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Kiradaman	Posted - 2010.05.23 23:05:00 - [1] Some work needs to be done with high sec, concord and salvage. Here is the story below About 6 of us were in a fleet running missions out of ordion. We had a mission with about 5 gates to it. Part of what we do as im sure most do is loot the items and take the salvage. We however did not get most of our salvage because of broken game mechanics. While we were fighting a person by the name of Lexeara flew around and grabed the salvage from us. We were in high sec so we couldn't employ PvP because of concord. So we lost a few million isk because of this person. I am not about to shoot a buzzard with my navy scorp and have concord come possably destroy because of a broken mechanic. Salvage needs to be locked just like loot so if someone trys to take it we have the right to attack. I find this as a system exploit to grief.
Caimeka	Posted - 2010.05.23 23:20:00 - [2] Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Psycros	Posted - 2010.05.23 23:34:00 - [3] Agree 1000%, as do many, many others. Bad enough that your salvage isn't really yours in CONCORD's eyes - how in God's holy name is it fair that someone can come into your mission space without having that mission themselves???. And then rob you of what you spent ammo, time and possibly risked your neck for? If this is how CCP wants it, then f'in do away with all mission gates and deadspace. What's the point if it you can't even enjoy the loot you worked for? Yeah, yeah, "not WoW in space, blah blah blah", save it, mmkay? Either make it so anyone can steal anything, any time, with no consequences or show some consistency, CCP. You're hacking off a lot of customers unnecessarily, and there will be much newer and better-written games out soon..
Baaldor Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.05.24 01:19:00 - [4] Originally by: Psycros as do many, many others... Yes the throngs of support for this is evident in the assembly hall every time it is proposed. Originally by: Psycros Either make it so anyone can steal anything, any time, with no consequences Yes, they used to steal out of cans with out consequences. Bears screamed for the right to shoot them. They got what they asked for. Originally by: Psycros and there will be much newer and better-written games out soon.. Bye.
FISHANDCHIPS	Posted - 2010.05.24 01:56:00 - [5] Your in a nazy scorp and your crying over a few mill LOL oh ps THE SALVAGE DOESN'T BELONG TO YOU
JordanParey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.05.24 02:27:00 - [6] Link to a thread where they talk about what to do to annoy ninja salvagers [i]2000 B.C. - "Here, eat this root." 1000 B.C. - "That root is heathen, say this prayer." 1850 A.D. - "That prayer is superstition, drink this potion." 1940 A.D. - "That potion is snake oil, sw
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Hand That Feeds	Posted - 2010.05.24 02:45:00 - [7] PvE Tactic for PvP Problem :) Just do what I do, Warp out and leave them with the room agro, if they come back repeat, eventually they will get the idea that you won't protect them by tanking the damage for them.
Kiradaman	Posted - 2010.05.24 03:43:00 - [8] Let me clear something up, I was in a navy scorp. the rest of the people i was with are new so that few million isk is a big deal for them.
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.05.24 04:46:00 - [9] Edited by: Misanthra on 24/05/2010 04:46:21 skip the salvage....about 5 minutes per mission assuming decent skills and salvage tackles. gives more time for missions over a few missions. more rewards, bounties, lp for sale. less of a hit depedning on missions you are getting money wise. don't mission in hubs or systems filled with ninjyas. I run missions for r&d agent standing. get sent to some obscure systems with decent agents actually. Time to wipe the mission (not the motsu lv 4 q 18...but motsu is usually 1 ninjya per mission runner anyway lol), take a break (I AF high lv 2's/low lv 3's till a better ship trained, slow going since the toon spec'd for science learning....doable but time consuming) and wrecks still there when I come back. third option....if grouping this, designated wreck stripper to clean while rest of group kills. Wreck guy still gets paid the bounties and reward, just make sure its someone trustworhty to do fair split. Worst case you and the ninjya's are competing to see who gets more wrecks (have dual boxed and had contests with ninjya's before, my higher skill and salvage tackled ship won lions share lol). if at 50/50....well its 50 you weren't getting before. This is a mini-career that isn't going away.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.05.25 13:41:00 - [10] Originally by: Kiradaman Salvage needs to be locked just like loot so if someone trys to take it we have the right to attack. I find this as a system exploit to grief. No exploit, the salvage is not yours until after you salvage it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.05.25 15:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Kiradaman We were in highsec so we couldn't employ PvP because of concord.
