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Idara
   |
Posted - 2004.11.26 16:53:00 -
[1]
I've been looking at the Mining Barges and the like this morning, and have decided to do a little calculating to figure out if they really are that much better...
Let's start with the Mining ship we all know and love, the Apocalypse.
Level 5 Mining, Astrogeology will bring the total yield of a Miner II from 60 ore per/minute to 90 ore per/minute, a 50% increase.
Looking at the Strip Miners, we see that they do a whopping 540 ore per/cycle, but this cycle is 3 times longer than the 60 second Miner II cycle.
Looking at the most reasonable Mining Barge, the Retriever, the Covetor is a little much so early, we see 2 slots for Strip Miner's, and at Level 3 Mining Barge, we get a total increase of 59% with the previously mentioned skills.
So...540 + 59% = 858.6 ore per/cycle. Times this by two and we got 1717.2 ore per/cycle. Lots eh? But seeing that it's cycle is 3 times longer...
1717.2 / 3 = 572.4 ore per/minute.
Wait, isn't that less than the Apoc? And doesn't the Apoc have greater defenses, and a larger Drone bay?
Well let's look at the Covetor then
540 + 65% (L5 Mining Barge adds 15% to the basic skills) = 891 ore per/cycle, times 3 = 2673 ore per/cycle, again dividing by 3 we get...891 ore per/minute.
That's hardly worth the extra training time and the inherant weakness in the Mining Barge's defenses.
Did I miss some extra added bonus? Or are the Mining Barges not all they're *****ed up to be?
Idara
Section Leader - Security & Warfare
Member of Metatron Incorporated |
Idara
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 16:53:00 -
[2]
I've been looking at the Mining Barges and the like this morning, and have decided to do a little calculating to figure out if they really are that much better...
Let's start with the Mining ship we all know and love, the Apocalypse.
Level 5 Mining, Astrogeology will bring the total yield of a Miner II from 60 ore per/minute to 90 ore per/minute, a 50% increase.
Looking at the Strip Miners, we see that they do a whopping 540 ore per/cycle, but this cycle is 3 times longer than the 60 second Miner II cycle.
Looking at the most reasonable Mining Barge, the Retriever, the Covetor is a little much so early, we see 2 slots for Strip Miner's, and at Level 3 Mining Barge, we get a total increase of 59% with the previously mentioned skills.
So...540 + 59% = 858.6 ore per/cycle. Times this by two and we got 1717.2 ore per/cycle. Lots eh? But seeing that it's cycle is 3 times longer...
1717.2 / 3 = 572.4 ore per/minute.
Wait, isn't that less than the Apoc? And doesn't the Apoc have greater defenses, and a larger Drone bay?
Well let's look at the Covetor then
540 + 65% (L5 Mining Barge adds 15% to the basic skills) = 891 ore per/cycle, times 3 = 2673 ore per/cycle, again dividing by 3 we get...891 ore per/minute.
That's hardly worth the extra training time and the inherant weakness in the Mining Barge's defenses.
Did I miss some extra added bonus? Or are the Mining Barges not all they're *****ed up to be?
Idara
Section Leader - Security & Warfare
Member of Metatron Incorporated |
cashman
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 16:57:00 -
[3]
Edited by: cashman on 26/11/2004 17:03:38
Costs much less? That's why I'm getting one. Can't afford a battleship atm.
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cashman
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Posted - 2004.11.26 16:57:00 -
[4]
Edited by: cashman on 26/11/2004 17:03:38
Costs much less? That's why I'm getting one. Can't afford a battleship atm.
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Estios
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Posted - 2004.11.26 17:05:00 -
[5]
I dont much about mining but I think you are missing the fact that ONLY mining barges can mine Ice and other moon based stuff
Kind of the point of them ....... (i think)
So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
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Estios
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Posted - 2004.11.26 17:05:00 -
[6]
I dont much about mining but I think you are missing the fact that ONLY mining barges can mine Ice and other moon based stuff
Kind of the point of them ....... (i think)
So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
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Wotok
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Posted - 2004.11.26 17:05:00 -
[7]
You forgot the ice miner. afaik that's only possible with barges.
--
Wotok has no brain! |
Wotok
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:05:00 -
[8]
You forgot the ice miner. afaik that's only possible with barges.
--
Wotok has no brain! |
jukriamrr
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Posted - 2004.11.26 17:06:00 -
[9]
Repeat the following sentence a thousand times:
"Apocs were not originally meant for mining"
Fact is, they are good at it... just because the are, however, does not mean the barges should have stats and capabilities based on a ship used not for its primary role.
I yearn for the day when there will be mining hardpoints. No more mining in apocs :) But that's just me ;)
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jukriamrr
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Posted - 2004.11.26 17:06:00 -
[10]
Repeat the following sentence a thousand times:
"Apocs were not originally meant for mining"
Fact is, they are good at it... just because the are, however, does not mean the barges should have stats and capabilities based on a ship used not for its primary role.
I yearn for the day when there will be mining hardpoints. No more mining in apocs :) But that's just me ;)
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Sarela
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:08:00 -
[11]
 Quote:
Icefields are similar to normal asteroid fields and mining them works the same, except players need a special mining laser to extract the ores.
Quote:
Harvesting gas clouds can also be profitable and needs an Gas Cloud Harvester
Quote:
Comets travel at high speeds needing you to keep up to be able to harvest it's ores. Being in the trail of the comet (less than 50km away from it) will yield minerals if the ship is equipped with a Dust harvester.
These 3 new gun types can only be used by the mining barge.  |
Sarela
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:08:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Icefields are similar to normal asteroid fields and mining them works the same, except players need a special mining laser to extract the ores.
Quote:
Harvesting gas clouds can also be profitable and needs an Gas Cloud Harvester
Quote:
Comets travel at high speeds needing you to keep up to be able to harvest it's ores. Being in the trail of the comet (less than 50km away from it) will yield minerals if the ship is equipped with a Dust harvester.
These 3 new gun types can only be used by the mining barge. |
Tesol Xarto
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:15:00 -
[13]
yep, for "normal" mining only the biggest barge is better than the apoc.
but maybee that will change with new lasers and/or crystals.
atm i get 750m¦/min with my apoc and 579m¦/min with the retriever.
the covetor would do 970m¦/min but barge is a rank4 skill and that'll take time to lvl5 :-)
=======
WOTOK HAS NO BRAIN
sobriety sucks / eating nuclear waste might give you indigestion |
Tesol Xarto
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:15:00 -
[14]
yep, for "normal" mining only the biggest barge is better than the apoc.
but maybee that will change with new lasers and/or crystals.
atm i get 750m¦/min with my apoc and 579m¦/min with the retriever.
the covetor would do 970m¦/min but barge is a rank4 skill and that'll take time to lvl5 :-)
=======
WOTOK HAS NO BRAIN
sobriety sucks / eating nuclear waste might give you indigestion |
Mariah Lawsara
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:20:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Mariah Lawsara on 26/11/2004 17:23:26
Question: Can you fit a strip miner/ice miner on an Indy?
I know it'll be barely useful, since the Indies have no drones for defence against pirates and are only able to equip one of the mining beams, but it's something for the newbie miners to use while waiting for the skills for Mining barges...
-----------------
Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves. - Henry David Thoreau |
Mariah Lawsara
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:20:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Mariah Lawsara on 26/11/2004 17:23:26
Question: Can you fit a strip miner/ice miner on an Indy?
I know it'll be barely useful, since the Indies have no drones for defence against pirates and are only able to equip one of the mining beams, but it's something for the newbie miners to use while waiting for the skills for Mining barges...
-----------------
Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves. - Henry David Thoreau |
Tesol Xarto
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:21:00 -
[17]
no, stripminer has 3000cpu need
=======
WOTOK HAS NO BRAIN
sobriety sucks / eating nuclear waste might give you indigestion |
Tesol Xarto
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:21:00 -
[18]
no, stripminer has 3000cpu need
=======
WOTOK HAS NO BRAIN
sobriety sucks / eating nuclear waste might give you indigestion |
Mariah Lawsara
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:23:00 -
[19]
And the others? I'm kind of at work at the moment so I dunno how much CPU/powergrid each one needs...
-----------------
Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves. - Henry David Thoreau |
Mariah Lawsara
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:23:00 -
[20]
And the others? I'm kind of at work at the moment so I dunno how much CPU/powergrid each one needs...
-----------------
Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves. - Henry David Thoreau |
Ruby LeFonte
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: jukriamrr
I yearn for the day when there will be mining hardpoints. No more mining in apocs :) But that's just me ;)
Nope, that's also a fair chunk of the mining population... As long as there's something better at mining than a barge, I'll take that.
