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Zelot Blueice XTC Cartel	Posted - 2010.10.14 20:49:00 - [91] My specuation on how much you spent was based on what I saw come up on immediate orders in such a large quantity. As for why, I have no idea. Perhaps to make a name for yourself? Corner the plex market? Be an example to CCP? I am not really sure, but please tell.
Ash Donai	Posted - 2010.10.14 21:00:00 - [92] Maybe he just needed some PLEX right then and there. In the end it doesn't really matter what the PLEX cost is, either you can easily generate enough ISK to cover your subs (whether it's 400 or 600mil/mo) or you can't. If you can easily make 400 then you can easily make 600 without much extra effort at all. If you can't then PLEX buying isn't for you in the first place and you may want to look at selling instead.
Ash Donai	Posted - 2010.10.14 21:07:00 - [93] Edited by: Ash Donai on 14/10/2010 21:08:46 .
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.14 22:01:00 - [94] Originally by: Ash Donai If you can easily make 400 then you can easily make 600 without much extra effort at all. Using that logic taken to its inevitable absurd end, 1+1=infinity, amirite ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Ash Donai	Posted - 2010.10.14 22:36:00 - [95] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Ash Donai If you can easily make 400 then you can easily make 600 without much extra effort at all. Using that logic taken to its inevitable absurd end, 1+1=infinity, amirite ? Actually 1+1=4 for very large numbers of 1. Still, economy of scale obviously applies as most all traders are well aware of. It's fairly easy to make X per month with little effort, however, making X+1 is significantly more difficult even if you put in a lot of effort. This works with 400/600mil and to a lesser degree with 4/6bil, but obviously not with 40/60bil.
Fan Li	Posted - 2010.10.14 22:42:00 - [96] Originally by: Ash Donai Why would it be in CCPs interest to raise PLEX prices? So that fewer people trade their ISK for PLEX, which means fewer PLEX are sold for ISK, which means fewer PLEX are bought for RL cash, which means less RL cash into CCPs coffers? Did you consider that an increase in price would spike purchases of PLEX with cash and give the company a temporary boost in working capital and/or liquidity? Certainly more people buy PLEX with cash to sell for ISK when plex is 400m versus 300m...
Fan Li	Posted - 2010.10.14 22:45:00 - [97] Originally by: Ash Donai Still, economy of scale obviously applies as most all traders are well aware of. It's fairly easy to make X per month with little effort, however, making X+1 is significantly more difficult even if you put in a lot of effort. This works with 400/600mil and to a lesser degree with 4/6bil, but obviously not with 40/60bil. I'm not sure you understand what "Economies of Scale" are (or maybe I don't)...economies of scale have to do with costs and would be better used to determine the value of things like....the Accounting or Broker Relations skill...no?
Salvage Queen	Posted - 2010.10.14 22:47:00 - [98] Originally by: Ash Donai Edited by: Ash Donai on 14/10/2010 21:11:57 Maybe he just needed some PLEX right then and there. In the end it doesn't really matter what the PLEX cost is, either you can easily generate enough ISK to cover your subs (whether it's 400 or 600mil/mo) or you can't. If you can easily make 400 then you can easily make 600 without much extra effort at all. If you can't then PLEX buying isn't for you in the first place and you may want to look at selling instead. Originally by: eliaja Originally by: Marshiro ITS CCP CONSPIRACY TO RAISE PLEX PRICES? there may be more truth to that than we all may realize. tbh thats exactly what i would do if this were my company. No you wouldn't or you wouldn't be running it very long. Why would it be in CCPs interest to raise PLEX prices? So that fewer people trade their ISK for PLEX, which means fewer PLEX are sold for ISK, which means fewer PLEX are bought for RL cash, which means less RL cash into CCPs coffers? Yup, that sure makes a lot of sense! If anything it's someone trying to shaft CCP by raising the PLEX price so CCP get's less RL cash from PLEX sales. Which then would support why CCP allows all kinds of scamming but will intervene when PLEX manipulation happens. Not that I think it's a conspiracy but your train of thought here is derailed. If it was a CCP conspiracy (and its not) it would be the same mechanic as putting a price floor in place through subsidy. The guys paying real life money are happier cause they get more isk, but some of the consumers are gonna have to cut back because the price is now above what they were willing to spend. There are plenty of real life examples in the farming industry where the gov't just goes ahead and buys crops to keep control of supply and therefore the price. It should be clear to everyone that the uptick is due at least in part to the remap annoucement. The manipulation probably wouldn't have stuck if others weren't buying in anticipation of a price increase at expansion time.