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A time for all POS owners to vote with their feet

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Cool dude	Posted - 2004.12.23 02:27:00 - [1] Edited by: Cool dude on 23/12/2004 02:43:49 We have been running a POS for a few weeks now. We have mined a lot of moon minerals amd have done simple reactions to produce several materials. The upshot of the this is that I can say with some authority that at the moment there is no way that anyone can sustain a pos without losing 35mil per week. CCP's response to this is "Well we now have 150 pos's in place so they must be working" Well I beleive that the time has come for some action from the playerbase. As ceo of a meduim sized corp I cannot sustain this money sink on my corp. Therefore i think it is time for action! I propose that everyone that has a POS online at the moment take it down. That way we will show CCP that they need to do something about them NOW. POS's were supposed to be the flagship of the shiva/exodus patch but at the moment are of no use at all. CCP seem to think that we should all get in volved in some kind of social experiment where we all need to co-operate, which is fine but lets have some cahnce of making it work. I have allways supported CCP in the past but cannot watch my corps funds drain away while we are being used as what i feel is a kinda CCP ant nest experiment
Cool dude	Posted - 2004.12.23 02:27:00 - [2] Edited by: Cool dude on 23/12/2004 02:43:49 We have been running a POS for a few weeks now. We have mined a lot of moon minerals amd have done simple reactions to produce several materials. The upshot of the this is that I can say with some authority that at the moment there is no way that anyone can sustain a pos without losing 35mil per week. CCP's response to this is "Well we now have 150 pos's in place so they must be working" Well I beleive that the time has come for some action from the playerbase. As ceo of a meduim sized corp I cannot sustain this money sink on my corp. Therefore i think it is time for action! I propose that everyone that has a POS online at the moment take it down. That way we will show CCP that they need to do something about them NOW. POS's were supposed to be the flagship of the shiva/exodus patch but at the moment are of no use at all. CCP seem to think that we should all get in volved in some kind of social experiment where we all need to co-operate, which is fine but lets have some cahnce of making it work. I have allways supported CCP in the past but cannot watch my corps funds drain away while we are being used as what i feel is a kinda CCP ant nest experiment
hobie	Posted - 2004.12.23 02:32:00 - [3] I have had a station for about two weeks as well. There is no point in continuing to be CCP's guinea pig in this. They must have messed up with the math while planning. After comparing notes with other station owners, I am taking my station offline as of right now. hobie OSV Corp
hobie	Posted - 2004.12.23 02:32:00 - [4] I have had a station for about two weeks as well. There is no point in continuing to be CCP's guinea pig in this. They must have messed up with the math while planning. After comparing notes with other station owners, I am taking my station offline as of right now. hobie OSV Corp
Naverin	Posted - 2004.12.23 02:48:00 - [5] shut mine down 3 days after it went up.. made no sence :/ and i couldnt keep dealing with the isk needed for fuel
Naverin	Posted - 2004.12.23 02:48:00 - [6] shut mine down 3 days after it went up.. made no sence :/ and i couldnt keep dealing with the isk needed for fuel
Johnson McCrae	Posted - 2004.12.23 03:02:00 - [7] I do recall CCP saying they'd be for large corps, and would be money sinks. Nobody listened, so here you are. Broke. The POS's are not the be all end all items of Exodus. But many thought they were going to make big ISK from them. Won't happen for some time. It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya! [ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
Johnson McCrae	Posted - 2004.12.23 03:02:00 - [8] I do recall CCP saying they'd be for large corps, and would be money sinks. Nobody listened, so here you are. Broke. The POS's are not the be all end all items of Exodus. But many thought they were going to make big ISK from them. Won't happen for some time. It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya! [ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
w0rmy	Posted - 2004.12.23 03:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Johnson McCrae I do recall CCP saying they'd be for large corps, and would be money sinks. Ahhh that makes perfect sense... Make it so the only people who can afford them are those who exploit (Before you all nut off at me, I dont mean all corps or people, im just generalising). Money sinks dont work, this has been proven time and time again by every game thats tried to impliment one.
w0rmy	Posted - 2004.12.23 03:09:00 - [10] Originally by: Johnson McCrae I do recall CCP saying they'd be for large corps, and would be money sinks. Ahhh that makes perfect sense... Make it so the only people who can afford them are those who exploit (Before you all nut off at me, I dont mean all corps or people, im just generalising). Money sinks dont work, this has been proven time and time again by every game thats tried to impliment one.
Grantavious	Posted - 2004.12.23 03:30:00 - [11] I have invested well over 400million isk in this POS, took 1 week to make 10million back, at this rate it should take me 40 weeks to break even and thats if I dont spend anything for weekly fuel costs. I now know why no one will attack it, cuz in a week it will be packed up and on the market. CCP should try player owned parking lots, a bit cheaper to maintain, less headaches and will still serve the same function.
Grantavious	Posted - 2004.12.23 03:30:00 - [12] I have invested well over 400million isk in this POS, took 1 week to make 10million back, at this rate it should take me 40 weeks to break even and thats if I dont spend anything for weekly fuel costs. I now know why no one will attack it, cuz in a week it will be packed up and on the market. CCP should try player owned parking lots, a bit cheaper to maintain, less headaches and will still serve the same function.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:36:00 - [13] Edited by: voidvim on 23/12/2004 06:37:26 In the intro movie for Exodus it showed the POS as the new cool toy in EvE. Something a group could work together on. So we saved up and got one NOW after our small corp has spent hundreds of man hours of our game time mining and hauling. Not to even consider the countless hours making and revising spread sheets just to see if it was even viable. We have come to the conclusion that POS are not worth it unless changes are made. We feel a great sense of loss as it is very hard for our corp to give up all the hard work (time wise) we have done. There is a huge amount of math involved in working out if a POS will work or not. if you want contact me in game or ask me to postthe info on this thread. We decided to run a pos because. we wanted to help lower the cost of tech II parts and thus tech II modules and ships be part of a large production chain work with other production and trading corps we did not expect to make billions, just enough for it to be worth our time. :( On the exodus part of the EvE web site it talks about cpu and grid up grade for the pos so we took this on good faith. http://www.eve-online.com/features/exodus/deployables/controlarrays.asp so you can understand why we feel lied too by CPP when we find out that they don't want to introduce them. We found it makes the most isk to sell just the raw material as we have too little cpu for the 2 reactions we need. This has allowed us to break even but that is hardly the point of running a business. Every body we sell to only needs a small amount, also we can not seem to find buyer for our basic gas's and as the price of the metals we sell fails our pos will return to the point before 50 isotope's where added to ice, making a loss.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:36:00 - [14] Edited by: voidvim on 23/12/2004 06:37:26 In the intro movie for Exodus it showed the POS as the new cool toy in EvE. Something a group could work together on. So we saved up and got one NOW after our small corp has spent hundreds of man hours of our game time mining and hauling. Not to even consider the countless hours making and revising spread sheets just to see if it was even viable. We have come to the conclusion that POS are not worth it unless changes are made. We feel a great sense of loss as it is very hard for our corp to give up all the hard work (time wise) we have done. There is a huge amount of math involved in working out if a POS will work or not. if you want contact me in game or ask me to postthe info on this thread. We decided to run a pos because. we wanted to help lower the cost of tech II parts and thus tech II modules and ships be part of a large production chain work with other production and trading corps we did not expect to make billions, just enough for it to be worth our time. :( On the exodus part of the EvE web site it talks about cpu and grid up grade for the pos so we took this on good faith. http://www.eve-online.com/features/exodus/deployables/controlarrays.asp so you can understand why we feel lied too by CPP when we find out that they don't want to introduce them. We found it makes the most isk to sell just the raw material as we have too little cpu for the 2 reactions we need. This has allowed us to break even but that is hardly the point of running a business. Every body we sell to only needs a small amount, also we can not seem to find buyer for our basic gas's and as the price of the metals we sell fails our pos will return to the point before 50 isotope's where added to ice, making a loss.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:38:00 - [15] CCP fails to understand that people will compare mining ice with the most profitable thing they can do not the price of mining trit. logic and market anlysis suggests that ice will come down in price and thus through the production chain tech II parts but this does not effect us. What CPP fails to see is small corps mine their own ice so than makes no difference to us the time and effort is the same. It is not the rare material that's the problem. It is the common ones they need to be like trit in that they sell for small amount but have a high volume of sale. The problem is no one has the cpu free to do reactions with the common gas's CCP is worried that a small to medium corp will be able to do the whole show on their own if people can do more than one reaction with their pos. But large corps have isk to set up and the man power and time to easy run many pos than any why so that does not stand up as a reason. if a small corp try to run 3 pos they would triple their cost (but not triple their profit) and triple the time needed to operate them. A small corp needs to be able to do more than just make 1 basic reaction with it's pos. CCP requires 3 pos to make 1 advanced reaction or one of the pos not mining or making a basic reactions. This just not enough isk to go around for 3 small corps.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:38:00 - [16] CCP fails to understand that people will compare mining ice with the most profitable thing they can do not the price of mining trit. logic and market anlysis suggests that ice will come down in price and thus through the production chain tech II parts but this does not effect us. What CPP fails to see is small corps mine their own ice so than makes no difference to us the time and effort is the same. It is not the rare material that's the problem. It is the common ones they need to be like trit in that they sell for small amount but have a high volume of sale. The problem is no one has the cpu free to do reactions with the common gas's CCP is worried that a small to medium corp will be able to do the whole show on their own if people can do more than one reaction with their pos. But large corps have isk to set up and the man power and time to easy run many pos than any why so that does not stand up as a reason. if a small corp try to run 3 pos they would triple their cost (but not triple their profit) and triple the time needed to operate them. A small corp needs to be able to do more than just make 1 basic reaction with it's pos. CCP requires 3 pos to make 1 advanced reaction or one of the pos not mining or making a basic reactions. This just not enough isk to go around for 3 small corps.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:39:00 - [17] Ways that would solve the POS problem release the cpu and grid upgrades that you say you would. (and return the good will of your customers) lower the cpu of structers and rise grid (so the cost of running the pos stays the same) lower the reaction times (so we done have to waste a weeks mining time) increase the grid on the towers Just because more people are putting up pos does not mean that they are viable. Few people will take the time needed to work out accurate math models. But will quit after a whilewhen they find out their wallet is going down, not up. a house of cards can be built very high. it falls down all the same.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:39:00 - [18] Ways that would solve the POS problem release the cpu and grid upgrades that you say you would. (and return the good will of your customers) lower the cpu of structers and rise grid (so the cost of running the pos stays the same) lower the reaction times (so we done have to waste a weeks mining time) increase the grid on the towers Just because more people are putting up pos does not mean that they are viable. Few people will take the time needed to work out accurate math models. But will quit after a whilewhen they find out their wallet is going down, not up. a house of cards can be built very high. it falls down all the same.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:39:00 - [19] two small carps trying to make Carbonite Armor Plates together. lets just say the small corp has the raw material on their moon to make the advanced material Crystalline Carboniteand a second has the raw materials to make Sylramic Fibers. operating cost are 55 million per week, 7 million trade goods and 48 million in mining time that the corp could be make isk other ways. and we will not count time waste configuring the pos. if a small corps takes 1 week to do one basic reaction then second week to do the other and third and forth week to do the advanced reaction it would cost at current ice price 220 million then add 220 million of the worth corp for the other advanced reaction 440 million over 4 weeks. Pos supposed to reduce the cost of tech II parts so I used the lowest price on the market. it take a week for the factory's to make the tech II parts buts that does not effect the pos at all so we shall leave it out of the calculations. at the end of the this would give you 504000 Crystalline Carbonite and 436800 Sylramic Fibers together they will make about 11454.55 Carbonite Armor Plate sell at 5900 isk . thats 67,581,845 divide by 2 (half for each corp) 33,790,922 - 220,000,000 (operating cost) = -166,209,077.5 so the bottom line is -41,552,269.25 loss a week I will add that both corps could mine with 1 or 2 harvesters and sell the raw but that nothing compared to the loss. Also if they just sell the raw or basic materials it means some has to pay for them so they just pas one the cost. We would Really Like a DEV replay to this post and for them to explained how my calculations are a total wrong or what I have not included in my calculations.
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 06:39:00 - [20] two small carps trying to make Carbonite Armor Plates together. lets just say the small corp has the raw material on their moon to make the advanced material Crystalline Carboniteand a second has the raw materials to make Sylramic Fibers. operating cost are 55 million per week, 7 million trade goods and 48 million in mining time that the corp could be make isk other ways. and we will not count time waste configuring the pos. if a small corps takes 1 week to do one basic reaction then second week to do the other and third and forth week to do the advanced reaction it would cost at current ice price 220 million then add 220 million of the worth corp for the other advanced reaction 440 million over 4 weeks. Pos supposed to reduce the cost of tech II parts so I used the lowest price on the market. it take a week for the factory's to make the tech II parts buts that does not effect the pos at all so we shall leave it out of the calculations. at the end of the this would give you 504000 Crystalline Carbonite and 436800 Sylramic Fibers together they will make about 11454.55 Carbonite Armor Plate sell at 5900 isk . thats 67,581,845 divide by 2 (half for each corp) 33,790,922 - 220,000,000 (operating cost) = -166,209,077.5 so the bottom line is -41,552,269.25 loss a week I will add that both corps could mine with 1 or 2 harvesters and sell the raw but that nothing compared to the loss. Also if they just sell the raw or basic materials it means some has to pay for them so they just pas one the cost. We would Really Like a DEV replay to this post and for them to explained how my calculations are a total wrong or what I have not included in my calculations.
