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The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
1
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Posted - 2012.07.22 15:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
2 ASBs per ship thankfully got banned before the tournament because use of that would have been catastrophic. 1 ASB use needs nerfing in some way also, however, perhaps reducing the number that can be fielded per match, or changing the module slightly - reducing the capacity so it has less cycles but also reducing the reload time? The prevalence of it in the tournament is getting a bit silly and in my opinion a bit overpowered, and it also makes the matches get kind of boring to watch.
Watching an armor vs shield match where the shield team gets logistics as well as nearly a minute of huge boosting on each ship, with bonuses on the cyclone, sleipnir and vargur means it's going to be a whitewash every time in favour of the shield team, simply because you can't pump out enough dps to beat both reps from a logi as well as the ASB before one of your major dps ships dies.
Pretty much every armor vs shield match goes like this:
Shield ship gets low-ish shield -> reps up with ASB and starts reloading -> logis hold it up until it is reloaded -> armor dps ship is already dead -> match is already over. ASBs cause matches to be over in 3 minutes when a majority of the losing team's ships are alive simply because of the huge amount of dps it can tank and how there is no dps left on the field to stay alive long enough to make it use the charges, then overcome the logi too.
TL;DR ASBs give too much tank and use should be nerfed because watching a shield team roflstomp an armor team every match is a tad boring simply because there is not enough dps left to deal with an ASB
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
918
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:2 ASBs per ship thankfully got banned before the tournament because use of that would have been catastrophic. 1 ASB use needs nerfing in some way also, however, perhaps reducing the number that can be fielded per match, or changing the module slightly - reducing the capacity so it has less cycles but also reducing the reload time? The prevalence of it in the tournament is getting a bit silly and in my opinion a bit overpowered, and it also makes the matches get kind of boring to watch.
Watching an armor vs shield match where the shield team gets logistics as well as nearly a minute of huge boosting on each ship, with bonuses on the cyclone, sleipnir and vargur means it's going to be a whitewash every time in favour of the shield team, simply because you can't pump out enough dps to beat both reps from a logi as well as the ASB before one of your major dps ships dies.
Pretty much every armor vs shield match goes like this:
Shield ship gets low-ish shield -> reps up with ASB and starts reloading -> logis hold it up until it is reloaded -> armor dps ship is already dead -> match is already over. ASBs cause matches to be over in 3 minutes when a majority of the losing team's ships are alive simply because of the huge amount of dps it can tank and how there is no dps left on the field to stay alive long enough to make it use the charges, then overcome the logi too.
TL;DR ASBs give too much tank and use should be nerfed because watching a shield team roflstomp an armor team every match is a tad boring simply because there is not enough dps left to deal with an ASB
Just throwing it out there how wrong you are and how little you understand the module and its work arounds.
Is it common, yes, is it broken, not really, if you know what you're doing its easily beatable (and has been beaten plenty of times).
It adds the ability to run a pure gank fleet without logistics, and basically adds variety that has been missing in years past.
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
1733
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
It offers a load of flexibility which I think makes it pretty damn awesome in terms of getting different setups. |
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Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
76
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:TL;DR ASBs give too much tank and use should be nerfed because watching a shield team roflstomp an armor team every match is a tad boring simply because there is not enough dps left to deal with an ASB
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Teinyhr
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
81
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think AT would benefit a lot more from banning/nerfing ECM than ASB.
*hides from the rotten tomatoes*
Edit2: Granted ECM hasn't made as bothersomely boring matches this year than it used to in some previous tournaments. |
The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
2
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: Just throwing it out there how wrong you are and how little you understand the module and its work arounds.
Is it common, yes, is it broken, not really, if you know what you're doing its easily beatable (and has been beaten plenty of times).
It adds the ability to run a pure gank fleet without logistics, and basically adds variety that has been missing in years past.
When you have 3 vargurs and a scimitar, all with ASBs, all requiring nearly a minute of shooting to get past their ASBs and then needing to beat their logi and kill them in the next minute - and you have to do that for each Vargur in turn without your dps ships dying, it's a bit silly. Clearly you're PL so you're going to defend your tactics and I'm not attacking PL for it in particular - I've seen this ASB tactic used all tournament and I just think actually, Soundwave, it reduces variety in the tournament - there is no reason to not fit a shield booster which gives huge boosts and isn't affected at all by neuts which could previously counter shield tank setups. |
Markus Reese
Incertae Sedis Cascade Imminent
243
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
It isn't so much nerf, but what is needed is instead of booster giving free boost. it should just reduce the cap needed per cycle. |
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
1608
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
ASB's was one of the best things added to the game. It gives another option to teams on what ships they should field and how they should fit them. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
918
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Just throwing it out there how wrong you are and how little you understand the module and its work arounds.
Is it common, yes, is it broken, not really, if you know what you're doing its easily beatable (and has been beaten plenty of times).
It adds the ability to run a pure gank fleet without logistics, and basically adds variety that has been missing in years past.
When you have 3 vargurs and a scimitar, all with ASBs, all requiring nearly a minute of shooting to get past their ASBs and then needing to beat their logi and kill them in the next minute - and you have to do that for each Vargur in turn without your dps ships dying, it's a bit silly. Clearly you're PL so you're going to defend your tactics and I'm not attacking PL for it in particular - I've seen this ASB tactic used all tournament and I just think actually, Soundwave, it reduces variety in the tournament - there is no reason to not fit a shield booster which gives huge boosts and isn't affected at all by neuts which could previously counter shield tank setups.
So you've seen plenty of logis die with ASB's in this tourney, obviously thats the clue to the weak link in the ASB suit of armor (we call it a 2stage tank).
The rest of beating it basically requires you to coax out a reload while staying alive, once you do that you pounce on the ship in question and rip it apart.
The ASB is just a new mod, you've seen armor set ups beat it, but of course its popular when so many people carry your attitude and just dont understand how easy it can be to get somebody to reload their ASB, and once they do that, it accelerates the match in a particular direction, which eventually ends up having a domino effect.
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2293
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
I like the dynamic it brings to the game.
Now perhaps some tweaking to the new adaptive armor resistance module needs to be done to make it comparable in effectiveness yet completely different in how it affects combat tactics. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
921
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:It isn't so much nerf, but what is needed is instead of booster giving free boost. it should just reduce the cap needed per cycle.
Then what would be the point in loading it with boosters?? Most boosters give more cap than the booster uses, why would you ever bother fitting one if thats all it did considering the draw backs of what happens when its OUT of charges (massive draw on your own cap or 1 minute of not reloading) |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
193
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
The ASB is one of the biggest balance blunders CCP has done in my opinion. |
notarealgirl
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
5
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Just throwing it out there how wrong you are and how little you understand the module and its work arounds.
Is it common, yes, is it broken, not really, if you know what you're doing its easily beatable (and has been beaten plenty of times).
It adds the ability to run a pure gank fleet without logistics, and basically adds variety that has been missing in years past.
When you have 3 vargurs and a scimitar, all with ASBs, all requiring nearly a minute of shooting to get past their ASBs and then needing to beat their logi and kill them in the next minute - and you have to do that for each Vargur in turn without your dps ships dying, it's a bit silly. Clearly you're PL so you're going to defend your tactics and I'm not attacking PL for it in particular - I've seen this ASB tactic used all tournament and I just think actually, Soundwave, it reduces variety in the tournament - there is no reason to not fit a shield booster which gives huge boosts and isn't affected at all by neuts which could previously counter shield tank setups.
Sounds like someone is butthurt about losing to an ASB equipped team (ie: a team that had a clue). |
The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
3
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ginseng Jita wrote:ASB's was one of the best things added to the game. It gives another option to teams on what ships they should field and how they should fit them. I would reword that as 'removing options' - I might be willing to bet that ASB Cyclone/Sleipnir/Vargur are the most common ships this tournament. There is no reason to use another option because the ASB tank combined with a logi to fill your reload time makes the tank so strong that there is not a lot that can deal with it without your dps ship dying before the enemy ASB ship is dead.
Also, that setup we saw a few days ago with 10 T1 battlecruisers - cyclones, feroxes and....brutixes (I think? Can't remember. Doesn't matter.) The 4 cyclones and 4 feroxes with ASBs would take so long to kill with almost a minute straight of ASB boosting on each ship that even if the ASB ships were doing no dps they would still all survive because you have to spend a whole minute wearing down the ASB charges and then even more time actually killing them. The match would be over before they died.
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The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
3
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
notarealgirl wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Just throwing it out there how wrong you are and how little you understand the module and its work arounds.
Is it common, yes, is it broken, not really, if you know what you're doing its easily beatable (and has been beaten plenty of times).
It adds the ability to run a pure gank fleet without logistics, and basically adds variety that has been missing in years past.
When you have 3 vargurs and a scimitar, all with ASBs, all requiring nearly a minute of shooting to get past their ASBs and then needing to beat their logi and kill them in the next minute - and you have to do that for each Vargur in turn without your dps ships dying, it's a bit silly. Clearly you're PL so you're going to defend your tactics and I'm not attacking PL for it in particular - I've seen this ASB tactic used all tournament and I just think actually, Soundwave, it reduces variety in the tournament - there is no reason to not fit a shield booster which gives huge boosts and isn't affected at all by neuts which could previously counter shield tank setups. Sounds like someone is butthurt about losing to an ASB equipped team (ie: a team that had a clue). My alliance isn't in the tournament and I have no affiliation with any of the teams in the tournament except for RvB because of the awesome community PvP environment you produce. My only affiliation is with watching an enjoyable tournament.
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Sakura Nihil
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
21
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Parallel tanking is the problem - having both ASB's and logistics going simultaneously is the problem. Teams should have to choose one or the other. |
R0ot
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
35
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
I'm betting against the ASB so as we all know now that means it will win. |
The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
3
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: The rest of beating it basically requires you to coax out a reload while staying alive, once you do that you pounce on the ship in question and rip it apart.
But, if they don't reload then they can just use all 13 charges. If you split your dps and try to coax a reload and they don't reload, then that's it. They will get the same amount of dps repped whether you split your dps or not.
Sorry, I'm pretty bad at explaining.
If you shoot at one ship and force it to use all 13 cycles then reload, then when it reloads you kill it. If you split your dps to try and coax something to reload and they don't, they're just taking less dps and don't need to use their ASBs as often so they don't have an obligation to reload it.
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The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
3
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: So you've seen plenty of logis die with ASB's in this tourney,
By the time you've killed the logi there are still 3 ASB vargurs/sleipnirs left alive and your dps ships will die in that time and you will not have enough dps to kill them any more. Match over. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
193
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: So you've seen plenty of logis die with ASB's in this tourney,
By the time you've killed the logi there are still 3 ASB vargurs/sleipnirs left alive and your dps ships will die in that time and you will not have enough dps to kill them any more. Match over.
Pretty much this. When both logis die, the team with ASB always wins. |
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Dograzor
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
11
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
ASB's are nice at the place where they are. They can be beaten, just like anything in Eve... Rock, Paper, Scissors.. just adapt to it. |
IamBeastx
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
34
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
You have no idea, no clue, they are easily beaten. Get with the times, learn to adapt. Also, if you think a single ASB is bad you have no idea about dual ASB (thank my amarrian gods they where banned). |
The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
5
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
Look at this match at the moment - Mildly Intoxicated - Raiden.
Those 3 Proteuses were unable to take down a webbed Sleipnir for a solid minute, and the logi was long dead. It's a bit silly. |
notarealgirl
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
5
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
I love ASB's, they offer so much to everyone who has the brains to consider them, on TQ or in the tourney, you just have to play smarter to beat them. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
921
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: The rest of beating it basically requires you to coax out a reload while staying alive, once you do that you pounce on the ship in question and rip it apart.
But, if they don't reload then they can just use all 13 charges.
What?
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
921
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:Look at this match at the moment - Mildly Intoxicated - Raiden.
Those 3 Proteuses were unable to take down a webbed Sleipnir for a solid minute, and the logi was long dead. It's a bit silly.
Did you mean those 3 proteus's that were rotating turns being jammed?
Lets do some simple math shall we?
Lets say a single XL ASB reps about 400 per cycle right?
Lets say each proteus does 500 damage, thats low, I'm way undershooting the Damage value of the proteus but basically the 3 of them added up to nearly 1500 dps or more.
Do you see how a single ASB wouldn't matter at all to those proteus's?
I think you're confusing what you're seeing with whats actually happening and you just dont understand the mod. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
194
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:Look at this match at the moment - Mildly Intoxicated - Raiden.
Those 3 Proteuses were unable to take down a webbed Sleipnir for a solid minute, and the logi was long dead. It's a bit silly. Did you mean those 3 proteus's that were rotating turns being jammed? Lets do some simple math shall we? Lets say a single XL ASB reps about 400 per cycle right? Lets say each proteus does 500 damage, thats low, I'm way undershooting the Damage value of the proteus but basically the 3 of them added up to nearly 1500 dps or more. Do you see how a single ASB wouldn't matter at all to those proteus's? I think you're confusing what you're seeing with whats actually happening and you just dont understand the mod.
This just in: ASBs not overpowered because a single ASB will be broken by 3x Proteuses.
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Lugalzagezi666
44
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
OP is right.
xl asb tank on sleipnir - 2490 dps overheated xl asb tank on vargur - 2000 oh fitting - 200/500 reps from asb are neut proof
lar tank on kronos - 450 dps overheated mar tank on astarte - 270 dps oh add fittings and +1 med slot for med/heavy cap booster
Then you can add 4 transfers from logi and links from command ship. This way both ships can get more than 5k dps tank overheated for almost one minute.
If you chain your cap transfers, you can run your booster even longer (you can also send cap to the logi - that has asb too of course). Completely unbalanced compared to armor reps.
Well, its noticeable - no ships use active armor tank while almost all ships use active shield tank. In this tournament ships fitting asb simply got 1 minute invulnerability card when fitted right.
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
923
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:46:00 -
[29] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:Look at this match at the moment - Mildly Intoxicated - Raiden.
