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Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.03 17:04:00 - [781] Originally by: Guttripper 8< snip >8 Sometimes I wonder why I still post here at all, it's like calling in the desert .. Look, when you look at the learning skills as an outsider it's a very silly mechanic. No-one in his right mind would invent them if there weren't there, and especially not the tier 2 ones that take 50-60 days of training. It's just not done in a mmo game, 2-3 months of pay to not play. The reimbursement mechanic is very nice and will benfit everyone, still people won't let go. I'm really a very reasonable person so I have to conclude that the pro-learnings either aren't reasonable or are a bit perculiar. I'm also really dispapointed that this forum doesn't have any options to make polls so we could see what people really think. Ciao
Star P'ergish Minmatar DELUXE INVEST	Posted - 2010.10.03 19:26:00 - [782] Originally by: Jennifer Starling [ Ciao This is the most refreshing and smart word you've used in your entire posting career , hope you're gone and stay gone.
Xorv	Posted - 2010.10.03 20:13:00 - [783] Originally by: Jennifer Starling Sometimes I wonder why I still post here at all, it's like calling in the desert .. Look, when you look at the learning skills as an outsider it's a very silly mechanic. No-one in his right mind would invent them if there weren't there, and especially not the tier 2 ones that take 50-60 days of training. It's just not done in a mmo game, 2-3 months of pay to not play. The reimbursement mechanic is very nice and will benfit everyone, still people won't let go. I'm really a very reasonable person so I have to conclude that the pro-learnings either aren't reasonable or are a bit perculiar. I'm also really dispapointed that this forum doesn't have any options to make polls so we could see what people really think. Ciao Jennifer, you can't argue with stupid. Your not going to get a rational discussion on the subject, one because this is the internet and an online gaming forum which is just a magnet to dumb, and secondly because those that want to keep the learning skills can't justify keeping them in a rational discussion. So, make your point and move on, or if you like throw *** back at the ****ed chimps that frequent threads like this, but don't expect a real discussion. Take heart that CCP themselves think Learning Skills are a terrible game mechanic and will likely eventually get around to removing them.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.10.03 21:29:00 - [784] Originally by: Guttripper So on that note, instead of just removing the Learning skills, why not just start each player with all rank five and lower skills maxed out? This will allow new players to utterly by-pass those worthless cruiser and frigate ships while having a good head start towards battleships. Then at least new player can be competitive with veterans and everyone can fly battleships and better from the start. Then as each year passes, upon a pilot's anniversary, that player will get a "cost of gaming" boost if they fall behind upon the average. Meanwhile, those that pull too far ahead will be "taxed" back towards the average. It would be quite unfair to those new players that older players have better implants than they could afford starting off. Meanwhile, CCP will have worked out a system that completely removes the total number of skill points a pilot possesses and leave a system that a pilot either knows a particular skill or does not. This will alter how the clones are set-up, but at least those thick-skull individuals like Jennifer will finally stop sputtering that higher skill point totals equals greater power instead of just more options. By then, her new rallying cry will be it is unfair how some people can train more skills per year than others and all the skills should be regulated to the same rank as a balance. Good times ahead for this game when everyone is flying the same big ships and on equal terms. Unless a pilot does not have the best Internet connection so CCP will have to introduce subtle line noise across all connections and decrease or increase as necessary to keep it all balanced. Carry on Jen - your "I win" button might just be in sight! Guttripper you do make me laugh, you do tend to take your arguments to extreme (makes me wonder if all you are really doing is trolling). All the pro remove learning skill posts (sensible posts not trolls)I've read over the months are only talking about removing the learning skills and replacing them with the relevant attribute points nothing else.
