have 170km range and 10km/s velocity. Well enough for 100+km sniping and they hit LSE hacs quite ok. So if you WOULDNT use fury missiles it means you have literally no clue how missile system works, how cerberus works and how to use it. So you should be last person making ANY comments about cerb or its comparison to gun snipers. Thank you. Anyone with half a brain is not denying the Cerb is a good sniper ship. But despite it's excellent range and dps, it falls second to the muninn and zealot because those ships will hit a target say two or 3 times before a long range cerb will have hit it once. And you are right, Fury is awesome. As someone who flies the cerb I appreciate what it does. But I know that a Muninn or Zealot is superior, only because they do decent DPS/Volley damage and they hit instantly.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.03 19:22:00 - [210] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/07/2010 19:24:32 They are not superior. Tehy are different and with different roles. Cerb should never sit at 100km range because other hacs (zealot/muminn) can hit it back. There is a reason why it can easily reach 180-220km ranges. As for zealot alpha... its pathetic at best. It is 3x lower than cerb alpha so it needs around 7,5 seconds to tie with it (or 5 seconds if you count 1st shot being at 0 seconds). Cerb catches up quite fast. Pretty much as long as you arent popping frigs/untanked cruisers (and in some cases HACs with larbe blob of zealots) cerbs will easily outrun zealots in damage dealing. Mostly because of pure DPS numbers. Still one or another, both are different. For me prefered one is cerb mostly for range flexibility (and lol-cant-touch-me vs frigs in 100km radius). Back to legion? It sucks. Even if its better zealot... ummm why would you pay 500m to sit in sniperHAC blob and die as soon as sometimes tackles/alphas you? Sniperlegion gets circa 50-60k EHP (? figures from thread, never done fits for sniper one) which means instapop vs larger blobs.

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