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[SF] Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate Peace Talks - KBP Summit

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Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 04:49:00 - [1] As of 03:00 hours this evening the council of free captains concluded a formal vote ratifying the peace terms provisionally agreed by the Daisho Syndicate and Fraction leadership 48 hours before. I can now report that by a margin of 41/35 (3 abstentions) the terms were adopted and peace with the Daisho Syndicate restored. I've been in contact with Daisho Diplomatic staff in the last few hours and received their permission to share the text of the agreement with the IGS (since this matter and key test of negotiations in the "new providence" environment has received quite a lot of comment and wider interest from the community at large). So here it is. Quote: Formal agreement of mutual space usage and transit between The Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate û the alliances agree that neither party will attempt to restrict the movement rights of the other in any system in Eve space. Star Fraction and Daisho pilots will travel wherever they choose in Providence and the former KBP pocket û including the systems KBP, B-WPLZ, E-YCML, T-UO0T, and Y9-MDG. The B-WPLZ system will be shared and open for resource development with SF and Daisho pilots free to dock, trade, rat, mine, and whatever else they want to do in the system. Anchoring towers is permissable with consultation (basically avoid high value moons for mining purposes). E-Y, T-U, Y-9 systems will be open for transit and navigation but SF pilots are respectfully asked to refrain from bounty-hunting SanshaÆs in the area since these are an important income source for the Daisho Syndicate community and there is after all, plenty of alternative ratting income in B-W, KBP, YWSO etc. Completing Escalations originating elsewhere in space is accepted. ItÆs important to note that Star Fraction pilots do not travel in nullsec freespace to annoy or irritate our neighbours or to share intel on blues or neutrals. We will cooperate in the destruction of reds and are happy to help our friends destroy mutual reds. Neither Daisho Syndicate nor Star Fraction officers or members will attempt to ôorderö or otherwise ôdemandö action from captains of the other organization and will respect free transit rights at all times. Daisho Syndicate will formally apologize for the destruction of ClairXXXÆs Myrmidon class Battlecruiser in B-W system and reimburse the full value of the loss. This agreement represents a binding settlement between Daisho Syndicate and the Star Fraction but will need ratification by a majority vote of the free captains of the Fraction before it can enter formal agreement. Until ratification occurs and is communicated to Daisho Syndicate management it is understood and expected that conflict continues and no additional losses will be addressed in reimbursement or penalty claims hereafter. * So that concludes the issue to this point. The Star Fraction is content that diplomacy and respectful persuasion has made progress here alongside action in space and clash of fleets. And the first significant difference in opinion in system usage in the "new providence" has been resolved by direct negotiation between involved parties without external interference. Quite a huge difference to the enforced dominions and enclosed-standings bullying of the CVA-era and slaver-pet-holders. Questions and comments are welcome.** True Knowledge
Black Necris Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.04.17 05:38:00 - [2] His highness, The Magnanimous and Serene Lordship Black Necris congratulate the Free Captains and Daisho Syndicate for reaching an agreement. May they have the best spirits and exotic dancers always flowing in their direction. His Most Reverend Eminence Black Necris Archbishop of the New and Improved Church of Providence "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Major Templar Caldari KINGS OF EDEN Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.04.17 07:49:00 - [3] Now, I must ask Jade, what is your official stance on their admission to slavery? Also, from what I understood, it has always been your view of closing off space to neutrals as a wrong move and therefore that alliance is wrong. Sorry if it's worded weird but I'm not able to concentrate tonight, too many boosters and my brain is fried. My understanding has always been that if an alliance restricts pilots from free movement that they are in fact what you despise and seek to rid New Eden of, is this true? If so, how does this agreement of, "Star Fraction can do it but no one else can" seem right? If not, then what is your official stance as of now? Because seeking to make an empire, closing space to all others "not in their blue list" and also slavery seems to be exactly what Daisho have done. Thanks, Major Major Templar Head of Armed Forces Kings Of Eden Sev3rance
Stratio Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.04.17 09:39:00 - [4] Edited by: Stratio on 17/04/2010 09:40:28 Congratulations on sorting out this mess and showing how free alliances can live side by side in Providence. Originally by: Major Templar Now, I must ask Jade, what is your official stance on their admission to slavery? Have you read this statement by Daisho Syndicate? Official Apology _____________________ Poreuomai's Spokesman For Tribe and Honour!