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.10.04 01:05:00 - [785] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Guttripper So on that note, instead of just removing the Learning skills, why not just start each player with all rank five and lower skills maxed out? This will allow new players to utterly by-pass those worthless cruiser and frigate ships while having a good head start towards battleships. Then at least new player can be competitive with veterans and everyone can fly battleships and better from the start. Then as each year passes, upon a pilot's anniversary, that player will get a "cost of gaming" boost if they fall behind upon the average. Meanwhile, those that pull too far ahead will be "taxed" back towards the average. It would be quite unfair to those new players that older players have better implants than they could afford starting off. Meanwhile, CCP will have worked out a system that completely removes the total number of skill points a pilot possesses and leave a system that a pilot either knows a particular skill or does not. This will alter how the clones are set-up, but at least those thick-skull individuals like Jennifer will finally stop sputtering that higher skill point totals equals greater power instead of just more options. By then, her new rallying cry will be it is unfair how some people can train more skills per year than others and all the skills should be regulated to the same rank as a balance. Good times ahead for this game when everyone is flying the same big ships and on equal terms. Unless a pilot does not have the best Internet connection so CCP will have to introduce subtle line noise across all connections and decrease or increase as necessary to keep it all balanced. Carry on Jen - your "I win" button might just be in sight! Guttripper you do make me laugh, you do tend to take your arguments to extreme (makes me wonder if all you are really doing is trolling). All the pro remove learning skill posts (sensible posts not trolls)I've read over the months are only talking about removing the learning skills and replacing them with the relevant attribute points nothing else. Yeah...silly him for having an opinion different than yours. "Make the game faster and easier" is the only popular opinion these days. God forbid a person be in favor of "Leave the game as-is or no bonuses for anybody". I agree with Guttripper. If the Learning skils must go, then so should the bonuses they convey. No reason to give out free attribute bonuses to everyone. Totally unfair and arbitrary really to give out those kinds of bonuses. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2010.10.04 13:36:00 - [786] Originally by: Jennifer Starling I'm just a clueless troll. Yes you are because you totally ignore the post that agrees with you (at least in the need to change the learning skills) and go right into the post right after that that involves flaming. ... that, pure and simple, is a definition of trolling. Have a nice day. .
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.10.04 16:28:00 - [787] Originally by: Pantload Yeah...silly him for having an opinion different than yours. "Make the game faster and easier" is the only popular opinion these days. God forbid a person be in favor of "Leave the game as-is or no bonuses for anybody". I agree with Guttripper. If the Learning skils must go, then so should the bonuses they convey. No reason to give out free attribute bonuses to everyone. Totally unfair and arbitrary really to give out those kinds of bonuses. Get rid of the learning skills makes the game faster? Only by a couple of months and as the skill tree is something like 25 years I don't think many will care too much about that, certainly if they have any sense. Getting rid of learning skills makes the game easier? No, not at all, if anything makes it less boring.
Sieges Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.04 19:59:00 - [788] Originally by: drake duka Originally by: stoicfaux Edited by: stoicfaux on 26/03/2010 15:38:28 If the concern is over new characters being "required" to train boring, non-internet spaceship skills, then just have new players start with the basic learning skills at 4 and the advanced learning skills to level 3. That would be enough of a boost to make training a non-issue while leaving plenty of excitement for the OCD > Diminishing Returns crowd. Older players could just be reminded that your "online play experience may change" and to suck it up. (But a skill training time boost would be better.) Also, since your learning skills are in the database, CCP can implement a new player friendly solution now and work on 'crediting' older players later. Personally, "having" to train learning skills makes Eve pretty alt-aholic unfriendly. That is actually a great idea, +1 /Signed +1
Soljour Icarus' Wings RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.10.06 21:33:00 - [789] Ive tried to get so many of my other friends to start playing this game and no one will because of the learning skills. No one wants to not do anything for you first month because you have to train all the learning skills. I know people are gonna say "Well you dont have to train the learning skills first". But the truth is if your smart enough to look at the big picture then you force yourself to.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.10.07 00:00:00 - [790] Originally by: Soljour Ive tried to get so many of my other friends to start playing this game and no one will because of the learning skills. No one wants to not do anything for you first month because you have to train all the learning skills. I know people are gonna say "Well you dont have to train the learning skills first". But the truth is if your smart enough to look at the big picture then you force yourself to. Yeah, kind of funny really. People go on about you have to be intelligent to play this game. And in the next breath say you don't have to learn the learning skills at the start. Whereas if they are intelligent then it does not take much to realise that there's more benefit to learn the learning skills at the start and so are compelled to try and learn them as soon as possible. Which of course leads to a rather boring start to the game and gives the impression that the game is just a grind.

