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baltec1
Bat Country
1724
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:34:00 -
[271] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Having children does cost an eye (no pun, seriously)
I know its wrong but I laughed |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
472
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:57:00 -
[272] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: ...If the victim is an armed criminal...
At this point you are just trolling trolling. If you were to say such a thing inside a female support group for sexual crime victims.... troll troll troll... I'm not gonna discuss anything else with you. You are just a troll.
FACT: most (and it's a large most) firearm assaults are from criminals assaulting other criminals FACT: most (and it's a large most) armed assaults do not imply firearms, rather other kinds of weapons
FACT: most firearm murders are criminals shooting other criminals FACT: most murders do not imply firearms
Now ask yourself why in the USA it's exaclty the opposite.
"We want your help to convince management to develop Incarna into 3rd person shooter dungeon raiding with friendly fire in nullsec space..."
Seriously, Team Avatar? |
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
570
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:58:00 -
[273] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Shameless Avenger wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: ...If the victim is an armed criminal...
At this point you are just trolling trolling. If you were to say such a thing inside a female support group for sexual crime victims.... troll troll troll... I'm not gonna discuss anything else with you. You are just a troll. FACT: most (and it's a large most) firearm assaults are from criminals assaulting other criminals FACT: most (and it's a large most) armed assaults do not imply firearms, rather other kinds of weapons FACT: most firearm murders are criminals shooting other criminals FACT: most murders do not imply firearms Now ask yourself why in the USA it's exaclty the opposite.
Again I like your excellent use of citations. |
Overseer Aliena
Lord of Wars
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:24:00 -
[274] - Quote
I really like how this thread has nothing to do with the shooting in Aurora other than occasionally using a victim for one's propagandist needs. As usual you guys are stellar awesome. Go back to talking about being gangster and Spain or whatever it is you all are bitching about. |
Shameless Avenger
323
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:25:00 -
[275] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Shameless Avenger wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: ...If the victim is an armed criminal...
At this point you are just trolling trolling. If you were to say such a thing inside a female support group for sexual crime victims.... troll troll troll... I'm not gonna discuss anything else with you. You are just a troll. FACT: most (and it's a large most) firearm assaults are from criminals assaulting other criminals FACT: most (and it's a large most) armed assaults do not imply firearms, rather other kinds of weapons FACT: most firearm murders are criminals shooting other criminals FACT: most murders do not imply firearms Now ask yourself why in the USA it's exaclty the opposite.
Dude you have been downgraded from troll to shiptoaster. Sure, every grocery store that has ever been robbed is a criminal? Every citizen that has been car-jacked at gun point... a criminal? That's not even a bad troll... is just shiptoasting.
"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro" ~ The Story of the Ninja |
Shameless Avenger
323
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:28:00 -
[276] - Quote
Overseer Aliena wrote:I really like how this thread has nothing to do with the shooting in Aurora other than occasionally using a victim for one's propagandist needs. As usual you guys are stellar awesome. Go back to talking about being gangster and Spain or whatever it is you all are bitching about.
I wish there were more info on the Aurora incident. I would like some stats as per how many died from wounds from the shotgun, how many from the .40 and how many from the so called "assault weapon". But I doubt those numbers will ever show up.
"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro" ~ The Story of the Ninja |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
472
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:42:00 -
[277] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:Dude you have been downgraded from troll to shiptoaster. Sure, every grocery store that has ever been robbed is a criminal? Every citizen that has been car-jacked at gun point... a criminal? That's not even a bad troll... is just shiptoasting.
Car-jacked at gun point? In Spain? ROTFL!
This is not the USA, chaval. I've spent a lot of time and words trying to tell you how different laws and a different culture produce different crime and different criminals, and all I got from you is trolling... "We want your help to convince management to develop Incarna into 3rd person shooter dungeon raiding with friendly fire in nullsec space..."
Seriously, Team Avatar? |
Shameless Avenger
323
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:46:00 -
[278] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Car-jacked at gun point? In Spain? ROTFL! This is not the USA, chaval. I've spent a lot of time and words trying to tell you how different laws and a different culture produce different crime and different criminals, and all I got from you is trolling...
