At the very least, we're going to see how differently America and Norway treat their mass shooters. This guy's going to get the death penalty assuming he isn't proven batshit insane. Which... I suppose could happen.

At the very least, we're going to see how differently America and Norway treat their mass shooters. This guy's going to get the death penalty assuming he isn't proven batshit insane. Which... I suppose could happen.

Why are people bringing their kids to a movie in the middle of the night on a school night?

School night? What school is that?

Generally in US regular school sessions don't start until August, and then it is late August. Right now we got Summer Break.

Oh my god, they just leave their 6 yo child at home alone all day when they go to work?

Oh my god, they just leave their 6 yo child at home alone all day when they go to work?

'He looked so calm when he did it,' another witness said. 'It was like scary. He waited for both the bombs to explode before he did anything.


'Then, after both of them exploded, he began to shoot. He had no specific target. He just started letting loose.'

Kindergarten? Have you heard of it?

Why are people bringing their kids to a movie in the middle of the night on a school night?

(or course most of what comes out of Hollywood is crap anyway)

Also I have a feeling I know where the next NRA rally will take place

(or course most of what comes out of Hollywood is crap anyway)

Shall we start the countdown until a major news outlet "procures" evidence that the shooter played video games? I bet games will be scapegoated here.

Most likely they will hone in on the entertainment industry as a whole. They always do. You know because crazy people did not exist before film, music and video games... right??

So why hasn't there been millions of people dye their hair green, grab a gun and head to their local crowd gathering event then? Millions watch The Dark Knight. Third highest grossing film of all time.

The gunman wore a bullet-proof vest, tactical body armour and gloves, and was carrying an AR-15 military-style, semi-automatic rifle, a shotgun and two pistols, police said. The gunman, whom witnesses said had said nothing during the attack, threw two tear gas grenades then opened fire with a rifle.

So, um, does anyone know if the movie was any good? I was thinking about catching it tonight.

So, um, does anyone know if the movie was any good? I was thinking about catching it tonight.

So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.

CALMLY shooting people and then being arrested easily while claiming to be the Joker.

Tell me that drugs are not involved.


Too bad drug companies are such a huge chunk of revenue for the media.


Anyway this incident follows the same old MO, from the person all the way up to the timing - the UN gun ban treaty where all they need are two votes in the senate.


But everybody I know is saying "bring it".

I just can't wait til the Adventure Time premiere. Gonna dress up like him and club people to death with a sword. Tell the cops, I was his evil clone, from a botched Princess Bubblegum science experiment.

The .223 round really sucks that much? No wonder we are still stuck in the middle east. We are under-gunned. Any ex-military here could shed some light as per why so many survived?

really?

It seems most of the fatalities were from the .40 handgun and the shotgun. If that's the case, restrictions on assault rifles are meaningless and William Hughes had it all wrong.

Getting mostly wounded is the norm with personal firearms. Wounding isn't all bad though, since the level of wounding takes the guy out of combat duty, treating wounded ties up valuable resources on the other side and takes even more people off the front line(Medical personel/equipment and soldiers/vehicles to transport them. Killing the guy removes 1 soldier from direct combat, wounding him removes the victim and 2-4 others+vehicle+resources temporarily) and having badly mutilated people is bad for enemy morale. Also with personal armor being widely available and taking in to account normal fighting distances of infantry combat, weapons like shotguns and pistols are at a clear disadvantage.

*Applies for TSA Fondling Specialist position*

He might have been spraying the AR, while the shotgun and handgun are sometimes harder to spray them. Yeah spray would kill less and injure more, but at the same time, you won't be overwhelmed by the tons of people.

Just poison tip them next time.

Sold out movie theater... 1 12 gauge round would take out 2-3 people a shot, also panicked civilians don't try to overwhelm the attacker. They run or pretend to be dead like they should be for being incompetent and complacent

Looking back through history I cannot think of a single event where people went mad and killed lots of others. It cannot be a coincidence that the first world war happened not long after movies were invented.

spew

2. If people can't bear arms then only the criminals will have firearms.

There are roughly 300 or so cases each year in the united states of self defense resulting in death that are ruled
"justifiable". The chances of you owning a gun and using that gun in self defense and it being ruled "justified" is
almost none.

3. If I don't have a gun then someone can break into my house and I can't defend myself.

Generally speaking people don't break into your house when your home. Contrary to popular belief occupied home
invasions are extremely rare. Since people break into your house when your not home that nice new shiny hand cannon
you bought is stolen and is now used to further crime not prevent it.

Probably because the home owner might have a gun? Again... working as intended. Deterrance is a good thing.

