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Two serious questions for the "Highsec Carebear"

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Mallak Azaria 257	Posted - 2012.07.03 11:38:00 - [541] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: In other news news, I decided to abseil with out the proper equipment or training & fell out of my harness. I hit the branches of several trees on my way down which undoubtedly saved my life. The ground however, broke my legs, spine & left shoulder & I will be unable to walk for the next several months. IMO a single patch of ground doing such damage to the human body is just taking advantage of unbalanced life mechanics. Sounds really stupid doesn't it? That's because life, just like EVE, is not fair. Extreme sports? If yes, you should know about involved risks and you take those risks willingly. The Hulk pilot should also know about involved risks & take them willingly. It was just a silly real life comparison though. In truth, I rarely leave the house except to go to work, because life is scary.
AlleyKat The Unwanted. 296	Posted - 2012.07.03 11:51:00 - [542] - Quote Quote: 1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response. 2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question 1. Hmm, I haven't locked someone since '08 in FRICK, I guess I can answer these. 1: Not really about ISK, more about the transference of ISK into goods. So, losing a ship is more about losing a ship than the ISK is costs to get it back. As I keep ships for long periods of time and spin them in stations whilst talking to people, or flying past Chribba in Amarr, I doubt losing a ship is gonna happen anytime soon. 2: 10% Return On Investment. I put 100 mill into something, I should get 110 mill back. If I invest time into something, that's much harder to calculate; as far as I am aware, the only way to calculate time fiscally is PLEX. (30 day plex / 30) / 23 = hourly rate of playtime in ISK (x) (x * invested time in hours) + 10% = acceptable ROI for EVE activities directed related to bearin'. 10% is reasonable, as the EVE Economy pretty much has this cost percentile built-in to a lot of station services and trading/industrial activites. AK GÇ£You go into combat, and itGÇÖs NOT going to be WagnerGÇªindustrial techno or really hard drum and bassGÇ¥ Reynir Hardarson, founding member of CCP Games, 2002. somethingjustgotreal.com
DeMichael Crimson Republic University Minmatar Republic 3416	Posted - 2012.07.03 11:53:00 - [543] - Quote Mallak Azaria wrote: Please tell us about how mining is not PvP. Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP. Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP.
Mallak Azaria 257	Posted - 2012.07.03 12:47:00 - [544] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: Please tell us about how mining is not PvP. Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP. Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP. Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP. Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP.
Alaya Carrier Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 49	Posted - 2012.07.03 12:49:00 - [545] - Quote Mallak Azaria wrote: DeMichael Crimson wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: Please tell us about how mining is not PvP. Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP. Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP. Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP. Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP. So, WoW is a PvP game now?
Mallak Azaria 257	Posted - 2012.07.03 12:52:00 - [546] - Quote Alaya Carrier wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: DeMichael Crimson wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: Please tell us about how mining is not PvP. Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP. Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP. Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP. Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP. So, WoW is a PvP game now? We're talking about EVE little man.
Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State 97	Posted - 2012.07.03 13:07:00 - [547] - Quote Mallak Azaria wrote: The Hulk pilot should also know about involved risks & take them willingly. So, I should ignore all "tank your Hulk" stuff and go for max yield/cargo? No.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 116	Posted - 2012.07.03 13:10:00 - [548] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: (...) Is it really "The Rush" being the only factor you don't like the ship-to-ship PVP aspect of the game? As I think as him, I wil answer too... it's not just "the rush", it's the impossibility to disincentive it within a ruleset aimed at make abuse as easy and amusing as possible for the perpretators and don't give a **** of the victims. Even gankers have a predator. It can be the market or other gankers. Or the blob. People who perform under the average always resent those who perform better. The real question is: are the same tools given to everyone? Since the answer is yes, if your choice is sub-optimal you can only blame yourself. The same tools? HAH! A miner's tool is a tankless ship worth 400 million and which takes several months to fly, whereas a ganker's tool is a ship the noobs get from the tutorials for free and worth 2 million at most. Of course, the miner can go sub-optimal and tank the Hulk with a hundred million iSK so it makes a bigger killmail once it meets a gang with four additional hooligans. And then they will have a laugh for the miner's pitiful effort to tank the Hulk. In order to play his game, a miner puts on the table a giant bullseye worth many hours of his life, whereas gankers put nothing worthy on the table. So, "same tools" my ass. You seem to deliberately misunderstand my post, but on the off-chance you really did here is what I meant: Both the "ganker" and the "miner" started with a similar skillset and were told "go play EVE, find your own destiny, dare to be bold...". All play-styles were available to both and only their personal choice made them into the "class" they seem stuck in. So by your logic, 20 T1 frigates killing one Faction-Fitted Faction battleship would be OP, especially is said pilot was only prepared to shoot NPC rats. Cost should never be a factor towards immunity. In EVE, ingenuity and cunning reward you far more efficiently than the isk you put in your ship.