Those 3 Proteuses were unable to take down a webbed Sleipnir for a solid minute, and the logi was long dead. It's a bit silly. Did you mean those 3 proteus's that were rotating turns being jammed? Lets do some simple math shall we? Lets say a single XL ASB reps about 400 per cycle right? Lets say each proteus does 500 damage, thats low, I'm way undershooting the Damage value of the proteus but basically the 3 of them added up to nearly 1500 dps or more. Do you see how a single ASB wouldn't matter at all to those proteus's? I think you're confusing what you're seeing with whats actually happening and you just dont understand the mod. This just in: ASBs not overpowered because a single ASB will be broken by 3x Proteuses. PS: a XL-ASB + Invulnerability Field II on a Sleipnir is already a 1k dps tank.
This just in, it'll be broken by most single ships, much less 2 ships, and people like you are over inflating its power level because you're mad about losses you've taken to them.
In testing, a single rep vindi has consistently beaten a dual ASB maelstrom.
Stop being a little girl about it.
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
xl asb tank on sleipnir - 2490 dps overheated xl asb tank on vargur - 2000 oh fitting - 200/500 reps from asb are neut proof
These numbers are very made up, good job. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
194
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 16:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:
In testing, a single rep vindi has consistently beaten a dual ASB maelstrom.
Only because on the BS level you can't oversize the ASB. For everything else, the ASB is ridiculously overpowered. If XXL-ASBs existed, the Maelstrom would wipe the floor with the Vindi without breaking a sweat. |
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
923
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:
In testing, a single rep vindi has consistently beaten a dual ASB maelstrom.
Only because on the BS level you can't oversize the ASB. For everything else, the ASB is ridiculously overpowered. If XXL-ASBs existed, the Maelstrom would wipe the floor with the Vindi without breaking a sweat.
What, well if you're going to make up mods out of thin air to prove your point i want an XL armor rep.
I mean, a straight up LARGE armor rep, can beat TWO XL reps on a mael.
But sure, feel free to create mods out of thin air to validate your argument.
EDIT: To put it in perspective, in the Verge/Rote match, that Verge sleip only tanked 51k damage, thats not very much, theres just a need to whine about a new mod from a bunch of people that have died to them. |
Lugalzagezi666
45
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: In testing, a single rep vindi has consistently beaten a dual ASB maelstrom.
Shocking news! Pirate battleship (also most dpsing subcap in eve) was able to consistently beat tech 1 battleship. Proof that asbs are not unbalanced at all!!
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
924
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: In testing, a single rep vindi has consistently beaten a dual ASB maelstrom.
Shocking news! Pirate battleship (also most dpsing subcap in eve) was able to consistently beat tech 1 battleship. Proof that asbs are not unbalanced at all!!
Not sure if you're serious....
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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
194
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:59:00 -
[34] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:
In testing, a single rep vindi has consistently beaten a dual ASB maelstrom.
Only because on the BS level you can't oversize the ASB. For everything else, the ASB is ridiculously overpowered. If XXL-ASBs existed, the Maelstrom would wipe the floor with the Vindi without breaking a sweat. What, well if you're going to make up mods out of thin air to prove your point i want an XL armor rep. I mean, a straight up LARGE armor rep, can beat TWO XL reps on a mael. But sure, feel free to create mods out of thin air to validate your argument.
Actually I was pointing out the critical difference between a Sleipnir and a Maelstrom that you somehow missed. The Sleipnir can run an oversized ASB, the Maelstrom cannot. So your counter that ASBs are fine because a Maelstrom loses to a Vindi doesn't translate to smaller ship sizes. |
Ryno Caval
Go Deeper Mining
8
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Posted - 2012.07.22 17:01:00 -
[35] - Quote
they already have a disadvantage with the 60sec reload and most of the number of charges is 10 regular cap boosters and then 12 or 13 navy cap boosters and what ends up happening when you run out of charges you are extremely weak tank and you tend to run outta cap extremely quickly so they already are balanced you just need to stop crying about the ASB however with some of the other inferno modules need buff like the reactive armor is weak as hell the target breaker is kinda wack maybe focus on the stuff that really is broken the ASB is fine the way it is it penalizes you for running outta charges and running the module and you run out of ammo rather quickly so you have to balance how much damage you are willing to take in the shields. |
fpshacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
25
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Posted - 2012.07.22 17:01:00 -
[36] - Quote
In tournament setting the ASB is op. It makes sleipners far too viable compared to other ships.
CCP needs to make an armor variant of this module or nerf the sleips bonuses. Otherwise we should all get used to seeing sleip teams being the fotm that everyone goes to in the tournament. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
924
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Posted - 2012.07.22 17:16:00 -
[37] - Quote
This thread is a classic example of people not understanding game mechanics and mods and instead of learning about them whining that they get nerfed. |
fpshacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
25
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Posted - 2012.07.22 17:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:This thread is a classic example of people not understanding game mechanics and mods and instead of learning about them whining that they get nerfed.
This post is a classic example of grath telkin being bitter and pretending to understand game mechanics. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
924
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Posted - 2012.07.22 17:19:00 -
[39] - Quote
fpshacker wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:This thread is a classic example of people not understanding game mechanics and mods and instead of learning about them whining that they get nerfed. This post is a classic example of grath telkin being bitter and pretending to understand game mechanics.
Yea, you coming at me calling me bitter after i got you kicked out of PL doesn't look at all hypocritical...
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Lugalzagezi666
45
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Posted - 2012.07.22 17:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: Not sure if you're serious....
And you? Are you serious? You are basing validity of your argument on comparing most dpsing pirate bs (that has like 50% more dps, better tracking, lower signature, higher speed, higher agility, 90% web +1 "free" mid) to plain tech 1 bs...
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fpshacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
25
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Posted - 2012.07.22 17:21:00 -
[41] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:fpshacker wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:This thread is a classic example of people not understanding game mechanics and mods and instead of learning about them whining that they get nerfed. This post is a classic example of grath telkin being bitter and pretending to understand game mechanics. Yea, you coming at me calling me bitter after i got you kicked out of PL doesn't look at all hypocritical...
Yea i am sure me blue killing didn't help.
ps. I don't really want to be in a goon pet alliance |
Shivalla
Financial Removal THE SPACE P0LICE
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
Best thing that has EVER happened with Alliance Tournament. Hands down. It has made everything more interesting with also next year, its gonna be even MORE awesome.
Just my 5 cents |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
997
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:It offers a load of flexibility which I think makes it pretty damn awesome in terms of getting different setups.
would it be too much to increase it's healing amount and cycle time by 20%? allowing it to heal more at once but the same shields per second, but allowing for a bit more alpha to come through your shields if you're not fitting an ok passive tank.
?
but yeah it's awesome just keep it in mind : ) Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
Airia Linn
Paradox Collective Choke Point
0
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Posted - 2012.07.22 17:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
Why not just balance it out and ask Ccp to make an armour variant AAR that way it makes it viable to field an armour fleet that can finally active tank for a change. The asb is fine but it needs to be balanced with an armour type. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
925
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:33:00 -
[45] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Not sure if you're serious....
And you? Are you serious? You are basing validity of your argument on comparing most dpsing pirate bs (that has like 50% more dps, better tracking, lower signature, higher speed, higher agility, 90% web +1 "free" mid) to plain tech 1 bs...
Yes, because we're dealing with tanking, you know, the point of this argument and not any of what you listed, the DPS difference isn't important since both ships potentially out DPS the tanks of the other.
Only the vindi can do what the Mael does with a single rep, even though the Mael uses two, AND gets tanking bonuses.
The rest of the stats you listed mean nothing when dealing with the argument at hand which is about the strength of ASBs.
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
925
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:37:00 -
[46] - Quote
Airia Linn wrote:Why not just balance it out and ask Ccp to make an armour variant AAR that way it makes it viable to field an armour fleet that can finally active tank for a change. The asb is fine but it needs to be balanced with an armour type. Because then you make tanking homogenous and nobody likes that, right now you make choices about tanking and what you're going to tank, do i want to armor tank and get tons of utility, or do i want a really strong burst shield tank but NO ewar, ect.
There need to be clearly defined pros and cons for each, right now there is, adding a fueled armor booster will kill that.
That said the adaptive hardener is kinda crap, it could have been great but it came so incredibly pre nerfed that its not going to be the gap bridger that it should have been for armor tanks.
To make it better they need to massively reduce the cap the adaptive hardener burns to the level of a DCU so that it can give that brick feeling to armor once it cycles up, and it could probably use a slightly faster cycle time. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
925
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:38:00 -
[47] - Quote
fpshacker wrote:
ps. I don't really want to be in a goon pet alliance
And for my triple post:
I guess you didn't want to be in a tournament competition alliance either right?
|
The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:38:00 -
[48] - Quote
A vindi with equivalent 11 blasters and 90% web beats a Maelstrom so ASB isn't overpowered?
Um...okay then.
|
fpshacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
25
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:39:00 -
[49] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Airia Linn wrote:Why not just balance it out and ask Ccp to make an armour variant AAR that way it makes it viable to field an armour fleet that can finally active tank for a change. The asb is fine but it needs to be balanced with an armour type. Because then you make tanking homogenous and nobody likes that, right now you make choices about tanking and what you're going to tank, do i want to armor tank and get tons of utility, or do i want a really strong burst shield tank but NO ewar, ect. There need to be clearly defined pros and cons for each, right now there is, adding a fueled armor booster will kill that. That said the adaptive hardener is kinda crap, it could have been great but it came so incredibly pre nerfed that its not going to be the gap bridger that it should have been for armor tanks. To make it better they need to massively reduce the cap the adaptive hardener burns to the level of a DCU so that it can give that brick feeling to armor once it cycles up, and it could probably use a slightly faster cycle time.
The word you were looking for is actually homogeneous.
|
fpshacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
25
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:40:00 -
[50] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:fpshacker wrote:
ps. I don't really want to be in a goon pet alliance
And for my triple post: I guess you didn't want to be in a tournament competition alliance either right?
clearly no; Dayz is more fun anyway.
|
|
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
195
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:40:00 -
[51] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Not sure if you're serious....
And you? Are you serious? You are basing validity of your argument on comparing most dpsing pirate bs (that has like 50% more dps, better tracking, lower signature, higher speed, higher agility, 90% web +1 "free" mid) to plain tech 1 bs... Yes, because we're dealing with tanking, you know, the point of this argument and not any of what you listed, the DPS difference isn't important since both ships potentially out DPS the tanks of the other. Only the vindi can do what the Mael does with a single rep, even though the Mael uses two, AND gets tanking bonuses. The rest of the stats you listed mean nothing when dealing with the argument at hand which is about the strength of ASBs.
Astarte with 2x reps: 191 dps tanked. Sleipnir with 1x L-ASB: 298 dps tanked. Sleipnir with 1x XL-ASB: 708 dps tanked.
Clearly no balance issue at all. |
The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:Look at this match at the moment - Mildly Intoxicated - Raiden.
Those 3 Proteuses were unable to take down a webbed Sleipnir for a solid minute, and the logi was long dead. It's a bit silly. Did you mean those 3 proteus's that were rotating turns being jammed? At that point in the match, all that was left was the Sleipnir and two Harpies. If you think two Harpies are going to jam out 3 Dis. Seq. Proteuses - even have a significant amount of ECM fitted on a team which already has FOUR rooks then um.....what?
|
Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:43:00 -
[53] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Astarte with 2x reps: 191 dps tanked. Sleipnir with 1x L-ASB: 298 dps tanked. Sleipnir with 1x XL-ASB: 708 dps tanked.
Clearly no balance issue at all.
not particularly bothered by the reality of Sleip teams losing when up against good opponents (hint not you), are you? |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
925
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:44:00 -
[54] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:Look at this match at the moment - Mildly Intoxicated - Raiden.
Those 3 Proteuses were unable to take down a webbed Sleipnir for a solid minute, and the logi was long dead. It's a bit silly. Did you mean those 3 proteus's that were rotating turns being jammed? At that point in the match, all that was left was the Sleipnir and two Harpies. If you think two Harpies are going to jam out 3 Dis. Seq. Proteuses - even have a significant amount of ECM fitted on a team which already has FOUR rooks then um.....what?
If you think that 3 proteus's can be tanked by a single ASB then you're actually clueless.
There is no other words for it.
|
fpshacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
25
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:45:00 -
[55] - Quote
grath telkin, if you want to argue with people for the sake or arguing with people you may want to try reddit. |
The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:51:00 -
[56] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:Look at this match at the moment - Mildly Intoxicated - Raiden.
Those 3 Proteuses were unable to take down a webbed Sleipnir for a solid minute, and the logi was long dead. It's a bit silly. Did you mean those 3 proteus's that were rotating turns being jammed? At that point in the match, all that was left was the Sleipnir and two Harpies. If you think two Harpies are going to jam out 3 Dis. Seq. Proteuses - even have a significant amount of ECM fitted on a team which already has FOUR rooks then um.....what? If you think that 3 proteus's can be tanked by a single ASB then you're actually clueless. There is no other words for it. Not for an extended period of time, but if you were actually watching the stream you would have seen with your own eyes that the ASB Sleipnir, webbed, survived for at least 45 seconds under the attack of the 3 Proteuses. That's not me being clueless, that's me seeing something actually happen in the tournament and then using it.
Quote: What the hell are you even talking about, what does a 90%web have to do with a single rep vindi beating a dual xl asb maelstrom?
Are you smoking crack? Possibly riding the horse?
90% web will ensure that the Vindi gets good hits every time. If you consider it relevant or not, it doesn't really matter a huge deal either way. You're comparing a monster dps faction BS to a T1 BS and somehow trying to use that to support your claim.
|
The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:52:00 -
[57] - Quote
Faife wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Astarte with 2x reps: 191 dps tanked. Sleipnir with 1x L-ASB: 298 dps tanked. Sleipnir with 1x XL-ASB: 708 dps tanked.
Clearly no balance issue at all.
not particularly bothered by the reality of Sleip teams losing when up against good opponents (hint not you), are you? Well the 3 ASB Vargurs + Scimitar sure seemed to screw TEST over.
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
925
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:59:00 -
[58] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:
]Not for an extended period of time, but if you were actually watching the stream you would have seen with your own eyes that the ASB Sleipnir, webbed, survived for at least 45 seconds under the attack of the 3 Proteuses. That's not me being clueless, that's me seeing something actually happen in the tournament and then using it.