Don't make a blank statement to provoke a reaction and then come back saying "oh I was talking about Spain only". Troll...
"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro" ~ The Story of the Ninja |
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
570
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:54:00 -
[279] - Quote
Still not seeing those citations. Just gonna have to assume that you are blowing **** out of your ass yet again. |
Shameless Avenger
323
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 21:27:00 -
[280] - Quote
I looked around trying to find more info on the weapons used...
From this article we get that the gunman used the shotgun first, then switched to AR-15, which jammed, and then finished with a handgun.
Most of the media is focusing on the AR and the fact that the gunman was using a high capacity 100-rounds magazine. But nobody actually knows how many rounds were fired with the AR before it jammed. I might have been 2 or 3 rounds for all we know. ARs are known to jam a lot, specially when used with modified after market magazines (I've seen this happen at the range more than once).
The shotgun is another puzzle. Shotgun shells can have hundreds of small pellets (for birds) or one gigantic slug (for deer). Here again, he might have killed a few with it, or might have killed none.
The handgun was first reported to be a glock .40 but later it was corrected to be a Les Baer .45 pistol. If my info is correct (1911 fans correct me if I'm wrong), that holds 8 rounds in the magazine and 1 in the chamber... 9 rounds total. The lethality of the of 45ACP cartridge afaik is about 90% for victims that had only one shot (again, correct me if I'm wrong). From that I honestly believe most of the fatalities were from the handgun.
It was also reported that the gunman was using a tactical vest. I have no doubt he had extra magazines for the 45 in it. I'm not sure if this gun is a "last-shot-hold-open" or not. If it is, it would be real easy and fast even for a novice to change magazines.
Personally, I'm not in favor of any gun-bans AT ALL. But if something is to get banned, lets at least ban the weapon that was most lethal, and not the one that "looked" lethal. Such measure would at least make *some* sense.
Several countries (Brazil for example) have gun laws that restrict civilians from using handgun calibers bigger than 380ACP. The idea is that you can defend yourself, but are less likely to kill. Anybody from Vera Cruz please correct me if I'm wrong.
If you go to Europe, several law enforcement agencies use the 380ACP as the standard issue round. (our Spain friend can comment on this).
Like I said, while I'm against any time of restrictions. Caliber restrictions on handguns do make more sense (1911 fans please don't hate me). And no, I'm not saying it just because I have an itty bitty tiny 380ACP pocket pistol myself. The 380ACP serves a purpose when carrying conceal in 100 degrees Floridian weather, wearing only a t-shirt and short pants.
"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro" ~ The Story of the Ninja |
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1664
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 22:10:00 -
[281] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:I looked around trying to find more info on the weapons used... From this article we get that the gunman used the shotgun first, then switched to AR-15, which jammed, and then finished with a handgun. Most of the media is focusing on the AR and the fact that the gunman was using a high capacity 100-rounds magazine. But nobody actually knows how many rounds were fired with the AR before it jammed. I might have been 2 or 3 rounds for all we know. ARs are known to jam a lot, specially when used with modified after market magazines (I've seen this happen at the range more than once). The shotgun is another puzzle. Shotgun shells can have hundreds of small pellets (for birds) or one gigantic slug (for deer). Here again, he might have killed a few with it, or might have killed none. The handgun was first reported to be a glock .40 but later it was corrected to be a Les Baer .45 pistol. If my info is correct (1911 fans correct me if I'm wrong), that holds 8 rounds in the magazine and 1 in the chamber... 9 rounds total. The lethality of the of 45ACP cartridge afaik is about 90% for victims that had only one shot (again, correct me if I'm wrong). From that I honestly believe most of the fatalities were from the handgun. It was also reported that the gunman was using a tactical vest. I have no doubt he had extra magazines for the 45 in it. I'm not sure if this gun is a "last-shot-hold-open" or not. If it is, it would be real easy and fast even for a novice to change magazines. Personally, I'm not in favor of any gun-bans AT ALL. But if something is to get banned, lets at least ban the weapon that was most lethal, and not the one that "looked" lethal. Such measure would at least make *some* sense. Several countries (Brazil for example) have gun laws that restrict civilians from using handgun calibers bigger than 380ACP. The idea is that you can defend yourself, but are less likely to kill. Anybody from Vera Cruz please correct me if I'm wrong. If you go to Europe, several law enforcement agencies use the 380ACP as the standard issue round. (our Spain friend can comment on this). Like I said, while I'm against any time of restrictions. Caliber restrictions on handguns do make more sense (1911 fans please don't hate me). And no, I'm not saying it just because I have an itty bitty tiny 380ACP pocket pistol myself. The 380ACP serves a purpose when carrying conceal in 100 degrees Floridian weather, wearing only a t-shirt and short pants.