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.14 22:50:00 - [99] Originally by: Fan Li Certainly more people buy PLEX with cash to sell for ISK when plex is 400m versus 300m... Not certainly at all. One could argue the exact opposite. People are more likely to sell PLEX because "they need X ISK for <reason>", not so much because "hey, I want to have more ISK for no particular reason whatsoever, damn, stuff's cheap, lemme' buy more"... so the more ISK they get for a PLEX, the less PLEX would need to be sold. Sure, SOME people might fall into the second category, but I'd wager most fall in the first. The total amount of traded ISK would indeed rise, but the total number of PLEX created for sale would go down. Which one of those is more prevalent is hard to tell. I guess we could watch PLEX sales volume. Hmm, it hasn't spiked proportionally to the price, but it has ever so slightly increased... on the other hand, we're reasonably sure that a lot of recent PLEX activity is market speculator activity, so you could almost conclude actual volume HAS gone down. Oh well, we'll know a bit more in a couple more months. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Fan Li	Posted - 2010.10.14 23:03:00 - [100] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Fan Li Certainly more people buy PLEX with cash to sell for ISK when plex is 400m versus 300m... Not certainly at all. I agree and should have made it more clear I was implying a speculative view, hence the ellipsis We can make threads all day, at the end of the day, it's ALL speculation
Ash Donai	Posted - 2010.10.14 23:07:00 - [101] Originally by: Fan Li Originally by: Ash Donai Still, economy of scale obviously applies as most all traders are well aware of. It's fairly easy to make X per month with little effort, however, making X+1 is significantly more difficult even if you put in a lot of effort. This works with 400/600mil and to a lesser degree with 4/6bil, but obviously not with 40/60bil. I'm not sure you understand what "Economies of Scale" are (or maybe I don't)...economies of scale have to do with costs and would be better used to determine the value of things like....the Accounting or Broker Relations skill...no? I don't think that in-game skills are relevant to this discussion. You are right in that I bunched the original economies of scale and it's opposite together into my preferred term of "economy of scale". The point is that it takes disproportionally less effort to make 6B than it takes to make 60B because whatever it is you do to make 6B doesn't scale well (or at all for that matter) up to 60B over the same time period. Originally by: Salvage Queen Originally by: Ash Donai Originally by: Marshiro ITS CCP CONSPIRACY TO RAISE PLEX PRICES? Not that I think it's a conspiracy but your train of thought here is derailed. If it was a CCP conspiracy (and its not) it would be the same mechanic as putting a price floor in place through subsidy. Just for the record, I didn't say it's a conspiracy, nor do I believe that it is one. I agree that subsidies would indicate a conspiracy.
Fan Li	Posted - 2010.10.14 23:18:00 - [102] Originally by: Ash Donai I don't think that in-game skills are relevant to this discussion. You are right in that I bunched the original economies of scale and it's opposite together into my preferred term of "economy of scale". The point is that it takes disproportionally less effort to make 6B than it takes to make 60B because whatever it is you do to make 6B doesn't scale well (or at all for that matter) up to 60B over the same time period. I don't think they do either, I wasn't introducing them as talking points, I was introducing them as examples of what could reflect "economies of scale" in game. I also agree on the effort bit, but it's a bit less "effort" and more just the plain fact that there are no more or less suitable investments for return...or that person/player can't achieve higher returns with a higher supply of capital due to their own downfalls...it's the same principle as to why we see responsible mutual/hedge funds close up voluntarily in real life.
