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GyokZoli Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.03 14:19:00 - [61] Originally by: Piugattuk One thing about eve seems to be all the evil players about, pan handlers and general trash flying about in the eve universe, when I see this it makes me sort of have less faith in mankind in general, sure they're are evil things i feel like doing but dont because i know them to be wrong, is it not even more important to do good when you know here you wont be "found out" hiding behind a keyboard, just a thought, any players feel like this sometimes here? They are roleplaying. I have had great disscussions with some of those pirates and they are great people. Well, not all of them, but you should keep in mind that it's an MMORPG after all, and many players are playing a role of an evil character.
Desirsar	Posted - 2011.02.03 14:26:00 - [62] Edited by: Desirsar on 03/02/2011 14:27:20 The answer to this is simple, just think about the psychological profile of a ganker. When in a position of strength, they use it without remorse to abuse those who are weaker. In most cases, if you met these people in real life and looked like you had an ounce of muscle on your body, the second they realized you were someone in the game who they ganked and you knew who they were as well, they'd set a land speed record for humans in running the other way. The original poster is likely asking for more people that would stand up and fight even from the weaker position. Sorry, guy, but that's a rare gem among the out of shape, excessive drinkers that still wear a frat fro or popped collar even though they got rejected from the fraternity they pledged, still live in government housing while working at rotating minimum wage jobs, or live off their parents. (Or some combination of those.) And this isn't even getting into the large number of countries where taking advantage of everything not explicitly written into law is simply the culture, rather than the aberration... Edit - Originally by: GyokZoli They are roleplaying. I have had great disscussions with some of those pirates and they are great people. Well, not all of them, but you should keep in mind that it's an MMORPG after all, and many players are playing a role of an evil character. Oops, forgot about the roleplayers. Okay, that's probably a good chunk of the playerbase, but nowhere near a majority. The type I describe above is far more common.
Fragwit	Posted - 2011.02.03 14:29:00 - [63] Originally by: Alpheias Edited by: Alpheias on 03/02/2011 05:29:55 Originally by: Piugattuk So i should do in life all that I please, you know what Satan worshipers believe, their motto is do as thee wilt, not that I'm pushing god but that is why we have the kind of problems we have in this world, that kind of thinking, mere animals are opportunistic, we can chooseto be above or below amongst animals...although I may be insulting animals You are calling animals satanists now? That isn't very nice of you as my cat is quite nice, even if he is opportunistic. I understand now why my cat keeps drawing pentagrams on the kitchen floor.
Mistress Darkside	Posted - 2011.02.03 14:32:00 - [64] I dont think you can define people as evil in general as it its all down to what society/someone perceives as evil. If you do something that society does not like, you will be punished by that society. I think the question is, is the punishment enough to stop you? Real Life answer : It is the consequences dictated by society that keep me in check on the rare times I cotemplate breaking the rules. In game answer : I embrace all things you call evil for my own pleasure as the consequences of my actions do not cause me any concern.
