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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.12.23 12:50:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Tas Devil
Did it occur to you that there is a much simpler way to make tech 2 components given the fact agents drop such components so easily ? Rather then bother with all the tech 2 components food chain that you claim is in its infancy and doing baby steps...
large agent drops of tech 2 components means empire dwellers are now refining these for the advanced materials they contain...with a 100% efficiency too...all you need to do then is stick the advanced materials right back in with the proper BPO for tech 2 goods...and you have yourself whatever tech 2 components you need...using agent drops as the fuel to your little business...
Now if you tell me this is not going to undermine POS... and the whole economic viability of the tech 2 component food chain .... to me agent drops is not a necessary evil to lower cost of tech 2 components... its intervention at its worst form ...without having given any thought to the consequences...
Oh such a simpleton :p Its not that easy, if it had, everyone would be doing it. There is key components (advanced materials) that is used common in spesific componets. Like Ferrogel and Fermionic Condensates. It makes little sense in recycle one type of reactors to make another type of reactor when you also need to recycle a 2nd type of component to make up the required materials needed to make 1 unit. I see people are doing this but what it does is bump the prices on certain components across of the factions, pumping prices up overall on all t2 components.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.12.23 12:50:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Tas Devil
Did it occur to you that there is a much simpler way to make tech 2 components given the fact agents drop such components so easily ? Rather then bother with all the tech 2 components food chain that you claim is in its infancy and doing baby steps...
large agent drops of tech 2 components means empire dwellers are now refining these for the advanced materials they contain...with a 100% efficiency too...all you need to do then is stick the advanced materials right back in with the proper BPO for tech 2 goods...and you have yourself whatever tech 2 components you need...using agent drops as the fuel to your little business...
Now if you tell me this is not going to undermine POS... and the whole economic viability of the tech 2 component food chain .... to me agent drops is not a necessary evil to lower cost of tech 2 components... its intervention at its worst form ...without having given any thought to the consequences...
Oh such a simpleton :p Its not that easy, if it had, everyone would be doing it. There is key components (advanced materials) that is used common in spesific componets. Like Ferrogel and Fermionic Condensates. It makes little sense in recycle one type of reactors to make another type of reactor when you also need to recycle a 2nd type of component to make up the required materials needed to make 1 unit. I see people are doing this but what it does is bump the prices on certain components across of the factions, pumping prices up overall on all t2 components.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Tas Devil
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Posted - 2004.12.23 12:52:00 -
[93]
Do you guys read what I am saying ? I'm not saying it makes sense...I am saying it happens... and that undermines POS...and their economic viability... trust me (or don't for all I care) tech 2 components is not where the money is in eve... but I am seeing it happen in empire space and it will have an effect on POS economic viability ...
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Tas Devil
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Posted - 2004.12.23 12:52:00 -
[94]
Do you guys read what I am saying ? I'm not saying it makes sense...I am saying it happens... and that undermines POS...and their economic viability... trust me (or don't for all I care) tech 2 components is not where the money is in eve... but I am seeing it happen in empire space and it will have an effect on POS economic viability ...
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.12.23 12:55:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Tas Devil
Do you guys read what I am saying ? I'm not saying it makes sense...I am saying it happens... and that undermines POS...and their economic viability... trust me (or don't for all I care) tech 2 components is not where the money is in eve... but I am seeing it happen in empire space and it will have an effect on POS economic viability ...
YES, it does undermine the POS and its viability at the momment, but over time it wont the amount of surplus comps to recycle will run out and the factories will grind to a halt with prices on certain comps much higher than current prices. At least that is what I see might happen.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.12.23 12:55:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Tas Devil
Do you guys read what I am saying ? I'm not saying it makes sense...I am saying it happens... and that undermines POS...and their economic viability... trust me (or don't for all I care) tech 2 components is not where the money is in eve... but I am seeing it happen in empire space and it will have an effect on POS economic viability ...
YES, it does undermine the POS and its viability at the momment, but over time it wont the amount of surplus comps to recycle will run out and the factories will grind to a halt with prices on certain comps much higher than current prices. At least that is what I see might happen.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.12.23 13:03:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Lady Rona
Pos defenses are fine a small corp like ours needs those defences.
your corp size or it importanse dont justify a pos defenses that can take out fleet of 500 BS's
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.12.23 13:03:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Lady Rona
Pos defenses are fine a small corp like ours needs those defences.
your corp size or it importanse dont justify a pos defenses that can take out fleet of 500 BS's
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Andaras
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Posted - 2004.12.23 13:08:00 -
[99]
Factories will never grind to a halt all the time agents drop T2 comps. Were just back to what we had before POS. POS will become an irrellevance for T2 comp manufacture and will be used as bases and refineries instead. Kind of makes the whole deal with T2 minerals harvesting and POS laughable really.
