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A time for all POS owners to vote with their feet

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Cool dude	Posted - 2004.12.23 02:27:00 - [1] Edited by: Cool dude on 23/12/2004 02:43:49 We have been running a POS for a few weeks now. We have mined a lot of moon minerals amd have done simple reactions to produce several materials. The upshot of the this is that I can say with some authority that at the moment there is no way that anyone can sustain a pos without losing 35mil per week. CCP's response to this is "Well we now have 150 pos's in place so they must be working" Well I beleive that the time has come for some action from the playerbase. As ceo of a meduim sized corp I cannot sustain this money sink on my corp. Therefore i think it is time for action! I propose that everyone that has a POS online at the moment take it down. That way we will show CCP that they need to do something about them NOW. POS's were supposed to be the flagship of the shiva/exodus patch but at the moment are of no use at all. CCP seem to think that we should all get in volved in some kind of social experiment where we all need to co-operate, which is fine but lets have some cahnce of making it work. I have allways supported CCP in the past but cannot watch my corps funds drain away while we are being used as what i feel is a kinda CCP ant nest experiment
Cool dude	Posted - 2004.12.23 02:27:00 - [2] Edited by: Cool dude on 23/12/2004 02:43:49 We have been running a POS for a few weeks now. We have mined a lot of moon minerals amd have done simple reactions to produce several materials. The upshot of the this is that I can say with some authority that at the moment there is no way that anyone can sustain a pos without losing 35mil per week. CCP's response to this is "Well we now have 150 pos's in place so they must be working" Well I beleive that the time has come for some action from the playerbase. As ceo of a meduim sized corp I cannot sustain this money sink on my corp. Therefore i think it is time for action! I propose that everyone that has a POS online at the moment take it down. That way we will show CCP that they need to do something about them NOW. POS's were supposed to be the flagship of the shiva/exodus patch but at the moment are of no use at all. CCP seem to think that we should all get in volved in some kind of social experiment where we all need to co-operate, which is fine but lets have some cahnce of making it work. I have allways supported CCP in the past but cannot watch my corps funds drain away while we are being used as what i feel is a kinda CCP ant nest experiment
hobie	Posted - 2004.12.23 02:32:00 - [3] I have had a station for about two weeks as well. There is no point in continuing to be CCP's guinea pig in this. They must have messed up with the math while planning. After comparing notes with other station owners, I am taking my station offline as of right now. hobie OSV Corp
hobie	Posted - 2004.12.23 02:32:00 - [4] I have had a station for about two weeks as well. There is no point in continuing to be CCP's guinea pig in this. They must have messed up with the math while planning. After comparing notes with other station owners, I am taking my station offline as of right now. hobie OSV Corp
Naverin	Posted - 2004.12.23 02:48:00 - [5] shut mine down 3 days after it went up.. made no sence :/ and i couldnt keep dealing with the isk needed for fuel
Naverin	Posted - 2004.12.23 02:48:00 - [6] shut mine down 3 days after it went up.. made no sence :/ and i couldnt keep dealing with the isk needed for fuel
Johnson McCrae	Posted - 2004.12.23 03:02:00 - [7] I do recall CCP saying they'd be for large corps, and would be money sinks. Nobody listened, so here you are. Broke. The POS's are not the be all end all items of Exodus. But many thought they were going to make big ISK from them. Won't happen for some time. It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya! [ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
Johnson McCrae	Posted - 2004.12.23 03:02:00 - [8] I do recall CCP saying they'd be for large corps, and would be money sinks. Nobody listened, so here you are. Broke. The POS's are not the be all end all items of Exodus. But many thought they were going to make big ISK from them. Won't happen for some time. It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya! [ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
w0rmy	Posted - 2004.12.23 03:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Johnson McCrae I do recall CCP saying they'd be for large corps, and would be money sinks. Ahhh that makes perfect sense... Make it so the only people who can afford them are those who exploit (Before you all nut off at me, I dont mean all corps or people, im just generalising). Money sinks dont work, this has been proven time and time again by every game thats tried to impliment one.
w0rmy	Posted - 2004.12.23 03:09:00 - [10] Originally by: Johnson McCrae I do recall CCP saying they'd be for large corps, and would be money sinks. Ahhh that makes perfect sense... Make it so the only people who can afford them are those who exploit (Before you all nut off at me, I dont mean all corps or people, im just generalising). Money sinks dont work, this has been proven time and time again by every game thats tried to impliment one.
Grantavious	Posted - 2004.12.23 03:30:00 - [11] I have invested well over 400million isk in this POS, took 1 week to make 10million back, at this rate it should take me 40 weeks to break even and thats if I dont spend anything for weekly fuel costs. I now know why no one will attack it, cuz in a week it will be packed up and on the market. CCP should try player owned parking lots, a bit cheaper to maintain, less headaches and will still serve the same function.