Ingvar Angst	Posted - 2011.02.03 14:35:00 - [65] Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 03/02/2011 14:36:06 There's no such thing as "evil". What there are are actions and consequences. Actions that result in consequences that negatively affect not only the individual but the communities ability to survive and thrive are considered "bad". We are evolutionarily programed to remove these individuals that harm our overall survival... if we were not, we wouldn't have lasted this long on the planet. As a result of our programming, we conceive of things as "good" or "bad/evil". However, online there is no true consequence for any action (aside from the minor risk of being banned, but individuals can go to other online games). In a game like Eve, where the rules are even looser than a lot of MMOs, you'll find people shifting to a much more "me only" approach and drastically far from a "community also". This disconnect from community repercussions and the perceived rewards for individual above others actions result in some people acting in ways online that they'd never do in real life. Dang Mistress... that was one hell of a ninja.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2011.02.03 15:21:00 - [66] Evil = selfish, simplified. If you refrain from doing evil deeds for fear of consequences it's still a selfish act and you're still a basically evil person. That is if you buy into the duality of good and evil. Being good is to think ahead, have empathy and show mercy as an investment in the future. That the one showed mercy will provide a more rewarding encounter the next time, be it as an advisary, trade partner or the enemy of an enemy. Self-interest still present for sure but not the be all of existence. Then again this doesn't apply to most people ingame as any monologue that long would be disrupted by lasers halfway into the second sentence. This message was brought to you by Danton Marcellus and I disapprove of your new faces. Also Known As
Master Gotama	Posted - 2011.02.03 16:18:00 - [67] Originally by: Danton Marcellus Evil = selfish, simplified. If you refrain from doing evil deeds for fear of consequences it's still a selfish act and you're still a basically evil person. That is if you buy into the duality of good and evil. Being good is to think ahead, have empathy and show mercy as an investment in the future. That the one showed mercy will provide a more rewarding encounter the next time, be it as an advisary, trade partner or the enemy of an enemy. Self-interest still present for sure but not the be all of existence. Then again this doesn't apply to most people ingame as any monologue that long would be disrupted by lasers halfway into the second sentence. So by your rationale, someone that wants to go to heaven and signs up for a missionary trip to help others in an impoverished region is evil. Likewise, the high school grad that wants to expand their extracurricular activities via community service so they can get into a good college is also practicing evil. Trying to reduce the whole of human behavior to a simple black-and-white analogy is silly, not to mention dangerous. How many heinous acts have been committed in the name of good? IÆm not saying evil doesnÆt exist, itÆs just not everywhere you look.
Long John Silver	Posted - 2011.02.03 16:21:00 - [68] So how is 'evilness' different in Eve compared to RL? I can think of at least three examples: In Eve, an evil player will pod you, but fear not: you will be born again through the miracle of cloning. In RL you have to self-destroy your old pod to be born again and can only do it once. In RL, carebears are in the majority and 'evil' people are trolled by the law. In Eve, 'evil' people are in the majority and carebears get trolled on the forums. In Eve, you can do whatever evil things you like to other characters in the name of 'roleplay'. In RL if you 'roleplay' evil things, the chances are you'll end up in jail or an asylum.
Iosue Black Sky Hipsters	Posted - 2011.02.03 16:32:00 - [69] Originally by: Piugattuk pan handlers and general trash flying about... weren't those the kind of people the jesus was hanging out with? OMG, WWJD in EVE?!?!
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.02.03 16:33:00 - [70] Originally by: DeMichael Crimson Originally by: Karak Terrel I'm not evil, it is just my personal believe that all your stuff belongs to me. Please respect my personal believe, it is my religion, thx. You're welcome to come and try to take my stuff anytime. One bear at a time bro. One bear at a time. -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.02.03 16:34:00 - [71] People are scum. IMO very few people in RL are nice and the majority of those are probably only pretending. EvE is a good representation of RL and people imo. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
DeMichael Crimson Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2011.02.03 16:44:00 - [72] Originally by: Karak Terrel Originally by: DeMichael Crimson Originally by: Karak Terrel I'm not evil, it is just my personal believe that all your stuff belongs to me. Please respect my personal believe, it is my religion, thx. You're welcome to come and try to take my stuff anytime. One bear at a time bro. One bear at a time. You must be flying higher than a kite if you think I'm a little cutesy carebear.
Syn Callibri Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse	Posted - 2011.02.03 17:00:00 - [73] "Good versus Evil"...what a quaint notion. [21EL] Commander Tac-Ops / [21EL] I.S.C.
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.02.03 17:34:00 - [74] Originally by: DeMichael Crimson You must be flying higher than a kite if you think I'm a little cutesy carebear. Thats what spaceship pilots do, they fly pretty high. "Up" is where we are, no Gravity here and even less Gravitas. -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.
Shawnm339	Posted - 2011.02.03 17:46:00 - [75] I'd put money on this being no reflection of society at all in fact I'd say it's the complete opposite.....I'd bet my house on there being lawyers and policeman on here who irl live within the laws of society and enforce them...and I bet they're some of the worst pirates ever....this game gives us a chance to be someone other than what we are or indeed to be magnify who were are 20x.....stop reading so much into it get training and stop wandering off the beaten track then you won't keep losing your stuff.....