At the rate of consumption of the POS's, it will never be profitable to use them solely for T2 comp manufacture so prices will remain as they are or drop with increased agent drops. In any case POS for T2 use is dead before it even started. The maths is perfectly clear.
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Andaras
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Posted - 2004.12.23 13:08:00 -
[100]
Factories will never grind to a halt all the time agents drop T2 comps. Were just back to what we had before POS. POS will become an irrellevance for T2 comp manufacture and will be used as bases and refineries instead. Kind of makes the whole deal with T2 minerals harvesting and POS laughable really.
At the rate of consumption of the POS's, it will never be profitable to use them solely for T2 comp manufacture so prices will remain as they are or drop with increased agent drops. In any case POS for T2 use is dead before it even started. The maths is perfectly clear.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.12.23 13:23:00 -
[101]
POS in 0.1-0.3 are mainly there for sole T2 manufacture or as a plaything being as peopl in such space normally are surrounded by stations anyway. For a T2 production pyramid to work, it must work at its most basic level. Which means mining the four basic deposits should meet at least running costs.
This is the most basic level of POS use, if a farmer POS producing 7200 units of various primary raw materials cannot meet running costs as the base of the pyramid then the rest of the pyramid will not unless the whole pyramid is ran by one entity where the other levels of production can be operated at cost with minimal margins.
Yes POS should drain resources, I dont question that, the logistics involved with the volume decreases are a lot better. But the time in man hours to keep a POS operational from hauling to ice mining and the costs involved do not warrant what you get back.
POS are meant to be the new funky thing that defines Exodus, if the only use for them is to act as refining arrays and ship storage for the powerblock alliances with some moon mining on the side to offset running costs against the massive profit of being located in a suitable 0.0 system, all well & good, but the majority of players who have sunk their isk into POS and quickly found it they are not worth it, great to try and to experiment with, but ultimatly, not worth the effort, isk or time.
POS aimed at being purely T2 componant manufacture, must be designed to be profitable by CCP, or they will forever remain toys of the rich alliances and wealthy corps only where meeting the daily running costs is peanuts.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.12.23 13:23:00 -
[102]
POS in 0.1-0.3 are mainly there for sole T2 manufacture or as a plaything being as peopl in such space normally are surrounded by stations anyway. For a T2 production pyramid to work, it must work at its most basic level. Which means mining the four basic deposits should meet at least running costs.
This is the most basic level of POS use, if a farmer POS producing 7200 units of various primary raw materials cannot meet running costs as the base of the pyramid then the rest of the pyramid will not unless the whole pyramid is ran by one entity where the other levels of production can be operated at cost with minimal margins.
Yes POS should drain resources, I dont question that, the logistics involved with the volume decreases are a lot better. But the time in man hours to keep a POS operational from hauling to ice mining and the costs involved do not warrant what you get back.
POS are meant to be the new funky thing that defines Exodus, if the only use for them is to act as refining arrays and ship storage for the powerblock alliances with some moon mining on the side to offset running costs against the massive profit of being located in a suitable 0.0 system, all well & good, but the majority of players who have sunk their isk into POS and quickly found it they are not worth it, great to try and to experiment with, but ultimatly, not worth the effort, isk or time.
POS aimed at being purely T2 componant manufacture, must be designed to be profitable by CCP, or they will forever remain toys of the rich alliances and wealthy corps only where meeting the daily running costs is peanuts.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Archbishop
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Posted - 2004.12.23 14:02:00 -
[103]
Lets look at the original purposes of the POS.
1. Provide a close in refining location for rare ores.
2. Provide moon mining for T2 construction material development.
3. Provide military bases and alliances headquarters.
Now lets look at each purpose and how its working.
1. We now have intensive refineries. Problem is they're way too slow. CCP needs to "speed up" the time per refine batch. I saw one thread where a person mentioned they'd need 4-5 of these intensive refineries just to keep up with a small time mining fleet.
