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Learning skills: the end is near, at last!

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Alias Hentrah	Posted - 2010.07.14 15:08:00 - [631] Sure, the whole thing sounds really nice - I too, would be happy to spend my 3.4M sp, that I spent on learning skills, on something else -, but the whole thing just gives a big wet smelly bag of **** to the game's balance! In real life, you have to learn how to learn, how to concentrate, how to think, how to comminicate (sell yourself) with others; why - oh why?! - wouldn't be the same in a game where you need to learn as much book as much you should in elementary school + high school + university/collage + other schools. It would be easier for new players, yes. And if you get your used sp relocated thats nice too. But the whole thing is no more than a carebear idea. If you don't like the system as it is now, go play WoW, there you can buy your skills as long as you have the money for it.
Ohhh Matron	Posted - 2010.07.14 16:05:00 - [632] Edited by: Ohhh Matron on 14/07/2010 16:04:50 If this speculation comes true then good ol' CCP, always trying to suck up to the new customer with the attention span of a gnat. Existing customers? Who cares, plenty more eager kids that want to pay the same money month after month.
Jasdemi	Posted - 2010.07.14 16:05:00 - [633] Originally by: Alias Hentrah Sure, the whole thing sounds really nice - I too, would be happy to spend my 3.4M sp, that I spent on learning skills, on something else -, but the whole thing just gives a big wet smelly bag of ** to the game's balance! In real life, you have to learn how to learn, how to concentrate, how to think, how to comminicate (sell yourself) with others; why - oh why?! - wouldn't be the same in a game where you need to learn as much book as much you should in elementary school + high school + university/collage + other schools. It would be easier for new players, yes. And if you get your used sp relocated thats nice too. But the whole thing is no more than a carebear idea. If you don't like the system as it is now, go play WoW, there you can buy your skills as long as you have the money for it. EvE =/= RL Games exist to have fun, not sitting in a station for 3 months and playing other games while your character trains learnings. =-=-=-=-= REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS!**
Vee Raa Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.07.14 17:09:00 - [634] Originally by: Jasdemi Games exist to have fun, not sitting in a station for 3 months and playing other games while your character trains learnings. You're doing it wrong.
Vexidious	Posted - 2010.07.14 18:21:00 - [635] Originally by: Vee Raa Originally by: Jasdemi Games exist to have fun, not sitting in a station for 3 months and playing other games while your character trains learnings. You're doing it wrong. There are many (including at least one CCP dev) that would say that he is doing it right.
Vee Raa Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.07.14 18:24:00 - [636] Originally by: Jasdemi Games exist to have fun, not sitting in a station for 3 months and playing other games while your character trains learnings. bolded the important part for you
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.14 18:30:00 - [637] Originally by: Vexidious Originally by: Vee Raa Originally by: Jasdemi Games exist to have fun, not sitting in a station for 3 months and playing other games while your character trains learnings. You're doing it wrong. There are many (including at least one CCP dev) that would say that he is doing it right. He's most deffinately doing it wrong ... if you use the worst training order and dont use implants at all, it takes 46 days for 5/4 from account start. If you plug in some skills to be able to fly something to run up to l2's in, and or mine at near retriever speed, it takes a whooping 3 days longer if you plan your toon a little. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Vexidious	Posted - 2010.07.14 18:44:00 - [638] Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Vexidious Originally by: Vee Raa Originally by: Jasdemi Games exist to have fun, not sitting in a station for 3 months and playing other games while your character trains learnings. You're doing it wrong. There are many (including at least one CCP dev) that would say that he is doing it right. He's most deffinately doing it wrong ... if you use the worst training order and dont use implants at all, it takes 46 days for 5/4 from account start. If you plug in some skills to be able to fly something to run up to l2's in, and or mine at near retriever speed, it takes a whooping 3 days longer if you plan your toon a little. Two things: 1) 46 or so days is still pretty bad for a new player. 2) New players aren't too likely to be have an optimized skill plan from day 1.
