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Templar Dane
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.09.28 22:24:00 -
[151]
Originally by: NightmareX
A Vindicator with a Federation Navy Webber should hit Cruisers very easily. So that's why Blasters needs more tracking so they can hit targets like cruiser better at 500m or something like that.
Think before you speak though.
A vindicator could hit a cruiser with a ****ing siege blaster if it could fit one. I watched a fail covert ops pilot tackle a paladin with tachyons and instapopped because the paladin pilot knew what he was doing. I've seen blaster pilots of all ages swoop in and orbit smaller ships at 500m and then later complain about how they were missing....
Originally by: EFT Worrier
how much DPS do those megas apply while being roflkited at 40km by a gang of large pulses fitted with scorch? answer: none.
Gotta watch out for those nano armageddons with overloaded, loki-boosted domination warp disruptors. NERF NANO ARMAGEDDONS.
How DARE another weapon system out-perform blasters at ANY range!
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.09.28 22:51:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Templar Dane
Originally by: NightmareX
A Vindicator with a Federation Navy Webber should hit Cruisers very easily. So that's why Blasters needs more tracking so they can hit targets like cruiser better at 500m or something like that.
Think before you speak though.
A vindicator could hit a cruiser with a ****ing siege blaster if it could fit one. I watched a fail covert ops pilot tackle a paladin with tachyons and instapopped because the paladin pilot knew what he was doing. I've seen blaster pilots of all ages swoop in and orbit smaller ships at 500m and then later complain about how they were missing....
Originally by: EFT Worrier
how much DPS do those megas apply while being roflkited at 40km by a gang of large pulses fitted with scorch? answer: none.
Gotta watch out for those nano armageddons with overloaded, loki-boosted domination warp disruptors. NERF NANO ARMAGEDDONS.
How DARE another weapon system out-perform blasters at ANY range!
-1/10
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Ocih
Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.09.28 23:09:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Hentes Zsemle
Battleships are not supposed to hit cruisers at 500m. However, i do have problems hitting other cruisers with medium blasters at 5km. For blasters to actually work at their range, they would need at least twice the tracking they have now, not +10%.
So why are they there? The point in short range weapons in any space based sci-fi was to repell small, fast moving ships like fighters. In EvE they cant track stationary targets. Translation: Junk. |
Eric Policky
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Posted - 2010.09.29 00:37:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Ocih
Originally by: Hentes Zsemle
Battleships are not supposed to hit cruisers at 500m. However, i do have problems hitting other cruisers with medium blasters at 5km. For blasters to actually work at their range, they would need at least twice the tracking they have now, not +10%.
So why are they there? The point in short range weapons in any space based sci-fi was to repell small, fast moving ships like fighters. In EvE they cant track stationary targets. Translation: Junk.
In your world, blasters should be the lowest damage weapon, with the highest tracking and ability to hit the smallest signature size. In EVE, they are short range, high damage, designed to get up close and wreak havoc. They should have the highest tracking, but high signature radius penalty (so they could track small fast targets but still not do damage to them, and don't turn on that MWD while in blaster range!). They should not be able to hit "downsize" targets (i.e. battleship shooting at cruiser) very well, and certainly not when orbiting at close range, but inside nominal orbiting a same size or larger target should be able to apply full damage to target. Not being a blaster-boat PVPer, I do not know if this is the case currently. But I do know I fully disagree with your assessment of how they should be.
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Ocih
Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.09.29 00:40:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Ocih on 29/09/2010 00:41:51 I get it, they are the shotguns of EvE. They still dont work. If you want to defend broken blasters, feel free. I use lasers.
- not a flame. just trying to stress that they dont really work for what they are supposed to do. |
Eric Policky
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Posted - 2010.09.29 00:44:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Ocih Edited by: Ocih on 29/09/2010 00:41:51 I get it, they are the shotguns of EvE. They still dont work. If you want to defend broken blasters, feel free. I use lasers.
- not a flame. just trying to stress that they dont really work for what they are supposed to do.