Be mindful that a caliber restriction on handguns would unearth a long argument over the weight versus speed issue of handgun rounds. While the .45 is heavier and thus considered to have more stopping power, it's a lot slower, being subsonic, and has less penetration. That fact that holmes went to either a .45 or a .40, both subsonic rounds, may be what reduced the death toll because these rounds are not well known for going through human targets.
A 9mm is smaller, around the diameter of a .380 too, but much faster. I have seen 9mm go through steel plate and ballistic kevlar that a subsonic round could not.
A .38 Super Comp, around the same bullet size of a 9mm, at 1600FPS will go through body armor up to level 3a. But also, a .460 Rowland, a .45 sized bullet, a little bigger, but in +P+ loadout, also does 1600 FPS.
Stats like this are the reason why we only wore body armor to protect the person we were protecting, not for our own sakes. But otherwise the concept of an "armor piercing bullet", usually delivered by hyperventilating media hoplohphobes, is quite comical.
The .45 and the Glock are "last shot slide lock" but if you are not holding the gun properly or have crap magazines, this does not always work.
Regarding the Beta C mag, they cost around 300 bucks, and in the two times I have seen them in use, they were not very good. Once I saw one in a rifle course of fire where it did jam a lot. And a few years later I saw an attempt at using one iin a machine gun where an "out of battery" detonation occured, blowing the magazine out of the well, in pieces, along with a few pieces of the gun too. I would not use one of these magazines for serious reasons with a borrowed 10' pole. Holme's handlers must have overlooked this as they dressed him up. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1732
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 23:31:00 -
[282] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:Most of the media is focusing on the AR and the fact that the gunman was using a high capacity 100-rounds magazine. But nobody actually knows how many rounds were fired with the AR before it jammed. I might have been 2 or 3 rounds for all we know. ARs are known to jam a lot, specially when used with modified after market magazines (I've seen this happen at the range more than once).
It's more a maintenance thing, I don't think the guy that tried to wield 3 firearms at once has the first clue about weapons maintenance. My M16(A4!) only ever jammed once on me when I put too many rounds in the magazine so it double fed.
Also those high capacity magazines do have a rather crappy track record of reliability
You want high capacity get something belt fed |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1664
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 02:40:00 -
[283] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Shameless Avenger wrote:Most of the media is focusing on the AR and the fact that the gunman was using a high capacity 100-rounds magazine. But nobody actually knows how many rounds were fired with the AR before it jammed. I might have been 2 or 3 rounds for all we know. ARs are known to jam a lot, specially when used with modified after market magazines (I've seen this happen at the range more than once). It's more a maintenance thing, I don't think the guy that tried to wield 3 firearms at once has the first clue about weapons maintenance. My M16(A4!) only ever jammed once on me when I put too many rounds in the magazine so it double fed. Also those high capacity magazines do have a rather crappy track record of reliability You want high capacity get something belt fed
Here, strap your bacon onto this. |
Nicoli Voldkif
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 05:27:00 -
[284] - Quote
Had a much longer post but it got wiped so here is the short version
Legal guns are not used in the majority of "regular" day to day crime in the US according to the FBI
They are however utilized by people who are mentally unstable because we in the US would rather protect the reputation of the mentally unstable then the dozens of people that he may harm. If there is anything that needs to be fixed is that.
