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chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.24 00:36:00 - [61] Originally by: CalinaNightCyn Originally by: chrisss0r i'm so glad the dps number is the only important thing in eve. things would get way too complicated otherwise oh yeah there are plenty of other stats that make a difference but the ability to actually kill someone helps a bunch IMO.. 660 dps isn't enough DPS to warrant a gank fitted legion with a garbage tank.. ergo you fit x3 faction weapon mods to legion you will have , what 3 low slots left for tank. so now you still have low dps Legion and you have a crap tank.. Legion is jack of all trades but master of none.. you can fit legion to do a lot of different roles , but in all cases the t2 variant role specific ship will out perform it now if it could use some drones on that 660 dps fit then maybe it would be more worth it still not grand and at least not as bad killing involves being able to apply your dps and especially solo most blasterboats lack that ability. if you really think a 1000 dps at 2km boat is the perfect solo choice then you are a mor.on. The most comon solo boats do exactly the opposite: low dps but the ability to apply them from further away and gtfo if neeeded. Jack of all trades is btw the very role of t3 ships so complaining about something that is working as intended is a but stuuupit
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.24 00:42:00 - [62] If they'd give the HAM sub system an extra range bonus (very non-amarr like, I know) then it would be a nice ship. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 00:45:00 - [63] oh and one last thing because you introduce a topic in this thread doesn't mean that it was or has anything to do with the actual Topic of this thread which still remains the same as the original post. and further more your topic has nothing to do with what i based my original post about legion on you have only showed that you can get a little more DPS out of the ship but that DPS still remains Low and underpowered comparatively to some t1 cruisers and other t2 cruisers. that do not require such a step skill set to use and that you do not lose sp if you lost it. as well as to other t3 ships which are capable of more tank and gank then you can pull out of legion.. and as far as credibility and knowing what im talking about shrugs I never claimed to be an Eve Guru. I'm calling it how i see it and basing all ship builds off of eft.. if you can supply 1000 dps legion build with a decent buffer or active tank then i will admit that I was wrong and legion is capable after all. however you can not.
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 01:00:00 - [64] Edited by: CalinaNightCyn on 24/03/2010 01:03:10 Edited by: CalinaNightCyn on 24/03/2010 01:01:44 Edited by: CalinaNightCyn on 24/03/2010 01:00:59 Originally by: chrisss0r Originally by: CalinaNightCyn Originally by: chrisss0r i'm so glad the dps number is the only important thing in eve. things would get way too complicated otherwise oh yeah there are plenty of other stats that make a difference but the ability to actually kill someone helps a bunch IMO.. 660 dps isn't enough DPS to warrant a gank fitted legion with a garbage tank.. ergo you fit x3 faction weapon mods to legion you will have , what 3 low slots left for tank. so now you still have low dps Legion and you have a crap tank.. Legion is jack of all trades but master of none.. you can fit legion to do a lot of different roles , but in all cases the t2 variant role specific ship will out perform it now if it could use some drones on that 660 dps fit then maybe it would be more worth it still not grand and at least not as bad killing involves being able to apply your dps and especially solo most blasterboats lack that ability. if you really think a 1000 dps at 2km boat is the perfect solo choice then you are a mor.on. The most comon solo boats do exactly the opposite: low dps but the ability to apply them from further away and gtfo if neeeded. Jack of all trades is btw the very role of t3 ships so complaining about something that is working as intended is a but stuuupit heh I actually had that thought as well.. cause clearly the energy turrets aren't cutting it :) great suggestion Take Care Cali Originally by: chrisss0r Originally by: CalinaNightCyn Originally by: chrisss0r i'm so glad the dps number is the only important thing in eve. things would get way too complicated otherwise oh yeah there are plenty of other stats that make a difference but the ability to actually kill someone helps a bunch IMO.. 660 dps isn't enough DPS to warrant a