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Enemy Stealth Bombers in a mining system. A becomming curse.

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kasiloth	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:13:00 - [1] First of all i appologize to u for my English but if i say what i want to say in my language nobody could understand me. What i want to say here is that the tactic of an enemy to send a stealth bomber in a system staying there afk for hrs preventing local miners or raters to work is becoming a curse with a high risk to ruin the entire game. Hoppless miners have to warp back to their pos in system to protect their ships and stay there watching despareted at the local till red or neut will go. This tactic drops the developement indices of the system rapidly make it easier for the enemy to conquer it. The defenders can do absolutely nothing to avoid this situation that is realy frastrated. They cannot track down the stealth bomber and kill him. And also they dont know if he is afk or not to send out bites to uncover him. It is a silly and sick situation. I can understand that stealth bombers are there to be used. But not that way. I can understand their right to jump into a system and kill as many macks or hulks they can kill. But to stay afk cloaked for hrs into a system that is another thing.It is not fair at all for the owner of the stealth bomber to use another alt of his to enjoy the game whilist the rest of the miners players sitting for hrs or maybe for days in their pos doing absolutely nothing. CCp must do something on that before players start leaving the game for good. I dont like to complain without a proposal, i would suggest CCp to deactivate cloacking device after a period of inactivity of lets say 30-60 min. So defenders could scan and chase the intruder. If anyone of u has the same problem and has something better to propose please do it here. Thank you *Kasiloth is an alt of mine for obvious reasons
Barakkus Caelestis Iudicium	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:22:00 - [2] Make cloaks take cap to run, make it so that to keep up with the cloak for more than 10 minutes of cloaking requires a really stupid fit.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:23:00 - [3] Originally by: kasiloth I can understand that stealth bombers are there to be used. But not that way. Really? Sounds like exactly the right way to use a stealth bomberà Quote: CCp must do something on that before players start leaving the game for good. So why would they change anything? What do you have that suggest that people would start doing this? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Lord XSiV Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:26:00 - [4] You asked for a better proposal, so here is one: Quit the game - I don't need your stuff so give it to some other person more deserving of you. Alternatively, you can adapt. CCP creates the sandbox, you provide the content and the rest of us get great lulz for smacking carebears who think it is their right to play Eve likes it's farmville.... And no, the subscriber base won't ever decline because of this. Carebears have notoriously threatened to quit over the years and as has been proven time and time again, their threats are complete fail.
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:29:00 - [5] Area and supply denial is the one of the original purposes of submarine warfare.
The Snatch	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:34:00 - [6] Edited by: The Snatch on 29/09/2010 22:35:59 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: kasiloth I can understand that stealth bombers are there to be used. But not that way. Really? Sounds like exactly the right way to use a stealth bomberà Quote: CCp must do something on that before players start leaving the game for good. So why would they change anything? What do you have that suggest that people would start doing this? I thought sb are for attack not to take a nap afk in a system. If a stealth bomber isnt able to get an easy kill then he better leave the system or fly a mackinaw.
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:37:00 - [7] So the enemy sends one military unit into a farming system to scare away the peasants so they can not make ISK for their lord. The peasanst are too weak to defend themselves and the lord does not care about them. Sounds like a very economic use of military resources in my book. Quote: The defenders can do absolutely nothing to avoid this situation That's a filthy lie.
kasiloth	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:45:00 - [8] Originally by: Lord XSiV You asked for a better proposal, so here is one: Quit the game - I don't need your stuff so give it to some other person more deserving of you. Alternatively, you can adapt. CCP creates the sandbox, you provide the content and the rest of us get great lulz for smacking carebears who think it is their right to play Eve likes it's farmville.... And no, the subscriber base won't ever decline because of this. Carebears have notoriously threatened to quit over the years and as has been proven time and time again, their threats are complete fail. Nice try man but im not a carebear. I live in o.o space far more than u been able to play this game. I got a ten accounts mining fleet and i have lost alot of ships by red attacks. I can copy with that. But having an idiot afk and cloaked in system evry day for hrs thats another thing to deal with. I cant change the situation a bit and ofc i cant change corps or Alliance because of this, every day. Propably u havent faced a situation like this yet cause if u had u should come with a better proposal
kasiloth	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:51:00 - [9] Originally by: Nika Dekaia So the enemy sends one military unit into a farming system to scare away the peasants so they can not make ISK for their lord. The peasanst are too weak to defend themselves and the lord does not care about them. Sounds like a very economic use of military resources in my book. Quote: The defenders can do absolutely nothing to avoid this situation That's a filthy lie. How supposed u will solve a situation like this? which way the defenders can truck down a cloaked afk enemy and kill him in their system ? do u have any suggestions instead of critisize it?
Cailais Amarr Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:55:00 - [10] How about mining with escorts? C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
ShahFluffers Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:57:00 - [11] Problem: You are afraid that your mining operation will be soloed by ONE fragile frigate. Solution: Have a fast-locking, long range, sniper ship sitting in the middle of the mining operation. If the SB pilot is smart, he/she will see the sebo graphics coming off the ship and leave you alone. Originally by: kasiloth Nice try man but im not a carebear. I live in o.o space far more than u been able to play this game. I got a ten accounts mining fleet and i have lost alot of ships by red attacks. I can copy with that. But having an idiot afk and cloaked in system evry day for hrs thats another thing to deal with. I cant change the situation a bit and ofc i cant change corps or Alliance because of this, every day. Propably u havent faced a situation like this yet cause if u had u should come with a better proposal Newflash: having more accounts than all of us combined does not make you a better player and has no bearing to the "problem" you have outlined to us. In fact, I would say that it weakens you as a player since, if you are having trouble with one account, you can simply log on to a different one and avoid a problem rather than adapt to it. 0.0 is not safe and combat (be it direct or indirect) is never fair. Deal with it. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Alun Hughes Project Nemesis The 0rphanage	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:57:00 - [12] I know this is going to be confusing..but here goes Stealth bombers are PVP ships rite? They want to PVP your hulks? Try having a small response fleet of fast ships and have your miners in fleet. If you hulk is attacked you could warp said small gang to the victim before the die. ItÆs called defending yourself. Instead of wanting the game to change so you donÆt have to
kasiloth	Posted - 2010.09.29 22:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Emperor Cheney Area and supply denial is the one of the original purposes of submarine warfare. Yeah sure. but submarines are active not afk. And what they expect to kill when all ships are in pos? would u get out a ship of urs for mining when u see a red in local? So what is the point of submarine warfare? Submarine warfare has a meaning when they attack and destroy. If they intend to make a fear out of their presense and to base on that by sitting invisible in depth then ccp must give us some better scanners.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:00:00 - [14] Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 29/09/2010 23:04:43 What's funny is they probably think you use macros because you don't speak english fluently, and feel they're helping the community by harassing you. Bloody morons. My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
kasiloth	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:03:00 - [15] Originally by: Alun Hughes I know this is going to be confusing..but here goes Stealth bombers are PVP ships rite? They want to PVP your hulks? Try having a small response fleet of fast ships and have your miners in fleet. If you hulk is attacked you could warp said small gang to the victim before the die. ItÆs called defending yourself. Instead of wanting the game to change so you donÆt have to We did it but it didnt work. Cause the sb was afk. and u cannot have a response fleet watching at u all the day. It doesnt happen for a couple of hrs. It does for hrs every day.
ShahFluffers Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:05:00 - [16] Originally by: kasiloth Yeah sure. but submarines are active not afk. And what they expect to kill when all ships are in pos? would u get out a ship of urs for mining when u see a red in local? So what is the point of submarine warfare? Submarine warfare has a meaning when they attack and destroy. If they intend to make a fear out of their presense and to base on that by sitting invisible in depth then ccp must give us some better scanners. Bear in mind that in RL submarine warfare there is no "instant" local to spot your enemies with... so you will never know if a sub is there or not. All you have is the thought that it MIGHT be there and it MIGHT attack and you MIGHT not be able to do anything about it. This is why high-value warships and supply ships do not move alone and have escorts. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
kasiloth	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Professor Tarantula Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 29/09/2010 23:04:43 What's funny is they probably think you use macros because you don't speak english fluently, and feel they're helping the community by harassing you. Bloody morons. Yeah.. yeah. Thank you man. You are very kind. I speak your languge even not so perfectly as u do, but i would like seeing u speaking my language . IMAO
Sully Tude	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:09:00 - [18] CCP, please just make a whole section for "afk cloaker whines," so the rest of us can promptly ignore it. plzkthx
Matalino	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:11:00 - [19] If the SB pilot is AFK, how is he supposed to stop you from mining?
kasiloth	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:22:00 - [20] Originally by: Matalino If the SB pilot is AFK, how is he supposed to stop you from mining? you cant say when he is afk or not and take the risk, but could someone be cloaked for hrs and for days in a system,without be afk for time to time?
El Liptonez	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:31:00 - [21] I guess the bomber can tank 50 Warriors too? And one bomb will kill all your hulks?
cragz Caldari Four-Q	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:32:00 - [22] Yo, What up with getting a friend, corpie or even an alt char in a cloaked drake or something to sit with you at the belt ?.
Kezzle	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:35:00 - [23] Originally by: kasiloth Originally by: Matalino If the SB pilot is AFK, how is he supposed to stop you from mining? you cant say when he is afk or not and take the risk, but could someone be cloaked for hrs and for days in a system,without be afk for time to time? So you can mine all the time, but not protect yourselves all the time. Are you some kind of macro-mining sock puppet? If you can't source the combat talent in your own corp, hire some. I'm sure there are merc outfits out there who can provide 24 hour coverage against this type of threat. For a price.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:36:00 - [24] Man up, get some balls, stop whining and IGNORE THE GUY unless he attacks you. You're basically complaining your "early warning system" that is called "LOCAL" is not working properly ? TOUGH LUCK, BUBBA, A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT IT GONE FOR GOOD ! Local, that is. In which case, you would have the "imgwtfbbq AFK cloaker alert maybe or waaah waaah I wanna go home" syndrome in an otherwise empty system too. When he doesn't attack you, you have no reason to be worried about him. When he attacks you, he's not AFK. Being worried about anything else is just plain ole' simple cowardice. We don't have a cure for that. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Jennifer Drama	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:39:00 - [25] Or maybe you could go to the system next door? If he follows, then he's not AFK and doing exactly what's intended in this game. Set up a small camp on the other side to catch him when he does. If he doesn't, well the answer is self explanatory, continue on with your activities. Or, get an alt or friend to sit in the belt with you (you did say you have defenders right?) Sounds more like you want to AFK mine in dangerous space without a care in the world(in other words, not actually play the game but still make ISK). In short, you're a tosser. HTFU.
Zan Shiro	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:40:00 - [26] Originally by: Professor Tarantula Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 29/09/2010 23:04:43 What's funny is they probably think you use macros because you don't speak english fluently, and feel they're helping the community by harassing you. Bloody morons. No...in 0.0 they fight wars at many levels. One is economic. Cloakies shut down ratting and mining operations (if you let them). Player makes no money to keep up fleet losses, corp gets no tax money from refine tax and bounties. This game is not like pvp in warhammer and wow. Ship blows up its gone (and your killers are scooping up your loot). Insurance may cover most of the ship, get up to bs level and looking at 45 mill alone just for new rigs, add on moar isk for modules. Hurt the abiltity of the enemy to buy new ships to come back to the fight...makes battles and war in time much easier to win.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.09.29 23:52:00 - [27] Originally by: kasiloth Nice try man but im not a carebear. I got a ten accounts mining fleet and i have lost alot of ships by red attacks. I can copy with that. But having an idiot afk and cloaked in system evry day for hrs thats another thing to deal with. Hmmm... Me thinks there is a Lie up there! I am gonna with care bear. I you want to mine in a system do it in a Coveter. If you want to rat do it in a nice cheap drake with a point! Now stop whinning on the Forums and bait that thing or something! -- Fine Mag's no Purple ok! But I am the Snyper Queen!
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.09.30 00:04:00 - [28] If these big serious alliances you speak of want to disrupt a system they should have to put some actual effort into it. The only way to counter this behavior is to pay someone to watch the mining op for hours on end, when even the miners themselves don't stare at the beams every second. It's like many things in this game: far too easy to do to someone, and far too costly to counter. It's essentially like being stalked. You know they're around somewhere, waiting, maybe watching you at that very moment. Or maybe they never check the belts, and it's all in your head. But are you going to risk taking the chance? No one should have to deal with that crap 24/7, and if technology advanced in this game like it does in RL people would have developed something to counter it by now. For the record i've never had to deal with someone always being cloaked in a 0.0 system i'm trying to mine in, simply because i don't mine in 0.0, but i can still see how lame it is to have such a thing in a game. My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Forluhn Amarr Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.09.30 00:05:00 - [29] I've always thought that Carriers should be able to fit a EMP type module that can decloak and disable electronics for like 30 seconds anything within say 10 Au's or something like that. All your base are belong to Amarr
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.09.30 00:08:00 - [30] I think perfect stealth is silly. I would love to see some form of System improvement that could be placed with the right sov level that allows combat probes a slim chance of detection. The issue really isn't mining or not, it is perfect stealth. In this way, you could force alliances to invest in their mineral hubs, etc. just my 2 isk =============================== \|\| Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals. \|\| ===============================
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.09.30 00:11:00 - [31] Cloaking my snipe ruining your minning OP! -- Fine Mag's no Purple ok! But I am the Snyper Queen!
kasiloth	Posted - 2010.09.30 00:24:00 - [32] Originally by: Alara IonStorm Cloaking my snipe ruining your minning OP! I thought u didnt fly a sniper LOL http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1380762&page=2#31
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.09.30 00:36:00 - [33] Originally by: kasiloth I thought u didnt fly a sniper LOL Not yet but if my page sniping record says anything I would rule all of EVE! So I don't fly them to be fair to non sniper pr0s! -- Fine Mag's no Purple ok! But I am the Snyper Queen!
Captain Torgo The Geedunk Expedition	Posted - 2010.09.30 00:43:00 - [34] Are you seriously suggesting an AFK player is such a frightening thing that it brings your corporation to its knees? Really? Then your corp doesn't deserve to live in low or null sec. What's next? Will you cry in fear over rotating asteroids as well?
Novemb3r Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.09.30 01:11:00 - [35] Here's a hot tip. If he's AFK then he's not going to shoot at you anyway, and if he's not AFK then he's playing. Either way it doesn't stop you doing anything. -
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2010.09.30 01:15:00 - [36] To the OP: Yes there should be a counter to so-called AFK cloakers (even if it is nerf local ). But there isn't. So you have to adapt. -Do like another poster said, move next door and see if he follows. -Set traps. -If he uses the same bombs all the while overtank for that damage type. -Is there a pattern to his attack timings? He has gotta sleep sometime and also may have to work. -Mine grav sites - he has to scan u down for those and combat probes give u warning. -Check the character bazaar/killboards etc, see if he has been purchased or if you can find out whos alt it is (if it is even an alt). -Talk to the guy after an attack, when he is full of himself. He might let something slip. Stay calm tho or you will only encourage him. -Make your own AFK cloaker alt and put it in their system. Fight fire with fire. -Anchor bubbles/cans/drones near your op to uncloak him and/or to block alignment to celestials. Works especially well with an instalock sniper. -Split up so the bomb gets one of you not all of you. -Go mine/live in a wormhole. Better ore/no belts/no local makes his job much harder. -Run lvl 4s in empire. Better pay than mining and no afk cloakers.
Exlegion Caldari Salva Veritate	Posted - 2010.09.30 01:32:00 - [37] Originally by: Akita T Man up, get some balls, stop whining and IGNORE THE GUY unless he attacks you. You're basically complaining your "early warning system" that is called "LOCAL" is not working properly ? TOUGH LUCK, BUBBA, A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT IT GONE FOR GOOD ! Local, that is. In which case, you would have the "imgwtfbbq AFK cloaker alert maybe or waaah waaah I wanna go home" syndrome in an otherwise empty system too. When he doesn't attack you, you have no reason to be worried about him. When he attacks you, he's not AFK. Being worried about anything else is just plain ole' simple cowardice. We don't have a cure for that. Logical fallacy. "Don't worry if he's AFK because he won't hurt you. Unless he's not AFK. Then you need to worry." Can anyone at all point out the flaw in this argument? Or is it just obvious to me? One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2010.09.30 01:45:00 - [38] Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 30/09/2010 01:45:58 So much complaining about lone AFK cloaking. But really, the only reason the AFK cloaker is even a threat is because the complainers are lone AFK mining.
Bella Yar	Posted - 2010.09.30 02:00:00 - [39] Originally by: kasiloth Nice try man but im not a carebear. I live in o.o space far more than u been able to play this game. I got a ten accounts mining fleet and i have lost alot of ships by red attacks. lolololololololololololololol
Nikolai Kondratiev Jita's Secure Credit and Assets Management	Posted - 2010.09.30 02:03:00 - [40] Originally by: Forluhn I've always thought that Carriers should be able to fit a EMP type module that can decloak and disable electronics for like 30 seconds anything within say 10 Au's or something like that. Make it a system-wide EMP that disables cloaking for a few minutes, that also prevents the carrier from warping/cyno'ing for the duration of cloak shutdown (and also prevents to activate triage) and that's one hell of a great idea __ Mining Crystals BPOs
Zan Shiro	Posted - 2010.09.30 02:15:00 - [41] Originally by: Novemb3r Here's a hot tip. If he's AFK then he's not going to shoot at you anyway, and if he's not AFK then he's playing. Either way it doesn't stop you doing anything. this, worst case scenario the cloaky you fear is in a damn covert ops. have had squaters/macro's/wh'er day trippers fear my buzzard of death. Was just out bm'ing and getting scanning practice. Someone wants to provide entertainment running around like a chicken with its head cut off...makes it worth while to hang around a bit. Or you get the smart ratter...knows intel is not showing signs of a black ops gang, knows his tank good enough for 1 bomb and torp salvo (in case its a sb)....he stays. Move on to find some better systems in that case cause not entertaining. Morale of the story, if you feed a stray dog, he is gonna stay around. don't feed them entertainemnt or easy kills (group up prevents this) and they go away.
Tian Shasair	Posted - 2010.09.30 02:19:00 - [42] Surely one SB isn't going to take out a whole mining fleet? I don't have any real experience with bombs (or 0.0, just sorta thinking aloud), but as far as torp's go he can only attack one at a time right? Plus he'd have to have you pointed for that time... if he's close enough for that he's well within drone range (wouldn't you already have drones out and on "aggro"). So what's to stop you warping out when he attacks? If he does launch a bomb, can you get out before it hits?
Talaan Stardrifter Universal Exports	Posted - 2010.09.30 03:39:00 - [43] Edited by: Talaan Stardrifter on 30/09/2010 03:40:37 Originally by: Exlegion Originally by: Akita T Man up, get some balls, stop whining and IGNORE THE GUY unless he attacks you. You're basically complaining your "early warning system" that is called "LOCAL" is not working properly ? TOUGH LUCK, BUBBA, A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT IT GONE FOR GOOD ! Local, that is. In which case, you would have the "imgwtfbbq AFK cloaker alert maybe or waaah waaah I wanna go home" syndrome in an otherwise empty system too. When he doesn't attack you, you have no reason to be worried about him. When he attacks you, he's not AFK. Being worried about anything else is just plain ole' simple cowardice. We don't have a cure for that. Logical fallacy. "Don't worry if he's AFK because he won't hurt you. Unless he's not AFK. Then you need to worry." Can anyone at all point out the flaw in this argument? Or is it just obvious to me? Here it is: If Cloaked AFK, then the threat is non-existant (or at least dormant). If Cloaked and Active, then system is working as intended. Also, obligatory Nerf Local! comment. Due to Local being omniscient, Cloakers are able to project a high degree of psychological warfare, and the weak minded perish.
Cobalt Sixty Caldari Invictus Australis BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.09.30 03:50:00 - [44] Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 30/09/2010 03:51:18 Originally by: Talaan Stardrifter Due to Local being omniscient, Cloakers are able to project a high degree of psychological warfare, and the weak minded perish.
Xessej	Posted - 2010.09.30 04:05:00 - [45] Edited by: Xessej on 30/09/2010 04:06:49 Originally by: ShahFluffers Bear in mind that in RL submarine warfare there is no "instant" local to spot your enemies with... so you will never know if a sub is there or not. All you have is the thought that it MIGHT be there and it MIGHT attack and you MIGHT not be able to do anything about it. That may have been true a long time ago but in the mordern world ASW has gotten quite sophisticated. This is a huge failing of Eve right now. A cloaker is too safe. BTW the fast locking sniper is of no use against a good bomber pilot. He'll get 30km out from his main target, decloak, launch the bomb and align to warp out all in the same series of keystrokes. Even if the sniper gets the SB its a good trade for one or more Hulks.
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.09.30 04:36:00 - [46] Originally by: Xessej BTW the fast locking sniper is of no use against a good bomber pilot. He'll get 30km out from his main target, decloak, launch the bomb and align to warp out all in the same series of keystrokes. Even if the sniper gets the SB its a good trade for one or more Hulks. This is more troubling than the bombers ability to cloak. If you think he's AFK, move systems. If he follows, he's not AFK. At that point, you need an escort to defend yourself. If SBs can attack with total impunity ("IF"), then I'd say there is an issue as there should always be a counter. But complaining about someone being in your system, cloaked, possibly AFK ... HTFU and deal.
Epegi Givo Amarr Department of Redundancy Dpt.	Posted - 2010.09.30 04:38:00 - [47] AFK cloaking explained I did not make this. __________________________ My other alt is A Ferrari
BeanBagKing Terra Incognita Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.30 04:45:00 - [48] Said this before, but the issue crops up often enough that I might as well say it again here. There is nothing wrong with cloaks. Cloaking modules cloak a ship... there's nothing more to be said here. They do not need to require cap (although realistically they probably should, but internet submarines isn't realistic), they do not need fuel, they do not need a timer. Cloaks are fine... HOWEVER! (and here's the big but that I'll get flamed for by someone I'm sure). AFK cloakers are not, at least not with me... The problem is that most people who do this are all AFK. I would have no problem with the current mechanics if I knew they were all in front of their computer, but something smells wrong to me when it becomes a strategy to log in, click a module, and go to work/school/sleep.... For one, I just don't feel it's the way the game should be played, maybe that's just me, feel free to disagree, but it's just as bad as a macro IMO. You log in, click a button and walk away. Second, there is no risk to doing this. One of the things I love about Eve is the risk, if you are undocked -anywhere- you are at risk, in a 1.0 surrounded by concord, you are at risk, inside POS shields you are still at risk. But throw a cloak on and you can wonder away from your computer for hours on end in the most dangerous red filled 0.0 system without the slightest worry. Just doesn't seem right. It's not the threat, I lived in them for several months and developed tactics to deal with those in there that I couldn't see. But the whole "no possible way to touch me" thing though just seems like it's against the principle of Eve, sure, that means I could use it too, but honestly, I'd rather have a way to find my stealth bomber and enjoy some risk... call me crazy, but that's why I like Eve. As for ways to fix this, only one way I've been able to think of that both leaves the cloak alone as far as being nearly invincible (so don't start crying, there would be no change to the cloak), but gives the attacker the advantage if you wonder away to catch a movie. New scan probes with a 15 minute or so scan cycle time that detect covert ships. You launch them and press scan and it takes 15 minutes before it finishes and shows you cloaked signatures. You can still be cloaked and wonder away for short times for a bio or whatever, as long as you aren't AFK. If you are there, you have 15 whole minutes to see these cloaking-detector-probes on your scanner and change your safe spot so it'll "disrupt the scan" or whatever and you won't show up. Cloaks are still nearly invincible, change your safespot every 10 minutes and nobody can ever touch you, I don't see how someone can complain about that. However, you can no longer just wonder off for a 3 day weekend and leave your covert-ops ship idling 300 off a gate. Seems fair to me no?
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.09.30 04:47:00 - [49] It's simple... 0.0 is not meant for carebears to mine without escort... if you want to mine without stealth bombers bothering you, go to hisec and deal with suicide gankers instead. I can't believe someone is complaining about being hunted in 0.0... I mean... WTF do you think happens in wormholes? People go mine there without escorts? (If you do, you're stupid and asking to die). Just use one of your 10 accounts as a combat ship fitted to kill that ship type quickly... SB will stay away... -G
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.09.30 04:51:00 - [50] Originally by: Brannor McThife I can't believe someone is complaining about being hunted in 0.0... Seems to me the problem is they would like to be able to hunt this person, and the game isn't allowing it. My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.09.30 05:30:00 - [51] Edited by: Akita T on 30/09/2010 05:32:50 Originally by: Exlegion Logical fallacy. "Don't worry if he's AFK because he won't hurt you. Unless he's not AFK. Then you need to worry." Can anyone at all point out the flaw in this argument? Or is it just obvious to me? There's no flaw in that argument, and it's not a fallacy. He's either really AFK most of the time, in which case he can't hurt you at all, just scare you if you let him... or he's not AFK much and CAN therefore hurt you, but that's intended gameplay behaviour. It becomes a case of how often does he attack, how many does he manage to kill, and what average daily destruction actual ISK losses are. If those losses are usually noticeably smaller than the potentially lost income because everybody is scared pantsless to go out and do their thing... who's the stupid party in that scenario ? The only reason you even KNOW a "potentially AFK cloaker" is there is because of "local", which was never intended to become THE intel tool, but CCP is feeling wishy-washy about wiping it out altogether since they don't have any reasonable effort-based replacement intel tool ready, and they lack the balls to just yank it out altogether thanks to people like the OP that already cream their pants in much less stressful situations. Local in delayed mode has already proven viable (to an extent anyway), since otherwise w-space would be completely empty... but it isn't. People living in w-space are in an even worse psychological situation - even if an AFK cloaker was online in their system, THEY COULD NOT KNOW there was one, so they get absolutely no warning whatsoever whenever an attack comes. And people still manage to get stuff done. In comparison, the OP and his so-called "dire situation" is an abject joke. Originally by: BeanBagKing HOWEVER! (and here's the big but that I'll get flamed for by someone I'm sure). AFK cloakers are not, at least not with me... The problem is that most people who do this are all AFK. I would have no problem with the current mechanics if I knew they were all in front of their computer, but something smells wrong to me when it becomes a strategy to log in, click a module, and go to work/school/sleep.... For one, I just don't feel it's the way the game should be played And that's exactly why LOCAL SHOULD BE REMOVED _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
BeanBagKing Terra Incognita Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.30 06:10:00 - [52] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: BeanBagKing HOWEVER! (and here's the big but that I'll get flamed for by someone I'm sure). AFK cloakers are not, at least not with me... The problem is that most people who do this are all AFK. I would have no problem with the current mechanics if I knew they were all in front of their computer, but something smells wrong to me when it becomes a strategy to log in, click a module, and go to work/school/sleep.... For one, I just don't feel it's the way the game should be played And that's exactly why LOCAL SHOULD BE REMOVED 2 issues I have with this... 1) To easy to automate, we've all seen Jita scripts that spam WTS Navy Raven contracts in local every 3 seconds. Just take one of those and make it say "I'm watching you..." Every 30 minutes or so. Now you can see the reds in local, clicking a button and going AFK remains a valid tactic. 2) Even if it removes it as a strategy, I still have an issue with someone being AFK and completely safe from any harm what-so-ever in a system filled with reds. This is based purely on principle, no matter if I know they are there or not. Now personally, I do like local the way it is, wormholes are all exciting and cut off feeling, it provides good contrast, but when I get back into k-space it's nice to look around and see who's in my system that I'm buddies with, and who I might want to start hunting down. I agree it has it's problems, removing it I think would go a long way towards removing some of the macros in the game. It may make things easier for lowsec pirates, but would would gimp some new player systems and defiantly put a hurt on 0.0 alliances. I've always thought a sov module which let you connect to CONCORD's network, allowing you to see local, would be an interesting twist, put it up or not, it's your choice, and it may be destroyed first if your home is sieged Maybe the lower your sec status, the longer you keep from being seen in lowsec only (takes 15 seconds to appear in local or something?) Anyway, I think there's balancing ideas and gameplay that can go there beyond simply removing it all together or putting it on delayed mode. But I don't think it's the solution to AFK cloakers (call me bias towards my own idea )
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.09.30 06:16:00 - [53] not this crap again. what's the mantra? adapt or die... do it. the dying part, please. aroo
Ironwomen	Posted - 2010.09.30 06:23:00 - [54] Originally by: ShahFluffers Bear in mind that in RL submarine warfare there is no "instant" local to spot your enemies with... so you will never know if a sub is there or not. All you have is the thought that it MIGHT be there and it MIGHT attack and you MIGHT not be able to do anything about it. This is why high-value warships and supply ships do not move alone and have escorts. Perfect ^^ Be happy you can see him in local, I hope he/she sees this thread lol then he/she is NEVER gona leave you alone lol. Sub's "play" afk, aka, not moving, running quite... as to not be seen... read... cloak. They very well may do nothing but reporting back movements. How do you know this SB is not doing the same?
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2010.09.30 06:28:00 - [55] Not to be pedantic but going with the submarine analogy. Even submarines can be "probed" down using sonar. The fact is cloaking is in a way the invincible and immune to attack button. It is not relevent if the pilot is AFK or not. Once you cloak you are safe. And since when was anything supposed to be safe in 0.0?