NTRabbit	Posted - 2004.12.23 07:17:00 - [21] How hard is it for a large corp to send 2 or 3 people out trading to make up this "35mill a week" shortfall? Im in a one man corp and i make that easily, im quite certain a corp large enough to buy, operate, and sustain with ice mining a POS setup should not have any problems doing other activities to make money at the same time. Clearly a corp with a very small member count, for example Placid Free Traders LLC and their 18 member count, should and do have difficulty doing this. No corp, large or small, should be expecting to make a 200% profit by anchoring a station for a week - anyone believing that has been spoiled by fables of miner II BPo's and multiple t2 BPo lottery drops to one corp/character. -------- #eve-online irc.stratics.com - Former official IRC channel (Legacy) #eve-online irc.coldfront.net - Official Unofficial IRC channel WE R 4TW!
NTRabbit	Posted - 2004.12.23 07:17:00 - [22] How hard is it for a large corp to send 2 or 3 people out trading to make up this "35mill a week" shortfall? Im in a one man corp and i make that easily, im quite certain a corp large enough to buy, operate, and sustain with ice mining a POS setup should not have any problems doing other activities to make money at the same time. Clearly a corp with a very small member count, for example Placid Free Traders LLC and their 18 member count, should and do have difficulty doing this. No corp, large or small, should be expecting to make a 200% profit by anchoring a station for a week - anyone believing that has been spoiled by fables of miner II BPo's and multiple t2 BPo lottery drops to one corp/character. -------- #eve-online irc.stratics.com - Former official IRC channel (Legacy) #eve-online irc.coldfront.net - Official Unofficial IRC channel WE R 4TW!
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.12.23 07:20:00 - [23] um. STK's POS is making craploads of cash atm. All you need is 0.0, an intensive refining array and people who mine a lot to take advantage of it. The miners have to ice mine 20hours a week for the fuel there and spend 6.2mil a week on trade goods. After that they can mine bistot to their hearts content in some arse-end of the galaxy system. They make money, STK makes money.
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.12.23 07:20:00 - [24] um. STK's POS is making craploads of cash atm. All you need is 0.0, an intensive refining array and people who mine a lot to take advantage of it. The miners have to ice mine 20hours a week for the fuel there and spend 6.2mil a week on trade goods. After that they can mine bistot to their hearts content in some arse-end of the galaxy system. They make money, STK makes money.
mrbabooon	Posted - 2004.12.23 07:47:00 - [25] mine your ice..then it costs next to nothing..and we dont have more posts about this on forums. ours POS is fine.
mrbabooon	Posted - 2004.12.23 07:47:00 - [26] mine your ice..then it costs next to nothing..and we dont have more posts about this on forums. ours POS is fine.
Dathias	Posted - 2004.12.23 08:17:00 - [27] If you are lucky and find good moon then you can make (dont know if possible) small profit. Bud you must mining high end raw minerals. You can make little profit with them. But for regular production you need common raw minerals and common simple reactions too (sulfurid acid etc..). problem is: nobody want make them because its huge money sink. If everybody must mine high end raw mins for little bit profit then is T2 component production sentence to fail for lack lowend raw mins and reactions. And if price will be higer for big demand.. nobody want produce T2 comp for their mad overall costs.
Dathias	Posted - 2004.12.23 08:17:00 - [28] If you are lucky and find good moon then you can make (dont know if possible) small profit. Bud you must mining high end raw minerals. You can make little profit with them. But for regular production you need common raw minerals and common simple reactions too (sulfurid acid etc..). problem is: nobody want make them because its huge money sink. If everybody must mine high end raw mins for little bit profit then is T2 component production sentence to fail for lack lowend raw mins and reactions. And if price will be higer for big demand.. nobody want produce T2 comp for their mad overall costs.
Hakera	Posted - 2004.12.23 08:24:00 - [29] Originally by: mrbabooon mine your ice..then it costs next to nothing..and we dont have more posts about this on forums. ours POS is fine. this is incorrect, its still a cost in materials and man hours. If you could sell your ice for 10 mill, then its a 10mill cost, if those characters mining the ice could have mined more value in veldspaer with their barges, then you should do that instead and buy the isotopes. You cannot ignore ice as a cost though, its just not good business. Needless to say, my POS is in my hanger after the fun feeling of playing with something new left when I realised it would only be a isk sink. But as Redundancy says unless you find another use for them like 0.0 mining stations, they are not meant to be profitable . Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Hakera	Posted - 2004.12.23 08:24:00 - [30] Originally by: mrbabooon mine your ice..then it costs next to nothing..and we dont have more posts about this on forums. ours POS is fine. this is incorrect, its still a cost in materials and man hours. If you could sell your ice for 10 mill, then its a 10mill cost, if those characters mining the ice could have mined more value in veldspaer with their barges, then you should do that instead and buy the isotopes. You cannot ignore ice as a cost though, its just not good business. Needless to say, my POS is in my hanger after the fun feeling of playing with something new left when I realised it would only be a isk sink. But as Redundancy says unless you find another use for them like 0.0 mining stations, they are not meant to be profitable . Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Reptar	Posted - 2004.12.23 08:25:00 - [31] If you havnt done the paper work to find how its profitabile then please sell yours. The ones I invested in are making tonnes and tonnes of isk atm
Reptar	Posted - 2004.12.23 08:25:00 - [32] If you havnt done the paper work to find how its profitabile then please sell yours. The ones I invested in are making tonnes and tonnes of isk atm
swisher	Posted - 2004.12.23 08:51:00 - [33] Yeap would have to agree the POS are a waste in time. My corp has one which we will soon be taking down and selling or just put it up there with all the stolen goods in my collection of random things. I dont care anymore CCP uses us as hit and miss trial and error..and the more they treat us this way the more fuel they give me to be a griefer..so I guess we all have are place in EvE somewhere...The carebears of Xetic and say this and that about there little Carebear land they have going but not everyone wants to put in 1m hours mining ..like I have said before and I'll say it again...we dont play eve as a 2nd job so dont make it like one..We play it because we enjoy the game.. But then again thats just my thoughts...what do I know. -swish
swisher	Posted - 2004.12.23 08:51:00 - [34] Yeap would have to agree the POS are a waste in time. My corp has one which we will soon be taking down and selling or just put it up there with all the stolen goods in my collection of random things. I dont care anymore CCP uses us as hit and miss trial and error..and the more they treat us this way the more fuel they give me to be a griefer..so I guess we all have are place in EvE somewhere...The carebears of Xetic and say this and that about there little Carebear land they have going but not everyone wants to put in 1m hours mining ..like I have said before and I'll say it again...we dont play eve as a 2nd job so dont make it like one..We play it because we enjoy the game.. But then again thats just my thoughts...what do I know. -swish
Lady Rona	Posted - 2004.12.23 10:05:00 - [35] Well our POS is running we got enough Fuel now for a year (yep takes some ISK). But having this POS in 0.0 and we can leave the BS at POS and the Mining ships it saves a lot of time moving around. With this we can generate more income due people hunting in belts on BS and mining the good Minerals. Its not the Cost of maintenance but how you gonna use the POS are you gonna see it as home or only use it for Moon mining. When you gonna use only for Moon mining well your bad it will cost ya ISK. We got most members at POS and we not even that big a corp usually 5 peeps online but you need to coordinate your efforts. Downsides CCP needs to change in my opinion: Corp hangers need more space in it. We got 3 deployed now and still not enough cargo space. Need factorys with POS :-) then we dont have to fly back for ammo and stuff. Maintenance Array needs bit better interface. Need More CPU and Grid on POS. Well this might not sum it all up maybe but we are very happy with the POS handeling at moment :).
Lady Rona	Posted - 2004.12.23 10:05:00 - [36] Well our POS is running we got enough Fuel now for a year (yep takes some ISK). But having this POS in 0.0 and we can leave the BS at POS and the Mining ships it saves a lot of time moving around. With this we can generate more income due people hunting in belts on BS and mining the good Minerals. Its not the Cost of maintenance but how you gonna use the POS are you gonna see it as home or only use it for Moon mining. When you gonna use only for Moon mining well your bad it will cost ya ISK. We got most members at POS and we not even that big a corp usually 5 peeps online but you need to coordinate your efforts. Downsides CCP needs to change in my opinion: Corp hangers need more space in it. We got 3 deployed now and still not enough cargo space. Need factorys with POS :-) then we dont have to fly back for ammo and stuff. Maintenance Array needs bit better interface. Need More CPU and Grid on POS. Well this might not sum it all up maybe but we are very happy with the POS handeling at moment :).
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.12.23 10:14:00 - [37] Originally by: Lady Rona Well our POS is running we got enough Fuel now for a year (yep takes some ISK). But having this POS in 0.0 and we can leave the BS at POS and the Mining ships it saves a lot of time moving around. With this we can generate more income due people hunting in belts on BS and mining the good Minerals. Its not the Cost of maintenance but how you gonna use the POS are you gonna see it as home or only use it for Moon mining. When you gonna use only for Moon mining well your bad it will cost ya ISK. We got most members at POS and we not even that big a corp usually 5 peeps online but you need to coordinate your efforts. Downsides CCP needs to change in my opinion: Corp hangers need more space in it. We got 3 deployed now and still not enough cargo space. Need factorys with POS :-) then we dont have to fly back for ammo and stuff. Maintenance Array needs bit better interface. Need More CPU and Grid on POS. Well this might not sum it all up maybe but we are very happy with the POS handeling at moment :). Word. Even the ability to put 2 pos's at the same moon would help as then we can have one for defence and the other for pure refining and production. Those using POS's just to make moon minerals have indeed got it all wrong and shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Swisher, you're not in a corp with an industrial backbone. You shouldn't have a POS. Period.
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.12.23 10:14:00 - [38] Originally by: Lady Rona Well our POS is running we got enough Fuel now for a year (yep takes some ISK). But having this POS in 0.0 and we can leave the BS at POS and the Mining ships it saves a lot of time moving around. With this we can generate more income due people hunting in belts on BS and mining the good Minerals. Its not the Cost of maintenance but how you gonna use the POS are you gonna see it as home or only use it for Moon mining. When you gonna use only for Moon mining well your bad it will cost ya ISK. We got most members at POS and we not even that big a corp usually 5 peeps online but you need to coordinate your efforts. Downsides CCP needs to change in my opinion: Corp hangers need more space in it. We got 3 deployed now and still not enough cargo space. Need factorys with POS :-) then we dont have to fly back for ammo and stuff. Maintenance Array needs bit better interface. Need More CPU and Grid on POS. Well this might not sum it all up maybe but we are very happy with the POS handeling at moment :). Word. Even the ability to put 2 pos's at the same moon would help as then we can have one for defence and the other for pure refining and production. Those using POS's just to make moon minerals have indeed got it all wrong and shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Swisher, you're not in a corp with an industrial backbone. You shouldn't have a POS. Period.
KompleX	Posted - 2004.12.23 10:23:00 - [39] Originally by: Johnson McCrae I do recall CCP saying they'd be for large corps,and would be money sinks. . Nobody listened, so here you are. Broke. The POS's are not the be all end all items of Exodus. But many thought they were going to make big ISK from them. Won't happen for some time. That doesn't make much sence, does it? Some tweaks/additions that I think would make POS' more profitable would be: * Factories (absolute must) * Lab's (absolute must) * Reduce sentry guns dammage by a whole lot (it's impossible to kill a pos atm, realize it) * Give them abit more grid and cpu * reduce the cost of running it (You actually lose money by having one)
KompleX	Posted - 2004.12.23 10:23:00 - [40] Originally by: Johnson McCrae I do recall CCP saying they'd be for large corps,and would be money sinks. . Nobody listened, so here you are. Broke. The POS's are not the be all end all items of Exodus. But many thought they were going to make big ISK from them. Won't happen for some time. That doesn't make much sence, does it? Some tweaks/additions that I think would make POS' more profitable would be: * Factories (absolute must) * Lab's (absolute must) * Reduce sentry guns dammage by a whole lot (it's impossible to kill a pos atm, realize it) * Give them abit more grid and cpu * reduce the cost of running it (You actually lose money by having one)
Lady Rona	Posted - 2004.12.23 10:39:00 - [41] Pos defenses are fine a small corp like ours needs those defences. agree on lab slots totally :-), but why introduce those if POS is easy to take like you want then they would be useless again like factory slots.
Lady Rona	Posted - 2004.12.23 10:39:00 - [42] Pos defenses are fine a small corp like ours needs those defences. agree on lab slots totally :-), but why introduce those if POS is easy to take like you want then they would be useless again like factory slots.
