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Deva Blackfire
Cry Me a River INC
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Posted - 2010.01.22 17:30:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 22/01/2010 17:33:23
Quote:
Quote: What you talk of is a facet of blaster warfare, it's not specific to the Proteus. The difference is whilst most other blaster-boats have drawbacks, Proteus can do the whole gank thing whilst simultaneously having 200k+ EHP in a cruiser hull.
So, it's nice for 0km ganking, absolutely unusable for everything else?
If you cant find a use for 250k (or 400k) EHP cruisersized blaster/droneboat then fly something else. Noone is forcing you to fly proteus. On the other hand those who fly it and actually know the difference between 30k ehp 750dps deimos and 250k ehp 750dps proteus are quite glad how awesome it is. Or if you want range - just use hybrid armature + rails. You can be sure you will both outrange and outdps pulse legion at ranges larger than 12km.
Quote: be careful with your wishes please. the total revamp might destroy nice setups on other t3 cruiser. (*hides his ham tengu to hope it survives*)
HAM tengu is nice indeed tho id love to actually fit 2x LSE on 6x HAM one. Unfortunately its crap to fit (grid issues) and will always end up with 150-180k EHP (might be a bit over 200 with CN invuls on overheat but wont even come close to armor tankers ehp in similiar setup). Price to pay for 950dps (kinetic) and good range i guess :X
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.01.22 17:41:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Quote: be careful with your wishes please. the total revamp might destroy nice setups on other t3 cruiser. (*hides his ham tengu to hope it survives*)
HAM tengu is nice indeed tho id love to actually fit 2x LSE on 6x HAM one. Unfortunately its crap to fit (grid issues) and will always end up with 150-180k EHP (might be a bit over 200 with CN invuls on overheat but wont even come close to armor tankers ehp in similiar setup). Price to pay for 950dps (kinetic) and good range i guess :X
active tanked with 5 launchers for me.
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Mr McFail
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Posted - 2010.01.22 17:49:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Mr McFail on 22/01/2010 17:49:33
Legion sucks does it?
http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=37344
http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=37997
Doesn't seem that way for me, that legion and proteus make one hell of a combination.
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Deva Blackfire
Cry Me a River INC
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Posted - 2010.01.22 20:07:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Mr McFail Edited by: Mr McFail on 22/01/2010 17:49:33
Legion sucks does it?
http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=37344
http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=37997
Doesn't seem that way for me, that legion and proteus make one hell of a combination.
I can do the same with raven + scimmy or just one deadspace fit tengu so dunno what are you trying to prove. Actually looking at rr sniper battleships (lol) you could prolly do this in a sleipnir...
Random killmails of random badfits doesnt really show if one ship is good or no.
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MalVortex
Reaper Industries Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.01.22 22:53:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Mr McFail Edited by: Mr McFail on 22/01/2010 17:49:33
Legion sucks does it?
http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=37344
http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=37997
Doesn't seem that way for me, that legion and proteus make one hell of a combination.
Your name is the telling point in this post. A properly fit bad ship will kill improperly fit bad players non-shocker.
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2010.01.23 00:46:00 -
[96]
Here's the real story guys....
Let's stop thinking so much about comparing one t3 ship directly to another, and talk about utility. I'm not so fussed with the fact that the legion isn't the same ship as the other t3's.
Legion makes a far superior close range zealot Legion makes a far superior sniper zealot legion makes a far superior sacrilege
So far we are good... the ship is worth something. Where we go all wrong is the covert config. The subs/bonuses need to be made so that the legion can be configured into a slightly better pilgrim. The covert config's just suck at the moment.... CCP here's where you need to fix the legion. We have no range bonus to neuts, so obviously it's gonna compare to the pilgrim instead of the curse.... but there is no reason to ever choose a legion over a pilgrim with the current options. Crappy DPS, still meh tank, insignificant dps via drones, and you get to miss some of the nice bonuses such as the TP bonus that make it all work in the pilgrim. In this config, the ship should retain the TP bonus, the dps via drones needs to improve, etc etc etc. Give us a better pilgrim setup for our covert config, and you've essentially fixed the legion.
Sure it still won't be an uber tank, or an uber dps ship, but a pilgrim with only a slight increase in tank, and a slight increase in dps, would be WELL worth the costs associated with upgrading to t3.
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MalVortex
Reaper Industries Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.01.23 01:40:00 -
[97]
Edited by: MalVortex on 23/01/2010 01:40:43
Originally by: Tom Peeping Here's the real story guys....
Let's stop thinking so much about comparing one t3 ship directly to another, and talk about utility. I'm not so fussed with the fact that the legion isn't the same ship as the other t3's.