Heroldyn Yhamad	Posted - 2010.07.14 18:49:00 - [639] It does not mean that new players need to do nothing for 46 days. They can first train basic skill set for 3-4 days and fly Missions, Mine, do whatever while training the Learning Skills. And quite frankly I don¦t buy that you are all so concerned about the new Players :) Maybe more driven by the interest of a free Stat Boost
Vexidious	Posted - 2010.07.14 20:30:00 - [640] Originally by: Heroldyn Yhamad It does not mean that new players need to do nothing for 46 days. They can first train basic skill set for 3-4 days and fly Missions, Mine, do whatever while training the Learning Skills. True, but basic mining and L1 missions aren't really all that interesting or worthwhile to do for that long, and they won't have the skills for anything else for about 2 months. Originally by: Heroldyn Yhamad And quite frankly I don¦t buy that you are all so concerned about the new Players :) Maybe more driven by the interest of a free Stat Boost Whether or not a person has other motives does not make the new player experience anything other than terrible, nor does it make the learning skills a good idea. Nice try at avoiding the point, though.
Heroldyn Yhamad	Posted - 2010.07.14 20:39:00 - [641] Originally by: Vexidious True, but basic mining and L1 missions aren't really all that interesting or worthwhile to do for that long, and they won't have the skills for anything else for about 2 months. 1.5 months. And really that is not a long time. Especially for new players that need to learn the interface and basic mechanics too. Granted, if they really have a lot of free time in their life and play like 8 hours a day it might be a long time then, - But how many People have a life like that ?.
Vexidious	Posted - 2010.07.14 20:48:00 - [642] Originally by: Heroldyn Yhamad Originally by: Vexidious True, but basic mining and L1 missions aren't really all that interesting or worthwhile to do for that long, and they won't have the skills for anything else for about 2 months. 1.5 months. And really that is not a long time. Especially for new players that need to learn the interface and basic mechanics too. Granted, if they really have a lot of free time in their life and play like 8 hours a day it might be a long time then, - But how many People have a life like that ?. 1.5 months before they can start training the skills required for L2 missions, advanced mining, exploration, or whatever. 2 months is likely a best case scenario for when they will actually be ready to do something more interesting than L1 missions or mining in a frigate, and for many things it could actually take much longer. And even if a person were only to play for 1 hour per day (a ridiculously low number for most MMO players) that would still be around 60 hours on L1 missioning or frigate mining. And trust me, it does not take close to that long for even the dumbest capsuleer to learn everything there is to know about those activities, and become exceptionally bored with them.
Heroldyn Yhamad	Posted - 2010.07.14 20:58:00 - [643] Edited by: Heroldyn Yhamad on 14/07/2010 20:59:05 Originally by: Vexidious 1.5 months before they can start training the skills required for L2 missions, advanced mining, exploration, or whatever. 2 months is likely a best case scenario for when they will actually be ready to do something more interesting than L1 missions or mining in a frigate, and for many things it could actually take much longer. And even if a person were only to play for 1 hour per day (a ridiculously low number for most MMO players) that would still be around 60 hours on L1 missioning or frigate mining. And trust me, it does not take close to that long for even the dumbest capsuleer to learn everything there is to know about those activities, and become exceptionally bored with them. Well then maybe we perceive time differently but in my oppionion 60 hours is not a very long time for "noobiesh" Activities in eve. Also you portrait it like this would somehow shut the skill system down. The player can at any time inject smaller skills in between. Specially since at the beginning you don¦t need the skills at the higher Level. tl;dr: from my point of View 60 days are over soon enough and new players have enough todo within that time that doesn`t require alot of other skills.
Vee Raa Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.07.14 21:03:00 - [644] For some reason i think you're mixing up new characters with new players. Maybe it's just a crusade from Character farmers.
Hainnz Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.07.14 21:04:00 - [645] I think if CCP could reduce the churn in new players (and removing learning skills would be a great first step in doing that), then maybe they could devote more attention to things older characters appear to care more about (on this forum at least). CCP is stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. They can't risk making bold changes to the game without having older characters running riot on the forums about the game turning into Hello Kitty Island Adventures or some nonsense. IMO, CCP is forced to play things very conservatively, and that means new shinies every dev cycle ot two and very little tinkering with core gameplay/sacred cows. It's probable CCP will just hold steady with EVE anyway. After all it has enjoyed more or less continuous, modest growth, with its top heavy population of vets plus alts. Maybe in their next MMO (WoD), CCP will avoid the situation EVE is in now.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.07.14 21:34:00 - [646] 22 pages based on no actual information at all. Well played OP. Well played indeed. 10/10 Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.14 21:39:00 - [647] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 14/07/2010 21:47:14 Originally by: Hainnz They can't risk making bold changes to the game without having older characters running riot on the forums about the game turning into Hello Kitty Island Adventures or some nonsense. I actually think they're overestimating the effect it may have. I don't know if you've ever read the thread about the introduction of tier 2 learning skills - part of old playerbase was ranting about it just like they do now, o.a. "that skilling already was so fast". And still EVE is steadily (but very slowly) growing. There's a principle that the more you invest into a game, the less likely you're leaving when it changes in a way you don't like. That's valid for more things than just games btw. So I don't think there doesn't need to be that much concern about this. In the end we'll all get some SP reimbursed, that can't possibly hurt. Some may grumble and then continue doing what they're always doing. No one will miss the learning skills after a while and no new player will possibly want them back if they read about them. Next to that there's a lot more things that are far more serious than how people would respond to the removal of learning skills that CCP should worry about. Actually it's just a minor thing that hardly effects the day to day gameplay experience at all, only that of new players.
