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[SF] Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate Peace Talks - KBP Summit

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Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 04:49:00 - [1] As of 03:00 hours this evening the council of free captains concluded a formal vote ratifying the peace terms provisionally agreed by the Daisho Syndicate and Fraction leadership 48 hours before. I can now report that by a margin of 41/35 (3 abstentions) the terms were adopted and peace with the Daisho Syndicate restored. I've been in contact with Daisho Diplomatic staff in the last few hours and received their permission to share the text of the agreement with the IGS (since this matter and key test of negotiations in the "new providence" environment has received quite a lot of comment and wider interest from the community at large). So here it is. Quote: Formal agreement of mutual space usage and transit between The Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate û the alliances agree that neither party will attempt to restrict the movement rights of the other in any system in Eve space. Star Fraction and Daisho pilots will travel wherever they choose in Providence and the former KBP pocket û including the systems KBP, B-WPLZ, E-YCML, T-UO0T, and Y9-MDG. The B-WPLZ system will be shared and open for resource development with SF and Daisho pilots free to dock, trade, rat, mine, and whatever else they want to do in the system. Anchoring towers is permissable with consultation (basically avoid high value moons for mining purposes). E-Y, T-U, Y-9 systems will be open for transit and navigation but SF pilots are respectfully asked to refrain from bounty-hunting SanshaÆs in the area since these are an important income source for the Daisho Syndicate community and there is after all, plenty of alternative ratting income in B-W, KBP, YWSO etc. Completing Escalations originating elsewhere in space is accepted. ItÆs important to note that Star Fraction pilots do not travel in nullsec freespace to annoy or irritate our neighbours or to share intel on blues or neutrals. We will cooperate in the destruction of reds and are happy to help our friends destroy mutual reds. Neither Daisho Syndicate nor Star Fraction officers or members will attempt to ôorderö or otherwise ôdemandö action from captains of the other organization and will respect free transit rights at all times. Daisho Syndicate will formally apologize for the destruction of ClairXXXÆs Myrmidon class Battlecruiser in B-W system and reimburse the full value of the loss. This agreement represents a binding settlement between Daisho Syndicate and the Star Fraction but will need ratification by a majority vote of the free captains of the Fraction before it can enter formal agreement. Until ratification occurs and is communicated to Daisho Syndicate management it is understood and expected that conflict continues and no additional losses will be addressed in reimbursement or penalty claims hereafter. * So that concludes the issue to this point. The Star Fraction is content that diplomacy and respectful persuasion has made progress here alongside action in space and clash of fleets. And the first significant difference in opinion in system usage in the "new providence" has been resolved by direct negotiation between involved parties without external interference. Quite a huge difference to the enforced dominions and enclosed-standings bullying of the CVA-era and slaver-pet-holders. Questions and comments are welcome.** True Knowledge
Black Necris Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.04.17 05:38:00 - [2] His highness, The Magnanimous and Serene Lordship Black Necris congratulate the Free Captains and Daisho Syndicate for reaching an agreement. May they have the best spirits and exotic dancers always flowing in their direction. His Most Reverend Eminence Black Necris Archbishop of the New and Improved Church of Providence "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Major Templar Caldari KINGS OF EDEN Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.04.17 07:49:00 - [3] Now, I must ask Jade, what is your official stance on their admission to slavery? Also, from what I understood, it has always been your view of closing off space to neutrals as a wrong move and therefore that alliance is wrong. Sorry if it's worded weird but I'm not able to concentrate tonight, too many boosters and my brain is fried. My understanding has always been that if an alliance restricts pilots from free movement that they are in fact what you despise and seek to rid New Eden of, is this true? If so, how does this agreement of, "Star Fraction can do it but no one else can" seem right? If not, then what is your official stance as of now? Because seeking to make an empire, closing space to all others "not in their blue list" and also slavery seems to be exactly what Daisho have done. Thanks, Major Major Templar Head of Armed Forces Kings Of Eden Sev3rance
Stratio Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.04.17 09:39:00 - [4] Edited by: Stratio on 17/04/2010 09:40:28 Congratulations on sorting out this mess and showing how free alliances can live side by side in Providence. Originally by: Major Templar Now, I must ask Jade, what is your official stance on their admission to slavery? Have you read this statement by Daisho Syndicate? Official Apology _____________________ Poreuomai's Spokesman For Tribe and Honour!
Lucai Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 11:27:00 - [5] Im not Jade, but we are all free captains, so Ill just give you my view to ponder over. First off, people have to accept that our concept of Freespace is not and never has been a policed space with strict rules and laws, but "Freespace with Teeth". Everybody is responsible for his own actions and can make his own arrangements with other entities. The concept of some entity to hold hands with people like little children does not fit into our ideology. The key word is self-empowerment. Now, we made a free-transit agreement with Daisho, proving that its possible. What is to stop anyone else to do the same? I do of course like NRDS entities that allow free transit without any need of a treaty* a lot more than organisations that are NBSI at core. But Star Fraction's force is not limitless (surprise!), and we have to focus at times. The focus is currently not on Daisho as they seem to have at least made the first step on the right path. We will see how things develop from there. * and dont get me started on the old Provi-Block. E.g. -7- had attacked us first, without provocation. How NRDS of them.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 11:30:00 - [6] Originally by: Major Templar Now, I must ask Jade, what is your official stance on their admission to slavery? Also, from what I understood, it has always been your view of closing off space to neutrals as a wrong move and therefore that alliance is wrong. Sorry if it's worded weird but I'm not able to concentrate tonight, too many boosters and my brain is fried. My understanding has always been that if an alliance restricts pilots from free movement that they are in fact what you despise and seek to rid New Eden of, is this true? If so, how does this agreement of, "Star Fraction can do it but no one else can" seem right? If not, then what is your official stance as of now? Because seeking to make an empire, closing space to all others "not in their blue list" and also slavery seems to be exactly what Daisho have done. Thanks, Major The comments made in local comms were just used to aggravate our pilots, I do not believe Daisho pilots actually hold Slaves. As you can see by the results of our vote on this issue it was a close call, many pilots would have been happy to wage a campaign to the death and remove an NBSI entity from the region. However, ultimaty a majority felt that the changes in space and diplomatically warranted further pursuit down diplomatic and ideological terms. We do of course promote the use of NRDS RoE and we hope our friends and neighbors will see the example we set is good for everyone in the region and perhaps follow suit. It is not our place however, to tell people who they can and cannot shoot. NBSI, is far from an ideal RoE, but it is not strictly regressive enclosureism. *ChipMo raises a glass > To the future, comrades!
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.17 11:55:00 - [7] Edited by: Archbishop on 17/04/2010 12:00:24 Originally by: ChipMo The comments made in local comms were just used to aggravate our pilots, I do not believe Daisho pilots actually hold Slaves. As you can see by the results of our vote on this issue it was a close call, many pilots would have been happy to wage a campaign to the death and remove an NBSI entity from the region. However, ultimaty a majority felt that the changes in space and diplomatically warranted further pursuit down diplomatic and ideological terms. We do of course promote the use of NRDS RoE and we hope our friends and neighbors will see the example we set is good for everyone in the region and perhaps follow suit. It is not our place however, to tell people who they can and cannot shoot. NBSI, is far! So in other words your peace agreement... 1. Fails to provide free transit rights for anyone but yourselves. 2. Doesn't investigate the admission of slavery. 3. Allows a NBSI entity to continue to control space and shoot everyone else. Given past Star Fraction wars which they have claimed justified by claiming others oppose free transit, advocate slavery and are NBSI I find this highly unusual. While I appreciate the "vote was close" as ChipMo says I find it odd that any free captain worth his salt would allow a bunch of enclosurist, slave owning, NBSI territorial claiming alliance types "peace" when in reality none of that has changed. Perhaps this is something else. Just as we have seen in the past the Star Fraction operate with pirates and terrorists perhaps now they're seeing no problem in shacking up with alliances that are NBSI and claim enclosurist space policies. The fact remains DS is still holding space and will fire on anyone else in that space thus nothing has changed. The fact the Star Fraction has made a backroom deal with them obviously shows their "cause" of freespace is hardly entrenched and is more "flexible" like their RoS appears to be at times. Much like their pirate "friends" they seem happy to overlook things they oppose when it's convenient for them. Pirates who mysteriously sit at gates with them and shoot everyone who wanders by but not them. The fact the Star Fraction has made a backroom deal with them obviously shows their "cause" of freespace is hardly entrenched and is more "flexible" like their RoS appears to be at times. Doing this would be like me "making peace" with a Minmatar terrorist to allow me access to Minmatar space to capture slaves as long as I allow the terrorist access to Amarrian space to kill Amarrians as long as he doesn't kill me. It would be completely hypocritical for both of us. Using that same standard I think some people would view the Star Fraction as not committed to freespace only to their own benefit. This is a shocking revelation to be sure. Perhaps ChipMo could address these observations as I'm sure many others have made the same observations and indeed are wondering "why would they make peace with an alliance that does everything they oppose?". Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.04.17 12:13:00 - [8] Poasting to say only one thing: Hey look its the slaver who thinks SBU's are non-agressive structures! (Apologies for derail Jade, I'm just not over the idiocy of it all yet).
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 12:34:00 - [9] Edited by: ChipMo on 17/04/2010 12:34:00 Originally by: Archbishop So in other words No. Leave my words alone, they say what they say & that is all. Originally by: Archbishop This is a shocking revelation to be sure. Perhaps ChipMo could address these observations as I'm sure many others have made the same observations and indeed are wondering "why would they make peace with an alliance that does everything they oppose?". Archbishop Quite simple, they have shown willing to change and taken some tentative steps in the direction of Free Space. This was enough to satisfy our membership, we shall now focus on the continuing liberation of Providence.
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.17 12:49:00 - [10] It is not that difficult: - Daisho Syndicate allows their friends to access their space - Daisho Syndicate disallows neutrals to access their space, they shoot anyone not known to them - Daisho Syndicate disallows hostiles to access their space, they shoot them - CVA allowed their friends to access their space - CVA allowed neutrals to access to their space, anyone not known to them was left alone - CVA disallowed hostiles access to their space, they shot them Which of the two policies is more in line with the Star Fraction concept of Freespace? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 12:59:00 - [11] @Major Templar 1. With regard to the issue of Daisho Syndicate pilotÆs ôadmission to slaveryö we consulted with our allies in the UshraÆkhan and two of their leaders conducted personal investigations in the KBP pocket to assure us all that these were simply throwaway comments in local chat rather than reflecting any genuine regression to CVA-era slave-holding aspirations in Providence. In our estimation now this was simply a case of ôboastingö in local chat to provoke a fight more than anything else. 2. Yes, it has always been our view that space is free and that closing off space to neutral transit is a regressive policy. We have always encouraged pilots to stand up and fight for themselves and take their freedom, not kneel and beg for it as a hand out from a ôstronger powerö. What this period of war/diplomacy has demonstrated is precisely what weÆve always said: the best guarantee to freespace is to maintain a strong personal capability and be prepared to fight those who would restrict your movements. The Star Fraction has never promised to give freedom to the weak. It is our role and our passion to show the way for the strong to stand up and ensure their freedoms against oppression through persuasion, discussion, negotiation and yes, by main force of arms if necessary. Here we have shown that the Free Captains are prepared to fight to ensure our rights of free transit in the open stars. We have shown that if one fights, if one is prepared to make a territorial power bleed in counter action and guerrilla presence, if one shows resolution and cunning, commitment and courage in equal measure then the territorialist will come back to the table and reach afford in preference to having you as an enemy. I commend this example to ANYONE and ANY organization in New Eden that wishes to travel freely on the frontier in New Eden. Talk, negotiate, assert your freedoms, and if anyone wishes to deny those freedoms then stand up and fight for them. 3. Now on the specific issue of why we do not feel responsible to ôguaranteeö the safety and freedoms of other travellers it should become apparent that we want people to stand up on their own two feet rather than be content to shelter in another powerÆs shadow. We want neutrals to face the same challenges and choices we have faced. We want them to conduct diplomacy, to present credible threat, we want them to demonstrate to the xenophobe that respectful free space is better than roadblocks and repression. (And this demonstration generally needs black ops, bombers, economic suppression and credible threat). But letÆs look at this from the other angle. Say a neutral pilot is ganked on KBP gate by an NBSI power in Providence: ôWhy did you let that happen? (says the neutral to the Fraction) ôLet what happen?ö (Say we) ôLet me get killed by those xenophobes! You were at the gate and did nothing to protect meö ôGo and get yourself a long rifle and a dark coat, come back in the wee hours and weÆll do nothing to stop you taking your justified revenge either.ö True freedom comes with consequence both for the neutral who is ganked and the territorial power that committed aggression and invited revenge. I positively encourage any neutral pilot who is unjustifiably ganked on the Dital gate in KBP to invest in a Stealth Bomber and spend a part of your schedule stalking the economic functions and bounty hunting of your enemies for as long as it takes them to come to ôpeace termsö and realize that perhaps NRDS respect for neutral transit might be a better policy for their own peace of mind. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:00:00 - [12] You understand Major Templar. I donÆt want a Providence Region filled with defenceless sheep ratting away in belts with a big bad dominant power ôguaranteeingö their safety at the cost of their political independence on forced uniform standings (aka CVA-era). I want a Providence Region filled with armed neutrals with long rifles and the will to take revenge on anyone or anything that restricts their free movement in the open stars. I will sell those guys their rifles in Choonka, Kamela, Dihra, IÆll watch them go past the gates in KBP with a salute to a comrade of the future. The Star Fraction agenda is utterly subversive to all notions of monolithic territorial control. We undermine standings enclosure by our very presence. Our example puts empowered personal responsibility on the centre stage and I encourage any neutral pilot reading this thread with a lust for adventure and the open frontier to come to Providence with your eyes open. Come enjoy the freespace system the Fraction has opened in YWSO, but come with your cloak and your long rifle and get ready to fight for the freedom you and I love because though the CVA-era is coming to an end the ideological fight for genuine freespace in nullsec is only just beginning. True Knowledge
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Jade Constantine The B-WPLZ system will be shared and open for resource development with SF and Daisho pilots free to dock, trade, rat, mine, and whatever else they want to do in the system. Anchoring towers is permissable with consultation (basically avoid high value moons for mining purposes). Star Fraction agreed that parties need to ask permission to anchor towers? And that some parts of space (high value moons) are off limits? I thought that the need to ask permission was one of the things you despised about the CVA policy? Originally by: Jade Constantine E-Y, T-U, Y-9 systems will be open for transit and navigation but SF pilots are respectfully asked to refrain from bounty-hunting SanshaÆs in the area since these are an important income source for the Daisho Syndicate community and there is after all, plenty of alternative ratting income in B-W, KBP, YWSO etc. Hmmmm... CVA space was open for all to bounty hunt, but you just agreed that SF pilots need to refrain from bounty hunting in Daisho space. Are you admitting that when resources are limited one needs to come to an agreement how to share resources? This reminds me of the fable of the Anarchist Tragedy, where a group of well-meaning anarchists find that when they try to build a society, one needs to make continual compromises for the sake of efficiency and end up creating a society very like the one they originally fought against. It seems this is happening already to you. You have set your first steps towards imperialism. Also, if there already is no room for Star Fraction and Daisho ships to both bounty hunt in the stated systems, would you think there is room for others in those systems? Do you think Daisho Syndicate are justified in closing their space because they need the limited resources themselves? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:23:00 - [14] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 17/04/2010 13:24:02 Originally by: Merdaneth This reminds me of the fable of the Anarchist Tragedy I think you linked the wrong thread. Here is The Anarchist Tragedy. Its a very interesting read now in the context of the changes that have come to providence. True Knowledge
Xlost Gallente M. Corp Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:34:00 - [15] Edited by: Xlost on 17/04/2010 13:35:24 Edited by: Xlost on 17/04/2010 13:34:13 Originally by: Merdaneth It is not that difficult: - Daisho Syndicate allows their friends to access freely open system in their space - Daisho Syndicate disallows neutrals to access their space, they shoot anyone not known to them - Daisho Syndicate disallows hostiles to access any space, they shoot them - CVA allowed their friends to access their space - CVA allowed neutrals to access to their space, anyone not known to them was left alone - CVA disallowed hostiles access to their space, they shot them Which of the two policies is more in line with the Star Fraction concept of Freespace? Many entities have different political viewpoints and still fight to gather for a common cause. In this case its removing CVA and kids. While we were fighting CVA and Paxton were able to reinforce a friendly POS, which we plan to stop them from doing again. P.S. fixed your statement in Bold.