Slithereen	Posted - 2004.12.23 10:51:00 - [43] The whole POS concept was borked from the start. Obvious money sinks simply don't work---people get smart to them. The whole concept of trying to favor large corps with them is also borked. Just like in any real economy, the bulk of manufacturing and sales are being handled by the small guy, the independents, small and medium businesses. Any sort of favoritism towards the big guys have always ultimately failed for the whole community. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Slithereen	Posted - 2004.12.23 10:51:00 - [44] The whole POS concept was borked from the start. Obvious money sinks simply don't work---people get smart to them. The whole concept of trying to favor large corps with them is also borked. Just like in any real economy, the bulk of manufacturing and sales are being handled by the small guy, the independents, small and medium businesses. Any sort of favoritism towards the big guys have always ultimately failed for the whole community. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 11:43:00 - [45] Originally by: Hakera Originally by: mrbabooon mine your ice..then it costs next to nothing..and we dont have more posts about this on forums. ours POS is fine. this is incorrect, its still a cost in materials and man hours. If you could sell your ice for 10 mill, then its a 10mill cost, if those characters mining the ice could have mined more value in veldspaer with their barges, then you should do that instead and buy the isotopes. You cannot ignore ice as a cost though, its just not good business. Needless to say, my POS is in my hanger after the fun feeling of playing with something new left when I realised it would only be a isk sink. But as Redundancy says unless you find another use for them like 0.0 mining stations, they are not meant to be profitable . People make believe that ICE is another type of Zydrine they can milk at high prices, but it isn't. At this stage ice products got little more than "X" as price value, where X is what people end up willing to buy it for. If those who run a POS mine the ICE themselfs they get it at low cost. AND YES; you can make more pr hour mine scordite, but sometimes out of necessarity you need to mine Veldspar too. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 11:43:00 - [46] Originally by: Hakera Originally by: mrbabooon mine your ice..then it costs next to nothing..and we dont have more posts about this on forums. ours POS is fine. this is incorrect, its still a cost in materials and man hours. If you could sell your ice for 10 mill, then its a 10mill cost, if those characters mining the ice could have mined more value in veldspaer with their barges, then you should do that instead and buy the isotopes. You cannot ignore ice as a cost though, its just not good business. Needless to say, my POS is in my hanger after the fun feeling of playing with something new left when I realised it would only be a isk sink. But as Redundancy says unless you find another use for them like 0.0 mining stations, they are not meant to be profitable . People make believe that ICE is another type of Zydrine they can milk at high prices, but it isn't. At this stage ice products got little more than "X" as price value, where X is what people end up willing to buy it for. If those who run a POS mine the ICE themselfs they get it at low cost. AND YES; you can make more pr hour mine scordite, but sometimes out of necessarity you need to mine Veldspar too. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2004.12.23 11:56:00 - [47] If you build a station next to ark/bistot, and you can't make money, then you should probably un-install.
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2004.12.23 11:56:00 - [48] If you build a station next to ark/bistot, and you can't make money, then you should probably un-install.
Cool dude	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:04:00 - [49] I accept that you can make isk by using them as remote refinerys. Although the percentage of ore taken by the mobile refinery's makes it difficult to justify. However my original post was reffering to using them to make tech2 components (which is thier primary role), which I maintain that it is impossible to do without making a loss. If anyone is managing to make a profit doing this then please post here and explain to us how you are achieving this.
Cool dude	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:04:00 - [50] I accept that you can make isk by using them as remote refinerys. Although the percentage of ore taken by the mobile refinery's makes it difficult to justify. However my original post was reffering to using them to make tech2 components (which is thier primary role), which I maintain that it is impossible to do without making a loss. If anyone is managing to make a profit doing this then please post here and explain to us how you are achieving this.
Shintai	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:05:00 - [51] Those using a POS as pure military or refinery stations are useless in this thread. This is about Tech2 components and production. Not about if your refining of bis, ark etc is worth the time. If POS doesn¦t get profitable, we wont see any Tech2 other than agent Tech2. There might be a few complex reaction POS that makes profit. But only due to putting the loss on the simple reaction POS, and thats only a matter of time before that changes. I will post numbers later ¼_¼ Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Shintai	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:05:00 - [52] Those using a POS as pure military or refinery stations are useless in this thread. This is about Tech2 components and production. Not about if your refining of bis, ark etc is worth the time. If POS doesn¦t get profitable, we wont see any Tech2 other than agent Tech2. There might be a few complex reaction POS that makes profit. But only due to putting the loss on the simple reaction POS, and thats only a matter of time before that changes. I will post numbers later ¼_¼ Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Sassinak	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:10:00 - [53] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz If you build a station next to ark/bistot, and you can't make money, then you should probably un-install. Sass Arcane Technologies
Sassinak	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:10:00 - [54] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz If you build a station next to ark/bistot, and you can't make money, then you should probably un-install. Sass Arcane Technologies
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:14:00 - [55] Originally by: Shintai Those using a POS as pure military or refinery stations are useless in this thread. This is about Tech2 components and production. Not about if your refining of bis, ark etc is worth the time. If POS doesn¦t get profitable, we wont see any Tech2 other than agent Tech2. There might be a few complex reaction POS that makes profit. But only due to putting the loss on the simple reaction POS, and thats only a matter of time before that changes. I will post numbers later ¼_¼ A POS is a multi purpose platform, not just limited to one thing. However tech2 production takes time, a long time. You need to get a lot of POS's etablished, then trade of moon minerals, reactions to get it fired up. Its a long chain, and at the mooment we are just at the first stage of that chain, profit wont come before end of the chain which isnt today, or next week. A POS is a investment for the future, and if a corp can't mine their own ice to cover the fuel costs, I dont really see what they need a POS in the first place for. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:14:00 - [56] Originally by: Shintai Those using a POS as pure military or refinery stations are useless in this thread. This is about Tech2 components and production. Not about if your refining of bis, ark etc is worth the time. If POS doesn¦t get profitable, we wont see any Tech2 other than agent Tech2. There might be a few complex reaction POS that makes profit. But only due to putting the loss on the simple reaction POS, and thats only a matter of time before that changes. I will post numbers later ¼_¼ A POS is a multi purpose platform, not just limited to one thing. However tech2 production takes time, a long time. You need to get a lot of POS's etablished, then trade of moon minerals, reactions to get it fired up. Its a long chain, and at the mooment we are just at the first stage of that chain, profit wont come before end of the chain which isnt today, or next week. A POS is a investment for the future, and if a corp can't mine their own ice to cover the fuel costs, I dont really see what they need a POS in the first place for. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Tas Devil	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:16:00 - [57] It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ?
Tas Devil	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:16:00 - [58] It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ?
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:20:00 - [59] Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? Maybe those that make ISK from the POS's got a realistic view on the whole process, with a more modest view on revenues and profit ;-) Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:20:00 - [60] Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? Maybe those that make ISK from the POS's got a realistic view on the whole process, with a more modest view on revenues and profit ;-) Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:23:00 - [61] Edited by: Kerosene on 23/12/2004 12:24:08 Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? Phase 1. Get POS, 0.0 system with high end ores and an intensive refinery or 2. Phase 2. ? Phase 3. Profit. Now this is the important part. All us deep space corps maintaining a profitable station are also producing moon minerals! And we've got no use for them! So guess what you compounds reactor folks get from the people you're trying to remove from this thread?. Seriously you need to see that the deep space refinery POS's will not want to move their moon mins all the way up to empire so find someone selling moon mins, I think you'll find they are uber cheap from them. Selling Thulium btw atm. Contact either me or Tal'Ra
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:23:00 - [62] Edited by: Kerosene on 23/12/2004 12:24:08 Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? Phase 1. Get POS, 0.0 system with high end ores and an intensive refinery or 2. Phase 2. ? Phase 3. Profit. Now this is the important part. All us deep space corps maintaining a profitable station are also producing moon minerals! And we've got no use for them! So guess what you compounds reactor folks get from the people you're trying to remove from this thread?. Seriously you need to see that the deep space refinery POS's will not want to move their moon mins all the way up to empire so find someone selling moon mins, I think you'll find they are uber cheap from them. Selling Thulium btw atm. Contact either me or Tal'Ra
Tas Devil	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:23:00 - [63] And if I may add ... CCP is absolutly cynical in its handling of tech 2 components prices.... because they introduced POS to try and lower tech 2 components costs and hence potentially tech 2.... Yet seeing this will not happen very soon ...they are now getting agents to flood the market with tech 2 components...drops of 500-1000 tech components being common now... so I bet you they will turn around and claim that POS do work in a few weeks...when all tech 2 components will have dropped in value as the markets are flooded... The reality is these tech 2 agent drops are killing POS at the source by undermining whatever little economic sense the whole tech 2 component manufacturing chain has...or had... Sorry but there is a reason countries don't give their economic policy decisions to software programers and developpers... perhaps its time CCP employ an economist before they further destroy the player economy with such dratic intervention...
Tas Devil	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:23:00 - [64] And if I may add ... CCP is absolutly cynical in its handling of tech 2 components prices.... because they introduced POS to try and lower tech 2 components costs and hence potentially tech 2.... Yet seeing this will not happen very soon ...they are now getting agents to flood the market with tech 2 components...drops of 500-1000 tech components being common now... so I bet you they will turn around and claim that POS do work in a few weeks...when all tech 2 components will have dropped in value as the markets are flooded... The reality is these tech 2 agent drops are killing POS at the source by undermining whatever little economic sense the whole tech 2 component manufacturing chain has...or had... Sorry but there is a reason countries don't give their economic policy decisions to software programers and developpers... perhaps its time CCP employ an economist before they further destroy the player economy with such dratic intervention...
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:26:00 - [65] Edited by: Discorporation on 23/12/2004 12:28:50 What interests me is that these things are T I basic towers. The prospect of an XL Tachyon Beam II excites me to no end. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:26:00 - [66] Edited by: Discorporation on 23/12/2004 12:28:50 What interests me is that these things are T I basic towers. The prospect of an XL Tachyon Beam II excites me to no end. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Inzidious	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:27:00 - [67] Get rid of the insane amounts of T2 components being handed out like candy by agents, and we might have a booming buiseness. This will crush the T2 industry at first, but POS owners will soon see the potential market, and make an effort to make it work.
Inzidious	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:27:00 - [68] Get rid of the insane amounts of T2 components being handed out like candy by agents, and we might have a booming buiseness. This will crush the T2 industry at first, but POS owners will soon see the potential market, and make an effort to make it work.
Shintai	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:29:00 - [69] Edited by: Shintai on 23/12/2004 12:30:41 Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 23/12/2004 12:24:08 Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? Phase 1. Get POS, 0.0 system with high end ores and an intensive refinery or 2. Phase 2. ? Phase 3. Profit. Now this is the important part. All us deep space corps maintaining a profitable station are also producing moon minerals! And we've got no use for them! So guess what you compounds reactor folks get from the people you're trying to remove from this thread?. Seriously you need to see that the deep space refinery POS's will not want to move their moon mins all the way up to empire so find someone selling moon mins, I think you'll find they are uber cheap from them. Selling Thulium btw atm. Contact either me or Tal'Ra You forgot 1 tiny part here. A POS can only have 1 reactor, since you need silo¦s too. So without a simple reaction everything you mine is useless garbage. Since you gonna need a whole extra POS for that. And anyone with an intensive refinery cant do it notmatter what. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Shintai	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:29:00 - [70] Edited by: Shintai on 23/12/2004 12:30:41 Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 23/12/2004 12:24:08 Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? Phase 1. Get POS, 0.0 system with high end ores and an intensive refinery or 2. Phase 2. ? Phase 3. Profit. Now this is the important part. All us deep space corps maintaining a profitable station are also producing moon minerals! And we've got no use for them! So guess what you compounds reactor folks get from the people you're trying to remove from this thread?. Seriously you need to see that the deep space refinery POS's will not want to move their moon mins all the way up to empire so find someone selling moon mins, I think you'll find they are uber cheap from them. Selling Thulium btw atm. Contact either me or Tal'Ra You forgot 1 tiny part here. A POS can only have 1 reactor, since you need silo¦s too. So without a simple reaction everything you mine is useless garbage. Since you gonna need a whole extra POS for that. And anyone with an intensive refinery cant do it notmatter what. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:31:00 - [71] Originally by: Tas Devil And if I may add ... CCP is absolutly cynical in its handling of tech 2 components prices.... because they introduced POS to try and lower tech 2 components costs and hence potentially tech 2.... Yet seeing this will not happen very soon ...they are now getting agents to flood the market with tech 2 components...drops of 500-1000 tech components being common now... so I bet you they will turn around and claim that POS do work in a few weeks...when all tech 2 components will have dropped in value as the markets are flooded... The reality is these tech 2 agent drops are killing POS at the source by undermining whatever little economic sense the whole tech 2 component manufacturing chain has...or had... Sorry but there is a reason countries don't give their economic policy decisions to software programers and developpers... perhaps its time CCP employ an economist before they further destroy the player economy with such dratic intervention... Totaly wrong, the market need to be flooded with t2 components, it will bring the price of components down to a realistic value. 200k for a Graviton reactor is not a realistic price (just as an example). It will need to get worse before it get better. You need to take the whole picture into view, not just that little flick in the corner. And a few weeks is to narrow time frame, try a few months. Then you will see a bigger impact of the POS's. At time being its just feeble baby steps. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:31:00 - [72] Originally by: Tas Devil And if I may add ... CCP is absolutly cynical in its handling of tech 2 components prices.... because they introduced POS to try and lower tech 2 components costs and hence potentially tech 2.... Yet seeing this will not happen very soon ...they are now getting agents to flood the market with tech 2 components...drops of 500-1000 tech components being common now... so I bet you they will turn around and claim that POS do work in a few weeks...when all tech 2 components will have dropped in value as the markets are flooded... The reality is these tech 2 agent drops are killing POS at the source by undermining whatever little economic sense the whole tech 2 component manufacturing chain has...or had... Sorry but there is a reason countries don't give their economic policy decisions to software programers and developpers... perhaps its time CCP employ an economist before they further destroy the player economy with such dratic intervention... Totaly wrong, the market need to be flooded with t2 components, it will bring the price of components down to a realistic value. 200k for a Graviton reactor is not a realistic price (just as an example). It will need to get worse before it get better. You need to take the whole picture into view, not just that little flick in the corner. And a few weeks is to narrow time frame, try a few months. Then you will see a bigger impact of the POS's. At time being its just feeble baby steps. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:32:00 - [73] Originally by: Shintai Edited by: Shintai on 23/12/2004 12:30:41 Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 23/12/2004 12:24:08 Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? Phase 1. Get POS, 0.0 system with high end ores and an intensive refinery or 2. Phase 2. ? Phase 3. Profit. Now this is the important part. All us deep space corps maintaining a profitable station are also producing moon minerals! And we've got no use for them! So guess what you compounds reactor folks get from the people you're trying to remove from this thread?. Seriously you need to see that the deep space refinery POS's will not want to move their moon mins all the way up to empire so find someone selling moon mins, I think you'll find they are uber cheap from them. Selling Thulium btw atm. Contact either me or Tal'Ra You forgot 1 tiny part here. A POS can only have 1 reactor, since you need silo¦s too. So without a simple reaction everything you mine is useless garbage. Since you gonna need a whole extra POS for that. And anyone with an intensive refinery cant do it notmatter what. Why do you need to do it all at once? Heard about rotation before? Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:32:00 - [74] Originally by: Shintai Edited by: Shintai on 23/12/2004 12:30:41 Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 23/12/2004 12:24:08 Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? Phase 1. Get POS, 0.0 system with high end ores and an intensive refinery or 2. Phase 2. ? Phase 3. Profit. Now this is the important part. All us deep space corps maintaining a profitable station are also producing moon minerals! And we've got no use for them! So guess what you compounds reactor folks get from the people you're trying to remove from this thread?. Seriously you need to see that the deep space refinery POS's will not want to move their moon mins all the way up to empire so find someone selling moon mins, I think you'll find they are uber cheap from them. Selling Thulium btw atm. Contact either me or Tal'Ra You forgot 1 tiny part here. A POS can only have 1 reactor, since you need silo¦s too. So without a simple reaction everything you mine is useless garbage. Since you gonna need a whole extra POS for that. And anyone with an intensive refinery cant do it notmatter what. Why do you need to do it all at once? Heard about rotation before? Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:33:00 - [75] Originally by: Shintai Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 23/12/2004 12:24:08 Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? Phase 1. Get POS, 0.0 system with high end ores and an intensive refinery or 2. Phase 2. ? Phase 3. Profit. Now this is the important part. All us deep space corps maintaining a profitable station are also producing moon minerals! And we've got no use for them! So guess what you compounds reactor folks get from the people you're trying to remove from this thread?. Seriously you need to see that the deep space refinery POS's will not want to move their moon mins all the way up to empire so find someone selling moon mins, I think you'll find they are uber cheap from them. Selling Thulium btw atm. Contact either me or Tal'Ra You forgot 1 tiny part here. A POS can only only have 1 reactor, since you need silo¦s too. So without a simple reaction everything you mine is useless garbage. Since you gonna need a whole extra POS for that. That's right. So our POS is at the bottom of the food chain. You'll find lots of refinery POS's out there in the same position as ours with moon minerals being churned out with nowhere to go. The trick is to set up your own pos and get the moon minerals from the bottom end refineries to do simple reactions. Then you sell your stuff further on. Whether the cost of the moon mins and the price you charge for simple reaction products means you make a profit depends on who you sell your simple reactions too. But I know that our POS would probably release our moon mins for a spot of POS fuel.
