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Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.05 17:09:00 - [1] Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 05/02/2011 17:21:42 Bond 1 Market Discussion, This will be my first bond, so it will be the most crucial one. I have researched how I should go about this and have consulted flakeys and Kara Roideater about my options. They have been a great help getting me going in the market world so I thought I would mention them here How much do you want? What do I get in return? I am requesting 1.3b at a 11% rate. Investments will be set up in 13 blocks of 100m each. The blocks will be returned along with interest (111m per block) exactly one month after I confirm receipt of all fund from my investors. How will you make money for us... I mean yourself? I plan to station trade in one of the main hubs. Buy low, sell high. Are you experienced at this? I have been trading for the past month or two. I would say I am fairly competent in doing this and I am confident in my ability to complete this bond. Well what do you believe the risks are in this and how are you going to address them? Transportation There is going to be no transportation of assets throughout this bond, any transportation done will be me in a shuttle if I decide to move hubs, which I highly doubt will occur. Failure to Capitalize Another risk is if I start to lose money. This in no way will affect the investor's money or return, which I will explain below. I currently have a NAV of 700m. With this bond I will then have 2b ISK. If at any time I drop below 1.7b ISK total worth, I will immediately end the bond and pay out the interest at that point to avoid any further mistakes and to prevent failure of the bond. The above is a worst case scenario which I cannot foresee ever occurring as I will attempt to prevent any loss by diversifying my investments and using common sense. To date I have yet to lose any money from a trade. Collateral Also I will not be securing this loan with any collateral as I have no collateral to secure this with. Conclusion I am requesting 1.3b ISK in blocks of 100m with a total return of 11% (1.443b or 111m per block) exactly one month after I confirm receipt. I plan to profit purely by station trading. This bond will not be secured, but I assure the investors I would end the bond if I suspected that I was losing money. Please feel free to ask any questions. EDIT: Changed layout, symbols didnt look correct
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.05 17:35:00 - [2] Would you please post a list of your main character and any alts you use?
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.05 17:36:00 - [3] Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 05/02/2011 17:44:33 I just updated the OP as you said that. I should note that I bought this character a few weeks ago with my alt Tergum Vigilo for roughly 1b ISK. Better to mention it here than people think I am hiding it. Linkage I have a manufacturing alt as well, although I havent been using him really. Id prefer not to let his name out incase I am transporting things with him in the future. EDIT: Added link and mentioned manufacturing alt.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.05 17:47:00 - [4] How would you describe your relationship with Controlled Chaos?
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.05 17:50:00 - [5] Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 05/02/2011 17:50:22 Originally by: Kalrand How would you describe your relationship with Controlled Chaos? I have no relationship with said alliance.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.05 17:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 05/02/2011 17:50:22 Originally by: Kalrand How would you describe your relationship with Controlled Chaos? I have no relationship with said alliance. How would you describe your relationship with Archangel17?
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.05 18:00:00 - [7] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 05/02/2011 17:50:22 Originally by: Kalrand How would you describe your relationship with Controlled Chaos? I have no relationship with said alliance. How would you describe your relationship with Archangel17? I have no relationship with him. I assume your questions are in reference to this where it lists Archangel17 as an associate of mine. I was invited to fly in the system Decon with a real life friend of mine (not Archangel) and decided low-sec wasnt for me. I have no relationship with him and only participated in a fleet or 2 with him last month.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.05 18:06:00 - [8] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 05/02/2011 17:50:22 Originally by: Kalrand How would you describe your relationship with Controlled Chaos? I have no relationship with said alliance. How would you describe your relationship with Archangel17? I have no relationship with him. I assume your questions are in reference to this where it lists Archangel17 as an associate of mine. I was invited to fly in the system Decon with a real life friend of mine (not Archangel) and decided low-sec wasnt for me. I have no relationship with him and only participated in a fleet or 2 with him last month. Killboards, yes, that particular link, no. What did you do to earn your first 1.7b isk?
