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Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.02.09 03:21:00 - [31] I did not make my position clear in our private conversations; I preferred a closeout of existing bond and a new creation to an expansion. I would like to withdraw my investment; this should by no means indicate a lack of confidence in OP, simply a lack of risk tolerance on my end in the increased risk presented by a bond expansion.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.09 03:45:00 - [32] Your withdrawal is noted, but it will take a little bit to liquidate some assets
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.09 07:52:00 - [33] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane I did not make my position clear in our private conversations; I preferred a closeout of existing bond and a new creation to an expansion. I would like to withdraw my investment; this should by no means indicate a lack of confidence in OP, simply a lack of risk tolerance on my end in the increased risk presented by a bond expansion. I'm kind of surprised that a new-to-MD character trader was able to walk in here and raise 5 billion isk.
kitenz	Posted - 2011.02.09 08:51:00 - [34] I have to echo a level of being uncomfortable, chatting with Lethal last night I noted would invest on the conditions that the expansion was at max double, and all the original investors were staying in. Given both those conditions are not met then I can't invest in this expansion.. As discussed, I see the benefit of paying out your initial bond and showing you are able to sustain a profit over the term and payout as promised at the end, with that I think a second bond would be quick and easier to raise, and possibly at a cheaper % rate. If your trading nous is strong then you'll continue to make a profit even if a short term opportunity that currently exists is gone.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.02.09 11:14:00 - [35] Just to make clear what my advice to the OP was, for the initial offering I suggested 500mil-1bil (i.e. 100-200% of NAV), an interest rate of c. 10% and an audit as a basic necessity. When consulted on the expansion I suggested raising not much more than another 700mil (taking him to a total of 2bil or 200% of claimed NAV at that point) and, again, emphasised the need for an audit. I have to say, I am very surprised that this expansion filled and am a bit concerned that someone with no MD history and no audit to check his basic claims can raise 5bil so easily. This is not to say that I have any reason to doubt the trustworthiness of the OP but I also have little to go on in judging him to be trustworthy, beyond the fact that he does have a decent grasp of the markets he claims to be working in, and I assume that the same is true of those investing in him.
Arcy Dorei	Posted - 2011.02.09 12:43:00 - [36] I think it's worth pointing out that this guy convoed several people privately, including myself (despite knowing I am running a fairly new IPO and that investing in someone else would make no sense) asking about investing. I figure it should be up here for transparency sake, it's a warning sign though not a clear 'flag' as it were.
Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2011.02.09 13:01:00 - [37] Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 09/02/2011 13:03:18 Originally by: Kalrand I'm kind of surprised that a new-to-MD character trader was able to walk in here and raise 5 billion isk. He did raise the expansion by private convo'ing people from MD prior to setting up his expansion post in here, telling them current investors kinda agreed to the expansion plan...
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.09 13:15:00 - [38] Originally by: Lederstrumpf Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 09/02/2011 13:03:18 Originally by: Kalrand I'm kind of surprised that a new-to-MD character trader was able to walk in here and raise 5 billion isk. He did raise the expansion by private convo'ing people from MD prior to setting up his expansion post in here, telling them current investors kinda agreed to the expansion plan... Let me correct you and Arcy there, I did raise the expansion by private as proved by the lack of responses here bidding on the expansion, but my main intention when I convod people was to gauge if anyone would even be interested in an expansion and if they had any feedback, not once did I say, "Hey will you invest in me?" Also regarding the current investors agreeing to the plan, I was under the assumption that Deth did agree. My private conversations with Deth led me to believe that he was unwilling to invest more, not that he was against the plan entirely. I apologize for that as that was a lack of communication between me and Deth. Proof for my other investors is in the numbers where they reinvested. For further clarification the new expanded bonds will still end on March 6th, 2011 gathering the same interest (11% on end date) as the original investments. My profits are up to 18% 3.5 days in, that's enough for me to go to an expansion. Regarding advice from Raw, he is correct he advised me to only expand a little bit and get an audit done. I expanded more because that was what was offered to me in private conversations, and I decided now is not the time for an audit due to time constraints and the bond already being launched. I am as surprised as you are gathering this much public funds, but what was offered to me was offered to me, if I know I can make money with it, why would I turn it down?