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:33:00 - [76] Originally by: Shintai Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 23/12/2004 12:24:08 Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? Phase 1. Get POS, 0.0 system with high end ores and an intensive refinery or 2. Phase 2. ? Phase 3. Profit. Now this is the important part. All us deep space corps maintaining a profitable station are also producing moon minerals! And we've got no use for them! So guess what you compounds reactor folks get from the people you're trying to remove from this thread?. Seriously you need to see that the deep space refinery POS's will not want to move their moon mins all the way up to empire so find someone selling moon mins, I think you'll find they are uber cheap from them. Selling Thulium btw atm. Contact either me or Tal'Ra You forgot 1 tiny part here. A POS can only only have 1 reactor, since you need silo¦s too. So without a simple reaction everything you mine is useless garbage. Since you gonna need a whole extra POS for that. That's right. So our POS is at the bottom of the food chain. You'll find lots of refinery POS's out there in the same position as ours with moon minerals being churned out with nowhere to go. The trick is to set up your own pos and get the moon minerals from the bottom end refineries to do simple reactions. Then you sell your stuff further on. Whether the cost of the moon mins and the price you charge for simple reaction products means you make a profit depends on who you sell your simple reactions too. But I know that our POS would probably release our moon mins for a spot of POS fuel.
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:36:00 - [77] Originally by: Inzidious Get rid of the insane amounts of T2 components being handed out like candy by agents, and we might have a booming buiseness. This will crush the T2 industry at first, but POS owners will soon see the potential market, and make an effort to make it work. Again, I completely agree but we've got to be careful that the final cost of tech2 components from POS's to the end user aren't more than now otherwise the whole thing will just become inflation city for the people buying tech2 comps. Also there won't be that many producers of any particular tech2 component so there's a serious danger of a monopoly. Even with all the tech2 components being flooded onto the market by agent runners, the cost is still many times over the refine value.
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:36:00 - [78] Originally by: Inzidious Get rid of the insane amounts of T2 components being handed out like candy by agents, and we might have a booming buiseness. This will crush the T2 industry at first, but POS owners will soon see the potential market, and make an effort to make it work. Again, I completely agree but we've got to be careful that the final cost of tech2 components from POS's to the end user aren't more than now otherwise the whole thing will just become inflation city for the people buying tech2 comps. Also there won't be that many producers of any particular tech2 component so there's a serious danger of a monopoly. Even with all the tech2 components being flooded onto the market by agent runners, the cost is still many times over the refine value.
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:37:00 - [79] Tas Devil, your information is poor and your attitude leaves a lot to be desired. Instead of asking for instructions on a plate, maybe you should spend more time looking into methods of making them profitable yourself. At a guess, it will involve cooperation with humans at some point. So if I were you I'd drop the 'tell me or you're a liar' approach. .
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:37:00 - [80] Tas Devil, your information is poor and your attitude leaves a lot to be desired. Instead of asking for instructions on a plate, maybe you should spend more time looking into methods of making them profitable yourself. At a guess, it will involve cooperation with humans at some point. So if I were you I'd drop the 'tell me or you're a liar' approach. .
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:37:00 - [81] Originally by: Kerosene That's right. So our POS is at the bottom of the food chain. You'll find lots of refinery POS's out there in the same position as ours with moon minerals being churned out with nowhere to go. The trick is to set up your own pos and get the moon minerals from the bottom end refineries to do simple reactions. Then you sell your stuff further on. Whether the cost of the moon mins and the price you charge for simple reaction products means you make a profit depends on who you sell your simple reactions too. But I know that our POS would probably release our moon mins for a spot of POS fuel. Finally someone who gets it ;-) Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:37:00 - [82] Originally by: Kerosene That's right. So our POS is at the bottom of the food chain. You'll find lots of refinery POS's out there in the same position as ours with moon minerals being churned out with nowhere to go. The trick is to set up your own pos and get the moon minerals from the bottom end refineries to do simple reactions. Then you sell your stuff further on. Whether the cost of the moon mins and the price you charge for simple reaction products means you make a profit depends on who you sell your simple reactions too. But I know that our POS would probably release our moon mins for a spot of POS fuel. Finally someone who gets it ;-) Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Slithereen	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:39:00 - [83] Mission runners has nothing to do with it. The cost of T2 components made by the POS will always be reflected by the cost of running the POS itself. If it costs too much to run a POS, the T2 components will reflect likewise, independent of agent runners. The bottomline---for the good of the entire EVE community---is not to make POS owners rich, but to proliferate T2 technology and bring them down to lower, more reasonable prices. We need to bring down the costs of POS operation down, period. Bring the operating costs of POS down, there will be more POS. This will increase the supply of T2 components, and T2 ship and item prices will go down as well. And once T2 items and ships go down, there will be much more widespread adoption. It all works in a loop. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Slithereen	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:39:00 - [84] Mission runners has nothing to do with it. The cost of T2 components made by the POS will always be reflected by the cost of running the POS itself. If it costs too much to run a POS, the T2 components will reflect likewise, independent of agent runners. The bottomline---for the good of the entire EVE community---is not to make POS owners rich, but to proliferate T2 technology and bring them down to lower, more reasonable prices. We need to bring down the costs of POS operation down, period. Bring the operating costs of POS down, there will be more POS. This will increase the supply of T2 components, and T2 ship and item prices will go down as well. And once T2 items and ships go down, there will be much more widespread adoption. It all works in a loop. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Shintai	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:41:00 - [85] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Originally by: Shintai Edited by: Shintai on 23/12/2004 12:30:41 Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 23/12/2004 12:24:08 Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? Phase 1. Get POS, 0.0 system with high end ores and an intensive refinery or 2. Phase 2. ? Phase 3. Profit. Now this is the important part. All us deep space corps maintaining a profitable station are also producing moon minerals! And we've got no use for them! So guess what you compounds reactor folks get from the people you're trying to remove from this thread?. Seriously you need to see that the deep space refinery POS's will not want to move their moon mins all the way up to empire so find someone selling moon mins, I think you'll find they are uber cheap from them. Selling Thulium btw atm. Contact either me or Tal'Ra You forgot 1 tiny part here. A POS can only have 1 reactor, since you need silo¦s too. So without a simple reaction everything you mine is useless garbage. Since you gonna need a whole extra POS for that. And anyone with an intensive refinery cant do it notmatter what. Why do you need to do it all at once? Heard about rotation before? Tell me the reaction cycle for simple and complex reactions. And I think you change your mind about this. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Shintai	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:41:00 - [86] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Originally by: Shintai Edited by: Shintai on 23/12/2004 12:30:41 Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 23/12/2004 12:24:08 Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? Phase 1. Get POS, 0.0 system with high end ores and an intensive refinery or 2. Phase 2. ? Phase 3. Profit. Now this is the important part. All us deep space corps maintaining a profitable station are also producing moon minerals! And we've got no use for them! So guess what you compounds reactor folks get from the people you're trying to remove from this thread?. Seriously you need to see that the deep space refinery POS's will not want to move their moon mins all the way up to empire so find someone selling moon mins, I think you'll find they are uber cheap from them. Selling Thulium btw atm. Contact either me or Tal'Ra You forgot 1 tiny part here. A POS can only have 1 reactor, since you need silo¦s too. So without a simple reaction everything you mine is useless garbage. Since you gonna need a whole extra POS for that. And anyone with an intensive refinery cant do it notmatter what. Why do you need to do it all at once? Heard about rotation before? Tell me the reaction cycle for simple and complex reactions. And I think you change your mind about this. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Tas Devil	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:42:00 - [87] Did it occur to you that there is a much simpler way to make tech 2 components given the fact agents drop such components so easily ? Rather then bother with all the tech 2 components food chain that you claim is in its infancy and doing baby steps... large agent drops of tech 2 components means empire dwellers are now refining these for the advanced materials they contain...with a 100% efficiency too...all you need to do then is stick the advanced materials right back in with the proper BPO for tech 2 goods...and you have yourself whatever tech 2 components you need...using agent drops as the fuel to your little business... Now if you tell me this is not going to undermine POS... and the whole economic viability of the tech 2 component food chain .... to me agent drops is not a necessary evil to lower cost of tech 2 components... its intervention at its worst form ...without having given any thought to the consequences...
Tas Devil	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:42:00 - [88] Did it occur to you that there is a much simpler way to make tech 2 components given the fact agents drop such components so easily ? Rather then bother with all the tech 2 components food chain that you claim is in its infancy and doing baby steps... large agent drops of tech 2 components means empire dwellers are now refining these for the advanced materials they contain...with a 100% efficiency too...all you need to do then is stick the advanced materials right back in with the proper BPO for tech 2 goods...and you have yourself whatever tech 2 components you need...using agent drops as the fuel to your little business... Now if you tell me this is not going to undermine POS... and the whole economic viability of the tech 2 component food chain .... to me agent drops is not a necessary evil to lower cost of tech 2 components... its intervention at its worst form ...without having given any thought to the consequences...