democrities	Posted - 2010.07.14 21:47:00 - [648] I see the mods locked another learning skill thread, though not this one.
Kalliste Maldoran	Posted - 2010.07.15 00:00:00 - [649] HereÆs an idea using others as a base and knowing what I know from playing other RPG games. òRemove the learning skills. òCredit the player with the skill points to assign as they decide. (keeps the Vets happy) òGive each player 50 Stat points to assign to any stats they want with a max at 21. (with +5 implants its max 26 just like it is in the game atm, correct me if IÆm wrong I donÆt have max skills and +5 implants and IÆm at work ) òAs each player starts with most stats at either, 6, 7 or 8 depending on your ancestry or bloodline heritage choices, spending the 50 points you could get 3 skills up to 21 quite easily. òIncrease the learning speed by 10% (same as the learning skill) At New Character creation add a page to set up Stats. When assigning stat point have it show the skill points per hour next to it, for any skills that use this as a primary. And when you hover or select the Stat have it show what kind of skills it will affect. (Combat, trade, industry, leadership, Support skills) This will help the new player decide where he would like to spend the points. Vets will already have an idea on what is best spent where.
migwar The New Era	Posted - 2010.07.15 01:00:00 - [650] I for one didn't even start training learning skills until after the first 25 days or so.. I was to interested in getting into a bigger ship and shooing bigger npcs etc and getting to level III missions when i started.. Bigger was better when I was around back in the day... most new players think wow thats a great big ship, then they see something bigger and wanna be in that.. learning just slows the process of people who play for the visuals and for the pew pew be it PVE or PVP... my 2 cents.
Arkanor Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.07.15 04:45:00 - [651] Edited by: Arkanor on 15/07/2010 04:47:04 Originally by: Vee Raa For some reason i think you're mixing up new characters with new players. Maybe it's just a crusade from Character farmers. Character farmers have an optimized formula for getting new alts trained up the fastest. New players aren't likely to have this. The learning skills are quite simply poor game design. The introduction should be the portion of the game where you are trying to "wow" them, not give them a sense of hopelessness. This is all the learning skills accomplish. Is removing them likely to make anyone quit? No. Is leaving them in going to result in a huge new player turnover? Yes, and we already know it does. Would I like to have my learning SP back? Sure. I would also fully support their removal with no refund whatsoever. They need to go, period.
Lefty Twotimes	Posted - 2010.07.15 18:26:00 - [652] Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 15/07/2010 18:28:15 Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 15/07/2010 18:27:10 Originally by: Kalliste Maldoran òGive each player 50 Stat points to assign to any stats they want with a max at 21. (with +5 implants its max 26 just like it is in the game atm, correct me if IÆm wrong I donÆt have max skills and +5 implants and IÆm at work ) With 5/5 and +5 implant i would be sitting at least 32 probably 33 perception with my maxed out remap. (15 base + 10 skills + 5 implant)* 1.1 learning. Sitting at 30.8 with 5/4 and +4 implant.
