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rocky mcdigsalot
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Posted - 2004.12.23 14:09:00 -
[91]
To the folks that want to get rid of apoc mining.
I'm a miner.... i can shoot small lasers. I use my apoc to mine. Thats all i use it for. When they cant mine do i get a refund on my skill points? Do elves come from the trees to grease me up with lotion for my wasted time training something?
Leave the BS mining alone. Ive got no desire to mine ice, everyone else is welcome to the ice fields. all i do is mine to build with this toon. I dont want to have to jump back in an osprey for a month while i train up to superbarge.
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rocky mcdigsalot
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Posted - 2004.12.23 14:09:00 -
[92]
To the folks that want to get rid of apoc mining.
I'm a miner.... i can shoot small lasers. I use my apoc to mine. Thats all i use it for. When they cant mine do i get a refund on my skill points? Do elves come from the trees to grease me up with lotion for my wasted time training something?
Leave the BS mining alone. Ive got no desire to mine ice, everyone else is welcome to the ice fields. all i do is mine to build with this toon. I dont want to have to jump back in an osprey for a month while i train up to superbarge.
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Usharin Silverberg
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:19:00 -
[93]
 Originally by: Rephern Muare
all bs's should get hits to mining in them...maybe a 20% hit to mining in them. Then the bs can be in its true role, fighting
Good Idea, that - although I'd make it a 50% hit at the very least...
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Usharin Silverberg
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:19:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Rephern Muare
all bs's should get hits to mining in them...maybe a 20% hit to mining in them. Then the bs can be in its true role, fighting
Good Idea, that - although I'd make it a 50% hit at the very least...
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Lucre
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:37:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Johnny Atlas
Try 540 * 1.05^5 * 1.05^5 * 1.03^5 = 1019
Noone seems to be getting the amounts right. On paper and tested
Covetor = 1019m3 (tested on Sisi)
Apocalypse = 781m3
Retriever = 640m3 (tested on Exodus)
If an Apoc mines 781m3 per minute or 97.625 per laser, how come each laser on my Apoc (mining 5, astro 5) only mines 5 16m3 Ark/Bist per minute?
AFAIK the formula is 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75. Which is thus less than 96 and why I get 5 Bist/laser and not (as your formula/figure would have it) 6.
Likewise, my other character's Med barge pulls in 112 Bist per cycle at Mining 5, Astro 4, Barge 4. Again 540 * 1.25 * 1.20 * 1.12 = 907 m3 = 56 Bist per strip miner. Which is right. Whereas Your method would predict 942m3 or 58 Bist per miner - wrong!
I don't know how you tested these figures, but they don't match what I get!
Effects of individual skills multiply; effects of individual levels in those skills don't.
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Lucre
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:37:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Johnny Atlas
Try 540 * 1.05^5 * 1.05^5 * 1.03^5 = 1019
Noone seems to be getting the amounts right. On paper and tested
Covetor = 1019m3 (tested on Sisi)
Apocalypse = 781m3
Retriever = 640m3 (tested on Exodus)
If an Apoc mines 781m3 per minute or 97.625 per laser, how come each laser on my Apoc (mining 5, astro 5) only mines 5 16m3 Ark/Bist per minute?
AFAIK the formula is 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75. Which is thus less than 96 and why I get 5 Bist/laser and not (as your formula/figure would have it) 6.
Likewise, my other character's Med barge pulls in 112 Bist per cycle at Mining 5, Astro 4, Barge 4. Again 540 * 1.25 * 1.20 * 1.12 = 907 m3 = 56 Bist per strip miner. Which is right. Whereas Your method would predict 942m3 or 58 Bist per miner - wrong!
I don't know how you tested these figures, but they don't match what I get!
Effects of individual skills multiply; effects of individual levels in those skills don't.
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Lucre
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:49:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Idara
Did I miss some extra added bonus? Or are the Mining Barges not all they're *****ed up to be?
Apoc mines 5 Ark/Miner II or 40 Ark per minute.
Large Barge mines 970m3/strip miner/3 minutes or 60 Ark per minute. 1200 Ark/hour more than Apoc.
I'd call a 50% increase in mining capacity reasonably significant, wouldn't you? Say, what, an extra 12 million isk per *hour*? Hardly to be sniffed at!
And that - as others have noted - is with the T1 strip miners...
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Lucre
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:49:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Idara
Did I miss some extra added bonus? Or are the Mining Barges not all they're *****ed up to be?
Apoc mines 5 Ark/Miner II or 40 Ark per minute.
Large Barge mines 970m3/strip miner/3 minutes or 60 Ark per minute. 1200 Ark/hour more than Apoc.
I'd call a 50% increase in mining capacity reasonably significant, wouldn't you? Say, what, an extra 12 million isk per *hour*? Hardly to be sniffed at!