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:44:00 - [89] Originally by: Kerosene Again, I completely agree but we've got to be careful that the final cost of tech2 components from POS's to the end user aren't more than now otherwise the whole thing will just become inflation city for the people buying tech2 comps. Also there won't be that many producers of any particular tech2 component so there's a serious danger of a monopoly. Even with all the tech2 components being flooded onto the market by agent runners, the cost is still many times over the refine value. I know a lot of people who are sitting on mountains of t2 comps just waiting for prices to go up, not down. People who want to do the production process of t2 comps through a POS need to realize that todays prices isn't realistic at all. Reactors for 200k+, microprocessors for 70k? Forget that. How many buy orders out there do you think gobble up drops from agent runners daily, that are sold back to producers in whole packages? TONS, it help keep prices high. Many agent runners just sell to best buy orders to make the ISK there and then rather than put up sell orders. I shift millions worth of components daily, do I make a nice profit? YES, would a decrease in prices make my revenues go down? Not likely. WHY? Because lower the prices, up's the demand and you can still maintain a good revenue because of it. A big problem is the greed of the players and their willingness to change the system as well. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:44:00 - [90] Originally by: Kerosene Again, I completely agree but we've got to be careful that the final cost of tech2 components from POS's to the end user aren't more than now otherwise the whole thing will just become inflation city for the people buying tech2 comps. Also there won't be that many producers of any particular tech2 component so there's a serious danger of a monopoly. Even with all the tech2 components being flooded onto the market by agent runners, the cost is still many times over the refine value. I know a lot of people who are sitting on mountains of t2 comps just waiting for prices to go up, not down. People who want to do the production process of t2 comps through a POS need to realize that todays prices isn't realistic at all. Reactors for 200k+, microprocessors for 70k? Forget that. How many buy orders out there do you think gobble up drops from agent runners daily, that are sold back to producers in whole packages? TONS, it help keep prices high. Many agent runners just sell to best buy orders to make the ISK there and then rather than put up sell orders. I shift millions worth of components daily, do I make a nice profit? YES, would a decrease in prices make my revenues go down? Not likely. WHY? Because lower the prices, up's the demand and you can still maintain a good revenue because of it. A big problem is the greed of the players and their willingness to change the system as well. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:50:00 - [91] Originally by: Tas Devil Did it occur to you that there is a much simpler way to make tech 2 components given the fact agents drop such components so easily ? Rather then bother with all the tech 2 components food chain that you claim is in its infancy and doing baby steps... large agent drops of tech 2 components means empire dwellers are now refining these for the advanced materials they contain...with a 100% efficiency too...all you need to do then is stick the advanced materials right back in with the proper BPO for tech 2 goods...and you have yourself whatever tech 2 components you need...using agent drops as the fuel to your little business... Now if you tell me this is not going to undermine POS... and the whole economic viability of the tech 2 component food chain .... to me agent drops is not a necessary evil to lower cost of tech 2 components... its intervention at its worst form ...without having given any thought to the consequences... Oh such a simpleton :p Its not that easy, if it had, everyone would be doing it. There is key components (advanced materials) that is used common in spesific componets. Like Ferrogel and Fermionic Condensates. It makes little sense in recycle one type of reactors to make another type of reactor when you also need to recycle a 2nd type of component to make up the required materials needed to make 1 unit. I see people are doing this but what it does is bump the prices on certain components across of the factions, pumping prices up overall on all t2 components. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:50:00 - [92] Originally by: Tas Devil Did it occur to you that there is a much simpler way to make tech 2 components given the fact agents drop such components so easily ? Rather then bother with all the tech 2 components food chain that you claim is in its infancy and doing baby steps... large agent drops of tech 2 components means empire dwellers are now refining these for the advanced materials they contain...with a 100% efficiency too...all you need to do then is stick the advanced materials right back in with the proper BPO for tech 2 goods...and you have yourself whatever tech 2 components you need...using agent drops as the fuel to your little business... Now if you tell me this is not going to undermine POS... and the whole economic viability of the tech 2 component food chain .... to me agent drops is not a necessary evil to lower cost of tech 2 components... its intervention at its worst form ...without having given any thought to the consequences... Oh such a simpleton :p Its not that easy, if it had, everyone would be doing it. There is key components (advanced materials) that is used common in spesific componets. Like Ferrogel and Fermionic Condensates. It makes little sense in recycle one type of reactors to make another type of reactor when you also need to recycle a 2nd type of component to make up the required materials needed to make 1 unit. I see people are doing this but what it does is bump the prices on certain components across of the factions, pumping prices up overall on all t2 components. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Tas Devil	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:52:00 - [93] Do you guys read what I am saying ? I'm not saying it makes sense...I am saying it happens... and that undermines POS...and their economic viability... trust me (or don't for all I care) tech 2 components is not where the money is in eve... but I am seeing it happen in empire space and it will have an effect on POS economic viability ...
Tas Devil	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:52:00 - [94] Do you guys read what I am saying ? I'm not saying it makes sense...I am saying it happens... and that undermines POS...and their economic viability... trust me (or don't for all I care) tech 2 components is not where the money is in eve... but I am seeing it happen in empire space and it will have an effect on POS economic viability ...
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:55:00 - [95] Originally by: Tas Devil Do you guys read what I am saying ? I'm not saying it makes sense...I am saying it happens... and that undermines POS...and their economic viability... trust me (or don't for all I care) tech 2 components is not where the money is in eve... but I am seeing it happen in empire space and it will have an effect on POS economic viability ... YES, it does undermine the POS and its viability at the momment, but over time it wont the amount of surplus comps to recycle will run out and the factories will grind to a halt with prices on certain comps much higher than current prices. At least that is what I see might happen. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 12:55:00 - [96] Originally by: Tas Devil Do you guys read what I am saying ? I'm not saying it makes sense...I am saying it happens... and that undermines POS...and their economic viability... trust me (or don't for all I care) tech 2 components is not where the money is in eve... but I am seeing it happen in empire space and it will have an effect on POS economic viability ... YES, it does undermine the POS and its viability at the momment, but over time it wont the amount of surplus comps to recycle will run out and the factories will grind to a halt with prices on certain comps much higher than current prices. At least that is what I see might happen. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Siddy	Posted - 2004.12.23 13:03:00 - [97] Originally by: Lady Rona Pos defenses are fine a small corp like ours needs those defences. your corp size or it importanse dont justify a pos defenses that can take out fleet of 500 BS's -------------------------------------------
Siddy	Posted - 2004.12.23 13:03:00 - [98] Originally by: Lady Rona Pos defenses are fine a small corp like ours needs those defences. your corp size or it importanse dont justify a pos defenses that can take out fleet of 500 BS's -------------------------------------------
Andaras	Posted - 2004.12.23 13:08:00 - [99] Factories will never grind to a halt all the time agents drop T2 comps. Were just back to what we had before POS. POS will become an irrellevance for T2 comp manufacture and will be used as bases and refineries instead. Kind of makes the whole deal with T2 minerals harvesting and POS laughable really. At the rate of consumption of the POS's, it will never be profitable to use them solely for T2 comp manufacture so prices will remain as they are or drop with increased agent drops. In any case POS for T2 use is dead before it even started. The maths is perfectly clear.
Andaras	Posted - 2004.12.23 13:08:00 - [100] Factories will never grind to a halt all the time agents drop T2 comps. Were just back to what we had before POS. POS will become an irrellevance for T2 comp manufacture and will be used as bases and refineries instead. Kind of makes the whole deal with T2 minerals harvesting and POS laughable really. At the rate of consumption of the POS's, it will never be profitable to use them solely for T2 comp manufacture so prices will remain as they are or drop with increased agent drops. In any case POS for T2 use is dead before it even started. The maths is perfectly clear.
Hakera	Posted - 2004.12.23 13:23:00 - [101] POS in 0.1-0.3 are mainly there for sole T2 manufacture or as a plaything being as peopl in such space normally are surrounded by stations anyway. For a T2 production pyramid to work, it must work at its most basic level. Which means mining the four basic deposits should meet at least running costs. This is the most basic level of POS use, if a farmer POS producing 7200 units of various primary raw materials cannot meet running costs as the base of the pyramid then the rest of the pyramid will not unless the whole pyramid is ran by one entity where the other levels of production can be operated at cost with minimal margins. Yes POS should drain resources, I dont question that, the logistics involved with the volume decreases are a lot better. But the time in man hours to keep a POS operational from hauling to ice mining and the costs involved do not warrant what you get back. POS are meant to be the new funky thing that defines Exodus, if the only use for them is to act as refining arrays and ship storage for the powerblock alliances with some moon mining on the side to offset running costs against the massive profit of being located in a suitable 0.0 system, all well & good, but the majority of players who have sunk their isk into POS and quickly found it they are not worth it, great to try and to experiment with, but ultimatly, not worth the effort, isk or time. POS aimed at being purely T2 componant manufacture, must be designed to be profitable by CCP, or they will forever remain toys of the rich alliances and wealthy corps only where meeting the daily running costs is peanuts. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Hakera	Posted - 2004.12.23 13:23:00 - [102] POS in 0.1-0.3 are mainly there for sole T2 manufacture or as a plaything being as peopl in such space normally are surrounded by stations anyway. For a T2 production pyramid to work, it must work at its most basic level. Which means mining the four basic deposits should meet at least running costs. This is the most basic level of POS use, if a farmer POS producing 7200 units of various primary raw materials cannot meet running costs as the base of the pyramid then the rest of the pyramid will not unless the whole pyramid is ran by one entity where the other levels of production can be operated at cost with minimal margins. Yes POS should drain resources, I dont question that, the logistics involved with the volume decreases are a lot better. But the time in man hours to keep a POS operational from hauling to ice mining and the costs involved do not warrant what you get back. POS are meant to be the new funky thing that defines Exodus, if the only use for them is to act as refining arrays and ship storage for the powerblock alliances with some moon mining on the side to offset running costs against the massive profit of being located in a suitable 0.0 system, all well & good, but the majority of players who have sunk their isk into POS and quickly found it they are not worth it, great to try and to experiment with, but ultimatly, not worth the effort, isk or time. POS aimed at being purely T2 componant manufacture, must be designed to be profitable by CCP, or they will forever remain toys of the rich alliances and wealthy corps only where meeting the daily running costs is peanuts. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Archbishop	Posted - 2004.12.23 14:02:00 - [103] Lets look at the original purposes of the POS. 1. Provide a close in refining location for rare ores. 2. Provide moon mining for T2 construction material development. 3. Provide military bases and alliances headquarters. Now lets look at each purpose and how its working. 1. We now have intensive refineries. Problem is they're way too slow. CCP needs to "speed up" the time per refine batch. I saw one thread where a person mentioned they'd need 4-5 of these intensive refineries just to keep up with a small time mining fleet. 2. While they can produce T2 raw materials the problem is the market. Right now there is way too much T2 npc components around. I would imagine CCP will eventually "cut off" all non-player T2 component manufacturing. That means no more components and materials from agents. That means that market will be entirely player driven. Remember after beta the npc's sold everything (ships included). Now remember how they just "stopped" one day and it all became player made? Well thats what I believe CCP intends to do with T2 components and materials. 3. Right now there is no way to give non-corp members access to a stations utlities without giving them the "God" mode. This is highly irresponsible as a station could be stolen outright by a corp thief. This thread HERE talks about the maintenance hangar issue. This is fundamental to an alliance POS. Likewise I'm not sure I'd even want to give everyone in a corp the "God" mode. We've all seen corp theft problems. Would you want your 300m isk station "stolen"? Summary: As far as profitabilty with T2 (#2 above) the real issue is organization. I'm aware of a corp with over ten POS. This corp (which does not advertise this fact) is already planning to organize T2 construction once the market shifts and npc component production stops. Because they're organized (as part of an even bigger group) they'll have POS at strategic moons each mining specific materials and they'll be able to produce T2. The market once it dries up from NPC produced will stabilize and T2 components will then price "fairly". Right now most T2 components on the market are way underpriced imo. So basically we need to have a few things done here for POS to operate profitably. 1. CCP needs to end npc T2 component production. 2. CCP needs to fix the maintenance hangar issue so alliances and corps can use a POS while the owners know its secure (thus not giving God mode to all). 3. CCP needs to speed up the refine rate of the intensive refineries. 4. Player POS owners need to communicate with other POS owners and organize their stations and cooperate in mining specific things for T2 component production. Three of these fixes are CCP's, one is the players, we can only directly control one of them. Time to get organized on the one we can control. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Archbishop	Posted - 2004.12.23 14:02:00 - [104] Lets look at the original purposes of the POS. 1. Provide a close in refining location for rare ores. 2. Provide moon mining for T2 construction material development. 3. Provide military bases and alliances headquarters. Now lets look at each purpose and how its working. 1. We now have intensive refineries. Problem is they're way too slow. CCP needs to "speed up" the time per refine batch. I saw one thread where a person mentioned they'd need 4-5 of these intensive refineries just to keep up with a small time mining fleet. 2. While they can produce T2 raw materials the problem is the market. Right now there is way too much T2 npc components around. I would imagine CCP will eventually "cut off" all non-player T2 component manufacturing. That means no more components and materials from agents. That means that market will be entirely player driven. Remember after beta the npc's sold everything (ships included). Now remember how they just "stopped" one day and it all became player made? Well thats what I believe CCP intends to do with T2 components and materials. 3. Right now there is no way to give non-corp members access to a stations utlities without giving them the "God" mode. This is highly irresponsible as a station could be stolen outright by a corp thief. This thread HERE talks about the maintenance hangar issue. This is fundamental to an alliance POS. Likewise I'm not sure I'd even want to give everyone in a corp the "God" mode. We've all seen corp theft problems. Would you want your 300m isk station "stolen"? Summary: As far as profitabilty with T2 (#2 above) the real issue is organization. I'm aware of a corp with over ten POS. This corp (which does not advertise this fact) is already planning to organize T2 construction once the market shifts and npc component production stops. Because they're organized (as part of an even bigger group) they'll have POS at strategic moons each mining specific materials and they'll be able to produce T2. The market once it dries up from NPC produced will stabilize and T2 components will then price "fairly". Right now most T2 components on the market are way underpriced imo. So basically we need to have a few things done here for POS to operate profitably. 1. CCP needs to end npc T2 component production. 2. CCP needs to fix the maintenance hangar issue so alliances and corps can use a POS while the owners know its secure (thus not giving God mode to all). 3. CCP needs to speed up the refine rate of the intensive refineries. 4. Player POS owners need to communicate with other POS owners and organize their stations and cooperate in mining specific things for T2 component production. Three of these fixes are CCP's, one is the players, we can only directly control one of them. Time to get organized on the one we can control. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Arud	Posted - 2004.12.23 14:28:00 - [105] increase the starting cost while cutting the running cost down by alot, should even things out