90% web will ensure that the Vindi gets good hits every time. If you consider it relevant or not, it doesn't really matter a huge deal either way. You're comparing a monster dps faction BS to a T1 BS and somehow trying to use that to support your claim.
OH GOD HE TANKED FOR A WHOLE 45 SECONDS WHAT A GOD DAMN TRAVESTY
1) Whats the dps difference between a Mael and a Vindi? 2) Why does the web matter, is the vindi trying to speed tank the Maelstrom? 3) Do you think its possible or a Vindi to speed tank BS's sized ACs at blaster ranges?
When those 2 bs fight, its pretty much a standing fist fight, and with the rep power the Mael puts out, coupled with its DPS, the expected winner is the Mael that can tank till it runs out of charges.
The web makes 0 difference in the fight.
But in reality, thats exactly what happens, the Mael burns through all his booster charges tanking the vindi, while the vindi burns a modes amount of cap boost charges keeping up with the Maels still considerable DPS.
The biggest advantage any ASB ship can get is having a huge cargo, in which case Vargs excel.
Anything else you attribute to the fight is arbitrary and of our own creation. |
cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers THORN Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:03:00 -
[59] - Quote
I've got to be honest with you I really like the tournament this year and the ASB is great.. Lots of the matches have come down to a ship either being bumped away to reload his booster, or when a ship has just barely made it away alive intime. I find this fun to watch. "Were not elitists, were just tired of fail" - The Sorn |
Celedris
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:04:00 -
[60] - Quote
They are strong, and probably a bit too powerful in the 6-man qualifying round, but they are fairly easy to counter in 12-mans.
They should probably be limited to 1 per ship on TQ in general, as dual-ASBs with a siege link alt (and potentially crystals) is pretty much broken in small-scale pvp. |
|
fpshacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
25
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:06:00 -
[61] - Quote
ASBs aren't the problem; Sleipnirs are. They benefit far too much from the ASB. Sleipnirs are too awesome compared to other command ships. They are fast, have monster tanks, good dps and are easy to fit in terms of grid/cpu.
The controlled AT environment works to make sleipnirs OP. Before the ASB was added they were great ships in the AT and were very commonly used, but now they have been blown completley out of proportion with how well they synergize with the ASB. |
The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:07:00 -
[62] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: Anything else you attribute to the fight is arbitrary and of our own creation.
There's a reason I didn't specifically state Maelstroms in my OP - because I've barely (if at all) seen them used this tournament. Vargur and Sleipnir will get t2 resists, and Cyclones are just powerful BC support because of how effective they are with the ASBs.
My point is - the Sleipnir tanked for at least 45 seconds under the 3 Proteuses and the Sleipnir had no fleet behind it. Now think about the Sleipnir having two others to apply some damage to the Proteuses. Now add a logi into the equation to keep the Sleipnirs alive while they reload. At least 1, maybe 2 Proteuses will die before the first Sleipnir goes down.
If the Sleipnirs go and **** an Oneiros first and then come back to the Proteus, the Proteuses have no logi and they are just waiting to be killed. If the Scimitar dies, the Sleipnirs can still hold their own for a significant amount of time because of the ASBs and t2 resists. |
ovenproofjet
The Illuminatii Mildly Intoxicated
64
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:08:00 -
[63] - Quote
I'd argue its one of the best mods CCP has come up with. In reality it just acts as a shield extender that just gives you your shield power in bursts |
Lexa Hellfury
Adversity.
108
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:10:00 -
[64] - Quote
I really don't understand why CCP thought adding more tank to the game was a good idea. People keep talking about how it's a buff to solo/small gang (<5) PvP, which is not the case at all. It limits solo PvP/small gang PvP horribly. If you try to PvP in non-ASB setups, do you know what your targets are? Other non-ASB ships. It's not quite so pronounced in ATX because of the single ASB, but on TQ where double ASB is the current FoTM you cannot engage an ASB setup with a non-ASB setup.
Hell, a double ASB Myrm with a 3 slot tank tanks twice as much as a triple rep Myrm with a six slot tank and the Myrm gets a bonus to armor tanking. Anybody who thinks this is adding options to the game is a goddamn retard. |
The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:11:00 -
[65] - Quote
ovenproofjet wrote:I'd argue its one of the best mods CCP has come up with. In reality it just acts as a shield extender that just gives you your shield power in bursts Which when used on a Sleipnir will give you over 15k extra HP in total. When taking resists into account, the dps on you significantly decreases - the same in calculations as your tank value significantly increasing. |
Lugalzagezi666
45
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:13:00 -
[66] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: What the hell are you even talking about, what does a 90%web have to do with a single rep vindi beating a dual xl asb maelstrom?
Ok guys, who is going to tell him about that angular velocity, sig radius and tracking stuff?
Dont bother mate. If he wanted to post a fair example, he would be comparing mael and hype... but you know, that would lead only to one thing - that hype needs 7 slots (2x lar, 2x eanm, dc, 2 cap boosters) to get the same tank as xlasb mael can do with 4 (dc, invul, 2x xlasb). Not counting being neutproof and getting more tank per cap.
This ofc does not match with his "point of view", so he will just keep repeating, that asbs are ok, because highest dps pirate battleship can kill asb fitted tech 1 battleship. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
195
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:19:00 -
[67] - Quote
Lexa Hellfury wrote:I really don't understand why CCP thought adding more tank to the game was a good idea. People keep talking about how it's a buff to solo/small gang (<5) PvP, which is not the case at all. It limits solo PvP/small gang PvP horribly. If you try to PvP in non-ASB setups, do you know what your targets are? Other non-ASB ships. It's not quite so pronounced in ATX because of the single ASB, but on TQ where double ASB is the current FoTM you cannot engage an ASB setup with a non-ASB setup.
Hell, a double ASB Myrm with a 3 slot tank tanks twice as much as a triple rep Myrm with a six slot tank and the Myrm gets a bonus to armor tanking. Anybody who thinks this is adding options to the game is a goddamn retard.
It's a balance blunder as big as the nano era, just more boring. And yea, eventually the charges run out. In the nano era, if you didn't fit for speed you could not compete in solo/small gang. I think ASB will result in the ASB era - if you don't fit ASBs you cannot expect to be competitive in solo/small gang. |
Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
80
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:25:00 -
[68] - Quote
fpshacker wrote:ASBs aren't the problem; Sleipnirs are. They benefit far too much from the ASB. Sleipnirs are too awesome compared to other command ships. They are fast, have monster tanks, good dps and are easy to fit in terms of grid/cpu.
The controlled AT environment works to make sleipnirs OP. Before the ASB was added they were great ships in the AT and were very commonly used, but now they have been blown completley out of proportion with how well they synergize with the ASB.
- said fpshacker before going back to couch, sitting down heavily, and once more thinking about how well he'd have done with his sleipnir had he not been kicked out for cheating. |
ShenanigansBus
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:31:00 -
[69] - Quote
Before crying nerf remove the drool drip pan, close mouth and breath through nose... Now that you look like you're capable of coherent thought, observe how the teams that lost with it were beaten. It's a new module and it requires different tactics on effectively countering it. Exploiting its weaknesses and not playing into its strength is how you win. This one ain't as simple as approaching and trying to overwhelm it with DPS. Are they really good? Yes. Are they impervious? If they were you wouldn't see teams running anything else. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
818
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:32:00 -
[70] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:It offers a load of flexibility which I think makes it pretty damn awesome in terms of getting different setups. obviously you don't have to nerf them into uselessness. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
925
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:33:00 -
[71] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: What the hell are you even talking about, what does a 90%web have to do with a single rep vindi beating a dual xl asb maelstrom?
Ok guys, who is going to tell him about that angular velocity, sig radius and tracking stuff? .
Hey dumbass, we're talking about 2 bs duking it out, those two factors dont really come into play when dealing with 2 bs standing toe to toe using close range weapons, hope this helps.
In fact at that range you come into negative tracking so standing perfectly still is your best bet.
|
fpshacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
25
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:35:00 -
[72] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: What the hell are you even talking about, what does a 90%web have to do with a single rep vindi beating a dual xl asb maelstrom?
Ok guys, who is going to tell him about that angular velocity, sig radius and tracking stuff? . Hey dumbass, we're talking about 2 bs duking it out, those two factors dont really come into play when dealing with 2 bs standing toe to toe using close range weapons, hope this helps. In fact at that range you come into negative tracking so standing perfectly still is your best bet.
yo you insulting this man because you don't understand angular displacement? |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
927
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:39:00 -
[73] - Quote
fpshacker wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: What the hell are you even talking about, what does a 90%web have to do with a single rep vindi beating a dual xl asb maelstrom?
Ok guys, who is going to tell him about that angular velocity, sig radius and tracking stuff? . Hey dumbass, we're talking about 2 bs duking it out, those two factors dont really come into play when dealing with 2 bs standing toe to toe using close range weapons, hope this helps. In fact at that range you come into negative tracking so standing perfectly still is your best bet. yo you insulting this man because you don't understand angular displacement?
im reminded of an episode of that 70's show:
No Eric, I'm insulting him because he's a dumbass
|
fpshacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
25
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:41:00 -
[74] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:fpshacker wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: What the hell are you even talking about, what does a 90%web have to do with a single rep vindi beating a dual xl asb maelstrom?
Ok guys, who is going to tell him about that angular velocity, sig radius and tracking stuff? . Hey dumbass, we're talking about 2 bs duking it out, those two factors dont really come into play when dealing with 2 bs standing toe to toe using close range weapons, hope this helps. In fact at that range you come into negative tracking so standing perfectly still is your best bet. yo you insulting this man because you don't understand angular displacement? im reminded of an episode of that 70's show: No Eric, I'm insulting him because he's a dumbass
+1 because that was a good episode
|
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
646
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:49:00 -
[75] - Quote
ASB should not be removed, what should be introduced is stronger armor reps (MAR + LAR). That would benefit active tanking in regular combat as well, as it is shieldbuffer and shieldtank is just superior in small scale combat in many scenarios. ASB's are fine tho, they have multiple innate weaknesses as is. We just need more love for (active) armor tank.
Edit; oh while tanking active tank mods, that goes for capital ships as well. Having CAR being more of a self-neuting mod (sucks enormous amount of cap) while barely repping anything at all is just silly. That being said, Triage would become super powerful instead.. so perhaps keep the current rep as a "triage-only-repper", while having another cap repper for out of triage.
Plenty to consider either way, but more love to active tanking is good, no matter what, ASB included. shiptoastin' liek a baws |
Lugalzagezi666
46
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 18:50:00 -
[76] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: Hey dumbass, we're talking about 2 bs duking it out, those two factors dont really come into play when dealing with 2 bs standing toe to toe using close range weapons, hope this helps. In fact at that range you come into negative tracking so standing perfectly still is your best bet.
Hey, dumbass. Vindi has like 50m/s advantage, 100m sig radius advantage and 0.15-0.20 ang/s tracking advantage. Assuming mael has web fittted - most dont. Thats not counting using 5th mid of vindi for something like tracking disruptor... (actually fun fact - xlasb in that mid without any resist mods bar dc tanks as much dps as lar with 2x eanms). And this will make noticeable difference in quality of hits... |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
928
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 19:15:00 -
[77] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Hey dumbass, we're talking about 2 bs duking it out, those two factors dont really come into play when dealing with 2 bs standing toe to toe using close range weapons, hope this helps. In fact at that range you come into negative tracking so standing perfectly still is your best bet.
Hey, dumbass. Vindi has like 50m/s advantage, 100m sig radius advantage and 0.15-0.20 ang/s tracking advantage. Assuming mael has web fittted - most dont. Thats not counting using 5th mid of vindi for something like tracking disruptor... (actually fun fact - xlasb in that mid without any resist mods bar dc tanks as much dps as lar with 2x eanms). And this will make noticeable difference in quality of hits...
You're one of those people who argues from crazy land then i see, while ignoring the obvious
Who cares how much faster one is than the other or what the sig is? Do you not understand that those 2 ships both get the most service from their guns by sitting nearly dead still blasting on one another? And then you break into crazy dual tanked fits and tracking disrupting Vindis...
Oh, and yea, the now standard Dual XL ASB Mael fit has a web, not that it really matters.
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
928
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 19:32:00 -
[78] - Quote
how do you beat an ASB sliep team: Field 7800 dps.
and hope they don't have 2 bhaalgorns....
that kite the hell out of you. |
Lugalzagezi666
46
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 20:00:00 -
[79] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: Who cares how much faster one is than the other or what the sig is? Do you not understand that those 2 ships both get the most service from their guns by sitting nearly dead still blasting on one another? And then you break into crazy dual tanked fits and tracking disrupting Vindis...
Oh, and yea, the now standard Dual XL ASB Mael fit has a web, not that it really matters.
You does not seem to understand the best position for vindi is to use its superior tracking, lower sig radius and speed advantage to mitigate as much dps as possible while not losing its own dps. Not just sitting still like a tard (but I agree that even hitting ctrl + space is great pvp achievment for some people).
And yes, I made a crazy point - xl asb with just damage control tanks the same amount of dps as lar with dc and 2x eanm (while needed to be powered by heavy cap booster and vulnerable to neuts).
Funny how no one uses active repped vindis in tornament when they are so strong. Teams with them would have it so easy considering dual asb tanks are not permitted. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
133
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 22:12:00 -
[80] - Quote
Lexa Hellfury wrote:I really don't understand why CCP thought adding more tank to the game was a good idea. People keep talking about how it's a buff to solo/small gang (<5) PvP, which is not the case at all. It limits solo PvP/small gang PvP horribly. If you try to PvP in non-ASB setups, do you know what your targets are? Other non-ASB ships. It's not quite so pronounced in ATX because of the single ASB, but on TQ where double ASB is the current FoTM you cannot engage an ASB setup with a non-ASB setup.
Hell, a double ASB Myrm with a 3 slot tank tanks twice as much as a triple rep Myrm with a six slot tank and the Myrm gets a bonus to armor tanking. Anybody who thinks this is adding options to the game is a goddamn retard.
Edit: Triple rep Myrm actually requires 8 slots if you count cap boosters.
