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Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would like to ask two questions to anyone who considers him/herself a "highsec carebear".
No hate, no judgement. In fact, I do not believe in "EVE classes"; I believe everyone is allowed to log-in and play the game the way they wish. I can "bear it up" Monday because I feel like it and then "gank it down" Tuesday because circumstances allow it. No one chooses their "class" when they start playing, all we do is choose an activity when we log in. Some activities are simply safer than others. (Key word here: safer)
Regardless, some of us choose exclusively activities with the least amount of risk - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This is usually what the carebear label designates: one who engages in low-risk activities.
So my questions are the following:
1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response.
2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question 1.
And before posting your answers, please remember that EVE remains a single-sharded universe and that even the 14-day trial noob can sell his free 1 unit of trit to the biggest 0.0 overlord and complete his buy order. In other words, the more isk you make, the more its overall value decreases for everyone. To increase value of an item, it needs to be harder to obtain. Also, feel free to answer using actual items for comparison such as specific ship class, modules or even PLEX. |
Private Pineapple
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
117
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Posted - 2012.06.30 20:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
1. Undocking is too risky.
2. I should be able to make billions per hour without undocking. EVE is unfair because I can't do that. I am the Kingpin of the Crime and Punishment forum. |
Price Check Aisle3
116
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
This is a new and exciting thread that will deliver new and exciting discussion. - Karl Hobb IATS |
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Private Pineapple wrote:1. Undocking is too risky.
2. I should be able to make billions per hour without undocking. EVE is unfair because I can't do that.
Lol forgot to add: and why do you think this would be healthy to the game overall. |
Infinitio Krystallos
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:I Regardless, some of us choose exclusively activities with the least amount of risk - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This is usually what the carebear label designates: one who engages in low-risk activities.
Your argument is flawed on the get-go by the ASSUMPTION that is has to with risk/reward.
Can it not enter your tiny brains that it is just what the particular person LIKES DOING ?
Stop this idiotic argument and close this ump-teen hundreth Thread about this stupid supposition. |
Price Check Aisle3
116
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
I steal your mission poo and I enjoy it. - Karl Hobb IATS |
Infinitio Krystallos
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote: 2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question .
Yet another flaw. I did not ASK or even TRY for or even KNOW ABOUT that Cruor BPC drop I received in a 3/10 DED site. |
pussnheels
439
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
1 you create your own risk like some people mentioned each time you undock you put yourself at risk , you accept that or this isn't your game how high this risk is depends on how you play it , if you are missionrunning in a factionfitted faction ship in a busy trade hub , you just asking to get ganked , if you are mining near a busy hub or a majoor trade route you will get ganked sooner than later if you flying a untanked hauler with a very valuable cargo to jite you know the niarja , uedama or perimeter gates will be the last gate you will reach those are just a few examples
2 the amount what you earn is in relation to how much work and effort and risk you are willing to put in , just as RL the more effort you put into something the higher the reward clear and simple I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Infinitio Krystallos wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote:I Regardless, some of us choose exclusively activities with the least amount of risk - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This is usually what the carebear label designates: one who engages in low-risk activities.
Your argument is flawed on the get-go by the ASSUMPTION that is has to with risk/reward. Can it not enter your tiny brains that it is just what the particular person LIKES DOING ? Stop this idiotic argument and close this ump-teen hundreth Thread about this stupid supposition.
When an activity generates profit inside such a sandbox environment it does not matter if that's your main motivator. Any profit you make, whether you like it or not, will affect the economy in-game.
But let me get this straight - for all you care, if your activities provided you with absolutely no profit, you would still like doing it? You are fine with highsec being 100% safe but with absolutely 0 rewards? Please explain how this would affect new players.
Whether you like it or not, I am still only asking about the minimal/maximal amount of profit you would find acceptable. |
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Infinitio Krystallos wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote: 2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question .
Yet another flaw. I did not ASK or even TRY for or even KNOW ABOUT that Cruor BPC drop I received in a 3/10 DED site.
How is your loss my flaw? |
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Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:1 you create your own risk like some people mentioned each time you undock you put yourself at risk , you accept that or this isn't your game how high this risk is depends on how you play it , if you are missionrunning in a factionfitted faction ship in a busy trade hub , you just asking to get ganked , if you are mining near a busy hub or a majoor trade route you will get ganked sooner than later if you flying a untanked hauler with a very valuable cargo to jite you know the niarja , uedama or perimeter gates will be the last gate you will reach those are just a few examples
2 the amount what you earn is in relation to how much work and effort and risk you are willing to put in , just as RL the more effort you put into something the higher the reward clear and simple
You state how the game is now. What I am interested is how a true carebear wants the game to be AND explain why he/she thinks it would be better. |
Denidil
Larimer Highlands Heavy Industries
285
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
I don't consider myself a highsec carebear as I do a little of everything, but I know some actual carebears and i'll answer what i think they'd say (not the hyperbole BS that some people expect)
1) suicide ganks should cost enough compared to the value of the target to deter casual ganks, ganks should be generally reserved for high value loot pinatas. "Free KMs" is another issue - loss mails should be issued for Concordokken
2) that is harder to answer. low sec and 0.0 activities should pay more, collaborative activities should pay more.