Think shotguns, but not loaded with bird shot. Loaded with slugs, so you hit hard but can't hit those small quick targets.
Actually that's a decent idea for differentiating blaster ammo options. Have the "slug" type which can't hit small targets but does huge damage, designed to lay the hurt on equal size and larger targets. Then have a "birdshot" type which decreases damage, but can hit much smaller targets, designed to take take out ships a size lower than your ship, filling the role of the frigate buster. To counteract this flexibility, have blasters take longer than other weapon types to swap ammo, giving a sharp frig pilot the ability to get out of dodge when the blasterboat they are orbiting suddenly stops shooting.
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Ocih
Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.09.29 00:59:00 -
[157]
They dont need to flip ammo. They have variants of blasters that could apply different effect. Ion has a multiplier, Electron has a refire but none adjust for miss factor. Back to the original frustration, the problem is Optimal. Blaster Optimal is impossible to establish. Amarr have similar problems and Lasers become useless because the ships are simply to slow. TBH I think the problem is core EvE. The ships have become way to specialized over all and everyone is looking for that broad range application ship. Blaster boats fail at it and they arent alone. Alot of ships do. |
Eric Policky
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Posted - 2010.09.29 01:15:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Ocih They dont need to flip ammo. They have variants of blasters that could apply different effect. Ion has a multiplier, Electron has a refire but none adjust for miss factor. Back to the original frustration, the problem is Optimal. Blaster Optimal is impossible to establish. Amarr have similar problems and Lasers become useless because the ships are simply to slow. TBH I think the problem is core EvE. The ships have become way to specialized over all and everyone is looking for that broad range application ship. Blaster boats fail at it and they arent alone. Alot of ships do.
I don't understand. You advocate not swapping ammo to change damage profiles (which would allow a ship to be tactically flexible), but rather swapping guns (which means you specialize your ship in station, then are locked in once you enter space), then complain that the problem is that ships are too specialized.
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Hentes Zsemle
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Posted - 2010.09.29 07:00:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Eric Policky
Originally by: Ocih They dont need to flip ammo. They have variants of blasters that could apply different effect. Ion has a multiplier, Electron has a refire but none adjust for miss factor. Back to the original frustration, the problem is Optimal. Blaster Optimal is impossible to establish. Amarr have similar problems and Lasers become useless because the ships are simply to slow. TBH I think the problem is core EvE. The ships have become way to specialized over all and everyone is looking for that broad range application ship. Blaster boats fail at it and they arent alone. Alot of ships do.
I don't understand. You advocate not swapping ammo to change damage profiles (which would allow a ship to be tactically flexible), but rather swapping guns (which means you specialize your ship in station, then are locked in once you enter space), then complain that the problem is that ships are too specialized.
The fact that the ships are as specialized as they are now is not going to change, its a major rule in all mmos that if something isn't specialized in something, its sh*t.
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Rastigan
Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.09.29 11:55:00 -
[160]
Apparently discussing a topic about Hybrid weapons makes the post invisible to CCP. This has already been on the wrong forum for a while and we havent gotten any response or even a move to the right subforum.
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Manipulator General
o.0
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Posted - 2010.09.29 12:02:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Rastigan Apparently discussing a topic about Hybrid weapons makes the post invisible to CCP. This has already been on the wrong forum for a while and we havent gotten any response or even a move to the right subforum.
That's easily remedied; just post an inappropriate image, or discuss moderation of blasters etc. That'll provoke a reply.
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BIZZAROSTORMY
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Posted - 2010.09.29 15:39:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Eric Policky
Originally by: Ocih Edited by: Ocih on 29/09/2010 00:41:51 I get it, they are the shotguns of EvE. They still dont work. If you want to defend broken blasters, feel free. I use lasers.
- not a flame. just trying to stress that they dont really work for what they are supposed to do.
Think shotguns, but not loaded with bird shot. Loaded with slugs, so you hit hard but can't hit those small quick targets.