Arud	Posted - 2004.12.23 14:28:00 - [106] increase the starting cost while cutting the running cost down by alot, should even things out
Arud	Posted - 2004.12.23 14:29:00 - [107] increase the starting cost while cutting the running cost down by alot, should even things out
Arud	Posted - 2004.12.23 14:29:00 - [108] increase the starting cost while cutting the running cost down by alot, should even things out
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 14:37:00 - [109] Originally by: Archbishop Right now most T2 components on the market are way underpriced imo. Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh! Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 14:37:00 - [110] Originally by: Archbishop Right now most T2 components on the market are way underpriced imo. Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh! Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
SwitchBl4d3	Posted - 2004.12.23 14:40:00 - [111] i always saw POS as a base of operations like someone said before. to put one in empire space is somewhat bizarre i see them 30-40+ jumps away and run by hermits. "Teh lord of Nonni"
SwitchBl4d3	Posted - 2004.12.23 14:40:00 - [112] i always saw POS as a base of operations like someone said before. to put one in empire space is somewhat bizarre i see them 30-40+ jumps away and run by hermits. "Teh lord of Nonni"
Archbishop	Posted - 2004.12.23 15:18:00 - [113] Quote: "Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh!" Production cost and sales price are not related. Supply and Demand and what the market will pay for something are the realities. Take T2 component construction. If it goes purely player made and prices skyrocket that has no bearing on insurance payments. What an item is "worth" in raw form parts has little to do with its "worth" in the market. Players can charge whatever they want for something.... it has nothing to do with insurance. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Archbishop	Posted - 2004.12.23 15:18:00 - [114] Quote: "Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh!" Production cost and sales price are not related. Supply and Demand and what the market will pay for something are the realities. Take T2 component construction. If it goes purely player made and prices skyrocket that has no bearing on insurance payments. What an item is "worth" in raw form parts has little to do with its "worth" in the market. Players can charge whatever they want for something.... it has nothing to do with insurance. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Doppleganger	Posted - 2004.12.23 15:52:00 - [115] Originally by: SwitchBl4d3 i always saw POS as a base of operations like someone said before. to put one in empire space is somewhat bizarre i see them 30-40+ jumps away and run by hermits. Yeah for some of us having the ability to claim a section of space is worth the cost of owning a pos. Looking at pos from only a t2c stand point is very limited. Granted I can look at it from a t2c stand point too and if I did, I would not own one. Pos are still new (only 1 month old) I'm giving CCP more time to think about them and tweak them via facts and info from players put in well constructed critques. After all look how long they have been working on ship/weapon balances.... did you think pos would be perfect right away? /me crawls back into his hermit hole
Doppleganger	Posted - 2004.12.23 15:52:00 - [116] Originally by: SwitchBl4d3 i always saw POS as a base of operations like someone said before. to put one in empire space is somewhat bizarre i see them 30-40+ jumps away and run by hermits. Yeah for some of us having the ability to claim a section of space is worth the cost of owning a pos. Looking at pos from only a t2c stand point is very limited. Granted I can look at it from a t2c stand point too and if I did, I would not own one. Pos are still new (only 1 month old) I'm giving CCP more time to think about them and tweak them via facts and info from players put in well constructed critques. After all look how long they have been working on ship/weapon balances.... did you think pos would be perfect right away? /me crawls back into his hermit hole
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 15:56:00 - [117] Originally by: Archbishop Quote: "Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh!" Production cost and sales price are not related. Supply and Demand and what the market will pay for something are the realities. Take T2 component construction. If it goes purely player made and prices skyrocket that has no bearing on insurance payments. What an item is "worth" in raw form parts has little to do with its "worth" in the market. Players can charge whatever they want for something.... it has nothing to do with insurance. Archbishop Intention with POS's was to make tech2 comps cheaper, not introduce ISK printing machines. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2004.12.23 15:56:00 - [118] Originally by: Archbishop Quote: "Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh!" Production cost and sales price are not related. Supply and Demand and what the market will pay for something are the realities. Take T2 component construction. If it goes purely player made and prices skyrocket that has no bearing on insurance payments. What an item is "worth" in raw form parts has little to do with its "worth" in the market. Players can charge whatever they want for something.... it has nothing to do with insurance. Archbishop Intention with POS's was to make tech2 comps cheaper, not introduce ISK printing machines. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Cool dude	Posted - 2004.12.23 16:05:00 - [119] Quote: Intention with POS's was to make tech2 comps cheaper, not introduce ISK printing machines. I am not expecting to make billions from production, but it is silly to run them when they are costing money
Cool dude	Posted - 2004.12.23 16:05:00 - [120] Quote: Intention with POS's was to make tech2 comps cheaper, not introduce ISK printing machines. I am not expecting to make billions from production, but it is silly to run them when they are costing money
Hakera	Posted - 2004.12.23 16:22:00 - [121] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh! never base the value of items on CCP values, their base values come straight out of a dev;'s head and are not related to true value in the game version of simplified insurance. IMO T2 is not overpriced for what you get tbh. CCP's insurance values are undervalued. If the reverse was the case, they would increase supply (which they have not done until recently) as agents now drop T2 componants by the truckload further depressing any viable market for player produced T2. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Hakera	Posted - 2004.12.23 16:22:00 - [122] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Sure, thats why production costs(sales price) of t2 ships reflect the insurance on them so good, duh! never base the value of items on CCP values, their base values come straight out of a dev;'s head and are not related to true value in the game version of simplified insurance. IMO T2 is not overpriced for what you get tbh. CCP's insurance values are undervalued. If the reverse was the case, they would increase supply (which they have not done until recently) as agents now drop T2 componants by the truckload further depressing any viable market for player produced T2. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
FZappa	Posted - 2004.12.23 16:33:00 - [123] "mine your ice , then it costs nothing" err ? i wouldnt call the time spent mining ice as nothing. i could be doing other things alot less mind numbing that will in the end get me the more then the amount of isk id make in a week running POS . POS are for big corps , not for solo or even a small corp. you need a crew that will mine the ice , and haulers to move the stuff . and in the end , if the corp members dont get bored out of their teeth from this repeating boring work and rebel , you might even make a small insignificant amount of isk :) which you paid for with countless man hours. YaY for POS -------------------------
FZappa	Posted - 2004.12.23 16:33:00 - [124] "mine your ice , then it costs nothing" err ? i wouldnt call the time spent mining ice as nothing. i could be doing other things alot less mind numbing that will in the end get me the more then the amount of isk id make in a week running POS . POS are for big corps , not for solo or even a small corp. you need a crew that will mine the ice , and haulers to move the stuff . and in the end , if the corp members dont get bored out of their teeth from this repeating boring work and rebel , you might even make a small insignificant amount of isk :) which you paid for with countless man hours. YaY for POS -------------------------
Crayathan	Posted - 2004.12.23 16:56:00 - [125] One thing ccp have failed to take into account is that even though tech 2 comps might drop in price, it doesn't mean that tech 2 builders will drop their prices. STOP AGENT'S DROPPING COMPS message ends Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil
Crayathan	Posted - 2004.12.23 16:56:00 - [126] One thing ccp have failed to take into account is that even though tech 2 comps might drop in price, it doesn't mean that tech 2 builders will drop their prices. STOP AGENT'S DROPPING COMPS message ends Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 17:24:00 - [127] Originally by: Crayathan One thing ccp have failed to take into account is that even though tech 2 comps might drop in price, it doesn't mean that tech 2 builders will drop their prices. STOP AGENT'S DROPPING COMPS message ends quite true I very much dout cap recharger II have any thing to do with the product cost
voidvim	Posted - 2004.12.23 17:24:00 - [128] Originally by: Crayathan One thing ccp have failed to take into account is that even though tech 2 comps might drop in price, it doesn't mean that tech 2 builders will drop their prices. STOP AGENT'S DROPPING COMPS message ends quite true I very much dout cap recharger II have any thing to do with the product cost
Kar Harkuna	Posted - 2004.12.23 18:33:00 - [129] People have only just started getting into large barges. Mine your own ice 1 person mining in a retriever can in 1 hour keep a POS running for 8 yes 8 hours so you have a few people doing it it really really takes nothing and that's the medium barge so no astro V barge V etc. The rest of the components will cost max 1 mill per day that is if you don't have the brains to ask your agent runners to move to corps that drop coolant/mechanical parts/robotics its fairly easy to find them. Finally if you really really need a hint ever remember targetting convoys? Honestly some people want it handed to them on a plate. It should cost you no more than 1 mill per day to run a POS if you mine your own ice - true more if you don't but thats what treaties are for. As for making a profit I would say it isn't going to happen for a long long time but it does give you a nice base of operations for storing ammo/sharing rat loot etc etc They can be easily run by small corps it just takes a bit of organisation but then CCP said that didn't they.
Kar Harkuna	Posted - 2004.12.23 18:33:00 - [130] People have only just started getting into large barges. Mine your own ice 1 person mining in a retriever can in 1 hour keep a POS running for 8 yes 8 hours so you have a few people doing it it really really takes nothing and that's the medium barge so no astro V barge V etc. The rest of the components will cost max 1 mill per day that is if you don't have the brains to ask your agent runners to move to corps that drop coolant/mechanical parts/robotics its fairly easy to find them. Finally if you really really need a hint ever remember targetting convoys? Honestly some people want it handed to them on a plate. It should cost you no more than 1 mill per day to run a POS if you mine your own ice - true more if you don't but thats what treaties are for. As for making a profit I would say it isn't going to happen for a long long time but it does give you a nice base of operations for storing ammo/sharing rat loot etc etc They can be easily run by small corps it just takes a bit of organisation but then CCP said that didn't they.
Shintai	Posted - 2004.12.23 23:04:00 - [131] Here is a POS chain example on armour plates and how much a loss they are. http://mafia.moof.dk/eve/pos.html Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Shintai	Posted - 2004.12.23 23:04:00 - [132] Here is a POS chain example on armour plates and how much a loss they are. http://mafia.moof.dk/eve/pos.html Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2004.12.24 00:31:00 - [133] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 24/12/2004 00:33:14 Guys, due all respect. Its not about tech2 getting ANY cheaper. Components are not the reason for insane prices, agent drops, mission rewards.... Until current situation with tech2 BPO wont change its all pointless. While so FEW hold UNLIMITED tech2 bpo and hold them forever market will never work. The more tech2 components your POS produce the more market price on the component will fall, but tech2 producers WONT drop the prices on ships and gear no matter what because of their bpo monopoly. So ask not what your POS can do for EVE, but what EVE POS can do for you. I think its a remote, well defeneded 0.0 corp base to refine old good bistot on site and whatarenot and hopefully an ammo production line in near future.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2004.12.24 00:31:00 - [134] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 24/12/2004 00:33:14 Guys, due all respect. Its not about tech2 getting ANY cheaper. Components are not the reason for insane prices, agent drops, mission rewards.... Until current situation with tech2 BPO wont change its all pointless. While so FEW hold UNLIMITED tech2 bpo and hold them forever market will never work. The more tech2 components your POS produce the more market price on the component will fall, but tech2 producers WONT drop the prices on ships and gear no matter what because of their bpo monopoly. So ask not what your POS can do for EVE, but what EVE POS can do for you. I think its a remote, well defeneded 0.0 corp base to refine old good bistot on site and whatarenot and hopefully an ammo production line in near future.
Tas Devil	Posted - 2004.12.24 03:25:00 - [135] one word chaps :( scary..... its a game ou hear not the real life....no one wants to feel as if they had to WORK in this game to achieve anything of significance...if you feel that way you are just plain sad and need a real life activity you hear ....making things difficult is one thing...requiring difficult or somehow complex player interaction is still ok....but te level of complexity discussed and the organisational skills involved + the time commitment to the game is just insane...get a LIFE ....none of you actually live out there in space you hear
Tas Devil	Posted - 2004.12.24 03:25:00 - [136] one word chaps :( scary..... its a game ou hear not the real life....no one wants to feel as if they had to WORK in this game to achieve anything of significance...if you feel that way you are just plain sad and need a real life activity you hear ....making things difficult is one thing...requiring difficult or somehow complex player interaction is still ok....but te level of complexity discussed and the organisational skills involved + the time commitment to the game is just insane...get a LIFE ....none of you actually live out there in space you hear
Sorja	Posted - 2004.12.24 04:39:00 - [137] Yes, scary indeed. Many were truly excited about the POS stuff, seeing them as a 'home sweet home', a place to gather, research, produce, mine or whatnot. What a disappointment I quite understand POS were not meant as a 'housing system' to name it after what exists in other games. But it should be something players are looking forward to. Have to work for it ? Fair enough. But read all this bitterness and understand most players (that's the majority of Eve's population) have even forgotten POS do exist and are not interested in the feature anymore. What a waste
Sorja	Posted - 2004.12.24 04:39:00 - [138] Yes, scary indeed. Many were truly excited about the POS stuff, seeing them as a 'home sweet home', a place to gather, research, produce, mine or whatnot. What a disappointment I quite understand POS were not meant as a 'housing system' to name it after what exists in other games. But it should be something players are looking forward to. Have to work for it ? Fair enough. But read all this bitterness and understand most players (that's the majority of Eve's population) have even forgotten POS do exist and are not interested in the feature anymore. What a waste
FZappa	Posted - 2004.12.24 12:06:00 - [139] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Until current situation with tech2 BPO wont change its all pointless. While so FEW hold UNLIMITED tech2 bpo and hold them forever market will never work. The more tech2 components your POS produce the more market price on the component will fall, but tech2 producers WONT drop the prices on ships and gear no matter what because of their bpo monopoly. t2 bpos have utterly nothing to do with the POS situation atm . you are only considering cartel-ed items and ships. i can tell you that i strictly refused being part of the pdu2 cartel , and as result theres a constant price war going for these items . there are enough bpos to keep competition going , unless a group of related people get hold of too many bpos and YOU are willing to pay their prices . ive never bought a single t2 cap recharger , how about you ? building a deimos costs me X isk right now , i want to make a nice profit per ship . now if POS were working properly it'd cost me 0.5X to build , and believe me if id try to grab too much profit someone else will come along who will undercut my prices. -------------------------
FZappa	Posted - 2004.12.24 12:06:00 - [140] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Until current situation with tech2 BPO wont change its all pointless. While so FEW hold UNLIMITED tech2 bpo and hold them forever market will never work. The more tech2 components your POS produce the more market price on the component will fall, but tech2 producers WONT drop the prices on ships and gear no matter what because of their bpo monopoly. t2 bpos have utterly nothing to do with the POS situation atm . you are only considering cartel-ed items and ships. i can tell you that i strictly refused being part of the pdu2 cartel , and as result theres a constant price war going for these items . there are enough bpos to keep competition going , unless a group of related people get hold of too many bpos and YOU are willing to pay their prices . ive never bought a single t2 cap recharger , how about you ? building a deimos costs me X isk right now , i want to make a nice profit per ship . now if POS were working properly it'd cost me 0.5X to build , and believe me if id try to grab too much profit someone else will come along who will undercut my prices. -------------------------
Sakura Yoshida	Posted - 2004.12.24 17:09:00 - [141] if anyone wants to get rid of a POS for real cheap, tell me in-game, i'd love to take it off of your hands ^^ of course, with me running it, it'd constantly be on fire or something...