Amend the constitution of the united states, to make it no longer legal to own firearms. Since I know there
are like a gazillion gun nuts out there I will make a quick FAQ here, so I don't have to keep posting.

Gun nut FAQ:

1. It's my constitutional right to bears arms.

This is true. But it's also true that the constitution is a living document and can be amended. For instance slavery
was abolished by an amendment to the constitution.

2. If people can't bear arms then only the criminals will have firearms.

There are roughly 300 or so cases each year in the united states of self defense resulting in death that are ruled
"justifiable". The chances of you owning a gun and using that gun in self defense and it being ruled "justified" is
almost none.

3. If I don't have a gun then someone can break into my house and I can't defend myself.

Generally speaking people don't break into your house when your home. Contrary to popular belief occupied home
invasions are extremely rare. Since people break into your house when your not home that nice new shiny hand cannon
you bought is stolen and is now used to further crime not prevent it.

4. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

No actually guns kill people.

5. If citizens are not armed then the government can take over!

Lets see, Tanks, Air Force, Professional Army, Cruise Missles, Predator Drones, etc etc versus Small Arms.

---

Wait till the premier of the next batman movie

4. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

No actually guns kill people.

A couple points. As too the victims I will pray for you. Now about banning guns, how well did the no gun thing work out when that guy in the Netherlands lost it? Your point on small arms wont work on us because of the military having tanks and such. Well for one they don't have enough tanks to occupy every neighborhood, and the same goes for cruise missiles be planes. The only thing that worries me is the drones.

One more point. Is anyone here bothered by the fact that the guy kicked the emergency fire exit in? You cant do that. And it sure as he'll wasn't unlocked. I'm thinking inside job. It just don't add up. Try it for yourself kick a door like that from the outside. It wont budge.

I really have to respond to your post to inject at least some rationality into your world...

You offer prayers to the dead (like that's going to do them any good) and then imply that a no-gun policy won't work. Don't you think it would be more rational to ban guns and ignore religion...do both of those things and the world will be a FAR safer place than it is today.

If the US won't ban guns, ban the sale of ammo or price it exorbitantly - 10,000 dollars a round sir?

Amend the constitution of the united states, to make it no longer legal to own firearms. Since I know there
are like a gazillion gun nuts out there I will make a quick FAQ here, so I don't have to keep posting.

Gun nut FAQ:

1. It's my constitutional right to bears arms.

This is true. But it's also true that the constitution is a living document and can be amended. For instance slavery
was abolished by an amendment to the constitution.

2. If people can't bear arms then only the criminals will have firearms.

There are roughly 300 or so cases each year in the united states of self defense resulting in death that are ruled
"justifiable". The chances of you owning a gun and using that gun in self defense and it being ruled "justified" is
almost none.

3. If I don't have a gun then someone can break into my house and I can't defend myself.

Generally speaking people don't break into your house when your home. Contrary to popular belief occupied home
invasions are extremely rare. Since people break into your house when your not home that nice new shiny hand cannon
you bought is stolen and is now used to further crime not prevent it.

4. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

No actually guns kill people.

5. If citizens are not armed then the government can take over!

Lets see, Tanks, Air Force, Professional Army, Cruise Missles, Predator Drones, etc etc versus Small Arms.

---

The numbers vary between news sites. From the OP's link: "police say 70 people were wounded".

With my respect to the dead....

The .223 round really sucks that much? No wonder we are still stuck in the middle east. We are under-gunned. Any ex-military here could shed some light as per why so many survived?

*Meanwhile in England*

And like Dietrich says (but way cooler) I will cede my 2nd amendment rights to whoever is able to take them from me

Amend the constitution of the united states, to make it no longer legal to own firearms. Since I know there
are like a gazillion gun nuts out there I will make a quick FAQ here, so I don't have to keep posting.

Gun nut FAQ:

1. It's my constitutional right to bears arms.

This is true. But it's also true that the constitution is a living document and can be amended. For instance slavery
was abolished by an amendment to the constitution.

2. If people can't bear arms then only the criminals will have firearms.

There are roughly 300 or so cases each year in the united states of self defense resulting in death that are ruled
"justifiable". The chances of you owning a gun and using that gun in self defense and it being ruled "justified" is
almost none.

3. If I don't have a gun then someone can break into my house and I can't defend myself.

Generally speaking people don't break into your house when your home. Contrary to popular belief occupied home
invasions are extremely rare. Since people break into your house when your not home that nice new shiny hand cannon
you bought is stolen and is now used to further crime not prevent it.

4. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

No actually guns kill people.

The .223 (or the 5.56mm Ball) is a round designed primarily to wound and incapacitate.