So you don't mind that the Legion sucks compared to other T3s. Cool.
Quote:
Legion makes a far superior close range zealot
You don't use zealots in close range. The lack of any form of close defense option against frigates is abysmal on the zealot, let alone on a 500mil isk ship. Even then, the legion really doesn't out DPS the zealot at all, with 9 effective turrets on the legion vs. 8.3125 effective turrets on the zealot). The real comparison here is to either the Omen Navy (drones + neut), or the Absolution. Both will outdamage the Legion, and the Absolution will outtank it.
Quote:
Legion makes a far superior sniper zealot
Only the very rich can afford to use a sniper legion as part of a HAC gang. It brings no extra damage or tracking to the table over the Zealot, just extra buffer. This is of limited use, as you are guaranteed primary. A legion next to 20 sniping zealots kind of stands out.
Quote:
legion makes a far superior sacrilege
The Sac kind of sucks. Its only real use is an afterburning/active tanking heavy tackle ship. It would be considerably better in the relative sense if the Drake didn't exist. The HAM drake beats out both the Sac and the Legion, and takes all of 3 days to cross-train into (caldari cruiser 3).
Quote:
So far we are good... the ship is worth something.
Er?
Quote:
Where we go all wrong is the covert config. The subs/bonuses need to be made so that the legion can be configured into a slightly better pilgrim.
Even if you changed the covert configuration to +25% dps, a laser pilgrim would still outdamage the legion, with a damn close tank. Thats how sad the covert configuration really is. Even with 25% ROF (congratulations, you now outdps a pilgrim), it still has no anti-tackle defense. The proteus in such configuration not only runs around with 400dps, but a 25/100 dronebay for anti-tackle, ECM, and auxilary damage.
Quote:
The covert config's just suck at the moment.... CCP here's where you need to fix the legion. We have no range bonus to neuts, so obviously it's gonna compare to the pilgrim instead of the curse....
Parasitic complex has half the Pilgrim's neut strength, nevermind the curse's range and power.
Quote:
Crappy DPS, still meh tank, insignificant dps via drones,
Only way a legion gets a dronebay is the drone offensive sub, which is nothing more than a clever troll by CCP. Two bonuses for worse drones than T1 droneships wooo~
Quote:
and you get to miss some of the nice bonuses such as the TP bonus that make it all work in the pilgrim. In this config, the ship should retain the TP bonus, the dps via drones needs to improve, etc etc etc. Give us a better pilgrim setup for our covert config, and you've essentially fixed the legion.
You mean TD here. Even if you increased the DPS on the covert configuration, it doesn't matter. It is *still* outganked by a laser pilgrim, still has no neuts, no TDs, no tank, and no drones. It woudln't change a damn thing.
Quote:
Sure it still won't be an uber tank, or an uber dps ship, but a pilgrim with only a slight increase in tank, and a slight increase in dps, would be WELL worth the costs associated with upgrading to t3.
Faction fit your pilgrim. It will cost less and do the job far better. What the legion needs is a complete reset, not a tiny buff here and there.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.01.23 09:29:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Its superior to others...
I will admit I missed the 'or' part. Even still, I stand by the fact that you have to get close to do that dps.
I have stated that I agree that:
- Nos/Neut bonus should be for range in addition to amount. - +1 additional turret slot. - covert reconfig bonus should be adjusted.
Other than that is seems like there is a awful lot of "Make Legion do damage like Proteus without the risk" crying.
If you really want that kind of damage and tank, then cross train to the Proteus.
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Deva Blackfire
Cry Me a River INC
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Posted - 2010.01.23 17:38:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Its superior to others...
I will admit I missed the 'or' part. Even still, I stand by the fact that you have to get close to do that dps.
I have stated that I agree that:
- Nos/Neut bonus should be for range in addition to amount. - +1 additional turret slot. - covert reconfig bonus should be adjusted.
Other than that is seems like there is a awful lot of "Make Legion do damage like Proteus without the risk" crying.
If you really want that kind of damage and tank, then cross train to the Proteus.
No **** sherlock. I already fly proteus becaue its... superior? And noone wanted "damage like proteus". You created this in your own mind during some poasting-rage i guess. So better read up the thread (and properly this time) or stop dropping random crap all over the place.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.01.24 07:44:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
So what do you want then? You seem like you have a lot of tears that you just want to let out regardless of any suggestions, comments or criticism. If that is the case take them somewhere else.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.01.24 11:03:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
So what do you want then? You seem like you have a lot of tears that you just want to let out regardless of any suggestions, comments or criticism. If that is the case take them somewhere else.
I think he wants it to be worth considering over the T1/T2 Amarr ships that already exist, which is not too much to ask surely?