Arcy Dorei	Posted - 2011.02.09 13:21:00 - [39] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Originally by: Lederstrumpf Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 09/02/2011 13:03:18 Originally by: Kalrand I'm kind of surprised that a new-to-MD character trader was able to walk in here and raise 5 billion isk. He did raise the expansion by private convo'ing people from MD prior to setting up his expansion post in here, telling them current investors kinda agreed to the expansion plan... Let me correct you and Arcy there, I did raise the expansion by private as proved by the lack of responses here bidding on the expansion, but my main intention when I convod people was to gauge if anyone would even be interested in an expansion and if they had any feedback, not once did I say, "Hey will you invest in me?" Also regarding the current investors agreeing to the plan, I was under the assumption that Deth did agree. My private conversations with Deth led me to believe that he was unwilling to invest more, not that he was against the plan entirely. I apologize for that as that was a lack of communication between me and Deth. Proof for my other investors is in the numbers where they reinvested. For further clarification the new expanded bonds will still end on March 6th, 2011 gathering the same interest (11% on end date) as the original investments. My profits are up to 18% 3.5 days in, that's enough for me to go to an expansion. Regarding advice from Raw, he is correct he advised me to only expand a little bit and get an audit done. I expanded more because that was what was offered to me in private conversations, and I decided now is not the time for an audit due to time constraints and the bond already being launched. I am as surprised as you are gathering this much public funds, but what was offered to me was offered to me, if I know I can make money with it, why would I turn it down? Let me clarify .. there's no need to 'correct' me, I did not say you asked me for money, I said you asked about investing. Also make it clearer - I am not saying this is some 'flag' and that you are a scammer! If you are offered the isk and can make isk with it then go ahead take it, there's no need to turn investment down on some weird "don't want to look bad" principle - returning investments with interest will speak for itself in the end. I just posted about you convoing me to make it very transparent to people that may not have known you were doing this, whether your intent was to eventually ask me for money in private or just simply wondering whether people thought the expansion was a good idea we never quite got to that bit as I quickly said no thank you. The problem is just that it is a VERY common tactic from scammers who are trying a "smash and grab" for every last bit of isk they can get .. and it's only afterwards, when the guy has run off with the isk, that people realised 12 people put in "the last 1billion isk" .. Good luck with your bond.
flakeys DRAMA Inc Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.02.09 16:12:00 - [40] We are doing convo conga?Great , OP convoed me with the same question as RAW.I pointed out that i found it too soon to do an expansion allready BUT if he wanted an expansion that he should first ask the current investors how they felt since this would raise the scam potential. I did not talk with the OP about the amount he wanted to raise the offer but looking at the 5B total now i am as most surprised.Not so surprised he took the 5B he could get as an investment but that he could get it. Immeditaly again shows why i usually hammer on talking on the forums about investments and not doing it ingame when i see a 'investment X convo me ingame for details if interested'.It's not the OP that looks foolish here to me. Anyway with how this all is turning out lethal entrepeneur i hope that you still get the funds running you need if you are being honest but i would prefer no more convoes to me from here on.My advice take a step back and go on with the investment as it was and leave the expansion for in a month or so , wich should also give you time to find an auditor for that expansion. Being to eager to get investments/isk usually only backfires mate.
Lando Antilles	Posted - 2011.02.09 17:03:00 - [41] My convo w/ the OP was similar to flakeys, as was most of my advice. I agree that this seems a little too much too fast, and that honest discussions with investors and disclosures to MD are vital during such a bond modification. The only thing that really perplexes me in all this, is why did he ask me for advice? I'm almost as much of a MD noob as the OP. Originally by: flakeys We are doing convo conga?Great , OP convoed me with the same question as RAW.I pointed out that i found it too soon to do an expansion allready BUT if he wanted an expansion that he should first ask the current investors how they felt since this would raise the scam potential. I did not talk with the OP about the amount he wanted to raise the offer but looking at the 5B total now i am as most surprised.Not so surprised he took the 5B he could get as an investment but that he could get it. Immeditaly again shows why i usually hammer on talking on the forums about investments and not doing it ingame when i see a 'investment X convo me ingame for details if interested'.It's not the OP that looks foolish here to me. Anyway with how this all is turning out lethal entrepeneur i hope that you still get the funds running you need if you are being honest but i would prefer no more convoes to me from here on.My advice take a step back and go on with the investment as it was and leave the expansion for in a month or so , wich should also give you time to find an auditor for that expansion. Being to eager to get investments/isk usually only backfires mate.
flakeys DRAMA Inc Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.02.09 17:36:00 - [42] Edited by: flakeys on 09/02/2011 17:36:22 Originally by: Lando Antilles The only thing that really perplexes me in all this, is why did he ask me for advice? I'm almost as much of a MD noob as the OP. I'm a low-educated chef in a restaurant , wtf do i know about bonds and investments BTW OP not convoing me does not mean i don't want to talk with you eh , BIG difference there so don't see it as something personal and hook me up in signature chat any time for small talk or questions.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.09 17:44:00 - [43] I wrote you in game as well Flakeys, so you may want to check eve-gate, not sure why you dont want me to convo you all of the sudden. My main question for the forums is did I do something wrong here?