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.09.30 06:41:00 - [56] Originally by: Lillith Starfire Not to be pedantic but going with the submarine analogy. Even submarines can be "probed" down using sonar. The fact is cloaking is in a way the invincible and immune to attack button. It is not relevent if the pilot is AFK or not. Once you cloak you are safe. And since when was anything supposed to be safe in 0.0? it is 100% relevent if they are AFK or not. if they are AFK, then you're still safe; simply paranoid. and if they aren't AFK, you're then required to use normal tactics to retain your safety. if... after 5 YEARS... they make cloaks WORSE, then only the carebears win. p.s. you can't do ANYTHING but watch and warp when cloaked. i believe that fits in perfectly, and with relevence, to the Risk vs. Reward scenario we all know and love. if you stop what you are trying to do because of a name appearing in local, then you are playing the wrong game, or you are playing the game wrong. pick one, and either log in or cancel scrip. your choice. aroo
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2010.09.30 06:53:00 - [57] Originally by: flummox it is 100% relevent if they are AFK or not. if they are AFK, then you're still safe; simply paranoid. and if they aren't AFK, you're then required to use normal tactics to retain your safety. if... after 5 YEARS... they make cloaks WORSE, then only the carebears win. p.s. you can't do ANYTHING but watch and warp when cloaked. i believe that fits in perfectly, and with relevence, to the Risk vs. Reward scenario we all know and love. if you stop what you are trying to do because of a name appearing in local, then you are playing the wrong game, or you are playing the game wrong. pick one, and either log in or cancel scrip. your choice. Actually I agree there should not be safe activities in 0.0 such as mining. What I'm saying is the same should also apply to the cloaker. You say they can only gather intel? Isn't quite true but they can still do it without any threat at all. So it shouldn't be safe for miner or ratters but by the same token it shouldn't be safe for ANYONE. Cloak = safe.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.30 06:57:00 - [58] Originally by: Exlegion Originally by: Akita T Man up, get some balls, stop whining and IGNORE THE GUY unless he attacks you. You're basically complaining your "early warning system" that is called "LOCAL" is not working properly ? TOUGH LUCK, BUBBA, A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT IT GONE FOR GOOD ! Local, that is. In which case, you would have the "imgwtfbbq AFK cloaker alert maybe or waaah waaah I wanna go home" syndrome in an otherwise empty system too. When he doesn't attack you, you have no reason to be worried about him. When he attacks you, he's not AFK. Being worried about anything else is just plain ole' simple cowardice. We don't have a cure for that. Logical fallacy. "Don't worry if he's AFK because he won't hurt you. Unless he's not AFK. Then you need to worry." Can anyone at all point out the flaw in this argument? Or is it just obvious to me? It is one of the many variants of the prisoner dilemma. About the OP problem: if you manage 10 mining ships probably you use multiple screens and maybe multiple PC; mining in 0.0 you usually need a tanking ship to protect the miners from rats, fit it for a fast lock and long range alpha, set it up with its account always visible on one of the screens, assign all the drones to that ship. As soon as the attackers decloack target him and fire. You have good chances to kill him if he is in a SB. That way you will not even need to ask help from one or more of the corp PvPers. If you are managing 10 accounts at the same time without macros you probably are at the Pc all the time, not surfing the net or whatever, so it should work. As an alternative mine only in exploration sites.
Br41n Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2010.09.30 07:05:00 - [59] So he is away from his keyboard for hours, what exactly is the problem? he can't hurt you when he is AFK. And well plenty of counters to bombers, just start protecting your miners ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pinky: Gee, Brain. What are we going to do tonight? Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
cpu939 Gallente Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective	Posted - 2010.09.30 07:11:00 - [60] ok to the op, 1 - research your pest find his kills see if he has a set time he likes to play, is he killing his target in a set window make sure your you know when that is ask your corp/alliance if they see him and to note the time is he loging on after dt or is it later record this on your forums by getting this info you'll have a better idea when to bait him if you can always have the bait set up to run if you need the toilet don't think i'll only be 30 seconds, safe up set the bait again 2 - your part of a corp/alliance if there not helping you leave them find a new corp that works together. 3 if your mining in a hulk fit 5 ec 300's and 5 warrior t2's can't kill him change to the ec 300's jam his ship warp out be smart information is the key, afk cloakers don't target smart players they like easy, stupid and isk rich player that fit estamel's invul fields on hulks or fly paladin officer fitted with no way to kill a player in a frig. sorry thats not just afk cloaker but all pvper that like those players if he can't get kills and is lossing all the time, he will leave unless he is there to break your moral like goons and other alliance have used to win wars before they even invade the space how to tell if you kill him 3 times and more of his corp/alliance turn up then more likely they are there to break your moral. if he is just out for easy kills then he will move on. to the remove local people - atm this is a bad idea we have sceen this with wspace ccp had to change the dscan to a 2 sec delay now think about all the extra people that live in 0.0 dscan pressed -> information request sent to server -> information list created -> information sent to player. lets fix lag befor we add more work to the server 0101011 001101111 011011000 110000101110100 01101001011011000 1100101001000000 1001110011000010 11101000111010101 11001001100101
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.09.30 07:12:00 - [61] Unclocks in Rokh! -- Fine Mag's no Purple ok! But I am the Snyper Queen!
Jenny Hawk State War Academy	Posted - 2010.09.30 07:14:00 - [62] Originally by: Br41n So he is away from his keyboard for hours, what exactly is the problem? he can't hurt you when he is AFK. And well plenty of counters to bombers, just start protecting your miners If someone is afk and cloaked - how would you know it's a SB at all? And not just any cloak user? Would be a bit silly if you al dock for hours for an afk cloaked Jump Freighter!
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.09.30 07:16:00 - [63] Originally by: Jenny Hawk for an afk cloaked Jump Freighter! And which High slot are you gonna fit that cloak! -- Fine Mag's no Purple ok! But I am the Snyper Queen!
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.09.30 07:19:00 - [64] The perfect sollution for this would be... wait for it... ...to remove local! Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
Polly Prissypantz Dingleberry Appreciation Society	Posted - 2010.09.30 07:27:00 - [65] I've been on both sides of the coin in this... Wanting to carebear but being bugged by semi-AFK cloak-*s, and then in turn being a semi-AFK cloak-* in hostile space. It's a **ty tactic, but everyone does it. I wouldn't have a huge problem with some sort of timeout or fuel usage or whatever for cloaks. But, to the nubs that keep *ing about wanting to remove local: Until CCP fixes up the totally fked scanning system (hitting 'scan' every 2 seconds is not a gameplay feature), the removal of local is not feasible.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.09.30 07:31:00 - [66] I stopped playing about 2 years ago. Maybe a bit more. We had these exact same threads then, with much the warnings of impending doom and players quitting. It's a couple years later, and you lot aren't going anywhere. Don't try to say you are.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2010.09.30 07:48:00 - [67] Quote: What i want to say here is that the tactic of an enemy to send a stealth bomber in a system staying there afk for hrs preventing local miners or raters to work is becoming a curse with a high risk to ruin the entire game. I'll have to disagree. There is nothing preventing mining. The only thing that is preventing >you< from mining is the perception that danger is lurking. Having lived in a WH for about 4 months now I >always< have this potential danger. There is no local from which I can glean intelligence. I have to dscan constantly, >always< being on the look out. I envy nullsec/lowsec's local being used as intelligence. However, I do not sympathize with your problem. It sucks for you. Surely, it does. But there are hundreds if not thousands of players in WH's that cannot rely on local as you do. So, without much ado, HTFU!
MILK Monk Knights of the Silver Dawn Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.30 07:58:00 - [68] I have currently alt in your system, and he is active. Be careful! __________________________________ I do it myyyy wayyyy... Milky Way.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.30 08:03:00 - [69] Originally by: Xessej Edited by: Xessej on 30/09/2010 04:06:49 Originally by: ShahFluffers Bear in mind that in RL submarine warfare there is no "instant" local to spot your enemies with... so you will never know if a sub is there or not. All you have is the thought that it MIGHT be there and it MIGHT attack and you MIGHT not be able to do anything about it. That may have been true a long time ago but in the mordern world ASW has gotten quite sophisticated. This is a huge failing of Eve right now. A cloaker is too safe. Avoid RL analogies, they bite back. For example: remote recon with unmanned drones is the nor today, so why we don't have frigate size drones that will scout one or more gates ahead for us while we are safespotted/docked? Maybe even with some decent strength missile to fire against targets of opportunity? Very realistic, very bad for game reasons. About the "probe in 15 minutes" suggestion in some other post, I have moved BS in 0.0 and in some instance I had to spend an hour or more to move away from the gate under cloak to clear a bubblecamp. The campers weren't good enough to uncloack me with fast ships and drones swarm, so I was capable to avoid them. With that idea implemented any ship that suffer from reduced speed when under cloak will die if it get caught in a bubblecamp. Breaking one mechanic to fix another is not a good idea.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.09.30 08:21:00 - [70] It seems like a reasonable expectation that people in a pvp game are actually at their computer. I like the idea of the carrier decloak bomb that made the carrier fixed and warp inable ala a simple cyno field. It threatens the lazy afk approach while at the same time greatly enhancing higher quality pvp options by making a carrier present itself for attack . Lure a carrier out with a cloaker, black ops in on the carrier, and you've got a real kill.. not just a hulk or two. If a mining corp can field enough cap ships to be able to counter a that hot-drop.. they've earned their saftey.... and man I want to be in some of those fights on either side.... you want to be able to mine in peace... risk a carrier... I don't see anything care-bear about that.. ads to pvp while correcting a sort of slimy dynamic
Dr Sheepbringer Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.30 08:32:00 - [71] Just get a droneboat there and tell him/her to drop sentry drones around you (not in the blast radius tho...) and have him with sensor boosters. Then when the SB unloacks...hope he get's a lock on him and poof he's paper. It won't stop the bomb though, but it will probably get the bomber. Use bait ships and thus it costs them more. Originally by: CCP Shadow Dr. Sheepbringer -- It's not that kind of horn.
TheBlueMonkey Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.09.30 08:35:00 - [72] Is this like Jepardy? EEEGGGGGHHHHHHH What are mobile warp disruptors Seriously, It's one red You out number him Bombers are paper thin Bombers working as intended. -- Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.30 08:44:00 - [73] Edited by: Malcanis on 30/09/2010 08:46:06 Originally by: kasiloth Originally by: Nika Dekaia So the enemy sends one military unit into a farming system to scare away the peasants so they can not make ISK for their lord. The peasanst are too weak to defend themselves and the lord does not care about them. Sounds like a very economic use of military resources in my book. Quote: The defenders can do absolutely nothing to avoid this situation That's a filthy lie. How supposed u will solve a situation like this? which way the defenders can truck down a cloaked afk enemy and kill him in their system ? do u have any suggestions instead of critisize it? (1) Refit your hulk for tank. If you've been attacked by the stealth bomber already, you'll know which bomber is in, which in turn means you know what damage type he will do. Fit 2x shield hardeners of that type, and a damage control and an, I dunno, power diagnostic. Load up with 5x T2 light drones of the appropriate type to match his likely resist hole. (Acolytes if it's a Manticore, Warriors if it's a Nemesis, etc etc) (2) Have a buddy (or an alt) lurk by your seemingly inviting Hulk in a bomber of his own. He will need a 24Km point, a web and ideally a target painter. Manticores are great for this btw because they have 4x mids and lots of CPU. (3) As soon as the hostile bumber uncloaks and aggros on you, your buddy in the Manti uncloaks and tackles him. You start moving towards the bomber as best speed (this will mitigate torp damage quite a lot btw) (4) Assign your drones to your buddy, laugh as the hostile pops in few seconds. EDIT: The good thing about doing this is that after a while your buddy who flies the manticore doesn't even have to be active. He can be AFK and still deter. Ironic, no? You can do the same thing with other ships, eg: a cloaked dictor is equally ideal. The main point is that you'll have to actually DO something other when whine on the forums. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
andeira	Posted - 2010.09.30 08:56:00 - [74] you take away my cloak? I come in with my unprobable T3 and I can still be AFK for hours on end just as easy (ok it is possible to find a unprobable T3 but takes a lot of time) so do you then want CCP to nerf T3's as well so you can mine ------------- Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2010.09.30 09:06:00 - [75] Easy. Remove local from 0.0 Your problem is solved - you'll never know if there is a SB in local or not and it won't matter if he's afk. Now you've got real submarine warfare. Alternatively - have some of your mining pilots fly escorts - you say you can't have people escort your ships all day, yet you can mine all day - why not?
Miss Connolly Public Relations Corp	Posted - 2010.09.30 09:13:00 - [76] "I'm scared of a single Stealth Bomber in my system, CCP nerf them!" What an old and boring story. Solution: grow a pair, get sov and cyno jam the system and have a few PVPers guard your mining carebears. It's called 0.0 ___________________ "It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features." These are the people you are giving your money to.
Myz Toyou APOCALYPSE LEGION	Posted - 2010.09.30 10:03:00 - [77] Originally by: AFK Cloaker empty quoting
HairySack Hangin	Posted - 2010.09.30 10:13:00 - [78] Originally by: Emperor Cheney Area and supply denial is the one of the original purposes of submarine warfare. And the adaptation was to develop submarines to hunt submarines, and surface ships to hunt submarines, and airplanes to hunt submarines. CCP has refused, for years, to implement anything to counter AFK cloaking. Not even a single gimped piece of crap ship that can scan them down. Nadda. So, your use of real world analogies is FAIL.
pipvac Sacred Templars Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.30 10:19:00 - [79] I haven't read every single reply so bear with me. First - cloaks are absolutely fine as is. I don't believe the cloaks or the ships that use them need to be changed at all. Second - the submarine analogy is a very good one. The ability of a stealthy attack vessel to cut or hamper supply lines, whilst psychologically imposing fear on civilian and military traffic simply by knowing they are there. Spot on. However, lets extend the analogy... To attack submarines typically had to aim their weapon by using their periscope or surfacing (de-cloaking) which left them vulnerable to attack. They could quickly dive to hide (re-cloak). Then those who were targetted developed two key tools:- 1) Depth charges - AoE weapons. If you knew roughly where the enemy was you could fire these weapons in the hope of causing damage or even sinking the target. They were notoriously inaccurate - but struck fear back into the hearts of submariners. They became lethal to the submarines when... 2) Sonar - underwater scanning was introduced. Again, not perfect. It could offer bearing, speed and heading, which helped get the AoE weapons closer to their potential target. Something which caused such horrendous losses to the German wolf packs in the Atlantic, and North Sea towards the end of WW2. 3) Air/diesel/battery charge - submarines could not stay submerged forever. Even today with the use of nuclear subs, the limiting factor is not the fuel for the submarine, but food for the brave men who operate in them. In other words there was an effective time limit to the period they could remain stealthy for, before they had to resupply. Perhaps this should be something CCP should consider going forward. The sandbox works because of the rock/paper/scissors nature of the tools they make available. Interpreting items 1, 2 and 3 would build on those tools. Just my view on a well trodden path of opinion. Desperately seeking originality since the first "can I have your stuff" since 2003.
Tub Chil	Posted - 2010.09.30 10:21:00 - [80] What exactly is a problem here? 1 bomber can do NOTHING to you, just scratch your shields... (wait you have some buffer right?) your hulks have drone bays, don't they? so when he decloaks to launch bomb/torpedoes on you just kill it, easy as that. do you even know that bombers have around 1400 EHP?
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.09.30 11:03:00 - [81] Originally by: Professor Tarantula If these big serious alliances you speak of want to disrupt a system they should have to put some actual effort into it. I agree that having a red visible in local is zero effort disruption. That's why we should remove local in 0.0. If only there was another area in the game where delayed local is implemented, we could learn from them how to deal with this issue. Welp, I've got nothing.
Exlegion Caldari Salva Veritate	Posted - 2010.09.30 11:12:00 - [82] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 30/09/2010 05:32:50 Originally by: Exlegion Logical fallacy. "Don't worry if he's AFK because he won't hurt you. Unless he's not AFK. Then you need to worry." Can anyone at all point out the flaw in this argument? Or is it just obvious to me? There's no flaw in that argument, and it's not a fallacy. He's either really AFK most of the time, in which case he can't hurt you at all, just scare you if you let him... or he's not AFK much and CAN therefore hurt you, but that's intended gameplay behaviour. It becomes a case of how often does he attack, how many does he manage to kill, and what average daily destruction actual ISK losses are. If those losses are usually noticeably smaller than the potentially lost income because everybody is scared pantsless to go out and do their thing... who's the stupid party in that scenario ? The only reason you even KNOW a "potentially AFK cloaker" is there is because of "local", which was never intended to become THE intel tool, but CCP is feeling wishy-washy about wiping it out altogether since they don't have any reasonable effort-based replacement intel tool ready, and they lack the balls to just yank it out altogether thanks to people like the OP that already cream their pants in much less stressful situations. Local in delayed mode has already proven viable (to an extent anyway), since otherwise w-space would be completely empty... but it isn't. People living in w-space are in an even worse psychological situation - even if an AFK cloaker was online in their system, THEY COULD NOT KNOW there was one, so they get absolutely no warning whatsoever whenever an attack comes. And people still manage to get stuff done. In comparison, the OP and his so-called "dire situation" is an abject joke. The problem with your argument is that it offers no content at all. It's like telling your 5-year-old there is no monster behind the closet door and he need not to worry. Unless there is a monster, in which case he needs to worry. It offers absolutely nothing. In the case of the AFK cloaker you cannot tell wether he's AFK or not and that is the problem. Telling someone not to worry about an AFK player is no advice at all because you simply don't know if he's AFK or not. The question that comes to mind is where is the risk to the cloaker(s)? I see the danger and risks to the miner but the cloaker has none. Is this really in the spirit of Eve? I see that the cloaker has a choice in attacking or not. But that is not a risk. It's another "perk" to being cloaked. No doubt this will turn into an argument of local versus no local. However, CCP has made it crystal clear that when local eventually goes it will be replaced by tool(s) that will aid in the form that local currently does. Of course, it will require skills. But whether these miners posess the necessary skills at the moment is irrelevant. You also compare WH space with known space and fail to mention that the two are just different. WH space is better "buffered" or protected by gates. Its accessibility is limited, while known space isn't. Entering a wormhole space doesn't necessarily give the cloaker the advantage of knowing for certain that someone is there. While in known space the residents are known beyond doubt to live there. The point is when local goes I don't think it will be what you think it will be. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
sue denim	Posted - 2010.09.30 11:17:00 - [83] Blame ccp for making it so popular in the first place ;p Why? anomalies :\| Sure there were some afore dominion but....
Marshall West	Posted - 2010.09.30 11:24:00 - [84] It annoys me when people say things like it what there designed to do its how the game is. I am a pvper i can fly cloaked ships and agree with the op something needs doing. Its been going a long time and people do pay there money to play the game how they want to play it. there is no reason for anyone to be in a system for 2 hours to 1 day afk in a cloaked ship. Arguments like what if i get disconnected and my cloak runs out or if i have to go see my dead grandma and need to sit cloaked in a system dont wash with me. The point is cloaks have no defence against. you say one bomber or one covert ops cant hurt you. well he sits there 3 hours afk comes back hulk or ratter in belt warps in light cyno mothership jumps in ganks his ass. I dont mine I pvp but even I can see the problems this is causing for people who pay as everyone else. Risks not a problem reds jump in and kill people thats cool. but to sit afk for ages in a system just to grief then thats well greifing and should have no place in a game. Easy solution make cloaks use cap it aint hard and if the guy isnt afk he can relcoak in 8 seconds not a big issue seems some of you make this a big issue. those who say how do you know hes afk. well its the same dudes who do it and we all know they have alts who do other stuff while they sit logged on. and i think most people against this idea are probably people who couldnt pvp if it hit them in the face instead have to annoy everyone else. This is goign to get worse as more people have motherships. It already started to get pretty common and only going to get worse to the point where the game will die.
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.09.30 11:38:00 - [85] Originally by: Marshall West Words I don't think it would be possible to write a better argument in favour of delayed local than Marshall West's posts.
Jeddeita Lead Farmers	Posted - 2010.09.30 11:38:00 - [86] Edited by: Jeddeita on 30/09/2010 11:42:05 Edited by: Jeddeita on 30/09/2010 11:39:19 Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Easy. Remove local from 0.0 Your problem is solved - you'll never know if there is a SB in local or not and it won't matter if he's afk. Now you've got real submarine warfare. Yes, remove it. Then we can have more fun sat in system randomly de-cloaking a SB fleet and popping you. Sounds like win to me Oh wait, you'll likely whine about that too. Edit: Indecently, then it'll be just like w-space regarding local and mining. Don't see people moaning about it there. ---------- EVEStuff.net - High Quality Corp & Alliance Web Hosting
Baron Agamemnon Caldari The Einherji	Posted - 2010.09.30 11:48:00 - [87] Originally by: kasiloth First of all i appologize to u for my English but if i say what i want to say in my language nobody could understand me. What i want to say here is that the tactic of an enemy to send a stealth bomber in a system staying there afk for hrs preventing local miners or raters to work is becoming a curse with a high risk to ruin the entire game. No. I used to camp a UK mining system once in my Manticore. I was supprised when UK started to dock their miners, really. Because killing a SB is very easy. So if a 0.0 alliance/corp can't handle this they have best get back to high sec. --- "And thus, another of the world's dreamers died, taking his dreams with him. Just as John Lennon wanted world peace, Gerald Bull simply wanted a gun big enough to fire **** into space."
Cyrus Doul Infinite Covenant	Posted - 2010.09.30 12:05:00 - [88] For all of you remove local people. I'll go along with that. If you give me some sort of sonar module that finds cloaked ships. You cant tell me that a IRL submarine is completely invisible when it raises to attack depth. Between sonar and a guy good at his job managing the depth charges you can not only find your invisible submarine but you can kill it too. Also for all you guys saying remove local. I would love to see it happen. Your roaming gangs would suck unless you are bringing a wing of buzzards with you to either speed warp the belts or dump probes out in all those systems >14.whatever au. You would be the first ones to *****. Not the industrial. Even the battlefield has somewhat of a local, You know how many bad guys you see on the field. Stations are buildings, hills are your stargates as coming out from behind them dumps you in a single point much like Mr. Stargate Singularity and running behind them protects you from getting owned.
Aurora Aujii Gallente Genesis of Cosmic Grace	Posted - 2010.09.30 12:09:00 - [89] Sounds like the game needs a counter-cloak ship - maybe an electronics interceptor heavy cruiser class ship with the ability to fit a very cpu intensive sensor system. Give the ship superb on ship scanners that allow it to triangulate cloaked ships (note: this is a "cloaked" ship detector, and works by finding the cloaked ship's special signature - it cannot be used to also detect non-cloaked ship). Perhaps we could add this to the game with a simple addition of a new module for the strategic cruiser - Electronics Superiority: Unveil. A ship/module like this will ensure that cloaking has a counter. Aurora
Mexna	Posted - 2010.09.30 12:13:00 - [90] Originally by: kasiloth First of all i appologize to u for my English but if i say what i want to say in my language nobody could understand me. What i want to say here is that the tactic of an enemy to send a stealth bomber in a system staying there afk for hrs preventing local miners or raters to work is becoming a curse with a high risk to ruin the entire game. Hoppless miners have to warp back to their pos in system to protect their ships and stay there watching despareted at the local till red or neut will go. This tactic drops the developement indices of the system rapidly make it easier for the enemy to conquer it. The defenders can do absolutely nothing to avoid this situation that is realy frastrated. They cannot track down the stealth bomber and kill him. And also they dont know if he is afk or not to send out bites to uncover him. It is a silly and sick situation. I can understand that stealth bombers are there to be used. But not that way. I can understand their right to jump into a system and kill as many macks or hulks they can kill. But to stay afk cloaked for hrs into a system that is another thing.It is not fair at all for the owner of the stealth bomber to use another alt of his to enjoy the game whilist the rest of the miners players sitting for hrs or maybe for days in their pos doing absolutely nothing. CCp must do something on that before players start leaving the game for good. I dont like to complain without a proposal, i would suggest CCp to deactivate cloacking device after a period of inactivity of lets say 30-60 min. So defenders could scan and chase the intruder. If anyone of u has the same problem and has something better to propose please do it here. Thank you *Kasiloth is an alt of mine for obvious reasons Only thing that i can come to think of is to implement what is done in WOW automaticly log out the charecter when afk longer that a certain amount of time.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.09.30 12:15:00 - [91] Originally by: Exlegion The problem with your argument is that it offers no content at all. It's like telling your 5-year-old there is no monster behind the closet door and he need not to worry. Unless there is a monster, in which case he needs to worry. It offers absolutely nothing. In the case of the AFK cloaker you cannot tell wether he's AFK or not and that is the problem. Telling someone not to worry about an AFK player is no advice at all because you simply don't know if he's AFK or not. Except that they're not complaining about what you say they're complaining, and I'm not telling them what you imply that I'm saying. Their chief complaint is that while AFK, the enemy poses a threat. Which it obviously doesn't. He only poses a threat while NOT AFK. They claim they wouldn't really mind if the enemy was NOT AFK. Of course, when some measures are put in place to make it impossible to stay cloaked while AFK, they'll start complaining instead that there are AFK macro cloakers in their system. And so on and so forth with the chain of bullcrap. So the complaint is not really about AFK cloakers, but the inability to tell if somebody is AFK or not in your system. And I continue to argue that whoever is complaining about THAT is at best a friggin' spoiled brat, and they should instead thank whatever gods they believe in CCP hasn't bothered upgrading the scanning system so that they can finally remove local already, or just pulled it out altogether to make it act like in w-space. Quote: The question that comes to mind is where is the risk to the cloaker(s)? I see the danger and risks to the miner but the cloaker has none. Is this really in the spirit of Eve? I see that the cloaker has a choice in attacking or not. But that is not a risk. It's another "perk" to being cloaked. No doubt this will turn into an argument of local versus no local. However, CCP has made it crystal clear that when local eventually goes it will be replaced by tool(s) that will aid in the form that local currently does. Of course, it will require skills. But whether these miners posess the necessary skills at the moment is irrelevant. The whole argument is irrelevant, because it is NOT what the OP is complaining about. I'll be the first to admit though that the cloaking mechanics could use a bit of nerfing as far as off-grid scanning goes, but that's a completely different story. Also, BTW, occasionally, NPCs will spawn near a cloaked ship, decloaking it and attacking it, even if in the middle of nowhere. AFK cloaking actually IS dangerous too. Quote: You also compare WH space with known space and fail to mention that the two are just different. WH space is better "buffered" or protected by gates. Its accessibility is limited, while known space isn't. Entering a wormhole space doesn't necessarily give the cloaker the advantage of knowing for certain that someone is there. While in known space the residents are known beyond doubt to live there. The point is when local goes I don't think it will be what you think it will be. The "remove local now" thing is the most drastic possible hardline approach, thanks to the "we're not changing anything major in what already exists for a year and a half" implications debacle and the "enough with this junk already, just do it, and you can add the whistles later after excrement hits the propeller". The SANE approach would be to only remove local (either put it in delayed mode or change it forcefully to constellation chat, or both) after completely revamping the directional scanner and the probe scanning mechanics first. Maybe even add some other deployables into the mix, with the final result of anybody being able (eventually) to get not just similar, but much more detailed information compared to what the "old local" gave you... but at the cost of EFFORT (and optionally even assets), not completely free like now. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Doctor Mustaka Caldari Firebird Squadron Terra-Incognita	Posted - 2010.09.30 12:15:00 - [92] I think the argument people use to make cloakers somehow detectable after a period of time just rubbish. There are so many tactics that covops team employ that requires a long cloak and sometimes being in enemy space for weeks on end. 1. Watching Jump bridge traffic. 2. Killing haulers to interupt assets stockpiling. 3. Gathering intel on POS location and composition. 4. Bookmarking gates, pos locations, stations. 5. Market ninjaing the enemy. All of these are valid tactics that may mean I am in a system cloaked for a long time. You may think I am AFK but I am not. I may chose not to engage you because I do not want to risk my ship because I have been tasked with completing something more important. Like most other posters on these threads I will say to you there are hundreds of ways to counter a cloaked ship in your not meant to be safe 0.0 system. The funniest is a decent fit battle hulk solo mining bait setup. Even a best skilled bomber pilot cannot kill a hulk with 1 bomb alone. That means he has to engage with torps. Some decent drones and a point and he will be dead. Dont kill his pod though. Makes him go back slow boat. Makes it less likely he will come back your way. Or even better scram and web his pod and keep him there until next downtime. If your not willing to sacrifice a few mining lasers on your ten accounts to easily protect yourself you well and truly should pack up and head to HS. Or your corp should kick your ass out as you will be giving them a bad name.
Marshall West	Posted - 2010.09.30 12:25:00 - [93] sitting at a gate for hours watching haulers is fine doesnt mean you couldnt warp out every so often and reactivate the cloak and come back if your not afk you dont havea problem :). stop making silly excuses for you to have perma cloak. a good covert ops pilot would be at a safe spot off the gate anyway. but something needs balancing eve is about risk v reward and i can tell you very little risk to bomber pilot afking in a 0.0 system hunting miners or ratters. Covert ops bombbers or frigs can light cynos remeber that and as i said motherships are becoming more common and so are carriers which means people dont bat an i lid of hot dropping a cap on a hulk these days and its going to get worse until you just have mothership fights no one mining no one building your ships no minerals for you to pvp with and no one can make isk to buy pvp ships. Covert ops have never been tweaked but i think its time they were looked at. just as vegabonds and hacs were when they could do super stupid speeds nanoed and no one could kill them. people complained about them nerfing them but it made the game better :)
Jodi Goulsti No Salvation	Posted - 2010.09.30 12:33:00 - [94] Has it already been a month since we've had a five page discourse on cloaking? Where does the time go?
Doctor Mustaka Caldari Firebird Squadron Terra-Incognita	Posted - 2010.09.30 12:36:00 - [95] Quote: sitting at a gate for hours watching haulers is fine doesnt mean you couldnt warp out every so often and reactivate the cloak and come back if your not afk you dont havea problem You obviously have never been tasked with getting BMs on a large gate or station camp. Sometimes it can take hours upon hours to get decent BMs for a counter fleet to come in and break it. This often requires moving slowly around the campers to get decent warpins to their warpins. If I have to warp off every few hours it just increases the chance that when I wrap back I will land on someone making a very dangerous job even more dangerous. Propose a solution that does not require breaking needed and much used tactics. Oh wait we have already. HTFU and counter the cloaker. If youÆre worried about hot drops why not hot drop back. If you cant counter hot drop back you donÆt deserve your space.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.30 12:50:00 - [96] So you want to make 5x as much as a hisec miner with the same relative amount of risk? Greedy ass. Serves you right. When you say "fanboi" try to picture a fat man doing burlesque with 2 big ass fans that say CCP on one and HTFU on the other. Because that dude is me.
Dasola Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.30 12:59:00 - [97] Edited by: Dasola on 30/09/2010 13:00:31 Ok i think OP is complaining just for fun of it. Cloaks are ok, theyre working as intended. If your unable to defend your mining fleet, then maybe you should not be mining there? 0.0 is only as safe as you make it. Theres no other security measures for a reason: so player alliances can clam their piece of space and make best use of it.
GoGo Rens	Posted - 2010.09.30 13:00:00 - [98] Edited by: GoGo Rens on 30/09/2010 13:05:57 Nice try man but im not a carebear. I live in o.o space far more than u been able to play this game. I got a ten accounts mining fleet and i have lost alot of ships by red attacks. I can copy with that. But having an idiot afk and cloaked in system evry day for hrs thats another thing to deal with. I cant change the situation a bit and ofc i cant change corps or Alliance because of this, every day. Propably u havent faced a situation like this yet cause if u had u should come with a better proposal So you dont like somebody being afk. But you then say you have a 10 account mining fleet, so in theory unless you are using macros, 9 of those 10 accounts are afk at any one time as you can only be operating one character at a time. So what you want is for one persons account not to be afk because it is effecting your 9 accounts that are afk.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.09.30 13:21:00 - [99] You said you have 10 accounts, why not just mine in 10 Apocs. Sure, you'd make less money to sell, but at least you'd get some income, as opposed to none. I doubt he'd attack that team. Suggestion: Remove the "new topic" button from everywhere apart from the list of topics section within a subforum. That'd save those with chronic hand/eye coordination some face.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2010.09.30 13:39:00 - [100] Originally by: Cailais How about mining with escorts? C. Wait you mean send a logi or two off with them along with a DPS wagon to deal with rats/interlopers? Come on man that's far to sensible!