gank fitted legion with a garbage tank.. ergo you fit x3 faction weapon mods to legion you will have , what 3 low slots left for tank. so now you still have low dps Legion and you have a crap tank.. Legion is jack of all trades but master of none.. you can fit legion to do a lot of different roles , but in all cases the t2 variant role specific ship will out perform it now if it could use some drones on that 660 dps fit then maybe it would be more worth it still not grand and at least not as bad killing involves being able to apply your dps and especially solo most blasterboats lack that ability. if you really think a 1000 dps at 2km boat is the perfect solo choice then you are a mor.on. The most comon solo boats do exactly the opposite: low dps but the ability to apply them from further away and gtfo if neeeded. Jack of all trades is btw the very role of t3 ships so complaining about something that is working as intended is a but stuuupit this comes back 100% to pilot ability, ergo just because most pilots prefer or find it easier to shoot at long rng and do less dps doesn't men its anymore effective then shooting at a lower optimal doing much higher dps, and the ability or inability to manage your optimal in a fight is not the ships lack of ability. If I attack someone with a gank fitted Proteus I will be at optimal and maintain it. if I attack some one with a water gun dps legion i will be at optimal for that fight as well. I never said Proteus was a perfect solo ship, and the only reason its being compared so heavily to Legion is the fact that legion and Proteus are armor tanked and use laser weapons this makes the two t3 ships easier to compare on paper , however people tend to fancy going into the unknown and throwing out "But What if's" and you can't always chalk things up to work exactly like you planed things could always go wrong but I can attack with intentions of staying at optimal just as easily in both ships and it could go wrong just as easily also.. there are a number of ways to counter things going wr
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.24 01:05:00 - [65] and why don't you stop beeing fu.cking stuuuupid. YEAHH DPS EFT WARRIOR. A 250 dps vexor can give lubless ASS**** to your megaawesome 1000 dps proteus.
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2010.03.24 01:05:00 - [66] Races get one of 2. []A good set of CS. []A good T3 ship.
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 01:11:00 - [67] Originally by: chrisss0r Edited by: chrisss0r on 24/03/2010 01:07:50 and why don't you stop beeing fu.cking stuuuupid. YEAHH DPS EFT WARRIOR. A 250 dps vexor can give lubless ASS**** to your megaawesome 1000 dps proteus. you shrug off the argument that a legion easily wins at it's optimal with pilot ability and the act that a proteus wins at it's optimal. so how again does 1000000 DPS!!!!!!!! prove that the proteus is way better? I would reply rudely to make a point here but your comment in total already reflects you perfectly. and I have no 1000 dps Proteus I fly a legion. since you obviously haven't been paying attention. Cheers Cali
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.24 01:20:00 - [68] Edited by: chrisss0r on 24/03/2010 01:25:50 so you ARE complaining about how your 4x effective range ship does not do the dps of a very close range blasterboat? maybe you should just grow up or give up the attention whoring mr "i said i'd stop posting 4 times on the first page of the thread - yet i keep complaining in walls of text!!!!" and if i understand you correctly you started to play eve just recently und trained for the legion straight away. If that is the case have fun in your megawesome proteus once you trained for it. You may find it kinda dissapointing ;)
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 01:26:00 - [69] and just for the record I think tengu and loki are probably the two better t3 ships. I intend to fly a Proteus because Legion and Proteus share armor tanking skills and weapon support skills and I already have these finished and my alt already have skills for Guardian (Remote armor reping Logistics ship) and at a later date i would like to think I will also fly the other two. when i have time to skill alt for shield remote rep logi and Missile support skills etc on my main. So i choose Proteus as the first only because it it complimented skills i have already learned. and if Legion were better I wouldn't even bother. cali