Ashireka Minmatar Robot Pirate Ninja Corporation	Posted - 2010.10.07 02:26:00 - [791] Actually, the new NPE kinda made this a problem. No longer do you have a character with interesting skills to play with when you start out (which you can use to amuse yourself while training up the learning skills). Maybe they need to start handing out straight-up SP bonuses for referrals, in addition to the free month of subscription fee -- if you refer a friend, and they become a paid subscriber, both chars get some whack of SP to use for their chars. This encourages people to refer their friends (they get a bunch of SP to use to help advance themselves), their friends get a nice helping of SP to get their character going, and CCP gets another paid subscriber. This helps newbs the most (the starting skills have lower SP requirements, so a decent chunk of SPs can mean a lot to them), and while helpful to the veteran group, isn't horribly unbalanced. Okay, how can that be abused... People could sign themselves up for new paid accounts, which they close after their referring account gets their bonus... So $15 would get you a bunch of skill points. Repeat until completely levelled. Okay, somewhat problematic, but that would be REALLY expensive to pull off at great heights. I need about 400k SP to get from Missile Bombardment 4 to 5, which alone would cost me $60 if I was getting 100k SP per referral... Signal Dispersion from 4 to 5 requires 1.1mil SP, or $165... Meh, that might work without being completely broken. (although I'm sure the more devious of you would find some other exploit... :) ) -Ash Robot Pirate Ninja Corp (RPNC) Based in Alenia / Verge Vendor Casual fun for casual people High sec/low sec/we all scream for ice cream
Leekana	Posted - 2010.10.07 06:30:00 - [792] Training skills are not a problem. You don't need them to play. And in the long run it does effect skill training time. But there are a lot of skills that share mechanics like learning skills. People just don't care about having them removed because they have a practical, rewarding use. The only reason this issue is under debate is because it effects almost every skill globally. If you plan to do nothing but pvp train your perception and willpower learning skills to 5/4. You don't have to get charisma, intellect, or memory. Or say if you plan on going drones etc. Train up that one when you decide its necessary. It doesn't take that long to train up support skills for tech 2. With or without learning skills. This whole long run thing is bull****. I plan on playing for long enough to put my learning skills to use so they are trained where I want them. Why should anyone else be given the same sp/hr without the work? Just a second ago there were people flaming a communist ran mining op where frigate miners got the same amount as hulk miners. This whole subject is hypocritical to some point or another. Further more I like this game because it follows such a capitalist system. Long live EVE, long live freedom, long live choice and consequence.
Dusica Amarr	Posted - 2010.10.07 06:45:00 - [793] Originally by: Soljour Ive tried to get so many of my other friends to start playing this game and no one will because of the learning skills. No one wants to not do anything for you first month because you have to train all the learning skills. I know people are gonna say "Well you dont have to train the learning skills first". But the truth is if your smart enough to look at the big picture then you force yourself to. QFT Eternal Will.