Space Jew Sandwitch	Posted - 2011.02.03 17:50:00 - [76] I often find myself imagining blowing cars off the road and podding the driver. But I don't have the technology.
Alyth Nerun	Posted - 2011.02.03 17:51:00 - [77] I'm 14 years old and in RL i gank ppl in the face for their stuff.. Thats how i learned it in eve.
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.03 17:52:00 - [78] I'd certainly like to see more repercussions for neg sec than there currently are. Certainly I feel anyone with negative sec status (ie orange > blinky) should be fair game in high sec. I don't really see the point of only having degrees of bad boy in high sec space. If you are wanted and/or neg sec you should be fair game for anyone anywhere. BTW I am wanted and have neg sec.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.03 18:12:00 - [79] Originally by: Nora Skuld Originally by: Eastman Color It's a game Would you argue that chess is an immoral game as it's "about ethnic cleansing" Just because I play chess does not mean I believe that one "colour" should prevail over another. It's just a game. Same with eve, just because I blow up ships "of the innocent" doesn't mean I'd stab random people in the street. One is reality, the other is a game. If you can't tell the difference you have far greater issues to deal with. Wrong analogy. Chess is a two player game and the one and only goal is to defeat your opponent. EVE is a massive multiplayer game with an open end. There are several ways to play this game, many of which are completely opposed. Some people will let themselves be guided by their morality and principles, others only want to "score points". What I would call "evil players" are those who enjoy collecting tears, among other things. Of course, evil players are not necessarily evil persons IRL, they're probably just jackasses or other kinds of idiots. "It's just a game" is not an excuse. You are judged based on your choices and actions, in RL or in-game. You're not an evil **** if you beat your opponent in chess, but you are if you grief rookies in EVE. Very well said. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Darius Falc Gallente Dark Harlequins	Posted - 2011.02.03 19:11:00 - [80] Edited by: Darius Falc on 03/02/2011 19:14:11 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Nora Skuld Originally by: Eastman Color It's a game Would you argue that chess is an immoral game as it's "about ethnic cleansing" Just because I play chess does not mean I believe that one "colour" should prevail over another. It's just a game. Same with eve, just because I blow up ships "of the innocent" doesn't mean I'd stab random people in the street. One is reality, the other is a game. If you can't tell the difference you have far greater issues to deal with. Wrong analogy. Chess is a two player game and the one and only goal is to defeat your opponent. EVE is a massive multiplayer game with an open end. There are several ways to play this game, many of which are completely opposed. Some people will let themselves be guided by their morality and principles, others only want to "score points". What I would call "evil players" are those who enjoy collecting tears, among other things. Of course, evil players are not necessarily evil persons IRL, they're probably just jackasses or other kinds of idiots. "It's just a game" is not an excuse. You are judged based on your choices and actions, in RL or in-game. You're not an evil ** if you beat your opponent in chess, but you are if you grief rookies in EVE. Very well said. I can't agree with this point of view. In EvE you have many choices, what race should I play, what ships should I fly, what corps should I join etc. but one of the choices you have is what trade you will ply. I happen to be an ebil pirate in game, it's a "part" I choose to play in exactly the same way that an actor might decide to play "Macbeth" in a performance. I'm fairly certain that the actor that played Darth Vader had no aspirations to destroy entire planets, he just thought it was a good part to play (and hey...an actor has to live right ). Every epic play or story has it's baddy. Now take a good long look at EvE; What sort of dull, uneventful universe would it be without the wars and the pirate hunting? Let me give you an example...a couple of weeks ago I blew some guys hauler up and then war decced his corp because he managed to recover some of the huge amount of goods from his hauler with an alt. I deemed he had "stolen" from me! Ignoring the moral irony of this statment it prompted them to join an alliance, hunt down my rather pathetically configured pos in lo sec which they put into reinforced and thereafter ensued a battle of epic proportions when they jumped in a fleet of 57 battleships to try and destroy it. We put up