Lucai Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 11:27:00 - [5] Im not Jade, but we are all free captains, so Ill just give you my view to ponder over. First off, people have to accept that our concept of Freespace is not and never has been a policed space with strict rules and laws, but "Freespace with Teeth". Everybody is responsible for his own actions and can make his own arrangements with other entities. The concept of some entity to hold hands with people like little children does not fit into our ideology. The key word is self-empowerment. Now, we made a free-transit agreement with Daisho, proving that its possible. What is to stop anyone else to do the same? I do of course like NRDS entities that allow free transit without any need of a treaty* a lot more than organisations that are NBSI at core. But Star Fraction's force is not limitless (surprise!), and we have to focus at times. The focus is currently not on Daisho as they seem to have at least made the first step on the right path. We will see how things develop from there. * and dont get me started on the old Provi-Block. E.g. -7- had attacked us first, without provocation. How NRDS of them.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 11:30:00 - [6] Originally by: Major Templar Now, I must ask Jade, what is your official stance on their admission to slavery? Also, from what I understood, it has always been your view of closing off space to neutrals as a wrong move and therefore that alliance is wrong. Sorry if it's worded weird but I'm not able to concentrate tonight, too many boosters and my brain is fried. My understanding has always been that if an alliance restricts pilots from free movement that they are in fact what you despise and seek to rid New Eden of, is this true? If so, how does this agreement of, "Star Fraction can do it but no one else can" seem right? If not, then what is your official stance as of now? Because seeking to make an empire, closing space to all others "not in their blue list" and also slavery seems to be exactly what Daisho have done. Thanks, Major The comments made in local comms were just used to aggravate our pilots, I do not believe Daisho pilots actually hold Slaves. As you can see by the results of our vote on this issue it was a close call, many pilots would have been happy to wage a campaign to the death and remove an NBSI entity from the region. However, ultimaty a majority felt that the changes in space and diplomatically warranted further pursuit down diplomatic and ideological terms. We do of course promote the use of NRDS RoE and we hope our friends and neighbors will see the example we set is good for everyone in the region and perhaps follow suit. It is not our place however, to tell people who they can and cannot shoot. NBSI, is far from an ideal RoE, but it is not strictly regressive enclosureism. *ChipMo raises a glass > To the future, comrades!
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.17 11:55:00 - [7] Edited by: Archbishop on 17/04/2010 12:00:24 Originally by: ChipMo The comments made in local comms were just used to aggravate our pilots, I do not believe Daisho pilots actually hold Slaves. As you can see by the results of our vote on this issue it was a close call, many pilots would have been happy to wage a campaign to the death and remove an NBSI entity from the region. However, ultimaty a majority felt that the changes in space and diplomatically warranted further pursuit down diplomatic and ideological terms. We do of course promote the use of NRDS RoE and we hope our friends and neighbors will see the example we set is good for everyone in the region and perhaps follow suit. It is not our place however, to tell people who they can and cannot shoot. NBSI, is far! So in other words your peace agreement... 1. Fails to provide free transit rights for anyone but yourselves. 2. Doesn't investigate the admission of slavery. 3. Allows a NBSI entity to continue to control space and shoot everyone else. Given past Star Fraction wars which they have claimed justified by claiming others oppose free transit, advocate slavery and are NBSI I find this highly unusual. While I appreciate the "vote was close" as ChipMo says I find it odd that any free captain worth his salt would allow a bunch of enclosurist, slave owning, NBSI territorial claiming alliance types "peace" when in reality none of that has changed. Perhaps this is something else. Just as we have seen in the past the Star Fraction operate with pirates and terrorists perhaps now they're seeing no problem in shacking up with alliances that are NBSI and claim enclosurist space policies. The fact remains DS is still holding space and will fire on anyone else in that space thus nothing has changed. The fact the Star Fraction has made a backroom deal with them obviously shows their "cause" of freespace is hardly entrenched and is more "flexible" like their RoS appears to be at times. Much like their pirate "friends" they seem happy to overlook things they oppose when it's convenient for them. Pirates who mysteriously sit at gates with them and shoot everyone who wanders by but not them. The fact the Star Fraction has made a backroom deal with them obviously shows their "cause" of freespace is hardly entrenched and is more "flexible" like their RoS appears to be at times. Doing this would be like me "making peace" with a Minmatar terrorist to allow me access to Minmatar space to capture slaves as long as I allow the terrorist access to Amarrian space to kill Amarrians as long as he doesn't kill me. It would be completely hypocritical for both of us. Using that same standard I think some people would view the Star Fraction as not committed to freespace only to their own benefit. This is a shocking revelation to be sure. Perhaps ChipMo could address these observations as I'm sure many others have made the same observations and indeed are wondering "why would they make peace with an alliance that does everything they oppose?". Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.04.17 12:13:00 - [8] Poasting to say only one thing: Hey look its the slaver who thinks SBU's are non-agressive structures! (Apologies for derail Jade, I'm just not over the idiocy of it all yet).