Was expecting a G4S insult. You dissapoint me

So you people not living in the states can clearly see why we have such a problem with guns.

It's the gun nuts.

I've been arguing with these people since the early 90's lol.

Over the years I have met many many people that keep firearms in the house, and I can honestly tell you that
almost without exception every single one of them is a TOTAL PARANOID.

The government is out to get them and take over and they will stop those m1-abram tanks with their shotgun
and glock-9.

Theres a boogey man always hanging around waiting to break into their house while they sleep.

I live in a city in florida with roughy 300 or so thousand people. I can literally walk 1/4 mile in any direction and
buy any type of gun there is, you name it assault rifle, shotgun, handgun.

99.99999999% of all the guns that are being sold in the united states will never be discharged in a way that
would be considered "self defense" under the law. The fact of the matter is whenever someone goes and buys
a gun the odds are x1000 times greater that it will be used in a illegal fashion. Such as:

It's stolen.

Used for an armed robbery.

Used in a murder.

Someone commits suicide with it.

It accidently discharges.

And let us not forget how many little 13-15 year old kids are running around with guns in the states. Metal detectors
in schools? Don't worry that's not totally insane or anything.

Collectively Americans have demonstrated that they just can't own guns responsibly.

So you people not living in the states can clearly see why we have such a problem with guns.

It's the gun nuts.

I've been arguing with these people since the early 90's lol.

Over the years I have met many many people that keep firearms in the house, and I can honestly tell you that
almost without exception every single one of them is a TOTAL PARANOID.

And let us not forget how many little 13-15 year old kids are running around with guns in the states. Metal detectors
in schools? Don't worry that's not totally insane or anything.

Collectively Americans have demonstrated that they just can't own guns responsibly.

Funny how the rest of the world doesnt need a gun to feel safe... chicken much?

...stuff...

Amend the constitution of the united states, to make it no longer legal to own firearms. Since I know there
are like a gazillion gun nuts out there I will make a quick FAQ here, so I don't have to keep posting.

Gun nut FAQ:

1. It's my constitutional right to bears arms.

This is true. But it's also true that the constitution is a living document and can be amended. For instance slavery
was abolished by an amendment to the constitution.

2. If people can't bear arms then only the criminals will have firearms.

There are roughly 300 or so cases each year in the united states of self defense resulting in death that are ruled
"justifiable". The chances of you owning a gun and using that gun in self defense and it being ruled "justified" is
almost none.

3. If I don't have a gun then someone can break into my house and I can't defend myself.

Generally speaking people don't break into your house when your home. Contrary to popular belief occupied home
invasions are extremely rare. Since people break into your house when your not home that nice new shiny hand cannon
you bought is stolen and is now used to further crime not prevent it.

4. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

No actually guns kill people.

5. If citizens are not armed then the government can take over!

Lets see, Tanks, Air Force, Professional Army, Cruise Missles, Predator Drones, etc etc versus Small Arms.

---

>Implying unjust laws are not invalid
>Implying the victim being able to shoot back isn't a deterrence
>Implying criminals have your best interest at heart
No ****.
>Implying 80 million gun owners will lie down
>Implying the rank and file servicemen want to kill their own countrymen
>Implying the militia wouldn't blow up infrastructure

Lets give the army a little credit, even though I am not an American I find it hard to believe the rank and file would want to kill fellow Americans.

Or they could stop selling assault rifles with huge ammo drums. Handguns I get, shotguns sure, hunting rifles ok but assault rifles? Just what is the average man going to be going up against to require one of those

Actually the 'gun nuts' are not the problem.
I know, you have this image of an evil, suburban, paunchy, 40-something NRA member.
Funny thing is, they don't really commit all that much crime.

Look at the FBI statistics.
If you somehow disarmed the inner-city gang members, the US ends up with a gun crime rate similar to...hmm...Canada.

I speak with experience when I say red states like Montana and Idaho are LOADED with 'gun nuts', and have high gun ownership rates. They have lax laws, but yet - very low gun crime rates.

Why? No black people.
Show me a state with a high percentage of blacks, and I'll show you a state with lots of gun crime - whether the state has strict laws (Washington D.C.) or not (Alabama.)

So when you say 'collectively Americans demonstrated' anything - this NRA member would prefer not to be lumped in with Crips and Bloods, thank you.

Woo hoo!

I KNEW this was coming...


The shooter was a gamer....

In other words, this guy was equipped with exotic gear by someone with connections to military equipment.

The guy that works in the surplus store?

First, for those who might claim that Amendment 2 is "outdated because then they only has flintlocks", I would say that the same argument can be made against the first amendment becuase all they had then was the pen and the printing press.