And that - as others have noted - is with the T1 strip miners...
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flummox
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Posted - 2004.12.23 16:43:00 -
[99]
Edited by: flummox on 23/12/2004 17:15:48
2.5 pages and not one mention of the Modulated Strip Miner II or Crystals. and, at a glance, those numbers don't look right. let's check them out again so we can finally put to bed this topic of the barge "not being good enough"...
for the purpose of testing, we will use FULL skills. all values after calcs will be rounded to nearest whole number.
Miner II - (base 60 m3/cycle)
Maximum Output = 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75 m3/cycle
Strip Miner I - (base 540 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output = 540 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 970.3125 m3/cycle
Modulated Strip Miner II - (base 360 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output (w/o Crystal) = 360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 646.875 m3/cycle
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = 360 * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 1694.8125 m3
Okay, let's take a look at the ships...
Apoc w/8 Miner II's
1 Minute Cycle = 744 m3
3 Minute Cycle = 2232 m3
Retriever (Med Barge)
w/2 Strip Miner I's:
1 Minute Cycle = 646.666~ m3
3 Minute Cycle = 1940 m3 <-- Ouch. Med Barge gets pwned!
w/2 Modulated Strip Miner II's (w/Crystal):
1 Minute Cycle = 1129.333~ m3
3 Minute Cycle = 3388 m3 <-- Woah! Apoc gets smacked!
Coveter (Large Barge)
w/3 Strip Miner I's:
1 Minute Cycle = 970 m3
3 Minute Cycle = 2910 m3 <-- Apoc humbled again!
w/3 Modulated Strip Miner II's:
1 Minute Cycle = 1694 m3 <-- Front slap...
3 Minute Cycle = 5082 m3 <-- Backhand Bznitch Slapped!
so, we can see that even a medium barge with the Modded Miners and Crystal is far better than an Apoc. and the Large Barge just 0wnzors the Apoc like a little girl when it comes to mining...
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
flummox
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Posted - 2004.12.23 16:43:00 -
[100]
Edited by: flummox on 23/12/2004 17:15:48
2.5 pages and not one mention of the Modulated Strip Miner II or Crystals. and, at a glance, those numbers don't look right. let's check them out again so we can finally put to bed this topic of the barge "not being good enough"...
for the purpose of testing, we will use FULL skills. all values after calcs will be rounded to nearest whole number.
Miner II - (base 60 m3/cycle)
Maximum Output = 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75 m3/cycle
Strip Miner I - (base 540 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output = 540 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 970.3125 m3/cycle
Modulated Strip Miner II - (base 360 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output (w/o Crystal) = 360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 646.875 m3/cycle
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = 360 * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 1694.8125 m3
Okay, let's take a look at the ships...
Apoc w/8 Miner II's
1 Minute Cycle = 744 m3
3 Minute Cycle = 2232 m3
Retriever (Med Barge)
w/2 Strip Miner I's:
1 Minute Cycle = 646.666~ m3
3 Minute Cycle = 1940 m3 <-- Ouch. Med Barge gets pwned!
w/2 Modulated Strip Miner II's (w/Crystal):
1 Minute Cycle = 1129.333~ m3
3 Minute Cycle = 3388 m3 <-- Woah! Apoc gets smacked!
Coveter (Large Barge)
w/3 Strip Miner I's:
1 Minute Cycle = 970 m3
3 Minute Cycle = 2910 m3 <-- Apoc humbled again!
w/3 Modulated Strip Miner II's:
1 Minute Cycle = 1694 m3 <-- Front slap...
3 Minute Cycle = 5082 m3 <-- Backhand Bznitch Slapped!
so, we can see that even a medium barge with the Modded Miners and Crystal is far better than an Apoc. and the Large Barge just 0wnzors the Apoc like a little girl when it comes to mining...
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
flummox
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Posted - 2004.12.23 16:50:00 -
[101]
this thread should be officially changed to:
Apoc? - Battleship, Miner, or Little Girl ?
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
flummox
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Posted - 2004.12.23 16:50:00 -
[102]
this thread should be officially changed to:
Apoc? - Battleship, Miner, or Little Girl ?
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
Mr Grumpy
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:25:00 -
[103]
Originally by: flummox
Miner II - (base 60 m3/cycle)
Maximum Output = 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75 m3/cycle
Strip Miner I - (base 540 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output = 540 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 970.3125 m3/cycle
Modulated Strip Miner II - (base 360 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output (w/o Crystal) = 360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 646.875 m3/cycle
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = 360 * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 1694.8125 m3
I see where you get the modifiers from (2.62= crystal 162%,1.25 skill modifier etc) but what about the modulated strip miner? Fair enough the base value is 360 units but did you notice the little note at the bottom which reads "specialty crystal mining amount
360 Ore units". Does this mean your calc should read:
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = (360 + 360) * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 3389.625 m3? 