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Xlost Many entities have different political viewpoints and still fight to gather for a common cause. In this case its removing CVA and kids. While we were fighting CVA and Paxton were able to reinforce a friendly POS, which we plan to stop them from doing again. I agree mr. Xlost. I believe that Star Fraction was not fighting for Freespace, but rather against the CVA, and accepted any allies to achieve that goal. Still, the question remains, which of the two policies I sketched above do you believe is closer to Star Fraction's idea of Freespace ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Eternum Praetorian Method In Khaos	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:51:00 - [17] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 17/04/2010 13:51:29 What of those who Daisho has not negotiated with? If other entities are not satisfied that reparations have been made for their admission of slavery . . . will Starfaction aggress other such entities while hostilities commence in B-W pocket? @ Merdaneth Wo mama are you living in the past . . .
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.17 13:55:00 - [18] Quote: The Star Fraction has never promised to give freedom to the weak. It is our role and our passion to show the way for the strong to stand up and ensure their freedoms against oppression through persuasion, discussion, negotiation and yes, by main force of arms if necessary. So why isnt SF shooting daisho? Since i think it is pretty realistic to say daisho didnt make any step towards free space (unless you see napping someone as a step to free space, which would explain why you like the SC). Or is it actually that the only thing important the SF is that their pilots can have access everywhere, in other words that they just want some space and nap everyone they see?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 14:01:00 - [19] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 17/04/2010 14:02:42 Originally by: Merdaneth Star Fraction agreed that parties need to ask permission to anchor towers? And that some parts of space (high value moons) are off limits? I thought that the need to ask permission was one of the things you despised about the CVA policy? It is. On this issue you are going to need to reconcile the understanding that what the alliance voted for and what I as a free captain believe may not be one and the same thing. For example, in the system we installed an infrastructure hub (YWSO) there is absolutely no neccessity or expectation that neutrals or friendlies would need to ask permission to anchor towers. Quote: Hmmmm... CVA space was open for all to bounty hunt, but you just agreed that SF pilots need to refrain from bounty hunting in Daisho space. Are you admitting that when resources are limited one needs to come to an agreement how to share resources? CVA space was only "free" to those that accepted the dominant ideology of amarrian imperialism so do not wander into falsehood here. But yes, SF alliance has voted (by 41-35) to refrain from bounty hunting in 3 systems claimed by Daisho Syndicate. I may or may not agree with that aspect of the decision but as SF executor I have presented the terms and done the diplomacy neccessary. I do not believe that the resources are practically limited by the way. Having seen the wealth that is generated by upgrades to system infrastructure hubs I believe a single system can support far more population density than the KBP pocket has seen before. And again. We express our belief on this in the way we have upgraded the infrastructure in YWSO system and invited all to make use of the benefits with no restrictions whatsoever. Quote: Also, if there already is no room for Star Fraction and Daisho ships to both bounty hunt in the stated systems, would you think there is room for others in those systems? I don't happen to believe this. Bounty hunting in belts is a very minor element of upgraded system income. As again, you are going to have to accept that my opinion may well differ from the SF opinion expressed by popular vote. On this issue you will find that all Free Captains will be speaking for themselves. Quote: Do you think Daisho Syndicate are justified in closing their space because they need the limited resources themselves? Again (entirely for myself) No. I don't think its justified or neccessary and I think in the long term open skies and free trade is far more progressive (and profitable) for all concerned. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 14:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian What of those who Daisho has not negotiated with? If other entities are not satisfied that reparations have been made for their admission of slavery . . . will Starfaction aggress other such entities while hostilities commence in B-W pocket? If these entities avoid aggressing Star Fraction ships in the course of their activities they will remain neutral to us and can go about their business with absolutely no involvement or censure from us. We will never intentionally aggress a neutral to "defend space" or limit their freedom of movement on the frontier. We encourage all free pilots to do as their conscience and self-interest dictate. True Knowledge
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.17 14:27:00 - [21] Originally by: Jade Constantine If these entities avoid aggressing Star Fraction ships in the course of their activities they will remain neutral to us and can go about their business with absolutely no involvement or censure from us. We will never intentionally aggress a neutral to "defend space" or limit their freedom of movement on the frontier. We encourage all free pilots to do as their conscience and self-interest dictate. And how exactly does that differ from the CVA's policy when they held Providence? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 14:30:00 - [22] Originally by: Rodj Blake And how exactly does that differ from the CVA's policy when they held Providence? Well CVA would say "set ALL your standings -10 to X entity because they ARE PIRATES!" pretty much. And use the bullying power of their NAP's and pet holders to ensure they could demand that any small corporation or entity do what they say or else. And of course the CVA being filthy slavers were setting their standings on the basis of KOS to non-filthy slavers. I'm surprised you needed to ask the question. (Actually not that surprised, you are PIE and dishonest debate is your stock in trade). True Knowledge
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake And how exactly does that differ from the CVA's policy when they held Providence? Well CVA would say "set ALL your standings -10 to X entity because they ARE PIRATES!" pretty much. And use the bullying power of their NAP's and pet holders to ensure they could demand that any small corporation or entity do what they say or else. And of course the CVA being filthy slavers were setting their standings on the basis of KOS to non-filthy slavers. I'm surprised you needed to ask the question. (Actually not that surprised, you are PIE and dishonest debate is your stock in trade). PIE maintains its own standings independently of the CVA, and the CVA has never pressured us to do otherwise. So you're wrong. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake And how exactly does that differ from the CVA's policy when they held Providence? Well CVA would say "set ALL your standings -10 to X entity because they ARE PIRATES!" pretty much. And use the bullying power of their NAP's and pet holders to ensure they could demand that any small corporation or entity do what they say or else. Haha the bullying power of their naps? Isnt that exactly what SF tried to do agaisnt daisho? But serious, spreading the same lies again and again doesnt make them more true. Everyone was allowed their own standings, if you were blue to AAA, fine, just dont scout for them in providence and surrounding systems. Even more, contrary to SF policy, you were still neutral and weclome in providence when shooting holders in your own space.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:24:00 - [25] Originally by: Rodj Blake PIE maintains its own standings independently of the CVA, and the CVA has never pressured us to do otherwise.So you're wrong. According to PIE Inc. Every single word I've ever spoken on this summit is "wong". Your Archbishop has devoted five years of his life to composing inumerable diatribes and condemnations against anything we say or do. Our very existence is anathema to your political, spiritual and mythological stances and we've spend the majority of our existence as an alliance having you set -10 KOS for regressive imperialist collaboration with a political entity we wish destroyed. We agree on next to nothing and likely never will. At this point I'd probably be shocked (and a little bit insulted) to read you posting anything but frenzied and frothing at the mouth denouncement of any public statement I made in any medium whatsoever. So yes Rodj Blake, you telling me I am wrong about CVA bullying standings from small entities is par for the course. In PIE's case since you were a founder member of the CVA and always used their claimed space for refuge and income when the going got too tough in empire it is no surprise YOU never got asked to set a standing you didn't agree with but I'm pretty damn sure you did abide by the CVA red list in Providence all the same. And that red-list involves a great many entities that you never likely had contact with before. But like I say, you and CVA are so close to be indistiguishable politically. Take the case instead of the many hundreds of entities who came to Providence as "neutrals" and found themselves aggressing the freespacers of the Star Fraction simply because the CVA had put our alliance name on a central red list and told lies about us being "pirates" in the Citadel channel. They didn't feel they had a choice, they felt obliged to follow the standings and "help out" against "hostile" when the CVA called. Regardless of the fact that shooting at these "hostiles" (from neutral) completed something of a fait accompli for all concerned. So no Rodj Blake. Do not come here with your lies and revisionism. You are exposed and bankrupt presently. You convince very few with your tawdry fantasies of the happy-clappy everybody is safe (as long as they condone slavery and political submission) Providence of yesteryear. Best you go back to arguing that anchoring system blockade units is not a hostile act in the other thread. True Knowledge
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:31:00 - [26] Wasn't there that whole extortion racket CVA were running, where they would mail some small corporation and extort some sum, for standings, because the corporation had been deemed "pirates". Yeah, seems really lofty and imperial, now that I think about it.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:40:00 - [27] You should apply to SF, same quality of information. When a corporation shot a neutral or holder they were given the option, either pay for the destroyed ship(s) or get set red. Doesnt seem to unreasonable to me...
Xlost Gallente M. Corp Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2010.04.17 15:50:00 - [28] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Xlost Many entities have different political viewpoints and still fight to gather for a common cause. In this case its removing CVA and kids. While we were fighting CVA and Paxton were able to reinforce a friendly POS, which we plan to stop them from doing again. I agree mr. Xlost. I believe that Star Fraction was not fighting for Freespace, but rather against the CVA, and accepted any allies to achieve that goal. Still, the question remains, which of the two policies I sketched above do you believe is closer to Star Fraction's idea of Freespace Neither since you are comparing two different entities, and two different aspects of game. Controlling space vs regulating space. CVA demanded Policy, while SF creates Policy with other entities.
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.04.17 16:25:00 - [29] Originally by: Furb Killer You should apply to SF, same quality of information. When a corporation shot a neutral or holder they were given the option, either pay for the destroyed ship(s) or get set red. Doesnt seem to unreasonable to me... Reviewing my notes on the matter, I see at least one instance where an ambiguously worded mail was sent to no less than 35 different CEOs, claiming 60 million reparations for a Dominix. If all of them had paid, that mail would have been quite profitable for the CVA. Pretty thin line between that and some of the lowlifes in Jita, in my eyes. I have laughed with other friends of mine who have received similar mails.
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.17 16:26:00 - [30] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well CVA would say "set ALL your standings -10 to X entity because they ARE PIRATES!" pretty much. And use the bullying power of their NAP's and pet holders to ensure they could demand that any small corporation or entity do what they say or else. I've been coming into Providence long before I joined PIE. Even when I was still a young lone wolf with a long gun risking the unknown. I didn't know about the existence of any Citadel channel, I was never contacted by anyone from the CVA or holders when bounty hunting in Providence. The only thing I ever noticed of CVA was the small docking fee I had to pay when I wanted to dock in on of their stations. I had no idea they were organizing patrols to keep the gates clean of hostiles camps, I simple never noticed a hostile camp. To the individual or the small corporations without space-holding ambitions and no desire to join common intel channels and no desire to pirate the CVA might as well have not existed. That is how 'hands off' their policy was. I guess it is too long ago for you to remember what it is to be a bold and daring lone wolf with a long gun braving the unknown of Providence. The lone wolf with the long gun quickly learns the following about null sec: 1. There are regions where there are frequent bubble-camps, no stations to dock and everyone you encounter will shoot you. Avoid these unless you have political connections to the occupying powers or can rely on a large organization to back you up. 2. There are regions without frequent bubble camps, with stations you can dock at and where not everyone you encounter will shoot you on sight. This are the regions to go to if you want to mine, bounty hunt or otherwise. However, I will take your advice, and (as a lone wolf with a long gun) I will contact Daisho Syndicate and the other new powers of Providence to see if I can negotiate a deal which allows me to enter their space in a my mining or bounty hunting vessel without immediately being hunted or falling prey to bubble camps, and without them imposing any conditions on me to accept such (like trying to tell me who I can and cannot shoot). What do you think my odds of success will be? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 16:30:00 - [31] Originally by: Merdaneth What do you think my odds of success will be? Given they'd have to factor in how trustworthy you are, I wouldn't like to say. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.04.17 16:33:00 - [32] Originally by: Merdaneth ... You are free to dock in NMG space, and use it for whatever purpose you choose. If we are not home, it's likely that you may be safe (be sure and take other entities into account). However, fair warning, NMG operates NBSI, and are actively training our academy at the moment.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.17 16:56:00 - [33] Edited by: Furb Killer on 17/04/2010 16:57:37 Quote: Reviewing my notes on the matter, I see at least one instance where an ambiguously worded mail was sent to no less than 35 different CEOs, claiming 60 million reparations for a Dominix. If all of them had paid, that mail would have been quite profitable for the CVA. Pretty thin line between that and some of the lowlifes in Jita, in my eyes. I have laughed with other friends of mine who have received similar mails. While the mail in that situation probably wasnt too smart written (I remember the incident), you apparently already forgot what actually happened. All those who got the mail were directly involved in an attack on a blue ship. So unlike you wrote first, they werent in any way treated unfairly, they shot a blue ship, they were given the choice of becoming red or paying for the loss, where in this case due to the many different entities involved the standard procedure didnt work out that great. But paying would only be an option when they didnt want to become KOS, if they didnt want to become KOS they shouldnt have destroyed the ship in the first place. So unlike what you insinuated, they werent deemed pirates to extort them isk, they were deemed pirates because they shot a friendly vessel without profocation.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.17 17:03:00 - [34] Originally by: Furb Killer While the mail in that situation probably wasnt too smart written (I remember the incident), you apparently already forgot what actually happened. While we are on the subject Furb Killer. Who are you? You've been quite active in anti-SF posting the last week and involved in a lot of our threads but you don't display your corp or alliance info. Would you be prepared to introduce yourself a little and explain your personal interest in these discussions? Who do you represent (if anybody)? I think it would be polite in the circumstances if we knew who you were in a political context. True Knowledge
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.04.17 17:05:00 - [35] Originally by: Furb Killer ... In my review of the matter, including ship kill reports, that Dominix was smartbomb fit. Hardly what I would consider "without provocation".