Ship hull prices should has some connection to how long it takes to mine the resources to make them, and outside of market manipulation situations they do.
However when have an overly bottle necked resource in the resource list for the hull then you have a situation where market manipulation can arise. Unfortunately the most important ship in providing the resources to build all hulls has a bottlenecked resource in its resource requirements, leading to a situation in which market manipulation has inflated the price so a campaign of suicide attacks can take place at a large alliance level profit. This market manipulation would be harder, and there would be much less financial incentive, if the target hulls had EHP more in line with a more realistic amount for a "Deep space 0.0 corp designed vessel".
I don't know any carebear who thinks that Eve should be 100% safe anywhere, the carebears I know are just sick and tired of having bullshit made up about them and constantly worrying about loosing a 200m isk hull to a 1 mil isk hull
I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Infinitio Krystallos
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:Infinitio Krystallos wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote: 2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question .
Yet another flaw. I did not ASK or even TRY for or even KNOW ABOUT that Cruor BPC drop I received in a 3/10 DED site. How is your loss my flaw?
...and then you make no sense. Period.
Drunkpoasting is always a really bad idea. |
Infinitio Krystallos
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
You state how the game is now. What I am interested is how a true carebear wants the game to be AND explain why he/she thinks it would be better.
And why do you want to know these things ? Where is the true intellectual drive ? |
Romar Agent
Ishukone Regional Headquarters
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response. I don't mind loosing anything. I'm not thinking in ways of more or less risk.
Thor Kerrigan wrote:2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question 1. I would be happy with not making any profit at all. Most of the time, I'm on a negative income anyway (investments...).
I just want to play the way I want to play. If that way incorporates high risk, I'll do it. And I don't mind if I get any profit out of my game. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Infinitio Krystallos wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote:I Regardless, some of us choose exclusively activities with the least amount of risk - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This is usually what the carebear label designates: one who engages in low-risk activities.
Your argument is flawed on the get-go by the ASSUMPTION that is has to with risk/reward. Can it not enter your tiny brains that it is just what the particular person LIKES DOING ? Stop this idiotic argument and close this ump-teen hundreth Thread about this stupid supposition.
I like ganking the occasional miner. Why should I be stopped from doing what I like? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Infinitio Krystallos
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote: You are fine with highsec being 100% safe but with absolutely 0 rewards? .
You singularly win the worst poaster of the year for your circuolar nonsense. Get out. |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote: 1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself".
Ridiculous question based on a subjective assumption. Let me explain. A reasonable risk is subjective to situation therefore is non-quantifiable. Does the titan pilot that loses his titan in a fight examine his reasonable risk factor - possibly...but he logs on because the game is there to be experienced. It could have ended differently...
Thor Kerrigan wrote: 2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make?
The "profit" I expect to make is the capability to interact with another person doing what the game entitles them to do. That is all the profit I want.
Would be interested to know the reason WHY you posted the questions ...
I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
Denidil wrote:
1) suicide ganks should cost enough compared to the value of the target to deter casual ganks, ganks should be generally reserved for high value loot pinatas. "Free KMs" is another issue - loss mails should be issued for Concordokken
I don't know any carebear who thinks that Eve should be 100% safe anywhere, the carebears I know are just sick and tired of having bullshit made up about them and constantly worrying about loosing a 200m isk hull to a 1 mil isk hull
First, you can Tank a Hulk such that it takes more isk than the Hulk is worth to gank with a reasonable number of characters. (You can also fly a Hulk such that you are immune to ganks)
Second, then you shouldn't have pushed for the Insurance nerf. Before that, people were using larger (more expensive) hulls with cheaper weapons. The insurance nerf made that expensive.
And finally, you can trivially tank a Hulk such that no single ship (available in the normal course of HS) can gank it. (A T2 Catalyst [15m+] can only solo gank an entirely untanked Hulk)
Like it or not, you make decisions with regards to your survival every time you undock. If you don't fit your ship so that it can deal with the potential threats, that's on you. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Infinitio Krystallos wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote: You are fine with highsec being 100% safe but with absolutely 0 rewards? . You singularly win the worst poaster of the year for your circuolar nonsense. Get out.
Your "contribution" to this discussion has been noted. Now get over yourself. |
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Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
75
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Infinitio Krystallos wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote:I Regardless, some of us choose exclusively activities with the least amount of risk - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This is usually what the carebear label designates: one who engages in low-risk activities.
Your argument is flawed on the get-go by the ASSUMPTION that is has to with risk/reward. Can it not enter your tiny brains that it is just what the particular person LIKES DOING ? Stop this idiotic argument and close this ump-teen hundreth Thread about this stupid supposition. I like ganking the occasional miner. Why should I be stopped from doing what I like?