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 01:44:00 - [70] Originally by: chrisss0r Edited by: chrisss0r on 24/03/2010 01:25:50 so you ARE complaining about how your 4x effective range ship does not do the dps of a very close range blasterboat? maybe you should just grow up or give up the attention whoring mr "i said i'd stop posting 4 times on the first page of the thread - yet i keep complaining in walls of text!!!!" and if i understand you correctly you started to play eve just recently und trained for the legion straight away. If that is the case have fun in your megawesome proteus once you trained for it. You may find it kinda dissapointing ;) ok let me chalk it up for you in "Stupid terms" Legion can not have the tank and gank fits the other t3's all have and it is underpowered to other ships in its class, as well as ships its supposed to be better then. I did not start playing Eve recently, I did not fly legion or even work towards it from the beginning. I know exactly what Proteus can do and can not do Just as I knew such about the legion before I flew it. as I have said already in this post. I guess everyone that starts a post is attention whoring , though i care none about such i didn't even use my main to post on the forums.. I am simply trying to have a conversation about a ship that is not great. some people beleave differently and Im happy to listen to reason. but so far no one has made a comment about the legion ship that proves its any better then exactly what i said was when I started the post.. instead they presume "well if the legion is at its optimal" it can win because of this reason or that reason.. but to imply that one ship has to be at is optimal means to imply that the other is not for it to win , so scrap the Bull****.. assume both ships are at there optimal and then which ship has more power and tank and the legion loses vrs all other t3 ships. Legion further more is not just under powered to t3 ships but also t2 and some t1 cruisers. the harbinger is well capable of doing 800dps and factioned fitted much more then that at almost the same rng as the legion. so why does it get a 800+ dps but its unfair for the legion to do it? when the legion requires a much higher skill prereqs and the the loss of sp when lost. these are the arguments <--- all else is really mute points Calina
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.24 01:54:00 - [71] Edited by: chrisss0r on 24/03/2010 01:55:06 Originally by: CalinaNightCyn assume both ships are at there optimal and then which ship has more power and tank and the legion loses vrs all other t3 ships. you create a setting that does not make sense in the eve reality. creating a scenario where only the downsides of a ship for some mystical reason count and then complaining about how the ship is bad is just stupid. with your arguing there is no reason in eve to fit long range weapons because comparing both ships at their optimal the close range weapons will always win. bwahaha all the idiots flying sniper ships harbiinger cannot warp cloaked or avoid bubbles or fit a bonused gang link etc
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 03:36:00 - [72] Edited by: CalinaNightCyn on 24/03/2010 03:37:12 Originally by: chrisss0r Edited by: chrisss0r on 24/03/2010 01:55:06 Originally by: CalinaNightCyn assume both ships are at there optimal and then which ship has more power and tank and the legion loses vrs all other t3 ships. you create a setting that does not make sense in the eve reality. creating a scenario where only the downsides of a ship for some mystical reason count and then complaining about how the ship is bad is just stupid. with your arguing there is no reason in eve to fit long range weapons because comparing both ships at their optimal the close range weapons will always win. bwahaha all the idiots flying sniper ships harbiinger cannot warp cloaked or avoid bubbles or fit a bonused gang link etc OMG your really as stupid as you sound.. Compare the stats of a ship with out rng is completely and utterly Relevant way to judge one ships overall ability against another.. all ships types using varied weapons will have an optimal rng , point in case is how much **ing dmg they can do at there optimal .. legion can do 660 with a fail fitted tank and Proteus can do 1000 DPS with a nice Buffer tank.. and *ing likewise moron "with your arguing there is no reason in eve to fit "Close"* range weapons.. and further more the optimal of a ship has nothing to do with what a ship is capable of doing at there optimal and not capable of and more of weather the pilot is capable of keeping there ship in there optimal rng or not. I could argue that Legion isn't capable of doing any DPS if the pilot doesn't toggle the gun on to fire and we would arrive at the same conclusion. the ship can shoot if the pilot holds up his end. w and no one said a god damn thing about harbinger warping cloaked and Legion can yes with the sub system but then your not even getting bad DPS out of legion anymore.. your getting sad DPS out of legion. though I wouldn't imagine you could comparatively tell the difference. Meh ~