Based on that idea, if that happened, and they did once and it didn't work ("Clinton gun ban" 1994 - 2004), then I want every sporty car to be taken off the road.

In fact, there are two double standards. You can get a felony conviction not related to violence or guns, and never be allowed to own a gun again, yet you can get a felony conviction wtih illegal road racing - if you get caught enough - and then after your license is suspended for a while, you can own and operate vehicles again.

Hmmmm

I knew a fellow who could not own guns because he was a road racer, and he drove a suped up truck with a nitrous bottle in it as big as a SCUBA tank.

Now, if someone can go to my rifle and say "you don't need that high capacity magazine (and people I have met who say that think more than 10 rounds is high cap), then I certainly want to see all the rice boys and car enthusiasts be told they don't need that turbocharger, nitrous, etc.

It's only fair, right?

The tens of millons of guns out there are not owned for criminal purposes, yet a car designed to go fast is in fact designed to break the law.


What I want is that if I can't be free, I want everybody to live in the same tyranny and nanny state that I do.

So you people not living in the states can clearly see why we have such a problem with guns.

It's the gun nuts.

I've been arguing with these people since the early 90's lol.

Over the years I have met many many people that keep firearms in the house, and I can honestly tell you that
almost without exception every single one of them is a TOTAL PARANOID.

The government is out to get them and take over and they will stop those m1-abram tanks with their shotgun
and glock-9.

Theres a boogey man always hanging around waiting to break into their house while they sleep.

I live in a city in florida with roughy 300 or so thousand people. I can literally walk 1/4 mile in any direction and
buy any type of gun there is, you name it assault rifle, shotgun, handgun.

99.99999999% of all the guns that are being sold in the united states will never be discharged in a way that
would be considered "self defense" under the law. The fact of the matter is whenever someone goes and buys
a gun the odds are x1000 times greater that it will be used in a illegal fashion. Such as:

It's stolen.

Used for an armed robbery.

Used in a murder.

Someone commits suicide with it.

It accidently discharges.

And let us not forget how many little 13-15 year old kids are running around with guns in the states. Metal detectors
in schools? Don't worry that's not totally insane or anything.

Collectively Americans have demonstrated that they just can't own guns responsibly.

(...)

The rest of the world? Let me see what I remember from my 33 years of living outside the US:

* Steel windows.
* Steel doors.
* 8 foot tall fence (including front patio) with barbed wire on top.
* Steel gates on all windows and doors.
* Steel cages for the air conditioner units.
* Reinforced concrete (no cinder blocks), even for the roof.
* Despite all defenses, still had the home invaded twice... with all the family inside.
* Cars robbed from inside the garage, 5 times.
* Home burglarized, 12 times.
* Robbed/Mugged while entering/exiting the neighborhood, over 20 times.
* Stabbed... once
* Shoot at... lost count

Hum... I think I'll rather stay in gun-lovin' Florida... with my glass windows, my dry-walls and mah guns.

So you people not living in the states can clearly see why we have such a problem with guns.

It's the gun nuts.

I've been arguing with these people since the early 90's lol.

Over the years I have met many many people that keep firearms in the house, and I can honestly tell you that
almost without exception every single one of them is a TOTAL PARANOID.

The government is out to get them and take over and they will stop those m1-abram tanks with their shotgun
and glock-9.

Theres a boogey man always hanging around waiting to break into their house while they sleep.

I live in a city in florida with roughy 300 or so thousand people. I can literally walk 1/4 mile in any direction and
buy any type of gun there is, you name it assault rifle, shotgun, handgun.

99.99999999% of all the guns that are being sold in the united states will never be discharged in a way that
would be considered "self defense" under the law. The fact of the matter is whenever someone goes and buys
a gun the odds are x1000 times greater that it will be used in a illegal fashion. Such as:

It's stolen.

Used for an armed robbery.

Used in a murder.

Someone commits suicide with it.

It accidently discharges.

And let us not forget how many little 13-15 year old kids are running around with guns in the states. Metal detectors
in schools? Don't worry that's not totally insane or anything.

Collectively Americans have demonstrated that they just can't own guns responsibly.

Yes, life conditions kinda suck in Somalia...

You haven't been to Detroit haven't you?

Guns are built for killing things, cars are not. Having something that spits out 90 rounds a minute with a drum for 100 plus shots simply has no reason for being in the hands of a civilian. What the hell do you need that kind of firepower for other than fight a war? Or chop down trees...

If you are going to justify that kind of thing you need to come out with something smarter than that dross.