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.09.30 13:42:00 - [101] Originally by: Dasola If your unable to defend your mining fleet, then maybe you should not be mining there? Summed up perfectly.
Alun Hughes Project Nemesis The 0rphanage	Posted - 2010.09.30 13:49:00 - [102] Originally by: Brian Ballsack Originally by: Dasola If your unable to defend your mining fleet, then maybe you should not be mining there? Summed up perfectly. This OP need to HTFU
Marshall West	Posted - 2010.09.30 13:58:00 - [103] aint the orphanage high sec gankers who are to scared to go 0.0 anyway who you telling to HTFU :)
Bernard Schuyler	Posted - 2010.09.30 14:11:00 - [104] Originally by: kasiloth We did it but it didnt work. Cause the sb was afk. and u cannot have a response fleet watching at u all the day. It doesnt happen for a couple of hrs. It does for hrs every day. How does it not work? AFK Interceptor vs AFK SB? Sounds perfect to me! You have 10 accounts and can't sit ONE in a combat ship that might deter a stealth bomber? Also, you realize that AFK ships can't gank you, right?
Lady Ayeipsia	Posted - 2010.09.30 14:15:00 - [105] The problem is, they can't tell when the AFK cloaker is there or not. So they have to wait, for fear of a cyno opening up the moment they go to mine. Still, i don't think fixing the cloak will change this. Couldn't people just fly an AFK unprobably Tengu and accomplish the same thing? What next, no unprobable ships allowed? Then it will just be lokis that while probably, travel so fast that you can't ever catch them after you've probed them down, because they are already one grid over by the time you warp there. The solution is to get a defensive fleet ready, bait the AFK cloaker into calling in friends, then killing the friends repeatedly until the AFK cloaker has no more support and gets in trouble for leading his temates into traps constantly.
Bernard Schuyler	Posted - 2010.09.30 14:19:00 - [106] Originally by: Exlegion Logical fallacy. "Don't worry if he's AFK because he won't hurt you. Unless he's not AFK. Then you need to worry." Can anyone at all point out the flaw in this argument? Or is it just obvious to me? It is just you. These complaint threads are about AFK Cloaking. Cloaked ships being actively piloted are certainly part of the game and therefore a different matter. If you are 100% opposed to the existence of cloak modules it is a different argument. The counter argument that you dismiss is that people who are actually AFK are not a threat regardless of whether they are cloaked or not. The real basis of this debate is that people like the OP want to use Local as an always accurate warning system. No reds = Safe, Red = Unsafe, where the Reds are polite enough to leave after a few minutes so they can go back to mining.
BlondieBC Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Missions	Posted - 2010.09.30 14:43:00 - [107] Originally by: kasiloth Originally by: Emperor Cheney Area and supply denial is the one of the original purposes of submarine warfare. Yeah sure. but submarines are active not afk. And what they expect to kill when all ships are in pos? would u get out a ship of urs for mining when u see a red in local? So what is the point of submarine warfare? Submarine warfare has a meaning when they attack and destroy. If they intend to make a fear out of their presense and to base on that by sitting invisible in depth then ccp must give us some better scanners. This is not true. The largest impact of submarines in WW1 and WW2, was from the fear of submarines. Even if the German U-boats sank NO shipping, the convoy system reduced merchant shipping by 1/3 due to sitting in port while other ships load, traveling at the slowest ships speed, etc. Eve models this reasonably well. If 1/3 of your miners switched to fast lock PVP ships and logistics, the solo Stealth bomber would be of much lesser concern. For a historical comparisions, you are at the point where the U-boats are massacring merchant shipping, and the High Lord of the Admiralty is unwilling to implement the convoy system.
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.09.30 14:52:00 - [108] Best solution: After being cloaked in a system for more than an hour, you no longer show up on local. Now you don't need to panic about one cloaked player, as you can't see them anyway.
Alun Hughes Project Nemesis The 0rphanage	Posted - 2010.09.30 14:55:00 - [109] Originally by: Marshall West aint the orphanage high sec gankers who are to scared to go 0.0 anyway who you telling to HTFU :) confirmed we never go to 0.0
Mrs Destruction	Posted - 2010.09.30 14:57:00 - [110] Are you kidding!!!!!!! I love doing this to all the Cyrillic macro-miners that jam up the server (you know who you are). In fact, I think we should devote an entire week to AFK cloaking macro systems all across New Eden. Unfortunately, this might result in half of Russia emo-raging and closing their accounts.
Lady Qe	Posted - 2010.09.30 14:57:00 - [111] Typical cry-babies just like in any mmo.. they dont see a way around a situation.. they cry nerf or they'll quit.. seen it hundreds of times... if they'res no "instant" fix for them.. they claim the games unbalanced and unfair... Oh also, Theres not only ONE system in the game... dont like the guy siting in your system.. Move... Oh btw... i am Miner...
BlondieBC Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Missions	Posted - 2010.09.30 14:58:00 - [112] Solutions to SB: 1) Put Vulture in POS to boost fleet. 2) Logistics, One Logistic per 8 Hulks, makes hulks very hard to kill, even with multiple SB. 3) All hulks use warrior 2, not mining drones. 4) Hulks carry shield rep drones, that are always repping each other. This is more torp defense. 5) Mine in various locations. 6) Gate camp bottlenecks to your pvp area. 7) Form up PVP fleets and attack the bad guys home base. I often get in SB and harass pve'ers on slow PVP day. If battle develops, i run to it. 8) In one system {(Lvl 4) mining upgrades}, as soon as i show up in probe ship, a Super Carrier and Triage carrier show up. This is enough to discourage even black ops gangs. 9) If one of power allainces, set your titans in POS, boosting fleet. Hulks will be real hard to kill then. The key is that you can stop afk'ers and light attackers, if you work at it, and are willing to have say 1/3 of fleet as pvp'ers. Also, null sec was not designed for 3 man gangs to prosper versus 1 man gang. Get larger fleets, get say 20 or 30 man pve fleets, and work as a team. I have seen a ice mining corp routinely pop t1 and t2 solo frigates with Macks only. 30 warrior 1's and 30 shield rep drones are pop frigates real damn fast.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:09:00 - [113] Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 30/09/2010 15:10:28 If the takings from your mining ops are so poor that you can't afford to have one or two people protecting your fleet against this sort of disturbance, you should stop mining in 0.0 and consider moving to highsec. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
LoRDa RaMOs Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:10:00 - [114] Leave 0.0 kspace and go to 0.0 wspace. Gotta tell you, it's a lot less eventful than the first one. whispers: 0.0 kspace is bad for miners
Shirley Serious Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:12:00 - [115] Enemy stealth bombers transform into a Curse? Does Optimus Prime know about this? Yes. Yes, I am.
BlondieBC Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Missions	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:13:00 - [116] How to fit tank Hulk against Bombs * Using 2 Inv. Field II, Damage Control 2, Medium Extender. * This ship will take 8 or 9 bombs from Max skill bomber Pilot. (11 Low Skill) Ok, now this means it takes two bomber waves of 7 Each. So effectively Stealth Bombers Don't Matter. If you bring out HIC's, DIC's or Lachesis, you should kill one or more every trip. So now one or two bombers don't matter much, so you can ignore them. Your only concern is being hotdropped by capitals, titan bridge, or Black ops. Each has a solution: 1) Mine in Cyno Jammed system to deal with capitals. 2) Black Ops, dont' mine withing close light-year range of enemy systems. This rewards bigger territory holding blocks, as game mechanic should. Also, if Black Ops gang is within range of your system, go Hunt them. It is sexy kill. Also, there are fewer active black ops in game than titans, so this is not currently a major issue. In short, a heavily tanked hulk with combat drones, combined with 20 to 35% pvp ship in fleet will defeat all but the most determined opponents.
Razor Vision	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:13:00 - [117] Edited by: Razor Vision on 30/09/2010 15:17:07 I think it's quite hilarious how a lot of so called "hardcore" pvp'rs replied with "quit the game". You guys realize that the industrial sector is the backbone of the game? Without miners there would be no materials. Without materials there would be no way to build ships or modules. This ignorance of some PVP'rs is simply astounding. If anything, I wish they were the ones to quit the game. Since they obvious do not understand at all the most simple mechanics of Eve Online. It's perfectly reasonable that the OP posted a topic with his concerns that SB's are slightly OP when it comes to sabotaging mining OPs in 0.0. I live in 0.0 and I know what he's talking about. Any tom, ****, or sally with relatively no skills at all, could very easily stealth into any 0.0 system wish, find a safespot, then switch back to their "main" client. All the while, nobody is controlling the SB pilot, yet its effect is massive on the system it's in. Therefore, a mechanic in the game basically allows NOBODY to change an entire night of gaming for a lot of people. Zero skill, zero mouse or keyboard involvement, and so forth. So yeah, I don't think a timer is such a terrible idea. Infact, it's a great idea. Sure, I agree SB's are great tools for destroying mining ships and transport ships, etc <-- And it should STAY that way. But should they be effective AFK ships? No. No ship should have a special AFK power. Why? Because there's no player involvement. And CCP has made it clear that this game is entirely about player involvement. Players are the game. Without the players, it's simply empty space with rats patrolling astroids. These so called hardcore PVP'rs need to stop attacking this guy. If you're so tough, MR. PVP, then why would you care if they put a 30-60min afk timer on your SB? How would that affect you if you're a hardcore cutthroat PVP podkiller? You'd be active right? So a timer wouldn't affect you? Oh no, wait, maybe you are one of those cowards who hide in a system w/o fighting anyone for hours on end?
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:21:00 - [118] Originally by: Razor Vision Without miners there would be no materials. Without materials there would be no way to build ships or modules. You appear to be forgetting the existence of loot drops, hauler spawns and drone alloys (throughout the drone regions and in missions in highsec). I would wager that these sources combined account for a greater share of mineral production than mining, and far more people contribute towards them (especially in the drone regions, where people effectively mine with their guns). --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
Selling Slave	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:21:00 - [119] Marshall West has made several key points, an logical points. The ability to cloak for hours on end is a wonderful thing. I am able to swoop into your system an lock you down thru fear an terror. I don't have any disabilities, my cloak is unbreakable as long as I don't get too close to anything. There are no risks for me whatsoever as a cloaky pilot, CCP has favored me with the ability to attack you on my terms, an there is NOTHING you can do about it. When I am ready to lay you to waste, I simply fly up an lite a cyno, an I open the doorway for hell to flood into your system. You say your system is cyno jammed? Too bad, I have a covert cyno, NOTHING stops that. Keep crying to have cloaks changed, it is falling on deaf ears. CCP have favored the cloaky pilot, I will use this game mechanic to its fullest. I am going to come to your best mining system, an sit in it cloaked for days, until I have you second guessing yourself. When that happens, your going to think its safe, an your going to give up on being cautious, an thats when I have you, thats when you lose. Say all you want, there is no defense against me, thinking there is, thats just wishful thinking. I too have multipule accounts, so, while I have your system locked down with one, I will be enjoying the game with another. Your misery an tears fuel my sadisticness, so, keep crying on the forums about changing cloaks, its never going to happen. All you carebears are on this server for the pvpers amusement, get a clue. We don't need carebears, CCP could seed the market with the goods needed to keep the game running without you. Your carebear existance is tolerated because you pay. ::insert maniacil laugh here:: Where do I had the sarcasm an humor smilelys? Its time to make a change, seriously.
Sjugar	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:22:00 - [120] The problem I have with AFK-cloakers is that they're playing the game while not actively sitting behind their computer. In what way is this different then macro-mining? They influence the game-play of others while not playing. In my opinion, just forcefully logout accounts that are inactive for 30-60 minutes.
Ray Gunne	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:24:00 - [121] Edited by: Ray Gunne on 30/09/2010 15:25:25 Originally by: Razor Vision You guys realize that the industrial sector is the backbone of the game? Without miners there would be no materials. Without materials there would be no way to build ships or modules. You realise that without a market there would be no industry. Without losses there would be no demand, without demand there would be no way to sell ships or modules. Quote: It's perfectly reasonable that the OP posted a topic with his concerns that SB's are slightly OP when it comes to sabotaging mining OPs in 0.0. I live in 0.0 and I know what he's talking about. Any tom, ****, or sally with relatively no skills at all, could very easily stealth into any 0.0 system wish, find a safespot, then switch back to their "main" client. All the while, nobody is controlling the SB pilot, yet its effect is massive on the system it's in. Therefore, a mechanic in the game basically allows NOBODY to change an entire night of gaming for a lot of people. Zero skill, zero mouse or keyboard involvement, and so forth. So yeah, I don't think a timer is such a terrible idea. Infact, it's a great idea. Sure, I agree SB's are great tools for destroying mining ships and transport ships, etc <-- And it should STAY that way. But should they be effective AFK ships? No. No ship should have a special AFK power. Why? Because there's no player involvement. And CCP has made it clear that this game is entirely about player involvement. Players are the game. Without the players, it's simply empty space with rats patrolling astroids. So you never thought about a miner using a second account (like the SB pilot) sitting cloaked and ready to snipe the SB if it comes into attack?
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Foundation	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:24:00 - [122] Originally by: kasiloth What i want to say here is that the tactic of an enemy to send a stealth bomber in a system staying there afk for hrs preventing local miners or raters to work is becoming a curse with a high risk to ruin the entire game. You are clear evidence that this tactic is infact improving the game, by clearing out sackless derps such as yourself. Grow a pair and mine anyways. Get some combat support to protect you. You want to sit in 0.0 space all day and mine without worrying about others, you are playing the WRONG GAME. ~ ° ° ° ~ Non-Gameplay Enhancements!
Summer Finn	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:26:00 - [123] Do the same with the foes until you get an cease "afk" fire.
Aessoroz	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:29:00 - [124] Edited by: Aessoroz on 30/09/2010 15:30:02 Edited by: Aessoroz on 30/09/2010 15:29:51 I bet most of you don't even live in nullsec. My main does with a sizable alliance and bombers and other silly fleets always come roaming through. We also do have a mining system but bombers are never a issue? Why? Because instacanes alpha the heck out of bombers and only one is needed to do so. Heck I swear everytime theres a bomber, 70+ people just pile in the system after it because well, we are killmail hoes.
Bernard Schuyler	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:31:00 - [125] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso It seems like a reasonable expectation that people in a pvp game are actually at their computer. Given that statement, then the answer is NOT any nerf to cloaks, but rather force log-offs for anyone idle for X minutes. If you want to nerf AFK, nerf AFK. Also, I love how people complain about this all the time yet I am sure love the fact that they can use Cloaks to avoid harm as well. Be careful what you wish for. Probes that see through cloaks will hurt a lot more of these complainers than it will affect AFL Cloakers
Mrs Destruction	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:32:00 - [126] Originally by: Sjugar The problem I have with AFK-cloakers is that they're playing the game while not actively sitting behind their computer. In what way is this different then macro-mining? They influence the game-play of others while not playing. In my opinion, just forcefully logout accounts that are inactive for 30-60 minutes. True, but right now it's the best way to stop macro-miners (i.e. 80% of Russian accounts) without CCP having to outright ban them and wipe out alot of their revenue. It's nice to get 3-4 clients running with AFK cloakers in a macro constellation and then goto bed. Fighting AFK with AFK. I kinda like it.
Nuela	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:32:00 - [127] Solution to problem. Get rid of local. A stealth bomber AFK would then do nothing to stop operations.
Sjugar	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:37:00 - [128] Originally by: Nuela Solution to problem. Get rid of local. A stealth bomber AFK would then do nothing to stop operations. So, is the unprobable T3 in a safespot the wormhole equivalent to the AFK cloaker?
Efernaal	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:39:00 - [129] Originally by: kasiloth I dont like to complain without a proposal, i would suggest CCp to deactivate cloaking device after a period of inactivity of lets say 30-60 min. So defenders could scan and chase the intruder. As someone pointed out that sub's in modern warfare are used for denial of resources. What they forgot is that that even a these ships still need to come up for air and supply's time to time. Even a modern sub with a nuke reactor still needs to come up to get food supply's.
Razor Vision	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:46:00 - [130] Originally by: Ray Gunne Edited by: Ray Gunne on 30/09/2010 15:25:25 Originally by: Razor Vision You guys realize that the industrial sector is the backbone of the game? Without miners there would be no materials. Without materials there would be no way to build ships or modules. You realise that without a market there would be no industry. Without losses there would be no demand, without demand there would be no way to sell ships or modules. So you never thought about a miner using a second account (like the SB pilot) sitting cloaked and ready to snipe the SB if it comes into attack? The ones running the markets are usually involved in some way with industrialists. Your counter method involving the miner to purchase a second account to counter the guy who already has two accounts is exactly what CCP would want, more money. so you're suggestion is spend RL money to counter an ingame mechanic? Not very strategic. "solve all your problems by spending money on it." brilliant, brilliant. really.
Bernard Schuyler	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:48:00 - [131] Originally by: Efernaal Originally by: kasiloth I dont like to complain without a proposal, i would suggest CCp to deactivate cloaking device after a period of inactivity of lets say 30-60 min. So defenders could scan and chase the intruder. As someone pointed out that sub's in modern warfare are used for denial of resources. What they forgot is that that even a these ships still need to come up for air and supply's time to time. Even a modern sub with a nuke reactor still needs to come up to get food supply's. And again, these threads are all based on fear. They see someone in Local, and are assuming they are in a Stealth Bomber, Recon or some other cloaked vessel that can hotdrop hell upon them. Whether they are or aren't is largely irrelevent. These are people who want to play without adequate security measures and complain bitterly when they are not allowed to do so.
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:49:00 - [132] If CCP ever decide to have EvE grow some gonads and remove local; will you still moan like little baby bears about inconsequential stuff like the existence of 'other' players?
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:50:00 - [133] Another AFK cloaking thread... geez you'd think you guys have never read the forums before. What CCP has stated is that you should 'deal with the cloakers using in-game means.' While that may sound like a load of tripe it really isn't. Here's the 'in-game means' to deal with that problem: 1. Move to another system. To continue their harrassment the cloaky must change systems as well, and you get a chance to kill him then. 2. War Dec/Kill the corp he belongs to. If you inflict enough damage they will 'choose' to go somewhere else. Mercs can be good for this. 3. War Dec/Kill the Alliance he belongs to. Given enough grief, the Alliance leads may tell him to stop or even kick him. Be sure to let the alliance leads know WHY you war dec'd. Beware this could backfire if you're all a bunch of idiots and just provide targets. 4. Bribe him to stop. Although this may offend your sense of 'righteousness', HTFU and accept that you've been beaten. Most peeps will go away if given enough isk, and if not then they're probably committed to a cause like alliance warfare. In which case see 2 or 3 above. What not to do: Make another stupid thread asking CCP to change the game so you can mine in peace.
Chirzo Mundael	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:51:00 - [134] Originally by: Emperor Cheney Area and supply denial is the one of the original purposes of submarine warfare. You can find a submarine, but not a AFK cloaked SB. I have been in tese situations myself, annoying, but i adapted and i don't complain about it.
LoRDa RaMOs Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:52:00 - [135] Originally by: Selling Slave Marshall West has made several key points, an logical points. The ability to cloak for hours on end is a wonderful thing. I am able to swoop into your system an lock you down thru fear an terror. I don't have any disabilities, my cloak is unbreakable as long as I don't get too close to anything. There are no risks for me whatsoever as a cloaky pilot, CCP has favored me with the ability to attack you on my terms, an there is NOTHING you can do about it. When I am ready to lay you to waste, I simply fly up an lite a cyno, an I open the doorway for hell to flood into your system. You say your system is cyno jammed? Too bad, I have a covert cyno, NOTHING stops that. Keep crying to have cloaks changed, it is falling on deaf ears. CCP have favored the cloaky pilot, I will use this game mechanic to its fullest. I am going to come to your best mining system, an sit in it cloaked for days, until I have you second guessing yourself. When that happens, your going to think its safe, an your going to give up on being cautious, an thats when I have you, thats when you lose. Say all you want, there is no defense against me, thinking there is, thats just wishful thinking. I too have multipule accounts, so, while I have your system locked down with one, I will be enjoying the game with another. Your misery an tears fuel my sadisticness, so, keep crying on the forums about changing cloaks, its never going to happen. All you carebears are on this server for the pvpers amusement, get a clue. We don't need carebears, CCP could seed the market with the goods needed to keep the game running without you. Your carebear existance is tolerated because you pay. ::insert maniacil laugh here:: Where do I had the sarcasm an humor smilelys? Its time to make a change, seriously. This is just epic, love it.! +1
Mrs Destruction	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:52:00 - [136] removing local would unbalance the game terribly unless you extended the D scan to encompass more of the system
Razor Vision	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:54:00 - [137] Originally by: Nuela Solution to problem. Get rid of local. A stealth bomber AFK would then do nothing to stop operations. That'd be an absolutely terrible idea. It'd rip down the industrial/mining sector almost completely. All of 0.0 would be in a constant state of war with all alliances constantly at 50% or more pvp deployment. Because at any moment surprise ********* could be happening. The game would lose a massive amount of players and very quickly PVP'rs would have no more ships or modules to purchase because all of the thousands of casual miners gave up bothering to do such a risky venture. Sure, the no local thing works in WH space, but the ppl who live that way arent high in number. there are many miners in 0.0 who take a more casual approach to it. You cant expect high level security on every mining op in the game. It just wont happen. theres manpower for it, but not everyone wants to do such a thing. And no matter how great your offensive force is, with there being no local, any amount of ppl could slip past your attacks and counter by destroying everyone in your system. so whether defensive or offensive, having no local would be such a pain for industrialsts that it would annihilate the profession entirely save for empire miners and WH miners. then the ships/modules that require Abc's will be extremely expensive because there arent nearly as many ppl mining in WH and there never will be. WHspace will always be a smaller, more nomadic area and is not meant to be the industrial powerhouse that kspace can have.
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:54:00 - [138] It would be fun to have some sort of active "sonar" module you could fit to destroyers that would allow you to go around hunting "submarines" with. It would introduce a sort of cat and mouse minigame for solo stealthers and hunters. You could use bomb launchers and/or smartbombs to flush out the "ping" you get on your sonar module, kinda like depth charges.
Cailais Amarr Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:56:00 - [139] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Originally by: Cailais How about mining with escorts? C. Wait you mean send a logi or two off with them along with a DPS wagon to deal with rats/interlopers? Come on man that's far to sensible! Dammit Vaneshi you're right. What on earth was I thinking? I also now demand CCP change all game mechanics to favour the lazy and greedy. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Foundation	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:57:00 - [140] Originally by: Mrs Destruction removing local would unbalance the game terribly unless you extended the D scan to encompass more of the system If theres one good thing that came from wormhole space, its the proof that removing local would NOT unbalance the game. Infact, wormhole space is superior 0.0 IMO Change the directional to automatic so we dont have to keep clicking it. Shorten its range, to compensate for its automagicness REMOVE LOCAL. This would change gameplay a lot, but it would also be a bit more interesting... ~ ° ° ° ~ Non-Gameplay Enhancements!
AFK Cloaker Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.09.30 15:57:00 - [141]
Razor Vision	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:00:00 - [142] Edited by: Razor Vision on 30/09/2010 16:04:43 Originally by: Terminal Insanity Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/09/2010 15:58:10 Originally by: Mrs Destruction removing local would unbalance the game terribly unless you extended the D scan to encompass more of the system If theres one good thing that came from wormhole space, its the proof that removing local would NOT unbalance the game. Infact, wormhole space is superior 0.0 IMO Change the directional to automatic so we dont have to keep clicking it. Shorten its range, to compensate for its automagicness REMOVE LOCAL. it would change gameplay a bit, but imo it would be more enjoyable I really dont think the hardcore understand how removing local in kspace would rip the game apart. It works for WH space because the select few who choose to live that way do so. But not everyone wants to be living that way and there never will be a lot of ppl wanting that. Therefore you'd have a sharp decrease in miners the moment local is removed and as a result a sharp increase in prices for every thing in the game save for items sold by NPC's. (skillbooks and station vaults, lol). Most of the time its people with relatively little to no understanding of the massive amount of industry and production business that goes on out in kspace. You destroy this, you destroy the game. The economy turns to **** and a big portion of the game is axed. Lots of ppl who strictly pvp, buy plex, or pve to gain money, have no idea how removing local would greatly imbalance the game in so many terrible ways. of which the effects would hurt everyone. even the guy who strictly pvp's. (but maybe not the guy with billions in plex bought isk).
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:01:00 - [143] Originally by: AFK Cloaker lol /thread
Amanda Killjoy	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:13:00 - [144] Edited by: Amanda Killjoy on 30/09/2010 16:14:57 Edited by: Amanda Killjoy on 30/09/2010 16:13:50 Where do you and your buddies mine and what's the name of this scary stealth bomber afk weiner? If you're in nullsec, you face all those dangers compared to empire's "hulkageddon" marathon. I think you need to join a real big alliance that owns a ungodly portion of space where you have nothing but "friendly blues" surrounding you and your mining fleet. If you can't mine in peace, go after this little sleazebag and pod his sorry self. There's no time to be scared in nullsec and if you're brave enough to mine it, get some testosterone and face this clown. Besides, a lot of peeps want your stuff, so quit your whining and get some. Otherwise, gimme your stuff and the system this weasel is at with you so I can gank this ****er myself since you and your buddies are so scared of him.
BrundleMeth Caldari Temporal Mechanics	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:13:00 - [145] Originally by: Lord XSiV And no, the subscriber base won't ever decline because of this. Not true. The guy who introduced my to EVE quit over this very subject. And he was a full time 0.0 inhabitant. I doubt he is the only one to quit over this. Now me I don't give rats ass, I'm just saying...
Vossejongk Caldari Bendebeukers Green Rhino	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:16:00 - [146] Put out bait (thats worth killing, and seems to be easily killed but is actually not) wait an our or so If nothing happens, you can continue mining! ----------------------------------------------- EVE Gate: Originally by: Simeon Tor Soon you'll be saying "Eve has a client?"
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Foundation	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:20:00 - [147] Originally by: Razor Vision I really dont think the hardcore understand how removing local in kspace would rip the game apart. It works for WH space because the select few who choose to live that way do so. But not everyone wants to be living that way and there never will be a lot of ppl wanting that. Therefore you'd have a sharp decrease in miners the moment local is removed and as a result a sharp increase in prices for every thing in the game save for items sold by NPC's. (skillbooks and station vaults, lol). it would -not- rip the game apart. You're a sensationalist. You bring up the point "not everyone wants to be living that way" well, tell that to the kiddies who cry for cloak nerfs every day. Every time i hear about the cloak whiners, im always reminded of this guy... ~ ° ° ° ~ Non-Gameplay Enhancements!
Aaron Mirrorsaver 1st Cavalry Division	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:31:00 - [148] welcome to 2006/2007 but nice troll. ------ * Your signature is inappropriate and is therefore locked for CCP impersonation. Please file a petition when you have an appropriate signature.
deo tranquilo Koshaku	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:33:00 - [149] kasiloth. just have a mate sit in a frig or ceptor to guard you. bombers aren't hard to kill once you get a point on them, and they can barely kill a t1 frig at decent speed unless they sit still waiting for a bomb or torpedo to land on them.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:37:00 - [150] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Razor Vision Without miners there would be no materials. Without materials there would be no way to build ships or modules. You appear to be forgetting the existence of loot drops, hauler spawns and drone alloys (throughout the drone regions and in missions in highsec). I would wager that these sources combined account for a greater share of mineral production than mining, and far more people contribute towards them (especially in the drone regions, where people effectively mine with their guns). They have been nerfed, don't you remember?
Aessoroz	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:38:00 - [151] Better yet, I'll agree for for a timed cloak only if stealth bombers get their EHP increased to 20k minimum from just 1k.
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:38:00 - [152] Cloak = pvp flag. /sits back and grabs popcorn
BlondieBC Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Missions	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:40:00 - [153] Originally by: Chirzo Mundael Originally by: Emperor Cheney Area and supply denial is the one of the original purposes of submarine warfare. You can find a submarine, but not a AFK cloaked SB. I have been in tese situations myself, annoying, but i adapted and i don't complain about it. This is technically true, but somewhat misleading. A modern attack submarine, that intentionally stays away from targets is almost impossible to find. I War World II, the germans had a couple of re-fueling submarines, that hid from the allies. They were never found dispite great effort and partial breaking of the code. They hid near greenland, and only came up at nite, if no allied ships were around. Generally Speaking, Submarines are only "findable" when actually hunting targets. The thing that is overpowered compared to RL is Local. Local would be equivalent of a device that would tell you the exact number of submarine withing 20 miles, the hull number, and the name of the captain. Local is also the equivalent of a device on a sub that tells the player the number of ships, and hull numbers of all surface ship within 20 miles. If we want to make more like RL sub warfare, local is what has to go first. The problem with null sec is not that the risk is too high, but that the nullsec/high sec reward ratio is too low. If the mineral content of null sec only ore was double or triple, a lot of these complaints would go away, IMO.
Selling Slave	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:40:00 - [154] Edited by: Selling Slave on 30/09/2010 16:41:09 Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Cloak = pvp flag. /sits back and grabs popcorn Did you mean f a g? an added the L so it would post?
Kiran Minmatar Terra Hawks	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:44:00 - [155] You could keep local but just make it like wormhole local where you only appear if you talk. I have had some very funny conversations with cloaked scouts from an enemy alliance in the past. But why not just make sure your hulks can tank the damage of the stealth bomber ? Use a Orca to give combat bonus instead of mining imagine a SB dropping a bomb on your little hulks only to see it do not even half damage due to the warfare link Shield Harmonization being active. You can make a very effective tank this way. (Checked it in efit when my last corp was in wormhole space, needed a way to tank the sleepers.) Use drones to kill him. Place cans around the belt with large tech 2 warp disruption bubbles. Get him tangled up in the roids your mining. Make bookmarks so you wont get caught in them. Or even better get some of your corp to fly defense? I guess you never did see the you tube vid of the pvp hulk ? And to prove it can be done here is the you tube link pvp hulk But that would mean actually playing with other people in game.
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Foundation	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:45:00 - [156] Originally by: Venkul Mul They have been nerfed, don't you remember? i got 150 MILLION units of tritanium from 2 hauler spawns. Nerfed? ~ ° ° ° ~ Non-Gameplay Enhancements!