reservent	Posted - 2011.02.09 18:16:00 - [44] Edited by: reservent on 09/02/2011 18:16:09 I was convoed in game by Lethal and asked very nicely if I would mind the expansion as an existing investor. Whilst this might sound immensely naive I'm willing to go a way on trust and was happy to agree, including adding a further 500m to double my investment, I would have been happy to go up 1b on the original bond anyhow. If (and I do not expect this for Lethal) there is a default on this bond I'm out 1B which sucks but not the end of the world. When this one pays out I'll be a happy bloke.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.02.09 18:23:00 - [45] Edited by: RAW23 on 09/02/2011 18:26:36 Edited by: RAW23 on 09/02/2011 18:25:17 Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur I wrote you in game as well Flakeys, so you may want to check eve-gate, not sure why you dont want me to convo you all of the sudden. My main question for the forums is did I do something wrong here? Not really but there are a number of reasons that this offering might make people feel a bit uncomfortable. First off, it is completely understandable that you accepted the offers of investments that you received. However, there is an inherent problem with gathering investments off the forums and that is that it is very easy to scam people by doing this. You could, for instance, have got 12 different people to invest 2 bil each, telling each one that you were only trying to raise an extra 2bil. So, for future reference, many investors (by which I mean at least me ) will feel MUCH more comfortable with the key discussions taking place on the forum where they will be subject to public scrutiny in a way that private convos won't be. Once things are laid out on the forum then, by all means, advertise privately but the relevant data should be in the public domain first so that everyone knows what the score is and there are no confusions (as, for example, with Deth). It's also a good idea to not actually ask people to send you the isk until the investment is publicly filled. That way investors will know there is something fishy if you ask someone not on the list to send money. The second issue is connected to consulting with people. Once you mention peoples' names in connection with your plans, even if you then add that they in no way endorse your offer, those people are going to feel as if they have been connected to it in a way that they may not feel comfortable with. This is especially the case if you canvas for advice and state that you canvassed for advice but then chose not to follow much of it (again, this is understandable if you got offered what you wanted but will still seem problematic to those whose names are brought up). Thirdly, there are wider community issues to be considered. Whilst it is fully understandable that you would accept isk that is offered to you it is worth considering what type of offering you are encouraging investors to put money into. With no audit, no history and an expansion only two days after the initial offer it is arguably not very sensible to invest in someone that is not personally known to you. By encouraging people to take extremely high risk gambles you are, again arguably, encouraging lower quality offerings on MD. A question worth asking yourself is how an investor could distinguish your offering from a scam offering by someone who had never even traded? If an investor has no grounds to make such a determination, even if you are honest, then you are encouraging people to invest in offers that look identical to yours and a large number of such offers will be scams. This is why I mentioned to you the importance of audits as raising the bar for scammers. Whilst, in the short term, it might seem to be in your own best interests to get investments as easily as possible, in the long term if life is made easier for scammers and a lot of investment isk is lost to investments that look much like yours then you will find the pool of investors diminished in the future. So, if you intend to carry on offering bonds in the future it could be claimed that it is in your own best interests to take the steps that make life harder for scammers so as to encourage this as a norm and deter scammers from getting a larger piece of the investment pie.
flakeys DRAMA Inc Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.02.09 19:16:00 - [46] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur I wrote you in game as well Flakeys, so you may want to check eve-gate, not sure why you dont want me to convo you all of the sudden. My main question for the forums is did I do something wrong here? I understand why this would seem odd/irrational for you wich is why i said don't take it personally and for other questions besides your bond/ipo it is still no problem to convo me. Those that have hanged around long enough in MD should know verry well why i specifically am asking not to convo about this ipo/bond any more.I have let myself dig into such a hole a long time ago when i was new to MD and i am trying to avoid it hapening again.
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.09 19:46:00 - [47] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur My main question for the forums is did I do something wrong here? Not yet. Ask again in a couple of weeks. Or just save us some time and out yourself. The scam is strong in this one.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.09 20:26:00 - [48] Originally by: AkJon Ferguson Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur My main question for the forums is did I do something wrong here? Not yet. Ask again in a couple of weeks. Or just save us some time and out yourself. The scam is strong in this one. Can you please avoid posting things such as this that are both nonconstructive and have no basis. If you have any questions for me feel free to ask. The only thing I can do at the moment is refute your assumption that I am a scammer, obviously this solves nothing at this point. But please feel free to ask constructive questions regarding this situation.
