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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.05 15:27:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Whitehound No. Missile damage always gets a penalty with moving targets.
No, that's turrets (unless transversal is exactly zero despite movement ofc).
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:03:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Whitehound on 05/10/2010 17:04:17
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Whitehound No. Missile damage always gets a penalty with moving targets.
No, that's turrets (unless transversal is exactly zero despite movement ofc).
No. Turrets can hit a moving target with peak DPS, or not. Missiles can never hit a moving target with peak DPS. --
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:46:00 -
[33]
No, as I said, that's the wrong way round. When I get home I'll explain why, unless you can figure it out in the meantime.
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:52:00 -
[34]
I'm confused.... your complaining that a drake is good at exactly the role it was designed to do? I would hope so... otherwise it'd be ****.
There are quite a few ways to effectively counter a drake fleet.
Quote: This setup does 561 DPS with drones (60km) and 462 DPS all the way out to its locking range (75km) On top of this incredible DPS, it has a ridiculous 83k EHP and it can target paint smaller targets, totally raping frigs and other tackle and making sure the Fury missiles do full damage to all targets.
Hurricane with all skills at 5 (which I assume is what you rated your one with) can put out 800dps with 52.3k EHP. It does have to be a practically zero to do that much damage but with this fit (that includes a scrambler) without the scram you can hit 64k EHP with less speed/sig radius problems than heavy missiles without mods. Also it can do 1.5km/s with it's MWD on and can run everything (MWD + scram + invuns) for 7 mins solid without problems.
The two are comparable. Other Tier 2 BCs have other advantages, myrm has massive dps when blaster fit or decent ranged power when rail fit as well as having a very nice drone bay, harby is basically the same as the 'cane but slower and with longer range. All the Tier 2 BCs have their niche. My only complaint about the drake would be that it's perhaps too good at the short - mid range fits.
BTW, if you are fighting people with the fits you've linked, bring a few ewar frigs with sensor damps and watch them cry as they crawl 30+kms to try and get in range again. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:54:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Space Pinata
Fury missiles are terrible at hitting small targets.
At 2 TPs per ship, you're lighting up frigates like they're carriers.
Originally by: Space Pinata
At max range, you're talking about 13 seconds before your first missiles hit.
You don't want to engage at max range, because there's chances that the range will change slightly and none of your missiles will hit. In actual engagements on TQ, I find the range is usually 50-60km
Originally by: Space Pinata
At 70km, the Beam Harbinger only does 305 DPS, as compared to 462. However; assuming they lock at the same time, the Harbinger has a 13 second head start. By the time the drakes first volley hits, the Harbinger has already dealt 3965 damage. At a DPS advantage of 157 damage/second, it then takes 25 seconds for the drake to catch up. 38 seconds in, both will have done about 11500. (11500 harb, 11550 drake). 60 seconds in: The harbinger will have done 18300 damage, the drake will have done 21714. tl;dr for people who don't want to read math:
In a sniper fight, the Harbinger is at a DPS advantage for the first 38 seconds. At a full minute, the drake has managed to deal 15~% more damage than the harbinger.
So the Harbinger (even 300~ dps vs 450~) wins if your primaries go down fast, and the drake wins slightly in a slower battle, much more significantly if you spend several minutes shooting one target (this should never happen in a fleet big enough to actually use sniping tactics. Just saying.)
Check out how much EHP your Harb setup has. Drakes can do less DPS and win if they have 2x your EHP. A 10 second delay in damage application is a detriment, yes, but smart FCing can offset most of this (switching targets when your primary is in structure).
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Black Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:21:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Space Pinata
Fury missiles are terrible at hitting small targets.
At 2 TPs per ship, you're lighting up frigates like they're carriers.
Originally by: Space Pinata
At max range, you're talking about 13 seconds before your first missiles hit.