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Neue Regel
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:47:00 -
[104]
I am a new player, 2 months. I have been reserching this issue with mining barges and I find that the that it will be faster for me to research using a apoc rather than the Covetor. I am minmatar, so I have to train Amarr to BS II. That will take me just about 10.5 days with the skills I have.
To train for the Covetor, it will take me 40 days. It is a no brainer for me. The difference in isk I can make in those 30 days compared to what I am now making in my current setup is tremendous. The cost of the BS vrs the Covetror is not an issue for me, I am a miner afterall and make plenty of isk. I know I will end up better off in the long run going the covetor route, Strip Miner II's will be here eventually, but hopefully when I decide to train for it, I will have much better implants and advanced learning by then so maybe the 40 days turn into 30.
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Pyro Miner
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:48:00 -
[105]
i want to add a few + points to the barge
the t2 crystals are able to get 20% more ore from a roid
then a normal miner, so thats a very usefull mining good roids and get more out of them
(if a roid has 100 veldpar inside. you get 120 out of it with the t2 crystals)
dunno if that also works on modulated deep core miners, as i never used those
i also like the 15k range the barge has + the fast llocking speed and i like the 3 min cycle on roids and the 7.5 min cycle on ice.. more relaxing then the 1 min (can play other games while mining in eve  )
downside is that when a roids pops your mining beam is not getting anything for that cycle, that is something ccp must fix that the beam deactives directly when that hapends
and i like how they look 
dont forget you ned to be a uber refiner/miner to be able to use t2 crystals
_______________________________________________
Pyro is the name...
Burning asteroids is my game... |
Tharrn
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:56:00 -
[106]
Bad, bad necroposter :P
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Larno
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:25:00 -
[107]
Well the way I see it, there are 4 combinations, each with their own advantages and disadvantages;
1. Apoc w/Miner II's
Lowest Skill Requirements, Lowest yield, high price, high survivability, may already have ship for PvP, 1 minute cycle, no ice mining
2. Apoc w/Modulated Deep Core Miner II's
Average Skill Requirements, Average yield, Highest Price, high survivability, may already have ship for PvP, 3 minute cycle (must stagger lasers), no ice mining
3. Covetor w/Strip Miner I's
High Skill Requirements, High yield, Lowest Price, Lowest surviability, no use other than mining, 3 minute cycle (can take up to 6 minutes AFK), can ice mine
4. Covetor w/Modulated Strip Miner II's
Highest Skill Requirements, Highest yield, High price, Lowest surviability, no use other than mining, 3 minute cycle (can take up to 6 minutes AFK), can ice mine
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Nero Scuro
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:28:00 -
[108]
If people haven't catched on yet - this post is dead and old. The original poster posted that BEFORE mining barges were released. They quite obviously do not suck, because people fly them all the time.
---
So, what was that you fed me?
Battery acid, mostly.
That must be why I feel charged up! Ho ho!
Actually, you'll just die.
...oh. |
Aenigma
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:35:00 -
[109]
Despite the fact that this is a thread risen from the dead, Mining barges still can't mine mercox at any agreeable rate. So, basically we must use a battleship for mining mercoxite instead of the far more specialized mining barge. Specialization ftw 
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true sight
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:54:00 -
[110]
Edited by: true sight on 30/06/2005 17:58:38
Originally by: DeerHunter GE
Also the cost factor for these ships is much better than an tier 2 BS
errrr... yeah...... its not as cheap as you think, and the insurance payout is less if you loose it.
Covetor 33m
MSM II 21m x3 = 63m
TOTAL: 96mil
Insurance payout < 96mil
Apoc 120m
Miner II pfft.. why bother costing them
Apoc Insurance > 96mil.
LINKAGE
Take a Look at this, I posted it last month, its my personal statistics on using a Covetor with 10 harvesters, 3 strip miners and tech2 crystals, whilst currently the diagrams on the thread only show my results for Veldspar/Scordite and Plagioclase, i will be adding Pyroxeres, Omber and Kernite soon (Getting the processing skills to lvl4 is a *****.)
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Roshan longshot
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Posted - 2005.06.30 18:33:00 -
[111]
Originally by: jukriamrr
Repeat the following sentence a thousand times:
"Apocs were not originally meant for mining"
Fact is, they are good at it... just because the are, however, does not mean the barges should have stats and capabilities based on a ship used not for its primary role.
I yearn for the day when there will be mining hardpoints. No more mining in apocs :) But that's just me ;)
Niether are frigates, destroyers, cruisers, or haulers. But they were the ships we had to use to mine...
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter,pirate[/i] or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box and from this site.
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.06.30 18:37:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Idara
That's hardly worth the extra training time and the inherant weakness in the Mining Barge's defenses.