Plato Idari	Posted - 2010.10.09 20:33:00 - [794] TL;DR The most optimal path to the learning skills should get you the skills you need to not be bored. Learning skill prerequisites should be related to the area of the game where that attribute is most useful. I just passed my first month mark in eve and since this discussion seems to largely revolve around a new players first exposure to eve I figure despite my noobiness I might be able to comment intelligently on this topic. Several friends told me about learning skills and I kind of trained them on the side in addition to other skills I wanted. I've currently got 955k sp in learning skills which is roughly 2/5 of my skill points so far. I don't think that learning skills are inherently a bad thing I think the problem is how quickly they become important. In theory learning skills allow you to train skills faster which allows you to catch up with other players in specific fields, though not overall. However, they themselves take longer to train which can make the first few days or weeks in game very boring. In practice only the veteran players have the patience and foresight to properly handle learning skills, they get the greatest benefit from them when they start new characters because they already have a character to play when they're training the first month, and they already know what they want their new character to do. Where as new players are told to train learning skills but don't know which ones they want. They train them all and get bored and leave or choose not to and fall behind. I feel like took a healthy moderated path, but it was by no means optimal. That all being said, this is my suggestion. Push learning skills out to the one or two month mark and give new players a slightly greater start-up bonus to compensate for not having early access to learning skills. This would remove the boredom/optimal path dichotomy from the beginning of the game while preserving the "I want to fly a carrier now!" vs "I want to fly a hulk" vs "I want to fly a tier 3 cruiser" vs "I want to go into PI" choice. Essentially, make learning skills PART of the process of specialization. For example: (These are not completely balanced just a rough idea) Spatial Awareness requires frigates IV Empathy requires Social IV Instant Recall requires Mining IV Analytical Mind requires Engineering IV Iron Will requires Trade IV -- Clarity requires Weapon Upgrades V Eidetic Memory requires Refining V Logic requires Electronics V Presence requires Marketing V Focus requires not really sure The most optimal path to the learning skills should get you the skills you need to not be bored. Learning skill prerequisites should be related to the area of the game where that attribute is most useful. To make up for the slightly slower initial training that new players will experience as a result, increase the x2 starting bonus to 2mil skill points.
Hanz Landou	Posted - 2010.10.09 21:52:00 - [795] Edited by: Hanz Landou on 09/10/2010 21:54:08 Originally by: Dusica Originally by: Soljour Ive tried to get so many of my other friends to start playing this game and no one will because of the learning skills. No one wants to not do anything for you first month because you have to train all the learning skills. I know people are gonna say "Well you dont have to train the learning skills first". But the truth is if your smart enough to look at the big picture then you force yourself to. QFT Agreed. I've found myself hard pressed to log in recently due to the large gap between getting started in eve (ie. the basic ability to mine, run a lvl 1 mission, trade 5 items, manufacture at a horridly inefficient rate, research something useless, etc.) and actually coming into the ability to make a playstyle out of your skill choices. Frankly, it's just apalling people consider suicide tackle/ewar, minor trader, hauler, low level mission runner, and PI to be a plethora of options for rookies. I count myself lucky that I enjoy being a small-beans trader on the side. Aside from that role, there's really nothing on that list that is both interesting and a profitable basis for character development.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.10.09 23:33:00 - [796] Originally by: Hanz Landou Agreed. I've found myself hard pressed to log in recently due to the large gap between getting started in eve (ie. the basic ability to mine, run a lvl 1 mission, trade 5 items, manufacture at a horridly inefficient rate, research something useless, etc.) and actually coming into the ability to make a playstyle out of your skill choices. I've been back about 6 weeks (new account and the only active one), the first two weeks was ingame, last 4 weeks just logging in and changing skills. Still learning the learning skills although mixing them a bit with a few other skills just so that it does not feel like it's a total waste. I know when I complete the learning skills I'm not going to get a wave of I'm the greatest wash over me, but I will get a sense of relief that that boring mini-game the learning skills will be completed never to be done again.