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:46:00 - [157] Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Cloak = pvp flag. /sits back and grabs popcorn Nah. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
AFK Father AFK Chartered System Management	Posted - 2010.09.30 16:49:00 - [158] Originally by: AFK Cloaker I know things have been bad between us, but I want to make amends. You can talk to me son.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.09.30 17:07:00 - [159] Originally by: Sjugar Originally by: Nuela Solution to problem. Get rid of local. A stealth bomber AFK would then do nothing to stop operations. So, is the unprobable T3 in a safespot the wormhole equivalent to the AFK cloaker? So.. pretty much always assume that your ship has no crew or can warp light years but can't have a scanner operate withou you clicking incessantly and even there not even know if a ship is anywhere around if its cloaked? Great, then the miners and ratters would move more and more to high sec ... less targets. Without Local we'd have a lot less idea of who we were playing the game with.. less chance to know our competion, even meet allies seeing them in local each night or convoing them for cooperation. All the planets, stations, and gates look the same....what makes jumping around interesting to me and makes me feel like I'm actually going places and places are different is the names in local. I play to PVP ..even when trading its a cat and mouse game. I want interaction with other players, friend and foe . Most of all I want more targets. I want more people in 0.0 (no concord to shoot at me because i want to pvp) . Miners and PVE'rs are good targets... don't scare them off.... give them ways to switch to pitchfork mode instead of turtling or moving to high sec. I like to cloak, but knowing that they could find me if I didn't move now and then actually make me fly my ship instead of surfing the internet on the other monitor...actualy playing the game shouldn't be much a chore... ..and to the other person who said something about my complaint meaning that all players should be logged off ater 15 minutes of inactivity? Yeah, why not.... seeing all those people in stations who aren't at their comptuer is also kida dumb ... logging back in or running over to click the keyboard a coupld times whil making dinner to preserver chat intel isn't that much of a hardship.... either your'e in the game or you're not... i'm ok with being consistent there.
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Foundation	Posted - 2010.09.30 17:22:00 - [160] Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/09/2010 17:25:19 So lets see here... 1) "High security" space provides your security, so you really do not care if theres an AFK cloaker in the system. 2) In 0.0 space, you have no concord. Due to the lack of concord, you have to suddenly worry about the AFK cloaker. 3) 0.0 Space is also supposed to be player-driven. 4) There is another thread somewhere, players want to take the role of Concord in Jita. Well, heres an idea 1) Man the **** up. 2) Create your "concord" wannabie alliance/corp/whatever. 3) Guard all these carebears in 0.0. 4) ??? 5) Profit? Edit: oh wait, sorry, i missed the part where you want to just bear in 0.0 as if it was highsec and not take any added costs OR risks. Continue moaning. ~ ° ° ° ~ Non-Gameplay Enhancements!
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.30 17:25:00 - [161] Why are there 6 pages of HERP DERP I KNOW ABOUT U-BOATS I SAW A FILM when I posted the counter to lurking bombers 3 pages ago. It's not hard! It's easy! Stop talking *****s about ASW because internet spaceships are not RL submarines OK? Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always** to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Mamba Lev	Posted - 2010.09.30 17:38:00 - [162] Originally by: kasiloth BAWWWWW
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.30 17:44:00 - [163] Originally by: Malcanis I posted the counter to lurking bombers 3 pages ago. It's not hard! It's easy! As did I, Malcanis. But please realize that most of these threads are started by people who don't want a SOLUTION, but rather want a CHANGE that gives them perfectly safe mining grounds.
Dred Control	Posted - 2010.09.30 17:58:00 - [164] If SB are now submarines, then give us the equivalent of sonar and depth charges to seek and destroy them, please.
Sealiah Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Care Factor	Posted - 2010.09.30 18:05:00 - [165] Make cloaks burn fuel - isotopes, stront or something in a qunatity allowing a ship to stay constantly cloaked for maybe 60 minutes with a big hold, for stealth-ships like recons, SB make it last up to maybe 3 hours, for black ops make it up to 6 hours of cloak without refuel. Cloaks are indetectible - still true. Cloakers can make great ops, runs, etc based on their cloaking devices almost without limit - true Cloakers can't afk-cloak the entire days or months just to ruin other peoples experiance - true!
Ray Gunne	Posted - 2010.09.30 18:05:00 - [166] Originally by: Razor Vision The ones running the markets are usually involved in some way with industrialists. If no one looses ships and modules then noone would buy them, PVPers create the demand that the industrials supply. Quote: Your counter method involving the miner to purchase a second account to counter the guy who already has two accounts is exactly what CCP would want, more money. so you're suggestion is spend RL money to counter an ingame mechanic? Not very strategic. "solve all your problems by spending money on it." brilliant, brilliant. really. Use a friend then, mine in a group with tanks and combat drones, lay a trap, but two accounts to counter two accounts doesn't seem unbalanced to me.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2010.09.30 18:08:00 - [167] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Razor Vision Without miners there would be no materials. Without materials there would be no way to build ships or modules. You appear to be forgetting the existence of loot drops, hauler spawns and drone alloys (throughout the drone regions and in missions in highsec). I would wager that these sources combined account for a greater share of mineral production than mining, and far more people contribute towards them (especially in the drone regions, where people effectively mine with their guns). They have been nerfed, don't you remember? I know the composition of some of the drone alloys has changed, and I think meta 0 loot might have been removed from some locations, but that still leaves an awful lot of stuff that just gets melted down, not to mention the hauler spawns. Would you care to elaborate if I've missed anything significant? --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
Ray Gunne	Posted - 2010.09.30 18:12:00 - [168] Actually thinking about it then maybe local should change in 0.0 to behave like wormhole space in that unless someone broadcasts they do not show up. This would make 0.0 so much more a team dynamic and prices would go up due to lower supply benefiting those that make the effort to harvest and exploit 0.0 resources.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.09.30 18:14:00 - [169] I am a bomber Pilot. I shall be visiting the OP's system soon.
Feilamya	Posted - 2010.09.30 18:59:00 - [170] If stealth bombers could be a becomming curse, they would be useful for something...
Lord Xantoh	Posted - 2010.09.30 19:29:00 - [171] Edited by: Lord Xantoh on 30/09/2010 19:32:33 Originally by: kasiloth If anyone of u has the same problem and has something better to propose please do it here. Sorry mate but if you can't use just a little imagination to play this game to your own advantage and outsmart your enemies then yes, you are a lazy carebear... To give you the benefit of a doubt, here are some directions for you: - Jump clones - Use other activities until the threat has retired (if you choose to spin your ship on station, your problem) - Form a small gang escorting your mining op with cruisers using drones and sweep the area until the threat uncloaks. The nice part is - if he is really AFK - he won't see what hit him... ;) There are so many ways to counter this type of invisible threats, you just need to think out of your box. LX
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2010.09.30 20:19:00 - [172] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 30/09/2010 20:24:00 From what I've seen in this thread the argument is cloaked ships should not be able to cloak forever and go afk. Why? Lets see, the reasons so far are: 1) It's unfair. 2).........there is no #2 see #1. Why is it unfair? The answer? Because apparently single afk cloakers have the magical ability to bring alliances to their knees. Why? The answer? Because it's a danger to those in that system and noone wants to undock. Seriously, is that a legitimate reason? Of course not. I have a solution, however. There is a place for those of you too afraid of cloakers in your nullsec system. It's called Empire. Go there. Be safe. Then you can mine, rat, mission to your heart's content without fear of being shot at. I'm not really a pvper but, dayam, this makes me want to come into nullsec and take over.
Grohalmatar The Flying Band	Posted - 2010.09.30 20:36:00 - [173] If he is just sitting cloaked then what is the big deal? He can't hurt you cloaked. If he de-cloaks, pop and pod. Then your system is safe. Maybe i'm ignorant, but when people complain about afk cloakers, I always get suspicious that what they are really complaining about is the strain said cloakers place on their macro bots.
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.09.30 21:04:00 - [174] Originally by: Lillith Starfire Cloak = safe. you are only half correct there. Cloak = Safe; Cloak = No Threat. the ONLY way a cloaker is not a threat is if they are working with a fleet. if you only see one person, then there is no fleet. also, cloaks are supposed [designed] to make the ship safe. that's what they do. an AFK Cloaker is no more a threat than a pitbull in China, when i reside in the US. once again: playing the game wrong, or playing the wrong game... aroo
Kalain ap'Sulen Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.	Posted - 2010.09.30 21:14:00 - [175] Originally by: kasiloth I got a ten accounts mining fleet Krohnan? Quando ami flunkus morti.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.30 21:53:00 - [176] Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Cloak = pvp flag. /sits back and grabs popcorn This. So-called "PVPers" defend this ship because: a) It allows them to PVP to virtually ZERO risk to themselves. b) Forces everyone (but themselves) to remain active and full alert, evetually wearing them down. Players that go AFK hours and days at a time to keep systems on lockdown are akin to macro players. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Kezzle	Posted - 2010.09.30 22:50:00 - [177] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Cloak = pvp flag. /sits back and grabs popcorn This. So-called "PVPers" defend this ship because: a) It allows them to PVP to virtually ZERO risk to themselves. b) Forces everyone (but themselves) to remain active and full alert, evetually wearing them down. Players that go AFK hours and days at a time to keep systems on lockdown are akin to macro players. What, just like Original Posters with 10 multiboxed accounts all mining semi-AFK (oo look! being generous) who can't even be bothered to bring some fight to the equation? Where's the difference between AFK cloaking and AFK mining? Just deal with it. If you can't deal with it, don't try and mine in nulsec. Some minor changes to fit and operational doctrine would make the threat trivial-to-manageable.
JJ Starr Minmatar Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2010.09.30 23:00:00 - [178] Originally by: Mr Kidd I'm not really a pvper but, dayam, this makes me want to come into nullsec and take over. Don't take over. Grab a couple-3-4-5 pals (6-8 is a great number), make some chips n dip, a couple cool ones, and set up shop on busy jump bridges...in Stealth Bombers of course. After you blow up some **** generating tears like this thread OP...the offended parties might even respond sluggishly. Bomb a couple of them then slip out of system to another bridge or go take a well deserved break making sure you stay logged on but cloaked for fine fine sippable lickable whine
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.30 23:07:00 - [179] Originally by: Kezzle Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Cloak = pvp flag. /sits back and grabs popcorn This. So-called "PVPers" defend this ship because: a) It allows them to PVP to virtually ZERO risk to themselves. b) Forces everyone (but themselves) to remain active and full alert, evetually wearing them down. Players that go AFK hours and days at a time to keep systems on lockdown are akin to macro players. What, just like Original Posters with 10 multiboxed accounts all mining semi-AFK (oo look! being generous) who can't even be bothered to bring some fight to the equation? Where's the difference between AFK cloaking and AFK mining? Just deal with it. If you can't deal with it, don't try and mine in nulsec. Some minor changes to fit and operational doctrine would make the threat trivial-to-manageable. Multimboxing =! AFK-playing Nice try, though. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Lianari Estrosa	Posted - 2010.09.30 23:12:00 - [180] Epic Fail, Please more tears, the carebare tears fuel my cloak.
XSarah	Posted - 2010.09.30 23:36:00 - [181] welcome to EVE, bear
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.30 23:39:00 - [182] You know, I never hear threads about AFK cloakers from Wormhole inhabitants. They don't have local. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.30 23:47:00 - [183] Originally by: Liang Nuren You know, I never hear threads about AFK cloakers from Wormhole inhabitants. They don't have local. -Liang Because they're different. Make entrance gates to nullsec as random as wh gates and then MAYBE you can start comparing apples to oranges. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Kat Bandeis Caldari Empire Maneuvers	Posted - 2010.09.30 23:51:00 - [184] Originally by: Jennifer Drama Or maybe you could go to the system next door? If he follows, then he's not AFK and doing exactly what's intended in this game. Set up a small camp on the other side to catch him when he does. If he doesn't, well the answer is self explanatory, continue on with your activities. Or, get an alt or friend to sit in the belt with you (you did say you have defenders right?) Sounds more like you want to AFK mine in dangerous space without a care in the world(in other words, not actually play the game but still make ISK). In short, you're a tosser. HTFU. This, exactly. Grow a pair, for god's sake.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.30 23:55:00 - [185] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Because they're different. Make entrance gates to nullsec as random as wh gates and then MAYBE you can start comparing apples to oranges. Bull**, they are exactly the same. The person trying to grind is trying to grind, and the people AFK cloaking them are AFK cloaking them. How the person gets there is irrelevant. -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Ehgrimm	Posted - 2010.09.30 23:59:00 - [186] All I see in this thread is people whining about psychological warfare, and people who aren't stupid.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 00:09:00 - [187] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Because they're different. Make entrance gates to nullsec as random as wh gates and then MAYBE you can start comparing apples to oranges. Bull****, they are exactly the same. The person trying to grind is trying to grind, and the people AFK cloaking them are AFK cloaking them. How the person gets there is irrelevant. -Liang Right. k-space and w-space are the same says you . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.01 00:12:00 - [188] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Because they're different. Make entrance gates to nullsec as random as wh gates and then MAYBE you can start comparing apples to oranges. Bull****, they are exactly the same. The person trying to grind is trying to grind, and the people AFK cloaking them are AFK cloaking them. How the person gets there is irrelevant. -Liang Right. k-space and w-space are the same says you . The ways to get into the same situation might be different, but once you ARE in the same situation, you, umm, well, are in the same situation. What does it matter how the so-called AFK cloaker (or, basically, any ship that logged off in w-space) got there if he's already there ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 00:25:00 - [189] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 01/10/2010 00:32:31 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Because they're different. Make entrance gates to nullsec as random as wh gates and then MAYBE you can start comparing apples to oranges. Bull****, they are exactly the same. The person trying to grind is trying to grind, and the people AFK cloaking them are AFK cloaking them. How the person gets there is irrelevant. -Liang Right. k-space and w-space are the same says you . The ways to get into the same situation might be different, but once you ARE in the same situation, you, umm, well, are in the same situation. What does it matter how the so-called AFK cloaker (or, basically, any ship that logged off in w-space) got there if he's already there ? For one, you can't cyno in your gang. Two, you can't wear down an opponent that might or might not be there. Three, to find someone or anybody at all takes the cloaker more effort and work. At the very least, you're trading risk for more effort, which would explain why there aren't a whole lot of afk cloakers in w-space. You're looking for easy ganks that allow you to go afk for days on end. Having to work for your kill defeats the purpose of AFKing in the first place. Four, even though there may be residents in wspace, a chunk of players scan, get in and get out, another huge waste of time for afk cloakers looking to wear down their prey. List goes on and on. But whatever. It won't make a difference to you anyway. So let's just pretend like the mechanics are the same for both w- and k-space and things should work out exactly the same for both scenarios :) Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.01 00:56:00 - [190] That's only talking about mitigating factors and possible counter-measures, which was the whole point of people screaming at the OP to HTFU. Granted, the hotdrop thing could be considered an actual problem for 0.0 space regardless of scenario chosen. Still, at best, he'd get one round of kills before he would be dead himself, since if he lights a cyno for a hotdrop, he's DEAD immediately after if the defender was prepared. And if the hotdropper wasn't prepared enough, he might not even get the chance to hotdrop at all, but be destroyed and cyno brought down before "reinforcements" arrive. Still, that's yet another story. The direct comparison would have been: 0.0 -> one mostly-AFK cloaker that never bothers hotdropping anything but just takes out on occasion some miners, to wage psychological warfare and disrupt mining operations W-space -> one unscannable or AKF-cloaked ship in a system with a heavy-duty presence of a mining corp, swooping in and occasionally killing some of the miners, to wage psychological warfare and disrupt mining operations None of the people in any of those scenarios even think about leaving the system nor calling any additional people in. And that's the scenario comparison WE are laughing at. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Capt Chaotic	Posted - 2010.10.01 01:25:00 - [191] I've never posted on here but i read all the time. But i actually have to respond to this. All i see is wah wah wah, change the game for me! FFS Hi Sec is wait for it..........HIGH Security. If you want to feel safe mining whist watching your afk p0rn, stay the **** there. 0.0 Space? OMG! NO Security. If you don't want to mine safely, take your punt here. It's 0 Sec for a reason. Don't blame some guy in a bloody Stealth Bomber for being somewhere he can be wickedly effective. If you want safety, go mine in hi sec. If your rewards are better in low and null with your mining, you take the risk v reward shot like everybody else. We can all adapt or just not go there, why can't you? Also, on the subject of LOCAL.... i say remove it. Why? Because it's fricking SPACE! When i walk into a building i don't know exactly who is there and what there status is when i walk in. Use your scanner and take a punt, that's what the damn thing is there for in the first place! I suppose you want to know who, what and where immediately? How about you just ask CCP to give you an "I need isk" button that you can press every time you want anything? GTFO and go out there and earn it! Improvise, overcome and adapt. This is a GAME, it's not RL. If you can adapt to things in RL, then this should be a piece of cake.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 01:30:00 - [192] Originally by: Akita T That's only talking about mitigating factors and possible counter-measures, which was the whole point of people screaming at the OP to HTFU. wot? The differences between w and k space aren't "mitigating" anything. What are you even talking about here? Quote: Granted, the hotdrop thing could be considered an actual problem for 0.0 space regardless of scenario chosen. Still, at best, he'd get one round of kills before he would be dead himself, since if he lights a cyno for a hotdrop, he's DEAD immediately after if the defender was prepared. And if the hotdropper wasn't prepared enough, he might not even get the chance to hotdrop at all, but be destroyed and cyno brought down before "reinforcements" arrive. Still, that's yet another story. Except that AFK cloakers aren't looking to suicide themselves on one kill. Their MO is to without risk choose an engagement, walk away unscathed, lulz, rinse and repeat without ANY risk to them at all. Oh, and dropping covert cynos won't get the cynoer killed either. Quote: The direct comparison would have been: 0.0 -> one mostly-AFK cloaker that never bothers hotdropping anything but just takes out on occasion some miners, to wage psychological warfare and disrupt mining operations W-space -> one unscannable or AKF-cloaked ship in a system with a heavy-duty presence of a mining corp, swooping in and occasionally killing some of the miners, to wage psychological warfare and disrupt mining operations None of the people in any of those scenarios even think about leaving the system nor calling any additional people in. And that's the scenario comparison WE are laughing at. Your second scenario takes more effort and luck to achieve. You can't exactly say "this week I'll afk in xx system to wear down the miners". You will first need to find the right system (ie, big enough to be worth the effort and with plenty of miners, 24/7 residents, stable entrace/exit), basically ALL THE RIGHT CONDITIONS for the lazy cloaker. THAT takes effort and in on itself would discourage most of these lazy cloakers looking for easy kills. On the other hand, your first scenario is EASY and effortless to achieve. Hell, park your cloakie alt and go play with your main while the locals give up in looking for you and give up in buddying up because you're now 3 days in with absolutely no effort and not having to be at the keyboards AT ALL. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
xavier69 Gallente Stark Enterprises LLC	Posted - 2010.10.01 01:32:00 - [193] Make Cloaked Ships Not Show in Local Problem Solved Cov Opt Pilots like myself have been asking for this for over 5 years they only got it right in wormholes there should be no local I really do get tired of reading these whiner threads about cloaks the problem is there implementation and local anyone cloaked shouldn't show in local XOXOXOXO
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 01:35:00 - [194] Originally by: Capt Chaotic I've never posted on here but i read all the time. But i actually have to respond to this. All i see is wah wah wah, change the game for me! FFS Hi Sec is wait for it..........HIGH Security. If you want to feel safe mining whist watching your afk p0rn, stay the **** there. 0.0 Space? OMG! NO Security. If you don't want to mine safely, take your punt here. It's 0 Sec for a reason. Don't blame some guy in a bloody Stealth Bomber for being somewhere he can be wickedly effective. If you want safety, go mine in hi sec. If your rewards are better in low and null with your mining, you take the risk v reward shot like everybody else. We can all adapt or just not go there, why can't you? Also, on the subject of LOCAL.... i say remove it. Why? Because it's fricking SPACE! When i walk into a building i don't know exactly who is there and what there status is when i walk in. Use your scanner and take a punt, that's what the damn thing is there for in the first place! I suppose you want to know who, what and where immediately? How about you just ask CCP to give you an "I need isk" button that you can press every time you want anything? GTFO and go out there and earn it! Improvise, overcome and adapt. This is a GAME, it's not RL. If you can adapt to things in RL, then this should be a piece of cake. You yap about security, safety, hi sec, and risk. God forbid your AFK cloaker is exposed to one iota of risk . Risk should only apply to everyone else, not the AFK cloaker, amirite? And spare me the "once in a blue moon rats will spawn in safes and decloak you" bull****. Now if CCP made this more common . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.10.01 01:43:00 - [195] Originally by: Liang Nuren You know, I never hear threads about AFK cloakers from Wormhole inhabitants. They don't have local. -Liang they come out to null sec alot actually. They pop out the wh, ninjya rat, play hide and seek with the null sec people, then disappear into the wh exit again. true they don't do this in wh space, they just get their kicks in k-space.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.01 03:28:00 - [196] Edited by: Akita T on 01/10/2010 03:32:59 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 The differences between w and k space aren't "mitigating" anything. What are you even talking about here? [...] AFK cloakers aren't looking to suicide themselves on one kill. Their MO is to without risk choose an engagement, walk away unscathed, lulz, rinse and repeat without ANY risk to them at all. Oh, and dropping covert cynos won't get the cynoer killed either. [...] Your second scenario takes more effort and luck to achieve. You can't exactly say "this week I'll afk in xx system to wear down the miners". You will first need to find the right system (ie, big enough to be worth the effort and with plenty of miners, 24/7 residents, stable entrace/exit), basically ALL THE RIGHT CONDITIONS for the lazy cloaker. THAT takes effort and in on itself would discourage most of these lazy cloakers looking for easy kills. On the other hand, your first scenario is EASY and effortless to achieve. Hell, park your cloakie alt and go play with your main while the locals give up in looking for you and give up in buddying up because you're now 3 days in with absolutely no effort and not having to be at the keyboards AT ALL. What I am talking about is that WHILE the "w-space scenario" does indeed require far more effort to get into than the corresponding "0.0 scenario", once you are already in that scenario, there is very little difference. It makes no difference as far as the issue at hand is concerned how difficult it is to get into such a situation. Only what the situation itself means. Simply put, all of that doesn't matter for the purpose of this discussion. The ONLY thing we are talking about is the effects of an alleged AFK cloaker as seen by the inhabitants of the system, and their specific and repeated complaints almost exclusively about the AFK part, NOT the cloaker part. The vast majority of those "effects" are self-inflicted, as an indirect result of their inability to cope with the "psychological warfare" such an individual wages. Sure, a covops cyno won't reveal you, but you can't hotdrop a carrier or any other capital ship with a covops cyno either... in fact, you can't HOTDROP much of anything with a covops cyno. And as soon as he hits a normal cyno, he's toast. Or, if we are talking cynojammed system, that's not relevant, since he can't even drop a regular cyno. Also, the "lazy cloaker" will ALSO find himself with the same problem in the no-local 0.0 scenario - he won't KNOW how many of the locals are around. He might only see a handful of miners wherever he moves, but those miners could be accompanied by dozens or hundreds of "hidden" locals just waiting to ambush the wannabe ambusher instead. Hell, he might search for miners all over the place yet fail to find any at all, and search he would have to, because he would have no local to instantly tell him just how populated the system might be and who might be there at all. How's that as far as slightly more evened out risk-effort-reward ratios go ? And no, you won't be able to "guess where people are" by the map (jumps stats, people online stats, NPC kills stats or whatnot), because those instant gamewide intel features (or at least the short-duration ones) would also have to get removed from the map (or at least have their summing up duration significantly tweaked). _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2010.10.01 03:47:00 - [197] Quote: You yap about security, safety, hi sec, and risk. God forbid your AFK cloaker is exposed to one iota of risk . Risk should only apply to everyone else, not the AFK cloaker, amirite? And spare me the "once in a blue moon rats will spawn in safes and decloak you" bull**. Now if CCP actually made this happen and often.... You totally missed the point the person made. Risk vs reward.. what reward is the AFK.. AFK.. AFK.. afk cloaker getting? Nothing.. most of the time I am parked in a null system afk, I honestly don't give a what people are doing or saying. I just need a break for whatever rl reason without access to any other safe spot. My only reward for using a cloaking device is safety. Turn that * off and my risk goes through the roof. Its not like stealth bombers are loaded with a ton of other defensive options to fall back on, or any other cov-ops capable ship.. save T3, and when you're alone, or even if you aren't.. KM happy humpers will jump at a chance to wipe a T3 from TQ. For what? What rewards does cloaking give? Safety.. cause its a cloaking device designed to do just that! Wow.. the common sense of it all, it's.. sooooo.. unbelievable sound, it can't and shouldn't be real. It's isn't the cloakers fault that people are masochistic by thair mere existence. Going crazy over them.. cloaking. People can *** when a ship can fire and remained cloak at the same time.. till then.. OP, have a ONE attack ship sitting there and chances are the bomber won't do much of anything. Now.. is it fair to the bomber that one single attack vessel positioned with miners pretty much ruins his/her chances for a kill? That ship isn't doing anything, not moving, just sitting there.. probably afk.. scarying the bomber from attacking.. ---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it-
Jodi Goulsti No Salvation	Posted - 2010.10.01 04:43:00 - [198] CCP, FIX AFK CLOAKERS SO I CAN AFK MINE!!!
NewGit Caldari Rusty Industries	Posted - 2010.10.01 05:34:00 - [199] This game is supposed to be about balance. Just about everything in the game has a counter or some aspect that allows you to defend or attack around it. For example, you have ECM jammers and you have ECCM counter measures. Various damage types, various resist types. Fast, lightly armoured ships - slow, heavily armoured ships, and so on. Some mods have timers, some need fuel, some have timers and need fuel. However, cloaks have NO counter to them. There is NO possibility to scan down a cloaked ship. They don't have a timer, they don't use fuel. You can run them cap stable 23/7 and not have a worry in the world that anyone will find you (unless you do something incredibly stupid like sit 2,600 meters from a gate directly in the warp path to another object, or right at the point where belt rats usually warp in). So, if the cloaky wants to sit say, 3,000 meters off a gate (in a safe direction), go afk and leave his screen-monitoring bot on to alert him if any potential targets show up, this is perfectly acceptable ? (And yes, I know for a fact that is what a lot of them do.) There should be a way to scan down cloakers. In fact, it shouldn't be that hard at all. Consider that current scanners detect what ? Ships, starbase structures, anomalies, containers, asteroids, etc. How are they doing these scans ? By detecting what exactly ? Electronic signatures ? Not likely. Light emissions ? Not likely. Metallic content ? (Possibly, except that wouldn't work for WHs and such) So what does a cloak *actually* do ? It deflects light. (Fitting two or more cloaking devices to a ship negates their use, as unsynchronized light deflection causes interference.) It doesn't mask the electronic signature of the ship (would probably increase it in fact). It doesn't make the ship "etheral" and hide the minerals that make up the ship, it's mods and whatever else it is carrying. So why can't they be scanned down ? What CCP should do is either come up with a specialized scanning mod that similar skill levels to use as cloaking devices. Or, make a T2 version of the only frigate class in the game that doesn't have a T2 variant (the mining frigates), adapt their specialized mining bonus to a specialized scanning bonus (do the usual trick, give them a 99% reduced cpu need for the specialized scanning module, so that it would be impossible to fit it to any other ship. Add a new skill or two that would give bonuses to the range/strength of the scanners, etc). This would at least give players the chance to try and hunt down cloakers, and force more of the "afk" cloakers to either actively play or wake up in their clones more often. It would help balance out one aspect of the game that currently doesn't have a counter to it. Other suggestions I've heard in the past included putting a timer on the cloaking devices similar to cyno timers. Or have a fuel requirement. Cloaky runs out of (garbage/soil/homeless/or what ever fuel), cloak deactivates and ship is now vulnerable. As for submarine warfare, one must remember that yes, they were for a time effective at area denial, and forced changes in convoy tactics. That is until methods (and technology) evolved and allowed the hunted to become the hunters. Suddenly submarines spent more time running for their lives than trying to stop convoys. It is time for the cloakies to become the hunted. --------------* If it moves, shoot it. If it doesn't move, mine it.
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2010.10.01 05:41:00 - [200] I bet the same people who claim cloaking is fine as it is are the same ones who harp on about how nothing is safe in Eve. So which is it? You can't have it both ways? Or in the case of cloaking yes actually you can. I like that idea of an anti cloaker ship. Curious to see why people would object to such a ship? Could it be that it would stop their easy safe playing in this supposedly dangerous universe where nothing is supposed to be truly safe?
Nedefeg	Posted - 2010.10.01 05:56:00 - [201] oh my **in god all you people defending permacloaking cant you see the issue is really the permacloakers are the real carebears in this entire ecuation? Assuming no risk or a ver very low laughable risk while asking others to do laughable things to "counter" them? name me one sane person who would actively guard a few hulks in 0.0 instead of doing his thing (making isk , pewing, etc) imho its not about afk or non afk , that argument is irrelevant...it`s about cloaking as it is now . Covops cloake should be probable with maxed skills//bonuses in say 10 minutes....other ships should not be able to fit cloaks entirely On a broader picture , imho , the main issue with EvE pvp is that it`s sooo in easy to avoid fights and sooo **in complicated to force a fight upoin anyone except a ratter or a miner Thats why nano was justly nerfed , thats why dramiels/machs need to be nerfed , thats why cloaks need a serious nerfhammer...not to make 0.0 safer but to make it easyer to kill stuff in 0.0 as things are now..0.0 is either macro CLOAKY ravens , uber-bloby-blobs or nanoed to hell and back roaming crews that are really only catchable by similar nanoed-to-hell-and back roaming crews You all know that if you go out on a roam and the enemy doesnt WANT a fight...you wont get a fight , excepting a few random kills on nubs not watchin intel and people afk rating.Everyone will be cloaked up , docked up or buzzing @ 400km with omfg km/s in dramiels....