Sniperdoc Caldari Eerie Industries	Posted - 2010.05.25 15:26:00 - [12] Edited by: Sniperdoc on 25/05/2010 15:27:52 I do understand that according to CCP this was intended, but it is also illogical. In the United States, back in the early 1900's when prospectors went to the West to stake their claim on land it was against the law for another prospector to pan on already prospected land. EVE salvaging is pretty much similar. When on a mission, that player is prospecting. It doesn't necessarily mean that SPACE is his, but he spent hard earned ISK and Time to kill those NPCs. Hence, legally, the loot AND salvage should be his. Hell, in Tyrannis they're already nerfing the loot by 30%, so allowing any player to salvage wrecks without consequence is a garbage idea. I can't understand why CCP decided that it should be a game mechanic to allow griefing. Now, I have had non-fleeted salvagers show up in a mission and ASK me to salvage. I politely tell them yea or nae and even pay them some ISK for being polite. If they decide to salvage my wrecks without my permission, I just shoot the wrecks they are salvaging so they waste their own time instead of looking for a new victim. Now, as far as Kiradaman's issue... if you had people with you, why didn't you just have a guy hotseat salvaging (salvaging as the mission was going on)? That would have been a logical solution. But, I do agree the current salvaging legalities are flawed. Drakes ROCK!
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.05.25 15:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Sniperdoc RL analogies are flawed. Indeed they are. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.05.25 15:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Sniperdoc RL analogies are flawed. Indeed they are. QFT
Ti'anla Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.25 16:00:00 - [15] Vote against >.> Seriously, how many sci-fi settings are there with major characters pulling salvage 'illegally' (in the eyes of the people claiming it)? What's EVE trying to be? A sci-fi simulator. 'Seems to me CCP are just trying to simulate one more staple of the genre.
MarkyJ	Posted - 2010.05.25 16:15:00 - [16] Edited by: MarkyJ on 25/05/2010 16:16:45 Hmmm...Just my two isks: 1) You say there were six of you. Okay, you presumably need to be in your navy scorp if you're the highest skilled pilot on grid but out of the other 5 pilots with you did no one think to bring a destroyer/salvagecane? No? Well this is the result. If they did, at least you're getting some profit unless they're doing something wrong in which case ask them to try a faster ship. Maybe ask them to fit for speed so they can reach the wreck(yes, wreck. It's not salvage yet after all...) first. Personally, when I mission with a friend one of us (usually me) is always in a salvage boat for exactly this reason. Its boring but thems the breaks. 2) If he's annoying you using 'broken' game mechanics, annoy him back with some more (apparently) 'broken' mechanics. Suicide gank him! If you can fly a Navy scorpion then presumably you can fit and insure a cheapo gank battleship (or battlecruiser if the budgets really that tight). It might even be profitable for you to go pop. 3) It is not griefing. It would be if they followed you across several systems and did it purely to **** you off but from how you make it sound, you missioned in a random system, got picked out by the prober and decided his sole motive was to make your life a living hell. As it is, they're just after profit. That's why they're doing it. Deny them their profit and they'll leave.
Zwyggy Zythum	Posted - 2010.05.25 16:45:00 - [17] I thought all the cry babies went to STO.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Cruoris Seraphim Exalted.	Posted - 2010.05.25 17:19:00 - [18] Fix concord they magically appear in place within few seconds even if you're in deep deadspace. Fix gate guns they are cheating they shoot everyone regardless who they were shooting at and they cannot possibly know who was shooting who in asteroid field.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.05.25 17:42:00 - [19] The players in high-sec do not like it when others enter their mission pockets and it was stupid of CCP to aggro these player in this way. The change also broke mission running in low-sec. Now you have threads where players wonder how to populate low-sec again. --
eleve	Posted - 2010.05.26 11:02:00 - [20] If we really are going to make some IRL references, this is like the closest one: Someone throws newspaper at the street and walks away, so I can take it and use it in my owen. Hell, I should even go and blame him from littering. The newspaper had only news value to that person, even thought it could be used to light fire. Why this should be any different in eve? They are wrecks ffs.