Just because we are paranoid, doesn't mean you're not out to get us. |
Ruby LeFonte
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: jukriamrr
I yearn for the day when there will be mining hardpoints. No more mining in apocs :) But that's just me ;)
Nope, that's also a fair chunk of the mining population... As long as there's something better at mining than a barge, I'll take that.
Just because we are paranoid, doesn't mean you're not out to get us. |
Tesol Xarto
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:27:00 -
[23]
hmm ice harvester also has 3000, i don't find the others, but i asume it will be similar.
=======
WOTOK HAS NO BRAIN
sobriety sucks / eating nuclear waste might give you indigestion |
Tesol Xarto
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:27:00 -
[24]
hmm ice harvester also has 3000, i don't find the others, but i asume it will be similar.
=======
WOTOK HAS NO BRAIN
sobriety sucks / eating nuclear waste might give you indigestion |
Zyrla Bladestorm
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:27:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Idara
Level 5 Mining, Astrogeology will bring the total yield of a Miner II from 60 ore per/minute to 90 ore per/minute, a 50% increase.
Looking at the Strip Miners, we see that they do a whopping 540 ore per/cycle, but this cycle is 3 times longer than the 60 second Miner II cycle.
we get a total increase of 59% with the previously mentioned skills.
540 + 65% (L5 Mining Barge adds 15% to the basic skills) = 891 ore per/cycle, times 3 = 2673 ore per/cycle, again dividing by 3 we get...891 ore per/minute.
That's hardly worth the extra training time and the inherant weakness in the Mining Barge's defenses.
Did I miss some extra added bonus? Or are the Mining Barges not all they're *****ed up to be?
skills dont add, they multiply - so its :
100 * 25% * 25% = +56.25% (93.75m3 - 843.75 for three running for three minutes)
100 * 25% * 25% * 9% = +70.31% (919.#m3)
100 * 25% * 25% * 15% = +79.68% (970.#m3
or
Apoc with 8 miner II = 750m3/minute
Coveter with 3 strip miner I = 970m3/minute
Oveur has always responded to previous threads on the topic with basically : "Wait till you see the strip miner II  "
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
|
Zyrla Bladestorm
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:27:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Idara
Level 5 Mining, Astrogeology will bring the total yield of a Miner II from 60 ore per/minute to 90 ore per/minute, a 50% increase.
Looking at the Strip Miners, we see that they do a whopping 540 ore per/cycle, but this cycle is 3 times longer than the 60 second Miner II cycle.
we get a total increase of 59% with the previously mentioned skills.
540 + 65% (L5 Mining Barge adds 15% to the basic skills) = 891 ore per/cycle, times 3 = 2673 ore per/cycle, again dividing by 3 we get...891 ore per/minute.
That's hardly worth the extra training time and the inherant weakness in the Mining Barge's defenses.
Did I miss some extra added bonus? Or are the Mining Barges not all they're *****ed up to be?
skills dont add, they multiply - so its :
100 * 25% * 25% = +56.25% (93.75m3 - 843.75 for three running for three minutes)
100 * 25% * 25% * 9% = +70.31% (919.#m3)
100 * 25% * 25% * 15% = +79.68% (970.#m3
or
Apoc with 8 miner II = 750m3/minute
Coveter with 3 strip miner I = 970m3/minute
Oveur has always responded to previous threads on the topic with basically : "Wait till you see the strip miner II "
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
|
Ilior
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:03:00 -
[27]
I disagree. As we have already established with full skills:
The apoc pulls 750cm3 a minute.
The big barge pulls 970cm3 a minute.
You are mistaken if you think that this is an insignificant amount as in one hour of mining veldspar the barge pulls 132000 more veldspar than the apoc. Thats worth about 800k isk and this value will increase mining higher ores. An min increase of nearly 1 mil an hour is worth it in my book.
Then there is the ice mining and the modulated miners with 156% bonus. As for the low defences (1.) 0.0 mining was never meant to be done solo (2.) Its far less of a risk (the 9 mil retriever being the equivalent miner to the 100 mil apoc)
_______________________________________________
The above may be profound wisdom: or misguided rubbish. Either way dont take it too seriously :) |
Ilior
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:03:00 -
[28]
I disagree. As we have already established with full skills:
The apoc pulls 750cm3 a minute.
The big barge pulls 970cm3 a minute.
You are mistaken if you think that this is an insignificant amount as in one hour of mining veldspar the barge pulls 132000 more veldspar than the apoc. Thats worth about 800k isk and this value will increase mining higher ores. An min increase of nearly 1 mil an hour is worth it in my book.
Then there is the ice mining and the modulated miners with 156% bonus. As for the low defences (1.) 0.0 mining was never meant to be done solo (2.) Its far less of a risk (the 9 mil retriever being the equivalent miner to the 100 mil apoc)
_______________________________________________
The above may be profound wisdom: or misguided rubbish. Either way dont take it too seriously :) |
Mydrial Jacor
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:13:00 -
[29]
You also need to account that you're getting a good ore mining capability at a much reduced investment cost (i.e barges cost less than battleships).
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Mydrial Jacor
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Posted - 2004.11.26 19:13:00 -
[30]
You also need to account that you're getting a good ore mining capability at a much reduced investment cost (i.e barges cost less than battleships).
|
Lufio II
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:19:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Ilior
I disagree. As we have already established with full skills:
The apoc pulls 750cm3 a minute.
The big barge pulls 970cm3 a minute.
You are mistaken if you think that this is an insignificant amount as in one hour of mining veldspar the barge pulls 132000 more veldspar than the apoc. Thats worth about 800k isk and this value will increase mining higher ores. An min increase of nearly 1 mil an hour is worth it in my book.
Then there is the ice mining and the modulated miners with 156% bonus. As for the low defences (1.) 0.0 mining was never meant to be done solo (2.) Its far less of a risk (the 9 mil retriever being the equivalent miner to the 100 mil apoc)
with full skills the big barge pulls over 1000 per minute actually. (1012.5 I think). Anyway, it's unfair to compare one side with T2-Items (Apoc with miner IIs) and the other side with T1-Items (Barges with Strip Miner Is). IF you want to compare, do it with an Apoc that has only Miner I to get realistic data which is actually comparable.
|
Lufio II
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:19:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Ilior
I disagree. As we have already established with full skills:
The apoc pulls 750cm3 a minute.
The big barge pulls 970cm3 a minute.
You are mistaken if you think that this is an insignificant amount as in one hour of mining veldspar the barge pulls 132000 more veldspar than the apoc. Thats worth about 800k isk and this value will increase mining higher ores. An min increase of nearly 1 mil an hour is worth it in my book.
Then there is the ice mining and the modulated miners with 156% bonus. As for the low defences (1.) 0.0 mining was never meant to be done solo (2.) Its far less of a risk (the 9 mil retriever being the equivalent miner to the 100 mil apoc)
with full skills the big barge pulls over 1000 per minute actually. (1012.5 I think). Anyway, it's unfair to compare one side with T2-Items (Apoc with miner IIs) and the other side with T1-Items (Barges with Strip Miner Is). IF you want to compare, do it with an Apoc that has only Miner I to get realistic data which is actually comparable.
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Druid R
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Posted - 2004.11.26 19:32:00 -
[33]
if ur comparing the apoc at full mining/astro then have to compare barge at lvl 5, also for a new player, ie without many skills it amkes much more sense to go for barge, and dont forget not everybody is amarr and so has to train up all the amarr ship skills > waste of time when barge is there
Dru. |
Druid R
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:32:00 -
[34]
if ur comparing the apoc at full mining/astro then have to compare barge at lvl 5, also for a new player, ie without many skills it amkes much more sense to go for barge, and dont forget not everybody is amarr and so has to train up all the amarr ship skills > waste of time when barge is there
Dru. |
Jebidus Skari
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:37:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Lufio II
IF you want to compare, do it with an Apoc that has only Miner I to get realistic data which is actually comparable.
Or do the comparison using the equipment people actually use?
Anyways, it's simple:
Apoc = ~100mil, ferocious mining at a price
Medium Barge = ~11mil with miners, ferocious mining for next to nothing
So yeah, they're worth it...
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Jebidus Skari
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:37:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Lufio II
IF you want to compare, do it with an Apoc that has only Miner I to get realistic data which is actually comparable.
Or do the comparison using the equipment people actually use?
Anyways, it's simple:
Apoc = ~100mil, ferocious mining at a price
Medium Barge = ~11mil with miners, ferocious mining for next to nothing
So yeah, they're worth it...
|
Ilior
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:43:00 -
[37]
Quote:
with full skills the big barge pulls over 1000 per minute actually. (1012.5 I think).
I dont think you are right, show me your math.