What are you replying to? I don't see anything in the quote about stopping people from ganking miners.. |
Denidil
Larimer Highlands Heavy Industries
285
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:
First, you can Tank a Hulk such that it takes more isk than the Hulk is worth to gank with a reasonable number of characters. (You can also fly a Hulk such that you are immune to ganks)
.
i know how to tank a hulk, you can take out a "**** you tanked" hulk with a battlecruiser still. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Lipbite
Express Hauler
123
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
Most people play games to relax. So any amount of risk above 0% is way too much. |
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
107
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Delen Ormand wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Infinitio Krystallos wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote:I Regardless, some of us choose exclusively activities with the least amount of risk - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This is usually what the carebear label designates: one who engages in low-risk activities.
Your argument is flawed on the get-go by the ASSUMPTION that is has to with risk/reward. Can it not enter your tiny brains that it is just what the particular person LIKES DOING ? Stop this idiotic argument and close this ump-teen hundreth Thread about this stupid supposition. I like ganking the occasional miner. Why should I be stopped from doing what I like? What are you replying to? I don't see anything in the quote about stopping people from ganking miners..
I believe his point is that when someone likes doing something, it has no price. It is a common misconception that everyone plays with risk/reward in mind.
HOWEVER, all rewards affect the economy and the discussion tackles that issue. |
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
766
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
Posting in a thread where "Isk per hour" is the only reason people play this game.
I don't.
Nice to make ISK, yes, but if you're making it your bible, your only motive to play this game, then you fail at Eve.
The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
107
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
First, you can Tank a Hulk such that it takes more isk than the Hulk is worth to gank with a reasonable number of characters. (You can also fly a Hulk such that you are immune to ganks)
.
i know how to tank a hulk, you can take out a "**** you tanked" hulk with a battlecruiser still.
But where would the profit be in that? And if not for profit, then both players lose isk. You can't prevent 10 marauders killing a t1 frigate in highsec either but it can still be done if one trully wants to. |
Kimmi Chan
Illuminatus Reforged The Revenant Order
219
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response.
In any situation there are events and outcomes that I control and events and outcomes that I can not control. My philosophy is to manage the things I can control and not sweat the other **** because I can not control it anyways.
2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question 1.
This is a great question and one that I have asked recently. At what point does an individual player have enough ISK? I mean if you are not spending the ISK because you already have your Hulk or CNR and the skills to fly them to perfection, why do you need anymore ISK? What purpose does the ISK have if it is just sitting in your wallet? For me. once I have enough to replace the ship I am in I really can't think of any other reason to gain ISK. For the PvE/Mining Enthusiast, you're likely not replacing ships all too often unless you are not in control of something that you can control (see above). For the PvP enthusiast, on the other hand, they may have to buy a new ship daily or more frequently. So a constant stream of ISK makes sense for them.
I think this might be where there is a HUGE disparity. Don't get me wrong. My primary activity in EvE is grinding L4 missions in High Sec. I do, in fact, drink at the faucet of ISK. But occasionally, not often but occasionally, I do like to mix it up. I have said before that mission runners like to shoot the red + but if there is another human being behind that + they get skiddish about it. I think this type of aversion is strange. No one likes to be shot at. But we let the AI do it all the time. Maybe PvE/Mining enthusiasts dislike the derision that sometimes follows getting blown up or they see it as a challenge that they're ego can not deal with.
I do know that during the short time I spent in a PvP corp I found myself wondering, "How do I make money to continue doing this activity?" I guess I never found the answer.
I am a PvE enthusiast but do not think of myself as a carebear. If someone can blow my ship to bits it is because they were better than me and NOT because they are an *******. You will NEVER see me complaining about gankers needing to be nerfed or rewards in High Sec being buffed. All of those mechanics are fine the way they are. I have a disdain for the carebears that spooge on the forums to nerf ganking and buff their Risk-Free environment. Some even threaten to quit. To those people I say, "**** off with you. You don't belong here anyway." -á"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus |
Denidil
Larimer Highlands Heavy Industries
285
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:24:00 -
[28] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:Posting in a thread where "Isk per hour" is the only reason people play this game.
I don't.
Nice to make ISK, yes, but if you're making it your bible, your only motive to play this game, then you fail at Eve.
qft I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Romar Agent
Ishukone Regional Headquarters
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:25:00 -
[29] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:Posting in a thread where "Isk per hour" is the only reason people play this game.
I don't.
Nice to make ISK, yes, but if you're making it your bible, your only motive to play this game, then you fail at Eve.
+1 |
Denidil
Larimer Highlands Heavy Industries
285
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:28:00 -
[30] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:Denidil wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
First, you can Tank a Hulk such that it takes more isk than the Hulk is worth to gank with a reasonable number of characters. (You can also fly a Hulk such that you are immune to ganks)
.
i know how to tank a hulk, you can take out a "**** you tanked" hulk with a battlecruiser still. But where would the profit be in that? And if not for profit, then both players lose isk. You can't prevent 10 marauders killing a t1 frigate in highsec either but it can still be done if one trully wants to.
it is still profitable to burn brutixes on hulks. adding lossmails for concordokken would go a long way to discourage the gankbears. the upcoming exhumer revamp will go the rest of the way by making the market manipulation a lot less profitable. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
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