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Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.08.25 18:48:00 - [61] Edited by: Riedle on 25/08/2010 18:49:49 Quote: you cant disagree on religion liberty if you disagree on that you disagree also on other liberties like freedom of expression That is not what this is about. I agree that they have the RIGHT to build the Mosque. I am exercising my right by disagreeing with it. That does not infringe on their fundamental right to do so anyways. My word is not the final say - it is just an opinion and I have the right to voice it the same way they have the right to ignore it. They are in conflict but they are not exclusionary. They can both co-exist. That's what a free society is all about - the exchange of ideas. Some people don't like it but there you go - we have it. Quote: so you are free to use the freedom of religion except for certain places true ? if there is a exception that is not a liberty anymore is a rule No. Read this slowly. They have an absolute right to build the mosque there. There is no question. I have an absolute right to oppose it. I am hoping that they realize that building it there will harm relations between their community and other communities in the USA. So out of respect and tolerance I am hoping that they change their mind as to the location and build it elsewhere. I am not asking the government to limit their rights in any way whatsoever. Many Muslims agree with what I am saying. weird eh? lol click here
Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.08.25 18:58:00 - [62] Edited by: Riedle on 25/08/2010 18:59:08 Quote: I guess you missed the part where the mosque in question is going to be run by people who *aren't the religious extremists behind 9/11?* I never said that they were in fact. I worded that awkwardly I admit but what I was trying to say is find another mass murder location carried out by religious extremists where the 'main stream' of that religion then wants to put a place of worship nearby. Then we can talk and you will see that I will disagree with that as well. Quote: This is exactly what I mean about the double standard: we assume that Christianity is made up of different factions, so, for example, we don't blame an extremely liberal church for the actions of a certain WWII German leader whose name is censored by the forums. ~groan~ Must we decend to that always? Godwin!! Quote: On the other hand, Islam is assumed to be a unified organization, and all of its members get the full blame for the actions of the extremists. If we can accept the idea of moderate Christianity, why can't we accept the idea of moderate Islam? Please show me where I blamed all Muslims for the actions of the fundamental Islamists on 9/11. Please show me where I demonstrated ignorance of Sunni, Shi'a, Sufism or Ahmadiyya Islam. Otherwise your post is largely an assumption of the motives of those you disagree with. I have, I think, aptly demonstrated that those do not apply to me or my postings here. It would be refreshing if we could get beyond the BIGOT!!oneone111 RACIST11!! line of thought and discuss the actual issue. Unfortunately I doubt that will be possible. click here
Atticus Fynch Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.08.25 18:59:00 - [63] I going to open a bacon shop on the other side (opposite the gay bar) and make sure the vents blow that wonderful bacon aroma towards the mosque. Hey after prayers, you've got to be hungry...right?
ceaon	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:17:00 - [64] Originally by: Riedle Read this slowly. read this even more slowly you cant disagree on rights Originally by: CCP Adida The male thread was locked because the discussion turned into transsexuals and man boobs.
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:30:00 - [65] Bacon rocks!!!! Signature locked for editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:10:00 - [66] Originally by: Intense Thinker Bacon rocks!!!! Agreed. Now forgive me but, isn't this thing getting build 4 blocks away from ground zero and won't it be hard to find another building that you can stuff all of the things they want in? Manhatten is not exactly known for its wide open spaces.