[miners base]*[mining skill]*[astrogeology]*[barge bonus]/3[180 sec cycle] = volume per min
540*3 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 / 3 = 970.3125
Quote:
Anyway, it's unfair to compare one side with T2-Items (Apoc with miner IIs) and the other side with T1-Items (Barges with Strip Miner Is). IF you want to compare, do it with an Apoc that has only Miner I to get realistic data which is actually comparable.
Again I disagree the tech level of an item has no significance - only its current availability and price. Both miner IIs and Strip Miners are available and affordable.
_______________________________________________
The above may be profound wisdom: or misguided rubbish. Either way dont take it too seriously :) |
Ilior
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:43:00 -
[38]
Quote:
with full skills the big barge pulls over 1000 per minute actually. (1012.5 I think).
I dont think you are right, show me your math.
[miners base]*[mining skill]*[astrogeology]*[barge bonus]/3[180 sec cycle] = volume per min
540*3 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 / 3 = 970.3125
Quote:
Anyway, it's unfair to compare one side with T2-Items (Apoc with miner IIs) and the other side with T1-Items (Barges with Strip Miner Is). IF you want to compare, do it with an Apoc that has only Miner I to get realistic data which is actually comparable.
Again I disagree the tech level of an item has no significance - only its current availability and price. Both miner IIs and Strip Miners are available and affordable.
_______________________________________________
The above may be profound wisdom: or misguided rubbish. Either way dont take it too seriously :) |
Dsanta
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:51:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ilior
Quote:
with full skills the big barge pulls over 1000 per minute actually. (1012.5 I think).
I dont think you are right, show me your math.
[miners base]*[mining skill]*[astrogeology]*[barge bonus]/3[180 sec cycle] = volume per min
540*3 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 / 3 = 970.3125
Quote:
Anyway, it's unfair to compare one side with T2-Items (Apoc with miner IIs) and the other side with T1-Items (Barges with Strip Miner Is). IF you want to compare, do it with an Apoc that has only Miner I to get realistic data which is actually comparable.
Again I disagree the tech level of an item has no significance - only its current availability and price. Both miner IIs and Strip Miners are available and affordable.
i really dont care, this thread is pointless, an apoc ant mine ice, a barge can, end of story, so drop it.
-----------------------------------------------
Linkage |
Dsanta
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:51:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ilior
Quote:
with full skills the big barge pulls over 1000 per minute actually. (1012.5 I think).
I dont think you are right, show me your math.
[miners base]*[mining skill]*[astrogeology]*[barge bonus]/3[180 sec cycle] = volume per min
540*3 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 / 3 = 970.3125
Quote:
Anyway, it's unfair to compare one side with T2-Items (Apoc with miner IIs) and the other side with T1-Items (Barges with Strip Miner Is). IF you want to compare, do it with an Apoc that has only Miner I to get realistic data which is actually comparable.
Again I disagree the tech level of an item has no significance - only its current availability and price. Both miner IIs and Strip Miners are available and affordable.
i really dont care, this thread is pointless, an apoc ant mine ice, a barge can, end of story, so drop it.
-----------------------------------------------
Linkage |
Ilior
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:58:00 -
[41]
Woah steady on just a bit of discusion, if it really offends you, dont read the thread
_______________________________________________
The above may be profound wisdom: or misguided rubbish. Either way dont take it too seriously :) |
Ilior
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 19:58:00 -
[42]
Woah steady on just a bit of discusion, if it really offends you, dont read the thread
_______________________________________________
The above may be profound wisdom: or misguided rubbish. Either way dont take it too seriously :) |
Bubba Fett
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 20:27:00 -
[43]
In some cases the mining barge makes more sense, in others it doesn't.
Consider this: At 540m per cycle the strip miner has a base output of 180m per minute. This is 3 times the base output of a miner2. Add in your skill bonus's and the strip miner is still equal to 3 miner2's. Add in your barge bonus and it gets a bit better than 3 miner2's.
But is it worthwhile?
A small mining barge has less mining output than an execuror or vexor. It costs less, but is only good for one thing and neeeds WAY more skills to run and is much more fragile.
A med mining barge has about the same output as a dominix (or an osprey at caldari cruiser 5) Costs a lot less than the dom and has a bigger hold, but is much weaker and can't solo mine in med/low sec space. (.7 or better would probably be OK though)
A large mining barge has about 10% more output than an apoc for less than half the cost. 10 med drones will keep you alive in .5 space no problem, but it's probably not durable enough for solo mining in low sec space.
In my opinion, if you've already got most of the skills needed and do a lot of high sec mining a med or large barge might be worthwhile, otherwise you're better off with miner2's till the modulated strip miners and crystals come out.
|
Bubba Fett
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Posted - 2004.11.26 20:27:00 -
[44]
In some cases the mining barge makes more sense, in others it doesn't.
Consider this: At 540m per cycle the strip miner has a base output of 180m per minute. This is 3 times the base output of a miner2. Add in your skill bonus's and the strip miner is still equal to 3 miner2's. Add in your barge bonus and it gets a bit better than 3 miner2's.
But is it worthwhile?
A small mining barge has less mining output than an execuror or vexor. It costs less, but is only good for one thing and neeeds WAY more skills to run and is much more fragile.
A med mining barge has about the same output as a dominix (or an osprey at caldari cruiser 5) Costs a lot less than the dom and has a bigger hold, but is much weaker and can't solo mine in med/low sec space. (.7 or better would probably be OK though)
A large mining barge has about 10% more output than an apoc for less than half the cost. 10 med drones will keep you alive in .5 space no problem, but it's probably not durable enough for solo mining in low sec space.
In my opinion, if you've already got most of the skills needed and do a lot of high sec mining a med or large barge might be worthwhile, otherwise you're better off with miner2's till the modulated strip miners and crystals come out.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2004.11.26 20:45:00 -
[45]
For mining Asteroid Belts the Barge is absoloutly disapointing.
The only barge that's acctually some 20% better then an Apoc is the biggest one, which requires three Level 5 Skills to operate and costs around 40 million ISK.
I don't think we're going to see a big change in the belts, The only people I see training level 5 skills so they can swich the best armor in the galaxy for about 20% more yield are AFK miners in ratless belts. For everyone else Barges are essentially Ice-miners.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2004.11.26 20:45:00 -
[46]
For mining Asteroid Belts the Barge is absoloutly disapointing.
The only barge that's acctually some 20% better then an Apoc is the biggest one, which requires three Level 5 Skills to operate and costs around 40 million ISK.
I don't think we're going to see a big change in the belts, The only people I see training level 5 skills so they can swich the best armor in the galaxy for about 20% more yield are AFK miners in ratless belts. For everyone else Barges are essentially Ice-miners.
|
Harklite
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 20:49:00 -
[47]
I'm solo ice mining in 0.6 as I type.
I can handle any spawn here you just need to fit the right mods.
Think armour tanking. 
Even easyer in amarr space if you do. 
My only concern is the foul warp distance. 
----------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
|
Harklite
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 20:49:00 -
[48]
I'm solo ice mining in 0.6 as I type.
I can handle any spawn here you just need to fit the right mods.
Think armour tanking.
Even easyer in amarr space if you do.
My only concern is the foul warp distance.
----------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
|
Earthan
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 20:57:00 -
[49]
Idara imho you are wrong
Compare the apoc with the larger barge and the modulated miners with crystals.
ITs a viable compare when you take in mind skills and cash needed to fly apoc.
With a large barge yuo can fit 3 modulated strip miners ,With crytal its 675 each lets assume 59 % more its 1073 , 3 high slots its 3 x 1073 then divide by 3 due to time its 1073.
A bit better to apoc 720 no?
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Earthan
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 20:57:00 -
[50]
Idara imho you are wrong
Compare the apoc with the larger barge and the modulated miners with crystals.
ITs a viable compare when you take in mind skills and cash needed to fly apoc.
With a large barge yuo can fit 3 modulated strip miners ,With crytal its 675 each lets assume 59 % more its 1073 , 3 high slots its 3 x 1073 then divide by 3 due to time its 1073.
A bit better to apoc 720 no?
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Rephern Muare
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 21:25:00 -
[51]
all bs's should get hits to mining in them...maybe a 20% hit to mining in them. Then the bs can be in its true role, fighting
|
Rephern Muare
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 21:25:00 -
[52]
all bs's should get hits to mining in them...maybe a 20% hit to mining in them. Then the bs can be in its true role, fighting
|
Tenashi
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 21:32:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Tenashi on 26/11/2004 21:35:05
m2 gives 93.75 ore/min
also in the apoc u can use 6-7 harvies with 3 heavy drones for defense or all harvies(mining drone 5) if u have a 2nd account/friend mining with u and do defense so it outmines a barge for quite some time :)
Everlasting Vendetta - Search |
Tenashi
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 21:32:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Tenashi on 26/11/2004 21:35:05
m2 gives 93.75 ore/min
also in the apoc u can use 6-7 harvies with 3 heavy drones for defense or all harvies(mining drone 5) if u have a 2nd account/friend mining with u and do defense so it outmines a barge for quite some time :)
Everlasting Vendetta - Search |
marioman
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 21:45:00 -
[55]
erm a large barge can fit 10 harvs, so again more ore than an apoc
it can also fit 4 heavy drones if ur mining in low sec
the medium is a nice barge for the money, im mining to build my raven atm, which i was using an osprey b4 the patch. Being caldari Osprey used to be my best mining choice, now I have a med barge which, albeit not better than an apoc but 200m3 faster than an osprey with just lasers. Plus it has an extra 100m3 drone.