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.05 18:18:00 - [9] Originally by: Kalrand Killboards, yes, that particular link, no. What did you do to earn your first 1.7b isk? I earned about 1.1ish billion before I bought this character through several means. I made (if I recall correctly) 500m selling a Wormhole location back to a corporation after (I assume) they lost it. I made probably (rough estimates) ~100-200m flying in Decon, 100m trading, and the rest was from a second plex after I bought a GTC (one to start up this account, one for money). I then started trading with what money I had left on this character and built this up to 700m.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.02.05 18:24:00 - [10] Quote: This will be my first bond, so it will be the most crucial one. I have researched how I should go about this and have consulted flakeys and Kara Roideater about my options Are you sure that that both Flakeys and Kara aka RAW23 told you just what you typed in your prospectus? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.05 18:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: This will be my first bond, so it will be the most crucial one. I have researched how I should go about this and have consulted flakeys and Kara Roideater about my options Are you sure that that both Flakeys and Kara aka RAW23 told you just what you typed in your prospectus? Neither of them told me anything directly to post. In the beginning I consulted Kara (RAW) about what markets I was trading in etc. I have consulted both recently about the bonds, what interest rates would be appropriate and any friendly advice. I did not mean to imply that they endorsed my offering in any way.
flakeys DRAMA Inc Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.02.05 19:29:00 - [12] Unfort a bit too busy atm to dig my head into it but just wanted to make a small comment.I have been approached as said above on how to set up a bond on wich i pointed towards other bonds/ipo's on Md to use as basic and pointed out the appropriate interest rate with it. Nothing more and nothing less besides giving the advice to stay polite even if the heat is on as i was too busy going over the whole thing before and still am. That's my involvement so no i am not backing this up nor rejecting it as a scam , no i am not sure if i'll invest and no you can't have my cookie. I'll try to have a look at it once i got time but unfort after the kids now the wife is time consuming.
Narusegawa Naru Gallente Unicorn Faction	Posted - 2011.02.05 20:32:00 - [13] After a few evemails, I've decided to trust you with 100m towards your bond. Good luck!
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.05 21:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Narusegawa Naru After a few evemails, I've decided to trust you with 100m towards your bond. Good luck! Thanks! Updated the OP with the investor list.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.02.05 22:48:00 - [15] I'll have to double-check tonight, but assuming I've got the liquid I think I do I'd like to fill the remainder of your bond.
reservent	Posted - 2011.02.05 23:31:00 - [16] If Dethmourne decides not to invest or if there is any left over I'll cover 500m.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.06 00:02:00 - [17] Alright I updated the investor list and added a reserved investor list should one of the other investors retract their offer. I should note I already received ISK from Naru, but the bond does not launch until it is filled completely.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.06 00:20:00 - [18] Originally by: Narusegawa Naru After a few evemails, I've decided to trust you with 100m towards your bond. Good luck! Wow. This is your first post since 2008. Welcome back.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.06 00:23:00 - [19] Originally by: reservent If Dethmourne decides not to invest or if there is any left over I'll cover 500m. And your first one ever. Welcome to MD.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.06 00:33:00 - [20] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Narusegawa Naru After a few evemails, I've decided to trust you with 100m towards your bond. Good luck! Wow. This is your first post since 2008. Welcome back. Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: reservent If Dethmourne decides not to invest or if there is any left over I'll cover 500m. And your first one ever. Welcome to MD. Guess I just have the magic touch?
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2011.02.06 01:06:00 - [21] I'm surprised this picked up an investment.
Narusegawa Naru Gallente Unicorn Faction	Posted - 2011.02.06 01:39:00 - [22] Been away for a while, and only just come back. Figuring what to do with some money. I think the last bond I gave out was to the ISS IPO. Happy to give a new person a break, give them a chance to earn trust of others.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.02.06 02:51:00 - [23] Originally by: Liberty Eternal I'm surprised this picked up an investment. I'm not investing so much as gambling; I can gamble from work on MD but not on EOH.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.06 02:55:00 - [24] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Originally by: Liberty Eternal I'm surprised this picked up an investment. I'm not investing so much as gambling; I can gamble from work on MD but not on EOH. Maybe I should have just opened a Casino instead of this bond All jokes aside, just waiting on verification from Deth to see if we can get the bond launched tonight.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.02.06 03:05:00 - [25] Tell you what, since you've got somebody else asking to get in on the action for 500m, let me cut mine by 500m and we'll split the fun Got another bil magically added to my wallet today, not really sure what's going on so I gotta find out if somebody's cashing out on something or what when I get home, but definitely can cover the bil if your 500m investor doesn't want in after all.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.06 03:09:00 - [26] Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 06/02/2011 03:15:48 Alright, Deth is now investing 7 blocks and reservant is investing 5 blocks. Awaiting isk from investors. EDIT: Misread Deths post.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.02.06 06:17:00 - [27] 700m sent.