Detroit? Didn't you said that you had lived outside of the US?

only faggots need a military arsenal in their houses to "feel safe", so you american ones are fighting for faggotry being a Constitutional Right, correct? Keep going being slaughtered by your neighbors and sons then.

I find this entire thread offensive and utter joke the fact ccp has left up here with out locking it a testament to hate of USA or incompetence


HONOR THE DEAD!!

only faggots need a military arsenal in their houses to "feel safe", so you american ones are fighting for faggotry being a Constitutional Right, correct? Keep going being slaughtered by your neighbors and sons then.

I find this entire thread offensive and utter joke the fact ccp has left up here with out locking it a testament to hate of USA or incompetence


HONOR THE DEAD!!

Oh oh, someone somewhere who did something was into something that a lot of people here are into...


Quick! To the PassMoreLawsMobile!!!1!!!!

not that serious to need assault rifles and such stuff in my house yet

edit: you edited first I see, anyway guess you've got the message Theron

not that serious to need assault rifles and such stuff in my house yet

A sports car is built for what?

Speed, right?

And on the same roads as everybody else too.


Back in the 1990s, I heard a very common refrain from all those suburban soccer moms regarding their SUV: "If there is an accident, I want the people in the other vehicle to die". Mike Judge made fun of this mentality in a "King of the Hill" episode.

Might I need to cite motor vehicle deaths ?


Keep this in mind though, real freedom is not needing acceptance or permission from the likes of you. So nothing you say is going to change my mind. I have guns because I can.

Just a quick note, as I don't intend to get any more involved in the argument than this:

When people died in the shooting in Norway, the response was "Oh my God, how horrible! Our hearts go out to the people of Norway!" Yet, when something similar happened in the United States, the forums exploded with 'That's what you get for being dirty, evil warmongers and allowing your people to own firearms!"

I don't know about you, but to me that seems more than a tiny bit prejudiced and cold-hearted.

I have no issue with you owning a gun for protection or hunting or sport. I simply dont get why you need military grade weaponry.

I have no issue with you owning a gun for protection or hunting or sport. I simply dont get why you need military grade weaponry.

Define "military grade weaponry".

Yes, surely my duck hunting napalm isn't military grade

Also, if you want to legally own a "military grade weapon" in the US... say an M16 or an AK with a selector lever. The end cost with the fees is going to be around $350,000

That's both messed up to say and patently false.

I have no issue with you owning a gun for protection or hunting or sport. I simply dont get why you need military grade weaponry.

Define "military grade weaponry".

guns don't kill people.

Oh please... silenced saigas?

I see your saigas and raise you a Russian

Makes you wonder why terrorists are still trying to get on planes and not raiding their local gun and beer store.

Just about everything these guys touch.



They just make it easyer.

Because the people running the gun store have guns?

I'm going to go see the new batman movie tomorrow, if the 3D is as great as they say I should see bullet holes!

Im going tomorrow and I cant wait so no spoilers

And your point is?

The rest of the world? Let me see what I remember from my 33 years of living outside the US:

* Steel windows.
* Steel doors.
* 8 foot tall fence (including front patio) with barbed wire on top.
* Steel gates on all windows and doors.
* Steel cages for the air conditioner units.
* Reinforced concrete (no cinder blocks), even for the roof.
* Despite all defenses, still had the home invaded twice... with all the family inside.
* Cars robbed from inside the garage, 5 times.
* Home burglarized, 12 times.
* Robbed/Mugged while entering/exiting the neighborhood, over 20 times.
* Stabbed... once
* Shoot at... lost count

Hum... I think I'll rather stay in gun-lovin' Florida... with my glass windows, my dry-walls and mah guns.

My point? You characterised "the rest of the world" like this:

.....


As i happen to live in "the rest fo the wold" and what you say doesn't apllies to my neck of the woods, and also as my country is way safer than the USA, I am wondering where did you live and why do you pretend that your experience depicts the real world outside of the USA and not some godforgotten crime ridden country.

No no no... your point is that you trolled the USA and when I trolled you back you got butthurt.

The "rest of the world" is a pretty big place. Some locations are safer than USA and some are not. USA itself is rather big. Some parts are safe some aren't.

About your own "neck of the woods", I'm sure you have your share of crime.

And you sitll hide from us the truth about your experiences outside of the US and why you pretend to characteise the world through them.

OMG the butthurt is strong with this one...

Dude... read the thread again. My point is that when you restrict civilian gun ownership, crime rises because criminals know you don't have guns. I've lived on places with many gun restrictions and this is usually the end result. If you want to have a discussion about it, feel free to list countries, along with their gun laws and their crime rates.