Dana Gilmour	Posted - 2010.10.14 23:21:00 - [103] Originally by: Ash Donai Originally by: Fan Li Originally by: Ash Donai Still, economy of scale obviously applies as most all traders are well aware of. It's fairly easy to make X per month with little effort, however, making X+1 is significantly more difficult even if you put in a lot of effort. This works with 400/600mil and to a lesser degree with 4/6bil, but obviously not with 40/60bil. I'm not sure you understand what "Economies of Scale" are (or maybe I don't)...economies of scale have to do with costs and would be better used to determine the value of things like....the Accounting or Broker Relations skill...no? I don't think that in-game skills are relevant to this discussion. You are right in that I bunched the original economies of scale and it's opposite together into my preferred term of "economy of scale". The point is that it takes disproportionally less effort to make 6B than it takes to make 60B because whatever it is you do to make 6B doesn't scale well (or at all for that matter) up to 60B over the same time period. Yep let's take an economics term cos' it sounds cool and gives the impression that you really know your stuff and when someone points out that you don't really know what you're saying, let's invent another meaning for the respective term and keep babbling as if nothing happened. Really, re-read all your recent post, most of the things/expressions you used there make sense only in your head.
Ash Donai	Posted - 2010.10.15 00:10:00 - [104] Originally by: Fan Li or that person/player can't achieve higher returns with a higher supply of capital due to their own downfalls The downfall being time. There's only so much time and higher capital would lead to higher returns if the logistics of creating those returns couldn't chew up all the time essentially making higher returns during the same time period impossible.
Rasz Lin Caldari Racketeers	Posted - 2010.10.15 00:20:00 - [105] Originally by: Dositheus None of you have managed to figure out why I did it, although some have been reasonably close. Lets see, you are Bobbys alt and you needed PLEX to ebay it away for $$$ Originally by: Dositheus And... the speculation as to how much I spent in total, as well as the average cost per PLEX has been completely inaccurate thus far. about 600 PLEXes, 200-220B
Fan Li	Posted - 2010.10.15 00:29:00 - [106] Originally by: Ash Donai Originally by: Fan Li or that person/player can't achieve higher returns with a higher supply of capital due to their own downfalls The downfall being time. There's only so much time and higher capital would lead to higher returns if the logistics of creating those returns couldn't chew up all the time essentially making higher returns during the same time period impossible. Or inability to find more successful investment vehicles. This could stem from time, but could also stem from the investors lack of experience, as well as other things.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.10.15 05:24:00 - [107] lol, if you combine the posts of Fan Li and Akita T you finally arrive at the idea of market equilibrum.
Zelot Blueice XTC Cartel	Posted - 2010.10.15 13:52:00 - [108] Plex prices are slowly coming down now. 387M now
Dana Gilmour	Posted - 2010.10.15 14:19:00 - [109] Originally by: Zelot Blueice Plex prices are slowly coming down now. 387M now There are some people who try very hard to keep the price up by putting large buy orders. Will be very fun to watch.
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2010.10.15 17:46:00 - [110] Originally by: Dana Gilmour Originally by: Zelot Blueice Plex prices are slowly coming down now. 387M now There are some people who try very hard to keep the price up by putting large buy orders. Will be very fun to watch. CCP ?
Dana Gilmour	Posted - 2010.10.15 18:49:00 - [111] Edited by: Dana Gilmour on 15/10/2010 18:53:36 Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Originally by: Dana Gilmour Originally by: Zelot Blueice Plex prices are slowly coming down now. 387M now There are some people who try very hard to keep the price up by putting large buy orders. Will be very fun to watch. CCP ? Yeah, CCP is surely buying and selling PLEXes in Jita. Conspiracy theory much? Besides that, would make no sense for CCP to want higher PLEX prices. All they want is to sell more PLEXes, the in-game ISK price doesn't matter to CCP at all. In the end, if PLEX price would rise too high, CCP would end up losing subscriptions. But surely, if enough morons/manipulators post 100 times that CCP want the PLEX prices to be higher, there are always plain morons which take their word for it.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2010.10.15 20:08:00 - [112] Originally by: Dana Gilmour Yeah, CCP is surely buying and selling PLEXes in Jita. You miss the point. CCP wouldn't have to buy and sell. That would be pointless. They could buy and trash them. It is very simple. Higher PLEX prices mean it is more attractive for people to buy PLEX from CCP which directly improves their bottom line. It also makes PLEX more competitive with RMT. Odds are the buyers are just investors hoping to hedge against inflation, but the conspiracy theory has always been a distinct possibility.