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 03:52:00 - [73] For anyone interested in making a post here, instead of arguing rng on weapons and DPS how about just post a useful fit for legion and maybe explain a little how you use it be it in a gangs or solo .. this was after all supposed to be a discussion about the ship and I would rather not argue BS like rng vrs power balance on ships and would rather find out how people are making good use of the Legion.. So far there is a wormhole C3 solo fit that's really good and someone else posted a kinda of Utility ship fit for salvaging and hacking tractor beams etc.. I don't really see a wrong way to use a ship if it does what you intend it to do and works for you then that's all that matters in the end. and I will never post anything negative against any fit that is being used or listed here simply because uses for Legion are few and far between. and I would really like to know how other people are making use of this ship.. Cheers Cali
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.24 04:54:00 - [74] Edited by: chrisss0r on 24/03/2010 04:57:22 Edited by: chrisss0r on 24/03/2010 04:55:05 Protip: long range weapons have more range and close range weapons have more dmg. more dmg can be a good thing, for example in station games or when u have a gang that assures you will be able to apply the dps by pinning your target down. i really wonder why the f* you are not willing to accept this concept. But i guess i am just too stupid to find the "be at optimal at all times" button and find myself out of optimal every now and then. Whereas you are an megaawesome pilot who will be in optimal at all times in his plated 1000 dps ship of doom which is slower than a freaking snail frozen to a shovel all you do is saying that range doesn't matter and you only wanna compare the DPS(!!!!!!!!!!!!) while i say range **ing matters and it does so not only for some stupid arbitrary "whoever is in optimal by chance" reasons but: 1.Close range means you will be in scram and web and neutrange which gives you a lower chance to GTFO.2 2. Not only is your optimal important for piloting reasons but also because it determins your radius of action. While a close range ship has no chance to react to a longer range friend warping into the fight the longer range ship might be able to react. Let's say someone is stupid enough to uncloak a bomber close to your legion. PEW and the bomber is gone. But yeah the proteus can send it's drones and fall aleep while they are on their way. 3. Range let's you apply your dps more steadily. While a legion can pretty much always fire right away with it's full dps in a gangfight the proteus has to travel from taget to target to apply the dps. Depending on how spread out the targets are you can easily end up doing loldps most of the time 4. closerange ships can be kited to death by the most loltastic ships as long as they are a bit faster and can apply any marginal amount of dps to you. A longer range ship is harder to kito since pointrange acts as a natural border to kiting so u can't just kite a legion at 40km to avoid it's guns (unless you have some faction disruptor + gang bonusses blabla) but yeah for some magic wonderland reason the only real argument that counts is assuming the proteus is in it's optimal and does more dps so it's the better ship!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i wonder who is making up artificial scenarios here
Amanda Eidolo Core Industrialist Resurrected G String University	Posted - 2010.03.24 06:38:00 - [75] There's nothing wrong with the Legion - apart from the ****ty Covert Ops subsystem. Adapt, improvise, survive. Fit to your strengths and play to them.