Crime in the UK has fallen for the past 2 decades. So long as you dont live in the poor parts of london, Birmingham or Manchester you should be ok.

Oh and all of Glasgow, they beat up terrorists on fire with fire extingishers.

Crime in the UK has fallen for the past 2 decades. So long as you dont live in the poor parts of london, Birmingham or Manchester you should be ok.

Oh and all of Glasgow, they beat up terrorists on fire with fire extingishers.

it's simple. hunting rifles and shotguns are for hunting, pistols and shotguns are for defense against individuals, and "military-grade weaponry" is for defense against the government. hell, if the founding fathers had it their way, there would be local militias all over the place. guns don't kill people. they're just tools.

OMG the butthurt is strong with this one...

Dude... read the thread again. My point is that when you restrict civilian gun ownership, crime rises because criminals know you don't have guns. I've lived on places with many gun restrictions and this is usually the end result. If you want to have a discussion about it, feel free to list countries, along with their gun laws and their crime rates.

But the Ft Hood shooter? His business cards literally said Soldier of Allah..

So, you see: Spanish citizens are esentially barred to owe short firearms of any kind and very specifically for self-defense, and yet intentional murder is quite below USA's index. How could that be?

...saying the unrest in Manchester and Salford was "nothing more than senseless violence with no absolutely no regard for people, their property or livelihoods."

Earlier Tuesday, residents of London's affected areas banded together to clean up the aftermath of looting in their communities, but some expressed concern that the disorder would continue.

Many residents of the communities hit by violence have complained that police responded too slowly or in too few numbers to quell the troubles in previous nights.

John Comyn was part of a group of people who tried to keep looters out of the shops in the Clapham area Monday night.

He said a core of about 20 people stood together to try to repel the looters, but as many as 50 people pitched in to try to protect the local businesses.

"Anybody who was wearing a mask or a hood GÇö we just told them there was nothing for them beyond us, stick to where you've ruined already, and they just weren't to get past us."

Comyn said he knew the police were stretched, but he noted that he didn't see a single officer while he was out Monday.

I need to get myself one of those

Stuff

About your Spain...

You talked about small arms. How about hunting rifles and shotguns? If you are not restricting ALL of them, the potential home-invader still have to think about "maybe they have a rifle" or "maybe they have a shotgun". So:

Are hunting rifles restricted?
Are shotguns restricted?
Do you need a license to buy ammunition?
Is there a yearly limit to ammunition per person?

And that's for the gun laws. About the crime:

- "Spain is the principal route of entry of drugs and narcotics into the European Union"
- " half of the ******* found by law enforcement agencies in Europe is found by Spanish police"
- "Spain has a high number of drug users, leading the table of ******* users in Europe"
- "70% of all crimes are committed by Spaniards and 30% by foreigners"

And don't even get me started on Franco and your history of freedom loving governments.

As for the rest of Europe, every time you guys have a big fight we have to pause our fridge-building apparatus and go sort things out... cuz we have the guns. :P

I also decided to do a random street view of Madrid for the hell of it and on my second hit it looks much like a building that you describe with high fences and bars on windows.

google map address reference: 11 Calle de la Macarena, Madrid

My first hit looked like a string of shops in a busy main road.

The problem in both of these unfortunate instances is NOT guns nor pickup trucks, but a culture of death, fear and ignorance perpetuated by the media, Hollywood, GÇ£popularGÇ¥ culture, GÇ£educationGÇ¥ system and the government itself who uses fear to justify their very existence on a daily basis. And Americans, for the most part, buy into this propaganda (what Edward Bernays and Walter Lippman referred to as GÇ£perception managementGÇ¥) with very little critical thought.

I googled and The Telegraph said:

"The United Kingdom is the violent crime capital of Europe and has one of the highest rates of violence in the world, worse even than America, according to new research."

Linky here for your review

In yet another tragic episode of sheer ignorance, 23 people were piled into a Ford F-250 which went off the road Sunday on Route 59 southwest of Houston, Texas, smashing into a tree killing 13 and seriously injuring the other 10 on board. Where is the 24/7 nationwide media coverage, outrage and grief for these poor individuals and their grieving families? I hear the crickets chirping loudly because there was no gun involved in this tragedy.

They were not murdered which kinda makes huge difference.

Cultural? Socio-economic? Enough people are happy (i.e. have a job, decent living wage, opportunities, etc.) that you don't have to worry about an underclass running amok and burning your stuff while the police fail to respond? Do you have elementary school kids bringing knives/shanks or drugs to school? Do you have high school teens who commit burglary when they're out of school for the summer? Does a recession in your country cause a reduction in the police force due to cuts in city budgets while simultaneously increasing crime?