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.17 19:08:00 - [36] Edited by: Furb Killer on 17/04/2010 19:14:19 Originally by: Erichk Knaar Originally by: Furb Killer ... In my review of the matter, including ship kill reports, that Dominix was smartbomb fit. Hardly what I would consider "without provocation". That happens sometimes against a large group of frigate class ships. But are you telling me they first scanned the ship before they opened fire? Quote: While we are on the subject Furb Killer. Who are you? Not everyone can have such, uhm, interesting career switches as you have. I dont represent anyone, besides myself. Which is also why i have my alliance and corp tickers disabled, since it wouldnt add anything to enable them. But for those interested it should not be hard to find out.
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.17 23:29:00 - [37] Originally by: ChipMo Originally by: Archbishop So in other words No. Leave my words alone, they say what they say & that is all. Perhaps you could tell me then ChipMo which of my three conclusions was incorrect? Or are they all correct interpretations of what has taken place? I will post them again for your convenience... 1. Fails to provide free transit rights for anyone but yourselves. 2. Doesn't investigate the admission of slavery. 3. Allows a NBSI entity to continue to control space and shoot everyone else. Obviously these are open for you to contest if you want to provide specifics. Thus if you can provide evidence that any of these three are incorrect I'll be happy to listen. Originally by: ChipMo Originally by: Archbishop This is a shocking revelation to be sure. Perhaps ChipMo could address these observations as I'm sure many others have made the same observations and indeed are wondering "why would they make peace with an alliance that does everything they oppose?". Archbishop Quite simple, they have shown willing to change and taken some tentative steps in the direction of Free Space. This was enough to satisfy our membership, we shall now focus on the continuing liberation of Providence. So let me get this straight. They made a few changes and moved a little toward what you want so you're satisfied? What happened to the absolute demand for freespace we've heard so much about over the years as you've justified wars against everyone in sight? Apparently the Star Fraction is not committed to the concept of freespace at all rather they're just in it for themselves. I recall past wars where you've insisted an opponent totally disavow their loyalty and beliefs and pledge to your concepts 100%. Here in this case though the opponent has done nothing of the sort instead they're keeping ALL of the things you oppose and changing NONE of them. This leads me to conclude all your past wars were just using "freespace" as some kind of excuse. Your past wars trumpted the desire for all man to be able to travel freely throughout the stars, here though we see that isn't the goal at all, now we see a backroom deal made that basically puts you into bed with someone doing everything you oppose. As I said it's like me letting a Minmatar terrorist into Amarr to kill a few people as long as they're not friends of mine as long as he lets me into Minmatar space to abduct some slaves as long as they're not his relatives. It's complete hypocrisy and a betrayal of everything you claim to stand for. Perhaps this is like those "neutral pirate" friends of Star Fraction. Since they never fired on you (oddly enough) you had no problem standing by while they slaughtered the innocent. I've always wondered why an organization so dedicated to "stopping oppression" (ie: governments) would stand by and watch people being oppressed by pirates. Given this latest "peace treaty" I now have to believe you've also had backroom deals for peace with pirates and all other sorts of malcontents. It is very hard for the Star Fraction to now claim the mantle of the "fighters for freespace". Instead you are the "backroom dealers with terrorists, pirates and whatnot who use freespace as an excuse for war". I would encourage the Star Fraction to consider the consequences of this action and the ramifications on your reputation. By publically creating a backroom deal with a group doing everything you publically claim to oppose you've crawled into bed with the enemy of freespace for your own convenience. It's damning to say the least. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Grr Amarr Epitoth Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.18 00:34:00 - [38] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake PIE maintains its own standings independently of the CVA, and the CVA has never pressured us to do otherwise.So you're wrong. According to PIE Inc. Every single word I've ever spoken on this summit is "wong". Your Archbishop has devoted five years of his life to composing inumerable diatribes and condemnations against anything we say or do. Our very existence is anathema to your political, spiritual and mythological stances and we've spend the majority of our existence as an alliance having you set -10 KOS for regressive imperialist collaboration with a political entity we wish destroyed. We agree on next to nothing and likely never will. At this point I'd probably be shocked (and a little bit insulted) to read you posting anything but frenzied and frothing at the mouth denouncement of any public statement I made in any medium whatsoever. So yes Rodj Blake, you telling me I am wrong about CVA bullying standings from small entities is par for the course. In PIE's case since you were a founder member of the CVA and always used their claimed space for refuge and income when the going got too tough in empire it is no surprise YOU never got asked to set a standing you didn't agree with but I'm pretty damn sure you did abide by the CVA red list in Providence all the same. And that red-list involves a great many entities that you never likely had contact with before. But like I say, you and CVA are so close to be indistiguishable politically. Take the case instead of the many hundreds of entities who came to Providence as "neutrals" and found themselves aggressing the freespacers of the Star Fraction simply because the CVA had put our alliance name on a central red list and told lies about us being "pirates" in the Citadel channel. They didn't feel they had a choice, they felt obliged to follow the standings and "help out" against "hostile" when the CVA called. Regardless of the fact that shooting at these "hostiles" (from neutral) completed something of a fait accompli for all concerned. So no Rodj Blake. Do not come here with your lies and revisionism. You are exposed and bankrupt presently. You convince very few with your tawdry fantasies of the happy-clappy everybody is safe (as long as they condone slavery and political submission) Providence of yesteryear. Best you go back to arguing that anchoring system blockade units is not a hostile act in the other thread. Just to confirm you are in fact wrong. CVA has never forced anybody to set anybody else red nor will it ever I expect.
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.04.18 00:37:00 - [39] Originally by: Merdaneth It is not that difficult: - Daisho Syndicate allows their friends to access their space - Daisho Syndicate disallows neutrals to access their space, they shoot anyone not known to them - Daisho Syndicate disallows hostiles to access their space, they shoot them - CVA allowed their friends to access their space - CVA allowed neutrals to access to their space, anyone not known to them was left alone - CVA disallowed hostiles access to their space, they shot them Which of the two policies is more in line with the Star Fraction concept of Freespace? Crikey, has it become dim-witted slaver month or something?! Let me explain the critical differences you appear to miss: - CVA are slavers seeking to expand the Amarrian empire and its barbaric practices to 0.0 space - Daisho seek to mind their own business in a single constellation and have no interest in slavery or expanding the Amariann empire. The big picture is important as I explained to Furb Killer somewhere else.
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.18 00:54:00 - [40] Originally by: Erichk Knaar Originally by: Merdaneth ... You are free to dock in NMG space, and use it for whatever purpose you choose. If we are not home, it's likely that you may be safe (be sure and take other entities into account). However, fair warning, NMG operates NBSI, and are actively training our academy at the moment. I am currently docked at the Black Mansion. I fired a few shots at a NMG Heretic blocking the gate to let him know I wanted to pass. Other NMG members were oddly and utterly silent on local comms. Perhaps they need to adjust their transmitters? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 01:20:00 - [41] Originally by: Grr Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake PIE maintains its own standings independently of the CVA, and the CVA has never pressured us to do otherwise.So you're wrong. According to PIE Inc. Every single word I've ever spoken on this summit is "wong". Your Archbishop has devoted five years of his life to composing inumerable diatribes and condemnations against anything we say or do. Our very existence is anathema to your political, spiritual and mythological stances and we've spend the majority of our existence as an alliance having you set -10 KOS for regressive imperialist collaboration with a political entity we wish destroyed. We agree on next to nothing and likely never will. At this point I'd probably be shocked (and a little bit insulted) to read you posting anything but frenzied and frothing at the mouth denouncement of any public statement I made in any medium whatsoever. So yes Rodj Blake, you telling me I am wrong about CVA bullying standings from small entities is par for the course. In PIE's case since you were a founder member of the CVA and always used their claimed space for refuge and income when the going got too tough in empire it is no surprise YOU never got asked to set a standing you didn't agree with but I'm pretty damn sure you did abide by the CVA red list in Providence all the same. And that red-list involves a great many entities that you never likely had contact with before. But like I say, you and CVA are so close to be indistiguishable politically. Take the case instead of the many hundreds of entities who came to Providence as "neutrals" and found themselves aggressing the freespacers of the Star Fraction simply because the CVA had put our alliance name on a central red list and told lies about us being "pirates" in the Citadel channel. They didn't feel they had a choice, they felt obliged to follow the standings and "help out" against "hostile" when the CVA called. Regardless of the fact that shooting at these "hostiles" (from neutral) completed something of a fait accompli for all concerned. So no Rodj Blake. Do not come here with your lies and revisionism. You are exposed and bankrupt presently. You convince very few with your tawdry fantasies of the happy-clappy everybody is safe (as long as they condone slavery and political submission) Providence of yesteryear. Best you go back to arguing that anchoring system blockade units is not a hostile act in the other thread. Just to confirm you are in fact wrong. CVA has never forced anybody to set anybody else red nor will it ever I expect. As a member of the CVA it is almost expected you will tell bare-faced lies on the IGS. I'm glad you have chosen not to disappoint. True Knowledge
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.04.18 06:55:00 - [42] Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 18/04/2010 06:55:07 Originally by: Merdaneth I am currently docked at the Black Mansion. I fired a few shots at a NMG Heretic blocking the gate to let him know I wanted to pass. Other NMG members were oddly and utterly silent on local comms. Perhaps they need to adjust their transmitters? Which part of "If we are not home, it's likely that you may be safe (be sure and take other entities into account). However, fair warning, NMG operates NBSI, and are actively training our academy at the moment" didn't you understand?