One thing i've noticed a miscomparison on is the sizes, the small is in the frigate range, medium is cruiser range, large is in the BS range.
|
marioman
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 21:45:00 -
[56]
erm a large barge can fit 10 harvs, so again more ore than an apoc
it can also fit 4 heavy drones if ur mining in low sec
the medium is a nice barge for the money, im mining to build my raven atm, which i was using an osprey b4 the patch. Being caldari Osprey used to be my best mining choice, now I have a med barge which, albeit not better than an apoc but 200m3 faster than an osprey with just lasers. Plus it has an extra 100m3 drone.
One thing i've noticed a miscomparison on is the sizes, the small is in the frigate range, medium is cruiser range, large is in the BS range.
|
Kerry
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 21:56:00 -
[57]
IMHO...
These mining barges, plain and simply, seem to be pointed at one goal... to make mining as painful as possible.
They can fit nothing(other than them strip miners), they go slower then a two legged dog, and almost collapse in on themselves if looked at funny.
They need a serious boost in proficiency to take them all the way out of the Apocalypse's playing field for all this torture... |
Kerry
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 21:56:00 -
[58]
IMHO...
These mining barges, plain and simply, seem to be pointed at one goal... to make mining as painful as possible.
They can fit nothing(other than them strip miners), they go slower then a two legged dog, and almost collapse in on themselves if looked at funny.
They need a serious boost in proficiency to take them all the way out of the Apocalypse's playing field for all this torture... |
rowbin hod
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 22:06:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kerry
IMHO...
These mining barges, plain and simply, seem to be pointed at one goal... to make mining as painful as possible.
They can fit nothing(other than them strip miners), they go slower then a two legged dog, and almost collapse in on themselves if looked at funny.
They need a serious boost in proficiency to take them all the way out of the Apocalypse's playing field for all this torture...
Ok, I'll race you. You in your apoc, me in my mining barge. First one to mine enough ice to get a pos online wins.
Ready.....
Set.....
pwned
---
"Due to the European lard shortage, we are currently unable to supply this product." |
rowbin hod
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 22:06:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Kerry
IMHO...
These mining barges, plain and simply, seem to be pointed at one goal... to make mining as painful as possible.
They can fit nothing(other than them strip miners), they go slower then a two legged dog, and almost collapse in on themselves if looked at funny.
They need a serious boost in proficiency to take them all the way out of the Apocalypse's playing field for all this torture...
Ok, I'll race you. You in your apoc, me in my mining barge. First one to mine enough ice to get a pos online wins.
Ready.....
Set.....
pwned
---
"Due to the European lard shortage, we are currently unable to supply this product." |
Kerry
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 22:12:00 -
[61]
Originally by: rowbin hod
Ok, I'll race you. You in your apoc, me in my mining barge. First one to mine enough ice to get a pos online wins.
Ready.....
Set.....
pwned
I don't pilot an apoc...
I actually mine in a Retriever, it is why I can comment on the aspects of the mining barges. Wether they can mine ice or the cream filling out of a twinkie, I still feel they are about making a painful task more painful, and as such, should have way more proficiency much less still be comparable to any other mining ship in the game....
again IMHO |
Kerry
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 22:12:00 -
[62]
Originally by: rowbin hod
Ok, I'll race you. You in your apoc, me in my mining barge. First one to mine enough ice to get a pos online wins.
Ready.....
Set.....
pwned
I don't pilot an apoc...
I actually mine in a Retriever, it is why I can comment on the aspects of the mining barges. Wether they can mine ice or the cream filling out of a twinkie, I still feel they are about making a painful task more painful, and as such, should have way more proficiency much less still be comparable to any other mining ship in the game....
again IMHO |
Derekian
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 23:47:00 -
[63]
Yeah barges can mine ice while apocs cant and ur calculations were quite wrong as stated above.
|
Derekian
|
Posted - 2004.11.26 23:47:00 -
[64]
Yeah barges can mine ice while apocs cant and ur calculations were quite wrong as stated above.
|
Ulfar
|
Posted - 2004.11.27 00:13:00 -
[65]
Just a thought but how do destroyers compare when being used to mine with.
|
Ulfar
|
Posted - 2004.11.27 00:13:00 -
[66]
Just a thought but how do destroyers compare when being used to mine with.
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Kibachaan
|
Posted - 2004.11.27 09:36:00 -
[67]
If an ice-harvester requires 3K CPU, and the Covetor has 200, how does that work???
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Kibachaan
|
Posted - 2004.11.27 09:36:00 -
[68]
If an ice-harvester requires 3K CPU, and the Covetor has 200, how does that work???
|
Matt Ivresse
|
Posted - 2004.11.27 10:31:00 -
[69]
Probably the same way that the Covert ops Cloaking II works on a Covert Ops ship, the CPU required is reduced per level when fit on the ship.
---------------------------
DUI Racing - The PREMIER Racing corporation for Racing fans out there in the world of |
Matt Ivresse
|
Posted - 2004.11.27 10:31:00 -
[70]
Probably the same way that the Covert ops Cloaking II works on a Covert Ops ship, the CPU required is reduced per level when fit on the ship.
---------------------------
DUI Racing - The PREMIER Racing corporation for Racing fans out there in the world of |
Del Narveux
|
Posted - 2004.11.27 11:02:00 -
[71]
Barges are a good idea, but they need some refining (har har) to be widely accepted. As it is now they just take too much extra skill stuff for too little an increase over the ships we already have. Perhaps a good start would be to beef the 3% yield bonus to like 10% or 15%, so theyre more than just a teeny bit better than the cheaper, more defensible ships we already use to mine.
_________________
[SAK] And Proud Of It!
aka Cpt Bogus
Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? |
Del Narveux
|
Posted - 2004.11.27 11:02:00 -
[72]
Barges are a good idea, but they need some refining (har har) to be widely accepted. As it is now they just take too much extra skill stuff for too little an increase over the ships we already have. Perhaps a good start would be to beef the 3% yield bonus to like 10% or 15%, so theyre more than just a teeny bit better than the cheaper, more defensible ships we already use to mine.
_________________
[SAK] And Proud Of It!
aka Cpt Bogus
Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? |
Allon
|
Posted - 2004.11.27 11:22:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Allon on 27/11/2004 11:26:15
Originally by: Ilior
Quote:
with full skills the big barge pulls over 1000 per minute actually. (1012.5 I think).
I dont think you are right, show me your math.
[miners base]*[mining skill]*[astrogeology]*[barge bonus]/3[180 sec cycle] = volume per min
540*3 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 / 3 = 970.3125
Actually to be fair,
540 * 1.05^5 * 1.05^5 * 1.15 = 1011.5
so 1012.5 is pretty close
|
Allon
|
Posted - 2004.11.27 11:22:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Allon on 27/11/2004 11:26:15
Originally by: Ilior
Quote:
with full skills the big barge pulls over 1000 per minute actually. (1012.5 I think).
I dont think you are right, show me your math.