Sinister Dextor	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:22:00 - [67] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Intense Thinker Bacon rocks!!!! Agreed. Now forgive me but, isn't this thing getting build 4 blocks away from ground zero and won't it be hard to find another building that you can stuff all of the things they want in? Manhatten is not exactly known for its wide open spaces. Yeah, they could probably do with knocking a few buildings down.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Damu'Khonde	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:25:00 - [68] Originally by: Atticus Fynch [ Under any normal circumstance, no one would care. But it's just too soon. It may just take a generation before this becomes a non-issue. What if it had been there prior to 911? This uproar is a joke. I mean how close to "ground zeros" is it acceptable for Muslims to build whatever it is they want to build. Should they not be allowed to build in New York City or State, Washington D.C., or the State of Pennsylvania? People in the middle East deal with this stuff dail. Nothing would ever get done in the Middle East if they whined like this about every site that got blown up. It is time the US citizens toughen up and realize that the world does not revolve around them and their little soft, predominately Christian, hearts. Slade :Signature Temporarily Disabled:
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:29:00 - [69] Not too worried about the mosque, more worried about the people ****ed off about the mosque. As we all know, get a bunch of crazy people in large groups and you got a powder keg. results should be fun to watch on the news Signature locked for editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Culmen Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Dead Terrorists	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:45:00 - [70] Originally by: Slade Trillgon What if it had been there prior to 911? Like Masjid Manhattan. At 20 Warren Street, it is just 4 blocks away from ground zero. Originally by: Slade Trillgon This uproar is a joke. I mean how close to "ground zeros" is it acceptable for Muslims to build whatever it is they want to build. Should they not be allowed to build in New York City or State, Washington D.C., or the State of Pennsylvania? Agreed. This kind of behavior is precisely the sentiment that breeds terrorism. Place a group under constant scrutiny, violate their civil rights and freedom of religion and you are going to get a bunch of rather **ed off people. It's not just Muslims, look at Northern Ireland, Christians can get ed off and bomb happy as well. Really, I think that Muslim center should be moved closer, heck I wouldn't oppose one in the lobby of a rebuilt World Trade Center. Why? because people need to know that Muslims did not attack the World Trade Center. It was people who were Muslims, not ALL Muslims. That's like saying Christians did the Holocaust, because all of the National Socialist there were Christians. Really I think i figured out why alot of the world have trouble with Muslims, it's because they've never actually met any of them. All you get are the ***s on TV, and if you judged saaay American by the *****s on TV, you think they were all intolerant morons (and tell the truth many people have). Still if you actually met a Muslim, you'd know that they are people, some are nice , some are jerks, but they're people. and further more why do i even need a sig?
Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.08.25 21:03:00 - [71] Originally by: ceaon Originally by: Riedle Read this slowly. read this even more slowly you cant disagree on rights Sorry but I have deemed your IQ as too low to continue this discussion with you. click here
Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.08.25 21:16:00 - [72] Edited by: Riedle on 25/08/2010 21:16:42 Really, it amazes me the number of people that can't discern the not subtle difference in the meaning of CAN and SHOULD. The Mosque CAN be built there. The question and controvery is about wether it SHOULD be built there. No one's rights are being violated having this debate. That's what debate is all about. There are a lot of people that disagree with the Mosque being built there and that does not make them bigots believing that. To those that write them all off as bigots that makes you narrow minded - and you have a right to be narrow minded but it does not make the concerns about the mosque's location any less valid It does make me an idiot thinking that we could have an intelligent discussion about it on a video games website I suppose though lol over and out o/ PS: National Socialism was in no way a religious movement. lol click here
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Damu'Khonde	Posted - 2010.08.25 21:24:00 - [73] Originally by: Riedle Edited by: Riedle on 25/08/2010 21:16:42 Really, it amazes me the number of people that can't discern the not subtle difference in the meaning of CAN and SHOULD. The Mosque CAN be built there. The question and controvery is about wether it SHOULD be built there. No one's rights are being violated having this debate. That's what debate is all about. There are a lot of people that disagree with the Mosque being built there and that does not make them bigots believing that. To those that write them all off as bigots that makes you narrow minded - and you have a right to be narrow minded but it does not make the concerns about the mosque's location any less valid It does make me an idiot thinking that we could have an intelligent discussion about it on a video games website I suppose though lol over and out o/ PS: National Socialism was in no way a religious movement. lol Why should it not be built there? Slade :Signature Temporarily Disabled:
ceaon	Posted - 2010.08.25 21:33:00 - [74] Edited by: ceaon on 25/08/2010 21:34:01 Riedle you have a hard time to understand that ppl find hard to agree on stuff so to make things easier they agree to dont disagree in certain stuff usually this are named liberties and rights and this are base of today society Originally by: CCP Adida The male thread was locked because the discussion turned into transsexuals and man boobs.