You don't want to engage at max range, because there's chances that the range will change slightly and none of your missiles will hit. In actual engagements on TQ, I find the range is usually 50-60km
Originally by: Space Pinata
At 70km, the Beam Harbinger only does 305 DPS, as compared to 462. However; assuming they lock at the same time, the Harbinger has a 13 second head start. By the time the drakes first volley hits, the Harbinger has already dealt 3965 damage. At a DPS advantage of 157 damage/second, it then takes 25 seconds for the drake to catch up. 38 seconds in, both will have done about 11500. (11500 harb, 11550 drake). 60 seconds in: The harbinger will have done 18300 damage, the drake will have done 21714. tl;dr for people who don't want to read math:
In a sniper fight, the Harbinger is at a DPS advantage for the first 38 seconds. At a full minute, the drake has managed to deal 15~% more damage than the harbinger.
So the Harbinger (even 300~ dps vs 450~) wins if your primaries go down fast, and the drake wins slightly in a slower battle, much more significantly if you spend several minutes shooting one target (this should never happen in a fleet big enough to actually use sniping tactics. Just saying.)
Check out how much EHP your Harb setup has. Drakes can do less DPS and win if they have 2x your EHP. A 10 second delay in damage application is a detriment, yes, but smart FCing can offset most of this (switching targets when your primary is in structure).
In a proper sized bc sniper gang the harbs win out due to killing the targets quickly, its why zealots are considered better snipers than cerberus, the instant damage means alot in sniper gangs
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:26:00 -
[37]
Remote sensor dampeners.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:29:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Gypsio III No, as I said, that's the wrong way round. When I get home I'll explain why, unless you can figure it out in the meantime.
No. If you do not already understand when I write that you begin to compare apples with oranges then more factors you put into a comparison then there is no hope that you will understand anything that I write. Sorry. --
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.05 19:06:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Gypsio III No, as I said, that's the wrong way round. When I get home I'll explain why, unless you can figure it out in the meantime.
No. If you do not already understand when I write that you begin to compare apples with oranges then more factors you put into a comparison then there is no hope that you will understand anything that I write. Sorry.
Sigh.
A missile will do full damage if the target that it hits is A) travelling slower than its explosion velocity, and B) has a sig larger than its explosion radius. It will also do full damage to a target travelling faster than its explosion velocity if the target's sig is proportionally greater than its explosion radius. These conditions are fairly straightforward to meet.
A turret will do full damage if transversal is zero and tracking pays no part. Since transversal is almost never exactly zero, this condition is extremely hard to meet and therefore "full" damage is very hard to achieve, although obviously as transversal falls close to zero then damage will become very close to "full".
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.05 19:13:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Gypsio III A turret will do full damage if transversal is zero and tracking pays no part. Since transversal is almost never exactly zero, this condition is extremely hard to meet and therefore "full" damage is very hard to achieve, although obviously as transversal falls close to zero then damage will become very close to "full".
No. As far as I know is the damage amount of turrets completely random and DPS calculations merely represent the average amount of it. The damage amount does do not depend on the transversal speed of the target. The transversal speed only determines if the target is hit or missed. --
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ShahFluffers
Gallente Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.10.05 19:42:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Gypsio III A turret will do full damage if transversal is zero and tracking pays no part. Since transversal is almost never exactly zero, this condition is extremely hard to meet and therefore "full" damage is very hard to achieve, although obviously as transversal falls close to zero then damage will become very close to "full".
No. As far as I know is the damage amount of turrets completely random and DPS calculations merely represent the average amount of it. The damage amount does do not depend on the transversal speed of the target. The transversal speed only determines if the target is hit or missed.
Incorrect. Transversal is taken into account when dealing damage AS WELL as hitting or missing. That's WHY the DPS of turrets is so "random."
I know Liang has the actual arithmetic for calculating the DPS of turrets and launchers. Wait until he (she?) gets here. _______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Macs Mayhem
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Posted - 2010.10.05 20:03:00 -
[42]
Originally by: darius mclever the irony. after all those years of people laughing on drakes and how useless they are in pvp.
this
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.05 20:19:00 -
[43]
Originally by: ShahFluffers Incorrect. Transversal is taken into account when dealing damage AS WELL as hitting or missing. That's WHY the DPS of turrets is so "random."