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.04.18 08:21:00 - [43] Originally by: Erichk Knaar Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 18/04/2010 06:55:07 Originally by: Merdaneth I am currently docked at the Black Mansion. I fired a few shots at a NMG Heretic blocking the gate to let him know I wanted to pass. Other NMG members were oddly and utterly silent on local comms. Perhaps they need to adjust their transmitters? Which part of "If we are not home, it's likely that you may be safe (be sure and take other entities into account). However, fair warning, NMG operates NBSI, and are actively training our academy at the moment" didn't you understand? I sort of read at as: "come by anytime and don't be afraid to shoot our pilots, since they need the practice and they are going to shoot you anyway" was that wrong? Also, I was not aware that your particular brand of NBSI forbids pilots to talk on local comm channels. I thought that ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 15:33:00 - [44] Originally by: Furb Killer Not everyone can have such, uhm, interesting career switches as you have. I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you trying to claim somehow that I haven't always been a freespace revolutionary fighting for the cause of revolution and political freedom in new eden? Perhaps you are confusing me for somebody else. Quote: I dont represent anyone, besides myself. Which is also why i have my alliance and corp tickers disabled, since it wouldnt add anything to enable them. Well its not quite so simple is it. As you suggested I looked up your name and found you associated with Tread Alliance, an entity that earned its -10 status from the Star Fraction for firing on Free Captains (from neutral) with no warning or diplomatic interaction, simply because you were flying with the Slavers of the CVA and their creatures in the I-RED alliance. This puts you in the category of a CVA "pet" brought to Providence to shoot their political enemies to help them bulk out the imperialist defenses around the G-5/KBP pipes. Quote: I dont have any special political ideas besides that i believe in NRDS and like to promote it, instead of destroying it. I dont own slaves if you are wondering that. So you believe that NRDS is best promoted by supporting a monolithic Amarrian nationalist power that supports slavery and the expansion of Amarrian Imperial law into the frontier. From that I believe you have made the internal choice to view the surrender of personal independance a fair exchange for the "safety" that CVA military used to provide those who followed their laws. In essence you are arguing that a house slave in the villa of an Amarrian slaver is better off than a rebel in the woods outside because the slave is protected by the slaver's household guards given free roam inside the kitchens and domestic quarters. Your argument is that NRDS can only word with submission to a strong tyrannical authority that decides who must do what and as such I refute it utterly. Quote: I previously already explained my personal interests, but i will do so again. While I never really understood (or still understand) most of SFs decissions, which is also why i here ask for clarification since they seem to be random to me, I always applauded you for sticking to (some of) your principles and staying NRDS, unlike your well known friends. Which is another thing about SF i dont understand, but that is probably just me. The problem is you are a house slave of the CVA asking a free fighter to explain "freedom". And from your perspective I will freely admit that freedom is dirty, messy, inexact and frankly dangerous. It involves imperfect individuals making imperfect arrangements and cooexisting in an environment where you must think with your wits and conduct diplomacy with every stranger you see. I understand why it terrifies you. I really do. But then you are conditioned to toiling in the house of the "good master" who protects you, provides a wall around the courtyard where you work, who clothes you and makes all the decisions what are quite scary to make. He provides you your red list, your blue list, tells you who is good and who is bad and only asks that you obey his every command as price for your evening meal and sleeping pallet. People get used to slavery. You have become conditioned to it. I know that freedom worries you immensely and you fear the absence of the "good master" will require you to deal with other people who are not cowed into similar submissive thought patterns that you can understand. Quote: However what i see lately is that SF is throwing their principles away for the sake of comfort, which disapoints me. But what you cannot say. Is that SF is "hypocritical" to our principles. You have never given the impression of understanding our principles and without that knowledge how can you provide meaningful critique? Better you simply admit your ignorance and ask. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 15:52:00 - [45] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 18/04/2010 15:55:27 As a note to the bashing bishop (using yellow text to highlight lies doesn't make them true) Originally by: Archbishop 1. Fails to provide free transit rights for anyone but yourselves. How can we "fail" in something we have never claimed to do? I advise the pernicious prelate to try reading our founding principles again and see if he can find us committing to becoming a police force and dominating others with our standings regime. Quote: 2. Doesn't investigate the admission of slavery. We did. We asked the Ushra'khan to as well. They investigated they found it was simply unwise local boasts by hot-headed pilots in KBP local with no foundation in reality. But I imagine since reading seems such a difficult accomplishment for the kibitzing curate we can forgive him this failure of engagement with the thread. Quote: 3. Allows a NBSI entity to continue to control space and shoot everyone else. Allows. Hmmm, by which he means that we don't force others to adopt their standings to ours and unify a red list that we'll enforce with fire and sword if its deviated from. Sounds a bit like we're being accused of failing because we aren't standings enclosurists like the CVA. But unlike the CVA we have done our bit for freespace radicalism here. We have defended our right to free transit wherever we choose by showing our willingness to fight and fight hard if these rights are opposed and denied. So we have succeeded in bringing an example to the daylight, a template if you will for how corporations and organizations can best ensure their own freedoms through direct action and creditable threat in space. Concepts I'm sure go right over the head of the empty-headed ecclesiast in my quotes sadly. After all, being an officer in a corporation with no signficant capability in space does rather limit the capacity for mutual military respect and weaken the position at negotiations. As indeed does being on record for the last five years as a tongue-drooling lickspittal of the Amarrian Imperialists in Providence who were happy to harbour any kind of pirates and NBSI raiders just so long as they sounded "Amarr Victor!" at the right times in parades and kept their piracy, ransoming and extortion rackets outside of the borders of Providence. Remember Garst Tyrell priest? We do. I suspect the summit does also. So 3 strikes out for 3 accusations. Not a good start. True Knowledge
Syyl'ara Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.04.18 17:56:00 - [46] I think the larger and relevant point here is that since you can't even agree on whether or not you can trust each other enough to have diplomatic relations demonstrates that any attempt to engage in them would produce about as useful a result as this waste of bandwidth we're all looking at right now.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 17:58:00 - [47] Originally by: Syyl'ara I think the larger and relevant point here is that since you can't even agree on whether or not you can trust each other enough to have diplomatic relations demonstrates that any attempt to engage in them would produce about as useful a result as this waste of bandwidth we're all looking at right now. Lets not confuse Daisho with PIE. Daisho have a presence in space and have conducted negotiations with us. PIE on the other hand are utterly worthless and present no value in discussion whatsoever. The waste of bandwidth is generally PIE pilots trying desperately to appear relevant in an political situation which is rapidly rendering their "big brother" CVA as meaningless as they are. True Knowledge
Syyl'ara Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.04.18 18:14:00 - [48] Yes, this seems to have found its way to the wrong thread.
Mirxa's Slave	Posted - 2010.04.18 19:12:00 - [49] Jade... We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 19:15:00 - [50] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Jade... We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards. I care nothing for the opinions of people who are too frightened to stand up and speak with their own identities. True Knowledge
Mirxa's Slave	Posted - 2010.04.18 19:20:00 - [51] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Jade... We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards. I care nothing for the opinions of people who are too frightened to stand up and speak with their own identities. Lamentably, simply impugning the character of those who raise the issue isn't going to make it go away.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 19:21:00 - [52] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 18/04/2010 19:22:40 Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Lamentably, simply impugning the character of those who raise the issue isn't going to make it go away. I have no idea who is raising the "issue" through your lips though. I prefer to know your "masters" affiliations to better understand the bias before replying substantively to anything you say. True Knowledge
Mirxa's Slave	Posted - 2010.04.18 19:26:00 - [53] Originally by: Jade Constantine I have no idea who is raising the "issue" through your lips though. I prefer to know your "masters" affiliations to better understand the bias before replying substantively to anything you say. I find it charming that you evaluate the validity of any point based on who said it.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 20:04:00 - [54] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave I find it charming that you evaluate the validity of any point based on who said it. Its called personal responsibility and consequence for your deeds. Welcome to the world of Star Fraction politics and being expected to stand up for what you believe in. The fact you are hiding your identity suggests either you are ashamed of it, or using a fake ID to make dishonest argumentation for malicious purposes. Neither alternative persuades me to take you seriously. True Knowledge
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.18 20:21:00 - [55] Edited by: Furb Killer on 18/04/2010 20:22:22 I cant be bothered to reply to all your points, since it is pretty much all random propaganda brought by someone who seems to be a bit mad (as understatement) and doesnt really enjoy useful replies but rather random flames and obvious lies, however one point: Quote: o you believe that NRDS is best promoted by supporting a monolithic Amarrian nationalist power that supports slavery and the expansion of Amarrian Imperial law into the frontier. Rather than then by supporting and napping as many nbsi alliances you can find without having the balls to attack nbsi alliances. That is kinda hypocrite (you wanted to hear that word i believe).
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.18 20:22:00 - [56] Originally by: Jade Constantine Its called personal responsibility and consequence for your deeds. Many people might mistake it for bias. I notice you have continued to fail to address my point.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 20:28:00 - [57] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave I notice you have continued to fail to address my point. You haven't made any. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 20:31:00 - [58] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 18/04/2010 20:30:52 Originally by: Furb Killer I cant be bothered to reply to all your points... Thats because you have nothing to say. Your master did all the thinking for you and now you are feeling alone and afraid without his orders. True Knowledge
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.18 20:57:00 - [59] Allow me to remind you: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards. You could have saved both yourself and the reader a substantial ammount of time if you had discussed this initially.
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.18 21:01:00 - [60] Originally by: Jade Constantine How can we "fail" in something we have never claimed to do? I advise the pernicious prelate to try reading our founding principles again and see if he can find us committing to becoming a police force and dominating others with our standings regime. So you now admit you have never been for the "cause" of free space an actualy state of existence for anyone but yourself. After all since you've always advocated people fight for themselves this becomes even more apparent. In retrospect we can now say with our own affirmation you have never been about the grand concept of "free space" rather you have just been about free space for yourself. You've never intended anyone else to be "free" to travel anywhere they want. This is actually very revealing Jade thank you. Quote: We did. We asked the Ushra'khan to as well. They investigated they found it was simply unwise local boasts by hot-headed pilots in KBP local with no foundation in reality. But I imagine since reading seems such a difficult accomplishment for the kibitzing curate we can forgive him this failure of engagement with the thread. Given the close vote of your membership it sure doesn't look like everyone believes it's a false boast. Beyond that point though you've never addressed your own relationship to a well known slave owner. How do you justify your personal romantic involvement with someone who has been known to torture and execute slaves while at the same time claiming to dislike slavery? It certainly seems hypocritical. Quote: Allows. Hmmm, by which he means that we don't force others to adopt their standings to ours and unify a red list that we'll enforce with fire and sword if its deviated from. Sounds a bit like we're being accused of failing because we aren't standings enclosurists like the CVA. But you are. Every action you've taken is to seek to force others who don't agree with your point of view to follow your desires. You don't seem to realize that picking up the sword against people who willingly lived in Providence under it's rules was basically forcing them to adopt your beliefs. You didn't give them a "choice". Indeed they always had the choice to leave or stay in the first place. Your forcing your "will" on them by the sword thus oppressed their free choice. Quote: But unlike the CVA we have done our bit for freespace radicalism here. We have defended our right to free transit wherever we choose by showing our willingness to fight and fight hard if these rights are opposed and denied. So we have succeeded in bringing an example to the daylight, a template if you will for how corporations and organizations can best ensure their own freedoms through direct action and creditable threat in space. It's a great template... if you don't mind oppressing people to get what you want and acting like the neighborhood bully all the time. I look back at your encounters in Mito and your camping KD in stations for weeks on end until many of their pilots up and quite the pod forever (a great accomplishment I'm sure). I recall you once saying "They can surrender properly or quit I don't care". Wishing pilots who had attained capsuleer status a life without such ability seems quite harsh for someone who in the same breath claims capsuleers are Gods does it not? It sure seems that way to me. I now see the truth of the Star Fraction. You are not about free space at all. Free space in and of itself is a noble concept (as long as Amarrian law is upheld). You're nothing about free space your all about yourself. That explains how you can run backroom deals with groups that behave in ways you totally disagree with. Have you considered you would probably not have been KOS to CVA (and everyone else) if you'd never attempted to extort CVA and attacked PIE over the Mamet 500? Again you were trying to force your will on others. Not much difference. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 21:01:00 - [61] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Allow me to remind you: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards. You could have saved both yourself and the reader a substantial ammount of time if you had discussed this initially. Who is "we"? True Knowledge
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.18 21:08:00 - [62] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Mirxa's Slave I find it charming that you evaluate the validity of any point based on who said it. Its called personal responsibility and consequence for your deeds. Welcome to the world of Star Fraction politics and being expected to stand up for what you believe in. The fact you are hiding your identity suggests either you are ashamed of it, or using a fake ID to make dishonest argumentation for malicious purposes. Neither alternative persuades me to take you seriously. She belongs to a corporation and an alliance... is it possible perhaps you do not address her point because it's uncomfortable for you to admit it's true? You have a long history of avoiding difficult questions by insulting those asking them instead of simply admitting you were wrong. In this case the person asking this question has an alliance she is a member of (if not represents). Or perhaps Jade are you suggesting that people should only be allowed to speak if they "back it up in space" with a sword and gun? I realize the anarchist focus on violence is your #1 objective here but really. How sincere do you really look advocating "free space" for all when you're basically telling people "fight for your life or shut up". You don't look sincere at all instead you look more like a bully then a revolutionary. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 21:20:00 - [63] Originally by: Archbishop Or perhaps Jade are you suggesting that people should only be allowed to speak if they "back it up in space" with a sword and gun? No surprise to see you defending the "right" for the coward to cloak their identity and smear from the shadows really. True Knowledge
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.18 22:32:00 - [64] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Archbishop Or perhaps Jade are you suggesting that people should only be allowed to speak if they "back it up in space" with a sword and gun? No surprise to see you defending the "right" for the coward to cloak their identity and smear from the shadows really. I see someone who is a member of a corporation and an alliance. Obviously that is hardly "hiding in the shadows". It seems you have a habit of trying to smear those who ask you difficult questions in a vain attempt to avoid those questions. Obviously this is an avoidance tactic you use to hide yourself from answers you are ashamed to give as you realize they will expose the true "Jade Constantine" to the universe. A talented debater such as yourself shouldn't have to resort to such tactics when faced with difficult questions. Hiding from the reality by claiming everyone is a "slave" or a "stalker" is hardly the sign of someone who is assured about their position. Instead it is the sign of someone who is very insecure and is psychologically "hiding" from the truth. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.18 22:42:00 - [65] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Allow me to remind you: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards. You could have saved both yourself and the reader a substantial ammount of time if you had discussed this initially. Who is "we"? Ah, so now we have a new excuse not to answer. Will I ever get a straight answer here? All of IGS is watching...
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.18 23:03:00 - [66] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Allow me to remind you: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards. You could have saved both yourself and the reader a substantial ammount of time if you had discussed this initially. Who is "we"? Ah, so now we have a new excuse not to answer. Will I ever get a straight answer here? All of IGS is watching... I notice you haven't answered MY question. True Knowledge
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.04.18 23:04:00 - [67] Originally by: Merdaneth I sort of read at as: "come by anytime and don't be afraid to shoot our pilots, since they need the practice and they are going to shoot you anyway" was that wrong? Also, I was not aware that your particular brand of NBSI forbids pilots to talk on local comm channels. In that case, no, carry on, and thanks for contributing to the training effort. Hopefully our stations are stocked with your ammo of choice, as we will happily sell it to you. Not broadcasting on local communication channels has more to do with the discipline inherent in a militaristic org such as ours. Not trying to be unfriendly, just the way we generally do things.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.18 23:13:00 - [68] Actually, I did: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave All of IGS is watching... Come now, anyone would think you had something to hide...
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.19 18:03:00 - [69] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Actually, I did: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave All of IGS is watching... Come now, anyone would think you had something to hide... Actually you didn't. I asked who is the "we" you are claiming to speak for. True Knowledge
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.19 20:21:00 - [70] Originally by: Jade Constantine Actually you didn't. I asked who is the "we" you are claiming to speak for. It's a shame you cant answer such a simple question without resorting to avoidance strategies like this one. I assume that you don't run Star Fraction like this, though I have to confess that I find the idea quite amusing.