Mallak Azaria 257	Posted - 2012.07.03 13:13:00 - [549] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: The Hulk pilot should also know about involved risks & take them willingly. So, I should ignore all "tank your Hulk" stuff and go for max yield/cargo? No. This is relevant how?
Reft Ar'en Caldari Provisions Caldari State 2	Posted - 2012.07.03 13:15:00 - [550] - Quote 1. Reasonable amount of risk - I think that differs from person to person. If I were to lose a Raven to gankers or even NPCs, I wouldn't break a sweat. That's what happens. On the other hand, if I were to lose my faction scorp, then I would not be a happy camper. I'd probably hop in my Hawk and go find someone in low sec to vent my frustration on. With rockets. 2. I tend to make around 100mil a day from missions. I run them for a couple hours, usually while I watch TV or listen to music. Hell, sometimes I passively run them while I'm pre-gaming with my friends. Some days, if I'm lucky, I get a story-line mission that gives a T2 implant or something of that nature and I walk away with 300mil or even a PLEX. Those are nice days. All-in-all, while not the most engaging way to play, care-bearing is entertaining and profitable. Although, for me at least, it's more of a place-holder while I skill up and practice PvP.
Andoria Thara Fallen Avatars 68	Posted - 2012.07.03 13:35:00 - [551] - Quote Reft Ar'en wrote: All-in-all, while not the most engaging way to play, care-bearing is entertaining and profitable. Although, for me at least, it's more of a place-holder while I skill up and practice PvP. Pretty much. When I'm waiting for a skill to finish training, rather than sitting in a station ship spinning, I sit in a belt and mine some ore. I can spin my ship while making iskies in a belt.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 116	Posted - 2012.07.03 13:37:00 - [552] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: I would like to ask two questions to anyone who considers him/herself a "highsec carebear". So my questions are the following: 1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response. 2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question 1. --- EDIT 1 --- (after 5 pages) (POST #91) --- So anyways... 5 pages I there is barely anyone who actually responded to the questions. Is it because the real highsec dwellers simply adapted and are playing the game or because they do not exist? --- EDIT 2 --- (after 24 pages) (POST #480) --- I believe the hulk vs suicide ganker topic has been hammered out. Let's keep it to the OP topic please. What I am essentially asking highsec dwellers is : What, in your opinion, is a proper counter to your "safer PVE" if not suicide ganking or wardeccing. It easy to call something overpowered or not fair, but what is your idea of fair then? There are many activities in EVE and "getting your killmails" is not the only way to counter something. I think 100% safety in highsec is not fair while you can still keep supplying isk and items into the economy. It would make highsec income grossly overpowered in regards to other sec regions. So, after 24 pages the OP finally makes the intent of this thread clear. In answer to your questions : 1 - NOYB 2 - NOYB Since this is actually just another thread trying to promote or justify Suicide Ganking of Mining Ships in High Security, the only answer befitting this survey is None Of Your Business. Now if this thread was actually about a real Suicide Gank, like 1/2 dozen Mercs in Battleships who spend weeks to months tracking a target, using Locator Agents and then scanning said target in system to hot drop and assassinate target in high security, then maybe it would be worth an answer. If you took the time to read this thread up a little you would see I was trying to avoid the suicide ganking topic, but to your advantage I have decided to overlook the fact you were hasty as this thread has reached 20+ pages. Let me ask you this though (while we are on the topic); won't nerfing suicide ganking only skew the suicide ganker population towards those who "do it for lols"? There is 2 types of suicide gankers: - Those who do it for profit (falls into "honorable" PVP) - Those who do it for lols (falls into "griefing") Which group do you think gets nerfed more when the cost increases?
Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State 97	Posted - 2012.07.03 13:38:00 - [553] - Quote Mallak Azaria wrote: This is relevant how? I know the risks. But why should I take those risks if I don't want to? Of course my isk/hr isn't perfect if I tank my Hulk, but I've never played EVE for max isk/hr. EVE is video game and I want to have fun playing it and relax instead of playing it 12 hours a day and taste of blood in my mouth.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 116	Posted - 2012.07.03 13:48:00 - [554] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: This is relevant how? I know the risks. But why should I take those risks if I don't want to? Of course my isk/hr isn't perfect if I tank my Hulk, but I've never played EVE for max isk/hr. EVE is video game and I want to have fun playing it and relax instead of playing it 12 hours a day taste of blood in my mouth. So you agree now that untanked hulks are easier targets than tanked hulks? You also agree that tanked hulks yield less profit but "hey, at least I have less chances of getting ganked"? Same thing for any other ship class (non-miners): they need to find the right balance between dps, tank, speed and ewar. No ship can have the highest dps, the highest speed and the highest tank + ewar (one USED to have that, called the dramiel. Guess what happened to it) Mining ships need to only balance two things: mining efficiency and tank. A ship that has the highest mining efficiency cannot have the highest tank. In fact, because of only those two factors, the highest mining yield should automatically have the lowest tank. But hey, since even those two factors are apparently hard to balance, CCP will be doing that for you soon Aren't you thankful?
Mallak Azaria 261	Posted - 2012.07.03 13:54:00 - [555] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: This is relevant how? I know the risks. But why should I take those risks if I don't want to? No one is forcing you to undock. If you choose press that undock button, you've also agreed to the risks & are now actively taking them.
Kyle Ward Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 157	Posted - 2012.07.03 13:57:00 - [556] - Quote Without reading either the OP or any posts in this thread, I'm going to answer: Q1 - Yes, definitely. Q2 - Probably no, but I'll have to get back to you on that... The Sandbox, you're playing it wrong!
Jimmy Gunsmythe Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 53	Posted - 2012.07.03 14:03:00 - [557] - Quote Alaya Carrier wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: DeMichael Crimson wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: Please tell us about how mining is not PvP. Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP. Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP. Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP. Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP. So, WoW is a PvP game now? Don't even bother trying to get anyone here to understand/accept the concept that labeling a PvE activity as a PvP activity makes every other MMO a PvPcentric game as well. You'll have better luck convincing a wall it's a floor or a ceiling. A good predator knows how to live in balance with his prey, lest he follow them into oblivion.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 116	Posted - 2012.07.03 14:08:00 - [558] - Quote Price Check Aisle3 wrote: This is a new and exciting thread that will deliver new and exciting discussion. With 100+ posts per day on average, it appears your voodoo foresight proved correct.
Andoria Thara Fallen Avatars 68	Posted - 2012.07.03 14:12:00 - [559] - Quote Gives me something to do other than work.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 8341	Posted - 2012.07.03 15:47:00 - [560] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: That's your opinion. GÇªand also a rather fundamental design principle of the game: you choose how to fit it. If you choose to make it weaker, then you are at fault for it being weak GÇö it's not the game balance that makes it that way. Quote: Even with a full defensive fit up, the Hulk is still a wet bag that can be easily ripped apart just by sneezing on it. No. With a full defensive fit, the Hulk requires several tier-3 battlecruisers or battleships or a small fleet of destroyers to kill it. That is not the same thing as GÇ£sneezingGÇ¥. It has the same kind of tank as most cruisers GÇö yes, even some of the T2 cruisers. Quote: Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. GÇªaside from the unavoidable competition over resources that is deeply ingrained in the game, from the very basics (ore) to the thoroughly complex (trade competition over advanced ships and components). The miner just got to that ore first and denied the other players vying for the same kind of ore the use of this source of the ore in question. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
Andoria Thara Fallen Avatars 71	Posted - 2012.07.03 16:04:00 - [561] - Quote Tippia wrote: Quote: Even with a full defensive fit up, the Hulk is still a wet bag that can be easily ripped apart just by sneezing on it. No. With a full defensive fit, the Hulk requires several tier-3 battlecruisers or battleships or a small fleet of destroyers to kill it. That is not the same thing as GÇ£sneezingGÇ¥. It has the same kind of tank as most cruisers GÇö yes, even some of the T2 cruisers. You'll never get through to him. I seriously think there is a large percentage of ~~miners~~ players out there that have no idea what EHP even means. They've never downloaded EFT, and if they did they immediately closed it and looked up a fit on battleclinic. They have no idea what their mods even do, they just copy/paste whatever fit they find on the internet. I don't understand that mentality at all. If you're going to play the game, at least learn about the fundamentals of ship fitting.