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 12:34:00 - [9] Edited by: ChipMo on 17/04/2010 12:34:00 Originally by: Archbishop So in other words No. Leave my words alone, they say what they say & that is all. Originally by: Archbishop This is a shocking revelation to be sure. Perhaps ChipMo could address these observations as I'm sure many others have made the same observations and indeed are wondering "why would they make peace with an alliance that does everything they oppose?". Archbishop Quite simple, they have shown willing to change and taken some tentative steps in the direction of Free Space. This was enough to satisfy our membership, we shall now focus on the continuing liberation of Providence.
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.17 12:49:00 - [10] It is not that difficult: - Daisho Syndicate allows their friends to access their space - Daisho Syndicate disallows neutrals to access their space, they shoot anyone not known to them - Daisho Syndicate disallows hostiles to access their space, they shoot them - CVA allowed their friends to access their space - CVA allowed neutrals to access to their space, anyone not known to them was left alone - CVA disallowed hostiles access to their space, they shot them Which of the two policies is more in line with the Star Fraction concept of Freespace? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 12:59:00 - [11] @Major Templar 1. With regard to the issue of Daisho Syndicate pilotÆs ôadmission to slaveryö we consulted with our allies in the UshraÆkhan and two of their leaders conducted personal investigations in the KBP pocket to assure us all that these were simply throwaway comments in local chat rather than reflecting any genuine regression to CVA-era slave-holding aspirations in Providence. In our estimation now this was simply a case of ôboastingö in local chat to provoke a fight more than anything else. 2. Yes, it has always been our view that space is free and that closing off space to neutral transit is a regressive policy. We have always encouraged pilots to stand up and fight for themselves and take their freedom, not kneel and beg for it as a hand out from a ôstronger powerö. What this period of war/diplomacy has demonstrated is precisely what weÆve always said: the best guarantee to freespace is to maintain a strong personal capability and be prepared to fight those who would restrict your movements. The Star Fraction has never promised to give freedom to the weak. It is our role and our passion to show the way for the strong to stand up and ensure their freedoms against oppression through persuasion, discussion, negotiation and yes, by main force of arms if necessary. Here we have shown that the Free Captains are prepared to fight to ensure our rights of free transit in the open stars. We have shown that if one fights, if one is prepared to make a territorial power bleed in counter action and guerrilla presence, if one shows resolution and cunning, commitment and courage in equal measure then the territorialist will come back to the table and reach afford in preference to having you as an enemy. I commend this example to ANYONE and ANY organization in New Eden that wishes to travel freely on the frontier in New Eden. Talk, negotiate, assert your freedoms, and if anyone wishes to deny those freedoms then stand up and fight for them. 3. Now on the specific issue of why we do not feel responsible to ôguaranteeö the safety and freedoms of other travellers it should become apparent that we want people to stand up on their own two feet rather than be content to shelter in another powerÆs shadow. We want neutrals to face the same challenges and choices we have faced. We want them to conduct diplomacy, to present credible threat, we want them to demonstrate to the xenophobe that respectful free space is better than roadblocks and repression. (And this demonstration generally needs black ops, bombers, economic suppression and credible threat). But letÆs look at this from the other angle. Say a neutral pilot is ganked on KBP gate by an NBSI power in Providence: ôWhy did you let that happen? (says the neutral to the Fraction) ôLet what happen?ö (Say we) ôLet me get killed by those xenophobes! You were at the gate and did nothing to protect meö ôGo and get yourself a long rifle and a dark coat, come back in the wee hours and weÆll do nothing to stop you taking your justified revenge either.ö True freedom comes with consequence both for the neutral who is ganked and the territorial power that committed aggression and invited revenge. I positively encourage any neutral pilot who is unjustifiably ganked on the Dital gate in KBP to invest in a Stealth Bomber and spend a part of your schedule stalking the economic functions and bounty hunting of your enemies for as long as it takes them to come to ôpeace termsö and realize that perhaps NRDS respect for neutral transit might be a better policy for their own peace of mind. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:00:00 - [12] You understand Major Templar. I donÆt want a Providence Region filled with defenceless sheep ratting away in belts with a big bad dominant power ôguaranteeingö their safety at the cost of their political independence on forced uniform standings (aka CVA-era). I want a Providence Region filled with armed neutrals with long rifles and the will to take revenge on anyone or anything that restricts their free movement in the open stars. I will sell those guys their rifles in Choonka, Kamela, Dihra, IÆll watch them go past the gates in KBP with a salute to a comrade of the future. The Star Fraction agenda is utterly subversive to all notions of monolithic territorial control. We undermine standings enclosure by our very presence. Our example puts empowered personal responsibility on the centre stage and I encourage any neutral pilot reading this thread with a lust for adventure and the open frontier to come to Providence with your eyes open. Come enjoy the freespace system the Fraction has opened in YWSO, but come with your cloak and your long rifle and get ready to fight for the freedom you and I love because though the CVA-era is coming to an end the ideological fight for genuine freespace in nullsec is only just beginning. True Knowledge
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Jade Constantine The B-WPLZ system will be shared and open for resource development with SF and Daisho pilots free to dock, trade, rat, mine, and whatever else they want to do in the system. Anchoring towers is permissable with consultation (basically avoid high value moons for mining purposes). Star Fraction agreed that parties need to ask permission to anchor towers? And that some parts of space (high value moons) are off limits? I thought that the need to ask permission was one of the things you despised about the CVA policy? Originally by: Jade Constantine E-Y, T-U, Y-9 systems will be open for transit and navigation but SF pilots are respectfully asked to refrain from bounty-hunting SanshaÆs in the area since these are an important income source for the Daisho Syndicate community and there is after all, plenty of alternative ratting income in B-W, KBP, YWSO etc. Hmmmm... CVA space was open for all to bounty hunt, but you just agreed that SF pilots need to refrain from bounty hunting in Daisho space. Are you admitting that when resources are limited one needs to come to an agreement how to share resources? This reminds me of the fable of the Anarchist Tragedy, where a group of well-meaning anarchists find that when they try to build a society, one needs to make continual compromises for the sake of efficiency and end up creating a society very like the one they originally fought against. It seems this is happening already to you. You have set your first steps towards imperialism. Also, if there already is no room for Star Fraction and Daisho ships to both bounty hunt in the stated systems, would you think there is room for others in those systems? Do you think Daisho Syndicate are justified in closing their space because they need the limited resources themselves? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:23:00 - [14] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 17/04/2010 13:24:02 Originally by: Merdaneth This reminds me of the fable of the Anarchist Tragedy I think you linked the wrong thread. Here is The Anarchist Tragedy. Its a very interesting read now in the context of the changes that have come to providence. True Knowledge
Xlost Gallente M. Corp Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:34:00 - [15] Edited by: Xlost on 17/04/2010 13:35:24 Edited by: Xlost on 17/04/2010 13:34:13 Originally by: Merdaneth It is not that difficult: - Daisho Syndicate allows their friends to access freely open system in their space - Daisho Syndicate disallows neutrals to access their space, they shoot anyone not known to them - Daisho Syndicate disallows hostiles to access any space, they shoot them - CVA allowed their friends to access their space - CVA allowed neutrals to access to their space, anyone not known to them was left alone - CVA disallowed hostiles access to their space, they shot them Which of the two policies is more in line with the Star Fraction concept of Freespace? Many entities have different political viewpoints and still fight to gather for a common cause. In this case its removing CVA and kids. While we were fighting CVA and Paxton were able to reinforce a friendly POS, which we plan to stop them from doing again. P.S. fixed your statement in Bold.