Sakura Yoshida	Posted - 2004.12.24 17:09:00 - [142] if anyone wants to get rid of a POS for real cheap, tell me in-game, i'd love to take it off of your hands ^^ of course, with me running it, it'd constantly be on fire or something...
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2004.12.24 20:21:00 - [143] Originally by: FZappa t2 bpos have utterly nothing to do with the POS situation atm ... building a deimos costs me X isk right now , i want to make a nice profit per ship . now if POS were working properly it'd cost me 0.5X to build , and believe me if id try to grab too much profit someone else will come along who will undercut my prices... Oh yeah? Check market price on crow and claw. 8 mil difference or almoust 50%!!!! And production costs are near the same. So, somehow some people make tons of money on 1 ceptor and some sell for "decent profit" another. And you make POS production to drop tech2 component prices in half - nothing will change. Just some people with good bpo will have less expencies and more profit. And prices will stay the same. Beacause they can sell few for huge profit and no1 can produce more to feed the market to low prices. PRICES ON TECH2 STUFF ARE NOT LINKED TO LIMITED TECH2 COMPONENTS SUPPLY, but to distribution of bpos. No matter huge POS production will be cap recharger 2 wont drop in price.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2004.12.24 20:21:00 - [144] Originally by: FZappa t2 bpos have utterly nothing to do with the POS situation atm ... building a deimos costs me X isk right now , i want to make a nice profit per ship . now if POS were working properly it'd cost me 0.5X to build , and believe me if id try to grab too much profit someone else will come along who will undercut my prices... Oh yeah? Check market price on crow and claw. 8 mil difference or almoust 50%!!!! And production costs are near the same. So, somehow some people make tons of money on 1 ceptor and some sell for "decent profit" another. And you make POS production to drop tech2 component prices in half - nothing will change. Just some people with good bpo will have less expencies and more profit. And prices will stay the same. Beacause they can sell few for huge profit and no1 can produce more to feed the market to low prices. PRICES ON TECH2 STUFF ARE NOT LINKED TO LIMITED TECH2 COMPONENTS SUPPLY, but to distribution of bpos. No matter huge POS production will be cap recharger 2 wont drop in price.
kanix357	Posted - 2004.12.24 20:59:00 - [145] Edited by: kanix357 on 24/12/2004 21:03:42 Wouldnt it suck if eveyrone could own a pos and keep it operating, there would be no fun in getting a pos. This is something you have to work to get, and keep. Since when in the hell did CCP expect everyone and there mother to afford a pos.IMO you shouldnt own a pos if you cant afford it period, dont ask ccp to cut down costs because you are to lazy or dont have enough members to support it man. The pos would be perfect for running mining operations, If you have a large enough corp. There are alot of belts with high ends 10 + jumps from a station, and the time you would save would definetly come out on top vs the cost of a pos. Dont cry like a little bich, Im sick of hearing you *** at CCP. CCP has done a beautifull job making this game, and updating this game. They have given us something that is very enjoyable. You sound like a whiney little kid that wants his candy. Dude grow up, get a corp built that can afford a pos, recruit some more people, go mine a bit more. Do some trading. You need to understand that CCP didnt create POS for everyone and there mother to own. CCP shoudl start a whiners forum. When TITANS come out, i hope you dont expect ccp to setit up so eveyrone can own one lol. I Am dissapointed and sick at your whining and ***ing about something you cant afford in the game. You are doing a POS for all the wrong reasons man.
kanix357	Posted - 2004.12.24 20:59:00 - [146] Edited by: kanix357 on 24/12/2004 21:03:42 Wouldnt it suck if eveyrone could own a pos and keep it operating, there would be no fun in getting a pos. This is something you have to work to get, and keep. Since when in the hell did CCP expect everyone and there mother to afford a pos.IMO you shouldnt own a pos if you cant afford it period, dont ask ccp to cut down costs because you are to lazy or dont have enough members to support it man. The pos would be perfect for running mining operations, If you have a large enough corp. There are alot of belts with high ends 10 + jumps from a station, and the time you would save would definetly come out on top vs the cost of a pos. Dont cry like a little bich, Im sick of hearing you *** at CCP. CCP has done a beautifull job making this game, and updating this game. They have given us something that is very enjoyable. You sound like a whiney little kid that wants his candy. Dude grow up, get a corp built that can afford a pos, recruit some more people, go mine a bit more. Do some trading. You need to understand that CCP didnt create POS for everyone and there mother to own. CCP shoudl start a whiners forum. When TITANS come out, i hope you dont expect ccp to setit up so eveyrone can own one lol. I Am dissapointed and sick at your whining and ***ing about something you cant afford in the game. You are doing a POS for all the wrong reasons man.
slip66	Posted - 2004.12.24 21:06:00 - [147] i think its good they cost so much there is to much isk in the game atm.
slip66	Posted - 2004.12.24 21:06:00 - [148] i think its good they cost so much there is to much isk in the game atm.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2004.12.24 21:23:00 - [149] Originally by: kanix357 Edited by: kanix357 on 24/12/2004 21:03:42 Wouldnt it suck if eveyrone could own a pos and keep it operating, there would be no fun in getting a pos. This is something you have to work to get, and keep. Since when in the hell did CCP expect everyone and there mother to afford a pos.IMO you shouldnt own a pos if you cant afford it period, dont ask ccp to cut down costs because you are to lazy or dont have enough members to support it man. The pos would be perfect for running mining operations, If you have a large enough corp. There are alot of belts with high ends 10 + jumps from a station, and the time you would save would definetly come out on top vs the cost of a pos. Dont cry like a little bich, Im sick of hearing you *** at CCP. CCP has done a beautifull job making this game, and updating this game. They have given us something that is very enjoyable. You sound like a whiney little kid that wants his candy. Dude grow up, get a corp built that can afford a pos, recruit some more people, go mine a bit more. Do some trading. You need to understand that CCP didnt create POS for everyone and there mother to own. CCP shoudl start a whiners forum. When TITANS come out, i hope you dont expect ccp to setit up so eveyrone can own one lol. I Am dissapointed and sick at your whining and ***ing about something you cant afford in the game. You are doing a POS for all the wrong reasons man. Its not that POSs cost too much. Its that they don't make money. In fact, there is no way to make money building tech 2 comps with a POS. Meaning that the entire primary purpose of POSs is now bunk. I don't object to paying 1 billion for a POS. I do object to paying 50 million a week to keep it running while only getting half that in profit, at most. Whats the point of building a POS if all it does is lose me money? -- The best description of alliances, ever:
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2004.12.24 21:23:00 - [150] Originally by: kanix357 Edited by: kanix357 on 24/12/2004 21:03:42 Wouldnt it suck if eveyrone could own a pos and keep it operating, there would be no fun in getting a pos. This is something you have to work to get, and keep. Since when in the hell did CCP expect everyone and there mother to afford a pos.IMO you shouldnt own a pos if you cant afford it period, dont ask ccp to cut down costs because you are to lazy or dont have enough members to support it man. The pos would be perfect for running mining operations, If you have a large enough corp. There are alot of belts with high ends 10 + jumps from a station, and the time you would save would definetly come out on top vs the cost of a pos. Dont cry like a little bich, Im sick of hearing you *** at CCP. CCP has done a beautifull job making this game, and updating this game. They have given us something that is very enjoyable. You sound like a whiney little kid that wants his candy. Dude grow up, get a corp built that can afford a pos, recruit some more people, go mine a bit more. Do some trading. You need to understand that CCP didnt create POS for everyone and there mother to own. CCP shoudl start a whiners forum. When TITANS come out, i hope you dont expect ccp to setit up so eveyrone can own one lol. I Am dissapointed and sick at your whining and ***ing about something you cant afford in the game. You are doing a POS for all the wrong reasons man. Its not that POSs cost too much. Its that they don't make money. In fact, there is no way to make money building tech 2 comps with a POS. Meaning that the entire primary purpose of POSs is now bunk. I don't object to paying 1 billion for a POS. I do object to paying 50 million a week to keep it running while only getting half that in profit, at most. Whats the point of building a POS if all it does is lose me money? -- The best description of alliances, ever:
Baniya	Posted - 2004.12.24 22:24:00 - [151] Folks, I don't know your problem. An friend of me is running 3 POS atm. He harvests rar Raw Material and ahte he can't harvest him selfe, he buys from other harvesters. On this ways he just started to produce about 1600 Fermionic Condensats a day. I let you do the calculation to tell me if 1600 Fermionic Condensats a days is running 3 POS (btw to buy what he dont harvests he needs 20k per fermionic condensat, that will make it more easy for you to calculate) Tell me what your calculater tells you
Baniya	Posted - 2004.12.24 22:24:00 - [152] Folks, I don't know your problem. An friend of me is running 3 POS atm. He harvests rar Raw Material and ahte he can't harvest him selfe, he buys from other harvesters. On this ways he just started to produce about 1600 Fermionic Condensats a day. I let you do the calculation to tell me if 1600 Fermionic Condensats a days is running 3 POS (btw to buy what he dont harvests he needs 20k per fermionic condensat, that will make it more easy for you to calculate) Tell me what your calculater tells you
Archbishop	Posted - 2004.12.25 00:08:00 - [153] Quote: "And you make POS production to drop tech2 component prices in half - nothing will change. Just some people with good bpo will have less expencies and more profit. And prices will stay the same." If what I predict is true and CCP eventually stops all npc T2 component production the T2 components will be made only by POS owners. They will INCREASE in price because it'll be supply and demand. POS owners will be able to charge what they want for the materials their refineries make. So the T2 bpo situation is another animal entirely. I think what you will see happen is large POS "cartels" form where they band together, knowing what each produces, to combine into specific T2 component raw materials. They'll be come organized. Then the "POS Cartel" can sell to the "T2 BPO Cartel". So prices will probably go up a little bit. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Archbishop	Posted - 2004.12.25 00:08:00 - [154] Quote: "And you make POS production to drop tech2 component prices in half - nothing will change. Just some people with good bpo will have less expencies and more profit. And prices will stay the same." If what I predict is true and CCP eventually stops all npc T2 component production the T2 components will be made only by POS owners. They will INCREASE in price because it'll be supply and demand. POS owners will be able to charge what they want for the materials their refineries make. So the T2 bpo situation is another animal entirely. I think what you will see happen is large POS "cartels" form where they band together, knowing what each produces, to combine into specific T2 component raw materials. They'll be come organized. Then the "POS Cartel" can sell to the "T2 BPO Cartel". So prices will probably go up a little bit. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Demian Sky	Posted - 2004.12.25 00:32:00 - [155] Well, first off, let me just say that I'm only in empire once every 2-3 weeks, so none of this applies to me, so there is no conflict of interest. Now, that being said, I don't see why empire moon mining POS's can't (or shouldn't) be profitable. Personally, I think POS's should be akin to any other new business with overhead. You have to make a substantial investment to start out, and you eventually start making your money back. Perhaps if the setup costs were doubled or trippled, and the cost of running the darned things were reduced substantially, mining POS's would be a feasible form of passive income... For instance, if a mining POS cost 600 mil total and you made a net profit of, say, 30 mil a week, it would take 5 months to break even. Sounds good to me (I know the little corps will be mad, but good things cost money). Personally, I don't see why POS's would have been allowed in the higher security areas in the first place if they weren't capable of being pure moon miners (that are profitable, of course). P.S. As for the obscenely egotistical post Taz made... Don't tell other people how to run their lives.
Demian Sky	Posted - 2004.12.25 00:32:00 - [156] Well, first off, let me just say that I'm only in empire once every 2-3 weeks, so none of this applies to me, so there is no conflict of interest. Now, that being said, I don't see why empire moon mining POS's can't (or shouldn't) be profitable. Personally, I think POS's should be akin to any other new business with overhead. You have to make a substantial investment to start out, and you eventually start making your money back. Perhaps if the setup costs were doubled or trippled, and the cost of running the darned things were reduced substantially, mining POS's would be a feasible form of passive income... For instance, if a mining POS cost 600 mil total and you made a net profit of, say, 30 mil a week, it would take 5 months to break even. Sounds good to me (I know the little corps will be mad, but good things cost money). Personally, I don't see why POS's would have been allowed in the higher security areas in the first place if they weren't capable of being pure moon miners (that are profitable, of course). P.S. As for the obscenely egotistical post Taz made... Don't tell other people how to run their lives.