Quoting this.
ASBs fit easier than regular shield boosters and boost twice as much, are immune to neuts, if your ship has capless guns, you don't even really need to fit a cap booster at all.
I for one will abuse ASBs until they get nerfed. |
|
B'reanna
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 23:00:00 -
[81] - Quote
from pls internal testing i can now say that: a properly run armour team just cant stand up to a properly run shield team. yes the vindi teams for example do alot of dmg but the shield teams always beat it.(thanks raivi about misleading everyone on the air) the reactive hardner helped with this a good deal in the 6 mans but most ship dont really benefit from it int he 12s. as most of the good teams seemed smart enough to kill the amour teams logi first. now i dont think they need to nerf asbs rather they just need to take a look at ACTIVE armour tanking. as it was we have several matches where armour logis ran asbs bc they tanked more with a non native tank. and this to me just seems wrong. that all said it was a great tourney this year. |
Dwym
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
46
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 23:07:00 -
[82] - Quote
I liked the ASB, but perhaps something similar for armor tanked ships would be in order.
And/or perhaps having an ASB fitted would reduce incoming remote reps? |
Kallie Rae
NorCorp Security AAA Citizens
16
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 23:16:00 -
[83] - Quote
Rather than nerfing ASB's, introduce something similar for armor tanking. |
Lexa Hellfury
Adversity.
111
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 23:20:00 -
[84] - Quote
Kallie Rae wrote:Rather than nerfing ASB's, introduce something similar for armor tanking.
Yes please continue adding more tank to the game, that way we can finally kill solo pvp. |
Markus Reese
Incertae Sedis Cascade Imminent
252
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 23:30:00 -
[85] - Quote
The asb doesn't need to be nerfed. What it needs is (said this before, but repeating) the cap cost of the cycle only modified when a charge is used. If using the smaller charge, it only cuts down the overall cap usage. The problem isn't the ASB, just how the mechanics are excecuted. If you want free charges, need the larger charge size. Want lots of charges, gotta use the smaller one. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
95
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 23:56:00 -
[86] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:It offers a load of flexibility which I think makes it pretty damn awesome in terms of getting different setups.
If you fly shield ships, yup. Amat victoria curam. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1667
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 03:31:00 -
[87] - Quote
Ryno Caval wrote:they already have a disadvantage with the 60sec reload and most of the number of charges is 10 regular cap boosters and then 12 or 13 navy cap boosters and what ends up happening when you run out of charges you are extremely weak tank and you tend to run outta cap extremely quickly so they already are balanced you just need to stop crying about the ASB however with some of the other inferno modules need buff like the reactive armor is weak as hell the target breaker is kinda wack maybe focus on the stuff that really is broken the ASB is fine the way it is it penalizes you for running outta charges and running the module and you run out of ammo rather quickly so you have to balance how much damage you are willing to take in the shields.
OH MY GOD!
You have managed to completely destroy most every rule of written English in one post.
I dare someone to read it aloud as written and not be gasping for air or doubled over in laughter before they are half way through.
Mr Epeen There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks |
Rengas
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
14
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 05:14:00 -
[88] - Quote
Our team fielded an armor setup vs. ASB Darkside gang and managed to win.
Did the same against Mildly Intoxicated.
Yes they offer some huge advantages, but they are still beatable with the right strategy. |
Tsubutai
The Tuskers
105
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 07:17:00 -
[89] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:Look at this match at the moment - Mildly Intoxicated - Raiden.
Those 3 Proteuses were unable to take down a webbed Sleipnir for a solid minute, and the logi was long dead. It's a bit silly. Did you mean those 3 proteus's that were rotating turns being jammed? Lets do some simple math shall we? Lets say a single XL ASB reps about 400 per cycle right? Lets say each proteus does 500 damage, thats low, I'm way undershooting the Damage value of the proteus but basically the 3 of them added up to nearly 1500 dps or more. Do you see how a single ASB wouldn't matter at all to those proteus's? I think you're confusing what you're seeing with whats actually happening and you just dont understand the mod. You're not factoring in the effects of the boosting ship's resists. A sleipnir heating its invuln will have >70% resists across the baord, so that ~400 shield boosted per second becomes 400/0.3 = 1452 dps tanked while the booster has charges. That almostly completely negates your three proteuses and their combined 1500 outgoing dps while the sleip has charges loaded. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
936
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 09:01:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:Look at this match at the moment - Mildly Intoxicated - Raiden.
Those 3 Proteuses were unable to take down a webbed Sleipnir for a solid minute, and the logi was long dead. It's a bit silly. Did you mean those 3 proteus's that were rotating turns being jammed? Lets do some simple math shall we? Lets say a single XL ASB reps about 400 per cycle right? Lets say each proteus does 500 damage, thats low, I'm way undershooting the Damage value of the proteus but basically the 3 of them added up to nearly 1500 dps or more. Do you see how a single ASB wouldn't matter at all to those proteus's? I think you're confusing what you're seeing with whats actually happening and you just dont understand the mod. You're not factoring in the effects of the boosting ship's resists. A sleipnir heating its invuln will have >70% resists across the baord, so that ~400 shield boosted per second becomes 400/0.3 = 1452 dps tanked while the booster has charges. That almostly completely negates your three proteuses and their combined 1500 outgoing dps while the sleip has charges loaded.
Ok but focus now, i said my dps estimate was low, even WITH your resisted number my lowballed estimate dps is beating it, in actual dps numbers you're looking at more like 600+, which would put it well over the dps threshold.
Like seriously, the spliep that died tanked about as much damage as a buffer tanked sliep did, and not just that one, if you check the damages that any dead ASB ship soaked, its about as much as a standard shield buffer ship might absorb before going down, +/- 5k in most instances.
|
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 09:39:00 -
[91] - Quote
I like what ASBs added to the game, less so for the Alliance Tournament. The fact there was an arbitrary restriction on the number you were allowed to fit speaks volumes.
That being said prior to ASB there was barely any reason not to default to an passive setup, the only ships that really seemed viable were ones with active tanking bonuses - and they still required at least 1 cap booster to last any reasonable amount of time.
I do think however that a lot of people are just looking at ASBs in terms of them being a direct (better) replacement for shield boosters, when in reality when you've run out of charges - which will happen on most ships sooner than you think - you're screwed. The cap usage on them when run dry is insane. |
Narkotik
Greek Death Squad Vera Cruz Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 10:15:00 -
[92] - Quote
Ancillary armor repairers. DO IT CCP. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
356
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 11:50:00 -
[93] - Quote
Kallie Rae wrote:Rather than nerfing ASB's, introduce something similar for armor tanking.
Narkotik wrote:Ancillary armor repairers. DO IT CCP.
shield? armor? Who the **** cares? Lets make them the same.
Lexa Hellfury wrote:Yes please continue adding more tank to the game, that way we can finally kill solo pvp. how is that? Both sides of a solo fight can field ASB fitted ships. |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
40
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 12:24:00 -
[94] - Quote
Dual tank FTW. |
Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 12:55:00 -
[95] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
xl asb tank on sleipnir - 2490 dps overheated xl asb tank on vargur - 2000 oh fitting - 200/500 reps from asb are neut proof
These numbers are very made up, good job.
Sorry Grath you have no clue at all. i'm flying that ASB x-large Sleipnir a lot and that thing is a beast on it's own. That is the raw data from EFT, Sleipnir with X-large ASB + 1x T2 Invul Field + 1x T2 Kinetic Rig + 1x DC TII
1) no overheat, no crystal, no booster, no blue pill Tank = 1278 omni, no overheat Tank = 1640 omni, overheat the ASB (and as you know you should always overheat it as it gives you 10% extra Shield HP bonus with heat) Tank = 1789 omni, overheat the ASB + Invul
2) Add a Shield Booster Tengu with just the resi link + mindlink Tank = 1820 omni, no overheat Tank = 2332 omni, overheat the ASB Tank = 2499 omni, overheat the ASB + Invul
3) Shield booster Tengu + Crystal Set Tank = 2755 omni, no overheat Tank = 3542 omni, overheat the ASB Tank = 3795 omni, overheat the ASB + Invul
4) Shield booster Tengu + Crystal Set + Standard Blue Pill No data as neither EFT or Pifa have implemented it yet and i'm to lazy to do it myself.
The single x-large ASB on any T2 Ship with resis and shield boost bonus is a beast, like on a Sleipnir, Vargur or Claymore. A single x-large ASB is nothing more than extended EHP, so the Sleipnir has roughly 200k EHP using all the 13 cap booster and not dieing before due to too much DPS or Alpha. On top of it it is nearly neut immune and completly neut immune if you change the invul to a shield ampli
A dual X-large T2 fit on a Vargur can reach over time about 1.4m EHP, cycling the ASB that's roughly the EHP of a Dreadnaught. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
716
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 13:04:00 -
[96] - Quote
Lexa Hellfury wrote:I really don't understand why CCP thought adding more tank to the game was a good idea. People keep talking about how it's a buff to solo/small gang (<5) PvP, which is not the case at all. It limits solo PvP/small gang PvP horribly. If you try to PvP in non-ASB setups, do you know what your targets are? Other non-ASB ships. It's not quite so pronounced in ATX because of the single ASB, but on TQ where double ASB is the current FoTM you cannot engage an ASB setup with a non-ASB setup.
Hell, a double ASB Myrm with a 3 slot tank tanks twice as much as a triple rep Myrm with a six slot tank and the Myrm gets a bonus to armor tanking. Anybody who thinks this is adding options to the game is a goddamn retard.
Edit: Triple rep Myrm actually requires 8 slots if you count cap boosters. Because we all know how CCP actually PvPs:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11653698
that's their scale. "Gamebreaking for small-scale and solo PvP? LOL N00b! Go blob like everyone else does!"
14 |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
22
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 14:37:00 -
[97] - Quote
Lexa Hellfury wrote:I really don't understand why CCP thought adding more tank to the game was a good idea. People keep talking about how it's a buff to solo/small gang (<5) PvP, which is not the case at all. It limits solo PvP/small gang PvP horribly. If you try to PvP in non-ASB setups, do you know what your targets are? Other non-ASB ships. It's not quite so pronounced in ATX because of the single ASB, but on TQ where double ASB is the current FoTM you cannot engage an ASB setup with a non-ASB setup.
Hell, a double ASB Myrm with a 3 slot tank tanks twice as much as a triple rep Myrm with a six slot tank and the Myrm gets a bonus to armor tanking. Anybody who thinks this is adding options to the game is a goddamn retard.
Edit: Triple rep Myrm actually requires 8 slots if you count cap boosters. I keep reading this. Why are you talking about ASBs like they are a direct replacement for vanilla shield boosters?
Granted while an ASB (or two) has charges it is formidable, but that is exactly why it was introduced. Active tanking was the red headed stepchild of PvP, even on bonused ships for the most part. You either went nuts with deadspace & crystals, and risked billions in doing so, or you sacrificed multiple slots just to keep the booster running for a remotely sensible period of time.
Now, with ASBs, you have a burst tank that actually has utility, and one that is unsustainable for long periods. Once you run out of cap charges, or once you use up the ones you have fitted in the case of a single ASB with sufficient incoming DPS, you're screwed. I don't know if you've noticed the cap usage on a dry ASB - it's massive, more than twice the activation cost of a T2 SB equivalent, it's barely useable once you've run out of cap charges - at which point it is just dead weight.
Perhaps there is tweaking to be done but unless everyone wants active tanking to return to the depths where it was only remotely effective on ships that had bonuses to it, and was (is) cap intensive and chronically vulnerable to neuting then we need to keep ASBs in some shape or form. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
493
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 14:55:00 -
[98] - Quote
Narkotik wrote:Ancillary armor repairers. DO IT CCP.
I don't think ccp should just make all tanking the same. It dumbs the game down. "You can either use a asb or a aab they do the same thing."
As for whether asbs are op well I'm definitely using them. But I fly solo allot. Are they better than a buffer tank in larger fleet fights? I'm not so sure.
Perhaps instead of making armor and shield tanking the identical, they should leave the asb for shields and buff the armor buffer tank fits. There are lots of ways they could do this. But again maybe not. I say give it some time. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 15:05:00 -
[99] - Quote
Durzel wrote: I keep reading this. Why are you talking about ASBs like they are a direct replacement for vanilla shield boosters?
Granted while an ASB (or two) has charges it is formidable, but that is exactly why it was introduced. Active tanking was the red headed stepchild of PvP, even on bonused ships for the most part. You either went nuts with deadspace & crystals, and risked billions in doing so, or you sacrificed multiple slots just to keep the booster running for a remotely sensible period of time.
Now, with ASBs, you have a burst tank that actually has utility, and one that is unsustainable for long periods. Once you run out of cap charges, or once you use up the ones you have fitted in the case of a single ASB with sufficient incoming DPS, you're screwed. I don't know if you've noticed the cap usage on a dry ASB - it's massive, more than twice the activation cost of a T2 SB equivalent, it's barely useable once you've run out of cap charges - at which point it is just dead weight.
Perhaps there is tweaking to be done but unless everyone wants active tanking to return to the depths where it was only remotely effective on ships that had bonuses to it, and was (is) cap intensive and chronically vulnerable to neuting then we need to keep ASBs in some shape or form.
Ok let me put this to you. Let's assume no crystals no tengu booster no blue pill.
Nightmare
Pith X type XL SB booster, 2 caldari navy invuls, em and 2 boost amps and a heavy cap booster to keep it running. This fit is like 3 billion isk I think.
3k dps peak tank, 2k sustained without even running guns.
2 X-L ASB, 1 t2 invul, 1 t2 em, 1 t2 shield boost amp. 2 slots spare for whatever you wish. Fit cost is about 100m.
1.6k dps tank on ONE booster. 3k on both. Plenty of cap left over for running guns, cannot be neuted out, have to wait for both boosters to run out at the same time. If you have less than 1.6k dps don't even bother, you will be waiting till their cargo is completly empty.
If you pimp it a little bit you get to over 2.2k sustained with one booster. 4k with two. Fit like 1.5b I think? Don't forget this is immune to cap warfare and his 2 mid slots spare.