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 06:50:00 - [76] your something else.. got all kinds of stuff happening in this Proteus vrs legion fight even new ships flying in and **.. your full of scenarios and I'm telling you none of that matters a Legion pilot flying a legion you have to assume will try to be in there optimal a proteus pilot flying proteus you will have to assume they will also try to be in there optimal. the comparison can not be made based on that. the comparison here is what each ship can do in its optimal rng. if you can't fit something to show legion is up to par in dps an tank in EFT then you can not win this. as it stands you sound like a broken record and i am having to tell you once again you can not make a comparison on ships based on "what if's" and eft does exact calculation.. I think and though i could be wrong proteus, Tengu , loki , can all do at least a 1000 dps in there optimal and i be leave that the later two, have more or as much rng as legion does. and this is about legion not being up to par not about "what if this ships in that rng or i use this module or i have a corp mate warp in on the proteus" yada yada yada so if legion is so grand show a fit that makes it grand that proves it can do dps and have a tank as good as the other t3's <-- doesn't exist if you have yet to grasp the concept of comparison by the numbers and not the pilots ability then you can go back to rambling about rng , and what if that ship is in his optimal or my 12 corp mates warp in to save my legion before the Proteus utterly owns the **ing thing .. or what ever other imaginative scenario you come up with.. I repeat you can not make a comparison based on things that are not 100% certain. you have to make the comparison using stats in EFT , and what each ship is capable of doing (DPS Tank etc) the optimal rng is an anomaly and completely controlled by the pilots thus is not a factor in the ships raw stats. and for the last time proteus can in its optimal do 1000 dps and have a 150k + buffer tank legion can do 660 dps in its optimal with a small buffer tank or midi-core active tank you can prefer longer rng to close rng weapons there is not fault in that but a side by side comparison shows plainly that the Proteus in its optimal rng out dmgs the legion in it's optimal by alot while maintaining a respectable buffer tank. this is not about the Proteus vrs the Legion in battle. because you can not make a comparison based on the fight because you then have the pilots ability to consider and if one pilot is considerably more experienced then the other or makes faster smart decisions then that pilot maybe able to overcome a stronger ship in a weaker one.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.24 07:05:00 - [77] Edited by: Tippia on 24/03/2010 07:14:48 Originally by: CalinaNightCyn instead they presume "well if the legion is at its optimal" it can win because of this reason or that reason.. Right. Because that's not what you're doing when your claiming that the Proteus can deliver 1k DPS? Quote: but to imply that one ship has to be at is optimal means to imply that the other is not for it to win , so scrap the Bull***.. Yes, why don't you. You're doing the exact same thing. You're implying that the Proteus will* be at its optimal. It won't be, most of the time. Quote: assume both ships are at there optimal and then which ship has more power and tank and the legion loses vrs all other t3 ships. The problem is that this is a pointless assumption. It proves nothing. To make any sense of it, you need to have it pitted against an opponent and see what happens. Yes, at its optimal, the Proteus is a beast, as it should be. However, at its optimal, the Legion will completely annihilate that poor proteus, as it should. What does this tell you? Quote: Legion further more is not just under powered to t3 ships but also t2 and some t1 cruisers. …and you have previously proven that so is the Proteus. So now what? Or even better: so what? Quote: these are the arguments <--- all else is really mute points No. The points are not silent. At best, they're moot, which is the word you need to learn how to spell. Quote: the comparison can not be made based on that. the comparison here is what each ship can do in its optimal rng. if you can't fit something to show legion is up to par in dps an tank in EFT then you can not win this. as it stands you sound like a broken record and i am having to tell you once again you can not make a comparison on ships based on "what if's" and eft does exact calculation.. …and that is exactly why EFT cannot be used to determine ship balance: because it ignores the realities of the game and fails to provide the information you need in order to say what you want to say. Your argument is basically this: at its optimal, the Proteus will win, therefore it will always win, no matter how much better the Legion is at its optimal. You're applying a double standard in order to make the Legion look worse. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Amanda Eidolo Core Industrialist Resurrected G String University	Posted - 2010.03.24 07:06:00 - [78] A lesser monk once approached me at my dais and asked "why is blue the colour of blue?" To which I replied "Sometimes a square peg can fit in a round hole."