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.10.09 23:42:00 - [797] Originally by: Plato Idari TL;DR The most optimal path to the learning skills should get you the skills you need to not be bored. Learning skill prerequisites should be related to the area of the game where that attribute is most useful. I just passed my first month mark in eve and since this discussion seems to largely revolve around a new players first exposure to eve I figure despite my noobiness I might be able to comment intelligently on this topic. Several friends told me about learning skills and I kind of trained them on the side in addition to other skills I wanted. I've currently got 955k sp in learning skills which is roughly 2/5 of my skill points so far. I don't think that learning skills are inherently a bad thing I think the problem is how quickly they become important. In theory learning skills allow you to train skills faster which allows you to catch up with other players in specific fields, though not overall. However, they themselves take longer to train which can make the first few days or weeks in game very boring. In practice only the veteran players have the patience and foresight to properly handle learning skills, they get the greatest benefit from them when they start new characters because they already have a character to play when they're training the first month, and they already know what they want their new character to do. Where as new players are told to train learning skills but don't know which ones they want. They train them all and get bored and leave or choose not to and fall behind. I feel like took a healthy moderated path, but it was by no means optimal. That all being said, this is my suggestion. Push learning skills out to the one or two month mark and give new players a slightly greater start-up bonus to compensate for not having early access to learning skills. This would remove the boredom/optimal path dichotomy from the beginning of the game while preserving the "I want to fly a carrier now!" vs "I want to fly a hulk" vs "I want to fly a tier 3 cruiser" vs "I want to go into PI" choice. Essentially, make learning skills PART of the process of specialization. For example: (These are not completely balanced just a rough idea) Spatial Awareness requires frigates IV Empathy requires Social IV Instant Recall requires Mining IV Analytical Mind requires Engineering IV Iron Will requires Trade IV -- Clarity requires Weapon Upgrades V Eidetic Memory requires Refining V Logic requires Electronics V Presence requires Marketing V Focus requires not really sure The most optimal path to the learning skills should get you the skills you need to not be bored. Learning skill prerequisites should be related to the area of the game where that attribute is most useful. To make up for the slightly slower initial training that new players will experience as a result, increase the x2 starting bonus to 2mil skill points. In the learning skills issue a compromise won't work, they either get removed or they stay. Seen good reasons to remove them but not seen any good reasons to keep them yet. Still one can live in hope.
Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2010.10.12 18:01:00 - [798] Originally by: Forum Guy Seen good reasons to remove them but not seen any good reasons to keep them yet. Still one can live in hope. First of all the problem with learning skills and implants is: - Base attribute points = 34 - Base + learning + implants = 125 Soo... training the learning skills and using implants is a no brainer over NOT. That however isn't the whole picture because you can get partial learning skills and cheaper implants giving you around 100 attribute points with not too much effort. Still, the difference is 34 against 100 ... triple the training speed. Still a no brainer. So, learning skills on their own are not a bad idea but the implementation is stupid because of above example. What the learning skills need to be is something other than a no brainer but still a benefit for those that do decide to train them, the question is WHEN they'll start benefiting. Even at current "low effort levels" All in all, it's an easy problem to solve. All it takes is the will. .
Sajumi	Posted - 2010.10.13 10:25:00 - [799] learning skills are just fine ... nooney forces you to skill them and if you do, they give you some time to get to know the basics of the game and set yourself some goals. And as probably most (if not any) experienced player will agree with, specialisation and a well thought of skillplan, let you improve way faster than the few sp you would have extra if there wasn't the need to skill learning skill.