[miners base]*[mining skill]*[astrogeology]*[barge bonus]/3[180 sec cycle] = volume per min
540*3 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 / 3 = 970.3125
Actually to be fair,
540 * 1.05^5 * 1.05^5 * 1.15 = 1011.5
so 1012.5 is pretty close
|
Johnny Atlas
|
Posted - 2004.11.27 13:45:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Johnny Atlas on 27/11/2004 13:50:39
Originally by: Allon
Actually to be fair,
540 * 1.05^5 * 1.05^5 * 1.15 = 1011.5
so 1012.5 is pretty close
Try 540 * 1.05^5 * 1.05^5 * 1.03^5 = 1019
Noone seems to be getting the amounts right. On paper and tested
Covetor = 1019m3 (tested on Sisi)
Apocalypse = 781m3
Armageddon = 684m3
Retriever = 640m3 (tested on Exodus)
Procurer = Sod that, lvl1 cruiser can outmine it
Mining 5/Astro 5
Mining Barge 3 for retriever
Mining Barge 5 for covetor (obviously)
And last thing....Strip Miner 1. Lets see what Modulated Strip Miner 2 offers before flaming these barges to hell
|
Johnny Atlas
|
Posted - 2004.11.27 13:45:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Johnny Atlas on 27/11/2004 13:50:39
Originally by: Allon
Actually to be fair,
540 * 1.05^5 * 1.05^5 * 1.15 = 1011.5
so 1012.5 is pretty close
Try 540 * 1.05^5 * 1.05^5 * 1.03^5 = 1019
Noone seems to be getting the amounts right. On paper and tested
Covetor = 1019m3 (tested on Sisi)
Apocalypse = 781m3
Armageddon = 684m3
Retriever = 640m3 (tested on Exodus)
Procurer = Sod that, lvl1 cruiser can outmine it
Mining 5/Astro 5
Mining Barge 3 for retriever
Mining Barge 5 for covetor (obviously)
And last thing....Strip Miner 1. Lets see what Modulated Strip Miner 2 offers before flaming these barges to hell
|
Sister Immacolata
|
Posted - 2004.12.07 09:34:00 -
[77]
Mining barges are able to handle themselves in mid-sec mining at least. Last night I mined ice and also kernite in a 0.5 system and didnt get a scratch in my Retriever - at least not any that ran deeper than the shields. I managed by using 9 light drones. Had I been able to use the Covetor I'd probably have made a mix of 5 heavies and 4 medium drones.
The yield definitely isnt as good as when I mine in Yellow Maggy. But I am not forced to click-drag every 60 seconds, that helps a bit.
Considering that my Maggy represents a 60 mio isk investment, I'd say that the 9 mio isk barge isnt so bad. It isnt UBER, but its decent, and you can get to fly it within a month or two as a newbie.
Once modulated miners and crystals enters the fray, we're starting to talk serious mining business. These barges were not made to cater for the "I mine from my Apoc" types, but more the characters that have been made as industrialists. IT requires a high refinery efficiency skill and specialist processing skills to utilize the mining laser crystals. And those are skills that are usually "stuck" on 2nd toons, since no one feels like flying into deep space with their refiner toons.
. . . Awaiting more and hi-bit rate music - with bated breath ... |
Sister Immacolata
|
Posted - 2004.12.07 09:34:00 -
[78]
Mining barges are able to handle themselves in mid-sec mining at least. Last night I mined ice and also kernite in a 0.5 system and didnt get a scratch in my Retriever - at least not any that ran deeper than the shields. I managed by using 9 light drones. Had I been able to use the Covetor I'd probably have made a mix of 5 heavies and 4 medium drones.
The yield definitely isnt as good as when I mine in Yellow Maggy. But I am not forced to click-drag every 60 seconds, that helps a bit.
Considering that my Maggy represents a 60 mio isk investment, I'd say that the 9 mio isk barge isnt so bad. It isnt UBER, but its decent, and you can get to fly it within a month or two as a newbie.
Once modulated miners and crystals enters the fray, we're starting to talk serious mining business. These barges were not made to cater for the "I mine from my Apoc" types, but more the characters that have been made as industrialists. IT requires a high refinery efficiency skill and specialist processing skills to utilize the mining laser crystals. And those are skills that are usually "stuck" on 2nd toons, since no one feels like flying into deep space with their refiner toons.
. . . Awaiting more and hi-bit rate music - with bated breath ... |
MAD DarKnesS
|
Posted - 2004.12.07 10:45:00 -
[79]
modulated strip miners will make the mining barge unbeatable at mining it will mine a whoooping 1700m3 per minute...
----------------------------------------------
Tillyn > Thi is the one that Lee was talking abut last nigh
Medreena > shall we call the troops in now or later?
Medreena > u stupid mofo this is the local
Tillyn > ****
MAD DarKnesS > :P
----------------------------------------------
|
MAD DarKnesS
|
Posted - 2004.12.07 10:45:00 -
[80]
modulated strip miners will make the mining barge unbeatable at mining it will mine a whoooping 1700m3 per minute...
----------------------------------------------
Tillyn > Thi is the one that Lee was talking abut last nigh
Medreena > shall we call the troops in now or later?
Medreena > u stupid mofo this is the local
Tillyn > ****
MAD DarKnesS > :P
----------------------------------------------
|
Haratu
|
Posted - 2004.12.08 11:09:00 -
[81]
you need more skills to get to an apoc with astrology 5 than to get to the top level of mining barge.
Mining barge is therefore highly useful to a person who has not yet trained the skills. However to those that already use apocs then there is no point in training a new set of skills for a small increase.
The mining barges were made for miners... not battleship owners.
I roleplay... there is this computer game called "Earth - The First Genesis" where i play a character in the early 21st century. |
Haratu
|
Posted - 2004.12.08 11:09:00 -
[82]
you need more skills to get to an apoc with astrology 5 than to get to the top level of mining barge.
Mining barge is therefore highly useful to a person who has not yet trained the skills. However to those that already use apocs then there is no point in training a new set of skills for a small increase.
The mining barges were made for miners... not battleship owners.
I roleplay... there is this computer game called "Earth - The First Genesis" where i play a character in the early 21st century. |
Traxman
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 12:02:00 -
[83]
As a view from a new player as me (almost 4 month now)
as Caldari race i do about 450m3/min in my Osprey and
that with lvl5 mining, lvl4 Astro and lvl3 Cruiser
and since it takes me 4.5days to make it to lvl4 Crusier and then making almost to 500m3/min i still
make 588m3/min in my med barge atm. And when the Modulated Strip Miners II hit the market i can
start make veld (since i dont have the skills to use
any crystales yet) at increadeble 981m3/min so for
me i go for Barges, and still i can make ice for my
cola.. still hard to do that in a Apoc, and yes
in a Large barge with Modulated Strip Miners II you
can do over 1700m3/min .. and thats without drones
and that is unbeateble by anything running in the game. I - heading for being a uber miner@1700m3/min
but it will take me atleast 1 month of training
to lvl5 barge and astro lvl5 and all the refinery skills for using the diffrent crystales but someday
ill be there and if you dont find any belts left, you
know whos got there first..
|
Traxman
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 12:02:00 -
[84]
As a view from a new player as me (almost 4 month now)
as Caldari race i do about 450m3/min in my Osprey and
that with lvl5 mining, lvl4 Astro and lvl3 Cruiser
and since it takes me 4.5days to make it to lvl4 Crusier and then making almost to 500m3/min i still
make 588m3/min in my med barge atm. And when the Modulated Strip Miners II hit the market i can
start make veld (since i dont have the skills to use
any crystales yet) at increadeble 981m3/min so for
me i go for Barges, and still i can make ice for my
cola.. still hard to do that in a Apoc, and yes
in a Large barge with Modulated Strip Miners II you
can do over 1700m3/min .. and thats without drones
and that is unbeateble by anything running in the game. I - heading for being a uber miner@1700m3/min
but it will take me atleast 1 month of training
to lvl5 barge and astro lvl5 and all the refinery skills for using the diffrent crystales but someday
ill be there and if you dont find any belts left, you
know whos got there first..
|
DeerHunter GE
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 13:11:00 -
[85]
One thing you have to consider is....
if all miners which have mined before with e.g. apoc will use level 5 barges with 50% more yield the complete resource availability will increase for about 50%....ever considered this? Result of this is that 50% more res are avail to build ships for the whole community....
Also the cost factor for these ships is much better than an tier 2 BS
Don't ask "can i have your stuff" because i'll give it to everybody else than you! |
DeerHunter GE
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 13:11:00 -
[86]
One thing you have to consider is....
if all miners which have mined before with e.g. apoc will use level 5 barges with 50% more yield the complete resource availability will increase for about 50%....ever considered this? Result of this is that 50% more res are avail to build ships for the whole community....
Also the cost factor for these ships is much better than an tier 2 BS
Don't ask "can i have your stuff" because i'll give it to everybody else than you! |
Heero Yuy
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 13:28:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Dsanta
quote]
i really dont care, this thread is pointless, an apoc ant mine ice, a barge can, end of story, so drop it.
If you dont like the thread why waste your time writing in it?
|
Heero Yuy
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 13:28:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Dsanta
quote]
i really dont care, this thread is pointless, an apoc ant mine ice, a barge can, end of story, so drop it.
If you dont like the thread why waste your time writing in it?
|
Heero Yuy
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 13:31:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Heero Yuy on 23/12/2004 13:32:39
Edited by: Heero Yuy on 23/12/2004 13:31:33
People keep mentioning that the barge is cheaper but imo i would rather fly in a battleship than a paper thin ship....
Also, the mining barge can only be used for mining.... The apoc has 2 roles (mining and fighting) and thus technically you can divide the cost between the 2 roles (unless you all dont pvp or pvp in a mining barge). If you divide the value of the ship between its 2 roles, it costs almost as much as the large mining barge.