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 07:32:00 - [79] Quote: Right. Because that's not what you're doing when your claiming that the Proteus can deliver 1k DPS? in its optimal proteus can deliver 1k dps Quote: Yes, why don't you. You're doing the exact same thing. You're implying that the Proteus will be at its optimal. It won't be, most of the time. No I am implying that each ship can do there full DPS in there optimal rng , legion and Proteus. Quote: Quote:assume both ships are at there optimal and then which ship has more power and tank and the legion loses vrs all other t3 ships. No, that would be the Proteus because of its abysmal range and its poor ability to get into an optimal position. The other T3s might do (slightly) less damage, but they can do it at a range the Proteus can't even dream of and they're fast and agile enough (unlike the Proteus) to maintain that position. In fact, I'd even go so far as to claim that the Proteus needs that much of a tank to even remotely have a chance to make use of its weaponry û any less and it won't ever survive the time it takes to get into position. the proteus does 900+ m/s with mwd the legion does 1200 m/s with mwd, the proteus has a subystem that gives 10% bonus to warp disruptor and warp scrambler range per level. and webs as well. one of these shuts down the others MWD. for legion to even be able to kill the proteus it would have to come in point rng or else the proteus could leave anytime it liked. and when it did it would lose its MWD and be webed other then that a lot of people fit legion with armor plates to and the whole Proteus is less agile then the legion is all BS there both same class ship the same size and are both armor tanked ships. one is no more agile then the other. and alot of pilot do fit legion with 1600mm plates just as a lot of Proteus pilots don't fit it with 1600mm plates. so that's purely circumstantial. further more this is all based on a concept that legion is in its optimal from the start of the fight and then has to move into position, which means your basing legions rng effectiveness on that Legion is always in its optimal. and saying i am being bias and saying that Proteus is always in its optimal. if the proteus got the jump on a legion hit it with webs and scrambler the legion isn't ever gonna see it's optimal.. but this is just like i just explained you can not base the ship comparison on pilot tactics and its not a fault of the proteus or the legion if there pilots can't get into optimal. the raw base stats of the ships and what both of those ships can do DPS and tank in there optimal rng DPS wise is the only comparison and in that case Legion loses to all other t3 ships .. Quote: àand you have previously proven that so is the Proteus. So now what? Or even better: so what? The point of the original post was simply and easily read.. I am very disappointed my nations t3 is trash , 1.3 Billion isk ship that can do the same thing a 50M isk drake can do , that took me a month of leveling 6 skills to use. and is so far only been proven to also be a good utility ship for hacking salvaging and tractor beams. shrugs No. The points are not silent. At best, they're moot, which is the word you need to learn how to spell. this is another "Mute" point that you clearly needed to grasp onto. but i see at least you got the meaning the point is clearly not important not unlike your others. Cheers
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.24 07:48:00 - [80] Edited by: chrisss0r on 24/03/2010 07:53:20 Edited by: chrisss0r on 24/03/2010 07:52:49 so a 5 torp 3 autos 5 ogres buffer tanked typhoon is the best ship in the game. But your proteus getting killed by a vexor is "not fair" because by definition the proteus is always in it's optimal :) again: how is it possible that the deimos is not by far the bestestest hac but rather the worst despite having the highest dps number? How come the sleipnir eats the astarte alive? How come the standard legion can win against most t2 ships while the proteus gets eaten by most of them and only a 1on1 where u are only allowed to compare a single number in eft is a viable argument. or to use your argument: at their respective optimals the deimos has by far the highest dps of all hacs. so the deimos is by far the best hac!
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 07:59:00 - [81] Edited by: CalinaNightCyn on 24/03/2010 08:03:40 Originally by: chrisss0r so a 5 torp 3 autos 5 ogres buffer tanked typhoon is the best ship in the game. But your proteus getting killed by a vexor is "not fair" because by definition the proteus is always in it's optimal :) God damn your stupidity truly astounds me If I did a side by side comparison of those two ships in eft then I would do it with the calculated stats with no care about rng.. and then which ever ship I seen had the better stats i would fly and apply what ever tactics i needed to PvP effectively in it depending largely on the ships optimal rng. <-- but wouldn't even consider rng as a factor until after i chose the ship that was most devastating. Quote: again: how is it possible that the deimos is not by far the bestestest hac but rather the worst despite having the highest dps number? How come the sleipnir eats the astarte alive? How come the standard legion can win against most t2 ships while the proteus gets eaten by most of them and only a 1on1 where u are only allowed to compare a single number in eft is a viable argument they must all have very poor pilots in all those situations and placed there ship in a position that did not play to there strengths. and a legion solo most all t2 lol a Legion can solo a t2 frigate sure but nothing BC sized and up and definitely not a t2 cruiser unless that cruiser had a poor pilot aswell ; ; or was afk I'm editing this I don't really agree with my last statement. Legion may be able to solo a couple different t2 cruisers but most of the Amarr t2 cruisers it wouldn't even have a chance against including ships like Pilgrim etc could easily solo a Legion and I have seen a pilot who has done exactly that.