Logical Chaos Reverse Psychology. BAT PHONE	Posted - 2010.10.13 11:56:00 - [800] There still has not been a good reason to keep them. EVE needs a steady source of new players. But seriously, try to get someone into the game when he has to spend. Lets say you do NOT want to max Learnings to 5/5. Lets say you want 5/4 except for Charisma which goes 4/3 (gonna suck, if you plan on doing some Leadership one day). You will need more than a month as a new player (depending on what Implants you can afford, I mean you already have to buy the Learning skills for a total of 25mil). And what can you do by then? Nothing really. Even if you weave in a bit of Spaceship Command and say Astrometrics etc to get started into probing and ninja-salvaging. Most new players don't do that though. They try on missions and fail horribly when they try to do level 2 missions, because they most likely only trained what they needed for some mods, and no other supportskills (since they still have to do the learnings and don't want to waste too much time). Now I don't want to say, give new players supportskills aswell. I think its fine to train those since you actually see a benefit on your capacitor etc. New players go into a lvl2 in a destroyer and find out: wow I died, because they just overwhelmed me. They will train for Cruisers and maybe the next time they find out that they cannot hit small ships and therefore train for drones. But they actually PROGRESS on that and can actually play. Every day they log in they have 24hours more of useful stuff (since training to III is actually frickin fast) and they will be able to handle what they could not yesterday. But training learnings just to not be gimped for the rest of your EVE-Life purely SUCKS and surely kills a lot of potential new subscriptions.

Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2010.10.13 14:10:00 - [801] Originally by: Logical Chaos There still has not been a good reason to keep them. Troll, the answer to your rambling is two posts above you. .
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.13 14:35:00 - [802] Originally by: Sajumi learning skills are just fine ... nooney forces you to skill them and if you do, they give you some time to get to know the basics of the game and set yourself some goals. And as probably most (if not any) experienced player will agree with, specialisation and a well thought of skillplan, let you improve way faster than the few sp you would have extra if there wasn't the need to skill learning skill. Don't make me laugh. As said before if you have a decently working brain you'll train int, per to 5/5, willpower, mem to 5/4 and the sooner you do it, the more and earlier it pays back. I remember that interview with this CCP dev who said that when he bought EVE the frst thing he did was training his learning skills to V and player Counterstrike in the meantime. For months. And efficiency wise, that's the best thing you can do when you start to play EVE. I know you don't have to be efficient buy why train at 800 SP/hour when you could also train at 2,700 SP/hour?
Logical Chaos Reverse Psychology. BAT PHONE	Posted - 2010.10.13 14:36:00 - [803] No, theres no reason to keep them. They would have to be dramatically changed but seriously that won't ever happen. The easiest answer without wasting time to develop a change (seriously theres better stuff to do) is to simply remove them and reimburse those who have trained them. Veterans get up to 5.3mil SP to spend on various things and train with their speed. Noobs train with the same speed (if they can afford the implants), but the Veteran will still be 5.3mil ahead forever.
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.10.13 15:51:00 - [804] Originally by: Logical Chaos EVE needs a steady source of new players. But seriously, try to get someone into the game when he has to spend... This is a fascinating and flawed argument. Eve has continued to grow every year and is now the biggest it has ever been and is still growing. The new players ARE coming. Plenty of them will wash out because they don't like the game but that is to be expected with any game. If software developers could find a way to make a game that absolutely everybody loves, they'd be richer than Bill Gates. That just simply isn't going to happen. As for trying to get someone new people into this game...I've done that repeatedly. Most of them have been around for years now but some are new within the last 6-8 months. I've had an incredibly high success rate recruiting friends and acquaintances into this game. In conclusion, I agree that Eve needs new players, and they are coming. Still. In droves. I don't agree that all new players freak out when they see what's involved in this game. Some do, and quite frankly who needs them? This game is not for everybody and I applaud CCP for not bending over backwards every time somebody whines about something. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
ViolenTUK Gallente Demolition Men	Posted - 2010.10.13 17:45:00 - [805] Edited by: ViolenTUK on 13/10/2010 17:46:31 No I dont think removing learning skills is a good idea. Most people must understand how may people that is going to anger. I did post a thread which suggested that if the learning skills really did present a problem then giving them to everyone would anger the least amount of people. Give away the learning skills.
Hashpipe Malone	Posted - 2010.10.13 19:14:00 - [806] I dont understand all the arguement, when Incursion goes live we will be able to purchase training skills with plex.
ugaloo	Posted - 2010.10.13 19:29:00 - [807] Originally by: Hashpipe Malone I dont understand all the arguement, when Incursion goes live we will be able to purchase training skills with plex. No we won't.