Grantavious	Posted - 2004.12.23 03:30:00 - [12] I have invested well over 400million isk in this POS, took 1 week to make 10million back, at this rate it should take me 40 weeks to break even and thats if I dont spend anything for weekly fuel costs. I now know why no one will attack it, cuz in a week it will be packed up and on the market. CCP should try player owned parking lots, a bit cheaper to maintain, less headaches and will still serve the same function.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:36:00 - [13] Edited by: voidvim on 23/12/2004 06:37:26 In the intro movie for Exodus it showed the POS as the new cool toy in EvE. Something a group could work together on. So we saved up and got one NOW after our small corp has spent hundreds of man hours of our game time mining and hauling. Not to even consider the countless hours making and revising spread sheets just to see if it was even viable. We have come to the conclusion that POS are not worth it unless changes are made. We feel a great sense of loss as it is very hard for our corp to give up all the hard work (time wise) we have done. There is a huge amount of math involved in working out if a POS will work or not. if you want contact me in game or ask me to postthe info on this thread. We decided to run a pos because. we wanted to help lower the cost of tech II parts and thus tech II modules and ships be part of a large production chain work with other production and trading corps we did not expect to make billions, just enough for it to be worth our time. :( On the exodus part of the EvE web site it talks about cpu and grid up grade for the pos so we took this on good faith. http://www.eve-online.com/features/exodus/deployables/controlarrays.asp so you can understand why we feel lied too by CPP when we find out that they don't want to introduce them. We found it makes the most isk to sell just the raw material as we have too little cpu for the 2 reactions we need. This has allowed us to break even but that is hardly the point of running a business. Every body we sell to only needs a small amount, also we can not seem to find buyer for our basic gas's and as the price of the metals we sell fails our pos will return to the point before 50 isotope's where added to ice, making a loss.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:36:00 - [14] Edited by: voidvim on 23/12/2004 06:37:26 In the intro movie for Exodus it showed the POS as the new cool toy in EvE. Something a group could work together on. So we saved up and got one NOW after our small corp has spent hundreds of man hours of our game time mining and hauling. Not to even consider the countless hours making and revising spread sheets just to see if it was even viable. We have come to the conclusion that POS are not worth it unless changes are made. We feel a great sense of loss as it is very hard for our corp to give up all the hard work (time wise) we have done. There is a huge amount of math involved in working out if a POS will work or not. if you want contact me in game or ask me to postthe info on this thread. We decided to run a pos because. we wanted to help lower the cost of tech II parts and thus tech II modules and ships be part of a large production chain work with other production and trading corps we did not expect to make billions, just enough for it to be worth our time. :( On the exodus part of the EvE web site it talks about cpu and grid up grade for the pos so we took this on good faith. http://www.eve-online.com/features/exodus/deployables/controlarrays.asp so you can understand why we feel lied too by CPP when we find out that they don't want to introduce them. We found it makes the most isk to sell just the raw material as we have too little cpu for the 2 reactions we need. This has allowed us to break even but that is hardly the point of running a business. Every body we sell to only needs a small amount, also we can not seem to find buyer for our basic gas's and as the price of the metals we sell fails our pos will return to the point before 50 isotope's where added to ice, making a loss.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:38:00 - [15] CCP fails to understand that people will compare mining ice with the most profitable thing they can do not the price of mining trit. logic and market anlysis suggests that ice will come down in price and thus through the production chain tech II parts but this does not effect us. What CPP fails to see is small corps mine their own ice so than makes no difference to us the time and effort is the same. It is not the rare material that's the problem. It is the common ones they need to be like trit in that they sell for small amount but have a high volume of sale. The problem is no one has the cpu free to do reactions with the common gas's CCP is worried that a small to medium corp will be able to do the whole show on their own if people can do more than one reaction with their pos. But large corps have isk to set up and the man power and time to easy run many pos than any why so that does not stand up as a reason. if a small corp try to run 3 pos they would triple their cost (but not triple their profit) and triple the time needed to operate them. A small corp needs to be able to do more than just make 1 basic reaction with it's pos. CCP requires 3 pos to make 1 advanced reaction or one of the pos not mining or making a basic reactions. This just not enough isk to go around for 3 small corps.