reservent	Posted - 2011.02.06 09:10:00 - [28] 500m isk sent. Thanks Dethmourne Been looking for a first time bond that I got a good feeling about for a few months now for my first investment.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.06 14:40:00 - [29] Confirming ISK received. The bond has launched and will end on March 6th, 2011.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.09 01:58:00 - [30] Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 09/02/2011 02:04:20 Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 09/02/2011 02:00:23 Update 2 Days in: One of my many markets has been growing much faster than I anticipated and I have already gathered 15% in profits in regards to the original investment, already exceeding the necessary funds to fulfill the interest on this bond. Due to this I have consulted my original investors and I have decided that expanding my original bond for another 3.7 billion. I would like to take advantage of this market before anyone else does as well. While I understand that I should have asked for a higher amount in the beginning rather than expanding I did not anticipate such growth and since I am gathering profits of this magnitude, I doubt anyone else did as well. I understand that an expansion of this size may make the investors uncomfortable (although there was no indication of the when I had consulted them) so I am offering to pay them out now following the below equation: 1.11x(n/28) + x where x is the original investment and n is the amount of days I have been holding their money, which at this point is 3. Please contact me in-game if you wish to withdraw. I have also decided that I am now offering any investor in this bond the opportunity to rollover on March 6th, retaining the same interest with the possibility for increased investment. This should allow for trust to be built between me and my investors to ensure a successful and stable future. Original Investor List (Available for withdrawal until Feb 10th) reservent - 5 blocks - 500m Narusegawa Naru - 1 block - 100m Dethmourne Silvermane - 7 blocks - 700m Updated Investor List reservent - 10 blocks -1000m Narusegawa Naru - 3 blocks - 300m Dethmourne Silvermane - 7 blocks - 700m Von Bonez - 18 blocks - 1800m Hrabandur2 - 5 blocks - 500m Total: 4.3 billion (700m free) I have received all ISK from the above parties. Potential Investor List kitenz - 2 blocks - 200m Feel free to ask any questions below.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.02.09 03:21:00 - [31] I did not make my position clear in our private conversations; I preferred a closeout of existing bond and a new creation to an expansion. I would like to withdraw my investment; this should by no means indicate a lack of confidence in OP, simply a lack of risk tolerance on my end in the increased risk presented by a bond expansion.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.09 03:45:00 - [32] Your withdrawal is noted, but it will take a little bit to liquidate some assets
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.09 07:52:00 - [33] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane I did not make my position clear in our private conversations; I preferred a closeout of existing bond and a new creation to an expansion. I would like to withdraw my investment; this should by no means indicate a lack of confidence in OP, simply a lack of risk tolerance on my end in the increased risk presented by a bond expansion. I'm kind of surprised that a new-to-MD character trader was able to walk in here and raise 5 billion isk.
kitenz	Posted - 2011.02.09 08:51:00 - [34] I have to echo a level of being uncomfortable, chatting with Lethal last night I noted would invest on the conditions that the expansion was at max double, and all the original investors were staying in. Given both those conditions are not met then I can't invest in this expansion.. As discussed, I see the benefit of paying out your initial bond and showing you are able to sustain a profit over the term and payout as promised at the end, with that I think a second bond would be quick and easier to raise, and possibly at a cheaper % rate. If your trading nous is strong then you'll continue to make a profit even if a short term opportunity that currently exists is gone.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.02.09 11:14:00 - [35] Just to make clear what my advice to the OP was, for the initial offering I suggested 500mil-1bil (i.e. 100-200% of NAV), an interest rate of c. 10% and an audit as a basic necessity. When consulted on the expansion I suggested raising not much more than another 700mil (taking him to a total of 2bil or 200% of claimed NAV at that point) and, again, emphasised the need for an audit. I have to say, I am very surprised that this expansion filled and am a bit concerned that someone with no MD history and no audit to check his basic claims can raise 5bil so easily. This is not to say that I have any reason to doubt the trustworthiness of the OP but I also have little to go on in judging him to be trustworthy, beyond the fact that he does have a decent grasp of the markets he claims to be working in, and I assume that the same is true of those investing in him.
Arcy Dorei	Posted - 2011.02.09 12:43:00 - [36] I think it's worth pointing out that this guy convoed several people privately, including myself (despite knowing I am running a fairly new IPO and that investing in someone else would make no sense) asking about investing. I figure it should be up here for transparency sake, it's a warning sign though not a clear 'flag' as it were.
Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2011.02.09 13:01:00 - [37] Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 09/02/2011 13:03:18 Originally by: Kalrand I'm kind of surprised that a new-to-MD character trader was able to walk in here and raise 5 billion isk. He did raise the expansion by private convo'ing people from MD prior to setting up his expansion post in here, telling them current investors kinda agreed to the expansion plan...
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.09 13:15:00 - [38] Originally by: Lederstrumpf Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 09/02/2011 13:03:18 Originally by: Kalrand I'm kind of surprised that a new-to-MD character trader was able to walk in here and raise 5 billion isk. He did raise the expansion by private convo'ing people from MD prior to setting up his expansion post in here, telling them current investors kinda agreed to the expansion plan... Let me correct you and Arcy there, I did raise the expansion by private as proved by the lack of responses here bidding on the expansion, but my main intention when I convod people was to gauge if anyone would even be interested in an expansion and if they had any feedback, not once did I say, "Hey will you invest in me?" Also regarding the current investors agreeing to the plan, I was under the assumption that Deth did agree. My private conversations with Deth led me to believe that he was unwilling to invest more, not that he was against the plan entirely. I apologize for that as that was a lack of communication between me and Deth. Proof for my other investors is in the numbers where they reinvested. For further clarification the new expanded bonds will still end on March 6th, 2011 gathering the same interest (11% on end date) as the original investments. My profits are up to 18% 3.5 days in, that's enough for me to go to an expansion. Regarding advice from Raw, he is correct he advised me to only expand a little bit and get an audit done. I expanded more because that was what was offered to me in private conversations, and I decided now is not the time for an audit due to time constraints and the bond already being launched. I am as surprised as you are gathering this much public funds, but what was offered to me was offered to me, if I know I can make money with it, why would I turn it down?
Arcy Dorei	Posted - 2011.02.09 13:21:00 - [39] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Originally by: Lederstrumpf Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 09/02/2011 13:03:18 Originally by: Kalrand I'm kind of surprised that a new-to-MD character trader was able to walk in here and raise 5 billion isk. He did raise the expansion by private convo'ing people from MD prior to setting up his expansion post in here, telling them current investors kinda agreed to the expansion plan... Let me correct you and Arcy there, I did raise the expansion by private as proved by the lack of responses here bidding on the expansion, but my main intention when I convod people was to gauge if anyone would even be interested in an expansion and if they had any feedback, not once did I say, "Hey will you invest in me?" Also regarding the current investors agreeing to the plan, I was under the assumption that Deth did agree. My private conversations with Deth led me to believe that he was unwilling to invest more, not that he was against the plan entirely. I apologize for that as that was a lack of communication between me and Deth. Proof for my other investors is in the numbers where they reinvested. For further clarification the new expanded bonds will still end on March 6th, 2011 gathering the same interest (11% on end date) as the original investments. My profits are up to 18% 3.5 days in, that's enough for me to go to an expansion. Regarding advice from Raw, he is correct he advised me to only expand a little bit and get an audit done. I expanded more because that was what was offered to me in private conversations, and I decided now is not the time for an audit due to time constraints and the bond already being launched. I am as surprised as you are gathering this much public funds, but what was offered to me was offered to me, if I know I can make money with it, why would I turn it down? Let me clarify .. there's no need to 'correct' me, I did not say you asked me for money, I said you asked about investing. Also make it clearer - I am not saying this is some 'flag' and that you are a scammer! If you are offered the isk and can make isk with it then go ahead take it, there's no need to turn investment down on some weird "don't want to look bad" principle - returning investments with interest will speak for itself in the end. I just posted about you convoing me to make it very transparent to people that may not have known you were doing this, whether your intent was to eventually ask me for money in private or just simply wondering whether people thought the expansion was a good idea we never quite got to that bit as I quickly said no thank you. The problem is just that it is a VERY common tactic from scammers who are trying a "smash and grab" for every last bit of isk they can get .. and it's only afterwards, when the guy has run off with the isk, that people realised 12 people put in "the last 1billion isk" .. Good luck with your bond.