Are you suggesting that Israeli citiznes shouldn't be allowed to own guns? Are you suggesting that unarmed Tibetans are happy with their low gun homicide rate? I hear that Syrian civilians aren't allowed to own military grade guns.

It's a complex issue. A lack of gun ownership can work in some societies. In other societies, a lack of a gun results in slavery or your living in fear.

England may limit firearms and have few firearm related deaths, but how long are people going to support gun control laws if the cops (and society) cannot maintain order?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/08/09/london-riots-tuesday.html


Again, if you want a "solution" to gun violence/ownership, look at your socio-economic policies and less at your gun laws.

A drone strike in Pakistan killed some people today.....

About your Spain...

You talked about small arms. How about hunting rifles and shotguns? If you are not restricting ALL of them, the potential home-invader still have to think about "maybe they have a rifle" or "maybe they have a shotgun". So:

Are hunting rifles restricted?
Are shotguns restricted?
Do you need a license to buy ammunition?
Is there a yearly limit to ammunition per person?

And that's for the gun laws. About the crime:

- "Spain is the principal route of entry of drugs and narcotics into the European Union"
- " half of the ******* found by law enforcement agencies in Europe is found by Spanish police"
- "Spain has a high number of drug users, leading the table of ******* users in Europe"
- "70% of all crimes are committed by Spaniards and 30% by foreigners"

And don't even get me started on Franco and your history of freedom loving governments.

As for the rest of Europe, every time you guys have a big fight we have to pause our fridge-building apparatus and go sort things out... cuz we have the guns. :P

You're right that there's a cultural factor; otherwise it would unsustainable to have 25% unemployment rate (50% for the young ones under 30) with an average to low crime rate. Would be long to explain, but anyway, in Spain weapons are not seen as a warrant for personal freedom, but a threat, mostly because every past tyrant got his share of population in favor of tyranny and they armed themselves against the rest. In our experience, people arm themselves to tyrannize others, so probably on that point we like to even the odds by preventing everyone to arm themselves. When ONLY mofos and cirminals want to arm themselves, you know what to think of anyone who wants to arm himself... and deal with it accordingly (restriction laws). At least in Spain.

But then, the main reason why an American must arm himself it's the other armed American. Armed American bring the need for more armed American, which is a funny vicious circle in which the USA put themselves for no logical reason. They're not under a massive military threat and if they ever find themselves fighting a tyranny, their neighbor is going to shoot them dead for not sharing his ideal. Nobody just wakes up and say "let's tyrannize my fellows"; they always got a good, legitimate (if wrong) interpretation of reality to justify themselves... "we're gonna dod this for a while just to get rid of X threat to our national ideals...". And then they begin shooting liberals, so to speak.

So essentially American got a firearm issue because of their culture and culture is something the American create themselves. Much as a beaten wife justifies her agressor, American justify their love for firearms.

As for the rest of Europe, every time you guys have a big fight we have to pause our fridge-building apparatus and go sort things out... cuz we have the guns. :P

I think you are getting americans mixed up with black people and other minorites....

On drugs traffic: learn some geography and don't mix it with crime rate, please.

Troll... stopped reading right there. This reminds me of a story:

I do like a good story.

That is an unfair story though, black police officers, usually are freindly, a bit too trusting or easy going, but friendly. You should read my post though, I did have to read your driving miss daisy second post.

You should like it. It was turned into a movie like in the 80s or sometime awhile ago. Actually a sequel. Where the black driver, becomes the body guard for her and is called. Protecting Miss Daisy.

Fair enough. I read your whole post and I agree that in the states you never know who you gonna meet. I am very adverse to pointing fingers at any specific groups because in the end, the causes are usually economic in nature. And once the finger pointing starts of feeds the crime like a loop:

Crime Happens >> Blame XYZ Group >> XYZ is now jobless >> XYZ Commit crimes (because they are broke) >> Blame XYZ Group >> repeat

I spent most of my afternoon reading Spain newspapers because quite frankly, I freaking love Spain. From those news I get that the Muslims are the ones being blamed for everything up there. The comments left of news articles by the readers are specially harsh. One news page that stood out was about a group of Muslims that use to pray on a park every week. The mayor of that city is now telling them to go pray somewhere else.

...
See we don't need guns, just alot of tall walls, placed strategically.

First you say that Spain is crimeless... now you say that drugs have nothing to do with crime. It keeps getting better with this one. Almost like the dreddits... the trollage just never ends. Maybe you are going to say that this week's Armed Robbery at the Madrid's Bank doesn't count as crime? Linky

Anyway, back to your original trollage of my description being one of "somalia"... looks like your cities have all the same carasteristics. The steel bars, the 8 foot fences, the barbed wire, everything. So be a good sport troll and admit you were trolling and got called out.