Vogue Skynet Nexus	Posted - 2010.08.25 21:47:00 - [75] Originally by: ceaon Edited by: ceaon on 25/08/2010 21:34:01 Riedle you have a hard time to understand that ppl find hard to agree on stuff so to make things easier they agree to dont disagree in certain stuff usually this are named liberties and rights and this are base of today society Rights and liberties the base of our society? That is off the mark I would say. The base of our now more civilised society is based on the blood, sweat and tears of our ancestors who worked in factories, fought in wars against oppressive regimes. The rule of law and constitutional\law of the land liberties were built on the foundation stones of the struggles above. Peoples rights - freedom - volition to achieve what they want is built around the common denominator of material capital and capability: To do paid work according to supply and demand of what you can do. Those of a poorer background will achieve less material capital and capability than someone who is well educated. Social mobility, in the UK at least, has not changed much since 1910. Life is not fair. You have to make it fair. The roll of dice that is life gives some people more of a head start than others. .................................................. Cylon cultural victor!
DarthJosh DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.25 22:45:00 - [76] alqaeda is not islam. let that sink in already. you guys gave them weapons to fight commies. they are moslems, but they are not islam. Islam is messed up, yes. but so is Christianity. or any other organized religion. i'm sorry for your loss, but this is a case of not being informed and reacting with the crowd's collective paranoia. - Desusigs!
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.25 23:01:00 - [77] Originally by: DarthJosh alqaeda is not islam. let that sink in already. you guys gave them weapons to fight commies. they are moslems, but they are not islam. Islam is messed up, yes. but so is Christianity. or any other organized religion. i'm sorry for your loss, but this is a case of not being informed and reacting with the crowd's collective paranoia. A Muslim is an adherent of the religion of Islam. what you said makes no sense, it's like saying a Doberman isn't a dog. Signature locked for editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.08.25 23:08:00 - [78] Originally by: Intense Thinker Originally by: DarthJosh alqaeda is not islam. let that sink in already. you guys gave them weapons to fight commies. they are moslems, but they are not islam. Islam is messed up, yes. but so is Christianity. or any other organized religion. i'm sorry for your loss, but this is a case of not being informed and reacting with the crowd's collective paranoia. A Muslim is an adherent of the religion of Islam. what you said makes no sense, it's like saying a Doberman isn't a dog. I get it All of these terrorist groups are not representitive of Islam, they twist it to their match their goals. Selective reading and all that.
Bodrul Caldari Polaris Rising The Spire Collective	Posted - 2010.08.25 23:14:00 - [79] Originally by: Intense Thinker A Muslim is an adherent of the religion of Islam. what you said makes no sense, it's like saying a Doberman isn't a dog. i am a Muslim, i follow the teachings of Islam, my actions are those of my own, the way i follow islam is my actions, a Muslim should follow the islamic teachings but that doesnt make that person Islam. as mentioned before Christianity and so forth along with islam are faiths and not entities. just because one person uses the title Muslim doesnt mean he is Muslim or represents other msulims anyhow on the ground Zero mosque, like US muslim relations arent really at a low Iraq Afganinistan (Creating alquida with Pakistan inteligence didnt help) Israel Pakistan (for decades arming a dicator) India, (hypcoracy with the nuclear reactor deals) Iran with the shah and so forth sont think Faith has anything to do with the bad blood between the US and some people in the country the forign policies which it has used. ............ Researched BPO Lottery (Using Darkness+ Charibbas dice) ........