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:38:00 - [16] CCP fails to understand that people will compare mining ice with the most profitable thing they can do not the price of mining trit. logic and market anlysis suggests that ice will come down in price and thus through the production chain tech II parts but this does not effect us. What CPP fails to see is small corps mine their own ice so than makes no difference to us the time and effort is the same. It is not the rare material that's the problem. It is the common ones they need to be like trit in that they sell for small amount but have a high volume of sale. The problem is no one has the cpu free to do reactions with the common gas's CCP is worried that a small to medium corp will be able to do the whole show on their own if people can do more than one reaction with their pos. But large corps have isk to set up and the man power and time to easy run many pos than any why so that does not stand up as a reason. if a small corp try to run 3 pos they would triple their cost (but not triple their profit) and triple the time needed to operate them. A small corp needs to be able to do more than just make 1 basic reaction with it's pos. CCP requires 3 pos to make 1 advanced reaction or one of the pos not mining or making a basic reactions. This just not enough isk to go around for 3 small corps.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:39:00 - [17] Ways that would solve the POS problem release the cpu and grid upgrades that you say you would. (and return the good will of your customers) lower the cpu of structers and rise grid (so the cost of running the pos stays the same) lower the reaction times (so we done have to waste a weeks mining time) increase the grid on the towers Just because more people are putting up pos does not mean that they are viable. Few people will take the time needed to work out accurate math models. But will quit after a whilewhen they find out their wallet is going down, not up. a house of cards can be built very high. it falls down all the same.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:39:00 - [18] Ways that would solve the POS problem release the cpu and grid upgrades that you say you would. (and return the good will of your customers) lower the cpu of structers and rise grid (so the cost of running the pos stays the same) lower the reaction times (so we done have to waste a weeks mining time) increase the grid on the towers Just because more people are putting up pos does not mean that they are viable. Few people will take the time needed to work out accurate math models. But will quit after a whilewhen they find out their wallet is going down, not up. a house of cards can be built very high. it falls down all the same.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:39:00 - [19] two small carps trying to make Carbonite Armor Plates together. lets just say the small corp has the raw material on their moon to make the advanced material Crystalline Carboniteand a second has the raw materials to make Sylramic Fibers. operating cost are 55 million per week, 7 million trade goods and 48 million in mining time that the corp could be make isk other ways. and we will not count time waste configuring the pos. if a small corps takes 1 week to do one basic reaction then second week to do the other and third and forth week to do the advanced reaction it would cost at current ice price 220 million then add 220 million of the worth corp for the other advanced reaction 440 million over 4 weeks. Pos supposed to reduce the cost of tech II parts so I used the lowest price on the market. it take a week for the factory's to make the tech II parts buts that does not effect the pos at all so we shall leave it out of the calculations. at the end of the this would give you 504000 Crystalline Carbonite and 436800 Sylramic Fibers together they will make about 11454.55 Carbonite Armor Plate sell at 5900 isk . thats 67,581,845 divide by 2 (half for each corp) 33,790,922 - 220,000,000 (operating cost) = -166,209,077.5 so the bottom line is -41,552,269.25 loss a week I will add that both corps could mine with 1 or 2 harvesters and sell the raw but that nothing compared to the loss. Also if they just sell the raw or basic materials it means some has to pay for them so they just pas one the cost. We would Really Like a DEV replay to this post and for them to explained how my calculations are a total wrong or what I have not included in my calculations.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:39:00 - [20] two small carps trying to make Carbonite Armor Plates together. lets just say the small corp has the raw material on their moon to make the advanced material Crystalline Carboniteand a second has the raw materials to make Sylramic Fibers. operating cost are 55 million per week, 7 million trade goods and 48 million in mining time that the corp could be make isk other ways. and we will not count time waste configuring the pos. if a small corps takes 1 week to do one basic reaction then second week to do the other and third and forth week to do the advanced reaction it would cost at current ice price 220 million then add 220 million of the worth corp for the other advanced reaction 440 million over 4 weeks. Pos supposed to reduce the cost of tech II parts so I used the lowest price on the market. it take a week for the factory's to make the tech II parts buts that does not effect the pos at all so we shall leave it out of the calculations. at the end of the this would give you 504000 Crystalline Carbonite and 436800 Sylramic Fibers together they will make about 11454.55 Carbonite Armor Plate sell at 5900 isk . thats 67,581,845 divide by 2 (half for each corp) 33,790,922 - 220,000,000 (operating cost) = -166,209,077.5 so the bottom line is -41,552,269.25 loss a week I will add that both corps could mine with 1 or 2 harvesters and sell the raw but that nothing compared to the loss. Also if they just sell the raw or basic materials it means some has to pay for them so they just pas one the cost. We would Really Like a DEV replay to this post and for them to explained how my calculations are a total wrong or what I have not included in my calculations.