Zealot is a more practical sniper. Absolution is a far better tank/DPS pulse-range ship. Pilgrim is far better at neuting.
It's a telling statement that the best application of the Legion is being sat in space (unprobeable) providing bonuses to other ships that are actually practically beneficial to the fleet beyond providing the enemy with a nice KB stat boost.
If you look at the Tengu or the Proteus however there are setups on both ships where there is frankly nothing else available that touches them. If you can afford either ship you can do things with them that simply isn't possible on T2.
The problem with the Legion (forgetting obvious things like the covops subsystem) is that unlike the other T3s where your ability to afford them is the only limiting factor, flying the Legion is like flashing ISK around for no good reason at all.
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Deva Blackfire
Cry Me a River INC
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Posted - 2010.01.24 15:27:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
So what do you want then? You seem like you have a lot of tears that you just want to let out regardless of any suggestions, comments or criticism. If that is the case take them somewhere else.
Im quite sure i told you to read up the thread. And im quite sure i told you this multiple times. So do your homework and read the ef up and you will have ALL your questions answered. I cant be bothered to re-post same stuff for one person who is unable to comprehend it while reading for the 1st time. Fortunately other posters from this thread actually managed to pass basic reading lessons.
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Mr McFail
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Posted - 2010.01.24 19:47:00 -
[103]
Originally by: MalVortex Your name is the telling point in this post. A properly fit bad ship will kill improperly fit bad players non-shocker.
Oh please, get of your high horse - the legion is fine... Not my fault you SUCK at fitting it.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.01.24 19:51:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.01.24 20:48:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Mr McFail
Originally by: MalVortex Your name is the telling point in this post. A properly fit bad ship will kill improperly fit bad players non-shocker.
Oh please, get of your high horse - the legion is fine... Not my fault you SUCK at fitting it.
maybe you can share your wisdom?
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Mr McFail
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Posted - 2010.01.24 21:38:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Mr McFail on 24/01/2010 21:38:22
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Mr McFail
Originally by: MalVortex Your name is the telling point in this post. A properly fit bad ship will kill improperly fit bad players non-shocker.
Oh please, get of your high horse - the legion is fine... Not my fault you SUCK at fitting it.
maybe you can share your wisdom?
That's easy.
I don't expect all ships of a type and class to perform exactly the same as each other, each t3 ship has a role that it is better at than the others, the legion isn't a gank ship - it's better suited for support.
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Deva Blackfire
Cry Me a River INC
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Posted - 2010.01.24 21:41:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Mr McFail
I don't expect all ships of a type and class to perform exactly the same as each other, each t3 ship has a role that it is better at than the others, the legion isn't a gank ship - it's better suited for support.
So what support role does it excel at where you cant find cheaper and better choice that is not legion? Im waiting for some examples. Yeh i know t3 warfare subsystem gives 5% over 3% on commands but thats it plus all commands get this one - so this one gets ruled out by default.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.01.24 22:13:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Mr McFail
That's easy.
I don't expect all ships of a type and class to perform exactly the same as each other, each t3 ship has a role that it is better at than the others, the legion isn't a gank ship - it's better suited for support.
did you see the discussion on the missile subsystems for tengu and legion?
the legion subsystem which has more disadvantages than the tengu, already comes with pre-nerfed bonuses. how is that good game design?
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Mr McFail
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Posted - 2010.01.25 13:27:00 -
[109]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Mr McFail
That's easy.
I don't expect all ships of a type and class to perform exactly the same as each other, each t3 ship has a role that it is better at than the others, the legion isn't a gank ship - it's better suited for support.
did you see the discussion on the missile subsystems for tengu and legion?
the legion subsystem which has more disadvantages than the tengu, already comes with pre-nerfed bonuses. how is that good game design?
Caldari ships have always been superior in the missile department, pretty much every Caldari ship will utilise missiles better than an Amarr one.
You don't see the Tengu matching the Legion in Lasers.
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Deva Blackfire
Cry Me a River INC
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Posted - 2010.01.25 14:34:00 -
[110]
Actually the only 2 missile ships that can be compared (amarr vs caldari) are sacri and cerb. Sacri gets HAM damage bonus, cerb gets all missile (but only kinetic) damage bonus = balanced. Both get same ROF bonus = balanced. Sacri gets tank, cerb gets range = still balanced. And then enter tengu and legion. Tank = similiar. Gank = tengu is better. Range = tengu is better. We could compare vengeance and hawk, flycatcher and heretic nd you will find same stuff. One has range other tank.