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.25 23:20:00 - [80] Originally by: Bodrul Originally by: Intense Thinker A Muslim is an adherent of the religion of Islam. what you said makes no sense, it's like saying a Doberman isn't a dog. i am a Muslim, i follow the teachings of Islam, my actions are those of my own, the way i follow islam is my actions, a Muslim should follow the islamic teachings but that doesnt make that person Islam. as mentioned before Christianity and so forth along with islam are faiths and not entities. just because one person uses the title Muslim doesnt mean he is Muslim or represents other msulims anyhow on the ground Zero mosque, like US muslim relations arent really at a low Iraq Afganinistan (Creating alquida with Pakistan inteligence didnt help) Israel Pakistan (for decades arming a dicator) India, (hypcoracy with the nuclear reactor deals) Iran with the shah and so forth sont think Faith has anything to do with the bad blood between the US and some people in the country the forign policies which it has used. Ok now in English plz, I can become Islam? Signature locked for editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2010.08.25 23:36:00 - [81] Any other churches or places of worships and prayer in the same radius of ground zero? Remove'em all! I don't give a ** what religion, all of'em. Or.. simply allow all of them. Pick one, that's the only option. Religion has **ed this world and humanity enough as it is throughout history. Seperate church n state is so mind boggling profound, it is a shame it has been never followed because people are so egotistical to the point they want to be a God. No? Yes.. Just about every religion, in some way of wording or another boils down to.. if you want to be one with God and thus be like him, you have to do this this this and this, as he himself has deemed so. If not, you're boned. Politics.. to gather a group of people that believe your word and to make it the Law, forcing others to follow it. If not, you're boned. Huh.. sounds kinda of familiar when you think about it. Republicans, Democrats.. any and all political parties, in any country, have ties some how, some where.. that promote a form of Religion.. Religous, commercial, judicial. Maybe one day, I hope.. it'll actually be the voice of the present people and choice, rather than dead 'political' religous zealots doing what needed to be done to assert their authority as a God amongest the people, for the good of the people.. so they may be one with 'God' too. thread lock in 3.. 2.. ---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it-
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.25 23:39:00 - [82] Originally by: Umega Any other churches or places of worships and prayer in the same radius of ground zero? Remove'em all! I don't give a ** what religion, all of'em. Or.. simply allow all of them. Pick one, that's the only option. Religion has *ed this world and humanity enough as it is throughout history. Seperate church n state is so mind boggling profound, it is a shame it has been never followed because people are so egotistical to the point they want to be a God. No? Yes.. Just about every religion, in some way of wording or another boils down to.. if you want to be one with God and thus be like him, you have to do this this this and this, as he himself has deemed so. If not, you're boned. Politics.. to gather a group of people that believe your word and to make it the Law, forcing others to follow it. If not, you're boned. Huh.. sounds kinda of familiar when you think about it. Republicans, Democrats.. any and all political parties, in any country, have ties some how, some where.. that promote a form of Religion.. Religous, commercial, judicial. Maybe one day, I hope.. it'll actually be the voice of the present people and choice, rather than dead 'political' religous zealots doing what needed to be done to assert their authority as a God amongest the people, for the good of the people.. so they may be one with 'God' too. thread lock in 3.. 2.. Flashes ***** and scares all the devs away before they can lock this thread* Signature locked for editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.08.25 23:43:00 - [83] Edited by: Riedle on 25/08/2010 23:48:38 Quote: Why should it not be built there? Because it is upsetting alot of their neighbours that see it as a provacation. If they want to 'reach out' they would understand and build it somewhere else. Quote: EDIT: As for your comment on national socialism. His point was that it was not a religious movement and that what is going on in New York is tantamount to saying that the holocost was caused by Chrisitanity. In order for that to make ANY sense you would have to agree that the **'s were fundamentalist Christians and they were nothing of the sort so the analogy doesn't work. * = short term for national socialists. Can't say that word here for some reason. Also, if you study some history of the time the National Socialists had a very cozy alliance with the Grand Mufti of Palestine. They shared some of the same goals. :/ click here
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.08.25 23:44:00 - [84] Originally by: Intense Thinker Flashes **** and scares all the devs away before they can lock this thread* Great, now I am going to have nightmares tonight
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.26 00:00:00 - [85] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 26/08/2010 00:00:42 Originally by: Riedle In order for that to make ANY sense you would have to agree that the **'s were fundamentalist Christians and they were nothing of the sort so the analogy doesn't work. * = short term for national socialists. Bull**. Not only were they Christians, they were quite happy to justify their actions as the will of god. http://www.nobeliefs.com/**1.htm Replace the ***s in the link with the last name of the leader of WWII Germany. -----------
Sergeant Spot Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.26 01:39:00 - [86] If I honestly believed it was not an Islamic trophy building ("Islamic" community center with a prayer room, or full blown Mosque... either way....), I'd lose no sleep over it. But it is a 911 trophy building. If it was really about "healing" and "building Bridges", then it would be perfectly reasonable for the Russians to build a "Community Center" dedicated to Stalin in the general area of Katyn Forest. Having said that, most folks that are against it, actually SUPPORT the right of a property owner, EVEN IN THIS CASE. But there sure ain't no reason to be quiet about it, and there is EVERY reason to expose where the money came from (and if the money turns out honest, if they did not like getting investigated, they should not provoke people....) If it turns out that the money is dirty, all bets are off. Play nice while you butcher each other.