Actually that's a decent idea for differentiating blaster ammo options. Have the "slug" type which can't hit small targets but does huge damage, designed to lay the hurt on equal size and larger targets. Then have a "birdshot" type which decreases damage, but can hit much smaller targets, designed to take take out ships a size lower than your ship, filling the role of the frigate buster. To counteract this flexibility, have blasters take longer than other weapon types to swap ammo, giving a sharp frig pilot the ability to get out of dodge when the blasterboat they are orbiting suddenly stops shooting.
yeah and the TEN SECONDS it takes to load a different ammo type is true to life also. And since typical PVP engagements last up to several hours, waiting 10 seconds for your ammo to load is no drawback. PLus you can check your emails while you wait.
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Sean Faust
Gallente Point of No Return Waterboard
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Posted - 2010.09.29 16:05:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Neesa Corrinne Armor Tanking + Blasters = FAIL
The whole problem with Gallente ships is that they are stuck in a never ending cycle of fail. Let me explain:
1) Most blaster ships are armor tanking ships, either because of how many low slots they have or simply because they have a bonus to armor tanking.
2) Blasters are short range and need to close distance quickly in order to be effective.
3) Armor tanking mods slow your ship down by either reducing top speed or lowering agility.
So basically you need to close the distance quickly, but you can't close the distance quickly because your armor mods are slowing you down, therefore by the time you are able to apply your damage you are hopelessly out DPS'd.
Amarr don't suffer from this problem because their weapons have much better optimal ranges, so being slow doesn't effect them as much in a committed fight.
This. The simplest and easiest solution is to reposition Gallente on the tanking spectrum, so that they, like the Minmatar, have some ships that were designed to be shield tanked and some that were designed to be armor tanked. Make their turret/blaster ships shield tankers, and keep their drone boats as armor tankers.
The entire Gallente race was designed and balanced around solo PVP. Look at the way their ships blend strong armor tanks with good DPS and utility. It doesn't help them much in gangs but makes for a great solo ship. Unfortunately, solo PVP doesn't happen often enough in EVE to really account for it, except for on the frigate scale. They lack pointed roles. Anything you can bring to a gang in a Deimos, I can do better in a Zealot because I can sit my butt where it is while dealing WTFBBQ DPS without having to worry about trying to close distance.
Blasters are fine as has been stated many times before. It's the ships that need to be fixed. Make them shield tankers and all will be well. A shield tanked Deimos with its mid and low slots reversed would be awesome.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.09.29 16:32:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Sean Faust A shield tanked Deimos with its mid and low slots reversed would be awesome.
while your idea has merit (quite the merit actually), what you're implying is too much of a radical solution, basically shifting a whole race from armor tanking to shield tanking, since the gallente drone boats would want such thing too.
that said, shifting to shield tanking would make people demand "MOAR MEDSLOTS!" cuz they would need at the very least 3 medslots for speed/tackle ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Hentes Zsemle
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Posted - 2010.09.29 19:39:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Sean Faust
Originally by: Neesa Corrinne Armor Tanking + Blasters = FAIL
The whole problem with Gallente ships is that they are stuck in a never ending cycle of fail. Let me explain:
1) Most blaster ships are armor tanking ships, either because of how many low slots they have or simply because they have a bonus to armor tanking.
2) Blasters are short range and need to close distance quickly in order to be effective.
3) Armor tanking mods slow your ship down by either reducing top speed or lowering agility.
So basically you need to close the distance quickly, but you can't close the distance quickly because your armor mods are slowing you down, therefore by the time you are able to apply your damage you are hopelessly out DPS'd.
Amarr don't suffer from this problem because their weapons have much better optimal ranges, so being slow doesn't effect them as much in a committed fight.
This. The simplest and easiest solution is to reposition Gallente on the tanking spectrum, so that they, like the Minmatar, have some ships that were designed to be shield tanked and some that were designed to be armor tanked. Make their turret/blaster ships shield tankers, and keep their drone boats as armor tankers.