Brechan Skene	Posted - 2010.05.26 12:11:00 - [21] Edited by: Brechan Skene on 26/05/2010 12:18:56 Edited by: Brechan Skene on 26/05/2010 12:17:55 To Sniperdoc, You like real life examples? Originally by: Sniperdoc Edited by: Sniperdoc on 25/05/2010 15:27:52 I do understand that according to CCP this was intended, but it is also illogical. In the United States, back in the early 1900's when prospectors went to the West to stake their claim on land it was against the law for another prospector to pan on already prospected land. Here is my real life modern day version Ok here goes, here is the statement I had previously made. ô Therefore what you are saying is that there is no example of a conflict/ engagement (a mission) occurring consisting of winner of the conflict/ engagement (the player) and a loser of the conflict / engagement (the NPC) and subsequently a third party (the Ninja) turning up later and salvaging the wrecks for profit without permission from either the designated player or NPC of the conflict/engagement.ö There is a show on Discovery channel called Treasure Quest. The Odyssey Marine Exploration Inc. (OME) is the world leader in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration.Here is their Wikipedia site. I will be using them as the ninja salvager in the example I had previously posted. Odyssey is traded on the NASDAQ Stock Market under the symbol "OMEX". The wreck that was salvaged is called the "Black Swan". In May 2007, the company announced the largest historic deep-ocean treasure recovery of over 500,000 silver and several hundred gold coins, weighing 17 tons, from a Colonial era site code-named "Black Swan." Spain has claimed rights to the treasure, and the case is currently being litigated in US Federal Court. In the above example Spain has been designated the role of NPC because they were the loser of the conflict. Spain has claimed that it is the frigate Nuestra Senoara De Las Mercedes. From the websites of the Nuestra Senora De Las Mercedes it acknowledges that the ship that made the killing blow was from a British Frigate. Therefore this site acknowledges the winner of the conflict/ engagement (the player)as being the English. At this stage they have not yet made any claims for the items retrieved from the wreck. For this example we will acknowledge that the ship, the "Black Swan" is actually the Spanish ship that was destroyed by British war ships. However if the ship is proven not to be the ship it is still a good example of the basic mechanics of ninja salvaging. How does this example affect the way Ninja Salvaging should be handled in this game, especially if we use this real life example as the basis for the mechanic. I will answer some question based on the "Black Swan" scenario. 1. Does the wreck belong to the mission runner A: No. Currently there has been no attempt by Britain to make any claim for the treasure that was retrieved from the site. 2. The Ninja should be criminally flagged to the mission runner. No. See above answer. Also there has been no criminal action been taken by the British Government against the Company or any of its crew. However the Ship and crew was detained by the Spanish Government and later released. But no criminal charges were enforced against the Company or the crew. 3. Does the wreck and whatever is salvageable belongs to the NPC. A: Maybe, but they have more rights than the mission runner. But that is dependent on court action by the Spanish Government. But it is worth noting that they are the only ones that a currently actively seeking ownership of the items that was recovered from the "Black Swan".
DocSniper	Posted - 2010.05.26 12:32:00 - [22] Jeezus... some terrible analogies. The whole Odyssey thing... wrecks that are over 100 years old... mine are usually created BY me and I salvage them within the hour. Then on top of that, there are numerous legalities that are involved with Odyssey going around Salvaging wrecks. Unless it's in International Waters, those wrecks are NOT free game for anyone to "loot". Besides, they're not going in and taking parts they can use and selling them on the free market. What Odyssey is doing is like going on a mission that has an ancient Caldari Station in Caldari space and you going in and looting/salvaging it when there are clear laws that are set aside for "treasure hunters" to notify whatever government is within that wreck's jurisdiction. Anywho... going off track. What it comes down to is that the player on the mission has done all the work, the loot sets the aggro flag, but the wreck does not? Why? If that's the case, they should have just made it so the loot was free to take too. This half and half concept is garbage. Especially since the salvage is more valuable than the loot over 75% of the time. CCP has lots of great ideas that are always half thought out... I mean look at the interfaces of Eve, features that aren't there but should be based on the concept of the game... CCP needs to stop coming up with new stuff and continue to improve what is already in existence.