- just a point.... i cant fly apocs or mine!
|
Heero Yuy
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 13:31:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Heero Yuy on 23/12/2004 13:32:39
Edited by: Heero Yuy on 23/12/2004 13:31:33
People keep mentioning that the barge is cheaper but imo i would rather fly in a battleship than a paper thin ship....
Also, the mining barge can only be used for mining.... The apoc has 2 roles (mining and fighting) and thus technically you can divide the cost between the 2 roles (unless you all dont pvp or pvp in a mining barge). If you divide the value of the ship between its 2 roles, it costs almost as much as the large mining barge.
- just a point.... i cant fly apocs or mine!
|
rocky mcdigsalot
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 14:09:00 -
[91]
To the folks that want to get rid of apoc mining.
I'm a miner.... i can shoot small lasers. I use my apoc to mine. Thats all i use it for. When they cant mine do i get a refund on my skill points? Do elves come from the trees to grease me up with lotion for my wasted time training something?
Leave the BS mining alone. Ive got no desire to mine ice, everyone else is welcome to the ice fields. all i do is mine to build with this toon. I dont want to have to jump back in an osprey for a month while i train up to superbarge.
|
rocky mcdigsalot
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 14:09:00 -
[92]
To the folks that want to get rid of apoc mining.
I'm a miner.... i can shoot small lasers. I use my apoc to mine. Thats all i use it for. When they cant mine do i get a refund on my skill points? Do elves come from the trees to grease me up with lotion for my wasted time training something?
Leave the BS mining alone. Ive got no desire to mine ice, everyone else is welcome to the ice fields. all i do is mine to build with this toon. I dont want to have to jump back in an osprey for a month while i train up to superbarge.
|
Usharin Silverberg
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 15:19:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Rephern Muare
all bs's should get hits to mining in them...maybe a 20% hit to mining in them. Then the bs can be in its true role, fighting
Good Idea, that - although I'd make it a 50% hit at the very least...
|
Usharin Silverberg
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 15:19:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Rephern Muare
all bs's should get hits to mining in them...maybe a 20% hit to mining in them. Then the bs can be in its true role, fighting
Good Idea, that - although I'd make it a 50% hit at the very least...
|
Lucre
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 15:37:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Johnny Atlas
Try 540 * 1.05^5 * 1.05^5 * 1.03^5 = 1019
Noone seems to be getting the amounts right. On paper and tested
Covetor = 1019m3 (tested on Sisi)
Apocalypse = 781m3
Retriever = 640m3 (tested on Exodus)
If an Apoc mines 781m3 per minute or 97.625 per laser, how come each laser on my Apoc (mining 5, astro 5) only mines 5 16m3 Ark/Bist per minute?
AFAIK the formula is 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75. Which is thus less than 96 and why I get 5 Bist/laser and not (as your formula/figure would have it) 6.
Likewise, my other character's Med barge pulls in 112 Bist per cycle at Mining 5, Astro 4, Barge 4. Again 540 * 1.25 * 1.20 * 1.12 = 907 m3 = 56 Bist per strip miner. Which is right. Whereas Your method would predict 942m3 or 58 Bist per miner - wrong!
I don't know how you tested these figures, but they don't match what I get!
Effects of individual skills multiply; effects of individual levels in those skills don't.
|
Lucre
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 15:37:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Johnny Atlas
Try 540 * 1.05^5 * 1.05^5 * 1.03^5 = 1019
Noone seems to be getting the amounts right. On paper and tested
Covetor = 1019m3 (tested on Sisi)
Apocalypse = 781m3
Retriever = 640m3 (tested on Exodus)
If an Apoc mines 781m3 per minute or 97.625 per laser, how come each laser on my Apoc (mining 5, astro 5) only mines 5 16m3 Ark/Bist per minute?
AFAIK the formula is 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75. Which is thus less than 96 and why I get 5 Bist/laser and not (as your formula/figure would have it) 6.
Likewise, my other character's Med barge pulls in 112 Bist per cycle at Mining 5, Astro 4, Barge 4. Again 540 * 1.25 * 1.20 * 1.12 = 907 m3 = 56 Bist per strip miner. Which is right. Whereas Your method would predict 942m3 or 58 Bist per miner - wrong!
I don't know how you tested these figures, but they don't match what I get!
Effects of individual skills multiply; effects of individual levels in those skills don't.
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Lucre
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:49:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Idara
Did I miss some extra added bonus? Or are the Mining Barges not all they're *****ed up to be?
Apoc mines 5 Ark/Miner II or 40 Ark per minute.
Large Barge mines 970m3/strip miner/3 minutes or 60 Ark per minute. 1200 Ark/hour more than Apoc.
I'd call a 50% increase in mining capacity reasonably significant, wouldn't you? Say, what, an extra 12 million isk per *hour*? Hardly to be sniffed at!
And that - as others have noted - is with the T1 strip miners...
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Lucre
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:49:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Idara
Did I miss some extra added bonus? Or are the Mining Barges not all they're *****ed up to be?
Apoc mines 5 Ark/Miner II or 40 Ark per minute.
Large Barge mines 970m3/strip miner/3 minutes or 60 Ark per minute. 1200 Ark/hour more than Apoc.
I'd call a 50% increase in mining capacity reasonably significant, wouldn't you? Say, what, an extra 12 million isk per *hour*? Hardly to be sniffed at!
And that - as others have noted - is with the T1 strip miners...
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flummox
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Posted - 2004.12.23 16:43:00 -
[99]
Edited by: flummox on 23/12/2004 17:15:48
2.5 pages and not one mention of the Modulated Strip Miner II or Crystals. and, at a glance, those numbers don't look right. let's check them out again so we can finally put to bed this topic of the barge "not being good enough"...
for the purpose of testing, we will use FULL skills. all values after calcs will be rounded to nearest whole number.
Miner II - (base 60 m3/cycle)
Maximum Output = 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75 m3/cycle
Strip Miner I - (base 540 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output = 540 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 970.3125 m3/cycle
Modulated Strip Miner II - (base 360 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output (w/o Crystal) = 360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 646.875 m3/cycle
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = 360 * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 1694.8125 m3
Okay, let's take a look at the ships...
Apoc w/8 Miner II's
1 Minute Cycle = 744 m3
3 Minute Cycle = 2232 m3
Retriever (Med Barge)
w/2 Strip Miner I's:
1 Minute Cycle = 646.666~ m3
3 Minute Cycle = 1940 m3 <-- Ouch. Med Barge gets pwned!
w/2 Modulated Strip Miner II's (w/Crystal):
1 Minute Cycle = 1129.333~ m3
3 Minute Cycle = 3388 m3 <-- Woah! Apoc gets smacked!
Coveter (Large Barge)
w/3 Strip Miner I's:
1 Minute Cycle = 970 m3
3 Minute Cycle = 2910 m3 <-- Apoc humbled again!
w/3 Modulated Strip Miner II's:
1 Minute Cycle = 1694 m3 <-- Front slap...
3 Minute Cycle = 5082 m3 <-- Backhand Bznitch Slapped!
so, we can see that even a medium barge with the Modded Miners and Crystal is far better than an Apoc. and the Large Barge just 0wnzors the Apoc like a little girl when it comes to mining...
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
flummox
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 16:43:00 -
[100]
Edited by: flummox on 23/12/2004 17:15:48
2.5 pages and not one mention of the Modulated Strip Miner II or Crystals. and, at a glance, those numbers don't look right. let's check them out again so we can finally put to bed this topic of the barge "not being good enough"...
for the purpose of testing, we will use FULL skills. all values after calcs will be rounded to nearest whole number.
Miner II - (base 60 m3/cycle)
Maximum Output = 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75 m3/cycle
Strip Miner I - (base 540 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output = 540 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 970.3125 m3/cycle
Modulated Strip Miner II - (base 360 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output (w/o Crystal) = 360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 646.875 m3/cycle
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = 360 * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 1694.8125 m3
Okay, let's take a look at the ships...
Apoc w/8 Miner II's
1 Minute Cycle = 744 m3
3 Minute Cycle = 2232 m3
Retriever (Med Barge)
w/2 Strip Miner I's:
1 Minute Cycle = 646.666~ m3
3 Minute Cycle = 1940 m3 <-- Ouch. Med Barge gets pwned!
w/2 Modulated Strip Miner II's (w/Crystal):
1 Minute Cycle = 1129.333~ m3
3 Minute Cycle = 3388 m3 <-- Woah! Apoc gets smacked!
Coveter (Large Barge)
w/3 Strip Miner I's:
1 Minute Cycle = 970 m3
3 Minute Cycle = 2910 m3 <-- Apoc humbled again!
w/3 Modulated Strip Miner II's:
1 Minute Cycle = 1694 m3 <-- Front slap...
3 Minute Cycle = 5082 m3 <-- Backhand Bznitch Slapped!
so, we can see that even a medium barge with the Modded Miners and Crystal is far better than an Apoc. and the Large Barge just 0wnzors the Apoc like a little girl when it comes to mining...