So yes like i stated earlier - legion missile subsystem is massively underpowered compared to tengu one. Not only it has only 2 bonuses (where tengu gets 3) but also one of those bonuses is WEAKER than tengu one.
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IceAero
Amarr Shadow Company THE KLINGONS
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Posted - 2010.01.27 18:47:00 -
[111]
I'm attempting to move this discussion to the Features and Idea forum where it belongs.
I've posted some well-thought-out ideas (I hope), and I encourage you all to post feedback and your own ideas there as well.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1258583
I understand we have some differences in logic, but we all agree whole-heartily the ship needs love, badly.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2010.01.30 02:42:00 -
[112]
I tried to be polite. No effect. Know now, ye fellow posters, of my heroism - I shall attract dev attention by sacrificing myself on the altar of moderation.
Pardon me for my profanity and imminent forum ban but THIS SHIP SUCKS DICK oh god so much dick. Wheelbarrows full of wiggly jiggly dick. Dumptrucks. Dick-trucks. The Legion sucks as many dicks, as there are grains of sand on earth.
Look, look up, cast your eyes into the nighttime heavens. Count the countless stars. Each of those stars is a sloppy dick, and the Legion is sucking it. For the Legion's internal mouth volume to accomodate such a pantheon of dancing, dripping dicks, it would have to effectively be boundless; it cannot be calculated or grasped by the limited human mind. It must extend into fantastic infinity to accomodate this absolute, unending onslaught of dicks that it is sucking.
In conclusion the Legion sucks dicks. pls fix. |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2010.01.30 02:49:00 -
[113]
See you in a month, Eve Online forums!
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MalVortex
Reaper Industries Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.01.30 04:30:00 -
[114]
Your sacrifice will not be in vain, Istvaan!
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2010.01.30 17:42:00 -
[115]
Legion isn't horrible but if you compare subsystems to T2 variants it's pretty weak and seems somewhat useless for a price you need to pay to make it work at all: deadspace/faction modules etc...
This far I've figured that legion would make: 1) sacrilege 2) zealot 3) crappy expensive pilgrim
I don't understand why would I pay for expensive sacrilege when I already have one. And only need t2 modules to make it work. Also if fitting for active tank it seems a bit fragile for T3, no buffer or whatsoever etc. Also seems to have cap problems even with booster and top notch modules... Only thing I can imagine Legion doing well is PvE in level 4 missions or C3 wormholes.
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Mr McFail
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Posted - 2010.02.01 00:11:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Mr McFail on 01/02/2010 00:12:18
Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Also if fitting for active tank it seems a bit fragile for T3, no buffer or whatsoever etc. Also seems to have cap problems even with booster and top notch modules...
My Legion not only tanks 740~ DPS with standard faction eanm's and a plex repper + t2 rigs, it dishes out 440~ dps while being 52% cap stable using conflagration m's, you were saying?
All I see in this thread are people who don't actually know how to fit a ship for ****.
Legion is fine as is, thanks.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.02.01 00:54:00 -
[117]
Edited by: darius mclever on 01/02/2010 00:54:07 you only get 740dps out of a faction/deadspace tank? wow!
a tengu gets easily 1600-3000 dps tank with the same.
and please post your fit :D
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Deva Blackfire
Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.01 00:56:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/02/2010 01:00:32 @115
Awesome. You can get better stats on myrmidon for much lower price too.
Edit: Wait, WHAT? That needed FACTION eanms, DEADSPACE repper and t2 RIGS? Lmao. I got 750+ rep on myrm with t2 stuff and t1 rigs... And 550+dps to add to the insult. Or 500ish with neuts to break "permatanking" setups.
To quote you:
Quote: All I see in this thread are people who don't actually know how to fit a ship for ****
Yeh, pretty much you are one of them. Either this or legion is just crap. And considering that legion defensive subsystems are ok (just lacks 1 lowslot compared to proteus) it is prolly bad fit.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.02.01 09:25:00 -
[119]
DAMN THE GODS FOR NOT MAKING AMARR THE BEST IN EVERY SHIP CATEGORY!!!
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.01 10:58:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Mr McFail Edited by: Mr McFail on 01/02/2010 00:12:18
Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Also if fitting for active tank it seems a bit fragile for T3, no buffer or whatsoever etc. Also seems to have cap problems even with booster and top notch modules...
My Legion not only tanks 740~ DPS with standard faction eanm's and a plex repper + t2 rigs, it dishes out 440~ dps while being 52% cap stable using conflagration m's, you were saying?
All I see in this thread are people who don't actually know how to fit a ship for ****.
Legion is fine as is, thanks.
So basically about the same as a dual-rep Absolution, with less DPS, lower resists, no drones and at least 3x the price? Awesome.
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