The AsteroidDrainer	Posted - 2010.06.07 01:56:00 - [23] there should b some timer or other method for the missioner to have the opportunity to salvage the wrecks he /she has put the effort in to killing maybe 1 hour after mission hand in the wreck becomes scan-able but not while the mission is active should u have some slimy little idiot come in and take the salvage that u have worked for
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.06.07 03:13:00 - [24] Edited by: Misanthra on 07/06/2010 03:15:50 Originally by: Zwyggy Zythum I thought all the cry babies went to STO. that game had problems out the starting gate lol. Even the power of being a trekkie could not keep many friends playing. Originally by: The AsteroidDrainer there should b some timer or other method for the missioner to have the opportunity to salvage the wrecks he /she has put the effort in to killing maybe 1 hour after mission hand in the wreck becomes scan-able but not while the mission is active should u have some slimy little idiot come in and take the salvage that u have worked for The cans aren't scannable, its the mission runner...Want your stuff, dual box a wreck cleaner while running the mission, get a maruader or fly gallente drone death where guns more for distanced room aggro. Least you can compete with the ninjya when they find you.
Gibbo3771	Posted - 2010.06.07 07:30:00 - [25] At least once every 3 days a stupid little highsec bear complains about this.
Srialia Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.06.07 08:04:00 - [26] Edited by: Srialia on 07/06/2010 08:04:48 Originally by: Kiradaman Let me clear something up, I was in a navy scorp. the rest of the people i was with are new so that few million isk is a big deal for them. If a few million is a big deal to them, and you're in a navy scorp, then why don't you float them a loan or something? What's a few million to you? In the time it took you to make your crybaby post and follow up on it by reading responses and replying to them, you could have been in-game making the money you lost to the salvagers five times over. I submit that you're the biggest tool in this whole situation. But then, who's really surprised by that?
Dr Syphilis	Posted - 2010.06.07 10:12:00 - [27] Edited by: Dr Syphilis on 07/06/2010 10:12:19 Just shoot the wrecks till he get bored and leaves. Better nobody have it than some poor hobo (I rather **** in his cup than give him a coin).
Galvatine Caldari Dark Materials Mortal Destruction	Posted - 2010.06.07 12:13:00 - [28] waaa waaa Fly a Maurauder, employ a garbage collector. Simple solutions for a simple problem. If you cannot be bothered then dont complain about it.
Sealiah Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Pipe Hitters Union	Posted - 2010.06.09 10:00:00 - [29] Well, if you don't mission in high-end systems you have very little chance of getting ninja salvadged. A solution I prefered and read somewhere was improving AI of the npcs. Improving in a way, that they would cycle targets like sleepers do. Also they should have a very high factor of fire concentration (not like sometimes that there are 10 ships and each ship shoots another person) and the npcs should also stay on target if they deal significant damage to him/her. That way ninja salvaging can be very limited - small ships would get blown by npcs, so ninjas would have to finally invest in big ships. And when they are using big ships they won't be able to salvage as fast and as efficiently. OR you could just shoot the wrecks the ninja tries to salvage. Usually after a few wrecks they get bored and fly away.
Jaron Stirling	Posted - 2010.06.09 13:53:00 - [30] The point is not that the original poster is a "whiner". The point is that those who are ninja slavagers AND their supporters are without honor, ethics, or value to the Human species. These individuals are lazy bums, the equivilant of people who go on welfare, if you want a Real Life analogy, and don't try to EARN their keep but would rather sponge off the hard work of others, as opposed to those who are welfare temporarily until they can find a way, and try exceedingly hard to, to EARN their own way. These lazy, guttertrash s****are too lazy to go out and kill, either in PvP or PvE, and are the bottomfeeders, and they should be considered with less value than what many consider "carebears". Why? Because even "carebears" EARN what they obtain. The guttertrash should openly be outed, and treated with the disrespect they have EARNED, which is ALL they have EVER EARNED. An individual who destroys a vessel of ANY type should be considered the "owner" of the salvage because they EARNED the salvage and until they officially abandon it, it should be considered STEALING should some lazy bum, welfare guttertrash who doesn't want to EARN what they take, come along and take what isn't theirs. Such lazy bum guttertrash should instantly be labeled a Pirate and an Outlaw and be treated accordingly by both Concord and players. Any individual attempting to LIE and DECEIVE others regarding the nature of what is CLEARLY stealing by lazy bum welfare guttertrash is just as dishonorable, unethical, and without value to the Human species. The analogy to treasure seekers salvaging wrecks after both the original owner AND any who may have had a hand in the object becoming a "wreck" having been long since deceased, and therefore no existing claim (ie "abandoned" wreck) is false because we are talking about individuals who (1) still exist and (2) did not officially "abandon" the wreck. The cery existance of "abandon" wreck is evidence of OWNERSHIP of the salvage by those who EARNED the salvage.



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