Why would I use regular shield boosters anymore? For missions? |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
22
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 15:21:00 -
[100] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Durzel wrote: I keep reading this. Why are you talking about ASBs like they are a direct replacement for vanilla shield boosters?
Granted while an ASB (or two) has charges it is formidable, but that is exactly why it was introduced. Active tanking was the red headed stepchild of PvP, even on bonused ships for the most part. You either went nuts with deadspace & crystals, and risked billions in doing so, or you sacrificed multiple slots just to keep the booster running for a remotely sensible period of time.
Now, with ASBs, you have a burst tank that actually has utility, and one that is unsustainable for long periods. Once you run out of cap charges, or once you use up the ones you have fitted in the case of a single ASB with sufficient incoming DPS, you're screwed. I don't know if you've noticed the cap usage on a dry ASB - it's massive, more than twice the activation cost of a T2 SB equivalent, it's barely useable once you've run out of cap charges - at which point it is just dead weight.
Perhaps there is tweaking to be done but unless everyone wants active tanking to return to the depths where it was only remotely effective on ships that had bonuses to it, and was (is) cap intensive and chronically vulnerable to neuting then we need to keep ASBs in some shape or form.
Ok let me put this to you. Let's assume no crystals no tengu booster no blue pill. Nightmare Pith X type XL SB booster, 2 caldari navy invuls, em and 2 boost amps and a heavy cap booster to keep it running. This fit is like 3 billion isk I think. 3k dps peak tank, 2k sustained without even running guns. 2 X-L ASB, 1 t2 invul, 1 t2 em, 1 t2 shield boost amp. 2 slots spare for whatever you wish. Fit cost is about 100m. 1.6k dps tank on ONE booster. 3k on both. Plenty of cap left over for running guns, cannot be neuted out, have to wait for both boosters to run out at the same time. If you have less than 1.6k dps don't even bother, you will be waiting till their cargo is completly empty. If you pimp it a little bit you get to over 2.2k sustained with one booster. 4k with two. Fit like 1.5b I think? Don't forget this is immune to cap warfare and his 2 mid slots spare. Why would I use regular shield boosters anymore? For missions? Granted there seems to be little reason to use regular shield boosters outside missions, I'll give you that.
Nightmare has 665 m-¦ cargo space. If for the sake of argument we assume that all of that is consumed with cap charges - that's 55 charges which is 4 reloads (of 13) total, or 2 per booster. After 2 reloads you'd have 4 charges left in your cargo.
So, given each XLASB has 13 navy charges in, you're looking at eftectively 4 x 52 secs worth of boosting, 208 secs (3.46 minutes) of 1.6k tank before that Nightmare effectively can't tank anymore. It's even less if you run both boosters at the same time.
The question then becomes is it overpowered for a Nightmare to be able to tank 1.6k DPS for 208 seconds, i.e. 332,800 damage repped... vs a passive fit one.
... looking at those numbers and working them out as I went along, I'm inclined to change my point of view. |
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Mariner6
EVE University Ivy League
77
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 15:25:00 -
[101] - Quote
Narkotik wrote:Ancillary armor repairers. DO IT CCP. +1
It seems like a great idea. The current armor reps would be used for PVE applications. An ancillary armor rep would help balance out armor active tank which is already very disadvantaged and makes ships slow as hell. Seems that the only reason why some of the armor teams that beat the shield teams is the fact that it's a closed arena space and that they were held to one booster per ship. In PvP outside the tourney those shield ships just kite away forever, sport 2 boosters, and just own armor ships, particularly blaster boats.
This would add some nice option for all pilots not just shield boats, which last I looked already dominate this game.
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Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 15:27:00 -
[102] - Quote
There's a reason the only real effective use of armour ships in this tournament were the highest DPS single ships in the game (Vindis and Kronos) And they still lose to ASB Sleipnirs. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
493
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 15:35:00 -
[103] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Narkotik wrote:Ancillary armor repairers. DO IT CCP. +1 It seems like a great idea. The current armor reps would be used for PVE applications. An ancillary armor rep would help balance out armor active tank which is already very disadvantaged and makes ships slow as hell. Seems that the only reason why some of the armor teams that beat the shield teams is the fact that it's a closed arena space and that they were held to one booster per ship. In PvP outside the tourney those shield ships just kite away forever, sport 2 boosters, and just own armor ships, particularly blaster boats. This would add some nice option for all pilots not just shield boats, which last I looked already dominate this game.
The idea that armor and shield need to be equivalent at both passive and active tanking is a bad one.
Keep the two forms of tanking different.
I don't think shield ships dominate the game. If the asbs change that, then buff armor/nerf asbs but don't just make all the forms of tanking the same. That just dumbs the game down.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
199
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 15:37:00 -
[104] - Quote
Durzel wrote:
Now, with ASBs, you have a burst tank that actually has utility, and one that is unsustainable for long periods. Once you run out of cap charges, or once you use up the ones you have fitted in the case of a single ASB with sufficient incoming DPS, you're screwed. I don't know if you've noticed the cap usage on a dry ASB - it's massive, more than twice the activation cost of a T2 SB equivalent, it's barely useable once you've run out of cap charges - at which point it is just dead weight.
It's also uncounterable except with very high dps (generally more than a single ship can provide) other than waiting for charges to run out. This brings ships with ASB close to the status of solopwnmobiles. This is not fixing any problems but creating more of them. When the only counter to ASBs is fitting an ASB yourself or bringing more people then something is wrong.
What CCP should have done is give the players ways to increase their burst tank using cap-dependent modules. I suggested scripts for shield boosters / armor repairers that increase tank by a factor of 2-4 while decreasing cap efficiency. This would achieve similar results as ASBs but in a manner that can be countered and is more fluid. It also wouldn't leave armor out of the equation. |
Mariner6
EVE University Ivy League
77
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 15:49:00 -
[105] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Mariner6 wrote:Narkotik wrote:Ancillary armor repairers. DO IT CCP. +1 It seems like a great idea. The current armor reps would be used for PVE applications. An ancillary armor rep would help balance out armor active tank which is already very disadvantaged and makes ships slow as hell. Seems that the only reason why some of the armor teams that beat the shield teams is the fact that it's a closed arena space and that they were held to one booster per ship. In PvP outside the tourney those shield ships just kite away forever, sport 2 boosters, and just own armor ships, particularly blaster boats. This would add some nice option for all pilots not just shield boats, which last I looked already dominate this game. The idea that armor and shield need to be equivalent at both passive and active tanking is a bad one. Keep the two forms of tanking different. I don't think shield ships dominate the game. If the asbs change that, then buff armor/nerf asbs but don't just make all the forms of tanking the same. That just dumbs the game down.
How would adding this dumb the game down? Just the opposite. It would add more diversity vice everyone flying winmatar. The fact is that you can buffer tank armor or shield. You can active tank armor and shield. And you can passive tank shield. So how would adding another form of armor active tanking hurt? The only ship I ever see do it in PvP is the Mrym. And as someone mentioned you can get better performance currently on a shield tanked Mrym with the new mods. That's a bit ridiculous no? Plus armor tanks have to operate in neut range which makes it even more challenging. Shield tanks don't have to as they can dictate range. So now they have absoultely the best of all worlds.
|
B'reanna
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 16:08:00 -
[106] - Quote
here the thing about asbs that some people here seemed to not have mentioned. On alot of ships they end up taking the place of extenders. So while impractical for an arena 250km in diameter verry high alpha ships can kill asb fit ships simply by doing enough dmg with each volley to burnt through the shields. In the 6 mans esp when looking at asb logis pl tested a couple setups who basic purpose was to 1 or 2 shot the other teams asb logi bc it only had about 10-12k ehp. on tq this isnt so much of an issue. So while yes you can come up with some insane tank numbers with asbs on say a 2 on 2 fight if one side is in say dual asb fit vs an alpha/kite fit. depending on which ships they are, if they are running dual asbs on one side and kiting alpha ships on the other it just a matter of a few shots to kill one of the other sides ships bc each time you shot yes they are at full shield but you take chunks out of the armor/hull. So while it is verry good in small gang stuff, it doesn't scale well. As ive said the issue is not the asb but the fact that armour even before the asb was **** for active tanking and the ships that had active tanking armour bonuses where seldom used. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
493
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 16:42:00 -
[107] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Cearain wrote:Mariner6 wrote:Narkotik wrote:Ancillary armor repairers. DO IT CCP. +1 It seems like a great idea. The current armor reps would be used for PVE applications. An ancillary armor rep would help balance out armor active tank which is already very disadvantaged and makes ships slow as hell. Seems that the only reason why some of the armor teams that beat the shield teams is the fact that it's a closed arena space and that they were held to one booster per ship. In PvP outside the tourney those shield ships just kite away forever, sport 2 boosters, and just own armor ships, particularly blaster boats. This would add some nice option for all pilots not just shield boats, which last I looked already dominate this game. The idea that armor and shield need to be equivalent at both passive and active tanking is a bad one. Keep the two forms of tanking different. I don't think shield ships dominate the game. If the asbs change that, then buff armor/nerf asbs but don't just make all the forms of tanking the same. That just dumbs the game down. How would adding this dumb the game down? Just the opposite. It would add more diversity vice everyone flying winmatar. The fact is that you can buffer tank armor or shield. You can active tank armor and shield. And you can passive tank shield. So how would adding another form of armor active tanking hurt? The only ship, other than frigs, I ever see do it in PvP is the Mrym. And as someone mentioned you can get better performance currently on a shield tanked Mrym with the new mods. That's a bit ridiculous no? Plus armor tanks have to operate in neut range which makes it even more challenging. Shield tanks don't have to as they can dictate range. So now they have absoultely the best of all worlds.
It would dumb it down by making it is the same thing whether you active armor tank or shield tank. The passive shield tank is very different than the passive armor tank. The passive armor tank gives more hp but slows you down.
But the active tanks are pretty similar. There is a difference in cap use and time when you get the rep but the fact that you load cap boosters into an ancillary booster would pretty much eliminate one of the few differences. I just think ccp should look for balance through diverse means instead of making the same module for armor or shield. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 17:02:00 -
[108] - Quote
B'reanna wrote:here the thing about asbs that some people here seemed to not have mentioned. On alot of ships they end up taking the place of extenders. So while impractical for an arena 250km in diameter verry high alpha ships can kill asb fit ships simply by doing enough dmg with each volley to burnt through the shields. In the 6 mans esp when looking at asb logis pl tested a couple setups who basic purpose was to 1 or 2 shot the other teams asb logi bc it only had about 10-12k ehp. on tq this isnt so much of an issue. So while yes you can come up with some insane tank numbers with asbs on say a 2 on 2 fight if one side is in say dual asb fit vs an alpha/kite fit. depending on which ships they are, if they are running dual asbs on one side and kiting alpha ships on the other it just a matter of a few shots to kill one of the other sides ships bc each time you shot yes they are at full shield but you take chunks out of the armor/hull. So while it is verry good in small gang stuff, it doesn't scale well. As ive said the issue is not the asb but the fact that armour even before the asb was **** for active tanking and the ships that had active tanking armour bonuses where seldom used.
Absolutly correct, the new ASB is great you get much more bang for your buck but on the other hand it makes any other sort of active tanking in small/med scale nearly obsolete. Just imagine a nano Tempest, 100MN Tengu etc with x-large ASB, kiting ships control range and won't get that much damage, the ASB extend your EHP to amounts that aren't funny. Some Numbers: A Sleipnir has with 1 x-large ASB about 200k EHP using all the 13 booster A Cane has with 1 x-large ASB about 100k EHP using all the 13 booster and so on. The hard counter to that will be a Blob or high Alpha/DPS Tier 3 BC and god i hate those ships already. In fact the Tier 3 BC will be soon a major problem as the only counter to them are the same numbers of Tier 3 BC (or in 0.0 sniper BS with bubbling the Tier 3) or expansive Tech 3 CR which in case your opponent will happily trade vs his cheap Tier 3 BC. Tier 3 vs Tier 3 fights aren't fun fights it's just stupid get range, avoid transversal and hit F1 and even more worrying it's bringing the numbers matter to small/med scale. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
716
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 17:15:00 -
[109] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:It offers a load of flexibility which I think makes it pretty damn awesome in terms of getting different setups. Why restrict it to just one per ship then?
Let's have even more 'flexibility' next time, just like we're allowed at TQ. 14 |
Mariner6
EVE University Ivy League
77
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 17:30:00 -
[110] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Mariner6 wrote:Cearain wrote:[quote=Mariner6][quote=Narkotik]Ancillary armor repairers. DO IT CCP. +1 It seems like a great idea. The current armor reps would be used for PVE applications. An ancillary armor rep would help balance out armor active tank which is already very disadvantaged and makes ships slow as hell. Seems that the only reason why some of the armor teams that beat the shield teams is the fact that it's a closed arena space and that they were held to one booster per ship. In PvP outside the tourney those shield ships just kite away forever, sport 2 boosters, and just own armor ships, particularly blaster boats. This would add some nice option for all pilots not just shield boats, which last I looked already dominate this game. It would dumb it down by making it is the same thing whether you active armor tank or shield tank. The passive shield tank is very different than the passive armor tank. The passive armor tank gives more hp but slows you down. But the active tanks are pretty similar. There is a difference in cap use and time when you get the rep but the fact that you load cap boosters into an ancillary booster would pretty much eliminate one of the few differences. I just think ccp should look for balance through diverse means instead of making the same module for armor or shield.
There is no such thing as a armor passive tank. Passive tank refers only to a shield's natural regeneration. This can be increased with various mods and rigs. The Mrym for example can field a particularly impressive passive shield tank. As armor does not regenerate on its own its nonsensical.
Armor can be a buffer tank (plates, trimarks, resist) or it can be active (armor reps, resist, respective rigs).
Sheild has more options. Any shield tank will have a passive aspect though depending on the set up can be negligible. So a shield can have buffer (extenders, resists, rigs), passive (rechargers, rigs, and that low slot mod whose name escapes me) and active.