Dragothmar	Posted - 2004.12.25 22:34:00 - [157] Having read through this topic it's quite simple to see what's happened: Everyone who thinks their POS is making money hasn't stopped to think about a little gem the business world calls 'cost of opportunity'. I'm not going to comment on the actual monetary costs here: I've done a full calculation on the exodus discussion forum - go find it. Instead I'm going to give you players who think you're earning money from your POS a clue about where you've gone wrong: Instead of mining ice for up to 20 man hours per day (figure derived from 1 med barge w 2 ice miners mining in 0.0 and waiting for refining array) to keep your POS online you could be earning around 30million ISK from ratting in that same space of time. The opportunity cost of your POS is the cost of your time minus the revenue from your POS. As soon as you count this in you will see that while certain activities in eve are more lucrative than others the opportunity cost is in sync with how much profit they potentially turn. Example: getting a T2 BPO through an agent. Great, you're earning big bucks, but you gave up a little bit of time (or a lot) on agent missions right? But at the end of the day it earns a massive profit selling copies and when you manufacture the item. Are T2 BPO's limited to huge corps? no. Does getting a T2 BPO have a constant cost in terms of time/money? No, it's entirely optional: without any work you might still get one. In short, does a T2 BPO have a high cost of opportunity? Hell no. In contrast a POS. You set it up (or 3-7 if you want to make any money at all) after having scanned hundreds of moons (which is time + money), fuel it from your own corp (again time + money), and at the end of the day it makes a profit because you're mining around it, selling the stuff it/they make and have a nice safespot(s). But here's the deal-breaker: you could have been earning FAR in excess of this profit simply by mining scordite in empire. Or even by ratting. Or even by mining in 0.0 and hauling back to empire. So what does that make the opportunity cost of a POS? Huge? Unfathomable? Astronomical? Quite frankly yes. So let's see... POS' are: limited to large corps, have a constant upkeep requirement which is not optional and, as stated above, have a bloody great stupid cost of opportunity, where 'bloody' is a technical term meaning 'very'. I'm not saying this is all wrong, I'm not even saying that perhaps POS' should be free or BBQFISHSTIX. I'm saying that the current mechanism for upkeep is poorly thought out and needs to be changed. Anyone who says they are making money are, but have not taken into account costs of opportunity and therefore have not got an economically sound argument. Please CCP, just change it. Wesside? Nah, NOOOORTHSIIIIHEEEEEED in da house!
Dragothmar	Posted - 2004.12.25 22:34:00 - [158] Having read through this topic it's quite simple to see what's happened: Everyone who thinks their POS is making money hasn't stopped to think about a little gem the business world calls 'cost of opportunity'. I'm not going to comment on the actual monetary costs here: I've done a full calculation on the exodus discussion forum - go find it. Instead I'm going to give you players who think you're earning money from your POS a clue about where you've gone wrong: Instead of mining ice for up to 20 man hours per day (figure derived from 1 med barge w 2 ice miners mining in 0.0 and waiting for refining array) to keep your POS online you could be earning around 30million ISK from ratting in that same space of time. The opportunity cost of your POS is the cost of your time minus the revenue from your POS. As soon as you count this in you will see that while certain activities in eve are more lucrative than others the opportunity cost is in sync with how much profit they potentially turn. Example: getting a T2 BPO through an agent. Great, you're earning big bucks, but you gave up a little bit of time (or a lot) on agent missions right? But at the end of the day it earns a massive profit selling copies and when you manufacture the item. Are T2 BPO's limited to huge corps? no. Does getting a T2 BPO have a constant cost in terms of time/money? No, it's entirely optional: without any work you might still get one. In short, does a T2 BPO have a high cost of opportunity? Hell no. In contrast a POS. You set it up (or 3-7 if you want to make any money at all) after having scanned hundreds of moons (which is time + money), fuel it from your own corp (again time + money), and at the end of the day it makes a profit because you're mining around it, selling the stuff it/they make and have a nice safespot(s). But here's the deal-breaker: you could have been earning FAR in excess of this profit simply by mining scordite in empire. Or even by ratting. Or even by mining in 0.0 and hauling back to empire. So what does that make the opportunity cost of a POS? Huge? Unfathomable? Astronomical? Quite frankly yes. So let's see... POS' are: limited to large corps, have a constant upkeep requirement which is not optional and, as stated above, have a bloody great stupid cost of opportunity, where 'bloody' is a technical term meaning 'very'. I'm not saying this is all wrong, I'm not even saying that perhaps POS' should be free or BBQFISHSTIX. I'm saying that the current mechanism for upkeep is poorly thought out and needs to be changed. Anyone who says they are making money are, but have not taken into account costs of opportunity and therefore have not got an economically sound argument. Please CCP, just change it. Wesside? Nah, NOOOORTHSIIIIHEEEEEED in da house!
Sokudo	Posted - 2004.12.25 23:26:00 - [159] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Originally by: FZappa t2 bpos have utterly nothing to do with the POS situation atm ... building a deimos costs me X isk right now , i want to make a nice profit per ship . now if POS were working properly it'd cost me 0.5X to build , and believe me if id try to grab too much profit someone else will come along who will undercut my prices... Oh yeah? Check market price on crow and claw. 8 mil difference or almoust 50%!!!! And production costs are near the same. So, somehow some people make tons of money on 1 ceptor and some sell for "decent profit" another. And you make POS production to drop tech2 component prices in half - nothing will change. Just some people with good bpo will have less expencies and more profit. And prices will stay the same. Beacause they can sell few for huge profit and no1 can produce more to feed the market to low prices. PRICES ON TECH2 STUFF ARE NOT LINKED TO LIMITED TECH2 COMPONENTS SUPPLY, but to distribution of bpos. No matter huge POS production will be cap recharger 2 wont drop in price. I agree... I produce T2 ships when I can afford the bits and when I can find the BPCs... I'll back up the Crow vs Raptor argument, but then there's the BPC cost factor in my prices - further complicated by inflated prices in the component and advanced material market. I bought the Graviton Reactor BPO around 30 mins after Exodus went live thinking "YAY!!! No more paying 200k per Grav-Reactor!!"... I have yet to use it. Why? Because I have yet to find any Fermionic Condensates on the market, except one lot that was asking 250k, which is too darned high to make it worthwhile, since I could buy reactors and recycle them for less... Right now, if CCP stopped the NPC drops, I'd go out of business, unless I could find a friendly corp with a steady supply of the components - I'd be stuck on T1... and I always go for low prices on items - I regularly sell in Oursulaert - mainly Inferno torpedos (currently 495 each) because I don't believe in ripping off customers. Before I started to sell in Sinq Laison, the price per Inferno was over 2k... now it's around 450, simply because of sellers like myself who believe in fair trading. If CCP drops the production quantity per torpedo back to 10, I'll raise my prices again. Of course, in this case, I'm reliant on the Zydrine supply, but I'll always give a fair price. I can see the same happening with the POS... once people work out the best way to run them and get reactors going, they'll wind up with stations that at least earn their keep nearly, if not actually make them profitable. From the sounds of things, they need to shorten the reaction times, but they sound good so far.
Sokudo	Posted - 2004.12.25 23:26:00 - [160] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Originally by: FZappa t2 bpos have utterly nothing to do with the POS situation atm ... building a deimos costs me X isk right now , i want to make a nice profit per ship . now if POS were working properly it'd cost me 0.5X to build , and believe me if id try to grab too much profit someone else will come along who will undercut my prices... Oh yeah? Check market price on crow and claw. 8 mil difference or almoust 50%!!!! And production costs are near the same. So, somehow some people make tons of money on 1 ceptor and some sell for "decent profit" another. And you make POS production to drop tech2 component prices in half - nothing will change. Just some people with good bpo will have less expencies and more profit. And prices will stay the same. Beacause they can sell few for huge profit and no1 can produce more to feed the market to low prices. PRICES ON TECH2 STUFF ARE NOT LINKED TO LIMITED TECH2 COMPONENTS SUPPLY, but to distribution of bpos. No matter huge POS production will be cap recharger 2 wont drop in price. I agree... I produce T2 ships when I can afford the bits and when I can find the BPCs... I'll back up the Crow vs Raptor argument, but then there's the BPC cost factor in my prices - further complicated by inflated prices in the component and advanced material market. I bought the Graviton Reactor BPO around 30 mins after Exodus went live thinking "YAY!!! No more paying 200k per Grav-Reactor!!"... I have yet to use it. Why? Because I have yet to find any Fermionic Condensates on the market, except one lot that was asking 250k, which is too darned high to make it worthwhile, since I could buy reactors and recycle them for less... Right now, if CCP stopped the NPC drops, I'd go out of business, unless I could find a friendly corp with a steady supply of the components - I'd be stuck on T1... and I always go for low prices on items - I regularly sell in Oursulaert - mainly Inferno torpedos (currently 495 each) because I don't believe in ripping off customers. Before I started to sell in Sinq Laison, the price per Inferno was over 2k... now it's around 450, simply because of sellers like myself who believe in fair trading. If CCP drops the production quantity per torpedo back to 10, I'll raise my prices again. Of course, in this case, I'm reliant on the Zydrine supply, but I'll always give a fair price. I can see the same happening with the POS... once people work out the best way to run them and get reactors going, they'll wind up with stations that at least earn their keep nearly, if not actually make them profitable. From the sounds of things, they need to shorten the reaction times, but they sound good so far.
hobie	Posted - 2004.12.26 01:44:00 - [161] Dragothmar, perfectly put regarding the bunch that have POS and claim a profit. As for the rest that have never had a POS but want to chime in, please collect some information before forming your opinion.
hobie	Posted - 2004.12.26 01:44:00 - [162] Dragothmar, perfectly put regarding the bunch that have POS and claim a profit. As for the rest that have never had a POS but want to chime in, please collect some information before forming your opinion.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2004.12.26 03:17:00 - [163] So picking up some of the opinions of certain enlightened individuals POS should: only be available to large corps and/or alliances be a moneysink for everything that doesn't involve Arkmining, highend NPCing and the aforementioned entities /me claps hands way to go guys!! Even more nerd elitist attitude is just what the game needs to become more popular. Mai's Idealog
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2004.12.26 03:17:00 - [164] So picking up some of the opinions of certain enlightened individuals POS should: only be available to large corps and/or alliances be a moneysink for everything that doesn't involve Arkmining, highend NPCing and the aforementioned entities /me claps hands way to go guys!! Even more nerd elitist attitude is just what the game needs to become more popular. Mai's Idealog
FZappa	Posted - 2004.12.26 06:00:00 - [165] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Oh yeah? Check market price on crow and claw. 8 mil difference or almoust 50%!!!! And production costs are near the same. So, somehow some people make tons of money on 1 ceptor and some sell for "decent profit" another. up until recently minmatar components were very cheap , due to the fact demand to these ships was alot smaller. the different between reactor units could be around 80k per unit and thats considerable. these days however , every single cheap component is grabbed and the cheap claws you see today on market will be sold for the same price as crows in a very short time. the agent runners are unable to meet with the demand . you failed to consider old priced component stocks in your assumption . -------------------------
FZappa	Posted - 2004.12.26 06:00:00 - [166] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Oh yeah? Check market price on crow and claw. 8 mil difference or almoust 50%!!!! And production costs are near the same. So, somehow some people make tons of money on 1 ceptor and some sell for "decent profit" another. up until recently minmatar components were very cheap , due to the fact demand to these ships was alot smaller. the different between reactor units could be around 80k per unit and thats considerable. these days however , every single cheap component is grabbed and the cheap claws you see today on market will be sold for the same price as crows in a very short time. the agent runners are unable to meet with the demand . you failed to consider old priced component stocks in your assumption . -------------------------
MinorFreak	Posted - 2004.12.26 12:50:00 - [167] shrug the average joe knows exactly why POS costs are ridiculous: Major corps have too much cash from milking the many exploits over the years they've operated. CCP designed this moneysink for them. Perfectly obvious CCP's mentality is just like any other mmog dev team (regardless of their over-hyped "planning dept.") patches consist of nerfs to perceived or real exploits, instead of decent additions and cleaning up of real issues. Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? it's perfectly obvious the trolling is being done by the major alliances with a stake in keeping the status quo for POS maintenance. I think they're just whipping themselves into a frenzy to justify going on a POS-killing rampage after CCP nerf maintenance costs. 1+1=2 ______________________ Best darned links ingame and out (backup)
MinorFreak	Posted - 2004.12.26 12:50:00 - [168] shrug the average joe knows exactly why POS costs are ridiculous: Major corps have too much cash from milking the many exploits over the years they've operated. CCP designed this moneysink for them. Perfectly obvious CCP's mentality is just like any other mmog dev team (regardless of their over-hyped "planning dept.") patches consist of nerfs to perceived or real exploits, instead of decent additions and cleaning up of real issues. Originally by: Tas Devil It would indeed be nice if those that claim to be making 'tonnes' of isk from their POS had the maturity to share some of their calculations and results ... it seems only those that claim that POS are not profitable or even remotedly economically viable are the ones backing these claims with serious calculations and data... those that supposedly make isk with them have, it seems, very little to back up their claims... Perhaps those claiming to make loads of isk with their POS are the same ones constantly trolling the forums claiming to have perfect PVP setups ? and to deliver critical hits of 1500hp damage every few shots ? it's perfectly obvious the trolling is being done by the major alliances with a stake in keeping the status quo for POS maintenance. I think they're just whipping themselves into a frenzy to justify going on a POS-killing rampage after CCP nerf maintenance costs. 1+1=2 ______________________ Best darned links ingame and out (backup)
Steven Dynahir	Posted - 2005.01.21 14:28:00 - [169] Quote: You forgot 1 tiny part here. A POS can only have 1 reactor, since you need silo¦s too. So without a simple reaction everything you mine is useless garbage. Since you gonna need a whole extra POS for that. Way of the POS #1: 1. Install POS 2. Make 1 reaction 3. Install POS2 4. Make 1 reaction 5. Install POS3 6. Make 1 advanced reaction Way of the POS #2: 1. Install POS 2. Make 1 reaction 3. Sell the reaction product Way of the POS #3: 1. Install POS 2. Buy reaction products 3. Make 1 advanced reaction Way of the POS #4: 1. Install POS 2. Sell the mins The problem of production is not solved by introducing new features, but by introducing co-operation. (Altho there should be some way to build those tradegoods from ground up). SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR

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