I know Liang has the actual arithmetic for calculating the DPS of turrets and launchers. Wait until he (she?) gets here.
According to this is it completely random. --
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.05 20:46:00 -
[44]
I don't know much about missile DPS, but I've seen drakes hit me for the EXACT same damage over and over again regardless of my maneuvering/whether I have MWD on or off, so it bears the assumption that missiles have a very low threshold at which they plateu, that is it doesn't take much for them to do full DPS on a target.
Turret DPS I do know backwards and forwards, don't want to get into it now but it is always random yes but it has a great deal to do with transversal too.
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Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.10.08 21:26:00 -
[45]
There are sooo many factors which contribute to how good a ship is. At the end of the day the closest you can get to determine how good a ship is would be to look at how many people pvp with the ship. So I go and check the eve-kill killboard (pulls from thousands of KBs) and I was surprised at how the Drake just dominates the the other ships in kills. I remember when the falcon was on top (then nerfed) and vaga was on top (then nerfed), but neither came ever came even close to the existing drake numbers.
Rank / Ship / Kills 1 Drake 196690 2 Hurricane 77399 3 Zealot 73885 4 Megathron 35232 5 Vagabond 34021 6 Harbinger 29020 7 Tempest 28938 8 Armageddon 23182 9 Apocalypse 22094 10 Muninn 21658
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Saelie
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Posted - 2010.10.08 23:32:00 -
[46]
I'd be curious how many Drakes were LOST as well compared to other ships. Given that the Drake is the most common ship in EVE (Next to the Hulk, sometimes) it makes sense that it would get the most kills. It also probably has the most losses, as well.
It's additionally important to remember that being on the killmail doesn't mean a whole lot. Drakes tend to get on lots of killmails by virtue of the fact that they tend to tank better than they deal damage - This means they're low priority for a good FC. The other ships up there are on fewer kills because they die first, which means they're on fewer kills, while the Drake is free to sit there and plug away and get on every kill in an engagement before it dies.
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Joe Phoenix
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Posted - 2010.10.09 01:43:00 -
[47]
LEAVE THE CALDARI ALONE!
Strong shields and missiles that can pick you off at double your max range.
THIS IS WHAT WE DO!
POWER TO THE CALDARI!
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.09 09:25:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Solid Star There are sooo many factors which contribute to how good a ship is. At the end of the day the closest you can get to determine how good a ship is would be to look at how many people pvp with the ship. So I go and check the eve-kill killboard (pulls from thousands of KBs) and I was surprised at how the Drake just dominates the the other ships in kills. I remember when the falcon was on top (then nerfed) and vaga was on top (then nerfed), but neither came ever came even close to the existing drake numbers.
Rank / Ship / Kills 1 Drake 196690 2 Hurricane 77399 3 Zealot 73885 4 Megathron 35232 5 Vagabond 34021 6 Harbinger 29020 7 Tempest 28938 8 Armageddon 23182 9 Apocalypse 22094 10 Muninn 21658
These numbers also include carebears getting ganked. For ships like the Muninn that's a pretty small number, but for the Drake it's a considerably greater contribution to those numbers...
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darius mefrel
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Posted - 2010.10.09 12:51:00 -
[49]
Edited by: darius mefrel on 09/10/2010 12:55:51
Originally by: Aerilis Yes, I EFT quite a bit, but I came to think HML Drake's are OP because of in game encounters... I'm in Gallente militia, so we fight the Caldari militia.. ahem Drakes. Lately they all fit for range, and just stay out of our range. We try to counter with range BCs as well, but obviously we don't have as many Drake pilots. Like I said, TRY to make a range fit for any other BC. We still manage to fight them with smart warp-ins and such, but my point is that no other BC comes even REMOTELY close to the range capabilities of the Drake.