NTRabbit	Posted - 2004.12.23 07:17:00 - [21] How hard is it for a large corp to send 2 or 3 people out trading to make up this "35mill a week" shortfall? Im in a one man corp and i make that easily, im quite certain a corp large enough to buy, operate, and sustain with ice mining a POS setup should not have any problems doing other activities to make money at the same time. Clearly a corp with a very small member count, for example Placid Free Traders LLC and their 18 member count, should and do have difficulty doing this. No corp, large or small, should be expecting to make a 200% profit by anchoring a station for a week - anyone believing that has been spoiled by fables of miner II BPo's and multiple t2 BPo lottery drops to one corp/character. -------- #eve-online irc.stratics.com - Former official IRC channel (Legacy) #eve-online irc.coldfront.net - Official Unofficial IRC channel WE R 4TW!
NTRabbit	Posted - 2004.12.23 07:17:00 - [22] How hard is it for a large corp to send 2 or 3 people out trading to make up this "35mill a week" shortfall? Im in a one man corp and i make that easily, im quite certain a corp large enough to buy, operate, and sustain with ice mining a POS setup should not have any problems doing other activities to make money at the same time. Clearly a corp with a very small member count, for example Placid Free Traders LLC and their 18 member count, should and do have difficulty doing this. No corp, large or small, should be expecting to make a 200% profit by anchoring a station for a week - anyone believing that has been spoiled by fables of miner II BPo's and multiple t2 BPo lottery drops to one corp/character. -------- #eve-online irc.stratics.com - Former official IRC channel (Legacy) #eve-online irc.coldfront.net - Official Unofficial IRC channel WE R 4TW!
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.12.23 07:20:00 - [23] um. STK's POS is making craploads of cash atm. All you need is 0.0, an intensive refining array and people who mine a lot to take advantage of it. The miners have to ice mine 20hours a week for the fuel there and spend 6.2mil a week on trade goods. After that they can mine bistot to their hearts content in some arse-end of the galaxy system. They make money, STK makes money.
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.12.23 07:20:00 - [24] um. STK's POS is making craploads of cash atm. All you need is 0.0, an intensive refining array and people who mine a lot to take advantage of it. The miners have to ice mine 20hours a week for the fuel there and spend 6.2mil a week on trade goods. After that they can mine bistot to their hearts content in some arse-end of the galaxy system. They make money, STK makes money.
mrbabooon	Posted - 2004.12.23 07:47:00 - [25] mine your ice..then it costs next to nothing..and we dont have more posts about this on forums. ours POS is fine.
mrbabooon	Posted - 2004.12.23 07:47:00 - [26] mine your ice..then it costs next to nothing..and we dont have more posts about this on forums. ours POS is fine.
Dathias	Posted - 2004.12.23 08:17:00 - [27] If you are lucky and find good moon then you can make (dont know if possible) small profit. Bud you must mining high end raw minerals. You can make little profit with them. But for regular production you need common raw minerals and common simple reactions too (sulfurid acid etc..). problem is: nobody want make them because its huge money sink. If everybody must mine high end raw mins for little bit profit then is T2 component production sentence to fail for lack lowend raw mins and reactions. And if price will be higer for big demand.. nobody want produce T2 comp for their mad overall costs.
Dathias	Posted - 2004.12.23 08:17:00 - [28] If you are lucky and find good moon then you can make (dont know if possible) small profit. Bud you must mining high end raw minerals. You can make little profit with them. But for regular production you need common raw minerals and common simple reactions too (sulfurid acid etc..). problem is: nobody want make them because its huge money sink. If everybody must mine high end raw mins for little bit profit then is T2 component production sentence to fail for lack lowend raw mins and reactions. And if price will be higer for big demand.. nobody want produce T2 comp for their mad overall costs.
Hakera	Posted - 2004.12.23 08:24:00 - [29] Originally by: mrbabooon mine your ice..then it costs next to nothing..and we dont have more posts about this on forums. ours POS is fine. this is incorrect, its still a cost in materials and man hours. If you could sell your ice for 10 mill, then its a 10mill cost, if those characters mining the ice could have mined more value in veldspaer with their barges, then you should do that instead and buy the isotopes. You cannot ignore ice as a cost though, its just not good business. Needless to say, my POS is in my hanger after the fun feeling of playing with something new left when I realised it would only be a isk sink. But as Redundancy says unless you find another use for them like 0.0 mining stations, they are not meant to be profitable . Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Hakera	Posted - 2004.12.23 08:24:00 - [30] Originally by: mrbabooon mine your ice..then it costs next to nothing..and we dont have more posts about this on forums. ours POS is fine. this is incorrect, its still a cost in materials and man hours. If you could sell your ice for 10 mill, then its a 10mill cost, if those characters mining the ice could have mined more value in veldspaer with their barges, then you should do that instead and buy the isotopes. You cannot ignore ice as a cost though, its just not good business. Needless to say, my POS is in my hanger after the fun feeling of playing with something new left when I realised it would only be a isk sink. But as Redundancy says unless you find another use for them like 0.0 mining stations, they are not meant to be profitable . Dumbledore - Eve-I.com

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