So bottom line is that armor repping currently sucks. The worst part about it is that the ships that have an armor rep bonus are all meant to fight close in. So that's in neut range. Further you have to sacrifice an incredible amount of slots to make it work. Your also slow as hell. So you get scrammed, webbed, neuted, can't control range and die. The Mrym is the only viable BC armor repper and has to sacrifice 2 mid slots just to make it work. And with smart pilots you'll stuggle to beat the neut cycle with you cap boosters. Now I can get better performance out of aux shield boosters with far less commitment of slots. Even on the Mrym that is freaking bonused for armor repping! You don't see a problem with this?
So NO having a viable armor repping mod would not dumb the game down. CCP came up with a great mod as its un neutable. Unfortunately they gave it to winmatar because that is what everyone flies.
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Bacchanalian
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
71
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 18:24:00 -
[111] - Quote
Hey gies ASB Vargur setups are unkillable just watch the fina-oh. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
202
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:18:00 -
[112] - Quote
Bacchanalian wrote:Hey gies ASB Vargur setups are unkillable just watch the fina-oh.
Nano ships were not overpowered because they were killable. That's your logic right there.
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Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:36:00 -
[113] - Quote
Bacchanalian wrote:Hey gies ASB Vargur setups are unkillable just watch the fina-oh.
What killed them? ASB Sleipnirs. Which are basically the same thing. Hope that helps.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
654
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:02:00 -
[114] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Lexa Hellfury wrote:I really don't understand why CCP thought adding more tank to the game was a good idea. People keep talking about how it's a buff to solo/small gang (<5) PvP, which is not the case at all. It limits solo PvP/small gang PvP horribly. If you try to PvP in non-ASB setups, do you know what your targets are? Other non-ASB ships. It's not quite so pronounced in ATX because of the single ASB, but on TQ where double ASB is the current FoTM you cannot engage an ASB setup with a non-ASB setup.
Hell, a double ASB Myrm with a 3 slot tank tanks twice as much as a triple rep Myrm with a six slot tank and the Myrm gets a bonus to armor tanking. Anybody who thinks this is adding options to the game is a goddamn retard.
Edit: Triple rep Myrm actually requires 8 slots if you count cap boosters. Because we all know how CCP actually PvPs: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11653698that's their scale. "Gamebreaking for small-scale and solo PvP? LOL N00b! Go blob like everyone else does!"
Took me a days thinking about this, but I think you both are quite right on this matter tbh. Personally I like the idea of going out solo, active tanking. In fact, I love it. But I wonder if that repping power isn't too powerful as is. Was just talking to a guy on Skype right now, and he's so excited over getting into the Sleipnir. Myself having seen what it did pre-rig, pre-hp buff days, and sitting with multiple Command Ship 5-characters.. I just feel it's a weak ship today. And the main culprit in this I believe is the extra tank power added by rigs and the hp boost.
Perhaps it's about time to reduce hp overboard on all ships. And the balance between active tanking shield vs armor, should be looked at. shiptoastin' liek a baws |
Lexa Hellfury
Adversity.
113
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 02:47:00 -
[115] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:. Lexa Hellfury wrote:Yes please continue adding more tank to the game, that way we can finally kill solo pvp. how is that? Both sides of a solo fight can field ASB fitted ships.
Ah yes the age old argument.
2007: Nano isn't broken because you can bring your own nano 2008: ECM isn't broken because you can bring your own ECM 2010: Logistics aren't broken because you can bring your own logistics 2011: t3 links aren't broken because you can bring your own t3 links 2012: ASBs aren't broken because you can bring your own ASB
If the only way to counter a module is to bring one of your own, then that module is not balanced. Everything in Eve has a counter. ASBs, atm, do not. And no, "bring more dudes" is not a counter. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
939
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 03:42:00 -
[116] - Quote
Lexa Hellfury wrote:
If the only way to counter a module is to bring one of your own, then that module is not balanced.
Its not the only counter but the eve populace at large will simply sit and cry about it until somebody shows them how to beat it since they're too lazy to work it out on their own.
Everybody else just puts in testing and practice on the test server until they understand what the mod can and can't do.
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Kenshaiso
Tainted Dragons Sinewave Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 07:56:00 -
[117] - Quote
what i think would help solve the issue is having an armour module that works like the ASB, although the most useful armour tankers dont get the bonus that ships like the vargur get. I love the ASB, I dont think its broken I think armour tanking in general needs some love. Just my two cents worth anyway |
Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 08:48:00 -
[118] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Lexa Hellfury wrote:
If the only way to counter a module is to bring one of your own, then that module is not balanced.
Its not the only counter but the eve populace at large will simply sit and cry about it until somebody shows them how to beat it since they're too lazy to work it out on their own. Everybody else just puts in testing and practice on the test server until they understand what the mod can and can't do.
The counter is fairly obvious, bring enough DPS to just chew through the tank. That is nothing new and every active setup has the same problem. The major difference between ASB and the old fashioned way is you can be completely neut immune. ASB is limited to small scale and med scale up to 20, the big blob warfare in 0.0 don't have to bother about the ASB.
The major problem with ASB are x-large dual fits on BS, take the Maelstrom as example and watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMU2SsF0IZk&feature=youtu.be at the very end. Granted Kovorix is no newb :) and he knows how to fight but you can't take on so many enemies with an old fashioned Maelstrom as the neuts would have killed him rather quick.
Anyway i like the ASB a lot but i don't want to be small and med scale to develop into blob warfare as the hard counter to ASB is the blob. Btw. the ASB is making the Curse and other neut ships useless for small scale fights. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
939
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 08:56:00 -
[119] - Quote
Jori McKie wrote:Btw. the ASB is making the Curse and other neut ships useless for small scale fights.
The curse was made useless by t2 gank linked 90km webs and points while the curses primary weapon (neuts) are limited to 40km.
But feel free to keep blaming everything on the ASB
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Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 09:29:00 -
[120] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Jori McKie wrote:Btw. the ASB is making the Curse and other neut ships useless for small scale fights. The curse was made useless by t2 gan linked 90km webs and points while the curses primary weapon (neuts) are limited to 40km. But feel free to keep blaming everything on the ASB
Sure the Curse is often the primary in small scale fights but it has a major role if you face a skirmish gang with say 2 to 4 Scimis. With a dampener Drake+Curse setup you can beat those skirmish logi setup without needing any logis on your own. I don't have to explain to you what happens to the Rapier, Huginn and the odd Loki in such fights, they are dampned/neuted to hell and in case of the Rapier, Huginn primary too. Of course you have to make sure some scimis are dampned too, to beat the RR. After that it's a clean up job, damp and neut the Scimis either forcing them out of the fight or into your own optimal range.
The ASB will make small scale skirmish logi setups history, except the standard Drake+Scimi and so the Curse. |
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
939
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 09:39:00 -
[121] - Quote
Jori McKie wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Jori McKie wrote:Btw. the ASB is making the Curse and other neut ships useless for small scale fights. The curse was made useless by t2 gan linked 90km webs and points while the curses primary weapon (neuts) are limited to 40km. But feel free to keep blaming everything on the ASB Sure the Curse is often the primary in small scale fights but it has a major role if you face a skirmish gang with say 2 to 4 Scimis. With a dampener Drake+Curse setup you can beat those skirmish logi setup without needing any logis on your own. I don't have to explain to you what happens to the Rapier, Huginn and the odd Loki in such fights, they are dampned/neuted to hell and in case of the Rapier, Huginn primary too. Of course you have to make sure some scimis are dampned too, to beat the RR. After that it's a clean up job, damp and neut the Scimis either forcing them out of the fight or into your own optimal range. The ASB will make small scale skirmish logi setups history, except the standard Drake+Scimi and so the Curse.
I knew this was all fantasy the second you started talking about the mass use of damps.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
718
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 10:33:00 -
[122] - Quote
Lexa Hellfury wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:. Lexa Hellfury wrote:Yes please continue adding more tank to the game, that way we can finally kill solo pvp. how is that? Both sides of a solo fight can field ASB fitted ships. Ah yes the age old argument. 2007: Nano isn't broken because you can bring your own nano 2008: ECM isn't broken because you can bring your own ECM 2010: Logistics aren't broken because you can bring your own logistics 2011: t3 links aren't broken because you can bring your own t3 links 2012: ASBs aren't broken because you can bring your own ASB If the only way to counter a module is to bring one of your own, then that module is not balanced. Everything in Eve has a counter. ASBs, atm, do not. And no, "bring more dudes" is not a counter. You should have put Titans and hot-dropping somewhere in between 14 |
Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 10:43:00 -
[123] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Jori McKie wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Jori McKie wrote:Btw. the ASB is making the Curse and other neut ships useless for small scale fights. The curse was made useless by t2 gan linked 90km webs and points while the curses primary weapon (neuts) are limited to 40km. But feel free to keep blaming everything on the ASB Sure the Curse is often the primary in small scale fights but it has a major role if you face a skirmish gang with say 2 to 4 Scimis. With a dampener Drake+Curse setup you can beat those skirmish logi setup without needing any logis on your own. I don't have to explain to you what happens to the Rapier, Huginn and the odd Loki in such fights, they are dampned/neuted to hell and in case of the Rapier, Huginn primary too. Of course you have to make sure some scimis are dampned too, to beat the RR. After that it's a clean up job, damp and neut the Scimis either forcing them out of the fight or into your own optimal range. The ASB will make small scale skirmish logi setups history, except the standard Drake+Scimi and so the Curse. I knew this was all fantasy the second you started talking about the mass use of damps.
I guess we have a different meaning when we talk about small scale that is the only excuse i can think of reading your statement. Welcome to the world of small scale where things work differently. |
Lexa Hellfury
Adversity.
118
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 13:59:00 -
[124] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Lexa Hellfury wrote:
If the only way to counter a module is to bring one of your own, then that module is not balanced.
Its not the only counter but the eve populace at large will simply sit and cry about it until somebody shows them how to beat it since they're too lazy to work it out on their own. Everybody else just puts in testing and practice on the test server until they understand what the mod can and can't do.
Sorry, "lol l2p noob" is not actually a valid counter-argument, please try again. If you have some magical counter to dual-ASB fit ships other than "bring 3000 dps" (otherwise known as 4-5 people), I would love to hear it. Otherwise "I have a counter but I can't tell you what it is" isn't gonna fly. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
494
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 14:08:00 -
[125] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Cearain wrote:[quote=Mariner6][quote=Cearain]
It would dumb it down by making it is the same thing whether you active armor tank or shield tank. The passive shield tank is very different than the passive armor tank. The passive armor tank gives more hp but slows you down.
But the active tanks are pretty similar. There is a difference in cap use and time when you get the rep but the fact that you load cap boosters into an ancillary booster would pretty much eliminate one of the few differences. I just think ccp should look for balance through diverse means instead of making the same module for armor or shield. There is no such thing as a armor passive tank. Passive tank refers only to a shield's natural regeneration. This can be increased with various mods and rigs. The Mrym for example can field a particularly impressive passive shield tank. As armor does not regenerate on its own its nonsensical. Armor can be a buffer tank (plates, trimarks, resist) or it can be active (armor reps, resist, respective rigs). Sheild has more options. Any shield tank will have a passive aspect though depending on the set up can be negligible. So a shield can have buffer (extenders, resists, rigs), passive (rechargers, rigs, and that low slot mod whose name escapes me) and active. So bottom line is that armor repping currently sucks. The worst part about it is that the ships that have an armor rep bonus are all meant to fight close in. So that's in neut range. Further you have to sacrifice an incredible amount of slots to make it work. Your also slow as hell. So you get scrammed, webbed, neuted, can't control range and die. The Mrym is the only viable BC armor repper and has to sacrifice 2 mid slots just to make it work. And with smart pilots you'll stuggle to beat the neut cycle with you cap boosters. Now I can get better performance out of aux shield boosters with far less commitment of slots. Even on the Mrym that is freaking bonused for armor repping! You don't see a problem with this? So NO having a viable armor repping mod would not dumb the game down. CCP came up with a great mod as its un neutable. Unfortunately they gave it to winmatar because that is what everyone flies.
I think you are a bit too worked up about semantics. I disagree with your narrow catagorizations. Slaves are passive tank implants even though they add to armor which does not regenerate. But whatever.
There were quite a few viable active armor tank pvp ships. Triple rep and dual rep myrm. The dual rep did not require 2 midslots. Dual rep incursus, dual rep sfi, and various dominix fits not to mention all the tech 2 amarr and gallente ships.
The issue now is really whether the ancillary shield booster is so overpowered that all these fits are obsolete. I don't think the proper response is to say well then lets give armor ships an equally overpowered module so armor and shield are the same!
I think that just tramples the nuanced considerations in how you fit ships and gives you the dumbed down choice of if under 10 in your gang then "here ancillary shield booster or ancillary armor booster take your pick they are the same."
Like I said right now as a mainly solo pilot I use the asbs allot. And there will need to be some fine tuning either with the mod directly or with how armor tanking works. But just creating and equally overpowered armor tanking mod is hamfisted and will dumb the game down. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
718
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 14:15:00 -
[126] - Quote
Cearain wrote: I don't think the proper response is to say well then lets give armor ships an equally overpowered module so armor and shield are the same!
So armour and shield were the same before ASB release? Really?
By the way, introduction of damage mods for drones was basically the same case. For some reason I haven't seen people whinning of drones turning into the same thing as turrets or missiles.
14 |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
494
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 14:30:00 -
[127] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Cearain wrote: I don't think the proper response is to say well then lets give armor ships an equally overpowered module so armor and shield are the same!
So armour and shield were the same before ASB release? Really? ...
Thats my point they weren't the same. They both were viable even though they were different.
But more importantly there was a variety of ways to tank the ships within the broad catagories of "armor tank" and "shield tank." Adding an over powered ancillary armor booster reduces all that variety to one of 2 choices 1) ASB fit or 2)AAB fit. All the various other fits can be thrown out the window along with the diversity in fitting ships in eve.
The problem is now that the asb may be overpowered making pretty much everything else obsolete for small fights. The solution is not to just say well lets just **** on all other forms of tanking by making an ancillary armor booster that does the same thing as the asb. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
718
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 14:56:00 -
[128] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:Cearain wrote: I don't think the proper response is to say well then lets give armor ships an equally overpowered module so armor and shield are the same!