Alaya Carrier Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 50	Posted - 2012.07.03 16:30:00 - [562] - Quote Alaya Carrier wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: DeMichael Crimson wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: Please tell us about how mining is not PvP. Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP. Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP. Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP. Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP. So, WoW is a PvP game now? Well you make it sound like taking ore another player could mine or selling stuff is something so PvP game-esque. Wrong, even PvE games have that.
Delen Ormand Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 85	Posted - 2012.07.03 16:34:00 - [563] - Quote Mallak Azaria wrote: Delen Ormand wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: I completely +1 you. Specially the part about time to replace the loss as a measure of risk. It is far more dangerous to fly a Hulk than to gank it as it costs 20x more time to lose a Hulk than to gank it. And yet miners are deemed "cowardly" whereas the gankers are deemed "elite"... guess WHO made upthat yardtstick. Funny part is, it's very often the same people who paint miners as risk-averse carebear cowards who'll be the first to say that everything is PvP in Eve - including mining. Add the risk from gankers, and miners should be worshipped as the true warriors of Eve.. Please tell us about how mining is not PvP. It's not PvP when people are doing it for non-PvP reasons.
Citsatllort Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2012.07.03 16:36:00 - [564] - Quote Of course you won't get a lot of answers because majority of people don't even bother to view this forum. Why would they?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 8343	Posted - 2012.07.03 16:37:00 - [565] - Quote Delen Ormand wrote: It's not PvP when people are doing it for non-PvP reasons. Problem is that you can't do it for non-PvP reasons. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
Delen Ormand Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 85	Posted - 2012.07.03 16:42:00 - [566] - Quote Tippia wrote: Delen Ormand wrote: It's not PvP when people are doing it for non-PvP reasons. Problem is that you can't do it for non-PvP reasons. You couldn't do it because, say, you found it kinda relaxing and gave you a chance to do something requiring minimal oversight while you chatted with your friends?
Alaya Carrier Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 50	Posted - 2012.07.03 16:45:00 - [567] - Quote Delen Ormand wrote: Tippia wrote: Delen Ormand wrote: It's not PvP when people are doing it for non-PvP reasons. Problem is that you can't do it for non-PvP reasons. You couldn't do it because, say, you found it kinda relaxing and gave you a chance to do something requiring minimal oversight while you chatted with your friends? Beware you have now engaged into a Tippia never ending, totally pointless perma-nitpicking argument. You'll never make out alive.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 8343	Posted - 2012.07.03 16:48:00 - [568] - Quote Delen Ormand wrote: You couldn't do it because, say, you found it kinda relaxing and gave you a chance to do something requiring minimal oversight while you chatted with your friends? So why are you mining rather than ship spinning? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 116	Posted - 2012.07.03 16:51:00 - [569] - Quote Delen Ormand wrote: It's not PvP when people are doing it for non-PvP reasons. Alaya Carrier wrote: Well you make it sound like taking ore another player could mine or selling stuff is something so PvP game-esque. Wrong, even PvE games have that. The intentions don't change the effect actions have on other players. Let's get something clear: PVP means Player versus player. Player versus player means competition. When I picked up loot faster than another player in Diablo 2, this was PVP. Even if we were all just killing AI monsters. When I shot more zombies in left 4 dead than my teammate, effectively "stealing his kills", it was PVP as we were competing for a high score. A PVE-only game is when any possible action you take has absolutely no competitive effect on another player, whether intended or not. PVP is competition.
Alaya Carrier Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 50	Posted - 2012.07.03 16:56:00 - [570] - Quote Thor Kerrigan wrote: Delen Ormand wrote: It's not PvP when people are doing it for non-PvP reasons. Alaya Carrier wrote: Well you make it sound like taking ore another player could mine or selling stuff is something so PvP game-esque. Wrong, even PvE games have that. The intentions don't change the effect actions have on other players. Let's get something clear: PVP means Player versus player. Player versus player means competition. When I picked up loot faster than another player in Diablo 2, this was PVP. Even if we were all just killing AI monsters. When I shot more zombies in left 4 dead than my teammate, effectively "stealing his kills", it was PVP as we were competing for a high score. A PVE-only game is when any possible action you take has absolutely no competitive effect on another player, whether intended or not. PVP is competition. So, care to list what MMOs are PvE-only? By your definitions, no PvE MMO exist yet they are played by the majority of population.

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