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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.09.30 23:26:00 -
[181]
Originally by: takedoom If only there was a module that could slow down other ships. That would compliment the blasters nicely.
if only there was a module that could slow down other ships. That would compliment the autocannos/pulse lasers/torps nicely.
your point being?
also, to get the same effect AC's can do at short range, you actually need 2 webs with blasters.
you see, back in the nano nerf CCP forgot to account that the web nerf would actually mean a 500% nerf on the ability for blasters to track anything in web ranges.
thus why vindicator/vigilant/daredevil are above "ok" with blasters (read: web str bonus).
all this still means that blasters have a only a single advantage over pretty much every other short range weapon out there, and even then, that said advantage (damage) doesn't cover the the fact that they are consistently outperformed by all said weapons.
sure ok, blasters outdamage everything up to 7km, but the margin is so small that you're better off using other ships with other weapon systems, simply because your "omfg-4km-optimal-doom-spitter" is outmaneuvered and outkited by every other ship out there that will be able to project a tiny less amount of damage you can do for 3x more the range. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.10.01 00:16:00 -
[182]
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 01/10/2010 00:19:12
Originally by: takedoom
I don't have any problems killing people using blasters so I don't know why it needs to be buffed.
LIAR !!
You fly minmatar as well. ALL your loses are gallente and if you ever happen to kill people in blaster ship , those are lolfits or pve ships , that i could kill with rockets.
Blaster are no good for any kind of decent fight. FIGHT != ganking defensless targets.
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Kassa Daito
Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.01 01:52:00 -
[183]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Blaster are no good for any kind of decent fight. FIGHT != ganking defensless targets.
I would like to point out that the Proteus is fine.
It does so by having more lowslots than any other ship of its class (with a similar setup), more drones than other ships of its class, and ship bonuses for tackling, damage, tracking, and passive tanking so I don't think it's quite viable on T1 or T2 ships. However, it is an excellent example of what happens when Gallente get the perfect (AKA overpowered) blasterboat they have been whining about for so long. ** Disclaimer: Author sometimes spell checks but is not responsible for sins of commission, omission, emission, transmission, or submission. Flowers, bricks, or any other form of feedback appreciated |
Whelan Jr
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Posted - 2010.10.01 01:58:00 -
[184]
No problem then. Every Gallente player then just needs to train up to and afford a T3 strategic cruiser.
Problem solved...simple as that.
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NightmareX
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.10.01 06:59:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Grimpak sure ok, blasters outdamage everything up to 7km, but the margin is so small that you're better off using other ships with other weapon systems, simply because your "omfg-4km-optimal-doom-spitter" is outmaneuvered and outkited by every other ship out there that will be able to project a tiny less amount of damage you can do for 3x more the range.
Ehm, a Neutron Mega with 1 damage mod actually outdamages an Armageddon with Pulses and 2x damage mods by around 2-3% out to like 7 km.
And i wouldn't call that for a small margin.
If the Neutron Mega use 2x damage mods, it will do around 10% more DPS i think over the Pulse Geddon with 2x damage mods.
This is after resists are taken into the picture.
But like i have said earlier. It wouldn't hurt to let the Blasters hit stuffs better, or letting Blasters applying their damage advantage better by increasing the DPS by 5% and the tracking by 10%.
If you can control the range on you Mega from the targets you are shooting, or if the targets doesn't goes and orbit you at 500m, then you should be fine and you should be able to apply good DPS to your targets.
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Hentes Zsemle
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Posted - 2010.10.01 07:49:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Kassa Daito
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Blaster are no good for any kind of decent fight. FIGHT != ganking defensless targets.
I would like to point out that the Proteus is fine.
It does so by having more lowslots than any other ship of its class (with a similar setup), more drones than other ships of its class, and ship bonuses for tackling, damage, tracking, and passive tanking so I don't think it's quite viable on T1 or T2 ships. However, it is an excellent example of what happens when Gallente get the perfect (AKA overpowered) blasterboat they have been whining about for so long.
The proteus is nice, only the tengu, legion and loki are better.
nightmareX: 10% extra damage is insignificant, especially if paired with 1/3 the range.
Still nothing from ccp...
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Travarica
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Posted - 2010.10.01 07:56:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Hentes Zsemle
Originally by: Kassa Daito
The proteus is nice, only the tengu, legion and loki are better.
nightmareX: 10% extra damage is insignificant, especially if paired with 1/3 the range.
Still nothing from ccp...
QFT!
33% less range should approximatly equal 33% more damage, that sounds like balanced to me..
10% more damage does not
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takedoom
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Posted - 2010.10.01 08:50:00 -
[188]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 01/10/2010 00:19:12
Originally by: takedoom
I don't have any problems killing people using blasters so I don't know why it needs to be buffed.