Dasubervixen	Posted - 2010.10.14 18:19:00 - [808] Edited by: Dasubervixen on 14/10/2010 18:20:16 Originally by: ugaloo Originally by: Hashpipe Malone I dont understand all the arguement, when Incursion goes live we will be able to purchase training skills with plex. No we won't. Maybe not at the start we won't be able to. But the way CCP is now headed with microtransactions and such. That may change. Anything done within the rules of the game is NOT griefing. Get over it.
Funesta	Posted - 2010.10.14 19:07:00 - [809] It seems to me that one of the bigger problems with the learning skills is that the very highest rank is of dubious use to a new player (rank 5 of eidetic memory, for example). It takes roughly two weeks to train EACH of these top-rank learning skills. They only "pay themselves back" after more than a year, I'm told. So as a newbie, I need to look at this game and decide whether I'm going to spend a year on this game and "waste" two weeks on this learning skill. Then I need to make that decision another 4 times. Maybe I sit there and say I won't necessarily play that long, so I put off training the high ranks of learning skills - then I'm truly screwed if I actually do stick around a long time. Three potential changes would make learning skills much more palatable to me as a relative newbie (I've been around a bit more than month at this point). (1) Change the modifier on the advanced learning books - 2x training time modifier instead of a 3x modifier. Maybe, dare I suggest it, even a 1x modifier. There would be a lot less whining about learning books if the advanced books were more of a clear win. It would also fit in better with the whole rest of the game, where you get an equal benefit from each skill rank (5% more gun damage! 5% faster ship! 5% more cap!) rather than the diminishing return from the existing advanced skill books. You could accomplish a similar effect by giving a +2 bonus for the final rank of the advanced books, but that seems out of keeping with the rest of the game in a different way. (2) Make the advanced books more accessible to newbies - cheaper! I know 4.5M isk per book is pocket change to most players, but it's brutal on a newbie who is also trying to dutifully focus on learning skills instead of a career in shooting, mining, or whatever. Since they're a giant time sink, it seems odd that they're also a giant money sink, and it makes an unpleasant experience doubly so. High level implants are already a skill bonus granted to the players that are better at obtaining money (and should remain so). (3) Mention learning skills in the tutorial. Give out a free book of "learning" somewhere in there, or make it a base skill you start out with on all characters at level 0. It needs to be something that pops up on a new player's radar much faster. You don't have to give out free skill ranks, but you should mention it SOMEWHERE. Right now it's something you blunder into on accident, or you hope some older player enlightens you about. Maybe give out one advanced skill book as a reward for the very end of each tutorial? Maybe give them out in the course of the Sisters of Eve epic line? At any rate, you don't have to eliminate learning. I can see the value of separating the invested players from the players who don't bother with learning skills at all. However, that doesn't mean learning couldn't do with a bit of a clean up.
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.14 19:36:00 - [810] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 14/10/2010 19:40:35 Originally by: Funesta It seems to me that one of the bigger problems with the learning skills is that the very highest rank is of dubious use to a new player (rank 5 of eidetic memory, for example). They only "pay themselves back" after more than a year, I'm told. Yes, if you train them to 5/5 that is. Here is an overview how long it takes to pay back. Originally by: Funesta So as a newbie, I need to look at this game and decide whether I'm going to spend a year on this game and "waste" two weeks on this learning skill. In EVE things don't go fast, I'm not sure if it's really worth playing if you don't play for over a year. I think things only get really interesting and you'll be only able to fly a wide range of ships in 1.5-2 years. But yes, it's tough if you don't know what you're actually investing in. You have to trust on what other players and game reviewers tell you. Originally by: Funesta (3) Mention learning skills in the tutorial. Fully agreed upon, it's the least they can do.



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