Rasz Lin Caldari Racketeers	Posted - 2010.10.15 20:09:00 - [113] Originally by: Dana Gilmour Originally by: Zelot Blueice Plex prices are slowly coming down now. 387M now There are some people who try very hard to keep the price up by putting large buy orders. Will be very fun to watch. Funny, I still sell few a day for >400mil
Dana Gilmour	Posted - 2010.10.15 20:11:00 - [114] Edited by: Dana Gilmour on 15/10/2010 20:13:09 Originally by: Claire Voyant Originally by: Dana Gilmour Yeah, CCP is surely buying and selling PLEXes in Jita. You miss the point. CCP wouldn't have to buy and sell. That would be pointless. They could buy and trash them. It is very simple. Higher PLEX prices mean it is more attractive for people to buy PLEX from CCP which directly improves their bottom line. It also makes PLEX more competitive with RMT. Odds are the buyers are just investors hoping to hedge against inflation, but the conspiracy theory has always been a distinct possibility. So why CCP would want PLEX prices to be higher again?
Ash Donai	Posted - 2010.10.15 20:18:00 - [115] Originally by: Dana Gilmour So why CCP would want PLEX prices to be higher again? Depends on from which way they look at it, considering that they actually have the data they certainly know more about PLEX dynamics than we do. Case #1: High PLEX prices More players pay RL cash for PLEX since PLEX yields high ISK which is desirable. CCP makes more RL cash on PLEX sales. Case #2: Low PLEX prices Fewer people buy PLEX for RL cash because the ISK yield is not favorable over say RMT or just in general over earning ISK in game. CCP makes less RL cash on PLEX sales. We have no idea about the integrity of the game. One can only hope that CCP doesn't simply generate ISK to buy PLEX, but they certainly have the capability of doing it.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2010.10.15 20:33:00 - [116] Originally by: Dana Gilmour Higher the PLEX price, some of the people which currently have multiple accounts payed by PLEX will give up some of those accounts. Or, why would CCP want fewer subscribers? If you renew your subscriptions with PLEX paid for by isk, CCP makes no money from you. They make it from the person who bought the PLEX from them in the first place. Number of subscribers is for bragging rights, but they would easily trade that for higher revenue.
Dana Gilmour	Posted - 2010.10.15 20:41:00 - [117] Originally by: Claire Voyant Originally by: Dana Gilmour Higher the PLEX price, some of the people which currently have multiple accounts payed by PLEX will give up some of those accounts. Or, why would CCP want fewer subscribers? If you renew your subscriptions with PLEX paid for by isk, CCP makes no money from you. They make it from the person who bought the PLEX from them in the first place. Number of subscribers is for bragging rights, but they would easily trade that for higher revenue. Right, you continue to make perfect sense. If those subscribers would cancel their accounts, the demand for PLEXes will go down, hence the prices would go down too. CCP doesn't care who payed the subscription as long as it's payed. A subscription is a subscription, period. Really, you fail to grasp even the simplest economics issues.
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2010.10.15 21:31:00 - [118] Originally by: Dana Gilmour Originally by: Claire Voyant Originally by: Dana Gilmour Higher the PLEX price, some of the people which currently have multiple accounts payed by PLEX will give up some of those accounts. Or, why would CCP want fewer subscribers? If you renew your subscriptions with PLEX paid for by isk, CCP makes no money from you. They make it from the person who bought the PLEX from them in the first place. Number of subscribers is for bragging rights, but they would easily trade that for higher revenue. Right, you continue to make perfect sense. If those subscribers would cancel their accounts, the demand for PLEXes will go down, hence the prices would go down too. CCP doesn't care who payed the subscription as long as it's payed. A subscription is a subscription, period. Really, you fail to grasp even the simplest economics issues. Actuallu you faild to grasp what he meant. He indeed has a point.
Dana Gilmour	Posted - 2010.10.15 21:53:00 - [119] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Actuallu you faild to grasp what he meant. He indeed has a point. Definitely he has a point. Only that the point doesn't make any sense.
Dana Gilmour	Posted - 2010.10.16 00:03:00 - [120] Under 380M and going down. Vacation for a week now, probably the bubble would have burst when I come back.

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