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.19 22:34:00 - [71] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave It's a shame you cant answer such a simple question without resorting to avoidance strategies like this one. I assume that you don't run Star Fraction like this, though I have to confess that I find the idea quite amusing. This is a familiar Jade tactic Mirxa... when someone asks a question she finds may cause an "inconvenient truth" about her corporation or herself to be revealed she does one of several things. 1. Attempt to slander the author of the question or question their identity claiming they are a "stalker" or whatever paranoid identity she can assign. 2. Ignore the question entirely and dance around it with piles of spin. 3. Start name calling, names like "swine", "insect" and "dog" are among her personal favorites. This is a long standing (five years at least) tactic of hers so I would't expect an honest answer from Jade. Believe me everyone in Eve is familiar with Jade and her confrontational avoidance style of answering questions. You can just be comfortable knowing everyone sees through her and realizes the truth. Jade is incapable of admitting she made a mistake, in fact I can only recall one occasion where she has admitted one... and she has never been questioned about it since... thus indicating the truth does work sometimes. It's unfortuante she lets her pride get in the way of common sense in the face of overwhelming evidence. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.19 23:01:00 - [72] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Jade Constantine Actually you didn't. I asked who is the "we" you are claiming to speak for. It's a shame you cant answer such a simple question without resorting to avoidance strategies like this one. I assume that you don't run Star Fraction like this, though I have to confess that I find the idea quite amusing. Why are you finding it so difficult to answer the simplest question I asked you about who the "we" is that you mentioned? Its almost like your are embarrassed about your identity in some way. True Knowledge
Dewgong	Posted - 2010.04.19 23:19:00 - [73] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Jade Constantine Actually you didn't. I asked who is the "we" you are claiming to speak for. It's a shame you cant answer such a simple question without resorting to avoidance strategies like this one. I assume that you don't run Star Fraction like this, though I have to confess that I find the idea quite amusing. Why are you finding it so difficult to answer the simplest question I asked you about who the "we" is that you mentioned? Its almost like your are embarrassed about your identity in some way. Why is it so hard to figure out that by "we", she is talking about any and every single being in New Eden? Everyone from the newest pilots to the oldest, slaves to CEOs, etc.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.19 23:20:00 - [74] Originally by: Dewgong Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Jade Constantine Actually you didn't. I asked who is the "we" you are claiming to speak for. It's a shame you cant answer such a simple question without resorting to avoidance strategies like this one. I assume that you don't run Star Fraction like this, though I have to confess that I find the idea quite amusing. Why are you finding it so difficult to answer the simplest question I asked you about who the "we" is that you mentioned? Its almost like your are embarrassed about your identity in some way. Why is it so hard to figure out that by "we", she is talking about any and every single being in New Eden? Everyone from the newest pilots to the oldest, slaves to CEOs, etc. Oh you are saying she's simply insanely flapping her gums and claiming to speak to everyone at the same time and using the holy font of cloaked identity to persuade the summit of her providence. I thought as much of course but I was too polite to say so. True Knowledge
Dewgong	Posted - 2010.04.20 00:30:00 - [75] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Dewgong Originally by: Jade Constantine Why are you finding it so difficult to answer the simplest question I asked you about who the "we" is that you mentioned? Its almost like your are embarrassed about your identity in some way. Why is it so hard to figure out that by "we", she is talking about any and every single being in New Eden? Everyone from the newest pilots to the oldest, slaves to CEOs, etc. Oh you are saying she's simply insanely flapping her gums and claiming to speak to everyone at the same time and using the holy font of cloaked identity to persuade the summit of her providence. I thought as much of course but I was too polite to say so. It's not like every single person interested in an answer is going to ask. As an assumption, the majority people typically wait for someone else to ask the question. I for one would like to know the answer.
Fridarey Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.20 04:18:00 - [76] Originally by: Dewgong It's not like every single person interested in an answer is going to ask. As an assumption, the majority people typically wait for someone else to ask the question. I for one would like to know the answer. You know there wasn't actually a question right? That slave character made a statement and didn't ask a question. Sheesh, you amarrians are so stupid.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.20 06:36:00 - [77] Originally by: Archbishop in fact I can only recall one occasion where she has admitted one... and she has never been questioned about it since... This was my original point: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. Lets return to that: Were compromises made to secure a peace deal with Daisho?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.20 14:32:00 - [78] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Archbishop in fact I can only recall one occasion where she has admitted one... and she has never been questioned about it since... This was my original point: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. Lets return to that: Were compromises made to secure a peace deal with Daisho? Are you quite stupid? Its entirely evident that compromises were made with the fact we had a vote on the issue of peace in the first place. There was robust internal discussion that led to a majority of Free Captains supporting a ceasefire on the terms given. This is by definition a compromise since the natural state of play following an attack on SF vessels would be war. This ridiculous question-that-is-not-a-question. Is the reason by the galnet mouthpieces of cloaked identities are not respected in debate. You have nothing to say. True Knowledge
claire xxx Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.20 14:56:00 - [79] As the captain of the ship that was destroyed by the Daisho fleet I'd like to point something out to all the Naysayers. This peace between the Daisho Syndicate and The Star Fraction has been one of cooperation and growing trust since both alliances reset each other to blue status. In fact, early this morning (in KBP) the Daisho Syndicate CEO asked me to open a cyno for his alliance so that they could assist us in destroying one of the last remaining -7- POS towers left in the system. Could I have cyno'ed them into a trap? Certainly. Could they have destroyed my ship as it sat there trapped by the cyno field? Most definitely. Did those things happen? NO! What did happen was that two former enemies who have resolved their differences in a peaceful and amicable resolution worked together for a common goal in the betterment of the greater KBP area and the people who live (and/or will eventually live) here. Any other argument or speculation on the matter is, quite frankly, moot. Claire XXX
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.20 15:35:00 - [80] Originally by: Jade Constantine Its entirely evident that compromises were made I'm glad to have finally gotten an answer out of you. Sadly the level of personal abuse you have directed at me is unlikely to win you any new friends. You may care to note throughout the course of this discussion I have tried to remain civil in face of such provocation. I'm glad to see you approched the peace treaty pragmatically. Holding space in Providence is a significant paradigm shift for Star Fraction (and indeed Ushra'Khan). I do hope you can remain true to the principles which make you unique.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.20 15:43:00 - [81] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave I'm glad to have finally gotten an answer out of you. You really need to check your own behaviour. You spent 2 pages doing everything but asking a question. When you employ dishonest debating tactics to go with your dishonest use of a cloaked identity it will not impress those who prefer to discuss matters in the open with clear integrity and reputation on view. Quote: Sadly the level of personal abuse you have directed at me is unlikely to win you any new friends. You may care to note throughout the course of this discussion I have tried to remain civil in face of such provocation. I tell you clearly that your choice of PR mouthpiece is provoking. You are insulting me by using an identity labelled a "slave". It makes me want to kill you when I find out who you are. Your civility is irrelevent and I wish to make no friends from the ranks of those too cowardly to speak directly in their own name and force an "enslaved" capsuleer to do the talking for them. Quote: I'm glad to see you approched the peace treaty pragmatically. Holding space in Providence is a significant paradigm shift for Star Fraction (and indeed Ushra'Khan). I do hope you can remain true to the principles which make you unique. I would have thought that obvious from the beginning of the thread. But though it is true we have not before made a soveignty claim - its hardly a paradigm shift since we have since founding embraced the development of infrastructure for the benefit of commerce and free trade in 0.0. True the collapse of the CVA has given a window of opportunity in Providence, but its a strategic rather than ideological shift that occured here. True Knowledge
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:05:00 - [82] Originally by: Jade Constantine I would have thought that obvious from the beginning of the thread. Now I am confused. I'm infering here that this states you believe you are remaining true to your principles. Yet barely a couple of posts ago you said you were making compromises. Perhaps you can explain to me how this is possible?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:08:00 - [83] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Jade Constantine I would have thought that obvious from the beginning of the thread. Now I am confused. I'm infering here that this states you believe you are remaining true to your principles. Yet barely a couple of posts ago you said you were making compromises. Perhaps you can explain to me how this is possible? See this is why Amarrians get a bad reputation for dishonest debate and mumbling nonsense. You are not confused, you however a dishonest waste of skin. True Knowledge
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.20 18:04:00 - [84] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Now I am confused. I'm infering here that this states you believe you are remaining true to your principles. Yet barely a couple of posts ago you said you were making compromises. Perhaps you can explain to me how this is possible? *ChipMo laughs aloud.. Oh my, has your intelligence implant exploded?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.20 18:31:00 - [85] To use the term debate implies you are willing to discuss thing rather than insult people. Again: Please explain how you can both be holding to your principles and compromise
lucifers widow Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2010.04.20 23:19:00 - [86] So are Star Fraction no longer NBSI or just NRDS when they feel like it ?
claire xxx Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.21 01:02:00 - [87] The Star Fraction is still NRDS.
Mra Rednu Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.21 06:58:00 - [88] Originally by: claire xxx The Star Fraction is still NRDS. Hmm, concord records would say diferent.......
Mazca Lopez Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.21 08:30:00 - [89] Originally by: Mra Rednu Originally by: claire xxx The Star Fraction is still NRDS. Hmm, concord records would say diferent....... Now would be a good time to present some evidence. If anyone was wrongfully shot by any SF pilot they qualify for reimbursement.
claire xxx Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.21 16:45:00 - [90] Originally by: Mra Rednu Originally by: claire xxx The Star Fraction is still NRDS. Hmm, concord records would say diferent....... Mra, 1. As my brother in arms Mr. Lopez pointed out, any star ship captain that is neutral (and loses a ship) to The Star Fraction will be reimbursed for his ship with our apologies. 2. Do accidental shootings happen? Of course they do. Overview/targeting glitches, newer pilots, the heat of combat, and other reasons all separate, or combined, do occasionally make for accidental shootings. However, again, if it happens we do remedy the situation with a letter of apology and reimbursement. 3. I'd like to point out that just because someone appears neutral or blue to you (or someone else) does not mean they appear that way to the combat pilots of The Star Fraction. We set pilots, corporations, and alliances as -10 red based on deliberate aggression against us, as well as for ideological reasons. You (personally) have no real way of knowing who is red to The Star Fraction and who isn't... unless you have some sort of mad hacker skills and are able to break into either, or both, the Concord and The Star Fraction databases. 4. If you have access to the Concord database and believe a neutral starship captain has been deliberately engaged and destroyed by a Star Fraction pilot then please prove it by providing the details. If there's legitimate proof then I, as one of the Directors of The Star Fraction, will gladly send that pilot a formal apology and reimbursement (if it hasn't already been done.) Claire XXX
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.21 21:00:00 - [91] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave To use the term debate implies you are willing to discuss thing rather than insult people. Again: Please explain how you can both be holding to your principles and compromise It's nice to get through a day without being gratuitously insulted for no apparent reason. However I was hoping for an explanation Jade: How did you reconcile Star Fraction's principles and the compromises you had to make to secure this peace deal?
Xina Tutor Amarr Black Arrows Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.04.21 21:12:00 - [92] I would guess Star Fraction is learning that life for a space holding alliance is a little more complex. It will be interesting to see how they fare with this. It would appear on the surface that their long held principles do clash with the necessities of holding space. But I am sure they will adapt and make what compromises they need to survive.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.23 06:34:00 - [93] Originally by: Xina Tutor But I am sure they will adapt and make what compromises they need to survive. Actually, Jade already admitted compromises were made securing the peace deal with Daisho. I was interested in finding out how Star Fraction reconciled the compromises made with their principles. It's worrying that I haven't received an answer yet. I mean, I'm sure they're just busy with the whole running space thing. It's not like they have anything to hide, is it?
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.23 06:52:00 - [94] Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 23/04/2010 06:55:17 I always wonder why the same question gets asked when the answer is publically available. i know these folks can read, since they are posting. well I am making the assumption that their pod interface isn't all coloring book pictures... ******************************** www.eve-chatsubo.com A long term Role-Play, Fiction and EVE storyline community.
Xina Tutor Amarr Black Arrows Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.04.23 07:08:00 - [95] Well to be fair Star Fraction doesn't have a lot of choices. As a free captain I am sure they are tempted to simply fly where they wish and start dropping towers in E-Y, and... well... we know what. Unfortunately they can't threaten sovreignty, which is a little limitting. Does not stop them simply using the space as they will I suppose. Let's be honest here. Star Fraction and Ushra'Khan have at least fought many times in Providence. But who in space is this Daisho anyway. They are arrogant only because they are assured their boundaries by a greater power. My suggestion is to drop sovreignty, Jade, which is a joke anyway, and fly where you wish. And smack anyone who gets in the way.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.23 14:48:00 - [96] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 23/04/2010 06:55:17 I always wonder why the same question gets asked when the answer is publically available. i know these folks can read, since they are posting. well I am making the assumption that their pod interface isn't all coloring book pictures... This a new answer avoidance strategy, although I see you are still clinging to insulting the questioner too. Clearly the original post only covers the particulars of the peace deal. It does not discuss how it meshes into the wider philosophies of Star Fraction. Again: How did Star Fraction reconcile its principles and the compromises made to secure the peace deal?