Most guns are not for self defense but for other reasons, I have 3 myself and they are 2 historic firearms and 1 .22LR for target shooting. The one historic doubles as a hunting rifle. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1733
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 05:42:00 -
[285] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Shameless Avenger wrote:Most of the media is focusing on the AR and the fact that the gunman was using a high capacity 100-rounds magazine. But nobody actually knows how many rounds were fired with the AR before it jammed. I might have been 2 or 3 rounds for all we know. ARs are known to jam a lot, specially when used with modified after market magazines (I've seen this happen at the range more than once). It's more a maintenance thing, I don't think the guy that tried to wield 3 firearms at once has the first clue about weapons maintenance. My M16(A4!) only ever jammed once on me when I put too many rounds in the magazine so it double fed. Also those high capacity magazines do have a rather crappy track record of reliability You want high capacity get something belt fed Here, strap your bacon onto this.
That would be good for duck hunting... if the ducks were T-rex sized |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
473
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 06:40:00 -
[286] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Car-jacked at gun point? In Spain? ROTFL! This is not the USA, chaval. I've spent a lot of time and words trying to tell you how different laws and a different culture produce different crime and different criminals, and all I got from you is trolling... Don't make a blank statement to provoke a reaction and then come back saying "oh I was talking about Spain only". Troll...
I've been talking about firearms and cirme in Spain since the first comment on homicide rate. I wonder what low reading comprehension it takes to not notice it for several days and messages... "We want your help to convince management to develop Incarna into 3rd person shooter dungeon raiding with friendly fire in nullsec space..."
Seriously, Team Avatar? |
Dunan Sanis
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
14
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 16:26:00 -
[287] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:I looked around trying to find more info on the weapons used... From this article we get that the gunman used the shotgun first, then switched to AR-15, which jammed, and then finished with a handgun. Most of the media is focusing on the AR and the fact that the gunman was using a high capacity 100-rounds magazine. But nobody actually knows how many rounds were fired with the AR before it jammed. I might have been 2 or 3 rounds for all we know. ARs are known to jam a lot, specially when used with modified after market magazines (I've seen this happen at the range more than once). The shotgun is another puzzle. Shotgun shells can have hundreds of small pellets (for birds) or one gigantic slug (for deer). Here again, he might have killed a few with it, or might have killed none. The handgun was first reported to be a glock .40 but later it was corrected to be a Les Baer .45 pistol. If my info is correct (1911 fans correct me if I'm wrong), that holds 8 rounds in the magazine and 1 in the chamber... 9 rounds total. The lethality of the of 45ACP cartridge afaik is about 90% for victims that had only one shot (again, correct me if I'm wrong). From that I honestly believe most of the fatalities were from the handgun. It was also reported that the gunman was using a tactical vest. I have no doubt he had extra magazines for the 45 in it. I'm not sure if this gun is a "last-shot-hold-open" or not. If it is, it would be real easy and fast even for a novice to change magazines. Personally, I'm not in favor of any gun-bans AT ALL. But if something is to get banned, lets at least ban the weapon that was most lethal, and not the one that "looked" lethal. Such measure would at least make *some* sense. Several countries (Brazil for example) have gun laws that restrict civilians from using handgun calibers bigger than 380ACP. The idea is that you can defend yourself, but are less likely to kill. Anybody from Vera Cruz please correct me if I'm wrong. If you go to Europe, several law enforcement agencies use the 380ACP as the standard issue round. (our Spain friend can comment on this). Like I said, while I'm against any time of restrictions. Caliber restrictions on handguns do make more sense (1911 fans please don't hate me). And no, I'm not saying it just because I have an itty bitty tiny 380ACP pocket pistol myself. The 380ACP serves a purpose when carrying conceal in 100 degrees Floridian weather, wearing only a t-shirt and short pants.
Caliber has nothing to do with lethality.
A .45 fired by your typical handgun will go through a body cleanly while a 5.56 fired by a standard assault rifle will cause TERRIBLE damages.
After that you give the exemple of the 380ACP like if it was a gentle bullet not meant to kill... First 9mm is A LOT. Would you consider 7.62 to be small?
Secondly 9mm is a VERY common caliber so using it as a special exemple is a little strange
Finally the reaon the 380ACP can be considered low power is not because of the caliber of the bullet at all but the length of the cartridge.
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Shameless Avenger
327
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 20:42:00 -
[288] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:I've been talking about firearms and cirme in Spain since the first comment on homicide rate. I wonder what low reading comprehension it takes to not notice it for several days and messages...