flakeys DRAMA Inc Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.02.09 16:12:00 - [40] We are doing convo conga?Great , OP convoed me with the same question as RAW.I pointed out that i found it too soon to do an expansion allready BUT if he wanted an expansion that he should first ask the current investors how they felt since this would raise the scam potential. I did not talk with the OP about the amount he wanted to raise the offer but looking at the 5B total now i am as most surprised.Not so surprised he took the 5B he could get as an investment but that he could get it. Immeditaly again shows why i usually hammer on talking on the forums about investments and not doing it ingame when i see a 'investment X convo me ingame for details if interested'.It's not the OP that looks foolish here to me. Anyway with how this all is turning out lethal entrepeneur i hope that you still get the funds running you need if you are being honest but i would prefer no more convoes to me from here on.My advice take a step back and go on with the investment as it was and leave the expansion for in a month or so , wich should also give you time to find an auditor for that expansion. Being to eager to get investments/isk usually only backfires mate.
Lando Antilles	Posted - 2011.02.09 17:03:00 - [41] My convo w/ the OP was similar to flakeys, as was most of my advice. I agree that this seems a little too much too fast, and that honest discussions with investors and disclosures to MD are vital during such a bond modification. The only thing that really perplexes me in all this, is why did he ask me for advice? I'm almost as much of a MD noob as the OP. Originally by: flakeys We are doing convo conga?Great , OP convoed me with the same question as RAW.I pointed out that i found it too soon to do an expansion allready BUT if he wanted an expansion that he should first ask the current investors how they felt since this would raise the scam potential. I did not talk with the OP about the amount he wanted to raise the offer but looking at the 5B total now i am as most surprised.Not so surprised he took the 5B he could get as an investment but that he could get it. Immeditaly again shows why i usually hammer on talking on the forums about investments and not doing it ingame when i see a 'investment X convo me ingame for details if interested'.It's not the OP that looks foolish here to me. Anyway with how this all is turning out lethal entrepeneur i hope that you still get the funds running you need if you are being honest but i would prefer no more convoes to me from here on.My advice take a step back and go on with the investment as it was and leave the expansion for in a month or so , wich should also give you time to find an auditor for that expansion. Being to eager to get investments/isk usually only backfires mate.
flakeys DRAMA Inc Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.02.09 17:36:00 - [42] Edited by: flakeys on 09/02/2011 17:36:22 Originally by: Lando Antilles The only thing that really perplexes me in all this, is why did he ask me for advice? I'm almost as much of a MD noob as the OP. I'm a low-educated chef in a restaurant , wtf do i know about bonds and investments BTW OP not convoing me does not mean i don't want to talk with you eh , BIG difference there so don't see it as something personal and hook me up in signature chat any time for small talk or questions.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.09 17:44:00 - [43] I wrote you in game as well Flakeys, so you may want to check eve-gate, not sure why you dont want me to convo you all of the sudden. My main question for the forums is did I do something wrong here?
reservent	Posted - 2011.02.09 18:16:00 - [44] Edited by: reservent on 09/02/2011 18:16:09 I was convoed in game by Lethal and asked very nicely if I would mind the expansion as an existing investor. Whilst this might sound immensely naive I'm willing to go a way on trust and was happy to agree, including adding a further 500m to double my investment, I would have been happy to go up 1b on the original bond anyhow. If (and I do not expect this for Lethal) there is a default on this bond I'm out 1B which sucks but not the end of the world. When this one pays out I'll be a happy bloke.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.02.09 18:23:00 - [45] Edited by: RAW23 on 09/02/2011 18:26:36 Edited by: RAW23 on 09/02/2011 18:25:17 Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur I wrote you in game as well Flakeys, so you may want to check eve-gate, not sure why you dont want me to convo you all of the sudden. My main question for the forums is did I do something wrong here? Not really but there are a number of reasons that this offering might make people feel a bit uncomfortable. First off, it is completely understandable that you accepted the offers of investments that you received. However, there is an inherent problem with gathering investments off the forums and that is that it is very easy to scam people by doing this. You could, for instance, have got 12 different people to invest 2 bil each, telling each one that you were only trying to raise an extra 2bil. So, for future reference, many investors (by which I mean at least me ) will feel MUCH more comfortable with the key discussions taking place on the forum where they will be subject to public scrutiny in a way that private convos won't be. Once things are laid out on the forum then, by all means, advertise privately but the relevant data should be in the public domain first so that everyone knows what the score is and there are no confusions (as, for example, with Deth). It's also a good idea to not actually ask people to send you the isk until