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.24 08:02:00 - [82] Originally by: CalinaNightCyn Quote: Right. Because that's not what you're doing when your claiming that the Proteus can deliver 1k DPS? in its optimal proteus can deliver 1k dps In other words, "if we presume that the Proteus is within its optimal, it can win for this reason or that reason". IOW: you're presenting the exact same kind of argument as you're decrying. Quote: the proteus does 900+ m/s with mwd the legion does 1200 m/s with mwd, the proteus has a subystem that gives 10% bonus to warp disruptor and warp scrambler range per level. and webs as well. one of these shuts down the others MWD. for legion to even be able to kill the proteus it would have to come in point rng or else the proteus could leave anytime it liked. and when it did it would lose its MWD and be webed No. First of all, the speeds are all wrong. For the other, no, the Legion will not lose its MWD when getting into point range because that extends to well beyond what even the Proteus can manage with a scram. At point range, the Legion delivers some 566 DPS, compared to 186 for the Proteus. If we move into scram range, then yes, the Proteus can close… for a bit, until it gets into the Legion's scram range and loses its MWD, at which point the Legion once again has the edge in speed (and still in DPS). Quote: other then that a lot of people fit legion with armor plates to and the whole Proteus is less agile then the legion That's their problem. If you want to compare the two, use comparable fits. Legion is faster. Quote: further more this is all based on a concept that legion is in its optimal from the start of the fight and then has to move into position, which means your basing legions rng effectiveness on that Legion is always in its optimal. and saying i am being bias and saying that Proteus is always in its optimal. By continuously quoting that 1k DPS number, yes. You are saying that. Quote: if the proteus got the jump on a legion So that's one of those "what if" scenarios we were to avoid, right? Counter-argument: what if the Legion got the jump on the Proteus? Quote: the raw base stats of the ships and what both of those ships can do DPS and tank in there optimal rng DPS wise is the only comparison and in that case Legion loses to all other t3 ships Again, that's a pointless comparison because of the different scenarios. Yes, the legion does 75% the damage of the Proteus, but it does it at 4+ the range. The logic you're applying works just as well the other way around: the Proteus is horribly underpowered because it only has + the range and receives a paltry 33% edge in damage in exchange. Quote: The point of the original post was simply and easily read.. I am very disappointed my nations t3 is trash , 1.3 Billion isk ship that can do the same thing a 50M isk drake can do You're severely overestimating what the Drake can do… Oh, and don't think the Proteus is any different. It can be outperformed by its racial battlecruisers as well. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.24 08:05:00 - [83] Originally by: CalinaNightCyn Originally by: chrisss0r so a 5 torp 3 autos 5 ogres buffer tanked typhoon is the best ship in the game. But your proteus getting killed by a vexor is "not fair" because by definition the proteus is always in it's optimal :) God damn your stupidity truly astounds me If I did a side by side comparison of those two ships in eft then I would do it with the calculated stats with no care about rng.. and then which ever ship I seen had the better stats i would fly and apply what ever tactics i needed to PvP effectively in it depending largely on the ships optimal rng. <-- but wouldn't even consider rng as a factor until after i chose the ship that was most devastating. yes and by that tacti you will end up flying the deimos or proteus and die a **ing lot because you are a noob-mo.ron Quote:** again: how is it possible that the deimos is not by far the bestestest hac but rather the worst despite having the highest dps number? How come the sleipnir eats the astarte alive? How come the standard legion can win against most t2 ships while the proteus gets eaten by most of them and only a 1on1 where u are only allowed to compare a single number in eft is a viable argument they must all have very poor pilots in all those situations and placed there ship in a position that did not play to there strengths. and a legion solo most all t2 lol a Legion can solo a t2 frigate sure but nothing BC sized and up and definitely not a t2 cruiser unless that cruiser had a poor pilot aswell ; ; or was afk ^^ so the only reason a sleipnir wipes the floor with an astarte is that all(AAAAALLLL) astarte pilots are really bad? while you are extremely kickass and always in your optimal i guess? F.UCKING STOP THEORYCRAFTING AND PLAY THE ACTUAL GAME. PLS tell me your mains name once you have your proteus pwnmobile so i can come over in a vexor and lolkill you.