Edwin Rothbard Interstellar Arbitrage	Posted - 2011.02.10 00:21:00 - [49] Let's review: 1) OP asks for 1.3b isk without a track record, audit, or collateral 2) 21 hours 49 minutes later bond is filled 3) 59 hours 18 minutes later OP asks for an addition 3.7b isk 4) 18 hours 5 minutes later 4.5b of the 5.0b is filled (OP has stated NAV of approx. 700m) 5) profit? The red flag to me is your unwillingness to see the original deal through before embarking on a new one.* You will miss deals over the next 27 days without the additional 3.7b isk. There were lots of good deals last month before you started raising money. There will be plenty more good deals next month when you have more money. IMO you should have stuck to your original plan for this month. *Yes Edwin is paranoid about most things.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 00:43:00 - [50] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Can you please avoid posting things such as this that are both nonconstructive and have no basis. If you have any questions for me feel free to ask. The only thing I can do at the moment is refute your assumption that I am a scammer, obviously this solves nothing at this point. But please feel free to ask constructive questions regarding this situation. A better response would have been something along the lines of "I hope you won't get too mad when I quote this post when I announce repayment in a month". Doing the standard "GET OUT OF MY THREAD YOU TROLL" garbage only gets people angry.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 00:47:00 - [51] Originally by: Edwin Rothbard Let's review: 1) OP asks for 1.3b isk without a track record, audit, or collateral 2) 21 hours 49 minutes later bond is filled 3) 59 hours 18 minutes later OP asks for an addition 3.7b isk 4) 18 hours 5 minutes later 4.5b of the 5.0b is filled (OP has stated NAV of approx. 700m) 5) profit? The red flag to me is your unwillingness to see the original deal through before embarking on a new one.* You will miss deals over the next 27 days without the additional 3.7b isk. There were lots of good deals last month before you started raising money. There will be plenty more good deals next month when you have more money. IMO you should have stuck to your original plan for this month. Yes Edwin is paranoid about most things. I offered the investors a way out. Consider this a new deal with the investors possibility to roll over into it. I was offered the money... I wasnt going to turn it down. Originally by:* Kalrand Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Can you please avoid posting things such as this that are both nonconstructive and have no basis. If you have any questions for me feel free to ask. The only thing I can do at the moment is refute your assumption that I am a scammer, obviously this solves nothing at this point. But please feel free to ask constructive questions regarding this situation. A better response would have been something along the lines of "I hope you won't get too mad when I quote this post when I announce repayment in a month". Doing the standard "GET OUT OF MY THREAD YOU TROLL" garbage only gets people angry. I dont mind him in my thread. If he feels uncomfortable about my actions, I respect his opinion. If he has questions I will answer them, but he statement was unnecessary and nonconstructive.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 00:51:00 - [52] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur If he has questions I will answer them, but he statement was unnecessary and nonconstructive. Market Discussion investment threads often live or die based on how the entrepreneur treats their critics.
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2011.02.10 00:59:00 - [53] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur If he has questions I will answer them, but he statement was unnecessary and nonconstructive. Market Discussion investment threads often live or die based on how the entrepreneur treats their critics. Very true. Whether it's your intention or not what it LOOKS like to many people that read MD threads is you trying to shut down criticism because it is "unfounded" well guess what ALL accusations of scammer are unfounded until the actual scam occurs. By then it is TOO LATE, which is why people call it out before hand.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 01:03:00 - [54] Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 10/02/2011 01:04:43 Originally by: Caldariftw123 Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur If he has questions I will answer them, but he statement was unnecessary and nonconstructive. Market Discussion investment threads often live or die based on how the entrepreneur treats their critics. Very true. Whether it's your intention or not what it LOOKS like to many people that read MD threads is you trying to shut down criticism because it is "unfounded" well guess what ALL accusations of scammer are unfounded until the actual scam occurs. By then it is TOO LATE, which is why people call it out before hand. Sorry if it seemed that way, as it was not my intention. Do either of you have any questions that I can address?
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 01:27:00 - [55] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Sorry if it seemed that way, as it was not my intention. Do either of you have any questions that I can address? After my first few questions, I've largely toned down my normal criticism, since I'm running a concurrent bond offering and don't want it to appear that I'm criticizing you to drive people over to my thread. Which started recently.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 01:36:00 - [56] Is it necessary to attempt to hijack my bond?
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 02:24:00 - [57] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Is it necessary to attempt to hijack my bond? Humor is not your strong suit, is it?
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 11:03:00 - [58] Investor list updated at Post 30. Confirming Paxol has now invested 10 blocks (1000m)
Paxol Amarr Athene Institute V.A.S.T.	Posted - 2011.02.10 11:33:00 - [59] Confirming i am investing 1BN after speaking with Lethal
Dezolf Minmatar DAX Action Stance	Posted - 2011.02.10 12:55:00 - [60] Edited by: Dezolf on 10/02/2011 12:56:45 Popping in to say that the OP has also contacted me ingame (by convo), asking if I was interested in investing in this bond (So, technically, it wasn't a "plz invest"-convo... ). ...Even though I havn't had any prior contact with OP, nor expressed any interest in this bond (to be honest, I hadn't even seen this thread before today), but I guess that's the standard approach? Edit: So I'll announce this here: I'm like Hollywood; You don't call me, I call you.

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