And while we are having this little and constructive cultural exchange. What's the deal with the Catalu+¦a Separatists? Is it like the Quebec issue? No trolling tho, every big nation has a few of those. Here in the US he have the Republic of Texas and the Banana Republic.

And the funny thing is, that's exactly what you do when you can't defend yourself: You build walls, lots of them. Wanna go very extreme on making the patio a secure place? Build a house with the patio *inside*. Yup, you heard right. House walls extending all the way to the property line and a huge empty space in the middle. An inside-the-house patio that can't even be seen from the outside.

...cultural lesson about walls...

You described the average western family house all the way from the 800 BC to the 1500 AC... I think they didn't banned weapons back then.

... you American ...

Your point clashes against the reality of almost every european country.

Let's look at my own country vs the USA, 2010:

Intentional murder per 100,000, USA: 4.8
Intentional murder per 100,000, Spain: 0.72

In Spain it's almost impossible to obtain a license to own a short arm for self-defense unless you're a part of security forces, the military, or work in certain professions (jewellers, FAI). Also the privilege that policemen and military have in that regard it's because they've been targeted by a terrorist band for some 40 years, so the law was modified to allow them to have one personal weapon at their home, plus a right to carry their issued weapon when not on duty.

The consequences of self-defense weapons being so strictly limited are funny; I think that the last time a policeman was killed on duty was in 2010 (it happens each few years in my country, with a population of 44 million).

Murder rate is so low that the mortal stabbing of a teenager makes national headlines (just happend this last weekend). Likely will be a few months until another such crime makes to the news.

So, you see: Spanish citizens are esentially barred to owe short firearms of any kind and very specifically for self-defense, and yet intentional murder is quite below USA's index. How could that be?

(...)

I think you are getting americans mixed up with black people and other minorites. You talk of spain as a homogenized mixture of people all being spanish. Not sure if that is true or not. But in the states, there are alot of different people, its hard to homogenize us and say we are all americans. There really is no like "americans" that is why we need guns, cause you don't know who you will meet. Like your reply said, you do know who you will meet. Tyrants, and mofos, here you don't know. Perhaps you will meet other types of people here or perhaps worse or better ones. If I went to iceland, I would expect to meet CCP so I wouldn't worry about bringing a gun, but if you flew to the states, you don't know who will greet ya.

Cherry picking data to make a point is really really dishonest.

There is little to no correlation(it might even be slightly negative) between guns per capita and murder rate.

Good examples of lots of guns and low crime: Switzerland, Canada, Scandinavia

Good examples of few guns, but lots of crime: Russia, Brazil, Most of the third world.

Now, even if you look inside EU and exclude former Eastern block members with low guns and high crime - you will see that many countries have something like 4-5x as many guns per capita as Spain, but similar murder rates.

Please, never use that argument, is it really dishonest to pick 1 or 2 EU countries and compare them to USA. Not to mention, USA local gun restrictions haven't really created low crime areas.

What's an American? Serious question.

I think that you're missing the point here.

Why owe a gun?

Self defense. <----ASSUMPTION

Self defense from what threat?

Any. <----ASSUMPTION on the prior ASSUMPTION

But, what's the most common threat around?

People who owe firearms. <----ASSUMPTION on the prior ASSUMPTION of the prior ASSUMPTION

But, what people?

ANY people. Everyone can owe a firearm and you never know who you're gonna meet. <---- Assumption^4

...keeps on going till ASSUMPTION^(n+1)

The one who claimed that few guns = high crime it's Shameless Avenger, not me. i am merely pointing him exaclty the same as you: no direct correlation between homicide and firearms.

I think that you're missing the point here.

Why owe a gun?

Self defense.

Self defense from what threat?

Any.

But, what's the most common threat around?

People who owe firearms.

But, what people?

ANY people. Everyone can owe a firearm and you never know who you're gonna meet.

So the reason why you need a weapon it's the American like you, who owe firearms because American like you owe guns.

Oh, you may say, "but, i am NOT a threat!" But then in your own words, "you don't know who will greet ya". And you are everybody else's "who will greet me?". So you are armed because of their arms, and they are armed because of your arms.

So all in all, American arm themselves because of armed American. And the more American arm themselves, the more American will have to worry about all those armed out there, thus they will keep arming themselves.

Oh wow the movie is ace.

My buddy was telling me it was a bit predictable. I might go see it tomorrow depending on how funds look.

I will go see it tomorrow, but first a trip to the surplus store for a kevlar vest