The entire Gallente race was designed and balanced around solo PVP. Look at the way their ships blend strong armor tanks with good DPS and utility. It doesn't help them much in gangs but makes for a great solo ship. Unfortunately, solo PVP doesn't happen often enough in EVE to really account for it, except for on the frigate scale. They lack pointed roles. Anything you can bring to a gang in a Deimos, I can do better in a Zealot because I can sit my butt where it is while dealing WTFBBQ DPS without having to worry about trying to close distance.
Blasters are fine as has been stated many times before. It's the ships that need to be fixed. Make them shield tankers and all will be well. A shield tanked Deimos with its mid and low slots reversed would be awesome.
I'd like to point out that caldari have got shield tanked gunboats, and they suck aswell with blasters. Blasters are fine as has been stated many times before by ppl who haven't actually tried using them.
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Cambarus
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.09.29 20:28:00 -
[166]
Not sure I've posted here yet, so may as well: Megathron V Armageddon: Mega ODs the geddon by ~9% in optimal (which is 4.5km) assuming close range ammo on both. The geddon will OD the mega starting at about 7km, well within scram/web range (assuming similar fits) If the mega switches to null, it will never OD a geddon. They have nearly identical speed and ehp. The mega is useless past ~20km, and is already doing horrendous damage at that range. The geddon switches to scorch past 20km (assuming he didn't bother bringing other crystals), where his optimal goes out to 45 without bonuses or tracking mods.
Repeat after me: "Blasters are fine."
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.09.29 21:00:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Cambarus Not sure I've posted here yet, so may as well: Megathron V Armageddon: Mega ODs the geddon by ~9% in optimal (which is 4.5km) assuming close range ammo on both. The geddon will OD the mega starting at about 7km, well within scram/web range (assuming similar fits) If the mega switches to null, it will never OD a geddon. They have nearly identical speed and ehp. The mega is useless past ~20km, and is already doing horrendous damage at that range. The geddon switches to scorch past 20km (assuming he didn't bother bringing other crystals), where his optimal goes out to 45 without bonuses or tracking mods.
Repeat after me: "Blasters are fine."
in all honesty, the problem is not the fact that the mega outdamages the geddon only at ranges up to 7km.
the problem is that the mega outdamages the geddon up to 7km by an insignificant margin. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Hentes Zsemle
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Posted - 2010.09.29 21:05:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Cambarus ...
I know it is not related directly but have you checked navy mega vs navy geddon? its so damn ridiculous... and i know it doesn't actually mean much but mega is a tier 2 BS.
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Travarica
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Posted - 2010.09.30 13:53:00 -
[169]
Page 3? I don't think so!
FIX teh blasterz!!!
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Hentes Zsemle
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Posted - 2010.09.30 17:33:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Travarica Page 3? I don't think so!
FIX teh blasterz!!!
page 3 is bad mkay
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NightmareX
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.09.30 18:48:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Travarica FIX teh blasterz!!!
Fix your Gallente / Blaster skills and the way you use Gallente ships instead.
If you do that, then Blasters are awesome.
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takedoom
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Posted - 2010.09.30 18:57:00 -
[172]
I honestly don't think there is any problem with blasters to be honest. Good for station camping and warping on top of a target. Other than that yeah it sucks against smaller and/or ranged ships but that is just balance for you.
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LittleTerror
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:02:00 -
[173]
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: Travarica FIX teh blasterz!!!
Fix your Gallente / Blaster skills and the way you use Gallente ships instead.
If you do that, then Blasters are awesome.
QFT
I fly both laser and blaster boats and I love them both for how different they are! |
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:05:00 -
[174]
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: Travarica FIX teh blasterz!!!
Fix your Gallente / Blaster skills and the way you use vindicators instead If you do that, then Blasters are ok.
fyp ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
takedoom
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Posted - 2010.09.30 20:42:00 -
[175]
Originally by: takedoom I honestly don't think there is any problem with blasters to be honest. Good for station camping and warping on top of a target. Other than that yeah it sucks against smaller and/or ranged ships but that is just balance for you.
the thing is, all the other short range weapons allow flexibility in range engagement.
blaster ships don't have that luxury. you either land on top of the target or you die, and god forbids if your target actually kites you.
also I don't call "balance" a weapon system that has a minor damage advantage as the only advantage over all the other short range weapons.