LIAR !!
You fly minmatar as well. ALL your loses are gallente and if you ever happen to kill people in blaster ship , those are lolfits or pve ships , that i could kill with rockets.
Blaster are no good for any kind of decent fight. FIGHT != ganking defensless targets.
I got most Gallente losses because I fly Gallente most of the time. So I kill some mission runners and can flippers. I don't see why I should exclude them from my blasters. I fly Minmatar for the Hurricane and Vagabond because I don't like Gallente HAC and the Brutix.
You obviously know what you are writing about from scrolling through like what 2 pages of battle clinic . You don't have any kills so why should anyone trust you know anything about blasters? The DPS from blasters is fine, no one would use them other wise if they were really that bad.
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Hentes Zsemle
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Posted - 2010.10.01 09:10:00 -
[189]
Originally by: takedoom
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 01/10/2010 00:19:12
Originally by: takedoom
I don't have any problems killing people using blasters so I don't know why it needs to be buffed.
LIAR !!
You fly minmatar as well. ALL your loses are gallente and if you ever happen to kill people in blaster ship , those are lolfits or pve ships , that i could kill with rockets.
Blaster are no good for any kind of decent fight. FIGHT != ganking defensless targets.
I got most Gallente losses because I fly Gallente most of the time. So I kill some mission runners and can flippers. I don't see why I should exclude them from my blasters. I fly Minmatar for the Hurricane and Vagabond because I don't like Gallente HAC and the Brutix.
You obviously know what you are writing about from scrolling through like what 2 pages of battle clinic . You don't have any kills so why should anyone trust you know anything about blasters? The DPS from blasters is fine, no one would use them other wise if they were really that bad.
While you are at it, check how many ppl are using pulses and ACs in comparison thx.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.10.01 09:44:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Grimpak on 01/10/2010 09:45:53
Originally by: NightmareX But like i have said earlier. It wouldn't hurt to let the Blasters hit stuffs better, or letting Blasters applying their damage advantage better by increasing the DPS by 5% and the tracking by 10%.
I still prefer a more decisive approach:
a) 20% more damage + ~5% more tracking (could be increased). For rebalancing sanity, make it so that blasters can apply said damage to ranges up to 15km at most and for battleships only. cruisers get to work probably up to the 10km mark or so. I don't mind them being totally point blank, as long as they have an argument strong enough (overwhelming damage) to remain point blank.
b)plate's mass cut by 50% at most; reformulation of armor rigs so that they either have other penalties, or their speed penalties get reduced in a manner that they interfere with a ship's mobility, but not actually kill said mobility.
c) the more blaster oriented ships get their mass shaved off a bit (5% or so), and at the same time, their agility gets also increased (5~10%).
d) reformulation of active tanking vs passive tanking. atm while active tanking isn't really that bad, passive tanking is miles better. there should be a synergy between both types of tanking in a manner that one is not better than the other, but provides something the other can't.
this way blaster ships are decisively the most damaging ships out there (unlike today, that are barely bigger threats), and can actually move around in the battlefield with much more ease than today, yet unlike pulses or autocannons, they still get their operability range limited to at the very most, disruptor range, while being to pummel down to dust every other ship of equal class in said ranges.
as a bonus, we also get the armor rigs and active tank fixed
I don't have any delusions about this suggestion tho that it will be very hard to balance out, but this way we could pretty much fix a great number of things in this game in a single swoop. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
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Hentes Zsemle
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Posted - 2010.10.01 09:56:00 -
[191]
I kinda liked when the federation navy armor plates were introduced. Not as much tank as the amarr version, but they are lighter. IMO thats the way to go towards rebalancing gallente.
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Twisted Mister
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Posted - 2010.10.01 22:02:00 -
[192]
up
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Alyth
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.10.02 15:35:00 -
[193]
A plated, trimarked 'thron flies at 820(ish)m/s, needs to be inside of 12km if not using null (and thereby reducing its damage by ~20%), needs to use up half it's cap getting into range if it lands outside of 20km (if it is lucky enough not to get kited at that laughable speed that is, all the while taking fire from the enemy) and then has to deal with tracking issues on top of that all for a minimal increase in damage over pulse operating at 20km with none of those issues. Don't get me started on active tanking blasterboats.
Fix the ships inability to operate at their intended ranges. End of.
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London
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.03 06:25:00 -
[194]
We need to keep this on the front page.
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Frug
Omega Wing
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Posted - 2010.10.03 06:35:00 -
[195]
Posting to say I agree with the OP and that he's one of the few people with a competent opinion in these forums.