Sadian	Posted - 2010.07.15 19:08:00 - [653] Quote: Is removing them likely to make anyone quit? No. I would go.It would signal a radical MIND SET change of game management and players like me can read the writing on the wall. No big deal there are other games to play but I don't play first person shooters for a reason. It would be giving yet another carrot to the something for nothing cookie cutter character crowd who grew up on games like WoW. The next thing that crowd will whine about is how long it takes to train skills to level 4 and 5. Quote: Is leaving them in going to result in a huge new player turnover? Yes, and we already know it does. I can't believe you really have the gall to say that people quit because of learning skills! Lack of PvE content is Eve Onlines real achilles heal and everyone knows it. I might not be so skeptical of what you wrote if you offered some proof. And like someone else said please quit pretending you care about new player retention. YOU want shorter training times for all the skills. That's all there is to any of this. I'm Sadian - and I didn't train learning skills when I first started playing until someone told me I was doing it all wrong
Kalliste Maldoran	Posted - 2010.07.16 01:06:00 - [654] Edited by: Kalliste Maldoran on 16/07/2010 01:08:34 Edited by: Kalliste Maldoran on 16/07/2010 01:06:27 Originally by: Lefty Twotimes Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 15/07/2010 18:28:15 Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 15/07/2010 18:27:10 Originally by: Kalliste Maldoran òGive each player 50 Stat points to assign to any stats they want with a max at 21. (with +5 implants its max 26 just like it is in the game atm, correct me if IÆm wrong I donÆt have max skills and +5 implants and IÆm at work ) With 5/5 and +5 implant i would be sitting at least 32 probably 33 perception with my maxed out remap. (15 base + 10 skills + 5 implant)* 1.1 learning. Sitting at 30.8 with 5/4 and +4 implant. Thanks for that, I had trouble finding out what the starting stats were. That would change the base amount slightly. So that would make the max stat at 28. So we could increase the 50 to 60 (no implant). And the max changed to 28.
Terminal Insanity Minmatar U-208	Posted - 2010.07.16 02:03:00 - [655] Originally by: Chribba Don't forget they will double the starting ISK if you send it to CCP when creating a char. Proof Chribba is both a scammer and a CCP employee. ~ ° ° ° ~ Non-Gameplay Enhancements!
oldmanst4r Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.16 02:30:00 - [656] What I find funny about this thread is all the people prophesying doom and that EVE will turn in to an "instant gratification" game. You know what my friends who don't play EVE say when I tell them I have a skill in my queue that takes 2 weeks to train. They say something along the lines of "OMIGOSH why do you play that game?? TWO WHOLE WEEKS for ONE skill?? I could never wait THAT long." They aren't really hysterical but you know, it's just an example. Removing learning skills is not going to all of the sudden flood the game with noobs in capitals. Originally by: CCP Shadow snip Castration successful. Shadow.
Xorv	Posted - 2010.07.16 02:44:00 - [657] If Learning Skills are so great lets add another skill. We'll call it "Childhood Development" and make it the prerequisite to getting Learning skills and attributes above 5. Takes 6 months to complete the training. That would make EVE so much more fun and add real "depth" to the game! Seriously CCP just get rid of this garbage.
Arkanor Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.07.16 03:30:00 - [658] Edited by: Arkanor on 16/07/2010 03:31:58 Originally by: Sadian please quit pretending you care about new player retention. YOU want shorter training times for all the skills. That's all there is to any of this. I run one account, I have the learnings to 5/4, and stated I would support the removal with no SP refund. So no, you're very wrong. Encouraging players to not play the game their first month is bad design, it adds nothing to the player experience.
Kingofpewpew	Posted - 2010.07.16 10:04:00 - [659] I support this so please remove them CCP... I felt I had to do learning skills in order to compete with others first and before training anything else and it sucks
Urgg Boolean	Posted - 2010.07.16 12:20:00 - [660] I see some people saying that the Learning tree of skills is optional and offers more choices for players. I think this is wrong for a few reasons. 1) The de facto standard when applying to any decent corp is 10 million SP. Getting to that magic number happens much faster if you have trained Learning skills; this does not feel like a choice to me. Furthermore, I have applied for corps that require Learning skills at 5/4, such that if they want recruits to train something to fulfill a role, you won't take forever to train it: mandatory by decree = no choice. 2) The sooner you get to 5/4, the greater the potential time savings, assuming you hang around long enough to train things like Gallente Carrier or Large T2 Guns. When you realize these time savings, you will see that Learning skills are really not a choice, but a necessary step in your planning. It's like saying that warming up the copy machine is a choice : sure you could choose not to warm it up, but it'll make substandard copies... Skills take a very long time; too long in my opinion. I think people kid themselves in terms of this being a satisfying experience. It's not real; you aren't really learning anything. All that really happens is that a timer ticks away and unlocks skills and buffs (etc) based upon how you spend your training time. Real life skills take methodical practice and time, and are definitely the source of pride, feelings of accomplishment, and positive self esteem. My self esteem is not increased, nor do I feel a sense of accomplishment or pride via EvE skills. The only reason I do skills is to unlock cool game features and functionality. The Learning skills only get in the way of that.

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