2. While they can produce T2 raw materials the problem is the market. Right now there is way too much T2 npc components around. I would imagine CCP will eventually "cut off" all non-player T2 component manufacturing. That means no more components and materials from agents. That means that market will be entirely player driven. Remember after beta the npc's sold everything (ships included). Now remember how they just "stopped" one day and it all became player made? Well thats what I believe CCP intends to do with T2 components and materials.
3. Right now there is no way to give non-corp members access to a stations utlities without giving them the "God" mode. This is highly irresponsible as a station could be stolen outright by a corp thief. This thread HERE talks about the maintenance hangar issue. This is fundamental to an alliance POS. Likewise I'm not sure I'd even want to give everyone in a corp the "God" mode. We've all seen corp theft problems. Would you want your 300m isk station "stolen"?
Summary:
As far as profitabilty with T2 (#2 above) the real issue is organization. I'm aware of a corp with over ten POS. This corp (which does not advertise this fact) is already planning to organize T2 construction once the market shifts and npc component production stops. Because they're organized (as part of an even bigger group) they'll have POS at strategic moons each mining specific materials and they'll be able to produce T2. The market once it dries up from NPC produced will stabilize and T2 components will then price "fairly". Right now most T2 components on the market are way underpriced imo.
So basically we need to have a few things done here for POS to operate profitably.
1. CCP needs to end npc T2 component production.
2. CCP needs to fix the maintenance hangar issue so alliances and corps can use a POS while the owners know its secure (thus not giving God mode to all).
3. CCP needs to speed up the refine rate of the intensive refineries.
4. Player POS owners need to communicate with other POS owners and organize their stations and cooperate in mining specific things for T2 component production.
Three of these fixes are CCP's, one is the players, we can only directly control one of them. Time to get organized on the one we can control.
Archbishop 
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 14:02:00 -
[104]
Lets look at the original purposes of the POS.
1. Provide a close in refining location for rare ores.
2. Provide moon mining for T2 construction material development.
3. Provide military bases and alliances headquarters.
Now lets look at each purpose and how its working.
1. We now have intensive refineries. Problem is they're way too slow. CCP needs to "speed up" the time per refine batch. I saw one thread where a person mentioned they'd need 4-5 of these intensive refineries just to keep up with a small time mining fleet.
2. While they can produce T2 raw materials the problem is the market. Right now there is way too much T2 npc components around. I would imagine CCP will eventually "cut off" all non-player T2 component manufacturing. That means no more components and materials from agents. That means that market will be entirely player driven. Remember after beta the npc's sold everything (ships included). Now remember how they just "stopped" one day and it all became player made? Well thats what I believe CCP intends to do with T2 components and materials.
3. Right now there is no way to give non-corp members access to a stations utlities without giving them the "God" mode. This is highly irresponsible as a station could be stolen outright by a corp thief. This thread HERE talks about the maintenance hangar issue. This is fundamental to an alliance POS. Likewise I'm not sure I'd even want to give everyone in a corp the "God" mode. We've all seen corp theft problems. Would you want your 300m isk station "stolen"?
Summary:
As far as profitabilty with T2 (#2 above) the real issue is organization. I'm aware of a corp with over ten POS. This corp (which does not advertise this fact) is already planning to organize T2 construction once the market shifts and npc component production stops. Because they're organized (as part of an even bigger group) they'll have POS at strategic moons each mining specific materials and they'll be able to produce T2. The market once it dries up from NPC produced will stabilize and T2 components will then price "fairly". Right now most T2 components on the market are way underpriced imo.
So basically we need to have a few things done here for POS to operate profitably.
1. CCP needs to end npc T2 component production.
2. CCP needs to fix the maintenance hangar issue so alliances and corps can use a POS while the owners know its secure (thus not giving God mode to all).
3. CCP needs to speed up the refine rate of the intensive refineries.
4. Player POS owners need to communicate with other POS owners and organize their stations and cooperate in mining specific things for T2 component production.
Three of these fixes are CCP's, one is the players, we can only directly control one of them. Time to get organized on the one we can control.
Archbishop
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Arud
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Posted - 2004.12.23 14:28:00 -
[105]
increase the starting cost while cutting the running cost down by alot, should even things out
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Arud
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Posted - 2004.12.23 14:28:00 -
[106]
increase the starting cost while cutting the running cost down by alot, should even things out
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Arud
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Posted - 2004.12.23 14:29:00 -
[107]
increase the starting cost while cutting the running cost down by alot, should even things out
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Arud
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Posted - 2004.12.23 14:29:00 -
[108]
increase the starting cost while cutting the running cost down by alot, should even things out
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.12.23 14:37:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Archbishop
Right now most T2 components on the market are way underpriced imo.
Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh!
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.12.23 14:37:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Archbishop
Right now most T2 components on the market are way underpriced imo.
Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh!
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.12.23 14:40:00 -
[111]
i always saw POS as a base of operations like someone said before.
to put one in empire space is somewhat bizarre i see them 30-40+ jumps away and run by hermits.
"Teh lord of Nonni"
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SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.12.23 14:40:00 -
[112]
i always saw POS as a base of operations like someone said before.
to put one in empire space is somewhat bizarre i see them 30-40+ jumps away and run by hermits.
"Teh lord of Nonni"
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:18:00 -
[113]
Quote:
"Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh!"
Production cost and sales price are not related. Supply and Demand and what the market will pay for something are the realities.
Take T2 component construction. If it goes purely player made and prices skyrocket that has no bearing on insurance payments. What an item is "worth" in raw form parts has little to do with its "worth" in the market.
Players can charge whatever they want for something.... it has nothing to do with insurance.
Archbishop
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 15:18:00 -
[114]
Quote:
"Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh!"
Production cost and sales price are not related. Supply and Demand and what the market will pay for something are the realities.
Take T2 component construction. If it goes purely player made and prices skyrocket that has no bearing on insurance payments. What an item is "worth" in raw form parts has little to do with its "worth" in the market.
Players can charge whatever they want for something.... it has nothing to do with insurance.
Archbishop
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Doppleganger
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:52:00 -
[115]
Originally by: SwitchBl4d3
i always saw POS as a base of operations like someone said before.
to put one in empire space is somewhat bizarre i see them 30-40+ jumps away and run by hermits.
Yeah for some of us having the ability to claim a section of space is worth the cost of owning a pos. Looking at pos from only a t2c stand point is very limited.
Granted I can look at it from a t2c stand point too and if I did, I would not own one. 
Pos are still new (only 1 month old) I'm giving CCP more time to think about them and tweak them via facts and info from players put in well constructed critques. After all look how long they have been working on ship/weapon balances.... did you think pos would be perfect right away?
/me crawls back into his hermit hole
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Doppleganger
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:52:00 -
[116]
Originally by: SwitchBl4d3
i always saw POS as a base of operations like someone said before.
to put one in empire space is somewhat bizarre i see them 30-40+ jumps away and run by hermits.
Yeah for some of us having the ability to claim a section of space is worth the cost of owning a pos. Looking at pos from only a t2c stand point is very limited.
Granted I can look at it from a t2c stand point too and if I did, I would not own one.
Pos are still new (only 1 month old) I'm giving CCP more time to think about them and tweak them via facts and info from players put in well constructed critques. After all look how long they have been working on ship/weapon balances.... did you think pos would be perfect right away?
/me crawls back into his hermit hole
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:56:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Archbishop
Quote:
"Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh!"
Production cost and sales price are not related. Supply and Demand and what the market will pay for something are the realities.
Take T2 component construction. If it goes purely player made and prices skyrocket that has no bearing on insurance payments. What an item is "worth" in raw form parts has little to do with its "worth" in the market.
Players can charge whatever they want for something.... it has nothing to do with insurance.
Archbishop
Intention with POS's was to make tech2 comps cheaper, not introduce ISK printing machines.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.12.23 15:56:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Archbishop
Quote:
"Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh!"
Production cost and sales price are not related. Supply and Demand and what the market will pay for something are the realities.
Take T2 component construction. If it goes purely player made and prices skyrocket that has no bearing on insurance payments. What an item is "worth" in raw form parts has little to do with its "worth" in the market.
Players can charge whatever they want for something.... it has nothing to do with insurance.
Archbishop
Intention with POS's was to make tech2 comps cheaper, not introduce ISK printing machines.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
|
Cool dude
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Posted - 2004.12.23 16:05:00 -
[119]
Quote:
Intention with POS's was to make tech2 comps cheaper, not introduce ISK printing machines.
I am not expecting to make billions from production, but it is silly to run them when they are costing money |
Cool dude
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 16:05:00 -
[120]
Quote:
Intention with POS's was to make tech2 comps cheaper, not introduce ISK printing machines.
I am not expecting to make billions from production, but it is silly to run them when they are costing money |
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