The weapons system is fine, the ships could use some minor tweaks. They need them pretty badly, but they don't need to be extreme. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor |
Hentes Zsemle
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Posted - 2010.10.03 08:25:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Frug Posting to say I agree with the OP and that he's one of the few people with a competent opinion in these forums.
The weapons system is fine, the ships could use some minor tweaks. They need them pretty badly, but they don't need to be extreme.
The ships which could use "minor tweaks" then are all gallente gunboats and half of the caldari ships, since they should be able to use blasters effectively aswell.
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Frug
Omega Wing
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Posted - 2010.10.03 08:57:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Frug on 03/10/2010 09:02:40
Originally by: Hentes Zsemle
Originally by: Frug Posting to say I agree with the OP and that he's one of the few people with a competent opinion in these forums.
The weapons system is fine, the ships could use some minor tweaks. They need them pretty badly, but they don't need to be extreme.
The ships which could use "minor tweaks" then are all gallente gunboats and half of the caldari ships, since they should be able to use blasters effectively aswell.
Caldari have one battleship which uses blasters reasonably effectively (actually it's pretty good) and one hac that probably should use rails most of the time (or should never be flown most of the time because it kinda sucks). Feroxes don't count because for a lolship they're ok, can fit either blasters or autocannons or probably lasers and still be fun to fly. Blarpys are not bad (as far as AF's go). So no, I don't agree.
And just a hint, if you think literally all gallente ships need help, or if you think gallente actually have a ton of ships that rely primarily on guns (domis? nope. ishtars? nope. Recons? nope. inties? they're inties and fine. Myrms? nope. Brutixes? I guess) then you're bad at this game or are just babbling.
Also if you put "minor tweaks" in quotes because you think they need more than just minor tweaking to be competitive, you're bad at this game.
The race looks right now, tbh, to be the least desirable race to fly, but it's nothing horrible. They just lack something with a nice oomph, which the mega (or hypes) are supposed to be. And diemosts could suck less. Tweak those two (or three) ships, probably by making both of them lighter, and the race is good to go. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor |
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.03 10:35:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Frug And just a hint, if you think literally all gallente ships need help, or if you think gallente actually have a ton of ships that rely primarily on guns (domis? nope. ishtars? nope. Recons? nope. inties? they're inties and fine. Myrms? nope. Brutixes? I guess) then you're bad at this game or are just babbling.
the ships that need said tweaks, in conjunction with said blaster fixes (granted it is mostly a fix for medium and large) is pretty much every turret wielding cruiser, BC and battleship from both caldari and gallente side, ferox aside that is.
thorax has been in the shadow for some time, but it isn't that bad in truth, but could use some nudge. the rest however.... truth to be told, blasters actually suffer more in the medium size than large. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.03 10:37:00 -
[199]
The Taranis is the saving grace of blasters, really.
Thankfully, Small Hybrid Turret and Small Blaster Specialization are relatively quick to train, though only the most hardcore will train SBS to Lv 5.
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Hentes Zsemle
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Posted - 2010.10.03 11:25:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Hentes Zsemle
Originally by: Frug Posting to say I agree with the OP and that he's one of the few people with a competent opinion in these forums.
The weapons system is fine, the ships could use some minor tweaks. They need them pretty badly, but they don't need to be extreme.
The ships which could use "minor tweaks" then are all gallente gunboats and half of the caldari ships, since they should be able to use blasters effectively aswell.
read before posting kthx
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Bibosikus
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.10.03 12:42:00 -
[201]
Leave the ships and their bonuses alone. Leave hybrids' base specifications alone.
IMHO the simplest way to deal with blasters is to change the ammo types and specs.
Just for (eg.) medium blasters there are nearly 60 different ammo types. This is just silly. Especially given that the 6 faction ammo types have only 3 different specs. All they do is clutter up the market. Very, very few players have the inclination to feed their large neutron blasters with Dread Guristas Thorium L at 28k a round, ffs...
I say, split all Hybrid charges into two groups, one each for rails and blasters. Reduce the charge types to maybe 5 each instead of 8, and adjust the specs to best suit the gun types. Retain the T2 ammo types as is, and buff them to make Specialization skills really worth training even up to lvl 5 - maybe give us a kin/therm AND an exp/em charge for T2's as well...
"To pod one's alt while drinking port, is considered rather slapdash dear boy.." |
JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.10.03 13:20:00 -
[202]
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 03/10/2010 13:21:21
Originally by: Bibosikus Leave the ships and their bonuses alone.
No , why do you think plenty of people fly shield buffered hyperions and brutixes instead of active armor tanked ( and just waste ships bonus by dooing so ).