I mean it would be ok if we were talking in 25% or more difference in damage, but the damage usually struggles to go up to 10% more than the other weapons.
I don't have any problems killing people using blasters so I don't know why it needs to be buffed.
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Twisted Mister
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Posted - 2010.09.30 20:52:00 -
[176]
Edited by: Twisted Mister on 30/09/2010 20:53:28 the fact that you personally don't have problem killing with ppl with it doesn't change the fact that other weapons are way better than it in every way possible
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takedoom
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Posted - 2010.09.30 21:15:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Twisted Mister Edited by: Twisted Mister on 30/09/2010 20:53:28 the fact that you personally don't have problem killing with ppl with it doesn't change the fact that other weapons are way better than it in every way possible
Blasters do more damage than any other turret types though. Your statement is not true. You just need to learn how to fit and fly Gallente ships. Pick your fights, you can't expect to win every fight just because you got blasters.
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Twisted Mister
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Posted - 2010.09.30 22:17:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Twisted Mister on 30/09/2010 22:18:36
Originally by: takedoom
Originally by: Twisted Mister Edited by: Twisted Mister on 30/09/2010 20:53:28 the fact that you personally don't have problem killing with ppl with it doesn't change the fact that other weapons are way better than it in every way possible
Blasters do more damage than any other turret types though. Your statement is not true. You just need to learn how to fit and fly Gallente ships. Pick your fights, you can't expect to win every fight just because you got blasters.
Blasters do about 10% more damage than autocannons (if we talk about similarry fitted ships), while autocannons get much more than +10% tracking and roughly 2x or more the effective range of blasters. They have much lower fitting requirements, not consuming cap, and can change damage type. Seriously we (the ppl who tried to fly gallente blasterboats versus close range ships of other races) can just repeat theese all over and over. i'd rather not mention lasers.
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takedoom
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Posted - 2010.09.30 22:45:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Twisted Mister Edited by: Twisted Mister on 30/09/2010 22:18:36
Originally by: takedoom
Originally by: Twisted Mister Edited by: Twisted Mister on 30/09/2010 20:53:28 the fact that you personally don't have problem killing with ppl with it doesn't change the fact that other weapons are way better than it in every way possible
Blasters do more damage than any other turret types though. Your statement is not true. You just need to learn how to fit and fly Gallente ships. Pick your fights, you can't expect to win every fight just because you got blasters.
Blasters do about 10% more damage than autocannons (if we talk about similarry fitted ships), while autocannons get much more than +10% tracking and roughly 2x or more the effective range of blasters. They have much lower fitting requirements, not consuming cap, and can change damage type. Seriously we (the ppl who tried to fly gallente blasterboats versus close range ships of other races) can just repeat theese all over and over. i'd rather not mention lasers.
If only there was a module that could slow down other ships. That would compliment the blasters nicely.
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Twisted Mister
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Posted - 2010.09.30 23:21:00 -
[180]
Originally by: takedoom
Originally by: Twisted Mister Edited by: Twisted Mister on 30/09/2010 22:18:36
Originally by: takedoom
Originally by: Twisted Mister Edited by: Twisted Mister on 30/09/2010 20:53:28 the fact that you personally don't have problem killing with ppl with it doesn't change the fact that other weapons are way better than it in every way possible
Blasters do more damage than any other turret types though. Your statement is not true. You just need to learn how to fit and fly Gallente ships. Pick your fights, you can't expect to win every fight just because you got blasters.
Blasters do about 10% more damage than autocannons (if we talk about similarry fitted ships), while autocannons get much more than +10% tracking and roughly 2x or more the effective range of blasters. They have much lower fitting requirements, not consuming cap, and can change damage type. Seriously we (the ppl who tried to fly gallente blasterboats versus close range ships of other races) can just repeat theese all over and over. i'd rather not mention lasers.
If only there was a module that could slow down other ships. That would compliment the blasters nicely.
if only there wasn't a module needed for it, just like for other turrets
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