Nedefeg	Posted - 2010.10.01 06:03:00 - [202] Originally by: Liang Nuren You know, I never hear threads about AFK cloakers from Wormhole inhabitants. They don't have local. -Liang Everyone mentions wh`s and uses that as an argument for removin local in 0.0 Now liang , answer me , how many people will bother PvE`ing 0.0 with no local assuming rewards remain the same? Imho , only masochistic ones will stay. Any nerf to 0.0 PvE as it is (sacrificing 2 accounts to pve with 1 , guard with other , nerfing fits to be PvP ready , etc , will drop your income lvls below empire . AT that point ...people will just farm empire with alts ANd you guys are still dodging this question: Is it reasonable for someone in 0.0 to take offensive action against someone else (argue all you want that afk cloakers arent there to take offensive action , you and me both know that argument is bull****) without ANY risk whatsoever to himself? as i`m typing this i`m at work...eve on a flash drive...just checking 3 accnts every hours or so to refresh probes (thanks god company has nice PC`s eh? i`m tellin you noone `s runin sanctums in the systems i`m in . I know cause i`m cloaked @ 400km from them...and will be jabered if someone actually logs in to run them...and will likely find 5 min to kill them
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.01 06:14:00 - [203] Well mining is still doable with one red SB in local if you got a zealot to guard your mining op, which isnt too unreasonable. With two red SBs in local you cant mine anymore and the mining index will just drop to zero: since two bombs will kill any mining ship afaik, and a zealot isnt going to do anything about that. And dont come with crap like staying alligned, it is completely unreasonable to expect a miner to be alligned all the time while the afk cloaker is completely risk free hanging in space. And that is what it all comes down to, afk cloakers are scared of any risk in eve.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.01 06:55:00 - [204] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Venkul Mul They have been nerfed, don't you remember? i got 150 MILLION units of tritanium from 2 hauler spawns. Nerfed? Quote: You appear to be forgetting the existence of loot drops, hauler spawns and drone alloys (throughout the drone regions and in missions in highsec). The bolded sources of minerals have been nerfed. Evidently CCP "forgot" to nerf haulers spawns as a non-mining source of minerals. Stupid to leave that kind of gift around but they always fear to nerf 0.0 too much, even when it would be only logical (the intention of the change was to make mining the main source of minerals).
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.01 06:57:00 - [205] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Cloak = pvp flag. /sits back and grabs popcorn This. So-called "PVPers" defend this ship because: a) It allows them to PVP to virtually ZERO risk to themselves. True, although not in the way that you mean. I (and others) tried to start a discussion on how they could deal with the cloakers themselves, but that was completely ignored. That tells you what the real problem is here; it's relatively simple to counter, but the OP et al don't want to counter it, they just want it to stop altogether and are trying to complain it away. Therefore there is little risk to the cloaker that they'll actually try and do anything about him, despite the fact that it's quite possible to do so (counter-bomber, cloaked dictor, sniper BC, etc etc). If they dont even try, he experiences "zero risk"... Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.01 06:59:00 - [206] Originally by: NewGit This game is supposed to be about balance. Just about everything in the game has a counter or some aspect that allows you to defend or attack around it. For example, you have ECM jammers and you have ECCM counter measures. Various damage types, various resist types. Fast, lightly armoured ships - slow, heavily armoured ships, and so on. Some mods have timers, some need fuel, some have timers and need fuel. However, cloaks have NO counter to them. Here's a novel idea : maybe the balance is in the fact that IT CAN DEAL NO DAMAGE UNLESS HE DROPS CLOAK FIRST. And being cloaked and AFK is (save for the PURELY PSYCHOLOGICAL ramifications) practically identical to being logged off. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.01 07:01:00 - [207] Originally by: Lillith Starfire I bet the same people who claim cloaking is fine as it is are the same ones who harp on about how nothing is safe in Eve. So which is it? You can't have it both ways? Or in the case of cloaking yes actually you can. I like that idea of an anti cloaker ship. Curious to see why people would object to such a ship? Could it be that it would stop their easy safe playing in this supposedly dangerous universe where nothing is supposed to be truly safe? Have you ever actually flown a bomber? Put a fitting in to EFT and see how many EHP they have, then tell me that they're "safe" to fly. Wait, you are aware that they have to uncloak to actually do anything, right? You do know they cant shoot while cloaked? And that if they're targeted by anything, they can't re-cloak? Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.10.01 07:38:00 - [208] WTF is this ****. 0.0 is supposed to be dangerous, and yet you think you should be able to happily carebear away without taking any defensive measures at all? Remove local, that solves the local problem. To mitigate the hotdrop problem, give cyno jumps/jump bridges a 30-60 second "in transit" feature - your bait frig lights the cyno, you can jump or bridge immediately but you don't appear in your destination system until 30-60 seconds have passed. If the target cyno gets popped during this time, you get scattered about the destination system in random safespots.
Talaan Stardrifter Universal Exports	Posted - 2010.10.01 07:42:00 - [209] This topic is being trolled, but for my final words: Originally by: NewGit This game is supposed to be about balance. Just about everything in the game has a counter or some aspect that allows you to defend or attack around it. For example, you have ECM jammers and you have ECCM counter measures. Various damage types, various resist types. Fast, lightly armoured ships - slow, heavily armoured ships, and so on. ECCM is the counter to ECM ECCM can be disabled by Cap Warfare (Neuts) Cloak is a counter to Probes Cloak can be disabled by proximity (2000m) Active cloak removes all capability of user to interact with the world, including other ships. (exceptions are pre-fired probes, and d-scan) Active cloak removes all capability for world to interact with the user, except proximity. I may have considered removing d-scan from a cloaked ship, if this argument had gone better. As it stands, cloaks are balanced. The problem is in the eye (Local) of the beholder.
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.10.01 08:07:00 - [210] Originally by: NewGit This game is supposed to be about balance. However, cloaks have NO counter to them. wrong. sit down. the cloak itself is the counter to itself. it renders your ship [almost] perfectly safe, and [almost] perfectly useless. what is this "scan down a cloaker" thing you keep talking about? this isn't Star Trek: Nemesis and you can't use Counselor Troi to help you track a ship. and furthermore, if you are upset about the AFK Cloakers interrupting your activities, why the hell would you want to track them down? don't you want to be mining or ratting or anything-elsing instead? IF... IF, you could track a cloak, it better be DARN TOOTIN' HARD to do so. you gonna spend a few hours tracking an AFK Cloaker down? oh i see what you want. you want a module that will give you an instant win. based on your false perception of their module giving them an instant win. the "win" doesn't come from the module. it comes from you being paranoid. simple and honest truth. and the rest of you guys need to stop the Remove Local debate. it's been going on for years. and it's not even a solution for anything but your paranoia. the local channel is generated by the stargate that you use to jump in (kinda assuming this, but). if you want no local channel, then go to W-Space. as long as you are in a system that can have sovereignty, you'll have local. leave your e-mail here and i'll send you a WoW trial... aroo
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.01 08:16:00 - [211] Originally by: flummox and the rest of you guys need to stop the Remove Local debate. it's been going on for years. and it's not even a solution for anything but your paranoia. the local channel is generated by the stargate that you use to jump in (kinda assuming this, but). if you want no local channel, then go to W-Space. as long as you are in a system that can have sovereignty, you'll have local. DEAL ! But only if coming into any system without using a stargate makes me NOT show up in local. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
NewGit Caldari Rusty Industries	Posted - 2010.10.01 09:28:00 - [212] Originally by: Talaan Stardrifter This topic is being trolled, but for my final words: Cloak is a counter to Probes Cloak can be disabled by proximity (2000m) I would have to disagree (in part). Yes, a cloak could be considered counter to probes, but "proximity" is not a counter to cloak. You have a better chance of popping a dread with an Ibis than you do of decloaking someone by proximity (for those that are smart enough to sit far enough away to avoid random traffic). The chances of getting a probe within 2.5kms of a cloaked ship, in the trillions of square kms that make up each system ? My bet is on the Ibis. I regularly set up safe spots that are millions of kms away from anything. If the cloaker sits at one of those spots, what are the chances he will be decloaked by proximity ? I think lag will be a long forgotten nightmare before anyone was able to get within 2.5km of him. (Yeah, he wouldn't be of much use to his corpies sitting out there, but it does cause havoc for the locals. And if he's bored and decides to actually play that 'toon, he can simply warped cloaked to other safe spots that are more "useful", content in the knowledge that it would be virtually impossible to find him.) Originally by: Talaan Stardrifter Active cloak removes all capability of user to interact with the world, including other ships. (exceptions are pre-fired probes, and d-scan) Active cloak removes all capability for world to interact with the user, except proximity. So the cloaker can't scout/spy/(verbally) designate targets and when the time is ripe, drop a covert cyno and hot-drop a few friends in ? (I'll know better about the cyno in 16 days, 23 hours) :-) We have tried on numerous occasions to track down lone cloakers. Squads of inties, HICs, drones, warp bubbles, FPS "scanning". About the only method that worked was "bait ship". Some poor sucker out there in a juicy target, hoping the fleet will be able to warp in before the cloaker can cyno his buddies in and pop him. Not always effective as usually the cloaker just cloaks up and disappears again. (Note: I use cloaky ships a lot. SBs, Cranes, Buzzards. Probably try out some Recons and BO ships soon, maybe in another 16+ days.) --------------* If it moves, shoot it. If it doesn't move, mine it.
Doddy Aliastra	Posted - 2010.10.01 10:58:00 - [213] So, instead of having 10 mining accounts could you not have 9 mining accounts and 1 pvp account and not have a problem? Of course it is a lot harder to automate a claw than a hulk isn't it? Also 50 warrior 2s will murder a stealthbomber quite satisfyingly. Final point is that the player is quite possibly not afk, but is just waiting and watching. If he is not afk why should he be penalised just for being patient?
Doddy Aliastra	Posted - 2010.10.01 11:00:00 - [214] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: flummox and the rest of you guys need to stop the Remove Local debate. it's been going on for years. and it's not even a solution for anything but your paranoia. the local channel is generated by the stargate that you use to jump in (kinda assuming this, but). if you want no local channel, then go to W-Space. as long as you are in a system that can have sovereignty, you'll have local. DEAL ! But only if coming into any system without using a stargate makes me NOT show up in local. This, by flummox's logic entering a system through cyno, covert cyno or wormhole should not make you show in local, which would be fine by me.
Doddy Aliastra	Posted - 2010.10.01 11:11:00 - [215] The solution of course is to extend the cycle time of cloaks and remove auto-repeat. If the cloaker has to reactivate the cloak every 5 or 10 mins he isn't afk. Of course in the interest of fairness the autorepeat function would also be removed from all mining lasers to ensure they aren't afk either.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 11:54:00 - [216] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 01/10/2010 11:55:05 Originally by: Doddy The solution of course is to extend the cycle time of cloaks and remove auto-repeat. If the cloaker has to reactivate the cloak every 5 or 10 mins he isn't afk. Of course in the interest of fairness the autorepeat function would also be removed from all mining lasers to ensure they aren't afk either. This is actually a sensible idea. It gets rid of AFKers from all directions. I like. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
heheheh Phoenix Club	Posted - 2010.10.01 11:57:00 - [217] If your too afk to spot the cyno then thats your fault.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.10.01 12:00:00 - [218] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 This is actually a sensible idea. It gets rid of AFKers from all directions. I like. Cept AFK Sentry Domi's! -- Fine Mag's no Purple ok! But I am the Snyper Queen!
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.01 12:45:00 - [219] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 01/10/2010 11:55:05 Originally by: Doddy The solution of course is to extend the cycle time of cloaks and remove auto-repeat. If the cloaker has to reactivate the cloak every 5 or 10 mins he isn't afk. Of course in the interest of fairness the autorepeat function would also be removed from all mining lasers to ensure they aren't afk either. This is actually a sensible idea. It gets rid of AFKers from all directions. I like. Luckily, it is literally unthinkable that anyone would use some kind of automated device or application to evade this restriction. Oh wait I just thought of it. Oh well, back to the drawing board. What about this old favourite: CCP should double the rate at which subscribed time is used up when you're cloaked LOL! Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 13:02:00 - [220] Originally by: Malcanis Luckily, it is literally unthinkable that anyone would use some kind of automated device or application to evade this restriction. Oh wait I just thought of it. Oh well, back to the drawing board. What about this old favourite: CCP should double the rate at which subscribed time is used up when you're cloaked LOL! You realize that there is a difference between AFK play and macro play, dontcha? And that even though this "fix" would do nothing against macroers it could curb AFK play, even if a little bit? Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.01 13:14:00 - [221] Edited by: Akita T on 01/10/2010 13:16:47 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Doddy The solution of course is to extend the cycle time of cloaks and remove auto-repeat. If the cloaker has to reactivate the cloak every 5 or 10 mins he isn't afk. Of course in the interest of fairness the autorepeat function would also be removed from all mining lasers to ensure they aren't afk either. This is actually a sensible idea. It gets rid of AFKers from all directions. I like. giantdoubletacticalfacepalm.jpg Yes, it is oh-so-sensible to have to be forced to decloak even for a split second while, say, you're watching a gatecamp, because we all know how friendly everybody seems to be in such a situation. It's also something nobody would ever think to automate either, because clicking a button when something very specific and easily observed happens. Oh, indeed, extremely sensible. Why didn't anybody think of that before ? Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 You realize that there is a difference between AFK play and macro play, dontcha? And that even though this "fix" would do nothing against macroers it could curb AFK play, even if a little bit? Oh, hey, yeah, SURE, let's make it so that in order to make a valid gameplay style continue working properly without having everybody on edge about that damn automatic deactivation we basically almost BEG all people that use a cloak to start using macros so they won't periodically be caught with their pants down. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 13:41:00 - [222] Originally by: Akita T Oh, hey, yeah, SURE, let's make it so that in order to make a valid gameplay style continue working properly without having everybody on edge about that damn automatic deactivation we basically almost BEG all people that use a cloak to start using macros so they won't periodically be caught with their pants down. God forbid cloakers are exposed to any risk. Wouldn't want that PVP flag to force them into PVP without they first consenting to it . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.01 14:15:00 - [223] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Akita T Oh, hey, yeah, SURE, let's make it so that in order to make a valid gameplay style continue working properly without having everybody on edge about that damn automatic deactivation we basically almost BEG all people that use a cloak to start using macros so they won't periodically be caught with their pants down. God forbid cloakers are exposed to any risk. Wouldn't want that PVP flag to force them into PVP without they first consenting to it . Yup, yup, hey, while you're at it, why don't we have guns deactivating randomly without running out of ammo, why don't we have all ewar mods (ESPECIALLY warp scramblers) not allow autorepeat either, and how about having to reanchor bubbles every 1 hour or else they stop working ? You know what, just REMOVE the "autorepeat" option altogether, have everybody have to push a button every time anything runs a cycle ! Any more brilliant ideas ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 14:19:00 - [224] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Akita T Oh, hey, yeah, SURE, let's make it so that in order to make a valid gameplay style continue working properly without having everybody on edge about that damn automatic deactivation we basically almost BEG all people that use a cloak to start using macros so they won't periodically be caught with their pants down. God forbid cloakers are exposed to any risk. Wouldn't want that PVP flag to force them into PVP without they first consenting to it . Yup, yup, hey, while you're at it, why don't we have guns deactivating randomly without running out of ammo, why don't we have all ewar mods (ESPECIALLY warp scramblers) not allow autorepeat either, and how about having to reanchor bubbles every 1 hour or else they stop working ? You know what, just REMOVE the "autorepeat" option altogether, have everybody have to push a button every time anything runs a cycle ! Any more brilliant ideas ? Hey, while you're on your way to your Slipper Slope Land what exactly do you have against CCP logging you off automatically after being AFK for 30/60 minutes? Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Henri Rearden Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.01 14:43:00 - [225] Part of the reason this presents is a problem is corp/alliance policy. In an effort to curb lossmails, a lot of corps/alliances make it manditory to safe-up when neuts/reds are in-system. We've had a lot of cloakers (often three at a time) in our primary systems lately, and it gets annoying. I'm not sure that they've actually gotten any kills, but they're fulfilling their role very well. At any rate, my playtime is too short and valuable to run around the system trying to find a safed-up cloaker, and so I usually end up switching to a Thrasher and running low-end anomalies. I log in to actively play and make progress, not to sit and wait as bait for someone who probably won't come or wait in station til somebody gets more bored than I am. That's not fun, that sucks. This is one of the many reasons why I'm seriously looking at Star Wars: The Old Republic as an alternative to EVE when it comes out, I just don't have time for stuff like this. NOTE: Just for the trolls...I didn't say it should be changed - I said it's not fun. I know it's a valid military tactic and I respect that, as much as I also respect those so learned in modern history that they are able to make comparisons to submarine warfare. That being said, I don't like it and don't want to waste my limited time on it.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.10.01 14:43:00 - [226] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 what exactly do you have against CCP logging you off automatically after being AFK for 30/60 minutes? You do realise I can bypass this real easy and not even break the EULA. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.01 14:45:00 - [227] Omg, the ammount of 0.0 carebear tears in here is huge. HTFU folks, an SB is no threat if you got any kind of brains. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Jodi Goulsti No Salvation	Posted - 2010.10.01 14:52:00 - [228] Originally by: Henri Rearden Part of the reason this presents is a problem is corp/alliance policy. In an effort to curb lossmails, a lot of corps/alliances make it manditory to safe-up when neuts/reds are in-system. We've had a lot of cloakers (often three at a time) in our primary systems lately, and it gets annoying. It sounds like you need a new corp/alliance.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 14:52:00 - [229] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 what exactly do you have against CCP logging you off automatically after being AFK for 30/60 minutes? You do realise I can bypass this real easy and not even break the EULA. I'm sure this change won't end up curing cancer. I'm not suggesting it will. But it will make it just that much more difficult for lazy AFK cloakers to do it. Yes, some will go the macro route. These are the types of players (the ones usually *****ing about macro miners, by the way ) to cheat and take the easiest route possible to "collect tears". But it will end up discouraging some as well. It's a start and would help a bit. I'm sure AFK cloakers and their mains will be up in arms about not being able to go AFK for days at a time . And they'll complain how CCP is adding risk to them when they feel "all their risk are belong to their prey!11", not themselves. But as they spew, Eve is a game of risk. It's about time they faced some. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.10.01 14:58:00 - [230] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Seemingly in a rage and missing my point. I said it could be bypassed very easily, without breaking the EULA. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:00:00 - [231] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Seemingly in a rage and missing my point. I said it could be bypassed very easily, without breaking the EULA. And I said that's fine. It won't discourage EVERYONE to stop doing it. But it will still help a bit. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Marli Khan	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:17:00 - [232] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 01/10/2010 14:59:40 Originally by: Mag's Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 what exactly do you have against CCP logging you off automatically after being AFK for 30/60 minutes? You do realise I can bypass this real easy and not even break the EULA. I'm sure this change won't end up curing cancer. I'm not suggesting it will. But it will make it just that much more difficult for lazy AFK cloakers to do it. Yes, some will go the macro route. These are the types of players (the ones usually *****ing about macro miners, by the way ) to cheat and take the easiest route possible to "collect tears". But it will end up discouraging some as well. It's a start and would help a bit. Another idea would be to automatically decloak them after being AFK for 30-60 minutes. But alas, the tears would prolly deafen the forums. I'm sure AFK cloakers and their mains will be up in arms about not being able to go AFK for days at a time . And they'll complain how CCP is adding risk to them when they feel "all their risk are belong to their prey!11", not themselves. But as they spew, Eve is a game of risk. It's about time they faced some. I'm so confused. You're upset because someone who is AFK faces zero risk? You realize that someone who is AFK also poses zero threat, right?
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:26:00 - [233] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 01/10/2010 15:31:05 Originally by: Marli Khan Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 01/10/2010 14:59:40 Originally by: Mag's Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 what exactly do you have against CCP logging you off automatically after being AFK for 30/60 minutes? You do realise I can bypass this real easy and not even break the EULA. I'm sure this change won't end up curing cancer. I'm not suggesting it will. But it will make it just that much more difficult for lazy AFK cloakers to do it. Yes, some will go the macro route. These are the types of players (the ones usually *****ing about macro miners, by the way ) to cheat and take the easiest route possible to "collect tears". But it will end up discouraging some as well. It's a start and would help a bit. Another idea would be to automatically decloak them after being AFK for 30-60 minutes. But alas, the tears would prolly deafen the forums. I'm sure AFK cloakers and their mains will be up in arms about not being able to go AFK for days at a time . And they'll complain how CCP is adding risk to them when they feel "all their risk are belong to their prey!11", not themselves. But as they spew, Eve is a game of risk. It's about time they faced some. I'm so confused. You're upset because someone who is AFK faces zero risk? You realize that someone who is AFK also poses zero threat, right? You're confused because your definition of an AFK cloaker isn't complete. An AFK cloaker isn't someone that just cloaks up and goes AFK, end of story. If this were the case there wouldn't be any problem whatsoever. An AFK cloaker is someone that cloaks up, goes AFK with the intention of returning back (1 or 2 days later, sometimes more) to look for miners and ratters that have given up searching for him while he was AFK. He forces everyone else to remain vigilant and with risk (since no one knows when he'll be back from being AFK) while he himself isn't influenced by anything. So an AFK cloaker gets to influence how others play (perfectly legitimate) while he himself isn't influenced by any decision any player makes. THIS is what is questionable gameplay. By the way, while I agree that miners and ratters should ALWAYS be on their toes while in space that same principle should apply to the AFK cloaker. As it is now an AFK cloaker can go watch a movie, go to sleep, or go to school, while keeping the rest of the system on alert while he himself doesn't need to be AT ALL. THAT isn't balance. That's just one side lulzing while the other side is forced to remain vigilant. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:30:00 - [234] Edited by: baltec1 on 01/10/2010 15:32:04 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Akita T Oh, hey, yeah, SURE, let's make it so that in order to make a valid gameplay style continue working properly without having everybody on edge about that damn automatic deactivation we basically almost BEG all people that use a cloak to start using macros so they won't periodically be caught with their pants down. God forbid cloakers are exposed to any risk. Wouldn't want that PVP flag to force them into PVP without they first consenting to it . Clearly you have never tried to solo in a bomber. Anything with a dronebay capable of launching 5 light drones is a massive threat to a bomber. Last time I looked, just about every ship in EVE falls into that catagory. The cloak is the only advantage I get while you have insta intel local, buffer, drones and more than likely guns/missiles on top of that as well as whoever else is in local to call in for help. You have so much going for you there is no way a single bomber should be able to get away with kills. The fact that us bomber pilots do get away with it is simply because of your own incompetence and us taking massive risks.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:37:00 - [235] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 01/10/2010 15:39:55 Originally by: baltec1 Clearly you have never tried to solo in a bomber. Anything with a dronebay capable of launching 5 light drones is a massive threat to a bomber. Last time I looked, just about every ship in EVE falls into that catagory. The cloak is the only advantage I get while you have insta intel local, buffer, drones and more than likely guns/missiles on top of that as well as whoever else is in local to call in for help. You have so much going for you there is no way a single bomber should be able to get away with kills. The fact that us bomber pilots do get away with it is simply because of your own incompetence and us tanking massive risks. 1. I'm not just talking about lone stealth bombers. If that were the case, yes, I'd agree that their use would be very limited. But it can be a group of 2,3,4, etc, all safed up and AFK wearing down a system. 2. Bombers aren't the only class of cloakers. Other cloakers are quite capable of taking down a better variety of ships. Add 2 or 3 alt cloakers into the mix and yes, they can be quite dangerous, and surprise surprise, with no risk to themselves. Cloakers choose the engagement. They choose where they fight, how they fight, when they fight, etc. It's like a PVP flag... You know the kind... The one PVPers hate because it makes PVP consensual? 3. Covert cynos. I'm not against these. Just sayin' they carry quite the sting in favor of cloakies. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:38:00 - [236] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 1. I'm not just talking about lone stealth bombers. If that were the case, yes, I'd agree that their use would be very limited. But it can be a group of 2,3,4, etc, all safed up and AFK wearing down a system. 2. Bombers aren't the only class of cloakers. Other cloakers are quite capable of taking down a better variety of ships. Add 2 or 3 alt cloakers into the mix and yes, they can be quite dangerous. 3. Covert cynos. I'm not against these. Just sayin' they carry quite the sting in favor of cloakies. So set a trap?
AFK Master AFK Chartered System Management	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:42:00 - [237] So what you're saying is, you've lost the argument and now want to talk about gangs of AFK pilots and cynos. This all boils down to fear and intelligence. You fear me in local and are not clever enough to use another system.
Feyona Locus Industries	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:44:00 - [238] A new take on the old 'afk cloakers' troll... I like it!
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:51:00 - [239] Originally by: baltec1 So set a trap? This only works the for the minutes they decide to actually pay attention to the screen. An AFK cloaker AFK for 2 or 3 days, you don't know when he'll make the attack, but rest assured HE WILL. Do the math. You're forcing players to spend time on a trap for someone that may or may not take the bait. Why should active players at the keyboard PAYING FULL ATTENTION be the only ones to have to work to try and mitigate the influence of a player that isn't paying attention and that eventually WILL attack? Why shouldn't the cloaker have to put in some work too? If yo'ure logged in and in space then you should either have to face some risk like everyone else or be automatically logged off. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Hauling Hal	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:54:00 - [240] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: baltec1 So set a trap? This only works the for the minutes they decide to actually pay attention to the screen. An AFK cloaker AFK for 2 or 3 days, you don't know when he'll make the attack, but rest assured HE WILL. Do the math. You're forcing players to spend time on a trap for someone that may or may not take the bait. Why should active players at the keyboard PAYING FULL ATTENTION be the only ones to have to work to try and mitigate the influence of a player that isn't paying attention and that eventually WILL attack? Why shouldn't the cloaker have to put in some work too? If yo'ure logged in and in space then you should either have to face some risk like everyone else or be automatically logged off. Err, so you can do your activities with no risk? See the irony here?
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:55:00 - [241] Originally by: AFK Master So what you're saying is, you've lost the argument and now want to talk about gangs of AFK pilots and cynos. This all boils down to fear and intelligence. You fear me in local and are not clever enough to use another system. It's about AFK cloakers spewing "RISK FOR U!11" while praying CCP doesnt' take their PVP flags away. And lulz at your comment about me losing the argument . You haven't brought up a single reason why AFK cloakers SHOULDN'T have to face risk like the rest of 0.0 dwellers. You keep spewing this is a game of risk and PVP, except when it come to yourself, that is. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
AFK Master AFK Chartered System Management	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:59:00 - [242] The risk comes to both, when I engage in combat. The rest is in your head.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:00:00 - [243] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 01/10/2010 16:01:54 Originally by: Hauling Hal Err, so you can do your activities with no risk? See the irony here? You're trying hard and STILL getting nowhere. NOWHERE I'm a suggesting the risk for miners, ratters, or whoever be lessened. WHAT I AM suggesting is that cloakers, you know, the ones that don't pay attention for days at a time, either are logged off automatically or are forced to pay attention like everyone else in 0.0. I have ZERO PROBLEMS with a cloaker stalking prey for hours even days AS LONG AS HE HIMSELF is paying attention and watching out, not at the movies eating popcorn forcing his prey to tire out. That's just lazy play. Originally by: AFK Master The risk comes to both, when I engage in combat. The rest is in your head. Dude, now I know you're just trolling me. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Simetraz	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:03:00 - [244] I want to thank CCP for the next patch which will be giving us the ability to probe out cloaked ships. I understand it will only get me within 200-300 km from the cloaked ship but that is perfectly fine. I have lots of time on my hands and if the cloaked ship is foolish enough to go afk and/or not pay attention they will get what they deserve. Thanks again for your support.
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:05:00 - [245] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: flummox and the rest of you guys need to stop the Remove Local debate. it's been going on for years. and it's not even a solution for anything but your paranoia. the local channel is generated by the stargate that you use to jump in (kinda assuming this, but). if you want no local channel, then go to W-Space. as long as you are in a system that can have sovereignty, you'll have local. DEAL ! But only if coming into any system without using a stargate makes me NOT show up in local. being in a system... with a stargate... generates your name... in local chat... a system... with the ability... to have sovereignty... generates a list... of players in that system... regardless of how you enter... they created completely safe, non-local chat space for all the people who didn't like local chat in their 0.0. it's called wormhole space. i suggest you guys go use that if you want to [semi]afk mine or rat or touch yourself. you may also afk touch yourself in low and high sec space. see if you can do that in all 5000+ systems. pics or it didn't happen... aroo
AFK CEO	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:06:00 - [246] Master, stop with the mind games, you're upsetting the kids.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:06:00 - [247] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: baltec1 So set a trap? This only works the for the minutes they decide to actually pay attention to the screen. An AFK cloaker AFK for 2 or 3 days, you don't know when he'll make the attack, but rest assured HE WILL. Do the math. You're forcing players to spend time on a trap for someone that may or may not take the bait. Why should active players at the keyboard PAYING FULL ATTENTION be the only ones to have to work to try and mitigate the influence of a player that isn't paying attention and that eventually WILL attack? Why shouldn't the cloaker have to put in some work too? If yo'ure logged in and in space then you should either have to face some risk like everyone else or be automatically logged off. So you don't rat in a fleet then? or have pvp ships ready and waiting in station? Ok well if you cannot be bothered in taking steps to have a fleet waiting to respond to calls for help how about keeping alingned to station/safe/pos? Cant kill anything that runs the second I pop up.
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:12:00 - [248] Originally by: Marli Khan I'm so flummoxed. You're upset because someone who is AFK faces zero risk? You realize that someone who is AFK also poses zero threat, right? no, man. i trully think they don't realize it... 8) aroo
BlondieBC Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Missions	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:19:00 - [249] Originally by: Furb Killer Well mining is still doable with one red SB in local if you got a zealot to guard your mining op, which isnt too unreasonable. With two red SBs in local you cant mine anymore and the mining index will just drop to zero: since two bombs will kill any mining ship afaik, and a zealot isnt going to do anything about that. And dont come with crap like staying alligned, it is completely unreasonable to expect a miner to be alligned all the time while the afk cloaker is completely risk free hanging in space. And that is what it all comes down to, afk cloakers are scared of any risk in eve. With two invulernabilty fields II, Sheild Extender, Damage Control, a hulk can take 8 to 11 Bombs. Two SB can be laughed at. If a fleet has a Zealot, a shield logistics, and 8 hulks, it can laugh at 3 to 5 bombers, all day long.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:21:00 - [250] Originally by: baltec1 So you don't rat in a fleet then? or have pvp ships ready and waiting in station? Ok well if you cannot be bothered in taking steps to have a fleet waiting to respond to calls for help how about keeping alingned to station/safe/pos? Cant kill anything that runs the second I pop up. And what do you suggest we do to keep cloakers paying attention to the game as well ? Or should paying attention only apply to your targets? Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
BlondieBC Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Missions	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:22:00 - [251] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: flummox and the rest of you guys need to stop the Remove Local debate. it's been going on for years. and it's not even a solution for anything but your paranoia. the local channel is generated by the stargate that you use to jump in (kinda assuming this, but). if you want no local channel, then go to W-Space. as long as you are in a system that can have sovereignty, you'll have local. DEAL ! But only if coming into any system without using a stargate makes me NOT show up in local. AND, if i remain in local while logged, AND, i stay in local until i cross the next stargate. This idea actually makes sense. Then local is an important intel tool, but a limited, imperfect one.