ChaeDoc II Gallente Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.26 04:54:00 - [87] Originally by: Riedle Edited by: Riedle on 25/08/2010 18:42:37 Quote: Fine, no mosque near places where Islam has done horrible things. I wouldn't agree to that. I am saying, and what the majority of Americans are saying, is no to that mosque at that location. They recognize they have the right to do so, but they would prefer them not to and the more reasonable of them are asking the developers to construct it somewhere else. Quote: However, since we aren't hypocrites, we'll also have to hold every other religion to the same standard. I agree and I think, by in large, the west does. If anything most people tip toe around the subject when it is brought up. Quote: For example, that means no churches allowed anywhere near a Christian or branch of Christianity has done anything that anyone might not like (including existing churches: those with redeeming architectural or historical features will be converted to a more productive use, the rest will be bulldozed and the land sold to the highest non-church bidder). What? You mean we effectively just banned churches? Awesome. It's not like they were good for anything anyway. Ok, a bit of a rant there... I would support your right to protest a church being built in a location where you didn't think it appropriate. Quote: Oh wait, I forgot, Islam is the only religion where we don't recognize that there are different factions with different ideologies and we blame everyone for the actions of a single group. If you want to believe that then that is your right but I don't see how it related to this subject at all. You find us an example of religious extremists other than radical Islamist who want to build a house a worship near where mass murder was done in their name and then we'll talk. I can tell you that you are not likely to find a single example, but if you do I will be right there saying that while they would have a RIGHT to build it, they should be more respectful and not do so. Riedle, just imagine how much better you could have used the time it took yu to type that post if you have a sense of irony.
ChaeDoc II Gallente Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.26 05:00:00 - [88] Originally by: Sinister Dextor Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Intense Thinker Bacon rocks!!!! Agreed. Now forgive me but, isn't this thing getting build 4 blocks away from ground zero and won't it be hard to find another building that you can stuff all of the things they want in? Manhatten is not exactly known for its wide open spaces. Yeah, they could probably do with knocking a few buildings down. lmao. Coffee... sprayed everywhere.
ChaeDoc II Gallente Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.26 05:08:00 - [89] Originally by: Intense Thinker Originally by: Bodrul Originally by: Intense Thinker A Muslim is an adherent of the religion of Islam. what you said makes no sense, it's like saying a Doberman isn't a dog. i am a Muslim, i follow the teachings of Islam, my actions are those of my own, the way i follow islam is my actions, a Muslim should follow the islamic teachings but that doesnt make that person Islam. as mentioned before Christianity and so forth along with islam are faiths and not entities. just because one person uses the title Muslim doesnt mean he is Muslim or represents other msulims anyhow on the ground Zero mosque, like US muslim relations arent really at a low Iraq Afganinistan (Creating alquida with Pakistan inteligence didnt help) Israel Pakistan (for decades arming a dicator) India, (hypcoracy with the nuclear reactor deals) Iran with the shah and so forth sont think Faith has anything to do with the bad blood between the US and some people in the country the forign policies which it has used. Ok now in English plz, I can become Islam? No, you moron. That's the point. As said before and you mistook the meaning, Al-qaeda is not Islam. Just like Bodrul is not Islam.
Atticus Fynch Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.08.26 05:28:00 - [90] For those saying it's 4 blocks from ground zero, keep in mind how many blocks the debris and body parts covered from ground zero. Youtube 911 and see for yourself.

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