a Stirling defence but in the end we were vastly outnumbered and they got the POS. The point is this. That one act of general ebilness caused over 70 players to have an epic evening of fun. I bear the alliance in question absolutely no malice at all in RL but in EvE I'll hunt them down for the next six months and exact my terrible revenge. EvE needs its pirates, its swindlers, its alliance spies and thieves. They give EvE its edge and turn what would be a mundane carebearing game into a world where there is real anticipation, fear and excitement in travelling its forgotten wastes. Are their evil people that play EvE? Probably....but the vast majority of people I've met in my 5 years as a pirate in EvE have been decent, fun people in RL. On a final note....perhaps I see the world through rose tinted spectacles but the majority of people I've met are good with a lesser or greater tendency towards evil than outright evil. Having been involved in a real world conflict I've seen evil close up and personal and I'm fairly sure I know what it looks like. Some guy flipping cans in Jita doesn't quite cut it. DF. *********************************************
Cathy Drall Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2011.02.03 19:54:00 - [81] And I thought we were just roleplaying ... Playing bad guys doesn't make you bad. Just as actors playing the baddies aren't really bad. Or singing evil songs don't make the artists evil. It's sometimes hard to draw the line when real money for ISK and the (virual) fruit of your (virual) labour are involved, but it's still a game. In my first MMORPG I met some notorious pk'ers (gankers) that were feared and hated in the game and forum. But they appeared to be really funny and nice people and they actually became my best friends. I think it's good to relativate it a bit. "Im not nearly as paranoid as people think I am"
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.02.03 21:15:00 - [82] Originally by: Cathy Drall And I thought we were just roleplaying ... Playing bad guys doesn't make you bad. Just as actors playing the baddies aren't really bad. Or singing evil songs don't make the artists evil. It's sometimes hard to draw the line when real money for ISK and the (virual) fruit of your (virual) labour are involved, but it's still a game. In my first MMORPG I met some notorious pk'ers (gankers) that were feared and hated in the game and forum. But they appeared to be really funny and nice people and they actually became my best friends. I think it's good to relativate it a bit. Nah theres some IRL arsewipes in EvE, quite a lot of them thanks to ethic-less CCP. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Syn Callibri Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse	Posted - 2011.02.03 21:40:00 - [83] Originally by: Infinity Ziona [Nah theres some IRL arsewipes in EvE, quite a lot of them thanks to ethic-less CCP. Ethic-less CCP, until you want your avatar to wear a shiny black bra instead of a shirt. ...just sayin'. [21EL] Commander Tac-Ops / [21EL] I.S.C.
Zyress	Posted - 2011.02.03 21:52:00 - [84] Edited by: Zyress on 03/02/2011 21:57:52 In the end your personal ethics are just that personal and unique to yourself. I myself do not go can flipping, ninja salvaging, suicide ganking, or seek to force pvp on any unwilling victims. Neither do I perpetrate marketing or contract scams, but thats just me. Those activities are just part of the game and the eve universe being a microcosm of the universe at large it takes all types and many of them are slime, beware of all others, its actually one of the more attractive parts in the game and I get a lot of satisfaction of occasionally turning the tables on the slime who frankly usually aren't ready for any flak from their victims.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.02.03 21:54:00 - [85] Originally by: Syn Callibri Originally by: Infinity Ziona [Nah theres some IRL arsewipes in EvE, quite a lot of them thanks to ethic-less CCP. Ethic-less CCP, until you want your avatar to wear a shiny black bra instead of a shirt. ...just sayin'. Ethics and Mastrophobia are not the same thing. On a side note, I wonder if they do exposure to the thing you fear therapy for Mastrophobia. Maybe I should suddenly develop it too and get a hot therapist to 'cure' me. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Darius Falc Gallente Dark Harlequins	Posted - 2011.02.03 22:52:00 - [86] Originally by: Zyress Edited by: Zyress on 03/02/2011 21:57:52 In the end your personal ethics are just that personal and unique to yourself. I myself do not go can flipping, ninja salvaging, suicide ganking, or seek to force pvp on any unwilling victims. Neither do I perpetrate marketing or contract scams, but thats just me. Those activities are just part of the game and the eve universe being a microcosm of the universe at large it takes all types and many of them are slime, beware of all others, its actually one of the more attractive parts in the game and I get a lot of satisfaction of occasionally turning the tables on the slime who frankly usually aren't ready for any flak from their victims. This is exactly the point I was trying to make. You're fuzzying people's personal ethics in RL and the "part" they play in game. They are not at all the same thing. Does the actor that "plays" Ming the Merciless strangle puppies in his spare time? Does Anthony Hopkins try and eat his postman's liver at the slightest provocation? What about the actor that plays Freddie from "Nightmare on Elmstreet", is his road strewn with the torn and mutilated bodies of his next door neighbours? You choose to be a paladin of the world of EvE....good for you! I salute your choice and although I think it's misbegotten I will fight to the death for your right to make that choice. My choice of character is different and I'd appreciate the same courtesy. Also your assumption that pirates aren't ready for any flak from their victims is incorrect; we rarely get any "flak" but when we do get it we cherish it. Most of us would far rather have a good fight that an easy gank. Part of the reason I'm a pirate is the PvP rush I get from a good fight. Do I get that from ganking a hauler? Of course not...but I do make a profit with the hauler . ***********************************************
Medarr Amarr ZeroSec	Posted - 2011.02.03 23:46:00 - [87] I'm not evil... And if you dont belief me I will flay the frakkin skin of your bones and cook your remains in a salt solution before I pour acid down your throat and rip out your spine.. Oh wait.. Nevermind..
Brutolina	Posted - 2011.02.04 01:02:00 - [88] Originally by: Medarr I'm not evil... And if you dont belief me I will flay the frakkin skin of your bones and cook your remains in a salt solution before I pour acid down your throat and rip out your spine.. Oh wait.. Nevermind.. Bones doesn't have skin. Sorry to burst your bubble but I'm just evil I guess.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2011.02.04 01:07:00 - [89] Originally by: Master Gotama So by your rationale, someone that wants to go to heaven and signs up for a missionary trip to help others in an impoverished region is evil. Likewise, the high school grad that wants to expand their extracurricular activities via community service so they can get into a good college is also practicing evil. Trying to reduce the whole of human behavior to a simple black-and-white analogy is silly, not to mention dangerous. How many heinous acts have been committed in the name of good? IÆm not saying evil doesnÆt exist, itÆs just not everywhere you look. Yes and yes, in both those cases you only do something in order to be rewarded yourself not primarily to help other people but so you can get into the heaven or college of your choosing. That to me is lipservice and should I believe in a god I'd imagine those would be the kind of people he'd not reward for them seeking the reward foremost themselves, not doing the good deed for the deed itself and for the betterment of others. I find it interesting how many of the supposed religious people seem to lack a moral compass. This message was brought to you by Danton Marcellus and I disapprove of your new faces. Also Known As
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2011.02.04 02:37:00 - [90] Originally by: Piugattuk One thing about eve seems to be all the evil players about, pan handlers and general trash flying about in the eve universe, when I see this it makes me sort of have less faith in mankind in general, sure they're are evil things i feel like doing but dont because i know them to be wrong If you feel like doing them go ahead. If you feel guilty that will be enough to make you not want to again. I don't really lose faith in humanity for how the average person thinks and sometimes acts these days. For the most part we're policed and regulated in day to day life, and don't even consider why certain things are good or bad, or what evil is, just that some things we can do and some things we can't, and it makes the forbidden things seem more appealing. Without some institution keeping everyone obedient, be it religion or the police, many people are no better than an animal. In short i blame society, a common suspect for sure, but that really is what has weakened and corrupted people. Forcing them to do things instead of letting them understand. Although i still manage to believe humans are essentially better than they appear to be these days, even if it is hard sometimes. Sincerely, Prof. Tarantula, Esq.

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