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.23 15:26:00 - [97] Read Jade's True Knowladge thread; if you want to have a career as anti-SF talking heads you should spend at least a tiny bit of effort to learn your enemy. though I caution that rout...look what it has done to poor Merdaneth. ******************************** www.eve-chatsubo.com A long term Role-Play, Fiction and EVE storyline community.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.23 15:38:00 - [98] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 23/04/2010 06:55:17 I always wonder why the same question gets asked when the answer is publically available. i know these folks can read, since they are posting. well I am making the assumption that their pod interface isn't all coloring book pictures... This a new answer avoidance strategy, although I see you are still clinging to insulting the questioner too. Clearly the original post only covers the particulars of the peace deal. It does not discuss how it meshes into the wider philosophies of Star Fraction. Again: How did Star Fraction reconcile its principles and the compromises made to secure the peace deal? Stop lying you deceitful little worm. I said we'd made one compromise on this deal. And that choosing (ultimately) not to go to formal warfare in response to agression through the process of mature diplomacy and formal membership vote. In the natural state of diplomacy SF consider aggression from blue to be a significant bar to future relations. Hence the need for a formal vote to put aside our collective vengeance in the interests of ongoing relations and focus on the larger goal of removing CVA and their remaining creatures from Providence. This is the same "compromise" as a warrior makes when accepting terms of truce to discuss matters beyond the exchange of weapon fire. For you to suggest we have compromised ideals of the Fraction is precisely the kind of unsupportable and laughable fiction that we've come to expect from Amarrian loyalists on this summit. The peace settlement confirmed the free captain's full independence from territorial claim and asserted our rights to go where we choose. As a "questioner" you deserve to be insulted because you insult the summit with the low standard of your petty manipulations and dishonest argumentation. True Knowledge
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.23 15:48:00 - [99] Originally by: Jade Constantine And that choosing (ultimately) not to go to formal warfare in response to agression through the process of mature diplomacy and formal membership vote. In the natural state of diplomacy SF consider aggression from blue to be a significant bar to future relations. You do realise you just implied that Star Fraction diplomacy up until this point was not mature? Additionally: this was the only compromise? Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.23 15:49:00 - [100] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/04/2010 15:50:13 Originally by: Mirxa's Slave You do realise you just implied that Star Fraction diplomacy up until this point was not mature? No because I didn't you deceitful wretch. Quote: Additionally: this was the only compromise? Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term? As tomahawk as advised you. Learn something of the freespace movement and our agendas before making yourself look (more) foolish. True Knowledge
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.23 16:07:00 - [101] Originally by: Jade Constantine No because I didn't you deceitful wretch. Clearly you do as follows: Quote: In the natural state of diplomacy SF consider aggression from blue to be a significant bar to future relations. This states that normally people that are red to you stay red. Quote: choosing (ultimately) not to go to formal warfare in response to agression through the process of mature diplomacy Here you state that it was mature of you, and rightly so I have to say, to use diplomacy to resolve a trivial difference. However, the second quote clearly contradicts the first. The normal process of Star Fraction diplomacy is not mature as it refuses to acknowledge what you yourself describe as mature diplomacy However, this is to distract from the my question. I note again you have chosen not to answer it. Let me repeat: Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.23 16:22:00 - [102] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: Jade Constantine No because I didn't you deceitful wretch. Clearly you do as follows: Quote: In the natural state of diplomacy SF consider aggression from blue to be a significant bar to future relations. This states that normally people that are red to you stay red. Quote: choosing (ultimately) not to go to formal warfare in response to agression through the process of mature diplomacy Here you state that it was mature of you, and rightly so I have to say, to use diplomacy to resolve a trivial difference. However, the second quote clearly contradicts the first. The normal process of Star Fraction diplomacy is not mature as it refuses to acknowledge what you yourself describe as mature diplomacy However, this is to distract from the my question. I note again you have chosen not to answer it. Let me repeat: Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term? Have you stopped telling lies yet? True Knowledge
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.23 16:32:00 - [103] Originally by: Jade Constantine Have you stopped telling lies yet? I wasn't aware it was even possible to lie in a question. Again, not answered. Again, let me repeat: Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term?
D melanogaster Minmatar The Fruit Flys	Posted - 2010.04.23 22:54:00 - [104] Originally by: Jade Constantine Have you stopped telling lies yet? When Jade has been caught in her own words she generally regresses to name calling and spitting. This means that you are right and she is wrong, or at least make a mistake with her words (which is easy when you type as many as she does). You will not get an answer to your question but can feel comforted in the fact that you have made a valid point.
Nefher Zhila Amarr Khanid Provincial Vanguard	Posted - 2010.04.24 03:53:00 - [105] Originally by: Jade Constantine Have you stopped telling lies yet? Have you? Your ramblings all over IGS with all the hypocrisy associated with your sentences have made you into quite the clown, a little amusement to those with the intelligence to see beyond your facade. However I must admit that the ôWheat fractionö makes you due justice. Not one concise answer to any question that you know full well puts forth the many weaknesses and truths for what is, in matter of fact, nothing more than an anarchist organization with a piracy touch here and there and a knack for not building a dammed thing worth remembering. Be sure to ignore me at your will, I will certainly not give you the credit to allow such a persona to blabber some more incoherent communications. Khanid Loyalist,Bahadir of Family Zhila. Former member of the 13th Royal Khanid Regulars, proud member of the khanid provincial Vanguard.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.24 06:57:00 - [106] Originally by: Nefher Zhila Not one concise answer to any question that you know full well puts forth the many weaknesses and truths for what is, in matter of fact, nothing more than an anarchist organization with a piracy touch here and there and a knack for not building a dammed thing worth remembering. You seem to be stumbling over your words a little and failing to make much sense. None of the anonymous insult proxies and cloaked identities apparent in this thread have demonstrated anything much beyond the desperate straits of the Amarrian Nationalist movement. And to answer your misunderstandings on the issue of what the Star Fraction builds I recommend you follow the link the True Knowledge in my signature. Approach with an open mind and you will find much to surprise you. True Knowledge
Svenjabi Xiang Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.24 07:04:00 - [107] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave This states that normally people that are red to you stay red. From this point on, you are wrong. Why you are wrong is an internal matter to the Star Fraction, its members and to the parties involved. You are not privy to these discussions. I do not feel any compulsion to describe them to you. They aren't your business. To date, no such discussions have been opened with Fidelas Constans. No such discussions are planned. At the present time, none would be entertained. Clearly, you have some reason to continue being involved in this discussion.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.24 09:36:00 - [108] Clearly the peace deal between Daisho and Star Fraction is a matter of public discussion - If not then why state the details on this summit? There are a few points that are not clear, however. I am simply asking some questions in the spirit of clarification. So once again, let me repeat: Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term?
Roderz Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.04.24 10:11:00 - [109] I find it funny that everyones overlooked the fact that SF signed an agreement before this incident happened, so much for flying where you want and freespace an all. Hypocrits the lot of them.
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.24 11:00:00 - [110] Originally by: D melanogaster Originally by: Jade Constantine Have you stopped telling lies yet? When Jade has been caught in her own words she generally regresses to name calling and spitting. This means that you are right and she is wrong, or at least make a mistake with her words (which is easy when you type as many as she does). You will not get an answer to your question but can feel comforted in the fact that you have made a valid point. I tend to agree with the Minmatar D Melanogaster... you have made your point very well. Jade has used multiple variations of her "inconvenient truth answering system" in an attempt to avoid what is truly a very inconvenient truth exposing the Star Fraction. 1. She has called you names. 2. She has accused you of being someones "slave" and accused you of having no identity yourself. 3. She has accused you of lying while at the same time showing no "evidence" that you are in fact lying. 4. She has ignored the facts she has provided and pretended they don't exist. 5. She has resorted to "see you in space" war baiting comments. In the mind of someone with an ego the caliber of Jade Constantine it's important to realize it's nearly impossible for her to actually admit the truth when it conflicts with her fantasy version of reality. In the history of the Star Fraction we have found them claim to fight for freespace and support the right of free travel everywhere. Yet we've also seen several facts come to light recently which seem to cloud that fantasy reality she's so carefully constructed and have in fact come right out and proven it false. After several years of fighting "for freespace rights" we were just recently told the Star Fraction does not fight for anyone nor have they ever claimed to. Thus it's safe to conclude their "cause" isn't really some "cause" but an excuse. They've already admitted they will do shady deals in smoke filled backrooms with groups that totally oppose every aspect of freespace if it suits them (this recent "peace treaty"). Jade in this thread has admitted "one compromise" was made this time. This leads us to ask how many compromises in the past have they made. The answer is quite obviously many as we've seen them crawl into bed with slavers, embrace as "friends" closed space advocates and ignore pirates who are actually oppressing people while shooting at others who clearly aren't oppressors just loyalists to a government. While I'm sure those pirate allies of theirs are also the result of their now famous "compromises" and "backroom deals" the general public now sees what many of us have known for a long time. I would suggest in the end it isn't so much about "compromise" with the Star Fraction as "business as usual". You see I no longer am under the "spell" of the lofty words of Jade Constantine that there is some kind of "cause" at the root of their actions. As a loyalist Amarrian I have a cause and quite clearly my own desires and wishes matter little in terms of that cause and my duty to God and Empire. The Star Fraction on the other hand have no problem completely ignoring their "cause" when it's inconvenient... hence the INCONVENIENT TRUTH of their actions. How dedicated to a cause is a group that will do a backroom deal with someone who opposes that cause? Obviously not very dedicated. That's my point, this isn't a cause, it's an "excuse" for violence. As we look at the history of the Star Fraction they've made a living basically declaring war on others and destroying things. They've never built anything for the good of anyone in the Eve cluster in their entire existence. They aren't fighting "for" anyone or anything but themseleves. Don't be brainwashed by the lofty rhetoric of their CEO that they have some great cause. It's hypocrisy, dishonesty and rhetoric that when swept away show them for what they are. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.24 11:38:00 - [111] Some people seem to be incapable of reading a relatively simple agreement, I'll repeat it and, hopefully, bring this thread back to some semblance of topicality: Originally by: "Daisho SyndicateûStar Fraction Treaty" Formal agreement of mutual space usage and transit between The Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate û the alliances agree that neither party will attempt to restrict the movement rights of the other in any system in Eve space. Star Fraction and Daisho pilots will travel wherever they choose in Providence and the former KBP pocket û including the systems KBP, B-WPLZ, E-YCML, T-UO0T, and Y9-MDG. The B-WPLZ system will be shared and open for resource development with SF and Daisho pilots free to dock, trade, rat, mine, and whatever else they want to do in the system. Anchoring towers is permissable with consultation (basically avoid high value moons for mining purposes). E-Y, T-U, Y-9 systems will be open for transit and navigation but SF pilots are respectfully asked to refrain from bounty-hunting SanshaÆs in the area since these are an important income source for the Daisho Syndicate community and there is after all, plenty of alternative ratting income in B-W, KBP, YWSO etc. Completing Escalations originating elsewhere in space is accepted. ItÆs important to note that Star Fraction pilots do not travel in nullsec freespace to annoy or irritate our neighbours or to share intel on blues or neutrals. We will cooperate in the destruction of reds and are happy to help our friends destroy mutual reds. Neither Daisho Syndicate nor Star Fraction officers or members will attempt to ôorderö or otherwise ôdemandö action from captains of the other organization and will respect free transit rights at all times. Daisho Syndicate will formally apologize for the destruction of ClairXXXÆs Myrmidon class Battlecruiser in B-W system and reimburse the full value of the loss. This agreement represents a binding settlement between Daisho Syndicate and the Star Fraction but will need ratification by a majority vote of the free captains of the Fraction before it can enter formal agreement. Until ratification occurs and is communicated to Daisho Syndicate management it is understood and expected that conflict continues and no additional losses will be addressed in reimbursement or penalty claims hereafter. The treaty deals with everything that was discussed and agreed, and was ratified by both Daisho Syndicate and the freecaptains of the Star Fraction. Reference has been made to a previous agreement. This previous agreement was less formal and in no way placed limits on the transit of Star Fraction pilots, indeed quite to the contrary. Daisho Syndicate, to their credit, recognised that they had breached this agreement and hence entered into peace negotiations that have clarified and made formal the agreement. The main issue of this agreement is the total and unlimited recognition of free transit by Star Fraction pilots through all systems administered by Daisho Syndicate, and indeed the entirety of space in New Eden. That principle has been reaffirmed quite clearly. Reaffirmed because it was never, for a nanosecond, conceded. The details of the agreement then deal with free usage of resources in various systems and our freecaptains voluntarily refraining from utilising resources in other systems. Unlike in the CVA's 'Providence Holder Coalition' none of this was imposed on the freecaptains of the Star Fraction from above. The freecaptains voted on it and voluntarily accepted this. Had they not wished to, the war would have continued. What amazes me is that people can baldly state that they loathe violence and yet shout and scream when someone refrains from using violence to settle a dispute. That seems to resemble hypocrisy to me. The Star Fraction's principles remain intact. We will defend out interests with due means. That includes justified violence and meaningful diplomacy. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Darveses DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.24 11:39:00 - [112] Originally by: Archbishop I tend to agree with the Minmatar D Melanogaster SURPRIIIIIISE! --- The Providence Gazetteer Star Fraction YouTube Channel
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.24 13:11:00 - [113] Originally by: The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction's principles remain intact. So now we are being told there was no compromise? Only a few days ago we were told: Originally by: Jade Constantine Its entirely evident that compromises were made with the fact we had a vote on the issue of peace in the first place. I find this contradiction confusing. Furthermore, I still await clarifaction on the extent to which Daisho will will be adopting Freespace
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.24 13:24:00 - [114] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction's principles remain intact. So now we are being told there was no compromise? Only a few days ago we were told: Originally by: Jade Constantine Its entirely evident that compromises were made with the fact we had a vote on the issue of peace in the first place. I find this contradiction confusing. Furthermore, I still await clarifaction on the extent to which Daisho will will be adopting Freespace You really should have someone take a look at that Intelligence implant you know. There is something seriously wrong with your reasoning and logical abilities.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.24 13:43:00 - [115] Originally by: ChipMo You really should have someone take a look at that Intelligence implant you know. There is something seriously wrong with your reasoning and logical abilities. Perhaps if you are so confident of your reasoning you could explain the contradiction rather than resort to a personal insult. Perhaps you could even answer the question which you have so adroitly dodged: Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term?