the investment is publicly filled. That way investors will know there is something fishy if you ask someone not on the list to send money. The second issue is connected to consulting with people. Once you mention peoples' names in connection with your plans, even if you then add that they in no way endorse your offer, those people are going to feel as if they have been connected to it in a way that they may not feel comfortable with. This is especially the case if you canvas for advice and state that you canvassed for advice but then chose not to follow much of it (again, this is understandable if you got offered what you wanted but will still seem problematic to those whose names are brought up). Thirdly, there are wider community issues to be considered. Whilst it is fully understandable that you would accept isk that is offered to you it is worth considering what type of offering you are encouraging investors to put money into. With no audit, no history and an expansion only two days after the initial offer it is arguably not very sensible to invest in someone that is not personally known to you. By encouraging people to take extremely high risk gambles you are, again arguably, encouraging lower quality offerings on MD. A question worth asking yourself is how an investor could distinguish your offering from a scam offering by someone who had never even traded? If an investor has no grounds to make such a determination, even if you are honest, then you are encouraging people to invest in offers that look identical to yours and a large number of such offers will be scams. This is why I mentioned to you the importance of audits as raising the bar for scammers. Whilst, in the short term, it might seem to be in your own best interests to get investments as easily as possible, in the long term if life is made easier for scammers and a lot of investment isk is lost to investments that look much like yours then you will find the pool of investors diminished in the future. So, if you intend to carry on offering bonds in the future it could be claimed that it is in your own best interests to take the steps that make life harder for scammers so as to encourage this as a norm and deter scammers from getting a larger piece of the investment pie.
flakeys DRAMA Inc Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.02.09 19:16:00 - [46] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur I wrote you in game as well Flakeys, so you may want to check eve-gate, not sure why you dont want me to convo you all of the sudden. My main question for the forums is did I do something wrong here? I understand why this would seem odd/irrational for you wich is why i said don't take it personally and for other questions besides your bond/ipo it is still no problem to convo me. Those that have hanged around long enough in MD should know verry well why i specifically am asking not to convo about this ipo/bond any more.I have let myself dig into such a hole a long time ago when i was new to MD and i am trying to avoid it hapening again.
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.09 19:46:00 - [47] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur My main question for the forums is did I do something wrong here? Not yet. Ask again in a couple of weeks. Or just save us some time and out yourself. The scam is strong in this one.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.09 20:26:00 - [48] Originally by: AkJon Ferguson Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur My main question for the forums is did I do something wrong here? Not yet. Ask again in a couple of weeks. Or just save us some time and out yourself. The scam is strong in this one. Can you please avoid posting things such as this that are both nonconstructive and have no basis. If you have any questions for me feel free to ask. The only thing I can do at the moment is refute your assumption that I am a scammer, obviously this solves nothing at this point. But please feel free to ask constructive questions regarding this situation.
Edwin Rothbard Interstellar Arbitrage	Posted - 2011.02.10 00:21:00 - [49] Let's review: 1) OP asks for 1.3b isk without a track record, audit, or collateral 2) 21 hours 49 minutes later bond is filled 3) 59 hours 18 minutes later OP asks for an addition 3.7b isk 4) 18 hours 5 minutes later 4.5b of the 5.0b is filled (OP has stated NAV of approx. 700m) 5) profit? The red flag to me is your unwillingness to see the original deal through before embarking on a new one.* You will miss deals over the next 27 days without the additional 3.7b isk. There were lots of good deals last month before you started raising money. There will be plenty more good deals next month when you have more money. IMO you should have stuck to your original plan for this month. *Yes Edwin is paranoid about most things.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 00:43:00 - [50] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Can you please avoid posting things such as this that are both nonconstructive and have no basis. If you have any questions for me feel free to ask. The only thing I can do at the moment is refute your assumption that I am a scammer, obviously this solves nothing at this point. But please feel free to ask constructive questions regarding this situation. A better response would have been something along the lines of "I hope you won't get too mad when I quote this post when I announce repayment in a month". Doing the standard "GET OUT OF MY THREAD YOU TROLL" garbage only gets people angry.