As opposed to the training time and expense to equip and fly an Apoc? And it's not like an Apoc outfitted for mining is going to hold its own in 0.0 against a big nasty spawn any better than a Covetor.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.06.30 18:39:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Idara
Med Barge Vs Apoc
Small Barge = Frigate sized
Medium Barge = Cruiser sized
LArge Barge = Bs sized.
Comparing a med barge with an apoc is like complaing about destroyers not being to haul as much as indys.
Anyhow, mining sucks 
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Alazais
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Posted - 2005.06.30 18:45:00 -
[114]
Isn't the most simple way to look at this "How fast can you fill a can with an apoc vs barge?"
I can fill a can (27,500m¦)in my barge in 25 minutes using 3 strip miner II's and 3 tech II crystals.
I doubt an Apoc can even touch that :P
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pulse1976
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Posted - 2005.07.01 08:17:00 -
[115]
Edited by: pulse1976 on 01/07/2005 08:18:49
Edited by: pulse1976 on 01/07/2005 08:18:09
Originally by: Mr Grumpy
Originally by: flummox
Miner II - (base 60 m3/cycle)
Maximum Output = 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75 m3/cycle
Strip Miner I - (base 540 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output = 540 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 970.3125 m3/cycle
Modulated Strip Miner II - (base 360 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output (w/o Crystal) = 360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 646.875 m3/cycle
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = 360 * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 1694.8125 m3
I see where you get the modifiers from (2.62= crystal 162%,1.25 skill modifier etc) but what about the modulated strip miner? Fair enough the base value is 360 units but did you notice the little note at the bottom which reads "specialty crystal mining amount
360 Ore units". Does this mean your calc should read:
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = (360 + 360) * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 3389.625 m3?
I wish I never looked at this old thread now  Nevermind. Anyhow all i wanted to know was if you use a modulated minerII do you get the base plus an extra 360 for the crystal plus the modifier for the crystal??
And mining doesn't suck especially when you want to fill that 10mill buy order......
7days to lvl Mining barge!!!!
P.S. Mr Grumpy is my alt!
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Gamer4liff
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Posted - 2005.07.01 08:19:00 -
[116]
as somebody who flies a covetor and trained for months beforehand for it, i still think it was worth it, and it will be more so when t2 strip miners come out and whatnot.
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Valerie Ganor
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Posted - 2005.07.01 08:47:00 -
[117]
wow..
talk about dragging the old threats out from the dead...
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Win the crowd... |
csebal
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Posted - 2005.07.01 08:50:00 -
[118]
I think, that skill point wise it is much faster to learn apoc, than to learn mining barge. Then again, i may be wrong.
Anyway. The small barge is a joke. Even an osprey mines better.
The medium barge is decent. Almost produces the output of a apoc, which is nice.
The large barge is without question the best out there. 10 harvesters, 3 strip miners. It has at least 1.5x the mining capacity of an apoc, and with modulated strip miners / crystals, you can improve that ratio somewhat.
All barges are made out of paper however, so their usage is extremely limited to high-sec systems, or protected mining ops.
I think that the only barge, that is worth training for - on the long run - is the covetor. Why? Because that has a significant increase in ore output compared to the next best mining ship.
Sure, learning that barge lv5 skills is a real pain in the a$$, but those, who take mining seriously will realize, that it is more than worth it. The step between an apoc and a covetor, or a retriever and a covetor is like stepping from a low-end cruiser into an apoc for mining.
2 hours of mining with a covetor equal 3 hours of mining with a apoc. That means, that for every 4 hour mining session, you basically get 2 more apoc hour worth of ore.
If thats not enough, then what is?
btw: covetors could really use some love, but they could easily become overpowered, if they are too well defended. My only problem with them is their speed. Getting from point a to point b without insta BMs, or warping to far away asteroids, then back to my target.. well, it just takes ages.
It makes me feel ashamed, when the iteron V, packed with 5 cargo expanders overtakes my covetor, like if i would be standing.
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This post is nothing more than my personal opinion. It does not represent the official standpoint of Fountain Alliance, or the HUN Corporation in any way.
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Lustralis
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Posted - 2005.07.01 09:13:00 -
[119]
Originally by: csebal
The large barge is without question the best out there. 10 harvesters, 3 strip miners. It has at least 1.5x the mining capacity of an apoc, and with modulated strip miners / crystals, you can improve that ratio somewhat.
But you are including the harvestors in that calculation of course? Maybe it might look a little more attractive when we get mining drones that have decent throughput, don't cost 8,000,000 each and can last long enough to scoop to drone bay when a spawn appears.
What is the comparison like between the best barge and the Apoc for example, without drones?
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BlueSmok
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Posted - 2005.07.01 09:21:00 -
[120]
Someone kill it before it spreads!! ARg the *mAdNess!*
*Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security.
Bene Gesserit Coda |
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