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:02:00 - [116] Edited by: ChipMo on 24/04/2010 14:02:29 Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: ChipMo You really should have someone take a look at that Intelligence implant you know. There is something seriously wrong with your reasoning and logical abilities. Perhaps if you are so confident of your reasoning you could explain the contradiction rather than resort to a personal insult. Perhaps you could even answer the question which you have so adroitly dodged: Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term? Fine, I will indulge your stupidity, this had better put a stop to your incesant whingeing though! To your first point, principles vs concessions. Our principles were met in our terms with Daisho, they accept we are free to travel where we like when we like. The consessions Jade refers to has nothing to do with our principles as the Cosmopolite has already pointed out to you... In answer to your new question: No. Daisho do not believe in the principles of Freespace, the long term is exactly that L O N G T E R M. We will maintain good relations with Daisho and show them the advantages of FreeSpace which we hope they will adopt. They are willing to open their space to those who indulge diplomacy and this is a good step in the direction of Free Space. ChipMo shakes his head & mumbles.. "like being a ***ing primary school teacher, honestly".. walks away in disgust at the thought fellow capsuleers can be so profoundly dense.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:18:00 - [117] Originally by: ChipMo In answer to your new question: No. Daisho do not believe in the principles of Freespace, the long term is exactly that L O N G T E R M. We will maintain good relations with Daisho and show them the advantages of FreeSpace which we hope they will adopt. They are willing to open their space to those who indulge diplomacy and this is a good step in the direction of Free Space. So, by your own admission Star Fraction only cares about opening space up for itself. Thank you for making that clear.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:23:00 - [118] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave So, by your own admission Star Fraction only cares about opening space up for itself. Thank you for making that clear. No that is not what I said.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Audit Services Inc	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:25:00 - [119] As an Empire dwelling pod pilot with experience albeit limited, in the frontier zones I find the approach that Daisho and The Star Fraction has breached to be truly interesting, and far far more beneficial in many terms for the corporations that venture out there. Firstly I want to see if I can explain the current situation as I see it in the hope that I will be corrected if I'm wrong. - The space of Star Fraction is NRDS, the free captains won't shoot you unless you shot them first. - The space of the Daisho Syndicate is NBSI, so if you don't have diplomatic standings with them they will shoot on sight. -Star Fraction captains have suitable standings to access and dock in most systems of Daisho space. Star Fraction will not police or protect neutrals that come across hostiles in their own space as they feel it's up to individuals to protect themselves. Could you confirm associated fees in the stations that you now control. Good luck in this duel(dual?) venture and I'll try and watch from a safe distance. View The Eve Industrial Organiser Site
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.24 15:46:00 - [120] Originally by: ChipMo No that is not what I said. I'm afraid it is exactly what you said: You acknowledged that no immediate attempt had been made persuade Daisho to change their rules of engagement. Clearly iit follows that the only concession Star Fraction were interested in obtaining from Daisho was the ability for Star Fraction pilots, and Star Fraction pilots only, to move freely through Daisho space. Unless you care to prove me wrong by demonstrating evidence of how you have convinved Daisho to change?
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.24 16:24:00 - [121] The following is exactly what ChipMo said: Originally by: ChipMo In answer to your new question: No. Daisho do not believe in the principles of Freespace, the long term is exactly that L O N G T E R M. We will maintain good relations with Daisho and show them the advantages of FreeSpace which we hope they will adopt. They are willing to open their space to those who indulge diplomacy and this is a good step in the direction of Free Space. No more, no less. I know that the example of the three stooges of Amarrian paramilitarism û Archbishop, Blake and Merdaneth û has taught you to abuse language and indulge in distortions and misleading paraphrases but it really will not do. The treaty dealt with the relationship between the Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate and in particular the principle of freedom of movement and resource exploitation and development. It is not appropriate in a treaty between equals to engage in attempts to force a particular ideology on the other party. There is no need or indeed any desire for such a vain enterprise. Does diplomacy stop there? No, we continue to talk on all manner of subjects. Speaking of diplomacy, I want to deal with the suggestion, bruited about by Amarrians and their lickspittles as if it is holy writ, that 'compromise' is a dirty word signifying surrender of principles and capitulation of one's interests to another. The plain fact is that it is not necessarily so. Certainly, if one compromises on one's principles and ideals that is a capitulation. But compromising on the essence of principles and ideals is not the same thing as compromising with others on actions, such as the conduct of resource exploitation or the logistics of infrastructure development or many similar practical matters. Debates about principles and ideals as they relate to the Star Fraction are typically rather synthetic when it comes to criticisms from the usual suspects. An artificial situation is conjured up (or a real situation is distorted to fit the purpose) and by a sort of arid and empty algebra of irrational numbers the mendacious calculator will attempt a QED amounting to the hoary old stock formula: "They are liars and hypocrites because I say they are liars and hypocrites and it is outrageous to suggest that I am in my turn a liar and a hypocrite." The real trick in a principled life is to determine what means will best bring about the desired principled ends, with the choice of means determined by those ends. The Star Fraction has long been committed to diplomacy before violence with those who respect diplomacy. The basic working environment of diplomacy is one where each party is willing to compromise on some element of its starting position in order to achieve a settlement conducive to the principles of each party. Compromise on actions, not ideals, is the essential requirement of diplomacy. Those that abjure compromise in all circumstances are those who repudiate diplomacy by default. It is, ultimately, no surprise that justifiable and mutual compromise on actions is being portrayed as shameful by those who supported the previous regime in slaver Providence. After all, it fell because of a failure of leadership, a failure of politics and a failure of diplomacy. I have seen CVA-led Providence Holders Coalition in its full martial panoply, united and led tolerably well, and there is no way that military power would have fallen as swiftly as the CVA-failed Providence Holders Coalition did. Ultimately, our critics are deeply conflicted, and no surprise either, the truth is that these events only reaffirm our principles, not undermine them. They reaffirm our principles with regard to free movement and the exploitation and development of resources. They reaffirm our principles with regard to our NRDS RoE and the standings of others. They reaffirm our committment to diplomacy as a reasonable alternative to force. They reaffirm that we do not hold space, only infrastructure. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Black Necris Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.04.24 17:22:00 - [122] Ain't it amusing how they say we betray our beliefs just because we have diplomacy with other entities whose agenda might be different than ours. Yet i fail to remember any of them trowing any rocks at CVA when they where dark blue with IAC, or worked with Goonswarm. I guess being an hypocrite its not a sin. Magnanimous and giggling lordship Black Necris Archbishop for the New and Improved Church of Providence (NICHUP) "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.24 20:50:00 - [123] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction's principles remain intact. So now we are being told there was no compromise? Only a few days ago we were told: Originally by: Jade Constantine Its entirely evident that compromises were made with the fact we had a vote on the issue of peace in the first place. I find this contradiction confusing. Furthermore, I still await clarifaction on the extent to which Daisho will will be adopting Freespace Indeed I also find it very confusing... at least I did until I realized the Star Fraction has no principles thus there is nothing to compromise. Any organization that would oppose holding and restricting space then cutting backroom deals with groups doing so, any group that would claim to oppose slavery yet crawl into bed with slavers and even set them blue, any group that would claim all the various things the Star Fraction has claimed over the years yet turn around and completely contradict them in clear living-color hypocrisy... well they seem to have no principles at all. Originally by: ChipMo To your first point, principles vs concessions. Our principles were met in our terms with Daisho, they accept we are free to travel where we like when we like. The consessions Jade refers to has nothing to do with our principles as the Cosmopolite has already pointed out to you... In answer to your new question: No. Daisho do not believe in the principles of Freespace, the long term is exactly that L O N G T E R M. We will maintain good relations with Daisho and show them the advantages of FreeSpace which we hope they will adopt. They are willing to open their space to those who indulge diplomacy and this is a good step in the direction of Free Space. . I'm very curious about this. In the past you've lept right into military action against groups that don't believe in freespace. Likewise we've seen you attempt extortion against groups to get what you want. Why now suddenly are you changing your methods when as you've claimed elsewhere you've had five years of overwhelming successes against your enemies? Your definition of "principle" is interesting to as you appear to state it's freespace. How does negotiating where you can and can not hunt and setup facilities advance the cause of freespace? Clearly you are NOT getting freespace with your "peace treaty" thus you compromised. As your so-called "principle" is freespace that means you compromised your principles. Originally by: TheCosmopolite The treaty dealt with the relationship between the Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate and in particular the principle of freedom of movement and resource exploitation and development. It is not appropriate in a treaty between equals to engage in attempts to force a particular ideology on the other party. There is no need or indeed any desire for such a vain enterprise. So the Star Fraction believes in "the bully wins" and "the weak perish" ideology then? After all while your fantasy world of everyone fighting for their right to freespace is certainly amusing it's hardly realistic. You've never stopped trying to force your ideology on others before why stop now? In fact in the past the CVA was much more powerful then the Star Fraction yet you repeatedly declared war on them. Originally by: TheCosmopolite They reaffirm our principles with regard to free movement and the exploitation and development of resources. Your principles allow for the limitation of rights to rat pirates and deploy structures? I noticed your "treaty" has a few limitations in it so obviously while "free movement" is important clearly "exploitation and development" is not? In other words you clearly compromised your so-called "principles" then announced your hypocrisy by press-release so we could all see your backroom deal in action. Well done Star Fraction. Archbishop
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.24 21:54:00 - [124] Originally by: Archbishop So the Star Fraction believes in "the bully wins" and "the weak perish" ideology then? After all while your fantasy world of everyone fighting for their right to freespace is certainly amusing it's hardly realistic. You've never stopped trying to force your ideology on others before why stop now? In fact in the past the CVA was much more powerful then the Star Fraction yet you repeatedly declared war on them. Read the True Knowledge of the Star Fraction (linked in my sig) see if you can understand some of it. True Knowledge
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.25 12:35:00 - [125] The Principles of the Star Fraction are quite clear and quite intact. In the first instance the ur-principle, as it were, of the Star Fraction is the core ideal of anarchism: Anarchists believe that violence has no proper place in social relations, that is in the interactions between individuals and groups of individuals, and it should therefore be removed from all social relations by whatever means is most efficient and practical. This ur-principle is the principle of non-coercion. To put it in another, even more fundamental way, we believe in treating people as we would have ourselves treated. Now, from this ur-principle other principles flow, thus: Society should be the organisation of free individuals for mutual and maximum benefit for each individual, which we call anarchy. Anarchy is achieved when such organisation is freely-entered into by all individual participants. For organisation to be freely-entered into, violence or the threat of violence cannot be used to compel participation. The freedom, that is autonomy, of an individual should not be infringed unless and until that individual uses violence or the threat of violence against another individual who has not used violence. If an individual has violence or the threat of violence used against them, they are entitled to use the most efficient and practical means for lifting this violence or threat. If the most efficient and practical means of lifting violence or its threat is an opposing use of violence it is entirely legitimate to use such violence for that purpose. From these general principles, the foundational principles of the Star Fraction have been derived and elaborated, and can be found under the heading Political Philosophy of the Star Fraction in the New Eden Encylopedia. For the benefit of those interested some questions that commonly arise are answered in the same entry. From these principles general and specific the Star Fraction derives its ends and means. Our longstanding approach to conduct in space, diplomacy, resource exploitation, development of infrastructure and many other things beside can be clearly drawn from these principles. So then we have the long commitment of our organisation to a 'not red, don't shoot' rules of engagement for our pilots. This NRDS RoE has been maintained by us as an alliance since our foundation and by our founding corporation, Jericho Fraction, since its foundation. So then our belief that a third-party has no right to impose particular relationships between other parties on those others, and that independence in relationships with others is vital. So then our long-held belief in freespace, that is the principle that space cannot be 'owned', and that free movement through space and the exploitation of freely-available primary resources in space should be possible for anyone who chooses, anywhere they choose. So then our belief in diplomacy and its desirability where it is practical and meaningful coupled with our determination to defend ourselves and our interests with force if necessary. All these principles and ideals have been reaffirmed by recent events. The truth as regards certain others is crystal clear: If their enemies engage in meaningful and open diplomacy, they will smear it as a 'backroom deal'. If their enemies find that a resort to force is necessary to oppose violence, they will smear it as an 'obsession with war' and complain that there was no diplomacy. They want it all ways. They are hypocrites. For myself, I am comfortable defending the principles of anrchism and the Star Fraction against low smears and base lies. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.25 13:48:00 - [126] My contention that Star Fraction is only interested in Freespace for its own pilots is broadly correct then. You confirm it here: Originally by: The Cosmopolite So then our belief that a third-party has no right to impose particular relationships between other parties on those others, and that independence in relationships with others is vital. So then our long-held belief in freespace, that is the principle that space cannot be 'owned', and that free movement through space and the exploitation of freely-available primary resources in space should be possible for anyone who chooses, anywhere they choose. Why: you admit that you have no intention of forcing people to adopt your worldview. It follows that you simply can't expand Freespace beyond the areas you "own". At no point did I say Star Fraction were hypocrites. Clearly you aren't: You are quite open here about the internal inconsitencies in your philosophy here.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.25 16:21:00 - [127] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave My contention that Star Fraction is only interested in Freespace for its own pilots is broadly correct then. No, it is not.
Dame Death Minmatar Trust Doesn't Rust Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.04.25 16:44:00 - [128] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave My contention that Star Fraction is only interested in Freespace for its own pilots is broadly correct then. You confirm it here: Originally by: The Cosmopolite So then our belief that a third-party has no right to impose particular relationships between other parties on those others, and that independence in relationships with others is vital. So then our long-held belief in freespace, that is the principle that space cannot be 'owned', and that free movement through space and the exploitation of freely-available primary resources in space should be possible for anyone who chooses, anywhere they choose. My veiws alone not U'ks or tdr's etc etc etc. Right not sure how this'll come across but its what i veiw plus after smapling a few of these plantside side bars I think it needs to be said. Of course SF (or any combat group) are gonna put their pilots in front of the rest of new eden because of the effort they put into making SF'f (or anyones) goals come true. Eliza "Dame Death" Mariska Logs of a Brutor
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.25 18:43:00 - [129] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Anarchists believe that violence has no proper place in social relations, that is in the interactions between individuals and groups of individuals, and it should therefore be removed from all social relations by whatever means is most efficient and practical. Yet violence seems to be the #1 method your alliance uses. Your CEO is quick to trumpet "meet me in space" and imply that violence is the only solution you understand. Is she then in conflict with your statement above? If several groups band together to help one another and form an alliance, if those groups develop rules to regulate conduct (much as your own group regulates your members conduct in regard to NRDS) does that not then indicate it's a free choice and thus mean it should be free of the use of random violence? I look at Providence for example where no corporation was forced to stay there and use the CVA KOS list. This is much the same as you saying no member of the Star Fraction is required to stay and use NRDS as a combat rule. Just as pilots are free to leave the Star Fraction so were they free to leave Providence and as long as they didn't pirate innocents they were in fact still allowed safe travel in Providence. How are those two choices any different? Staying in Star Fraction or staying in Providence? Both are a free choice made by individuals for their own best interests. This seems very confusing. Quote: Society should be the organisation of free individuals for mutual and maximum benefit for each individual, which we call anarchy. So it's an "organization" which seems to imply it can take the form of a government if all participants agree to such an organization? Quote: Anarchy is achieved when such organisation is freely-entered into by all individual participants. How then are those who freely support a government (say the Caldari loyalists in Mito for example) any different? After all they made the free choice. Quote: For organisation to be freely-entered into, violence or the threat of violence cannot be used to compel participation. Your own alliance used the threat of violence (extortion) during the Mamet 500 incident to attempt to compel CVA to participate in your belief that the slaves should be freed. Likewise we have seen multiple occasions over the years of the Star Fraction using violence or the threat of violence subjegate people to their viewpoint when those victims had freely chosen another viewpoint. Quote: The freedom, that is autonomy, of an individual should not be infringed unless and until that individual uses violence or the threat of violence against another individual who has not used violence. Perhaps you can explain the preemptive attack by the Star Fraction on various loyalist organizations of various empires when they had not previously used violence against you. Quote: If an individual has violence or the threat of violence used against them, they are entitled to use the most efficient and practical means for lifting this violence or threat. I will agree with this statement. Quote: If the most efficient and practical means of lifting violence or its threat is an opposing use of violence it is entirely legitimate to use such violence for that purpose. I will agree with this statement. Quote: So then our belief that a third-party has no right to impose particular relationships between other parties on those others, and that independence in relationships with others is vital. Yet we've seen time and time again the Star Fraction interject themselves as a third party (as in the Mamet 500 incident) in an attempt to force a particular outcome to a situation. These past events seem completely contradictory to what you're saying here. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.25 18:44:00 - [130] Originally by: ChipMo No, it is not. I have made an effort to provide evidence for my contention based upon the questions you and other Star Fraction pilots have answered for me. Please provide counter evidence to support your rebuttal.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.25 20:34:00 - [131] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: ChipMo No, it is not. I have made an effort to provide evidence for my contention based upon the questions you and other Star Fraction pilots have answered for me. Please provide counter evidence to support your rebuttal. You made an effort to manipulate and misconstrue our words and have failed. No rebuttal is required, let alone "evidence".