Just a question of the right Tactics, the Caldari use their Longrange-potential, why aren't the Gallente use their Potential? I mean, they warp in at Longrange and you're unable to get into your range? then use Sensor Dampeners or ECM. They are to far away and got to much Drakes? them warp in an cloaked Recon, get it in range and make an Warp-In for your Brutixes, good fitted attack-Brutixes with T2-Setup's are able to deliver about 880 DPS (980 overheat)with Dualwebb and with some fleet-fitted Oneiros' with good Logistic-Pilots in the Attack-squad, you crush minimum 4-5 Drakes per attack with good target-calling and good balancing of the Points/Webbs.
@ the Situation wich you've described: It's your fault. They dictated the Range and you try to come along on the same Range, instead of changing Tactics. Never fight to the Enemie's Condition! Force them to Fight to your Conditions!
TL:DR In easy Words: If they use Tactics, be creative and simply counter them, find a good FC, and some Pilots with routine, and the Drakes won't be a problem. btw. before the Drake's get nerved, ccp better take's a look at the Brutix, their DPS, their potential is "OP" in the hands of good Pilots (and it's cheap!)
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Zekuloth
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Posted - 2010.10.09 14:24:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Solid Star There are sooo many factors which contribute to how good a ship is. At the end of the day the closest you can get to determine how good a ship is would be to look at how many people pvp with the ship. So I go and check the eve-kill killboard (pulls from thousands of KBs) and I was surprised at how the Drake just dominates the the other ships in kills. I remember when the falcon was on top (then nerfed) and vaga was on top (then nerfed), but neither came ever came even close to the existing drake numbers.
Rank / Ship / Kills 1 Drake 196690 2 Hurricane 77399 3 Zealot 73885 4 Megathron 35232 5 Vagabond 34021 6 Harbinger 29020 7 Tempest 28938 8 Armageddon 23182 9 Apocalypse 22094 10 Muninn 21658
How many people pvp with a ship doesnt really tell you how good at pvp said ship is. that only shows that the Drake is the only decent ship that Caldari have, buff the rest of the Caldari ships for pvp thanks.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.09 14:56:00 -
[51]
Originally by: darius mefrel Just a question of the right Tactics, the Caldari use their Longrange-potential, why aren't the Gallente use their Potential? I mean, they warp in at Longrange and you're unable to get into your range? then use Sensor Dampeners or ECM. They are to far away and got to much Drakes? them warp in an cloaked Recon, get it in range and make an Warp-In for your Brutixes, good fitted attack-Brutixes with T2-Setup's are able to deliver about 880 DPS (980 overheat)with Dualwebb and with some fleet-fitted Oneiros' with good Logistic-Pilots in the Attack-squad, you crush minimum 4-5 Drakes per attack with good target-calling and good balancing of the Points/Webbs.
This is what people are complaining about! The Drake does not need any tactics. It is a no-brainer. --
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darius mefrel
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Posted - 2010.10.09 15:56:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: darius mefrel Just a question of the right Tactics, the Caldari use their Longrange-potential, why aren't the Gallente use their Potential? I mean, they warp in at Longrange and you're unable to get into your range? then use Sensor Dampeners or ECM. They are to far away and got to much Drakes? them warp in an cloaked Recon, get it in range and make an Warp-In for your Brutixes, good fitted attack-Brutixes with T2-Setup's are able to deliver about 880 DPS (980 overheat)with Dualwebb and with some fleet-fitted Oneiros' with good Logistic-Pilots in the Attack-squad, you crush minimum 4-5 Drakes per attack with good target-calling and good balancing of the Points/Webbs.
This is what people are complaining about! The Drake does not need any tactics. It is a no-brainer.
Staying out of the Enemy range is a tactic, Dictating the Range is a tactic. Same tactic why Bs-Gangs attack POSes at +-150km. Sure the Drake is a F1-F7-Fire-and-forget-Ship, but that fit to the most Ships wich uses Missiles. But if they don't got tactics, how are they able to kill stuff? Do they got the secret-CCP->50km-Warp-Scrambler? nope. Do they Insta-pop Stuff like a bunch of Zealot's? nope. Are those Caldari Militia-Pilot's the only one wich are able to fit and Fly these Drake's? nope. For myself i Prefer trying to engage a 15-man-Drake-Fleet than a 8-man-Cruiser-Gang including 4 Falcons.
btw I don't see any Problem with that "no-brainer"-thing. It's always good if the Enemy don't get experience and can't learn from their own Tactics, better for the other side, if their Enemie's don't use their Brain. Especially if they set on a Setup of Ships wich can be beaten with a little bit of Tactics, Leadership and Preperation.
just my two ISK to that.