So armour and shield were the same before ASB release? Really? ... But more importantly there was a variety of ways to tank the ships within the broad catagories of "armor tank" and "shield tank." Adding an over powered ancillary armor booster reduces all that variety to one of 2 choices 1) ASB fit or 2)AAB fit. All the various other fits can be thrown out the window along with the diversity in fitting ships in eve. Yeah, that's correct.
But since a CCPer at the front page told us these ABSs provide 'flexibility' our best bet now is asking for armour to become as 'flexible' as shield
Also, I suggest them introducing Ancilliary Titans - cheap-ass ships with a portal and system-wide bonuses. That would be really fun and make our game even more 'flexible' 14 |
DruzidelCastro
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 18:03:00 -
[129] - Quote
Dual ASB fits need some serious fixing. There's no way anyone (Grath included) can try to pass them off as something that promotes solo/small gang fights. I wrote a ridiculously long post about what I tested on Sisi with Tinkeng (PL's logi pilot for every match) but it was too much so here's the tl;dr -
Corner A: Vindicator HG slaves, T2 trimarks, Single X-type LAR, A-type EANM, Reactive hardener, 1600 plate, damage control, two faction magstabs with a legion giving bonuses
Corner B: Maelstrom Dual ASBs, a single T2 invuln, a single T2 boost amp, LG crystals, damage control, 2x anti-EM rigs/1x anti-thermal, while receiving no gang bonuses.
That vindicator does 1350ish turret DPS, +250 from drones for 1600. Overloading the guns brings it up to 1800 with drones. Long story short, the vindicator won. However, it took until the maelstrom ran completely out of navy 400's which was over 5 minutes of punching eachother in the face. The mail lists the damage taken as 496,000 which was from the vindicator overloading two separate stacks of neutrons and 5 berserkers that were never killed. The vindicator ended with 50% armor and only 6 navy cap booster 800s left - the maelstrom never overloaded it's guns or lost his drones.
The fact that the multi-billion isk deadspace/faction fit vindicator had as much trouble as it did killing a junk T2 fit maelstrom whose mods couldn't have cost more than 30mil is simply astounding to me. ****, we probably could have called it even by giving the maelstrom a blockade runner alt who dropped more boosters... although it most likely would never have died then. |
Mariner6
EVE University Ivy League
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 18:50:00 -
[130] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Mariner6 wrote:[quote=Cearain][quote=Mariner6][quote=Cearain]
I think you are a bit too worked up about semantics. I disagree with your narrow catagorizations. Slaves are passive tank implants even though they add to armor which does not regenerate. But whatever. There were quite a few viable active armor tank pvp ships. Triple rep and dual rep myrm. The dual rep did not require 2 midslots. Dual rep incursus, dual rep sfi, and various dominix fits not to mention all the tech 2 amarr and gallente ships. The issue now is really whether the ancillary shield booster is so overpowered that all these fits are obsolete. I don't think the proper response is to say well then lets give armor ships an equally overpowered module so armor and shield are the same! I think that just tramples the nuanced considerations in how you fit ships and gives you the dumbed down choice of if under 10 in your gang then "ancillary shield booster or ancillary armor booster take your pick they are the same." Like I said right now as a mainly solo pilot I use the asbs allot. And there will need to be some fine tuning either with the mod directly or with how armor tanking works. But just creating and equally overpowered armor tanking mod is hamfisted and will dumb the game down.
Ok, obviously we are not going to agree on it but nor do I feel like having a pissing match about it. I don't think it will dumb the game down, but you know what if that's what you want to call it, then fine. Dumb the game down and give armor ships a more viable armor rep system. It would be great to have a module for armor tanking ships that would provide boosts without also having to sacrifice mid slots to cap boosters and also suffer the danger of neuting. Its the only way to balance things if the ASB is going to remain as it is. Which I'm fine with.
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Ristlin Wakefield
Wakefield-Dukovsky Conglomerate Eternal Pretorian Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:26:00 -
[131] - Quote
DruzidelCastro wrote:Dual ASB fits need some serious fixing. There's no way anyone (Grath included) can try to pass them off as something that promotes solo/small gang fights. I wrote a ridiculously long post about what I tested on Sisi with Tinkeng (PL's logi pilot for every match) but it was too much so here's the tl;dr -
Corner A: Vindicator HG slaves, T2 trimarks, Single X-type LAR, A-type EANM, Reactive hardener, 1600 plate, damage control, two faction magstabs with a legion giving bonuses
Corner B: Maelstrom Dual ASBs, a single T2 invuln, a single T2 boost amp, LG crystals, damage control, 2x anti-EM rigs/1x anti-thermal, while receiving no gang bonuses.
That vindicator does 1350ish turret DPS, +250 from drones for 1600. Overloading the guns brings it up to 1800 with drones. Long story short, the vindicator won. However, it took until the maelstrom ran completely out of navy 400's which was over 5 minutes of punching eachother in the face. The mail lists the damage taken as 496,000 which was from the vindicator overloading two separate stacks of neutrons and 5 berserkers that were never killed. The vindicator ended with 50% armor and only 6 navy cap booster 800s left - the maelstrom never overloaded it's guns or lost his drones.
The fact that the multi-billion isk deadspace/faction fit vindicator had as much trouble as it did killing a junk T2 fit maelstrom whose mods couldn't have cost more than 30mil is simply astounding to me. ****, we probably could have called it even by giving the maelstrom a blockade runner alt who dropped more boosters... although it most likely would never have died then.
I see your point, but couldn't an active armor tank battleship with cap boosters pull off a similar result? |
DruzidelCastro
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:35:00 -
[132] - Quote
Ristlin Wakefield wrote:I see your point, but couldn't an active armor tank battleship with cap boosters pull off a similar result?
Not for 30mil worth of mods, giving up all of your damage, and still dying to neuts, no. |
Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe R.E.P.O.
35
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:38:00 -
[133] - Quote
Personally, I would increase the powergrid usage of ASB by 5% or so. It would make the cap booster+ ASB fittings or double ASB fits more difficult. |
B'reanna
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:39:00 -
[134] - Quote
as i already said the issue is with active armour tanks not the asb. but y'all are going in circles in here so gl with that |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:50:00 -
[135] - Quote
Ristlin Wakefield wrote:
I see your point, but couldn't an active armor tank battleship with cap boosters pull off a similar result?
Kronos. 2 LAR 2 EANM 1 EXP 1 DCU 1 MagStab 2 Aux Nano Pumps - No Implants or boosters
1000 dps tanked. For 11 minutes or until booster runs out (or you get neuted rofl.)
Kronos 2 X-Type LAR 2 A-Type EANM 1 X-Type EXP 1 DCU 1 MagStab 1 Nanobot II 1 Aux Nano II - No Implants or boosters
3k tanked. 1.7k sustained. (Overloaded - 2m30) Cap does not do so well (like 2 min with 1 cap booster) Can be neuted out.
Maelstrom X-L ASB 1 Invul 1 Boost Amp 1 Spare X-L ASB 1 DCU 2 EM Rigs 1 Therm Rig - No Implants or boosters.
Upwards of 1.7k dps tanked on one booster. 3.4k on both boosters.
Note the Maelstrom tanked 700 dps more with a t2 fit vs a t2 fit Kronos (which is a t2 ship with same 7.5 percent bonus) and also does so with only 3 mid slots, 4 if you count the second ASB plus a DCU. The kronos is using 5 lows plus a DCU.
Maelstrom X-L ASB 1 A-Type Invul 1 X-Type Boost Amp 1 Spare X-L ASB 2 EM T2 Rigs 1 Therm T2 Rig - No Implants or boosters.
3k tanked on one booster. 6k tanked on two boosters.
Note Maelstrom only needed 2 faction mods and a couple of cheap resistance rigs to hit 3k tanked. Kronos fit is upwards of 5B IIRC. Maelstrom fit is about 2B I think.
THIS IS NOT EVEN INCLUDING CRYSTALS. |
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
63
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:14:00 -
[136] - Quote
If only someone had warned us about this ahead of time.
Oh wait |
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:24:00 -
[137] - Quote
Faffywaffy wrote:If only someone had warned us about this ahead of time. Ohwait
hmm, surprisingly i dont remember a lot of armor teams on the final day..
as much as i love the new ASB, it's starting to seem overpowered, or armor is now underpowered with it, armor tanking setups have use mostly in missions, in pvp, the team with no ASB looses
at the very least, two ASB setups are in dire need of some attention i'm pretty sure that if two ASB's per ship had not been forbidden, hardly anyone would have brought only one |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
940
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:30:00 -
[138] - Quote
Druz is biased and hates shield tankers
Dez is mad his falcon alt doesn't matter |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
940
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:38:00 -
[139] - Quote
This is funny, people are acting like some great sea of 1v1s are being ruined by ASBs.
Its a myth, everybody blobs, and the ASB is the small gang blob equalizer. I roam about every night for 2-3 hours a night around lowsec, and what do i see, groups of 3-4 people looking for easy kills.
What has the ASB done to that? Oh, what, those 3-4 people are now getting curb stomped by a lone ship or not getting the kills they wanted at all?
Oh, damn...
Guess it sucks to be a victim of the environment you created.
|
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:39:00 -
[140] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:This is funny, people are acting like some great sea of 1v1s are being ruined by ASBs.
Its a myth, everybody blobs, and the ASB is the small gang blob equalizer. I roam about every night for 2-3 hours a night around lowsec, and what do i see, groups of 3-4 people looking for easy kills.
What has the ASB done to that? Oh, what, those 3-4 people are now getting curb stomped by a lone ship or not getting the kills they wanted at all?
Oh, damn...
Guess it sucks to be a victim of the environment you created.
Hey Grath, what happens if all 3-4 of those people have asbs you have to chew through. OK good talk. |
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
940
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:52:00 -
[141] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:This is funny, people are acting like some great sea of 1v1s are being ruined by ASBs.
Its a myth, everybody blobs, and the ASB is the small gang blob equalizer. I roam about every night for 2-3 hours a night around lowsec, and what do i see, groups of 3-4 people looking for easy kills.
What has the ASB done to that? Oh, what, those 3-4 people are now getting curb stomped by a lone ship or not getting the kills they wanted at all?
Oh, damn...
Guess it sucks to be a victim of the environment you created.
Hey Grath, what happens if all 3-4 of those people have asbs you have to chew through. OK good talk.
Well if my name was dez affinity i'd use my neutral repping alt, my falcon alt, and my netural scout to see all that coming and get around it.
EDIT: And lets be honest when you were movin in your neutral booster alt you'd have seen them and avoided it anyway.
Dez Affinity, 5 boxing solo pvp and crying since mid 2012 |
AndrewBot89
Aurora Belt Raiders
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 22:06:00 -
[142] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: Well if my name was dez affinity i'd use my neutral repping alt, my falcon alt, and my netural scout to see all that coming and get around it.
EDIT: And lets be honest when you were movin in your neutral booster alt you'd have seen them and avoided it anyway.
Dez Affinity, 5 boxing solo pvp and crying since mid 2012
And let's say you don't have those alts, what then? Try not to slip into ad hominem, it does nothing to advance your argument. |
Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
57
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 22:18:00 -
[143] - Quote
ASBs ruining small-scale PvP? Really not seein' it. New fits, new counters, a little more 'burden of knowledge' to recognize that there are a few ships that will probably be ASB fit and you better not engage 'em unless you can handle that, sure. The only true problem is the ***** neutral alt, killboard efficiency, falcon, titan bridge attitude that permeates much of EVE.
I mean c'mon now, things change; it wasn't that long ago that everyone was nano fit and everything else was sub-optimal. Or everyone was armor buffered and everything else was sub-optimal. Or everyone had ECM drones and everything else was sub-optimal. Or everyone was in a drake and everything else was sub-optimal. Some got nerfed, some didn't, and life went on. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
497
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 22:47:00 -
[144] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Cearain wrote:[quote=Mariner6][quote=Cearain] I think you are a bit too worked up about semantics. I disagree with your narrow catagorizations. Slaves are passive tank implants even though they add to armor which does not regenerate. But whatever. There were quite a few viable active armor tank pvp ships. Triple rep and dual rep myrm. The dual rep did not require 2 midslots. Dual rep incursus, dual rep sfi, and various dominix fits not to mention all the tech 2 amarr and gallente ships. The issue now is really whether the ancillary shield booster is so overpowered that all these fits are obsolete. I don't think the proper response is to say well then lets give armor ships an equally overpowered module so armor and shield are the same! I think that just tramples the nuanced considerations in how you fit ships and gives you the dumbed down choice of if under 10 in your gang then "ancillary shield booster or ancillary armor booster take your pick they are the same." Like I said right now as a mainly solo pilot I use the asbs allot. And there will need to be some fine tuning either with the mod directly or with how armor tanking works. But just creating and equally overpowered armor tanking mod is hamfisted and will dumb the game down. Ok, obviously we are not going to agree on it but nor do I feel like having a pissing match about it. I don't think it will dumb the game down, but you know what if that's what you want to call it, then fine. Dumb the game down and give armor ships a more viable armor rep system. It would be great to have a module for armor tanking ships that would provide boosts without also having to sacrifice mid slots to cap boosters and also suffer the danger of neuting. Its the only way to balance things if the ASB is going to remain as it is. Which I'm fine with.
I think they can balance things a bit yes. But the idea of just "balancing" this by adding a aab is a bad idea.
People where fitting all sorts of tanks on ships for pvp. You had shield buffer tanks with the drake and hurricane and several other ships inlcuding rupture etc. You had a few active shield tanks with the harpy, cyclone and the maelstrom. (although I agree this catagory was lacking and most in need of something) You had active armor with myrm, Bruytix, domi, sfi, incursus, deimos, ishkur, vengence etc. You had buffer armor tanks with many t1 cruisers jamming a 1600 plate on as did many battleships and other ships. We even had a few that had both buffer and active tank like dual rep myrm and the jaguar with a small shield repper.
So we had a large variety tanks to choose from. Now? Well, it appears they all (at least cruiser and above) are better with the asb. That is the potential problem. I think we need to give it some time but in the mean time I am using them every chance I get. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
940
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 23:00:00 -
[145] - Quote
AndrewBot89 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Well if my name was dez affinity i'd use my neutral repping alt, my falcon alt, and my netural scout to see all that coming and get around it.