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
flummox
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 16:50:00 -
[101]
this thread should be officially changed to:
Apoc? - Battleship, Miner, or Little Girl ?
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
flummox
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 16:50:00 -
[102]
this thread should be officially changed to:
Apoc? - Battleship, Miner, or Little Girl ?
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
Mr Grumpy
|
Posted - 2005.06.30 16:25:00 -
[103]
Originally by: flummox
Miner II - (base 60 m3/cycle)
Maximum Output = 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75 m3/cycle
Strip Miner I - (base 540 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output = 540 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 970.3125 m3/cycle
Modulated Strip Miner II - (base 360 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output (w/o Crystal) = 360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 646.875 m3/cycle
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = 360 * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 1694.8125 m3
I see where you get the modifiers from (2.62= crystal 162%,1.25 skill modifier etc) but what about the modulated strip miner? Fair enough the base value is 360 units but did you notice the little note at the bottom which reads "specialty crystal mining amount
360 Ore units". Does this mean your calc should read:
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = (360 + 360) * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 3389.625 m3? 
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Neue Regel
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:47:00 -
[104]
I am a new player, 2 months. I have been reserching this issue with mining barges and I find that the that it will be faster for me to research using a apoc rather than the Covetor. I am minmatar, so I have to train Amarr to BS II. That will take me just about 10.5 days with the skills I have.
To train for the Covetor, it will take me 40 days. It is a no brainer for me. The difference in isk I can make in those 30 days compared to what I am now making in my current setup is tremendous. The cost of the BS vrs the Covetror is not an issue for me, I am a miner afterall and make plenty of isk. I know I will end up better off in the long run going the covetor route, Strip Miner II's will be here eventually, but hopefully when I decide to train for it, I will have much better implants and advanced learning by then so maybe the 40 days turn into 30.
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Pyro Miner
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:48:00 -
[105]
i want to add a few + points to the barge
the t2 crystals are able to get 20% more ore from a roid
then a normal miner, so thats a very usefull mining good roids and get more out of them
(if a roid has 100 veldpar inside. you get 120 out of it with the t2 crystals)
dunno if that also works on modulated deep core miners, as i never used those
i also like the 15k range the barge has + the fast llocking speed and i like the 3 min cycle on roids and the 7.5 min cycle on ice.. more relaxing then the 1 min (can play other games while mining in eve  )
downside is that when a roids pops your mining beam is not getting anything for that cycle, that is something ccp must fix that the beam deactives directly when that hapends
and i like how they look 
dont forget you ned to be a uber refiner/miner to be able to use t2 crystals
_______________________________________________
Pyro is the name...
Burning asteroids is my game... |
Tharrn
|
Posted - 2005.06.30 16:56:00 -
[106]
Bad, bad necroposter :P
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Larno
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:25:00 -
[107]
Well the way I see it, there are 4 combinations, each with their own advantages and disadvantages;
1. Apoc w/Miner II's
Lowest Skill Requirements, Lowest yield, high price, high survivability, may already have ship for PvP, 1 minute cycle, no ice mining
2. Apoc w/Modulated Deep Core Miner II's
Average Skill Requirements, Average yield, Highest Price, high survivability, may already have ship for PvP, 3 minute cycle (must stagger lasers), no ice mining
3. Covetor w/Strip Miner I's
High Skill Requirements, High yield, Lowest Price, Lowest surviability, no use other than mining, 3 minute cycle (can take up to 6 minutes AFK), can ice mine
4. Covetor w/Modulated Strip Miner II's
Highest Skill Requirements, Highest yield, High price, Lowest surviability, no use other than mining, 3 minute cycle (can take up to 6 minutes AFK), can ice mine
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Nero Scuro
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:28:00 -
[108]
If people haven't catched on yet - this post is dead and old. The original poster posted that BEFORE mining barges were released. They quite obviously do not suck, because people fly them all the time.
---
So, what was that you fed me?
Battery acid, mostly.
That must be why I feel charged up! Ho ho!
Actually, you'll just die.
...oh. |
Aenigma
|
Posted - 2005.06.30 17:35:00 -
[109]
Despite the fact that this is a thread risen from the dead, Mining barges still can't mine mercox at any agreeable rate. So, basically we must use a battleship for mining mercoxite instead of the far more specialized mining barge. Specialization ftw 
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true sight
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:54:00 -
[110]
Edited by: true sight on 30/06/2005 17:58:38
Originally by: DeerHunter GE
Also the cost factor for these ships is much better than an tier 2 BS
errrr... yeah...... its not as cheap as you think, and the insurance payout is less if you loose it.
Covetor 33m
MSM II 21m x3 = 63m
TOTAL: 96mil
Insurance payout < 96mil
Apoc 120m
Miner II pfft.. why bother costing them
Apoc Insurance > 96mil.
LINKAGE
Take a Look at this, I posted it last month, its my personal statistics on using a Covetor with 10 harvesters, 3 strip miners and tech2 crystals, whilst currently the diagrams on the thread only show my results for Veldspar/Scordite and Plagioclase, i will be adding Pyroxeres, Omber and Kernite soon (Getting the processing skills to lvl4 is a *****.)
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Roshan longshot
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Posted - 2005.06.30 18:33:00 -
[111]
Originally by: jukriamrr
Repeat the following sentence a thousand times:
"Apocs were not originally meant for mining"
Fact is, they are good at it... just because the are, however, does not mean the barges should have stats and capabilities based on a ship used not for its primary role.
I yearn for the day when there will be mining hardpoints. No more mining in apocs :) But that's just me ;)
Niether are frigates, destroyers, cruisers, or haulers. But they were the ships we had to use to mine...
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter,pirate[/i] or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box and from this site.
|
Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.06.30 18:37:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Idara
That's hardly worth the extra training time and the inherant weakness in the Mining Barge's defenses.
As opposed to the training time and expense to equip and fly an Apoc? And it's not like an Apoc outfitted for mining is going to hold its own in 0.0 against a big nasty spawn any better than a Covetor.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Joshua Foiritain
|
Posted - 2005.06.30 18:39:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Idara
Med Barge Vs Apoc
Small Barge = Frigate sized
Medium Barge = Cruiser sized
LArge Barge = Bs sized.
Comparing a med barge with an apoc is like complaing about destroyers not being to haul as much as indys.
Anyhow, mining sucks 
------------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Alazais
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Posted - 2005.06.30 18:45:00 -
[114]
Isn't the most simple way to look at this "How fast can you fill a can with an apoc vs barge?"
I can fill a can (27,500m¦)in my barge in 25 minutes using 3 strip miner II's and 3 tech II crystals.
I doubt an Apoc can even touch that :P
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pulse1976
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Posted - 2005.07.01 08:17:00 -
[115]
Edited by: pulse1976 on 01/07/2005 08:18:49
Edited by: pulse1976 on 01/07/2005 08:18:09
Originally by: Mr Grumpy
Originally by: flummox
Miner II - (base 60 m3/cycle)
Maximum Output = 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75 m3/cycle
Strip Miner I - (base 540 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output = 540 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 970.3125 m3/cycle
Modulated Strip Miner II - (base 360 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output (w/o Crystal) = 360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 646.875 m3/cycle
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = 360 * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 1694.8125 m3
I see where you get the modifiers from (2.62= crystal 162%,1.25 skill modifier etc) but what about the modulated strip miner? Fair enough the base value is 360 units but did you notice the little note at the bottom which reads "specialty crystal mining amount
360 Ore units". Does this mean your calc should read:
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = (360 + 360) * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 3389.625 m3?
I wish I never looked at this old thread now  Nevermind. Anyhow all i wanted to know was if you use a modulated minerII do you get the base plus an extra 360 for the crystal plus the modifier for the crystal??
And mining doesn't suck especially when you want to fill that 10mill buy order......
7days to lvl Mining barge!!!!
P.S. Mr Grumpy is my alt!
|
Gamer4liff
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Posted - 2005.07.01 08:19:00 -
[116]
as somebody who flies a covetor and trained for months beforehand for it, i still think it was worth it, and it will be more so when t2 strip miners come out and whatnot.
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Valerie Ganor
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Posted - 2005.07.01 08:47:00 -
[117]
wow..
talk about dragging the old threats out from the dead...
-----------------------------------------------
Win the crowd... |
csebal
|
Posted - 2005.07.01 08:50:00 -
[118]
I think, that skill point wise it is much faster to learn apoc, than to learn mining barge. Then again, i may be wrong.
Anyway. The small barge is a joke. Even an osprey mines better.