Fouljin	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:24:00 - [252] If you or your corp is doing some relaxing mining and a enemy stealth bombers warps in and cloaks and you run to your mama and cry why not counter that cloaky camping bomber with it's own medicine. All you need is a small fleet of your own stealthbomber and start launcing some bombs to that belt you think enemy is. Sure bombs are expensive but it's only isk! Also bring some tacklers / firepower in case the enemy desides to be stupid and fight back. If you dont have corp or alliance big or good enough to protect your belts and pilots, you are doing something wrong! No means to offend! Roses are #FF0000, Violets are ##0000FF, all my base are belong to you...
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:26:00 - [253] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: baltec1 So you don't rat in a fleet then? or have pvp ships ready and waiting in station? Ok well if you cannot be bothered in taking steps to have a fleet waiting to respond to calls for help how about keeping alingned to station/safe/pos? Cant kill anything that runs the second I pop up. And what do you suggest we do to keep cloakers paying attention to the game as well ? Or should paying attention only apply to your targets? If you go ratting in a fleet it doesnt matter if they are afk or not. So long as you dont fail fit a bunch of drakes is more than enough to get rid of anthing that can warp cloaked.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:35:00 - [254] Originally by: Nedefeg Originally by: Liang Nuren You know, I never hear threads about AFK cloakers from Wormhole inhabitants. They don't have local. -Liang Everyone mentions wh`s and uses that as an argument for removin local in 0.0 Now liang , answer me , how many people will bother PvE`ing 0.0 with no local assuming rewards remain the same? My guess is that virtually all of them but the really risk averse will stay in 0.0. I mean, why wouldn't they stay and drink massive amounts of ISK from the ISK faucet? Quote: ANd you guys are still dodging this question: Is it reasonable for someone in 0.0 to take offensive action against someone else (argue all you want that afk cloakers arent there to take offensive action , you and me both know that argument is bull***) without ANY risk whatsoever to himself? Please note that people being AFK in station and AFK at POSes are exactly* equal to AFK cloakers. If I'm in your system terrorizing your miners, it is unfair that you should have backup that I cannot know if is coming to help save you. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:38:00 - [255] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 01/10/2010 16:40:17 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: baltec1 So you don't rat in a fleet then? or have pvp ships ready and waiting in station? Ok well if you cannot be bothered in taking steps to have a fleet waiting to respond to calls for help how about keeping alingned to station/safe/pos? Cant kill anything that runs the second I pop up. And what do you suggest we do to keep cloakers paying attention to the game as well ? Or should paying attention only apply to your targets? If you go ratting in a fleet it doesnt matter if they are afk or not. So long as you dont fail fit a bunch of drakes is more than enough to get rid of anthing that can warp cloaked. And you're avoiding the question. The ratters are in a well-protected fleet, the miners are in a well-protected fleet as they should be. What is the cloaker having to sacrifice to stay alive? What predator is hunting him with even a slim chance of catching him? Who is HE worried will hunt him down if he's not paying attention while he watches pron? . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:42:00 - [256] Originally by: Liang Nuren Please note that people being AFK in station and AFK at POSes are exactly equal to AFK cloakers. All I can say to this is.... Wow . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:46:00 - [257] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 01/10/2010 16:40:17 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: baltec1 So you don't rat in a fleet then? or have pvp ships ready and waiting in station? Ok well if you cannot be bothered in taking steps to have a fleet waiting to respond to calls for help how about keeping alingned to station/safe/pos? Cant kill anything that runs the second I pop up. And what do you suggest we do to keep cloakers paying attention to the game as well ? Or should paying attention only apply to your targets? If you go ratting in a fleet it doesnt matter if they are afk or not. So long as you dont fail fit a bunch of drakes is more than enough to get rid of anthing that can warp cloaked. And you're avoiding the question. The ratters are in a well-protected fleet, the miners are in a well-protected fleet as they should be. What is the cloaker having to sacrifice to stay alive? What predator is hunting him with even a slim chance of catching him? Who is HE worried will hunt him down if he's not paying attention while he watches pron? . The attacker cannot attack you without getting killed or driven off? What exactly are the well protected miners/ratters losing with him in local unable to do anything? The answer we are looking at is nothing at all while the AFK cloaker is not getting anything done. So in the end the one who loses out is the guy who is AFK and they get nothing from being there.
Gashblight	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:47:00 - [258] I didn't read all nine pages so forgive me if I'm repeating what's already been said but this comes off like an afk miner is *****ing about an afk pvp pilot and the irony is lol. If you're not afk mining (lol sure) then you don't need 23/7 CAP. You only need protection while you're mining Op is under way and the stealth pilot will ether have to call in his fleet and try his luck against your defense, or go looking for an easier target. The amount of time he spends in system outside of your mining operation is irrelevant. I'm stoked someone takes the effort to disrupt afk mining to be honest. All this I don't care if he's cloaked as long as he's really there is a huge pile of BS. Like any miner sits and watches the beams of light while they mine. If this thread isn't nine pages of people ridiculing the OP then I'm disappointed.
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:49:00 - [259] Originally by: Gashblight If this thread isn't nine pages of people ridiculing the OP then I'm disappointed. it is. smile 8) aroo
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:54:00 - [260] Wait.. mineral prices are already falling because of oversupply and the miners want even more protection? Lol?!
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:55:00 - [261] Originally by: baltec1 The attacker cannot attack you without getting killed or driven off? What exactly are the well protected miners/ratters losing with him in local unable to do anything? The answer we are looking at is nothing at all while the AFK cloaker is not getting anything done. So in the end the one who loses out is the guy who is AFK as they get nothing from being there. The attacker, in this case, has ALL THE CHOICES AND NONE OF THE RISKS. While the other side has to accomodate and prepare for WHATEVER CHOICE the cloaker makes. In space the cloaker FORCES everyone to be in high alert while no one can force the cloaker to be in high alert. The cloaker CHOOSES who, when, where, how he attacks. And the attack is only made when the cloaker ticks his PVP flag on, not any second before. If the miner isn't ready tough luck. If the cloaker isn't ready... well then, hang on a minute or two, or three, or a day or two . That's not balance. That's a PVP flag. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.01 17:15:00 - [262] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 The attacker, in this case, has ALL THE CHOICES AND NONE OF THE RISKS. While the other side has to accomodate and prepare for WHATEVER CHOICE the cloaker makes. In space the cloaker FORCES everyone to be in high alert while no one can force the cloaker to be in high alert. The cloaker CHOOSES who, when, where, how he attacks. And the attack is only made when the cloaker ticks his PVP flag on, not any second before. If the miner isn't ready tough luck. If the cloaker isn't ready... well then, hang on a minute or two, or three, or a day or two . That's not balance. That's a PVP flag. How is the attacker the one with all the options if the targets are too heavily defended? Im not going to attack anything if a drake is there, which means the drake controles the field, even if he doesnt know it. I can sit there AFK for as long as I like and not get a thing done while the targets get along with their lives and rake in the isk. The only time sitting AFK in system works is when people like you panic, and thats all your own falt.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.10.01 17:33:00 - [263] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Liang Nuren Please note that people being AFK in station and AFK at POSes are exactly equal to AFK cloakers. All I can say to this is.... Wow . Consider it from the attacker's perspective for a moment: - I'm in your system, trying to attack your players - I am actively playing the game - I am being griefed by people who are not playing the game - I cannot accurately determine what they are flying - because they can switch ships at the drop of a hat (something I cannot do) Frankly, if you want to nerf AFK cloakers, please also nerf AFK station spinners and AFK POSers. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Ay Liz Sacred Templars Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.01 18:11:00 - [264] Edited by: Ay Liz on 01/10/2010 18:14:28 Here.. Just remoe someone afk cloaking from local after 5 minutes when he does nothing. Then let him reappear in local when he starts moving after some delay. Paranoia solved, cloak isn't nerfed. Cloakers can actually watch a place like a JB for traffic without being seen in local. Therefore a buff for stealthy operations. So now, i didn't want to interrupt the trolling. Proceed.
Creepy CousinRoger	Posted - 2010.10.01 18:12:00 - [265] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Liang Nuren Please note that people being AFK in station and AFK at POSes are exactly equal to AFK cloakers. All I can say to this is.... Wow . I was actually going to post the same as Liang Nuren. If the 'defenders' are smart about it 'AFK' people in stations on POS can be used to effectively bait/trap the cloaker. I guees Matrix is too busy playing with his flags to think about other options.
Flossing Flush Gordon and The Toilet Ducks of Death	Posted - 2010.10.01 18:13:00 - [266] Edited by: Flossing on 01/10/2010 18:14:43 Yay yet another tired thread about another topic that has been posted dozens of times before and about something that ccp is not going to change , Yay. YOU HEARD IT HEAR FIRST!!!!!!
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.01 18:22:00 - [267] For those who really dont get it: If someone is in a station you can check the undock and have ample of warning to know if he is becoming potentially dangerous. If someone is in a POS exactly the same is true. If someone is cloaked he is completely risk free while you have no idea if he is afk or not, and he does not have to do anything to stay safe. In the end it is just that those who think they are so much better than carebears are too risk averse and want to be completely risk free in 0.0 in space without paying attention.
JJ Starr Minmatar Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2010.10.01 19:25:00 - [268] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 cheese plus massive amounts of whine Dude...you are...without a doubt...the biggest gaping whining little germ to crawl from these forums and that says loads. How can I best put this? Oh yeah...STFU and HTFU noob. Also I lost a bomber setting my peeveepee flag http://omg.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7680239 Nerf Cynabal's tbh
Jodi Goulsti No Salvation	Posted - 2010.10.01 21:38:00 - [269] Originally by: Furb Killer For those who really dont get it: If someone is in a station you can check the undock and have ample of warning to know if he is becoming potentially dangerous. If someone is in a POS exactly the same is true. If someone is cloaked he is completely risk free while you have no idea if he is afk or not, and he does not have to do anything to stay safe. In the end it is just that those who think they are so much better than carebears are too risk averse and want to be completely risk free in 0.0 in space without paying attention. To borrow your words: If someone is in a station or a POS he is completely risk free while you have no idea if he is afk or not, and he does not have to do anything to stay safe.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.01 22:04:00 - [270] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 01/10/2010 22:05:58 I don't worry about cloaked ships until they uncloak next to me. When that happens, I find this fit works well (don't forget the drones, or to overheat the hardeners): [Hulk, GTFO] Damage Control II 'Halcyon' Core Equalizer I Invulnerability Field II Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I Additional Thermal Barrier Emitter I Invulnerability Field II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Vespa EC-600 x5
Octarius Eskravu	Posted - 2010.10.01 22:20:00 - [271] Originally by: Barakkus Make cloaks take cap to run, make it so that to keep up with the cloak for more than 10 minutes of cloaking requires a really stupid fit. This, i have thought of this idea before, and it make ALL sense, a cloak should need cap to function...it will be the end of afk cloakers!
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.10.01 22:32:00 - [272] Stations and POS's should boot people out 300k if they are not active for 10 minutes.
Mal Lokrano Gallente The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.01 23:55:00 - [273] The more I read these "nerf afk cloaking" threads, the more I envision if there had been forums (and of course the internet) in WW2 the British would have spammed: nerf uboats all over them. I mean afterall Stealth Bombers are the U-boats of Eve. _____ When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two. Your friendly neighborhood pod liberator.
Octarius Eskravu	Posted - 2010.10.02 00:52:00 - [274] i love how u guys keep comparing stuff in eve with real life...er...well i can asure you if i were piloting a u-boat i wouldn't be afk lol, and even back there they had a way of detecting subs, but thats in real life...eve its a all diferent story, u cant even evemail a coordinate of a safe spot to someone, he has to go pick it up in person that little whatever that is called a bookmark haha but back to the OP, like someone here said, hire or get one of your dozens of alts to sit there in a sniper ship...end of story...i know it doesnt work if you like the afk bomber, also mine afk, haha...
Ehgrimm	Posted - 2010.10.02 01:19:00 - [275] AFK cloakers can be found and summarily popped, slim chance (accidental bump is more likely) but still a chance. AFK cloakers cannot shoot anyone, because there is no on at the computer, therefore they pose no threat. What is this thread really about?
Lost Greybeard	Posted - 2010.10.02 01:20:00 - [276] Originally by: Octarius Eskravu i love how u guys keep comparing stuff in eve with real life...er...well i can asure you if i were piloting a u-boat i wouldn't be afk lol, and even back there they had a way of detecting subs, but thats in real life...eve its a all diferent story, u cant even evemail a coordinate of a safe spot to someone, he has to go pick it up in person that little whatever that is called a bookmark haha but back to the OP, like someone here said, hire or get one of your dozens of alts to sit there in a sniper ship...end of story...i know it doesnt work if you like the afk bomber, also mine afk, haha... The original way to detect subs was to see them surfacing, i.e. "Uncloaking". After subs had been used militarily for about 50 years, they came up with the ingenious "guess where it is and drop a depth charge close enough that it's forced to surface." Subs were designed to get around SONAR and RADAR within about 5 minutes of SONAR and RADAR being invented. Those technologies give you a minute or two of warning at best, and you still have to know where to look first. The Submarine's greatest weapon is to shut off all of its systems and have everyone go to sleep or sit still to minimize noise emission, at a great enough depth that RADAR does nothing, with passive sensors active, for long periods of time. EVE is designed around the ideas of early naval warfare more than anything else, and the SB is very carefully designed to have similar behavior to a light sub (a u-boat, etc). If it was designed to act like an airborne Stealth Bomber from the modern era it would rely primarily on a speed greater than that achievable by any fighter above all else, and you'd die before your means of detection told you it was there... wouldn't be that fun a game. --- If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous
Dietrich III Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.10.02 02:19:00 - [277] Edited by: Dietrich III on 02/10/2010 02:22:46 Well the B-2 is a subsonic aircraft. It's not particularly fast. It does fly at very high altitudes and is extremely difficult to detect with Radar systems. I still see your point. Just wanted to say that a "stealth" bomber does not necessarily need to be fast. It does need to be difficult to find. And to the OP: Deal with the risks of being spied on and get protection for your mining force. Man I hope that SB has a covert cyno and some black ops teams jump portal right to your Rorqual and blow it all up because you're not being escorted. THAT would be awesome.
Jodi Goulsti No Salvation	Posted - 2010.10.02 03:03:00 - [278] Originally by: Tau Cabalander Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 01/10/2010 22:05:58 I don't worry about cloaked ships until they uncloak next to me. When that happens, I find this fit works well (don't forget the drones, or to overheat the hardeners): [Hulk, GTFO] Damage Control II 'Halcyon' Core Equalizer I Invulnerability Field II Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I Additional Thermal Barrier Emitter I Invulnerability Field II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Vespa EC-600 x5 bump
Comstr Bat Country Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.10.02 04:52:00 - [279] Edited by: Comstr on 02/10/2010 04:53:58 Edited by: Comstr on 02/10/2010 04:53:50 All of you idiots saying "cloaked stealth bombers are just uboats" are ****ed. Until you get nuc boats, submarines were more "submersible" not true submarines- they spent more time ON THE SURFACE and being forced to dive every time someone showed up in a light aircraft overhead. If they spent more than a few hours under surface their batteries would start running low. Forcing cloaked ships to burn capacitor would be EXACTLY like a uboat or other pre-nuclear submarine. Sure there's nothing stopping the cloaked recon or bomber from going to a safe spot between planets every 20-30 minutes to gain the cap again, and if it cap recharges or boosters fitted it wouldn't need to do it for long, or even batteries to extend the time. It's a **ed game mechanic and the fix is unbelievable easy to make it both adding to gameplay for BOTH sides, only CCP would be ****ed enough not to do it. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go AFK in a Cloud Ring system that dotlan tells me has 1000 Rat kills a day. At no risk and no effort on my part.
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui	Posted - 2010.10.02 04:55:00 - [280] HTFU or GTFO. If you can't deal with a couple of lone stealth bombers, you don't deserve to hold that space anyway. - - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Joe Bonanno	Posted - 2010.10.02 05:14:00 - [281] The solution is simple. Mine with a few PvP ships and ignore local and treat your system like we WH-dwellers treat ours.
ShahFluffers Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.10.02 05:22:00 - [282] Edited by: ShahFluffers on 02/10/2010 05:25:42 You know... this debate rages and rages and rages... all arguments have been made and everything that can be said has been said... what'd be REALLY nice right about now is for someone at CCP to actually SAY SOMETHING to end this asinine debate once and for all. Is AFK cloaking an intended mechanic or not? Do the DEVs see it as overpowered or not? Are there thoughts about tinkering with cloaking devices or not? Honestly, I understand that the DEVs prefer to hold back and listen to the community slug it out... coming out with ideas, counter-ideas, merits and de-merits, etc, etc, etc. But there comes a time when an issue has simply has raged for too long and requires a solid answer (as is the case with "ninja salvaging"). Someone say something... for the good of the forums, everyone's sanity, and in the name of turning our minds to more important issues. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Daool	Posted - 2010.10.02 05:44:00 - [283] To my mind afk cloaking is an integral part of a SB's role - area denial. I'd hate to see an ability to scan down a cloaked ship, but perhaps some ability to generally localise it within an area? Perhaps with VERY high skills and a VERY expensive module on a VERY expensive ship you could determine the cloaked enemy ship is within say 20km radius of point X. You then have to trawl within that area to try and bump? You could justify this by saying the module is detecting the faint electronic emmisions that even a shut down system will still produce. Hell, this in itself opens up the posibility of saying that to use the module no other ship can be within say 200km as this interferes with getting a location(?) This opens up the choice of do you go searching ALONE for a SB in a very expensive ship who may (or not) be afk?
Sandy Tavon	Posted - 2010.10.02 08:55:00 - [284] Edited by: Sandy Tavon on 02/10/2010 08:57:25 Ok 10 pages of stupid **. Now the OP has mad alts mining. Now who would be mining in NPC sov space like that? - Ok so that means more than likely they have the system upgraded with the mining stuff. Here is a fun fact, combat probes show on the directional scanner! - AND expanded launchers use 220 CPU! now what does this mean. If you see combat probes out GTFO. But wait, if it uses 220 CPU then the fit is seriously gimped. Use that to your advantage (instapop cane ***es). If a lone bomber is a threat to a nullsec ratter then something is seriously wrong. I just don't see what the whining is about.
kasiloth	Posted - 2010.10.02 09:05:00 - [285] Originally by: Dietrich III Edited by: Dietrich III on 02/10/2010 02:22:46 Man I hope that SB has a covert cyno and some black ops teams jump portal right to your Rorqual and blow it all up because you're not being escorted. THAT would be awesome. That is for all of them who say " go mine there is no problem the sb is afk ". or for those who say " fit ur hulk with this or that to sustain the damage" Nobody can be safe with any kind of ship, any kind of fit, either in solo mining or with support. A cloaked red in a system, staying there for hrs every day undetectable, is an unbitable war tactic -so far- and there must be a solution for that asap. This is the main point of this thread.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2010.10.02 09:31:00 - [286] Originally by: kasiloth Nice try man but im not a carebear. I got a ten accounts mining fleet This has GOT to be a troll .....
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.10.02 09:33:00 - [287] Originally by: Dred Control If SB are now submarines, then give us the equivalent of sonar and depth charges to seek and destroy them, please. And remove local so that stealth bombers can actually be stealthy.
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.10.02 09:40:00 - [288] Originally by: Liang Nuren Now liang , answer me , how many people will bother PvE`ing 0.0 with no local assuming rewards remain the same? -Liang Perhaps people would work in teams with more appropriately fit ships then. Or they could use their d-scan to check if it's safe.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.02 09:49:00 - [289] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 02/10/2010 09:49:56 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: flummox and the rest of you guys need to stop the Remove Local debate. it's been going on for years. and it's not even a solution for anything but your paranoia. the local channel is generated by the stargate that you use to jump in (kinda assuming this, but). if you want no local channel, then go to W-Space. as long as you are in a system that can have sovereignty, you'll have local. DEAL ! But only if coming into any system without using a stargate makes me NOT show up in local. Sure, but then you aren't linked to the in system traffic network communication system. So you aren't seen in local but you can't see who is in local too. Add a "switch" that allow you to be in local and at the same time see local if you have entered through unconventional means or keep you out of local (both ways) and I agree with you.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.02 12:29:00 - [290] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 02/10/2010 12:32:21 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 The attacker, in this case, has ALL THE CHOICES AND NONE OF THE RISKS. While the other side has to accomodate and prepare for WHATEVER CHOICE the cloaker makes. In space the cloaker FORCES everyone to be in high alert while no one can force the cloaker to be in high alert. The cloaker CHOOSES who, when, where, how he attacks. And the attack is only made when the cloaker ticks his PVP flag on, not any second before. If the miner isn't ready tough luck. If the cloaker isn't ready... well then, hang on a minute or two, or three, or a day or two . That's not balance. That's a PVP flag. How is the attacker the one with all the options if the targets are too heavily defended? The choice still lies with the attacker. Think about it. Who decides whether there will be PVP or not? Who consents to there being PVP? The defenders, even if they want PVP, have to wait for the attacker to uncloak and agree to PVP. The attacker, on the other hand, even if it's against his odds, can STILL choose to PVP. Quote: Im not going to attack anything if a drake is there, which means the drake controles the field, even if he doesnt know it. I can sit there AFK for as long as I like and not get a thing done while the targets get along with their lives and rake in the isk. If you're both in space you still have the choice to attack the Drake if you wish and even if it's to your disadvantage, a choice that the Drake pilot doesn't have. And you point out the risk to both rather nicely. If a non-cloaking party gets distracted or doesn't pay attention they end up losing their ship and possibly their pod. If a cloakie gets distracted or doesn't pay attention, well, he loses on a kill. He loses an opportunity to kill ! Not exactly balance, is it. What I'm saying is that cloakies should have to WORK to stay alive in 0.0 as well. I don't care if it's jumping from safe to safe once in a while. That's better than how they have it now. How they have it now is akin to macro-play. They force players to stay alert and looking for them while they don't have to do ** at all. One side stays alert because their assets and pods are in the line if they don't. The other side, well, the worst that can happen besides them choosing (notice the word choose here again) the wrong target to mess with, is they lose on the opportunity of a kill. Quote:** The only time sitting AFK in system works is when people like you panic, and thats all your own falt. It's not panic and you know this. It's staying alert and paying attention to your surroundings, something that the cloakers don't have to do. I love it how you go from "risk, stay alert, 0.0, you HAVE to in order to stay alive in 00!1!" to "you're just panicking". Note how cloakers dont have to be paying attention to the game to survive 0.0. Nullsec should be dangerous to EVERYONE there. Cloakers should be able to be hunted. EVERYONE should be able to be hunted reasonably. There should be a module, with a crapload of disadvantages to the users including a system-wide broadcast like the cyno does, that is being used. That way, the cloakers that are in the ice cream shop AFK get killed while those that are hopping around get to stay alive. Make the module so that it is expensive to run, I don't care. At least it forces cloakers to stop going AFK or face some consequences. It's about time. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Scott Ryder Amarr art of eve Gunmen of the Apocalypse	Posted - 2010.10.02 12:34:00 - [291] Edited by: Scott Ryder on 02/10/2010 12:34:25 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Wah wah wah :'( Im not completely safe in my nulsec! Fixed it for you m8 =)
Mr LaForge	Posted - 2010.10.02 12:39:00 - [292] This makes me want to stop station trading and actually train for pvp. Just to shut a system down.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.02 12:47:00 - [293] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 02/10/2010 12:48:37 Originally by: Scott Ryder Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Wah wah wah :'( Im not completely safe in my nulsec! Fixed it for you m8 =) If you had read my post you'd have noticed it's about bringing risk, not taking it away. But as always, people like you try to distort the situation to distract CCP from bringing any kind of consequences to those that aren't paying attention. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Dr Ngo Amarr JESUS CHRIST IT'S A LION GET IN THE CAR	Posted - 2010.10.02 13:20:00 - [294] Lots of tl;dr in this stupid thread. If you want to afk mine go to empire. If you're a macro go diaf. If you somehow think that rallying enough protection to keep a paper thin bomber from killing you is 'too much work' to stay safe in 0.0 go back to wherever you came from. I'd really like to see local in 0.0 (even lowsec) moved to a delayed system at the very least and removed in best case scenerio. Hell as many windows as I have open I'd still consider it an acceptable compromise if a delayed constellation chat was used as the 'new' local and in system chat was moved to the wormhole system. Of course the long range scanner should be fixed as well. And while I'm dreaming I'd like a working sov system and destructible stations please. - M.D.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.02 13:49:00 - [295] Edited by: baltec1 on 02/10/2010 13:50:54 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 The choice still lies with the attacker. Think about it. Who decides whether there will be PVP or not? Who consents to there being PVP? The defenders, even if they want PVP, have to wait for the attacker to uncloak and agree to PVP. The attacker, on the other hand, even if it's against his odds, can STILL choose to PVP. A garenteed suicide attack is not an option. Quote: If you're both in space you still have the choice to attack the Drake if you wish and even if it's to your disadvantage, a choice that the Drake pilot doesn't have. And you point out the risk to both rather nicely. If a non-cloaking party gets distracted or doesn't pay attention they end up losing their ship and possibly their pod. If a cloakie gets distracted or doesn't pay attention, well, he loses on a kill. He loses an opportunity to kill ! Not exactly balance, is it. A suicide attack is still not an option. They hold all the cards, I dont know if they are AFK or not (dear god, the afk argument works both ways! ) Quote: What I'm saying is that cloakies should have to WORK to stay alive in 0.0 as well. Try going solo in a bomber for a few months. You will find it is not as easy as you think. The only thing I have to defend me is the cloak, remove that and you reduce the bomber to once again being a useless ship. Quote: It's not panic and you know this. It's staying alert and paying attention to your surroundings, something that the cloakers don't have to do. I love it how you go from "risk, stay alert, 0.0, you HAVE to in order to stay alive in 00!1!" to "you're just panicking". Note how cloakers dont have to be paying attention to the game to survive 0.0. Yea because when attacking a target I dont bother to scan out the system to see what is there to come help you nore do I need to keep an eye on local spikes or have to manage collisions with asteroids/ships ect when warping into a belt or bubbles with cans on them and a cepter on standby at gates/stations. I also dont need to align myself to gtfo spots when things go wrong. And lets not get into that cloaked up pilgrim that was guarding the mining op or the raven that has a cloak fitted so it can warp off and hide in "perfect safety". The irony of all this is you are wanting to rat/mine in perfect safety.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.02 14:35:00 - [296] Originally by: baltec1 A garenteed suicide attack is not an option. First, it is still an option, and one that the other pilot can't make. Second, if it's a smaller target or if it's more than one cloaker (which usually is) it isn't a "suicide". It's a guaranteed kill, and one PVP fight that only the cloaker dictates when it happens. You keep referring to "one lone cloaker" as if that was the only way to fly a cloaker. Quote: The irony of all this is you are wanting to rat/mine in perfect safety. And you also keep saying this. And again: I'M NOT ASKING TO MAKE MINERS/RATTERS SAFER. I'm asking that if you are in space and AFK that you face some consequences just as a ratter/miner would if he went AFK in space. It's supposed to be dangerous, remember? You keep dodging this with crap I haven't said at all. Why? Do you not agree that EVERYONE in 0.0 should face risk if not paying attention? I repeat, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST A CLOAKER STALKING PREY AS LONG AS HE'S PAYING ATTENTION AND ON THE PC. I only have a problem when he goes AFK while everyone else in space has to remain vigilant and the cloaker himself doesn't. We need a module, perhaps a new ship, that once activated, is able to be seen by everyone in the system, it freezes the user so he's extremely vulnerable (just as a cynoer), it's expensive to run (maybe come up with another type of fuel), etc, and that is able to track down AFK cloakers. And that makes it hard to track non-AFK cloakers (the ones moving from safe to safe for example) but is able to catch those that are at school or in the mall. I'm not asking for too much and you know it. I'm asking that CCP stop making it easy for those that are AFK playing with the added advantage of keeping everyone else on their toes. Why are you against this idea? Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.02 14:55:00 - [297] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Why are you against this idea? Because I implant myself in target systems hours before an op so I do not run into bubbles. Because ratters used cloaks in systems with no pos or station to dock at. Because I am used to keep an eye on the enemy fleet for hours at a time. Because I need time to get into bombing position. I can go on but as you can see nerfing the cloak will reduce one of my favorate ships to near uselessness for no reason at all other than to satify the lazy. There are countermeasures already, its just people like yourself refuse to use them and instead insist it is not fair.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.02 15:20:00 - [298] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Why are you against this idea? Because I implant myself in target systems hours before an op so I do not run into bubbles. That's fine. Implant yourself in the system. If you're planning to go AFK you can always log out, nothing impedes you from doing that. If you're going to be at the keyboard then you won't get caught. It's that simple. Quote: Because ratters used cloaks in systems with no pos or station to dock at. My idea would affect ANY type of AFK cloaker only, whether it be a PVPer, missioner, ratter. If you're AFK and in space you CAN be caught. However, if you are at the keyboard you'll still have nothing to fear while you're cloaked. You can stalk, you can do your recon, you can do whatever, as long as you are at the keyboard. For example, as long as you change safes once in a while you'll still be OK. If you're not paying attention, then you die a horrible death as you should anyway in 00. Quote: Because I am used to keep an eye on the enemy fleet for hours at a time. Because I need time to get into bombing position. Again, if you're at the keyboard you can continue doing these things. My idea would only affect those that are AFK. Getting into position shouldn't take you 2 days of AFK play . Quote: I can go on but as you can see nerfing the cloak will reduce one of my favorate ships to near uselessness for no reason at all other than to satify the lazy. There are countermeasures already, its just people like yourself refuse to use them and instead insist it is not fair. You haven't said ANYTHING that would affect a player that is at the keyboard other than having to change spots once in a while. And that is a very small price to pay for being invulnerable. In fact, if such a module was introduced you'd even know that you're about to be probed, since my idea includes the module being broadcast system-wide, just like when a cyno goes off. Everybody in system knows. If you're at the mall when the module is deployed, then don't you think you deserve to get popped? I think it's more than fair. The only people that would be against this are the ones wanting to be able to stay in complete safety, go AFK while forcing everyone else to stay vigilant and on their toes. My idea changes that in that EVERYONE stays vigilant. You can still do pscyhological warfare, you'll just need to pay attention while you do it . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.10.02 15:32:00 - [299] 0.0 is not about Danger. it is about Risk vs. Reward. just like the other areas of the map (and real life). and i am starting to feel that some people just aren't getting it. let us go over some finer points... together! Point #1: There is no Game Mechanic that prevents anyone from doing anything in 0.0, such as mining, ratting, station spinning, hunting, gate-camping, PoS-ing, exploring, PleXing, griefing, touch-yourselfing, etc. Point #2: Risk vs. Reward is a term that applies to Game Mechanics. It does not include non-Game Mechanic Risk and/or Rewards; for instance: Tears. You may think that it does, but it does not. Point #3: In certain peoples' haste to call foul on cloaks and AFK Cloakers, they are trying to put non-Game Mechanics into the equation and have failed to include their own RKvsRW variables they hold so dear. In order to maintain a "lock-down" on your system (non-Game Mechanic), they must activate an account, pay for it, use RealWorld resources to do this (computer, 2nd client running, electricity, etc.,) train up the skills, truck out to your system (which has a whole new set of crap to do), and then spend the time "shutting you down". You cannot just ignore these things. And if you try and pass them off and remove them from the equation, then you must also remove your own made-up variables, such as "locking down a system"; a completely false presumption controlled by your own psychology, not a Game Mechanic. Summarization: Cloaking and using a cloak for game mechanics is balanced. It is NOT balanced for non-Game Mechanics. Which I believe to be of no concern to me, you, or CCP on any level what-so-ever. i am certain that CCP is looking at this complaining and will probably do something about it (eventually). as long as they take into account ALL the topics presented here, there should be no issues. let's take a quick pass over some of the heavier variables in the equation: Cloaking AFK Cloaking Local Channel 0.0 Mining 0.0 AFK Mining 0.0 Ratting [0.0 AFK Ratting??] Cyno Fields, Covert Cyno Fields, and Hot Dropping Safe Spots as long as CCP takes into account ALL these items when balancing, there shouldn't be an issue. i would hate to see a cycle time or power consumption added into the game for cloaks but not see any *equal* changes done to the other items on the list. currently, there is nothing wrong with cloaking as it is balanced with Game Mechanics and Risk vs Reward. it is not, and nor should it be, changed (a.k.a. "nerfed") for psychological aspects of a players' style of gaming, or falsely percieved effects such as "system lockdown". it is just a little funny if you ask me. that the same Tool you use to keep an eye out for enemies (Local), is the exact same Tool they are using against you. it's almost perfect, isn't it? i would suggest that it is Balanced. also, do you have any actual proof that the person is using a cloaking device? and not just safespotted up the wazoo? i'll take this one, chuck. the answer is: no! you have no proof, even if your alt posts and confirms a cloak is used, that this is going on. none. no proof. wrong, sit down... aroo
Theo Paphitis	Posted - 2010.10.02 15:36:00 - [300] Dominion brought with it less risk for more reward as far as carebears are concerned. Prior to this you could catch stuff with 10 seconds of d-scanning belts after jumping into a system. Now with the new anomolies you need 30 secs for ship scanner and even probes aren't really much faster than that. Its a massive difference. CCP needs to rebalance this and remove/delay local in 0.0 It works, WH corps do fine, if anything it forces better co-operation :MMO: and subsequently these changes will provide a small boost to solo/small gang pvp. Rebalance the risk:reward, make 0.0 the dangerous and harsh place its supposed to be and encourage smaller scale pvp. The only reason this hasn't already been done I bet is because CCP is scared of the 'bear backlash.