Keziah Mason	Posted - 2010.03.24 08:08:00 - [84] Quote: the proteus does 900+ m/s with mwd the legion does 1200 m/s with mwd, the proteus has a subystem that gives 10% bonus to warp disruptor and warp scrambler range per level. and webs as well. one of these shuts down the others MWD. for legion to even be able to kill the proteus it would have to come in point rng wtb a proteus that has a webber bonus and stop warping to 0 in the legion Quote: The point of the original post was simply and easily read.. I am very disappointed my nations t3 is trash , 1.3 Billion isk ship that can do the same thing a 50M isk drake can do , that took me a month of leveling 6 skills to use. and is so far only been proven to also be a good utility ship for hacking salvaging and tractor beams. shrugs at least you can solo C3 WHs, the poor proteus isn't even good at that
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 08:23:00 - [85] ok this time you made no valid point period. I am not asuming the ships fight at all thats you guys fantasy Mind fight.. compare both fiting in EFT and proteus wins with a much better tank and higher dps over legion **** the rng , If I fly a legion I will be in rng , if i fly a proteus i will be in rng. or I wont be fighting. you never let your target dictate a fight on there terms if so your gonna lose.. if you dictate a fight then you control where the battle starts and at what rng you engage. I have lost only a few ships and one pod since i started playing under 10 and I am almost always able to dictate a fight entirely. in fact the fights i lost where fights I made a mistake and let myself get jumped and thus losing the ability to dictate. which i could had avoided entirely had i been paying attention. that being said I am a solo player. Proteus may not be the best choice in certain fleet engagements but if a pilot is flying a ship they can not get into an optimal rng effectively with in a certain circumstance then they probably shouldn't be flying it to begin with.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.24 08:28:00 - [86] since you don't fit the cloaky warpi module to your t3 ships i wonder how the **** you think you pick your fights and range to begin with. The only scenario where this is possible is station games. If you are an eft warrioring station hugger the proteus is the optimal ship for you but i strongly recommend you start to play the real game since the only people who die in station games are brainless ants from earths core wearing funny hats :P
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 08:35:00 - [87] null Quote: F.UCKING STOP THEORYCRAFTING AND PLAY THE ACTUAL GAME. PLS tell me your mains name once you have your proteus pwnmobile so i can come over in a vexor and lolkill you. lol you will find I do not share a since of an upfront fair fight. I play solo but i am never alone and I would never as i just said let you dictate a fight. if i decided to kill you you wouldn't even know i was there until I warped to 0 on whatever your flying. and I wouldn't warp to 0 unless I knew i would win.. I don't play with chance I take PvP seriously and and I may not have 1000000 gate camp null sec kills but almost all of my kills are oblivious pilots who never had a clue until they were locked and losing there ships. but you think to threaten me just remember you done such.. cheers
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.24 08:36:00 - [88] Originally by: CalinaNightCyn compare both fiting in EFT and proteus wins with a much better tank and higher dps over legion Wins what? A "who's got the higher numbers"-competition? How is that in any way relevant to… anything? Quote: you never let your target dictate a fight on there terms if so your gonna lose.. So you agree, then, that the Legion will easily beat the Proteus? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.03.24 08:38:00 - [89] so your solo comparison is based on having a cloaked alt as scan/warpin? LOL i wish i could be as badass as you are :(
CalinaNightCyn	Posted - 2010.03.24 08:46:00 - [90] Originally by: chrisss0r since you don't fit the cloaky warpi module to your t3 ships i wonder how the **** you think you pick your fights and range to begin with. The only scenario where this is possible is station games. If you are an eft warrioring station hugger the proteus is the optimal ship for you but i strongly recommend you start to play the real game since the only people who die in station games are brainless ants from earths core wearing funny hats :P lol these are questions i wouldn't had mind answering before you threaten to kill me.. I will say this I do not fight in high sec at station or gate camp for kills.. <--- all these things I consider bottom of the barrel PvP tactics that require no real skill. I like to go out and hunt find a target using my Ships scanners D-scan and Probes.

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