The medium barge is decent. Almost produces the output of a apoc, which is nice.
The large barge is without question the best out there. 10 harvesters, 3 strip miners. It has at least 1.5x the mining capacity of an apoc, and with modulated strip miners / crystals, you can improve that ratio somewhat.
All barges are made out of paper however, so their usage is extremely limited to high-sec systems, or protected mining ops.
I think that the only barge, that is worth training for - on the long run - is the covetor. Why? Because that has a significant increase in ore output compared to the next best mining ship.
Sure, learning that barge lv5 skills is a real pain in the a$$, but those, who take mining seriously will realize, that it is more than worth it. The step between an apoc and a covetor, or a retriever and a covetor is like stepping from a low-end cruiser into an apoc for mining.
2 hours of mining with a covetor equal 3 hours of mining with a apoc. That means, that for every 4 hour mining session, you basically get 2 more apoc hour worth of ore.
If thats not enough, then what is?
btw: covetors could really use some love, but they could easily become overpowered, if they are too well defended. My only problem with them is their speed. Getting from point a to point b without insta BMs, or warping to far away asteroids, then back to my target.. well, it just takes ages.
It makes me feel ashamed, when the iteron V, packed with 5 cargo expanders overtakes my covetor, like if i would be standing.
-------------
This post is nothing more than my personal opinion. It does not represent the official standpoint of Fountain Alliance, or the HUN Corporation in any way.
------------- |
Lustralis
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Posted - 2005.07.01 09:13:00 -
[119]
Originally by: csebal
The large barge is without question the best out there. 10 harvesters, 3 strip miners. It has at least 1.5x the mining capacity of an apoc, and with modulated strip miners / crystals, you can improve that ratio somewhat.
But you are including the harvestors in that calculation of course? Maybe it might look a little more attractive when we get mining drones that have decent throughput, don't cost 8,000,000 each and can last long enough to scoop to drone bay when a spawn appears.
What is the comparison like between the best barge and the Apoc for example, without drones?
|
BlueSmok
|
Posted - 2005.07.01 09:21:00 -
[120]
Someone kill it before it spreads!! ARg the *mAdNess!*
*Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security.
Bene Gesserit Coda |
Genevieve Blue
|
Posted - 2005.07.01 10:17:00 -
[121]
Originally by: pulse1976
Edited by: pulse1976 on 01/07/2005 08:18:49
Edited by: pulse1976 on 01/07/2005 08:18:09
Originally by: Mr Grumpy
Originally by: flummox
Miner II - (base 60 m3/cycle)
Maximum Output = 60 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 93.75 m3/cycle
Strip Miner I - (base 540 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output = 540 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 970.3125 m3/cycle
Modulated Strip Miner II - (base 360 m3/cycle; 3 min cycles)
Maximum Output (w/o Crystal) = 360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 646.875 m3/cycle
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = 360 * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 1694.8125 m3
I see where you get the modifiers from (2.62= crystal 162%,1.25 skill modifier etc) but what about the modulated strip miner? Fair enough the base value is 360 units but did you notice the little note at the bottom which reads "specialty crystal mining amount
360 Ore units". Does this mean your calc should read:
Maximum Output (w/Crystal) = (360 + 360) * 2.62 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 3389.625 m3?
I wish I never looked at this old thread now Nevermind. Anyhow all i wanted to know was if you use a modulated minerII do you get the base plus an extra 360 for the crystal plus the modifier for the crystal??
And mining doesn't suck especially when you want to fill that 10mill buy order......
7days to lvl Mining barge!!!!
Both these calculations are incorrect I think. The % increase is not 162%, because base x the modifier 1.62 is only a 62% increase.
In effect, the 360 lower base x 1.62 = 583.2 Compared to the strip miner 1 base figure of 540.
This means the Strip Miner 2 with the T1 crystal is infact only 8% better, whilst with a T2 crystal this becomes 16% over the Strip Miner 1 because of its modifier of 1.75
Thus with T2 crystals and Strip Miner 2s, the yield becomes 360 x 1.75 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.15 = 1,132 per cycle, compared to the previous 970.
|
Bsport
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Posted - 2005.07.01 10:18:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Bsport on 01/07/2005 10:18:46
the biggest question is can the the market supply keep up with demand considering the requirements of dreads and freighters, outposts, and the lower mining population current.. ie do we need bigger barges to keep up supply and stop there being a shortage. 6 turrent mining barge muahaha
--------
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F'nog
|
Posted - 2005.07.01 10:23:00 -
[123]
Ewwwwww, Necromancy is sick and wrong
Originally by: Gamer4liff
as somebody who flies a covetor and trained for months beforehand for it, i still think it was worth it, and it will be more so when t2 strip miners come out and whatnot.
Um, T2 Strip Miners have been out for months.
|
Genevieve Blue
|
Posted - 2005.07.01 10:25:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Genevieve Blue on 01/07/2005 10:29:12
Originally by: Lustralis
Originally by: csebal
The large barge is without question the best out there. 10 harvesters, 3 strip miners. It has at least 1.5x the mining capacity of an apoc, and with modulated strip miners / crystals, you can improve that ratio somewhat.
But you are including the harvestors in that calculation of course? Maybe it might look a little more attractive when we get mining drones that have decent throughput, don't cost 8,000,000 each and can last long enough to scoop to drone bay when a spawn appears.
What is the comparison like between the best barge and the Apoc for example, without drones?
With Strip Miner 2s and T2 Crystals, you would yield 1,132 per minute in a barge as noted above. (3 miners each with a 3 minute cycle).
With an Apoc, assuming you could fit it out with 8 Modulated Strip Miner 2s and T2 crystals, you would yield as follows I think:
120 x 1.75 x 1.25 x 1.25 = 328.125 in a 3 minute cycle per laser.
328.125 / 3 = 109.375 x 8 lasers = 875 per minute. (Amazingly enough 16% over the Miner 2s again at their peak of 750 per minute.)
In effect, the Strip Miner 1's base of 540 over 3 minutes is equivalent to 3 Miner 2s at 60 per minute. Having 3 Strip Miners means the Covetor in effect has 9 vs 8 lasers.
Couple this with a 15% bonus for the skill and it's easy to see that there really is a step up from the Apoc.
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Selena 001
|
Posted - 2005.07.01 10:55:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Selena 001 on 01/07/2005 10:59:21
Originally by: Idara
I've been looking at the Mining Barges and the like this morning, and have decided to do a little calculating to figure out if they really are that much better...
....
Well let's look at the Covetor then
540 + 65% (L5 Mining Barge adds 15% to the basic skills) = 891 ore per/cycle, times 3 = 2673 ore per/cycle, again dividing by 3 we get...891 ore per/minute.
That's hardly worth the extra training time and the inherant weakness in the Mining Barge's defenses.
Your calculations are a little out... 3 strip miners on a large barge gives just shy of 1Km^3 per minute (with full skills).... somehow u dont think you'll be getting near that amount from an Apoc.
It does have its drawbacks... Training time (but hey... its all about specialization now isnt it  ), Limited defence (you just need to know what your doing - it is possible to tank and kill 2 50K cruisers in one) and the 3 min cycle (meaning if theres only 5M^3 of ore, it still takes 3 mins to get it ).
Then ofc, you can use tech 2 strip miners (which believe me, are NOT on par with other tech 2 items - having them give an extra 25 or 50% like most tech 2 items do would be nice) but it still boosts than number by a few 100 with the right crystals.
* eek... I just quoted the original poster.... how old is this thread anyways? *
___________
*I only have 5 months left of 'knowing at all'... I had better put it to good use* |
Nicklas Larsson
|
Posted - 2005.07.01 11:14:00 -
[126]
The maximum yield i have got is 1501 per minute. this is with techII stripminers and crystals and with 10 harvesters.
1501 is really good, but it's very expencive to make this, but i can easyely say that i have mine in the money many times :))
Nicklas Larsson
Ceo of The New Order. |
DeODokktor
|
Posted - 2005.07.01 11:57:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Druid R
if ur comparing the apoc at full mining/astro then have to compare barge at lvl 5, also for a new player, ie without many skills it amkes much more sense to go for barge, and dont forget not everybody is amarr and so has to train up all the amarr ship skills > waste of time when barge is there
You can train to an apoc faster than a large barge
If you start out with no skills for either.
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Selena 001
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Posted - 2005.07.01 13:04:00 -
[128]
Barges - Best pure mining ship
Apoc - Best Defensive mining ship
You can argue all you like, but the numbers speak for thmselves... you just need to figure out the cost / profitability / risk rating of where your mining.
Empire 1 to 0.5 - Barge with drones is more than sufficent
0.4 to 0.0 - Barge at ur own risk 
___________
*I only have 5 months left of 'knowing at all'... I had better put it to good use* |
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