You were talking about "the rest of the world" and making assumptions left and right about why Americans do what they do, based on sources you failed to cite. I do appreciate your Spain specific input. I love to learn as much as possible about other countries, specially Spanish speaking countries.
"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro" ~ The Story of the Ninja |
Shameless Avenger
327
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 20:43:00 -
[289] - Quote
Dunan Sanis wrote: Caliber has nothing to do with lethality. ... Finally the reaon the 380ACP can be considered low power is not because of the caliber of the bullet at all but the length of the cartridge.
Well, if we get really technical we'll get some people saying that 9mm and 380ACP is the same caliber with different cartridges. Which might possibly be true as bullets do look the same to me with the naked eye.
I'm not trying to say that the 380ACP is not lethal. It can surely kill. But there's a page (can't find the link right now) that has some stats as per the total number of people that had been hit with xyz caliber and how many of them died. That's where the theoretical "caliber/cartridge lethality" numbers come from.
"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro" ~ The Story of the Ninja |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1742
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 21:38:00 -
[290] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:Dunan Sanis wrote: Caliber has nothing to do with lethality. ... Finally the reaon the 380ACP can be considered low power is not because of the caliber of the bullet at all but the length of the cartridge.
Well, if we get really technical we'll get some people saying that 9mm and 380ACP is the same caliber with different cartridges. Which might possibly be true as bullets do look the same to me with the naked eye. I'm not trying to say that the 380ACP is not lethal. It can surely kill. But there's a page (can't find the link right now) that has some stats as per the total number of people that had been hit with xyz caliber and how many of them died. That's where the theoretical "caliber/cartridge lethality" numbers come from.
More people have been killed by .22 LR rounds than any other caliber
Knowledge is power! |
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Shameless Avenger
327
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 21:54:00 -
[291] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Shameless Avenger wrote:Dunan Sanis wrote: Caliber has nothing to do with lethality. ... Finally the reaon the 380ACP can be considered low power is not because of the caliber of the bullet at all but the length of the cartridge.
Well, if we get really technical we'll get some people saying that 9mm and 380ACP is the same caliber with different cartridges. Which might possibly be true as bullets do look the same to me with the naked eye. I'm not trying to say that the 380ACP is not lethal. It can surely kill. But there's a page (can't find the link right now) that has some stats as per the total number of people that had been hit with xyz caliber and how many of them died. That's where the theoretical "caliber/cartridge lethality" numbers come from. More people have been killed by .22 LR rounds than any other caliber Knowledge is power!
Yes, 22LR is cheap, therefore is it used the most, therefore it has the most deaths. Not uncommon to see people with 10k rounds of it in the garage, on a shelf.
"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro" ~ The Story of the Ninja |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1666
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 23:32:00 -
[292] - Quote
A well-placed 22CB will kill and without so much more sound than a hand clap.
I don't remember what "CB" means, but we all called them "Cat bullets" because they were ideal for taking out stray cats without making too much noise. |
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
123
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 23:43:00 -
[293] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:A well-placed 22CB will kill and without so much more sound than a hand clap.
I don't remember what "CB" means, but we all called them "Cat bullets" because they were ideal for taking out stray cats without making too much noise.
You monster! "Oh, you can't help that," said the troll: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" -ásaid the forumwarrior. "You must be," said the troll, "or you wouldn't have come here." |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1666
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 06:20:00 -
[294] - Quote
Nylith Empyreal wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:A well-placed 22CB will kill and without so much more sound than a hand clap.
I don't remember what "CB" means, but we all called them "Cat bullets" because they were ideal for taking out stray cats without making too much noise. You monster!
Even my mother says that.
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baltec1
Bat Country
1732
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 07:41:00 -
[295] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Even my mother says that.
Always listen to your mother. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1679
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 23:54:00 -
[296] - Quote
Hmmm - was the second windup toy late and this is one of the "other shooters"?
breaking news
Looks like we will need "Gasoline Control". Though as far as theaters are concerned, I would rather be shot at than firebombed. Much easier to dodge bullets than try to climb over melting flesh that is still trying to climb over you.
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