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Xlost Many entities have different political viewpoints and still fight to gather for a common cause. In this case its removing CVA and kids. While we were fighting CVA and Paxton were able to reinforce a friendly POS, which we plan to stop them from doing again. I agree mr. Xlost. I believe that Star Fraction was not fighting for Freespace, but rather against the CVA, and accepted any allies to achieve that goal. Still, the question remains, which of the two policies I sketched above do you believe is closer to Star Fraction's idea of Freespace ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Eternum Praetorian Method In Khaos	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:51:00 - [17] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 17/04/2010 13:51:29 What of those who Daisho has not negotiated with? If other entities are not satisfied that reparations have been made for their admission of slavery . . . will Starfaction aggress other such entities while hostilities commence in B-W pocket? @ Merdaneth Wo mama are you living in the past . . .
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:55:00 - [18] Quote: The Star Fraction has never promised to give freedom to the weak. It is our role and our passion to show the way for the strong to stand up and ensure their freedoms against oppression through persuasion, discussion, negotiation and yes, by main force of arms if necessary. So why isnt SF shooting daisho? Since i think it is pretty realistic to say daisho didnt make any step towards free space (unless you see napping someone as a step to free space, which would explain why you like the SC). Or is it actually that the only thing important the SF is that their pilots can have access everywhere, in other words that they just want some space and nap everyone they see?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 14:01:00 - [19] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 17/04/2010 14:02:42 Originally by: Merdaneth Star Fraction agreed that parties need to ask permission to anchor towers? And that some parts of space (high value moons) are off limits? I thought that the need to ask permission was one of the things you despised about the CVA policy? It is. On this issue you are going to need to reconcile the understanding that what the alliance voted for and what I as a free captain believe may not be one and the same thing. For example, in the system we installed an infrastructure hub (YWSO) there is absolutely no neccessity or expectation that neutrals or friendlies would need to ask permission to anchor towers. Quote: Hmmmm... CVA space was open for all to bounty hunt, but you just agreed that SF pilots need to refrain from bounty hunting in Daisho space. Are you admitting that when resources are limited one needs to come to an agreement how to share resources? CVA space was only "free" to those that accepted the dominant ideology of amarrian imperialism so do not wander into falsehood here. But yes, SF alliance has voted (by 41-35) to refrain from bounty hunting in 3 systems claimed by Daisho Syndicate. I may or may not agree with that aspect of the decision but as SF executor I have presented the terms and done the diplomacy neccessary. I do not believe that the resources are practically limited by the way. Having seen the wealth that is generated by upgrades to system infrastructure hubs I believe a single system can support far more population density than the KBP pocket has seen before. And again. We express our belief on this in the way we have upgraded the infrastructure in YWSO system and invited all to make use of the benefits with no restrictions whatsoever. Quote: Also, if there already is no room for Star Fraction and Daisho ships to both bounty hunt in the stated systems, would you think there is room for others in those systems? I don't happen to believe this. Bounty hunting in belts is a very minor element of upgraded system income. As again, you are going to have to accept that my opinion may well differ from the SF opinion expressed by popular vote. On this issue you will find that all Free Captains will be speaking for themselves. Quote: Do you think Daisho Syndicate are justified in closing their space because they need the limited resources themselves? Again (entirely for myself) No. I don't think its justified or neccessary and I think in the long term open skies and free trade is far more progressive (and profitable) for all concerned. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 14:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian What of those who Daisho has not negotiated with? If other entities are not satisfied that reparations have been made for their admission of slavery . . . will Starfaction aggress other such entities while hostilities commence in B-W pocket? If these entities avoid aggressing Star Fraction ships in the course of their activities they will remain neutral to us and can go about their business with absolutely no involvement or censure from us. We will never intentionally aggress a neutral to "defend space" or limit their freedom of movement on the frontier. We encourage all free pilots to do as their conscience and self-interest dictate. True Knowledge

Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.17 14:27:00 - [21] Originally by: Jade Constantine If these entities avoid aggressing Star Fraction ships in the course of their activities they will remain neutral to us and can go about their business with absolutely no involvement or censure from us. We will never intentionally aggress a neutral to "defend space" or limit their freedom of movement on the frontier. We encourage all free pilots to do as their conscience and self-interest dictate. And how exactly does that differ from the CVA's policy when they held Providence? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 14:30:00 - [22] Originally by: Rodj Blake And how exactly does that differ from the CVA's policy when they held Providence? Well CVA would say "set ALL your standings -10 to X entity because they ARE PIRATES!" pretty much. And use the bullying power of their NAP's and pet holders to ensure they could demand that any small corporation or entity do what they say or else. And of course the CVA being filthy slavers were setting their standings on the basis of KOS to non-filthy slavers. I'm surprised you needed to ask the question. (Actually not that surprised, you are PIE and dishonest debate is your stock in trade). True Knowledge
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake And how exactly does that differ from the CVA's policy when they held Providence? Well CVA would say "set ALL your standings -10 to X entity because they ARE PIRATES!" pretty much. And use the bullying power of their NAP's and pet holders to ensure they could demand that any small corporation or entity do what they say or else. And of course the CVA being filthy slavers were setting their standings on the basis of KOS to non-filthy slavers. I'm surprised you needed to ask the question. (Actually not that surprised, you are PIE and dishonest debate is your stock in trade). PIE maintains its own standings independently of the CVA, and the CVA has never pressured us to do otherwise. So you're wrong. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake And how exactly does that differ from the CVA's policy when they held Providence? Well CVA would say "set ALL your standings -10 to X entity because they ARE PIRATES!" pretty much. And use the bullying power of their NAP's and pet holders to ensure they could demand that any small corporation or entity do what they say or else. Haha the bullying power of their naps? Isnt that exactly what SF tried to do agaisnt daisho? But serious, spreading the same lies again and again doesnt make them more true. Everyone was allowed their own standings, if you were blue to AAA, fine, just dont scout for them in providence and surrounding systems. Even more, contrary to SF policy, you were still neutral and weclome in providence when shooting holders in your own space.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:24:00 - [25] Originally by: Rodj Blake PIE maintains its own standings independently of the CVA, and the CVA has never pressured us to do otherwise.So you're wrong. According to PIE Inc. Every single word I've ever spoken on this summit is "wong". Your Archbishop has devoted five years of his life to composing inumerable diatribes and condemnations against anything we say or do. Our very existence is anathema to your political, spiritual and mythological stances and we've spend the majority of our existence as an alliance having you set -10 KOS for regressive imperialist collaboration with a political entity we wish destroyed. We agree on next to nothing and likely never will. At this point I'd probably be shocked (and a little bit insulted) to read you posting anything but frenzied and frothing at the mouth denouncement of any public statement I made in any medium whatsoever. So yes Rodj Blake, you telling me I am wrong about CVA bullying standings from small entities is par for the course. In PIE's case since you were a founder member of the CVA and always used their claimed space for refuge and income when the going got too tough in empire it is no surprise YOU never got asked to set a standing you didn't agree with but I'm pretty damn sure you did abide by the CVA red list in Providence all the same. And that red-list involves a great many entities that you never likely had contact with before. But like I say, you and CVA are so close to be indistiguishable politically. Take the case instead of the many hundreds of entities who came to Providence as "neutrals" and found themselves aggressing the freespacers of the Star Fraction simply because the CVA had put our alliance name on a central red list and told lies about us being "pirates" in the Citadel channel. They didn't feel they had a choice, they felt obliged to follow the standings and "help out" against "hostile" when the CVA called. Regardless of the fact that shooting at these "hostiles" (from neutral) completed something of a fait accompli for all concerned. So no Rodj Blake. Do not come here with your lies and revisionism. You are exposed and bankrupt presently. You convince very few with your tawdry fantasies of the happy-clappy everybody is safe (as long as they condone slavery and political submission) Providence of yesteryear. Best you go back to arguing that anchoring system blockade units is not a hostile act in the other thread. True Knowledge
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:31:00 - [26] Wasn't there that whole extortion racket CVA were running, where they would mail some small corporation and extort some sum, for standings, because the corporation had been deemed "pirates". Yeah, seems really lofty and imperial, now that I think about it.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:40:00 - [27] You should apply to SF, same quality of information. When a corporation shot a neutral or holder they were given the option, either pay for the destroyed ship(s) or get set red. Doesnt seem to unreasonable to me...