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Bibosikus
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.10.03 14:57:00 -
[203]
I was referring to ship bonuses in the context of the OP's post. Fiddling with them to buff blasters isn't the answer, is what I was saying - mostly because ship bonuses refer to "hybrids", not just blasters. And this post is specifically about blasters.
Playing with rigs or mods isn't the answer.
Cleaning up the stupid amount of hybrid charges and giving them clearly separated specs for different play styles and techniques seems to me to be the simplest and most effective way forward. It offers the opportunity for proper addressing of both types of hybrid gun (and let's face it - rails are just pathetic).
"To pod one's alt while drinking port, is considered rather slapdash dear boy.." |
Hentes Zsemle
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Posted - 2010.10.04 07:25:00 -
[204]
The other weapons have this many kind of charges aswell. T2 ammo overhaul is long due to all weapon systems anyways (mind the shortrange variations), so that could work, but even then hybrids would need a little adjustment.
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Jacob Flint
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:06:00 -
[205]
Let's bring it back up again! I'd really like to read some words by ccp about that issue...even if it's just something like "we heard you people!" or even better "we're working on it!"
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Hentes Zsemle
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Posted - 2010.10.07 06:26:00 -
[206]
bump
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Hannibal Ord
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.10.07 07:55:00 -
[207]
Make the blaster lineup of ships much faster and possibly more agile.
Thorax, Diemos, Brutix, Astarte, Catalyst and Megathron. Make them quicker so they can close in range. For example, Thorax loses the stupid MWD cap bonus for MWD speed. Even if they aren't as agile, make them quick in a straight line to catch things.
If I Brutix was almost as fast as a Hurricane, people would fear them. And not only that, it would not require much changes to blasters themselves.
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Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.07 08:15:00 -
[208]
Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 07/10/2010 08:24:17 Need Blaster fix ? Just one thing you need, nerf overpowered Scorch ammo for Amarrs, and the all gun systems will rebalanced.
With Large Weapon Systems on BSs wich haven't range bonuses:
"Null bonuses 25% to optimal, maybe the end result +3km bonus because shortest range from all guns + 25% useless falloff add + 3km. Sum: 26km
Barrage 50%+ to falloff maybe the end result +12km bonus. Sum: 27km
Scorch 50%+ to optimal maybe the end result +15km bonus Sum: 45km (optimal is the best, no crappy missed shooting)"
Change Scorch bonus to 12,5% optimal and 37,5% falloff. The sum result will be: 37,5 optimal instead 45km because ridiculous now the Scorch range on a Abaddon. 45km+10km. Just check ships of the other faction, how underranged from Amarrs and give them 10 sec reload time such as other gun types.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.07 08:19:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit Need Blaster fix ? Just one thing you need, nerf overpowered Scorch ammo for Amarrs, and the weapon will rebalanced.
"Null bonuses 25% to optimal, maybe the end result +3km bonus because shortest range from all guns + 25% useless falloff add + 3km. Sum: 26km
Barrage 50%+ to falloff maybe the end result +12km bonus. Sum: 27km
Scorch 50%+ to optimal maybe the end result +15km bonus Sum: 45km (optimal is the best, no crappy missed shooting)"
Change Scorch bonus to 12,5% optimal and 37,5% falloff. The sum result will be: 37,5 optimal instead 45km because ridicuolus now the Scorch range on a Abaddon. 45km+10km. Just check ships of the other faction, how underranged from Amarrs.
no.
that only fixes T2 ammo, while we would still be sitting on the very same problems on all the other ammos, where you get just a tiny damage advantage by sacrificing too much. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.07 08:37:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit Need Blaster fix ? Just one thing you need, nerf overpowered Scorch ammo for Amarrs, and the weapon will rebalanced.
"Null bonuses 25% to optimal, maybe the end result +3km bonus because shortest range from all guns + 25% useless falloff add + 3km. Sum: 26km
Barrage 50%+ to falloff maybe the end result +12km bonus. Sum: 27km
Scorch 50%+ to optimal maybe the end result +15km bonus Sum: 45km (optimal is the best, no crappy missed shooting)"
Change Scorch bonus to 12,5% optimal and 37,5% falloff. The sum result will be: 37,5 optimal instead 45km because ridicuolus now the Scorch range on a Abaddon. 45km+10km. Just check ships of the other faction, how underranged from Amarrs.
no.
that only fixes T2 ammo, while we would still be sitting on the very same problems on all the other ammos, where you get just a tiny damage advantage by sacrificing too much.
But yes... Because this is why underpowered the blaster int far range. When the battles going in short range the blaster the most puwerfull weapon from all gun system.
Not need more optimal and falloff with short range ammos, just need change the other ships ridiculous range advance.
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