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Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.10.09 20:04:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Zekuloth
Originally by: Solid Star There are sooo many factors which contribute to how good a ship is. At the end of the day the closest you can get to determine how good a ship is would be to look at how many people pvp with the ship. So I go and check the eve-kill killboard (pulls from thousands of KBs) and I was surprised at how the Drake just dominates the the other ships in kills. I remember when the falcon was on top (then nerfed) and vaga was on top (then nerfed), but neither came ever came even close to the existing drake numbers.
Rank / Ship / Kills 1 Drake 196690 2 Hurricane 77399 3 Zealot 73885 4 Megathron 35232 5 Vagabond 34021 6 Harbinger 29020 7 Tempest 28938 8 Armageddon 23182 9 Apocalypse 22094 10 Muninn 21658
How many people pvp with a ship doesnt really tell you how good at pvp said ship is. that only shows that the Drake is the only decent ship that Caldari have, buff the rest of the Caldari ships for pvp thanks.
Not true as most people that PVP cross train at least one other race ships. That also does not explain all the Drake gangs you see. I don't think the FC is looking for only Caldari race pilots for the drake gang.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.09 23:44:00 -
[54]
Oooook, so it's fine for Minmatar to have the best guns all round, but god forbid Caldari should have debatably (bolded for emphasis) one of the best t1 battlecruisers? Riiiiight. Cry the **** more please. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.10.10 00:46:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Oooook, so it's fine for Minmatar to have the best guns all round, but god forbid Caldari should have debatably (bolded for emphasis) one of the best t1 battlecruisers? Riiiiight. Cry the **** more please.
Nah, I am not saying to nerf the Drake. That would actually hurt me as I fly in drake gangs. And Caldari are limited in their PVP options so some could argue you balances out. What I don't like is people pretending it is not a good pvp boat because they fear CCP will nerf it.
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Luthair StoneDog
Gallente Wormhole XXXtreme
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Posted - 2010.10.10 03:23:00 -
[56]
STEP 1. Hit f1-7 STEP 2. Go have a poo. STEP 3. Come back and see that Drake has done PvP for you.
Your input. Not required.
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EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2010.10.10 04:24:00 -
[57]
I would counter with a Deimos or other Short Range high speed cruiser/battle cruiser. CCRES is recruiting pilots who want to live in WSpace/Wormholes. Fill out an application here! |
Tamahra
Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch
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Posted - 2010.10.10 06:33:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Aerilis So we all know how everyone says Drakes are OP
i like how the op already disqualifies himself in the first sentence, with a clueless statement, out of thin air
so i stopped reading there
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Czert ElPrezidente
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.14 16:19:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Oh look, an EFT warrior.
All missileboats do more damage at long range than gunboats. Check out the stats of a cruise raven vs a sniper geddon or a cerb vs zealot.
I think is is needed, because all guns have insta damage and missiles have delayed damage, and I dont talk about wastingf ammo if target is destroyed while missiles on they way or your missiles can be shoot down by anti-missiles. ------------------------------------------------
Signature removed not EVE related - Adida |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2010.10.14 17:55:00 -
[60]
Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced. When you get 50+ of them all buffer tanking and alpha striking people at upto ~85km as the current FOTM strategy is out there, this underpins their usefulness (max buffer for sig/speed tank and max range with same damage) so this is a scenario specific issue to large fleet warfare. There are counter strategies to this, but drakes+scimitars is an easier to coordinate. The drakes tank or specifically its passive tank does concern us where both can be equally affected in a similar way. Food for thought anyway, we rarely intervene with emergent strategies and tactics as a counter usually matures after some time but will keep an eye on this thread to see what the rest of you think.
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