AFK Griefer AFK Chartered System Management	Posted - 2010.10.02 15:36:00 - [301] Nothing to snipe here, move along.
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.10.02 15:38:00 - [302] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 I'M NOT ASKING TO MAKE MINERS/RATTERS SAFER. yes. yes you are. aroo
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.02 15:45:00 - [303] Edited by: baltec1 on 02/10/2010 15:46:14 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 You haven't said ANYTHING that would affect a player that is at the keyboard other than having to change spots once in a while. I am fairly clear that I said that implant myself into a system hourd before a fight to observe and get into a bombing position. What you want would make this impossible. Quote: And that is a very small price to pay for being invulnerable. It would destroy my ships usefullness. I would be of more use to a fleet in yet abother fleet battleship. Quote: In fact, if such a module was introduced you'd even know that you're about to be probed, since my idea includes the module being broadcast system-wide, just like when a cyno goes off. Everybody in system knows. If you're at the mall when the module is deployed, then don't you think you deserve to get popped? I think it's more than fair. If I am at the mall them my ship poses zero threat anyway. Rat in a fleet and you are safe from a bomber. Quote: The only people that would be against this are the ones wanting to be able to stay in complete safety, go AFK while forcing everyone else to stay vigilant and on their toes. as opposed to the people who want this so they can rat and mine in perfect saftey? Because that is what you are asking for. Quote: My idea changes that in that EVERYONE stays vigilant. You can still do pscyhological warfare, you'll just need to pay attention while you do it . So nerf me into uselessness yet still suffer the same problem you are trying to "fix" from people who go afk in a station/pos or fly around in an umprobable ship?
Napro Caldari Simplistic Syndicate Cha0s Theory	Posted - 2010.10.02 15:55:00 - [304] People saying to mine with an escort are down right retaarded! Mining profits are slim as it is... splitting them with an escort results in a loss since that escort could make more money ratting. Who in their right mind would take the option? Especially considering that the Cloaking griefer would never engage with you around so any chance of PvP is out the window? End this broken game mechanic that lets people play only when they'll win and is in effect, an "I Win" Button with a time delay
AFK Griefer AFK Chartered System Management	Posted - 2010.10.02 15:57:00 - [305] Originally by: Napro People saying to mine with an escort are down right retaarded! Mining profits are slim as it is... splitting them with an escort results in a loss since that escort could make more money ratting. Who in their right mind would take the option? Especially considering that the Cloaking griefer would never engage with you around so any chance of PvP is out the window? End this broken game mechanic that lets people play only when they'll win and is in effect, an "I Win" Button with a time delay Mining in gangs with escorts was the norm, your greed is your undoing.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.02 16:00:00 - [306] Originally by: Napro People saying to mine with an escort are down right retaarded! Mining profits are slim as it is... splitting them with an escort results in a loss since that escort could make more money ratting. Who in their right mind would take the option? Especially considering that the Cloaking griefer would never engage with you around so any chance of PvP is out the window? End this broken game mechanic that lets people play only when they'll win and is in effect, an "I Win" Button with a time delay The escort goes ratting in the same system and warps to the miners when they are in trouble? Or you use an alt in a cloaked up pilgrim that would otherwise be doing nothing?
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.02 16:02:00 - [307] Originally by: flummox 0.0 is not about Danger. it is about Risk vs. Reward. just like the other areas of the map (and real life). Hmmm. I wonder if I could tell the gatecampers that. "Hey, I'm strolling around, not really looking for a reward, so plz no risk either." Quote: There is no Game Mechanic that prevents anyone from doing anything in 0.0, such as mining, ratting, station spinning, hunting, gate-camping, PoS-ing, exploring, PleXing, griefing, touch-yourselfing, etc. Besides being docked, the only other "profession" that allows you to meta-game (ie, keep players looking for you and being on the defensive because of you while you drink at the local bar) is AFK cloaking in nullsec. Nice. Actually, I can see why you so vehemently defend this :). Quote: Risk vs. Reward is a term that applies to Game Mechanics. It does not include non-Game Mechanic Risk and/or Rewards; for instance: Tears. You may think that it does, but it does not. Cloaking and heading to your local bar for hours while everyone else is forced to play defensively while you get drunk (not paying attention) is a game mechanic and needs changing so you finally face some risk. You won't like it, I know. You really don't like the idea of CCP bringing some risk to you. But it is needed. If you want to AFK cloak then do it in hi sec with the rest of us carebears, with minimal risk :) Quote: In certain peoples' haste to call foul on cloaks and AFK Cloakers, they are trying to put non-Game Mechanics into the equation and have failed to include their own RKvsRW variables they hold so dear. I haven't once asked to minimize risk to anyone. I'm asking that players that get careless and stop paying attention can potentially suffer the consequences, especially those that force others to pay attention while themselseves don't have to. That's just lazy unacceptable game mechanics. I can see why a carebearing AFK cloaker like yourself would want to hold on this ability. But it still needs to go. Quote: i am certain that CCP is looking at this complaining and will probably do something about it (eventually). as long as they take into account ALL the topics presented here, there should be no issues. I sure hope they do. There will be tears from you and other AFK cloakers no doubt. But it is a change for the better, bringing risk to everyone in nullsec. The rest of your post is not even worth going over. "Do you have proof they're cloaked? NO U DONT!!!1HAHA" I mean c'mon, seriously. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.02 16:21:00 - [308] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 I am fairly clear that I said that implant myself into a system hourd before a fight to observe and get into a bombing position. What you want would make this impossible. C'mon man. Stop it with these ridiculous excuses. How would that make that impossible? If you're at the keyboard observing and getting into position you're at NO RISK of being caught. Unless by "getting into position" you mean going AFK for 6 hours :P. But at least be man enough to admit it and stop evading my responses. I've told you that the only inconvenience to you would be to change safes while they search for cloakers. If it's made expensive and troublesome enough to deploy this module it would only be worth to running it a couple of hours at a time, catching only AFK cloakers, not you. Quote: It would destroy my ships usefullness. I would be of more use to a fleet in yet abother fleet battleship. How? If you're at the keyboard, this wouldn't change anything? You're still safe and still able to collect your recon data. Dude, the only people affected would be AFK cloakers. Quote: If I am at the mall them my ship poses zero threat anyway. Rat in a fleet and you are safe from a bomber. We've gone over this already. If you're at the mall, then log out. No reason to stay logged in if you're shopping at the mall. Or CCP could do it for ya. Or they can implement my idea and blow you out of the sky . But that would be too cruel and too hardcore for you, right :)? Quote: as opposed to the people who want this so they can rat and mine in perfect saftey? Because that is what you are asking for. It doesn't change the risk that miners and ratters face as long as you yourself are at the keyboard. If you're not at the keyboard why should you be forcing them to be on the lookout for you and they not be able to make you be on the lookout for them? Why do you want to remain safe while making others stay on the lookout? You see how you're acting like a carebear? Quote: So nerf me into uselessness yet still suffer the same problem you are trying to "fix" from people who go afk in a station/pos or fly around in an umprobable ship? You're not being nerfed unless you are an AFK cloaker. If you're an AFK cloaker then you deserve to get popped. And like I said, you're out in space making others be on the lookout for you while you yourself are at the bar, c'mon now, you deserve to get popped. You know it. I'm not asking to have cloakers, recon activities, or anything of the like nerfed. I'm asking that if you're AFK cloaked you face some potential of losing your ship. After all, a whole system is up in guard because of the potential threat that you pose. Why shouldn't you face some potential threat yourself? Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Jodi Goulsti No Salvation	Posted - 2010.10.02 16:26:00 - [309] Originally by: Napro People saying to mine with an escort are down right retaarded! Mining profits are slim as it is... splitting them with an escort results in a loss since that escort could make more money ratting. Who in their right mind would take the option? Especially considering that the Cloaking griefer would never engage with you around so any chance of PvP is out the window? End this broken game mechanic that lets people play only when they'll win and is in effect, an "I Win" Button with a time delay Originally by: Tau Cabalander I don't worry about cloaked ships until they uncloak next to me. When that happens, I find this fit works well (don't forget the drones, or to overheat the hardeners): [Hulk, GTFO] Damage Control II 'Halcyon' Core Equalizer I Invulnerability Field II Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I Additional Thermal Barrier Emitter I Invulnerability Field II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Vespa EC-600 x5
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.02 16:29:00 - [310] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 I am fairly clear that I said that implant myself into a system hourd before a fight to observe and get into a bombing position. What you want would make this impossible. C'mon man. Stop it with these ridiculous excuses. How would that make that impossible? If you're at the keyboard observing and getting into position you're at NO RISK of being caught. Unless by "getting into position" you mean going AFK for 6 hours :P. But at least be man enough to admit it and stop evading my responses. I've told you that the only inconvenience to you would be to change safes while they search for cloakers. If it's made expensive and troublesome enough to deploy this module it would only be worth to running it a couple of hours at a time, catching only AFK cloakers, not you. I am there 2 hours before we attack. I am on grid and in a bombing posistion at least an hour before. The way you want this to go would mean I cannot stay on grid, in my bombing position, ready to attack at the drop of a hat and relaying exact positions of the enemy fleet reletive to my own. We have ways of dealing with AFK cloakers, use them.
AFK Griefer AFK Chartered System Management	Posted - 2010.10.02 16:34:00 - [311] Originally by: baltec1 We have ways of dealing with AFK cloakers, use them. I'm fine with his ignorance.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.02 16:39:00 - [312] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 I am fairly clear that I said that implant myself into a system hourd before a fight to observe and get into a bombing position. What you want would make this impossible. C'mon man. Stop it with these ridiculous excuses. How would that make that impossible? If you're at the keyboard observing and getting into position you're at NO RISK of being caught. Unless by "getting into position" you mean going AFK for 6 hours :P. But at least be man enough to admit it and stop evading my responses. I've told you that the only inconvenience to you would be to change safes while they search for cloakers. If it's made expensive and troublesome enough to deploy this module it would only be worth to running it a couple of hours at a time, catching only AFK cloakers, not you. I am there 2 hours before we attack. I am on grid and in a bombing posistion at least an hour before. The way you want this to go would mean I cannot stay on grid, in my bombing position, ready to attack at the drop of a hat and relaying exact positions of the enemy fleet reletive to my own. Baltec, how long does it take you to warp into position? I'd gander no more than 2 minutes. In the mean time if you're at the keyboard you don't get caught. Hell, just to keep you tucked in safe and with no worries of risk, make it so the module pins you down withing a sphere with an error of 20-30 km. If you're at the keyboard all you need to do is stay alert and wait for your fleet to give the command. Warp into position and do your thing. Stay alert and you'll be fine :). Quote: We have ways of dealing with AFK cloakers, use them. None of which allows the other side to hunt them down. If they're AFK, they should be able to die. If they're not AFK everything stays the same. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Zendoren Aktaeon Industries	Posted - 2010.10.02 16:45:00 - [313] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Cloaking and heading to your local bar for hours while everyone else is forced to play defensively while you get drunk (not paying attention) is a game mechanic and needs changing so you finally face some risk. You won't like it, I know. You really don't like the idea of CCP bringing some risk to you. But it is needed. If you want to AFK cloak then do it in hi sec with the rest of us carebears, with minimal risk :) Train skillz and get a cloak for yourself. There, your not playing defensively anymore! Just because you don't want to go out and AFK cloak in someone home system does not mean that others should not do it to you. People like you are the reason why America has too many laws! Yea I went there!
Deandra Walran	Posted - 2010.10.02 16:45:00 - [314] I tend to think this "problem" could be solved if there was some sort of inactivity timer that logged people out after say an hour or so of inactivity.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.02 17:07:00 - [315] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Baltec, how long does it take you to warp into position? I'd gander no more than 2 minutes. In the mean time if you're at the keyboard you don't get caught. Hell, just to keep you tucked in safe and with no worries of risk, make it so the module pins you down withing a sphere with an error of 20-30 km. If you're at the keyboard all you need to do is stay alert and wait for your fleet to give the command. Warp into position and do your thing. Stay alert and you'll be fine :). 20-30km = in range of sebo sabers which means I die. You are also missing out the fact that at 300km and under means a good prober will get your exact position with the first scan, and a drag net of cepters with drones will make short work of finding you. If I am forced to hop spots constently I cannt effectivly give the exact positions of the fleet because I am having to dodge probes all the time and any bombing run I might have planned is not going to happen with any kind of pinpoint accuracy. All this because you do not like the fact there is an AFK red in local dooing nothing to anyone. If you want a fix then have CCP deploy WH local system to all of eve. No more afk pilot shutting down a system.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.02 17:17:00 - [316] Originally by: baltec1 20-30km = in range of sebo sabers which means I die. No it doesn't. I never said anything about SeBos being able to pin down cloakers . You don't hesitate in calling others carebears and wanting it safe, but look at you trembling over the fact that some risk may be add to your profession. I've been kind, but I'll let you know that I know you're bull****ting and essentially just want to keep AFK cloaking. I never said you'd have to hop spots consistently. I was thinking once every hour or so while the module runs for a few minutes or even seconds every 1 or 2 hours and tracks down AFK cloakers. You obviously are an AFK cloaker and would fight this idea tooth and nail accusing the other side of not having balls while crying that "such and such would get you killed and wouldn't be fair that you had to risk anything". The hipocrisy is astounding. But, if anything I hope you at least realized this much. You can relax. AFK cloakers can continue to collect kills/tears without any risk to themselves. You're fine for the moment :). Everything that needed saying has been said, and there's nothing more to add. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.10.03 01:06:00 - [317] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: flummox 0.0 is not about Danger. it is about Risk vs. Reward. just like the other areas of the map (and real life). Hmmm. I wonder if I could tell the gatecampers that. "Hey, I'm strolling around, not really looking for a reward, so plz no risk either." Quote: There is no Game Mechanic that prevents anyone from doing anything in 0.0, such as mining, ratting, station spinning, hunting, gate-camping, PoS-ing, exploring, PleXing, griefing, touch-yourselfing, etc. Besides being docked, the only other "profession" that allows you to meta-game (ie, keep players looking for you and being on the defensive because of you while you drink at the local bar) is AFK cloaking in nullsec. Nice. Actually, I can see why you so vehemently defend this :). Quote: Risk vs. Reward is a term that applies to Game Mechanics. It does not include non-Game Mechanic Risk and/or Rewards; for instance: Tears. You may think that it does, but it does not. Cloaking and heading to your local bar for hours while everyone else is forced to play defensively while you get drunk (not paying attention) is a game mechanic and needs changing so you finally face some risk. You won't like it, I know. You really don't like the idea of CCP bringing some risk to you. But it is needed. If you want to AFK cloak then do it in hi sec with the rest of us carebears, with minimal risk :) Quote: In certain peoples' haste to call foul on cloaks and AFK Cloakers, they are trying to put non-Game Mechanics into the equation and have failed to include their own RKvsRW variables they hold so dear. I haven't once asked to minimize risk to anyone. I'm asking that players that get careless and stop paying attention can potentially suffer the consequences, especially those that force others to pay attention while themselseves don't have to. That's just lazy unacceptable game mechanics. I can see why a carebearing AFK cloaker like yourself would want to hold on this ability. But it still needs to go. Quote: i am certain that CCP is looking at this complaining and will probably do something about it (eventually). as long as they take into account ALL the topics presented here, there should be no issues. I sure hope they do. There will be tears from you and other AFK cloakers no doubt. But it is a change for the better, bringing risk to everyone in nullsec. The rest of your post is not even worth going over. "Do you have proof they're cloaked? NO U DONT!!!1HAHA" I mean c'mon, seriously. stop giving your witty one-liner style answers to sections of posts. come up with a concise retort instead picking apart peoples' thoughts. my post was meant to be read as a whole. not to be nitpicked by a whiner like yourself. my original statement still stands: Cloak balances itself. you have failed to add any form of constructive insight to this thread or this debate. 60% for your posting tactics. that's a D- sir... the only thing that will make me cry is your continued account payment(s). just for you, i'm making a program to log myself in my safe spot... UNCLOAKED... periodically througout the day in your system. ** it. i'll be in an egg mother **er! aroo
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.10.03 01:14:00 - [318] Originally by: Deandra Walran I tend to think this "problem" could be solved if there was some sort of inactivity timer that logged people out after say an hour or so of inactivity. nope. mouse moving macros and such. and before anyone gets stupid about a EULA or somesuch, i'll train my frickin' cat to move my mouse once an hour... or build one of those Pee-Wee Herman machines to move my mouse 1/420th of an inch every few minutes... aroo
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2010.10.03 01:30:00 - [319] martixskye got touched in a bad way at Gate Camp and now he wants all the bad players (who try to hurt other players) to go away. It's kind of funny.
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2010.10.03 01:33:00 - [320] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 You don't hesitate in calling others carebears and wanting it safe, but look at you trembling over the fact that some risk may be added to your profession. Dear Matrixskye, There already is plenty of risk operating a lone stealth ship behind enemy lines in nullsec. Signed, Emperor Cheney
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.10.03 01:55:00 - [321] Edited by: flummox on 03/10/2010 01:57:39 Originally by: Emperor Cheney Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 You don't hesitate in calling others carebears and wanting it safe, but look at you trembling over the fact that some risk may be added to your profession. Dear Matrixskye, There already is plenty of risk operating a lone stealth ship behind enemy lines in nullsec. Signed, Emperor Cheney yes. as i jumped into LXQ2-T i was met with a vision of a half dozen or so ships and three varying sized warp blobs. warped to the sun and then off to a "safe spot" and proceded to scan around. i see a guy named Lord Al-something-or-other appear on the grid in an egg. his trek into 0.0, or out of, was unsuccesful. proving that just getting into and out of 0.0 can be a problem. one of the balances to the game. i think you guys never leaving the one system you farm in is just as lame as you think me going to the mall (who goes to the mall anymore) and cloaking. i agree with Emperor Cheney. just don't shoot my face off! aroo
Mikron Alexarr New Age Solutions The Laughing Men	Posted - 2010.10.03 05:10:00 - [322] Ordinarily, I don't respond to posts that complain about game mechanics. This is because of the template response that can be given to anyone complaining ("Yes, it's a game mechanic. In order to play eve, learn said mechanic and GTFO my threads"). This issue is one that has caused quite a bit of trouble over the years and after this latest long list of crap responses, crying, trolling, flaming, etc... I will give my .02 ISK. In the beginning, there was CCP. CCP created a bunch of internet spaceships for us to pew pew in. One day, CCP thought that it would be super cool if a combat ship could cloak. All of Eve flew behind to support the idea and so were born stealth bombers. (please correct/add to any of my history lessons, I've been playing a long time and the years are starting to blend a little.) Null sec was a great and massive space where many systems could be traversed and only a single pilot could be found. Stealth pilots began to see utility in this new technology. Eve's pilots spread more and soon, no system could be travelled without finding someone in your local. Wormhole space then became place to catch the overflow of players wanting more space to themselves. And after the forum wars of the many numerous patches concerning cloaking, CCP deemed it necessary for cloaked pilots to be able to carry on with their business according to the current rules we are all familiar with today. These æAFK cloakersÆ are other pilots doing the EXACT (let me stress the importance of this word: EXACT) same thing you are attempting to do. Playing Eve has never been about relying on developers to make the game easy for you to make money or to kill people. It is, in fact, the job of the developers and game designers to make this particular game as challenging as possible. The intention is that you do not sink many more dollars into the game than some other player just to crown yourself master of eve. It, similarly, is not the intention that the æevilÆ æAFK cloakersÆ get easy kills on your ill-invested real world dollars. The fact that you are in null sec, complaining about interactions with other players is appalling. In no other MMO that I am aware of, can someone interact on the level that EVE allows. Your precious minerals may bring you money through the market, but they can also be used to create the largest ships in the game or feed the ammo for their weapons. Crashing entire markets or starting them are made possible by those minerals you mine. The uses are endless. Your apparently narrow minded approach to carebearing in such an environment makes me want to VOMIT. (itÆs not about how many clients can fit on your quad-core HT/16Gb RAM/SLI system.) Tl;dr Get your **** together, stop crying, do CCP the favor of at least thinking about all of the consequences of your proposed change, OR make it work like every other pilot in eve does today; starting with the NUMEROUS suggestions in this overly long forum thread would be advisable. If you donÆt like the mechanics that the creators of our world that we all know and love have bestowed upon us, I STRONGLY encourage you to find another game, delete your character(s) (kill yourself), and find something that doesnÆt stretch your poor brain to the point that you have to come onto the forums with INCOMPLETE arguments for the changing of a mechanic that has taken years to refine. If IÆm completely off-base here, please tell me. Seeing threads this long on something this simple seems sad to me. Tell me why I should not be sad.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.03 07:51:00 - [323] Christ are people still biting on Matrix's "zero risk" troll? Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
The Snatch	Posted - 2010.10.03 11:50:00 - [324] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Why are you against this idea? Because I implant myself in target systems hours before an op so I do not run into bubbles. That's fine. Implant yourself in the system. If you're planning to go AFK you can always log out, nothing impedes you from doing that. If you're going to be at the keyboard then you won't get caught. It's that simple. Quote: Because ratters used cloaks in systems with no pos or station to dock at. My idea would affect ANY type of AFK cloaker only, whether it be a PVPer, missioner, ratter. If you're AFK and in space you CAN be caught. However, if you are at the keyboard you'll still have nothing to fear while you're cloaked. You can stalk, you can do your recon, you can do whatever, as long as you are at the keyboard. For example, as long as you change safes once in a while you'll still be OK. If you're not paying attention, then you die a horrible death as you should anyway in 00. Quote: Because I am used to keep an eye on the enemy fleet for hours at a time. Because I need time to get into bombing position. Again, if you're at the keyboard you can continue doing these things. My idea would only affect those that are AFK. Getting into position shouldn't take you 2 days of AFK play . Quote: I can go on but as you can see nerfing the cloak will reduce one of my favorate ships to near uselessness for no reason at all other than to satify the lazy. There are countermeasures already, its just people like yourself refuse to use them and instead insist it is not fair. You haven't said ANYTHING that would affect a player that is at the keyboard other than having to change spots once in a while. And that is a very small price to pay for being invulnerable. In fact, if such a module was introduced you'd even know that you're about to be probed, since my idea includes the module being broadcast system-wide, just like when a cyno goes off. Everybody in system knows. If you're at the mall when the module is deployed, then don't you think you deserve to get popped? I think it's more than fair. The only people that would be against this are the ones wanting to be able to stay in complete safety, go AFK while forcing everyone else to stay vigilant and on their toes. My idea changes that in that EVERYONE stays vigilant. You can still do pscyhological warfare, you'll just need to pay attention while you do it . I totaly agree with this.
Vurshachka	Posted - 2010.10.03 12:59:00 - [325] Totally agree, that's why mining chars are becoming cheaper and cheaper @ character bazaar
Acer Lorenz	Posted - 2010.10.03 13:35:00 - [326] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 And you're avoiding the question. The ratters are in a well-protected fleet, the miners are in a well-protected fleet as they should be. What is the cloaker having to sacrifice to stay alive? What predator is hunting him with even a slim chance of catching him? Who is HE worried will hunt him down if he's not paying attention while he watches pron? . The attacker cannot attack you without getting killed or driven off? What exactly are the well protected miners/ratters losing with him in local unable to do anything? The answer we are looking at is nothing at all while the AFK cloaker is not getting anything done. So in the end the one who loses out is the guy who is AFK as they get nothing from being there. I think what he means is that the miner sacrifices earnings and having to beef up security in order to stay alive. The cloaker seems to sacrifice nothing other than a lost opportunity for a kill.
DNSBlacks Arazu	Posted - 2010.10.03 15:27:00 - [327] I say do away with afk defense fleets. How can we tell if we want to attact your system if we don't know if you are afk in station, afk in a pos, or just waiting to touch my monkey. You miss the point, if they are afk then they can't hurt you. They aren't doing anything. Get over it. While you are at it, do away with spam in Jita from afk market runners.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.10.03 15:39:00 - [328] Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 03/10/2010 15:40:31 Now, this is a story all about how My Sov got flipped-turned upside down And I liked to take a minute Just sit right there I'll tell you how I became the Carebear of a system called Dodixie In west Paragon Soul born and raised In the Farm System is where I spent most of my days Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool Mining and Ratting outside of the POS When a couple of Toons Who weren't really AFK Started making trouble in my belt I got in one little fight and my CEO got scared She said 'You're Kicked' with your Alt to carebear in Dodixie' I begged and pleaded with her day after day But she packed my Jump Freighter and send me on my way She gave me a Noobship and then she gave me my Trit. I put my (EVE has no Sound) on and said, 'I might as well kick it'. First class, yo this is bad Drinking Quafe out of a champagne glass. Is this what the people of Dodixie Living like? Hmmmmm this might be alright. I whistled for a Shuttle and when it came near The license plate said Gank and it had dice in the mirror If anything I can say this Shuttle is rare But I thought 'Now forget it' - 'Yo homes to Dodixie' I pulled up to the Station about 7 or 8 And I yelled to the Pilot 'Yo homes smell ya later' I looked at my kingdom I was finally there To sit on my throne as the Carebear of Dodixie Wait till they learn of Suddenly Ninja's -- Fine Mag's no Purple ok! But I am the Snyper Queen!
Dark Star01	Posted - 2010.10.03 16:01:00 - [329] at least some ccp response on this matter lol http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1393688
kasiloth	Posted - 2010.10.03 16:02:00 - [330] Alara u do a lot of noice without saying anything at all. u better be cloaked and afk :P
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.10.03 16:08:00 - [331] Fun Fact: Rigged Stealth Bombers can hit with Javilin Torps out to 114km! That makes them Snipers! -- Fine Mag's no Purple ok! But I am the Snyper Queen!
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.03 16:19:00 - [332] Originally by: Acer Lorenz I think what he means is that the miner sacrifices earnings and having to beef up security in order to stay alive. The cloaker seems to sacrifice nothing other than a lost opportunity for a kill. Miners are earning more than the AFK guy. This whole thread is a fine example of why removing local as an intel tool is a good thing to do. Cant hold up a system full of bears for days on end if they have no idea you are even there. And unlike the changes others in here want, removing local will hurt the marco ravens too.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.03 16:50:00 - [333] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/10/2010 16:51:58 Originally by: baltec1 Miners are earning more than the AFK guy. And that exonerates the AFKer from risk why exactly? A cloaker is accomplishing his goal, keeping the system on his toes and quite possibly halting productivity in the millions, billions, or trillions even. And there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this. The problem I have is when the system is on its toes but the predator is AFK at the movies eating popcorn keeping everyone else vigilant and alert while he himself doesn't need to be and no one having even a slim chance of catching and finding him. There is something fundamentally wrong with this. An AFK cloaker should have to face some consequences if he's not paying attention. Quote: This whole thread is a fine example of why removing local as an intel tool is a good thing to do. Cant hold up a system full of bears for days on end if they have no idea you are even there. And unlike the changes others in here want, removing local will hurt the marco ravens too. Go ahead and remove local. But it still doesn't add risk to the AFK CLOAKER. Remove local and change the mechanics so that if you're AFK'ing while forcing a system to be in alert that you yourself are exposed to risks of losing your ship and your pod. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.03 16:56:00 - [334] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Go ahead and remove local. But it still doesn't add risk to the AFK CLOAKER. Remove local and change the mechanics so that if you're AFK'ing while forcing a system to be in alert that you yourself are exposed to risks of losing your ship and your pod. If there was no local, the whole point of him being AFK would be gone, and he'd have to expose himself to risk in order to force people to be alert. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.03 17:30:00 - [335] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Go ahead and remove local. But it still doesn't add risk to the AFK CLOAKER. Remove local and change the mechanics so that if you're AFK'ing while forcing a system to be in alert that you yourself are exposed to risks of losing your ship and your pod. If there was no local, the whole point of him being AFK would be gone, and he'd have to expose himself to risk in order to force people to be alert. This. Your AFK cloakies problem is fixed and my issues with afk macro ravens ratting in near perfect safety is fixed.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.03 17:44:00 - [336] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Go ahead and remove local. But it still doesn't add risk to the AFK CLOAKER. Remove local and change the mechanics so that if you're AFK'ing while forcing a system to be in alert that you yourself are exposed to risks of losing your ship and your pod. If there was no local, the whole point of him being AFK would be gone, and he'd have to expose himself to risk in order to force people to be alert. This isn't true and you know this. The issue STILL EXISTS, mainly that the system inhabitants remain vigilant and alert for any potential threats (cloakers that may be in the system) while the AFK cloaker STILL CANNOT BE CAUGHT UNLESS HE CHOOSES TO BE CAUGHT. The cloaker can STILL CHOOSE to go AFK for days and weeks while the rest of the system needs to stay vigilant. Removing local does not in any way add any risk to the AFK cloaker keeping a system on its toes, even after local has been removed. I'm sorry, but your argument just doesn't hold. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.03 17:48:00 - [337] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Go ahead and remove local. But it still doesn't add risk to the AFK CLOAKER. Remove local and change the mechanics so that if you're AFK'ing while forcing a system to be in alert that you yourself are exposed to risks of losing your ship and your pod. If there was no local, the whole point of him being AFK would be gone, and he'd have to expose himself to risk in order to force people to be alert. This isn't true and you know this. The issue STILL EXISTS, mainly that the system inhabitants remain vigilant and alert for any potential threats (cloakers that may be in the system) while the AFK cloaker STILL CANNOT BE CAUGHT UNLESS HE CHOOSES TO BE CAUGHT. The cloaker can STILL CHOOSE to go AFK for days and weeks while the rest of the system needs to stay vigilant. Removing local does not in any way add any risk to the AFK cloaker keeping a system on its toes, even after local has been removed. I'm sorry, but your argument just doesn't hold. Tell me how would people know he was there? And why would anyone waste their time going AFK cloaking in a system for days on end if the locals cannot see that he is there?