EDIT: And lets be honest when you were movin in your neutral booster alt you'd have seen them and avoided it anyway.
Dez Affinity, 5 boxing solo pvp and crying since mid 2012
And let's say you don't have those alts, what then? Try not to slip into ad hominem, it does nothing to advance your argument.
The point is, why is one kind of asshattery better than another? Why is it ok to run around with 5 accounts that use falcon alts and neutral reppers and afk boosting alts but its not ok to have a powerful burst tank on something?
Its all the same crap, this myth about the great small gang pvp arenas of eve and their decline is all a load of crap by people that are either unable to gank, or being ganked, small gang pvp has always revolved around who has more ships, and more firepower, just like blob warfare, only the numbers used are different.
You're not outnumbered by 20 or 30, you're outnumbered by 2 or 3 and the outcome is usually the same.
If you want to cry about whats right and fair in EVE your trail should start well before the ASB, if anything, its tipping the balance BACK towards the TRUE lone player.
|
Lexa Hellfury
Adversity.
118
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 01:18:00 -
[146] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:The point is, why is one kind of asshattery better than another? Why is it ok to run around with 5 accounts that use falcon alts and neutral reppers and afk boosting alts but its not ok to have a powerful burst tank on something?
Its all the same crap, this myth about the great small gang pvp arenas of eve and their decline is all a load of crap by people that are either unable to gank, or being ganked, small gang pvp has always revolved around who has more ships, and more firepower, just like blob warfare, only the numbers used are different.
You're not outnumbered by 20 or 30, you're outnumbered by 2 or 3 and the outcome is usually the same.
If you want to cry about whats right and fair in EVE your trail should start well before the ASB, if anything, its tipping the balance BACK towards the TRUE lone player.
So your new counter-argument is "people in eve are blobbing faggots so why even bother balancing the ASB"?
Your argument has slowly degenerated from "no no, it's fine, really" to "lol other things are gay, too" |
Katalci
Creative Cookie Procuring Veto Corp
106
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 02:05:00 -
[147] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:I think AT would benefit a lot more from banning/nerfing ECM than ASB.
*hides from the rotten tomatoes*
Edit2: Granted ECM hasn't made as bothersomely boring matches this year than it used to in some previous tournaments. Hell no; some ECM matches had me on the edge of my seat (HUN Vargurs vs. PL Widows was incredible). Just because people fail to counter it, making for a boring match where one side just gets stomped, it doesn't mean that it should be removed.
Markus Reese wrote:It isn't so much nerf, but what is needed is instead of booster giving free boost. it should just reduce the cap needed per cycle. Hello, you have missed the entire point of the module, which is to remove the need to use up a midslot for a cap booster. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
941
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 02:49:00 -
[148] - Quote
Lexa Hellfury wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:The point is, why is one kind of asshattery better than another? Why is it ok to run around with 5 accounts that use falcon alts and neutral reppers and afk boosting alts but its not ok to have a powerful burst tank on something?
Its all the same crap, this myth about the great small gang pvp arenas of eve and their decline is all a load of crap by people that are either unable to gank, or being ganked, small gang pvp has always revolved around who has more ships, and more firepower, just like blob warfare, only the numbers used are different.
You're not outnumbered by 20 or 30, you're outnumbered by 2 or 3 and the outcome is usually the same.
If you want to cry about whats right and fair in EVE your trail should start well before the ASB, if anything, its tipping the balance BACK towards the TRUE lone player.
So your new counter-argument is "people in eve are blobbing fa ggots so why even bother balancing the ASB"? Your argument has slowly degenerated from "no no, it's fine, really" to "lol other things are gay, too"
No, my argument is that your relative perspective on whats broken depends on what you're thing you're abusing at the time.
I dont find them broken, but then, I dont use netural booster alts or reppers or falcon alts or any of the other gay **** that long ago killed small and solo pvp, but its funny to see the rest of the ninnies come cry about something cramping their style when they infact use a ton of broken crap on their own.
I mean, if it bothers you that much, just quit, remember this is a game, and if you're not having fun you shouldn't play it.
|
Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
50
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 03:38:00 -
[149] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:Ginseng Jita wrote:ASB's was one of the best things added to the game. It gives another option to teams on what ships they should field and how they should fit them. I would reword that as 'removing options' - I might be willing to bet that ASB Cyclone/Sleipnir/Vargur are the most common ships this tournament. There is no reason to use another option because the ASB tank combined with a logi to fill your reload time makes the tank so strong that there is not a lot that can deal with it without your dps ship dying before the enemy ASB ship is dead. Also, that setup we saw a few days ago with 10 T1 battlecruisers - cyclones, feroxes and....brutixes (I think? Can't remember. Doesn't matter.) The 4 cyclones and 4 feroxes with ASBs would take so long to kill with almost a minute straight of ASB boosting on each ship that even if the ASB ships were doing no dps they would still all survive because you have to spend a whole minute wearing down the ASB charges and then even more time actually killing them. The match would be over before they died.
What? Please recount how many asb equipped sleipners and cyclones we killed with just the dps of three tengus in the Suddenly Spaceships match, not to mention how many teams just brought tons of dps and shot straight through them. Which tournament were you watching? SLAPD - Star Scientist, I science stars |
Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
149
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 17:30:00 -
[150] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:This is funny, people are acting like some great sea of 1v1s are being ruined by ASBs.
Its a myth, everybody blobs, and the ASB is the small gang blob equalizer. I roam about every night for 2-3 hours a night around lowsec, and what do i see, groups of 3-4 people looking for easy kills.
What has the ASB done to that? Oh, what, those 3-4 people are now getting curb stomped by a lone ship or not getting the kills they wanted at all?
Oh, damn...
Guess it sucks to be a victim of the environment you created.
Hey Grath, what happens if all 3-4 of those people have asbs you have to chew through. OK good talk. Well if my name was dez affinity i'd use my neutral repping alt, my falcon alt, and my netural scout to see all that coming and get around it. EDIT: And lets be honest when you were movin in your neutral booster alt you'd have seen them and avoided it anyway. Dez Affinity, 5 boxing solo pvp and crying since mid 2012
Naw, Dez adapts like the rest of those who play this game. He'll have his ASB-ships too, in fact that's the whole thing about FOTM, it works fine until "everyone" starts using it, and when everyone is using it (and no one is using anything else) it becomes a zero-sum game, Falcon alts or not. The only reason why it is fun now to use ASB's is because a lot of people aren't familiar with it and dying in droves with questionmarks over their faces. A lot of duders are still adapting to **** that occured four years ago when buffer armor tanks came in fashion, or just prior to that when the spr "wololol 50mil tank 900dps indefinitely & neuts-immune"-drake was popular. These duders will still die to a bucket with a pea shooter.
There are a lot of broken things in EVE, and tossing one more on the pile is not going to fix anything. The fact that cheap **** easily wins over expensive **** is b0rkened. If it was some clever setup that required micro-management of some sort to work, then fine. But there is none required here.
Ronald Reagan: I do not like Sweden, they support communism. Minister: Sir, but Sweden are anti-communist, Sir.-á Ronald Reagan: I do not care what kind of communists they are. |
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Lazarus Telraven
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 18:22:00 -
[151] - Quote
Having done quite a bit of solo roaming lately, I think the only real issue with the ASB currently is that it has TOO many charges, if they take away 2-3 charges from it then I think it would be fairly balanced |
Klown Walk
Knysna Grim Reapers Absolute Darkness
110
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 22:46:00 -
[152] - Quote
T3 links needs nerfs if anything. |
Rroff
The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 13:07:00 -
[153] - Quote
T3 links are fine mostly, interdiction one is a little bit over the top now but its not game breaking. The only people I see crying about them are the people who don't want to have to go to the effort of bringing their own link ship. |
Jerick Ludhowe
Toxic Waste Industries
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 14:27:00 -
[154] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:This is funny, people are acting like some great sea of 1v1s are being ruined by ASBs.
Its a myth, everybody blobs, and the ASB is the small gang blob equalizer. I roam about every night for 2-3 hours a night around lowsec, and what do i see, groups of 3-4 people looking for easy kills.
What has the ASB done to that? Oh, what, those 3-4 people are now getting curb stomped by a lone ship or not getting the kills they wanted at all?
Oh, damn...
Guess it sucks to be a victim of the environment you created.
This has got to be a troll post as you've managed to destroy your own argument within a few sentences. "ASB are fine because it allows me to fight 4 people while solo and they are trying to gank solo players so it's fair." If not a troll i just don't understand how this situation could be reasonably mistaken for balanced. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
971
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:27:00 -
[155] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:[quote=Grath Telkin]
This has got to be a troll post as you've managed to destroy your own argument within a few sentences. "ASB are fine because it allows me to fight 4 people while solo and they are trying to gank solo players so it's fair." If not a troll i just don't understand how this situation could be reasonably mistaken for balanced.
Yea I mean honestly numbers should always be the only thing in EVE that matters what the hells wrong with me right?
|
Jerick Ludhowe
Toxic Waste Industries
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:43:00 -
[156] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:[quote=Grath Telkin]
This has got to be a troll post as you've managed to destroy your own argument within a few sentences. "ASB are fine because it allows me to fight 4 people while solo and they are trying to gank solo players so it's fair." If not a troll i just don't understand how this situation could be reasonably mistaken for balanced. Yea I mean honestly numbers should always be the only thing in EVE that matters what the hells wrong with me right?
Stop over simplifying things.... 4v1 could always be done prior to asb, however it took specific flying and required for specific counter fits to not be present. The thing about the 4v1 situation you talk about with asb is that it's a brawling situation... Never should 1 person of similar ship class be able to take 4 other similarly skilled players in a throw down brawl situation especially when looking at the low relative cost of these asb fits... I'm sorry but saying something stupid like "Yea I mean honestly numbers should always be the only thing in EVE that matters what the hells wrong with me right?" is a deplorable fail counter argument at best. No where did i ever mention that eve should be strictly based around numbers... Stop grasping at straws garth, you're not good at it. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
971
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:49:00 -
[157] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:[quote=Grath Telkin]
This has got to be a troll post as you've managed to destroy your own argument within a few sentences. "ASB are fine because it allows me to fight 4 people while solo and they are trying to gank solo players so it's fair." If not a troll i just don't understand how this situation could be reasonably mistaken for balanced. Yea I mean honestly numbers should always be the only thing in EVE that matters what the hells wrong with me right? Stop over simplifying things.... 4v1 could always be done prior to asb, however it took specific flying and required for specific counter fits to not be present. The thing about the 4v1 situation you talk about with asb is that it's a brawling situation... Never should 1 person of similar ship class be able to take 4 other similarly skilled players in a throw down brawl situation especially when looking at the low relative cost of these asb fits... I'm sorry but saying something stupid like "Yea I mean honestly numbers should always be the only thing in EVE that matters what the hells wrong with me right?" is a deplorable fail counter argument at best. No where did i ever mention that eve should be strictly based around numbers... Stop grasping at straws garth, you're not good at it.
You didnt have to use all those words to come up with "numbers should beat everything".
And no, I wont stop oversimplifying it, because you contradict yourself in your own statement by saying that it could be done before the ASB then later you say it shouldn't ever be possible.
Its ok that you want numbers to rule over all, but just be man enough to admit it openly and not hide it behind a wall of double talk and words |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
971
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:51:00 -
[158] - Quote
Also how can you have specific counter fits in a 4 on 1 fight? You have one ship, how frickin specific can you get?
I think you got owned by some scrublord in an ASB ship and came to angry post about it today, so while you rant rage and complain I'll just sit here counter posting while killing little youngins with their ASBs in FW. |
Jerick Ludhowe
Toxic Waste Industries
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:08:00 -
[159] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: And no, I wont stop oversimplifying it, because you contradict yourself in your own statement by saying that it could be done before the ASB then later you say it shouldn't ever be possible.
Re read again please, you will notice that i stated it could be done prior to asbs so long as specific counters were not present. Also you will notice that the 4v1s i'm talking about being broken post asb patch is in regards to "brawling" not kiting which would have been the most applicable way to win a 4v1 prior to asb. As far as 4v1 brawling of similar ship class/pilots prior to asb it was only really achievable through the use offgrids, boosters, and faction/dead space gear. Also this would require the lack again ofspecific counters being present, in the case of these pre asb super tanks these were nuets...
With the introduction of asb the primary counter to these super tanks is no longer available, further more the lack of required cap booster means you have extra slots available for either a back up asb or invulns/boost amps. Currently the only real viable counter to an asb super tank is to bring more dps/people... The whole "wait for his charges to run out" is again dependent on the dps fielded.
As for the whole me getting owned by some asb scrublord... Naaa man, i'm not about it for personal interest, i'm about it for the health of eve. Current asb mechanics are not healthy for eve by any stretch of argument and will most certainly be nerfed within a years time.
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
971
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:36:00 -
[160] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: And no, I wont stop oversimplifying it, because you contradict yourself in your own statement by saying that it could be done before the ASB then later you say it shouldn't ever be possible.
Re read again please, you will notice that i stated it could be done prior to asbs so long as specific counters were not present. Also you will notice that the 4v1s i'm talking about being broken post asb patch is in regards to "brawling" not kiting which would have been the most applicable way to win a 4v1 prior to asb. As far as 4v1 brawling of similar ship class/pilots prior to asb it was only really achievable through the use offgrids, boosters, and faction/dead space gear. Also this would require the lack again ofspecific counters being present, in the case of these pre asb super tanks these were nuets... With the introduction of asb the primary counter to these super tanks is no longer available, further more the lack of required cap booster means you have extra slots available for either a back up asb or invulns/boost amps. Currently the only real viable counter to an asb super tank is to bring more dps/people... The whole "wait for his charges to run out" is again dependent on the dps fielded. As for the whole me getting owned by some asb scrublord... Naaa man, i'm not about it for personal interest, i'm about it for the health of eve. Current asb mechanics are not healthy for eve by any stretch of argument and will most certainly be nerfed within a years time.
Interesting, I see ASB fitted ships die every night, I wonder what in the world you're talking about.
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