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.25 23:56:00 - [132] Originally by: ChipMo No rebuttal is required Yet you attempted one earlier: Originally by: ChipMo No, it is not. And, indeed, before that: Originally by: ChipMo No that is not what I said. And before that your approach was to personally insult me Originally by: ChipMo There is something seriously wrong with your reasoning and logical abilities. I have never attempted to misconstrue your words, merely highlighted them. It is entirely up to you to defend them: Tell me why it is not the case that Star Fraction is only interested in Freespace for its own pilots.
Svenjabi Xiang Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 01:54:00 - [133] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: ChipMo No rebuttal is required It is entirely up to you to defend them: Tell me why it is not the case that Star Fraction is only interested in Freespace for its own pilots. Actually, it's not up to us to defend anything to you, personally or collectively to Fidelas Constans. As I pointed out to you earlier, beyond the notification of hostilities cessation as a member of the general public, The Star Fraction doesn't owe you, a member of a kill-on-importunity entity, anything. The only entities to whom we bear any responsibility have been informed with the original press release as to the current status of the dispute. While we appreciate that others may have a comment to make about this agreement, and consider each in turn, your input on this matter has as much bearing on the Star Fraction as your space-presence does.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.26 09:24:00 - [134] Originally by: Svenjabi Xiang Actually, it's not up to us to defend anything to you, personally or collectively to Fidelas Constans. If you are unwilling to defend your own words, and in many cases these quotes have been drawn direct from your own principles, I would infer that you don't really believe in them. If you are unwilling to detail counter evidence, it suggest that you accept that Star Fraction is only interested in Freespace for its own pilots
Mazca Lopez Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 11:20:00 - [135] Q and A session for the lazy! Will you attack all territorial alliances? No. Only those those that bring hostility to us and are completely unreachable by diplomatic and philosophical conversation from the dead-end street of xenophobic territorialism; there is much value in debating political paradigms with the leaders of alliances. We believe have good arguments and persuasive military and economic heft to employ in such debates. The freespace, posthumanist geist is a powerful force in and of itself.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 12:14:00 - [136] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: ChipMo No rebuttal is required Yet you attempted one earlier: Originally by: ChipMo No, it is not. And, indeed, before that: Originally by: ChipMo No that is not what I said. And before that your approach was to personally insult me I made no rebuttal. I simply stated that what you had written was not a true reflection of the words you quoted in each case. This is clear to anyone who reads them as such there is nothing I need add. I did not insult you I recommended you get your intelligence implants looked at because I honestly did not believe someone could be so dense as to honestly believe the things you have been saying, and so profoundly misunderstand anything that a Free Captain says... yet you continue to spew forth your ridiculous nonsense. I do not know if it is just your stupidity, perhaps you are just trying to make some deceitful ploy. Originally by: Mirxa's Slave If you are unwilling to defend your own words, and in many cases these quotes have been drawn direct from your own principles, I would infer that you don't really believe in them. It suggests no such thing. Our words do not require a defense from us, they are our words and they say what they say. You quoting snippets here and there and then making up fanciful stories around them doesn't mean a thing. Anyone who comes here and reads those words can clearly see what they say for themselves. Originally by: Mirxa's Slave If you are unwilling to detail counter evidence, it suggest that you accept that Star Fraction is only interested in Freespace for its own pilots Again with the bull**. Get a **ing grip woman. I have two words to say in response to this: Operation Castrato.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.26 14:02:00 - [137] Originally by: ChipMo I made no rebuttal. I simply stated that what you had written was not a true reflection of the words you quoted in each case. I am simply asking for you to elaborate why you think it is not a true reflection of the words quoted. Originally by: ChipMo Again with the bullcrap Is exactly the sort of answer that is causing problems. It doesn't illustrate your understanding, and can easily be interpreted as quite offensive. Again, I feel bound to remind you that I have remained entirely civil throughout this discussion and only asked for clarification on certain issues. Clarification that I am still waiting for.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 14:10:00 - [138] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Again, I feel bound to remind you that I have remained entirely civil throughout this discussion and only asked for clarification on certain issues. Clarification that I am still waiting for. Your ignorance is far more infuriating than any insult. I already gave you an example of The Star Fraction fighting for other peoples freedoms. O - p - e - r - a - t - i - o - n, C - a - s - t - r - a - t - o.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.26 14:25:00 - [139] Originally by: ChipMo Operation Castrato. Perhaps you would care to enlighten us then as to what this achieved?
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 14:54:00 - [140] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Perhaps you would care to enlighten us then as to what this achieved? *ChipMo drops his head with a sigh.. Looks up to address the terminal, Frankly no. You clearly haven't the slightest grasp of what our organisation is about or what we have been doing for the past 6 years. Any further communication with you is pointless. Go find out for yourself, perhaps you will learn a little of Freedom while your at it.
Mazca Lopez Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 15:04:00 - [141] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: ChipMo Operation Castrato. Perhaps you would care to enlighten us then as to what this achieved? The correct question in this context would be, 'what was the intention of that'. The loss of providence is no measure of the faith or beliefs of CVA or it's pets either.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:01:00 - [142] Originally by: ChipMo You clearly haven't the slightest grasp of what our organisation is about or what we have been doing for the past 6 years. This would be why I am asking questions. What better way to find out than to ask directly - particularly since you think: Originally by: ChipMo There is something seriously wrong with your reasoning and logical abilities. Unfortunately, persistent failure to answer questions that have been asked of you seems to be leading to misunderstandings.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:14:00 - [143] Originally by: The Cosmopolite No more, no less. I know that the example of the three stooges of Amarrian paramilitarism û Archbishop, Blake and Merdaneth û has taught you to abuse language and indulge in distortions and misleading paraphrases but it really will not do. The treaty dealt with the relationship between the Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate and in particular the principle of freedom of movement and resource exploitation and development. It is not appropriate in a treaty between equals to engage in attempts to force a particular ideology on the other party. There is no need or indeed any desire for such a vain enterprise. Does diplomacy stop there? No, we continue to talk on all manner of subjects. Speaking of diplomacy, I want to deal with the suggestion, bruited about by Amarrians and their lickspittles as if it is holy writ, that 'compromise' is a dirty word signifying surrender of principles and capitulation of one's interests to another. The plain fact is that it is not necessarily so. Certainly, if one compromises on one's principles and ideals that is a capitulation. But compromising on the essence of principles and ideals is not the same thing as compromising with others on actions, such as the conduct of resource exploitation or the logistics of infrastructure development or many similar practical matters. Debates about principles and ideals as they relate to the Star Fraction are typically rather synthetic when it comes to criticisms from the usual suspects. An artificial situation is conjured up (or a real situation is distorted to fit the purpose) and by a sort of arid and empty algebra of irrational numbers the mendacious calculator will attempt a QED amounting to the hoary old stock formula: "They are liars and hypocrites because I say they are liars and hypocrites and it is outrageous to suggest that I am in my turn a liar and a hypocrite." The real trick in a principled life is to determine what means will best bring about the desired principled ends, with the choice of means determined by those ends. The Star Fraction has long been committed to diplomacy before violence with those who respect diplomacy. The basic working environment of diplomacy is one where each party is willing to compromise on some element of its starting position in order to achieve a settlement conducive to the principles of each party. Compromise on actions, not ideals, is the essential requirement of diplomacy. Those that abjure compromise in all circumstances are those who repudiate diplomacy by default. It is, ultimately, no surprise that justifiable and mutual compromise on actions is being portrayed as shameful by those who supported the previous regime in slaver Providence. After all, it fell because of a failure of leadership, a failure of politics and a failure of diplomacy. I have seen CVA-led Providence Holders Coalition in its full martial panoply, united and led tolerably well, and there is no way that military power would have fallen as swiftly as the CVA-failed Providence Holders Coalition did. Ultimately, our critics are deeply conflicted, and no surprise either, the truth is that these events only reaffirm our principles, not undermine them. They reaffirm our principles with regard to free movement and the exploitation and development of resources. They reaffirm our principles with regard to our NRDS RoE and the standings of others. They reaffirm our committment to diplomacy as a reasonable alternative to force. They reaffirm that we do not hold space, only infrastructure. The Cosmopolite Since you seem to have missed the full and detailed rebuttle to all your points thus far. True Knowledge
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:21:00 - [144] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Originally by: ChipMo Operation Castrato. Perhaps you would care to enlighten us then as to what this achieved? Operation Castrato: a Star Fraction operation that even according to Jade Constantine ended in failure. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:28:00 - [145] Originally by: Rodj Blake Operation Castrato: a Star Fraction operation that even according to Jade Constantine ended in failure. I thought you claimed everything I said was false ... or now only when it suits you. If you want to quote my credibility in declaring a failure I imagine that means you will yield to my credibility on declaring our successes. That would be the honest position. Ah, but then you are an Amarrian Nationalist. Honesty is not exactly your forte. True Knowledge
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:50:00 - [146] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 26/04/2010 18:54:41 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake Operation Castrato: a Star Fraction operation that even according to Jade Constantine ended in failure. I thought you claimed everything I said was false ... or now only when it suits you. If you want to quote my credibility in declaring a failure I imagine that means you will yield to my credibility on declaring our successes. That would be the honest position. Ah, but then you are an Amarrian Nationalist. Honesty is not exactly your forte. My point was that if even you admit a lack of success, then things must have been dire indeed for the SF. Although now that I think about it, in the subsequent explanation of SF's failure you blamed your erstwhile allies, so maybe it was the usual level of constant spin after all. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:52:00 - [147] Originally by: Rodj Blake My point was that if even you admit a lack of success, then things must have been dire indeed for the SF. And mine was you double standards. You accept my words of a failure but you doubt them when I declare a success. You can't have it both ways. You are caught on the horns of your own deceit here Rodj Blake. True Knowledge
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:59:00 - [148] Originally by: Jade Constantine Since you seem to have missed the full and detailed rebuttle to all your points thus far. I am confused here. The text you quoted above was in fact originally posted before I made my most recent point. Since you seem to have missed that, let me repeat it here: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave My contention that Star Fraction is only interested in Freespace for its own pilots is broadly correct then. You confirm it here: Originally by: The Cosmopolite So then our belief that a third-party has no right to impose particular relationships between other parties on those others, and that independence in relationships with others is vital. So then our long-held belief in freespace, that is the principle that space cannot be 'owned', and that free movement through space and the exploitation of freely-available primary resources in space should be possible for anyone who chooses, anywhere they choose. Why: you admit that you have no intention of forcing people to adopt your worldview. It follows that you simply can't expand Freespace beyond the areas you "own". Again, I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why this is not the case.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:59:00 - [149] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 26/04/2010 19:01:43 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 26/04/2010 19:01:22 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 26/04/2010 19:01:10 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake My point was that if even you admit a lack of success, then things must have been dire indeed for the SF. And mine was you double standards. You accept my words of a failure but you doubt them when I declare a success. You can't have it both ways. You are caught on the horns of your own deceit here Rodj Blake. Deceit? I'm sure that I'm not the only who's noticed that your favourite tactic when confronted with something that you don't like these days seems to be to throw around accusations of deceit rather than to address the point. Which is quite odd really, given SF's track record where decption is concerned. Double standards? Do you really want to get into a discussion on double standards? Perhaps we should start with your defence of SF ganging with pirates shortly after condeming PIE for possibly flying alongside alleged pirates? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.26 19:08:00 - [150] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 26/04/2010 19:01:43 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 26/04/2010 19:01:22 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 26/04/2010 19:01:10 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake My point was that if even you admit a lack of success, then things must have been dire indeed for the SF. And mine was you double standards. You accept my words of a failure but you doubt them when I declare a success. You can't have it both ways. You are caught on the horns of your own deceit here Rodj Blake. Deceit? I'm sure that I'm not the only who's noticed that your favourite tactic when confronted with something that you don't like these days seems to be to throw around accusations of deceit rather than to address the point. Which is quite odd really, given SF's track record where decption is concerned. Double standards? Do you really want to get into a discussion on double standards? Perhaps we should start with your defence of SF ganging with pirates shortly after condeming PIE for possibly flying alongside alleged pirates? You don't ever make points Rodj Blake, you just keep lying and making false smears while avoiding all comment on your own failures. You have spent five years or more inventing nonsense about the Fraction and watched your own corporation fade to a mere shadow of irrelevance while you have been doing it. Nothing you say has the least value these days, its all as worthless as your reputation in space. True Knowledge

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