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.10.03 17:52:00 - [338] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Go ahead and remove local. But it still doesn't add risk to the AFK CLOAKER. Remove local and change the mechanics so that if you're AFK'ing while forcing a system to be in alert that you yourself are exposed to risks of losing your ship and your pod. If there was no local, the whole point of him being AFK would be gone, and he'd have to expose himself to risk in order to force people to be alert. This isn't true and you know this. The issue STILL EXISTS, mainly that the system inhabitants remain vigilant and alert for any potential threats (cloakers that may be in the system) while the AFK cloaker STILL CANNOT BE CAUGHT UNLESS HE CHOOSES TO BE CAUGHT. The cloaker can STILL CHOOSE to go AFK for days and weeks while the rest of the system needs to stay vigilant. Removing local does not in any way add any risk to the AFK cloaker keeping a system on its toes, even after local has been removed. I'm sorry, but your argument just doesn't hold. Do you even stop to hear yourself and what you are saying ? I'm guessing not because if you did you would realize exactly how stupid what you say actually is.
dankness420	Posted - 2010.10.03 17:58:00 - [339] i dont see what the big deal is... even a rifter can kill a stealth bomber
Goremageddon Box Minmatar Guerrilla Flotilla	Posted - 2010.10.03 18:00:00 - [340] this troll seriously made it 10+ pages? you guys are noobs _______________________ Hottest Character Ever.
kasiloth	Posted - 2010.10.03 18:33:00 - [341] Originally by: dankness420 i dont see what the big deal is... even a rifter can kill a stealth bomber Please come to my system find this cloaked SB and kill him with a rifter. If u ever find him. All big talks. The reality is far more different.
kasiloth	Posted - 2010.10.03 18:39:00 - [342] Originally by: Balsak Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Go ahead and remove local. But it still doesn't add risk to the AFK CLOAKER. Remove local and change the mechanics so that if you're AFK'ing while forcing a system to be in alert that you yourself are exposed to risks of losing your ship and your pod. If there was no local, the whole point of him being AFK would be gone, and he'd have to expose himself to risk in order to force people to be alert. This isn't true and you know this. The issue STILL EXISTS, mainly that the system inhabitants remain vigilant and alert for any potential threats (cloakers that may be in the system) while the AFK cloaker STILL CANNOT BE CAUGHT UNLESS HE CHOOSES TO BE CAUGHT. The cloaker can STILL CHOOSE to go AFK for days and weeks while the rest of the system needs to stay vigilant. Removing local does not in any way add any risk to the AFK cloaker keeping a system on its toes, even after local has been removed. I'm sorry, but your argument just doesn't hold. Do you even stop to hear yourself and what you are saying ? I'm guessing not because if you did you would realize exactly how stupid what you say actually is. What is stupid man? Actually what is written above is the plain truth not understandable by most pvpers like u that use this tactic.
kasiloth	Posted - 2010.10.03 18:51:00 - [343] Actually what is written so far by the pvpers is nothing of value. Even pvpers cannot propose a solution for the afk cloaked cause simply the dont have any. And they dont have any cause there isnt any solution at all. They have the advandange and they use it. What they afraid more is to lose their advantage on that. To be unbitable all the way. But this is not fair. And CCP after all this debate here has to seriously consider of this.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.10.03 18:59:00 - [344] Originally by: kasiloth Actually what is written so far is nothing of value. Fix'ed! -- Fine Mag's no Purple ok! But I am the Snyper Queen!
ModeratedToSilence	Posted - 2010.10.03 19:02:00 - [345] Originally by: Alara IonStorm Originally by: kasiloth Actually what is written so far is nothing of value. Fix'ed! Please refrain from posting unless they contain content or are positioned to be first in the page as per the prescription of the popular 1996 internet meme commonly known as sniping.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.10.03 19:06:00 - [346] Originally by: ModeratedToSilence Originally by: Alara IonStorm Originally by: kasiloth Actually what is written so far is nothing of value. Fix'ed! Please refrain from posting unless they contain content or are positioned to be first in the page as per the prescription of the popular 1996 internet meme commonly known as sniping. I don't think you understand madam I am a Swiss Army Meme Generator! I am like the Dominix of Forum spam, but give me a good well thought out non rant OP and I will bring gold to the forum! I hasn't happened on General! -- Fine Mag's no Purple ok! But I am the Snyper Queen!
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.10.03 19:12:00 - [347] Why oh why... Just about any networked system, when having no activity from a client login, will eventually log the user out for inactivity. No input from client after a given time, means an automatic logout. What's wrong with having that? There is a difference between using a cloak to gather intel or pressure and enemy, but yes being able to walk away and go out leaving the cloaked ship there for endless hours is poor mechanics. What's worse is that they are using bandwidth that everybody pays for, and there are players who think it's only enough to dock, and also never log out. No input from client - log out. Better yet make it smarter: same repeating input from client = BOT and log them out and BAN them too. Evidently CCP drops the ball on this one. As for there being some way to defeat cloaks, no. The killmail addicts and Jan Bradys of Eve need to lighten up. A cloaked ship is harmless and there are many who use them because there are a lot of systems that are like the parking lot of the shopping mall from "Dawn of the Dead". The minute you "pop up" (thanks to local - which should be removed), it's like getting swarmed by zombies. As Matrix once said in C&P: "You guys won lowsec. Now you have no targets. Enjoy". And that fact is that many systems are inhabited by people who are docked up and surfing four-chan or pron and having nothing better to do except gank anyone who shows up. This is why there are many tales of T1 frigs being ganged up on by 6 or more battleships. One cloak can defeat that style of game play (which is not really play - it's just a chat room and a random chance to act like they are upsetting someone).
flummox Jupiter Ignition Project	Posted - 2010.10.03 19:30:00 - [348] Edited by: flummox on 03/10/2010 19:35:38 who the ** are you and why the do you care what i am doing? if i want to go to the mall (i don't) while afk who the ** are you to tell me i can't? it's my money and i'll play the game as i see fit. yeah, let's have more code written to check if players are not afk or giving input to the server. as if lag wasn't enough problems. also, any software that monitors my computer like that would be a huge violation of their own EULA. if CCP were able to do that, then i'd be able to do it back at them. and trust me, you don't want players to have that ability. and stop whining about Local. "remove local, waah. remove local, wah!" are you that dense to realize that CCP gave you two ways to avoid the Local threat: close the chat or go to a system that has no local channel, like wormholes. Local chat is the balance to the carebear areas of 0.0. aroo
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.03 19:34:00 - [349] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 This isn't true and you know this. The issue STILL EXISTS, mainly that the system inhabitants remain vigilant and alert for any potential threats No. The issue is made moot by the fact that the inhabitants must remain vigilant and alert regardless of whether or not cloakers even existed in the game. AFK cloaking simply ceases to be an issue because the (supposed) treat they represent becomes universal. Quote: while the AFK cloaker STILL CANNOT BE CAUGHT UNLESS HE CHOOSES TO BE CAUGHT. The cloaker can STILL CHOOSE to go AFK for days and weeks while the rest of the system needs to stay vigilant. àand the difference is that the only wait said cloaker could instil any additional fear above what a non-local environment would yield would be if he made his presence abundantly clear. This means exposing himself. This means putting himself at risk. Quote: Removing local does not in any way add any risk to the AFK cloaker keeping a system on its toes, even after local has been removed. I'm sorry, but your argument just doesn't hold. It adds risk because the role of the AFK cloaker is removed from the game. To fulfil the role of psychological warfare, he must risk his hide. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
dankness420	Posted - 2010.10.03 19:49:00 - [350] Originally by: kasiloth Originally by: dankness420 i dont see what the big deal is... even a rifter can kill a stealth bomber Please come to my system find this cloaked SB and kill him with a rifter. If u ever find him. All big talks. The reality is far more different. hey genius... in order for him to hurt you he has to uncloak...
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.03 19:59:00 - [351] Originally by: flummox Edited by: flummox on 03/10/2010 19:35:38 who the ** are you and why the do you care what i am doing? if i want to go to the mall (i don't) while afk who the ** are you to tell me i can't? it's my money and i'll play the game as i see fit. yeah, let's have more code written to check if players are not afk or giving input to the server. as if lag wasn't enough problems. also, any software that monitors my computer like that would be a huge violation of their own EULA. if CCP were able to do that, then i'd be able to do it back at them. and trust me, you don't want players to have that ability. and stop whining about Local. "remove local, waah. remove local, wah!" are you that dense to realize that CCP gave you two ways to avoid the Local threat: close the chat or go to a system that has no local channel, like wormholes. Local chat is the balance to the carebear areas of 0.0. Your argument is very weak. A player mining in 0.0 and AFK would suffer dire consequences if caught. No one cares where he is because he can be killed for his stupidity in-game. No one cares where you are except that you are logged in excerting influence on a system while that system can have no influence on you. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Voith	Posted - 2010.10.03 21:29:00 - [352] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Acer Lorenz I think what he means is that the miner sacrifices earnings and having to beef up security in order to stay alive. The cloaker seems to sacrifice nothing other than a lost opportunity for a kill. Miners are earning more than the AFK guy. This whole thread is a fine example of why removing local as an intel tool is a good thing to do. Cant hold up a system full of bears for days on end if they have no idea you are even there. And unlike the changes others in here want, removing local will hurt the marco ravens too. No, it won't hurt macro ravens, they'll have a cloaked ship on the gate that sends the "dock up" singnal. It will have 0 effect on macroers. Perfect stealth is massively stupid. More and more PvP games are going away from having any stealth because it just doesn't work. If they're going to have a cloaking type device it should just hide you from local (and hide local from you), but leave you scannable. It lets the hunters hunt and prevents lame **** like flooding systems with Trial accounts in AFK cloaked Rifters.
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.10.03 22:49:00 - [353] Originally by: kasiloth Actually what is written so far by the pvpers is nothing of value. Even pvpers cannot propose a solution for the afk cloaked cause simply the dont have any. And they dont have any cause there isnt any solution at all. They have the advandange and they use it. What they afraid more is to lose their advantage on that. To be unbitable all the way. But this is not fair. And CCP after all this debate here has to seriously consider of this. This is nothing about pvper vs bear, this about stupidty for the sake of stupidity itself at this point. The so called pvpers don't need to propose a fix because there is nothing that needs fixing other than the perceived threat of someone who may or may not be afk. Solutions to a possible bomber attack have been posted numerous times but people like you and Matrix simply choose to ignore those options in favor of something not needed. Seriously, you people are whining about someone not at their keyboard being a threat. And if they weren't at their keyboard and actually attacked you there are defensive tactics you can use but choose not to. Are these afk cloakers messing up those macros that auto log people when a hostile enters local maybe ?
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.04 00:05:00 - [354] Originally by: Balsak Originally by: kasiloth Actually what is written so far by the pvpers is nothing of value. Even pvpers cannot propose a solution for the afk cloaked cause simply the dont have any. And they dont have any cause there isnt any solution at all. They have the advandange and they use it. What they afraid more is to lose their advantage on that. To be unbitable all the way. But this is not fair. And CCP after all this debate here has to seriously consider of this. This is nothing about pvper vs bear, this about stupidty for the sake of stupidity itself at this point. The so called pvpers don't need to propose a fix because there is nothing that needs fixing other than the perceived threat of someone who may or may not be afk. Solutions to a possible bomber attack have been posted numerous times but people like you and Matrix simply choose to ignore those options in favor of something not needed. Seriously, you people are whining about someone not at their keyboard being a threat. And if they weren't at their keyboard and actually attacked you there are defensive tactics you can use but choose not to. Are these afk cloakers messing up those macros that auto log people when a hostile enters local maybe ? What you continuously fail to realize or comment on is the lack of repercussions to the AFK cloaker. It isn't about protecting oneself against AFK cloakers. It has been pointed out numerous times that the inhabitants of a system can buddy up, tank their hulks, keep their intel channels open and alert, stop mining/ratting if it gets too dangerous, etc, etc, etc. This is all great advice. And you know what? It is fair play and part of living in 0.0. It comes with lots of risk. Now, explain to me what kind of threat can someone impose on a cloaker that is able to potentially keep a system on high alert? NONE. In fact, their own risk is so great they are able to park their ships cloaked for DAYS and WEEKS without EVER being at risk. EVER! Heh, so much for 0.0 being a scary place. In the mean time, guess who are still expected to be on high alert ? That's right, the system's inhabitants. And you know what? They should be in high alert. Because 0.0 is supposed to be about risk and danger. And you know what else? The cloaker, ESPECIALLY the AFK cloaker, who by the way, isn't paying attention to his gameplay, should have to face some consequences for not paying attention as well. So explain to me why these so-called PVPers cry, kick, and scream whenever someone proposes that players that are not at the keyboard paying attention be exposed to a bit of risk? These are the same PVPers that ***** and whine that Eve isn't hardcore enough for their targets. baltec1, one of these "hardcore" PVPers, was complaining that him having to shift from safe once in a while is too much work for him to have to remain safe . I guess he being able to pose a potential threat on a system while he himself can go take a nap is fair game to him :P But is it really? Every time I propose adding risk to these cloakers they come out in droves insulting, bashing, trolling, throwing names like "coward!1" "grow sum balls!1!" "carebear" "gb2wow", etc, when they in fact are the ones wanting it easy. Anything to distract from the fact that while they can and do pose a potential threat on a system they themselves remain tucked in their comfty safe blanket ready only to come out on their term. This isn't what Eve is or should be about and it needs some serious looking over. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Voith	Posted - 2010.10.04 00:23:00 - [355] Originally by: Balsak Originally by: kasiloth Actually what is written so far by the pvpers is nothing of value. Even pvpers cannot propose a solution for the afk cloaked cause simply the dont have any. And they dont have any cause there isnt any solution at all. They have the advandange and they use it. What they afraid more is to lose their advantage on that. To be unbitable all the way. But this is not fair. And CCP after all this debate here has to seriously consider of this. This is nothing about pvper vs bear, this about stupidty for the sake of stupidity itself at this point. The so called pvpers don't need to propose a fix because there is nothing that needs fixing other than the perceived threat of someone who may or may not be afk. Solutions to a possible bomber attack have been posted numerous times but people like you and Matrix simply choose to ignore those options in favor of something not needed. Seriously, you people are whining about someone not at their keyboard being a threat. And if they weren't at their keyboard and actually attacked you there are defensive tactics you can use but choose not to. Are these afk cloakers messing up those macros that auto log people when a hostile enters local maybe ? Your solution to 1 guy is to get 9 other guys. If it takes a 10:1 ratio to coutner how is that not the definition of overpowered?
ShahFluffers Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.10.04 01:01:00 - [356] Originally by: Voith Your solution to 1 guy is to get 9 other guys. If it takes a 10:1 ratio to coutner how is that not the definition of overpowered? Our solution is to make yourself as unattractive a target as possible. You don't need nine guys... just one that will make the stealth bomber/recon think twice. Any fast-locking sniper ship will accomplish this. Hell, even a logistics ship like a Scimitar or Onerios will accomplish this task. Honestly... risk adversity works both ways and it doesn't take much to make a fragile SB feel a situation is too risky. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Jodie Amille Rape of Virtue	Posted - 2010.10.04 01:11:00 - [357] You could be a bit proactive and change one of your 10(!) accounts into a sniping zealot and sit it with your mining op. I'm pretty sure that will be deterrence enough for a stealth bomber. --------
X Dead	Posted - 2010.10.04 01:28:00 - [358] Some clarifying points, made clear in possibly every other of these "nerf cloaks" threads: 1. Cloaking is not the only mechanism in which a ship becomes unscannable (do a bit of research). 2. If CCP were to remove the cloaking mechanism, your enemies will shift to another mechanism or tactic to achieve their goals as they will adapt. Originally by: Voith If they're going to have a cloaking type device it should just hide you from local (and hide local from you), but leave you scannable. It lets the hunters hunt and prevents lame **** like flooding systems with Trial accounts in AFK cloaked Rifters. 3. Re the above, you can't train Cloaking on trial accounts so the above specific tactic is moot.
Voith	Posted - 2010.10.04 04:07:00 - [359] Cloaking comes down to one fundamental question. Should you ever be perfectly safe in Eve Online? The Cloaking carebears say "Yes", then scream at how everyone else is a carebear for wanting it changed. People who bother to think realize that being perfectly safe is dumb.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.10.04 04:23:00 - [360] Originally by: Voith ~~Cloaking~~ Docking comes down to one fundamental question. Should you ever be perfectly safe in Eve Online? The ~~Cloaking~~ Docking carebears say "Yes", then scream at how everyone else is a carebear for wanting it changed. People who bother to think realize that being perfectly safe is dumb. Hey, fixed that for you. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.10.04 07:40:00 - [361] S N I P E R ! -- Fine Mag's no Purple ok! But I am the Snyper Queen!
feminakitten	Posted - 2010.10.04 08:13:00 - [362] Seems a lot of people are saying the miner op is not playing the game as intended and judging by the comments your probably right, but lets have a little balance. The AFK cloakers are playing the game correctly by waging psychological warefare, but all you miner haters are happily ignoring the fact that the AFK cloaker is also not playing the game the way its intended. AFK (Away From Keyboard), don't be a hypocrit criticising the miner while praising the actions of an AFK'er
Tcar Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.04 09:20:00 - [363] Originally by: kasiloth Edited by: kasiloth on 03/10/2010 18:57:42 First of all i appologize to u for my English but if i say what i want to say in my language nobody could understand me. What i want to say here is that the tactic of an enemy to send a stealth bomber in a system staying there afk for hrs preventing local miners or raters to work is becoming a curse with a high risk to ruin the entire game. Hoppless miners have to warp back to their pos in system to protect their ships and stay there watching despareted at the local till red or neut will go. This tactic drops the developement indices of the system rapidly make it easier for the enemy to conquer it. The defenders can do absolutely nothing to avoid this situation that is realy frustrated. They cannot track down the stealth bomber and kill him. And also they dont know if he is afk or not to send out baits to uncover him. It is a silly and sick situation. I can understand that stealth bombers are there to be used. But not that way. I can understand their right to jump into a system and kill as many macks or hulks they can kill. But to stay afk cloaked for hrs into a system that is another thing.It is not fair at all for the owner of the stealth bomber to use another alt of his to enjoy the game whilist the rest of the miners players sitting for hrs or maybe for days in their pos doing absolutely nothing. CCp must do something on that before players start leaving the game for good. I dont like to complain without a proposal, i would suggest CCp to deactivate cloacking device after a period of inactivity of lets say 30-60 min. So defenders could scan and chase the intruder. If anyone of u has the same problem and has something better to propose please do it here. Thank you *Kasiloth is an alt of mine for obvious reasons OP is the best troll since: http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/ I salute you OP.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.04 12:40:00 - [364] Originally by: feminakitten Seems a lot of people are saying the miner op is not playing the game as intended and judging by the comments your probably right, but lets have a little balance. The AFK cloakers are playing the game correctly by waging psychological warefare, but all you miner haters are happily ignoring the fact that the AFK cloaker is also not playing the game the way its intended. AFK (Away From Keyboard), don't be a hypocrit criticising the miner while praising the actions of an AFK'er Yup. It's the hipocrisy that abounds these forums. These are usually the same hardcore PVPers that go up in arms and critisize the use of macros by miners because it's cheating. Yet, in the Features and Ideas forums (and even here) there's a thread proposing an idea on how to make AFK cloakers vulnerable where these hardcore PVPers admit they'd use macros and whatever other means to bypass such an implementation. And yet there is NO OUTCRY. There's no one calling them evil for even thinking of doing that. Now imagine a miner or ratter coming to the forums and admitting he's thinking about using a macro . Hypocrisy at its best. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Wacktopia Bi-Tech Theory Focused Intentions	Posted - 2010.10.04 12:42:00 - [365] Lrn 2 Munin
Daenna Chrysi Amarr Psychedelic Party	Posted - 2010.10.04 13:53:00 - [366] just to toss in my 2isk.. In going with the submarine analogy to the stealth bombers and using sonar. There are 2 kinds of Sonar, the active and the passive. I would say that the current method is similar to the passive sonar, you only see what your sensors can detect. If a sub had gone quiet enough, you wont see it on passive sonar even if it is right next to you. Now the active sonar, it has a nasty drawback when you turn on the active sonar, you light up like a Christmas tree yourself. So as an solution to this, I would recommend something similar to the active sonar. Would take fuel to use, would lock you in place for the duration. Duration would be dependant on the amount of fuel in cargo hold, and skill. Could not be turned off before all fuel in hold is used. Like a normal Cyno, you would be clearly visible to the whole system in the overview. In exchange, all cloaked ships in range no matter whose they are, would be visible for the duration. IF your ship is destroyed while the active sonar is online, the effect of making all cloaked ships visible is removed instantly. To balance it the active sonar could be fitted onto interdictors or similar destroyer sized ships. Anything heavier and it would be easy to give the ship a serious tank that the SB cannot take out. This would work in two ways, it would make the interdictor a bait for the active SB pilots, or face being hunted down and killed. The duration based on fuel, would bring an additional degree of balance, since there would be no clear 10sec duration or anything like that it would be a hazardous job. What if the SB is an active one and attacks you before you are ready to flee? or what if the SB is an AFK cloaker, and you run out of fuel before it can be hunted down? The active sonar would not have system wide range, this way you need to move around the system and scan the region around you, and you cant all the time just sit outside your POS shield and lure the SB to its death by your POS guns.
Dragodos	Posted - 2010.10.04 14:18:00 - [367] Ease way to solve this problem. Disconect a client if he is more than 15 min AFK. If the is no activity on the client in more than 15 min there should be a warning pop up to be cliked. If not, log out from the server.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.04 14:36:00 - [368] Originally by: Voith Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Acer Lorenz I think what he means is that the miner sacrifices earnings and having to beef up security in order to stay alive. The cloaker seems to sacrifice nothing other than a lost opportunity for a kill. Miners are earning more than the AFK guy. This whole thread is a fine example of why removing local as an intel tool is a good thing to do. Cant hold up a system full of bears for days on end if they have no idea you are even there. And unlike the changes others in here want, removing local will hurt the marco ravens too. No, it won't hurt macro ravens, they'll have a cloaked ship on the gate that sends the "dock up" singnal. It will have 0 effect on macroers. Perfect stealth is massively stupid. More and more PvP games are going away from having any stealth because it just doesn't work. If they're going to have a cloaking type device it should just hide you from local (and hide local from you), but leave you scannable. It lets the hunters hunt and prevents lame **** like flooding systems with Trial accounts in AFK cloaked Rifters. 4 gates means they will need 5 accounts to rat in a single system active for however long the raven is there and not making any isk. They can do it but its gonna mean they will have to pay for 4 more accounts which at the very least means less profits or more expensive isk which it good no matter how you look at it.
Cyrus Doul Infinite Covenant	Posted - 2010.10.04 15:07:00 - [369] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: flummox and the rest of you guys need to stop the Remove Local debate. it's been going on for years. and it's not even a solution for anything but your paranoia. the local channel is generated by the stargate that you use to jump in (kinda assuming this, but). if you want no local channel, then go to W-Space. as long as you are in a system that can have sovereignty, you'll have local. DEAL ! But only if coming into any system without using a stargate makes me NOT show up in local. Where do we sign, and how long does cyno 5 take? No seriously i would love this. BoPs gangs into provi would become awesomeer.
Hidden Sausage	Posted - 2010.10.04 15:14:00 - [370] No risk flying a Stealth Bomber? you ever been targeted? or shot at in a stealth bomber? they're not exactly Durable... And if the Stealth Bomber is infact afk... whats the issue? hes not at his keyboard.. resume life... zomgzors.. hes in my system! AFK !!! Invisible!! Doing nothing!!!! what ever sohuld i do?!?!?! cry 2 the forums... like the rest of the taint nibblers... if they nerf cloaks, they nerf my account into being unsubscribbed... Every Single MMO i have ever played, this happens... taint nibblers cry cry and cry for a nurf because they cant find a instant gratificating solution for there problems....
Razor Vision	Posted - 2010.10.04 15:35:00 - [371] Edited by: Razor Vision on 04/10/2010 15:36:54 Originally by: Hidden Sausage No risk flying a Stealth Bomber? you ever been targeted? or shot at in a stealth bomber? they're not exactly Durable... And if the Stealth Bomber is infact afk... whats the issue? hes not at his keyboard.. resume life... zomgzors.. hes in my system! AFK !!! Invisible!! Doing nothing!!!! what ever sohuld i do?!?!?! cry 2 the forums... like the rest of the taint nibblers... if they nerf cloaks, they nerf my account into being unsubscribbed... Every Single MMO i have ever played, this happens... taint nibblers cry cry and cry for a nurf because they cant find a instant gratificating solution for there problems.... You would literally unsubscribe if you were no longer allowed to "afk cloak" in enemy systems for hours on end? Is your life really that sad? That's really so important to you that you'd go to such an extreme as quit the game? You must really suck in RL if you need such a pathetic way to boost your ego. There's absolutely nothing special about anyone who AFK cloaks in systems. And for you to attach yourself so much to it, well that's just utterly pathetic and sad. Really, you need to find betters ways of 'pvping'. Because if this afk-cloaking mechanic is so important to you, then you really are 'doing it wrong'. Once you become good at real pvp, then you'll have a legit way of being satisfied with yourself. But until then, you're just a sad little space creature.
Jack Gilligan Caldari 1st Cavalry Division Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.04 15:48:00 - [372] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 04/10/2010 15:51:01 As I once stated on a thread about this in the CSM area, what is needed is a disincentive to be away from keyboard. ie: a mechanism that makes a cloaked ship become visible (and scannable) if it's remained in the same system with no activity for more than say, 30-60 minutes. Leaving the system and returning resets the clock. This would mean that someone who really wanted to be that cloaked red in local could still do it, but they'd have to actively remain bored to death at their keyboard instead of doing something else to accomplish it. I have nothing against cloakers, hell, I FLY black ops, recons, and bombers, I love doing the hotdrop surprise attack, but AFK cloaking as it currently works is giving people too much for zero effort. As for macros, for anyone, they should be an automatic permaban. If CCP put forth half an effort they could end macroing in this game just by analyzing their logs. Macros can be easily distinguished from human activity by their machine precision. Frankly I don't think CCP is serious about cracking down on macros because of all the money they'd lose from Russia and China.
Napro Caldari Simplistic Syndicate Cha0s Theory	Posted - 2010.10.06 22:21:00 - [373] Originally by: Jodi Goulsti Originally by: Napro People saying to mine with an escort are down right retaarded! Mining profits are slim as it is... splitting them with an escort results in a loss since that escort could make more money ratting. Who in their right mind would take the option? Especially considering that the Cloaking griefer would never engage with you around so any chance of PvP is out the window? End this broken game mechanic that lets people play only when they'll win and is in effect, an "I Win" Button with a time delay Originally by: Tau Cabalander I don't worry about cloaked ships until they uncloak next to me. When that happens, I find this fit works well (don't forget the drones, or to overheat the hardeners): [Hulk, GTFO] Damage Control II 'Halcyon' Core Equalizer I Invulnerability Field II Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I Additional Thermal Barrier Emitter I Invulnerability Field II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Vespa EC-600 x5 And wheres the danger to the Cloaking griefer in this fit? OH wait.. That would entail losing your "I Win" Button.. What was I thinking..
SuicideDonkey	Posted - 2010.10.09 11:59:00 - [374] I haven't been playing for too long, but from my observations playing thus far, I can see the OPs point to a degree, if he's had a fleet hotdroped on him and there's nothing to be done about it besides a jammed system, the continued threat of that can be argued (and it has been) as unbalanced, and if he's upset that one singular lone SB is taking potshots at him and harassing him, well, that's part of the game. I don't care about the whole afk thing, if someone wants to sit in a station afk all day, then well, yay......that sounds...um...fun?, and for the most part, afk is a risk of it own, regardless of sec rating. Following the fairly appropriate submarine analogy, CCP should just do a T3 destroyer that can equip a rig that can scan down stealth ships, not perfectly of course, but enough to keep a stealth ship on their toes, give it a bomb launcher that does a small radius but high damage...or something like that, I'm not to concerned about the mechanics, that's CCPs thing, and the ships specifically designed with stealth in mind should be buffed in some way, maybe make SBs hit a lot harder, Coverts faster, and so on. On the subject of local, personally I'd say that removing it would cause me to go back to highsec, as risk vs reward would become unacceptable for me in low and nullsec as a solo miner, it's a valuable tool that has saved my hulk on many occasions, I haven't pvped much, so I can't honestly make a informed opinion on that. I just figured I throw my penny in.
afndayle	Posted - 2010.10.09 13:25:00 - [375] As a person who has both mined and ratted in 0.0, dealing with afk cloakers was never a big deal. They enter system, dock up. If they're still there after 15 minutes, hop in a shuttle and warp around a little bit. No sign of 'em? Get back to mining and ratting. The vast majority of the ships I lost while making isk occurred from me not paying attention and having gangs scan me out quickly. Not from solo stealth bombers.

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