Xlost Gallente M. Corp Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:50:00 - [28] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Xlost Many entities have different political viewpoints and still fight to gather for a common cause. In this case its removing CVA and kids. While we were fighting CVA and Paxton were able to reinforce a friendly POS, which we plan to stop them from doing again. I agree mr. Xlost. I believe that Star Fraction was not fighting for Freespace, but rather against the CVA, and accepted any allies to achieve that goal. Still, the question remains, which of the two policies I sketched above do you believe is closer to Star Fraction's idea of Freespace Neither since you are comparing two different entities, and two different aspects of game. Controlling space vs regulating space. CVA demanded Policy, while SF creates Policy with other entities.
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.04.17 16:25:00 - [29] Originally by: Furb Killer You should apply to SF, same quality of information. When a corporation shot a neutral or holder they were given the option, either pay for the destroyed ship(s) or get set red. Doesnt seem to unreasonable to me... Reviewing my notes on the matter, I see at least one instance where an ambiguously worded mail was sent to no less than 35 different CEOs, claiming 60 million reparations for a Dominix. If all of them had paid, that mail would have been quite profitable for the CVA. Pretty thin line between that and some of the lowlifes in Jita, in my eyes. I have laughed with other friends of mine who have received similar mails.
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.17 16:26:00 - [30] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well CVA would say "set ALL your standings -10 to X entity because they ARE PIRATES!" pretty much. And use the bullying power of their NAP's and pet holders to ensure they could demand that any small corporation or entity do what they say or else. I've been coming into Providence long before I joined PIE. Even when I was still a young lone wolf with a long gun risking the unknown. I didn't know about the existence of any Citadel channel, I was never contacted by anyone from the CVA or holders when bounty hunting in Providence. The only thing I ever noticed of CVA was the small docking fee I had to pay when I wanted to dock in on of their stations. I had no idea they were organizing patrols to keep the gates clean of hostiles camps, I simple never noticed a hostile camp. To the individual or the small corporations without space-holding ambitions and no desire to join common intel channels and no desire to pirate the CVA might as well have not existed. That is how 'hands off' their policy was. I guess it is too long ago for you to remember what it is to be a bold and daring lone wolf with a long gun braving the unknown of Providence. The lone wolf with the long gun quickly learns the following about null sec: 1. There are regions where there are frequent bubble-camps, no stations to dock and everyone you encounter will shoot you. Avoid these unless you have political connections to the occupying powers or can rely on a large organization to back you up. 2. There are regions without frequent bubble camps, with stations you can dock at and where not everyone you encounter will shoot you on sight. This are the regions to go to if you want to mine, bounty hunt or otherwise. However, I will take your advice, and (as a lone wolf with a long gun) I will contact Daisho Syndicate and the other new powers of Providence to see if I can negotiate a deal which allows me to enter their space in a my mining or bounty hunting vessel without immediately being hunted or falling prey to bubble camps, and without them imposing any conditions on me to accept such (like trying to tell me who I can and cannot shoot). What do you think my odds of success will be? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery



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