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 00:47:00 - [51] Originally by: Edwin Rothbard Let's review: 1) OP asks for 1.3b isk without a track record, audit, or collateral 2) 21 hours 49 minutes later bond is filled 3) 59 hours 18 minutes later OP asks for an addition 3.7b isk 4) 18 hours 5 minutes later 4.5b of the 5.0b is filled (OP has stated NAV of approx. 700m) 5) profit? The red flag to me is your unwillingness to see the original deal through before embarking on a new one.* You will miss deals over the next 27 days without the additional 3.7b isk. There were lots of good deals last month before you started raising money. There will be plenty more good deals next month when you have more money. IMO you should have stuck to your original plan for this month. Yes Edwin is paranoid about most things. I offered the investors a way out. Consider this a new deal with the investors possibility to roll over into it. I was offered the money... I wasnt going to turn it down. Originally by:* Kalrand Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Can you please avoid posting things such as this that are both nonconstructive and have no basis. If you have any questions for me feel free to ask. The only thing I can do at the moment is refute your assumption that I am a scammer, obviously this solves nothing at this point. But please feel free to ask constructive questions regarding this situation. A better response would have been something along the lines of "I hope you won't get too mad when I quote this post when I announce repayment in a month". Doing the standard "GET OUT OF MY THREAD YOU TROLL" garbage only gets people angry. I dont mind him in my thread. If he feels uncomfortable about my actions, I respect his opinion. If he has questions I will answer them, but he statement was unnecessary and nonconstructive.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 00:51:00 - [52] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur If he has questions I will answer them, but he statement was unnecessary and nonconstructive. Market Discussion investment threads often live or die based on how the entrepreneur treats their critics.
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2011.02.10 00:59:00 - [53] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur If he has questions I will answer them, but he statement was unnecessary and nonconstructive. Market Discussion investment threads often live or die based on how the entrepreneur treats their critics. Very true. Whether it's your intention or not what it LOOKS like to many people that read MD threads is you trying to shut down criticism because it is "unfounded" well guess what ALL accusations of scammer are unfounded until the actual scam occurs. By then it is TOO LATE, which is why people call it out before hand.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 01:03:00 - [54] Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 10/02/2011 01:04:43 Originally by: Caldariftw123 Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur If he has questions I will answer them, but he statement was unnecessary and nonconstructive. Market Discussion investment threads often live or die based on how the entrepreneur treats their critics. Very true. Whether it's your intention or not what it LOOKS like to many people that read MD threads is you trying to shut down criticism because it is "unfounded" well guess what ALL accusations of scammer are unfounded until the actual scam occurs. By then it is TOO LATE, which is why people call it out before hand. Sorry if it seemed that way, as it was not my intention. Do either of you have any questions that I can address?
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 01:27:00 - [55] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Sorry if it seemed that way, as it was not my intention. Do either of you have any questions that I can address? After my first few questions, I've largely toned down my normal criticism, since I'm running a concurrent bond offering and don't want it to appear that I'm criticizing you to drive people over to my thread. Which started recently.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 01:36:00 - [56] Is it necessary to attempt to hijack my bond?
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 02:24:00 - [57] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Is it necessary to attempt to hijack my bond? Humor is not your strong suit, is it?
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 11:03:00 - [58] Investor list updated at Post 30. Confirming Paxol has now invested 10 blocks (1000m)
Paxol Amarr Athene Institute V.A.S.T.	Posted - 2011.02.10 11:33:00 - [59] Confirming i am investing 1BN after speaking with Lethal
Dezolf Minmatar DAX Action Stance	Posted - 2011.02.10 12:55:00 - [60] Edited by: Dezolf on 10/02/2011 12:56:45 Popping in to say that the OP has also contacted me ingame (by convo), asking if I was interested in investing in this bond (So, technically, it wasn't a "plz invest"-convo... ). ...Even though I havn't had any prior contact with OP, nor expressed any interest in this bond (to be honest, I hadn't even seen this thread before today), but I guess that's the standard approach? Edit: So I'll announce this here: I'm like Hollywood; You don't call me, I call you.
Corcyrus Endymion Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming	Posted - 2011.02.10 18:56:00 - [61] Edited by: Corcyrus Endymion on 10/02/2011 18:56:34 Originally by: Edwin Rothbard Let's review: 1) OP asks for 1.3b isk without a track record, audit, or collateral 2) 21 hours 49 minutes later bond is filled 3) 59 hours 18 minutes later OP asks for an addition 3.7b isk 4) 18 hours 5 minutes later 4.5b of the 5.0b is filled (OP has stated NAV of approx. 700m) 5) profit? The red flag to me is your unwillingness to see the original deal through before embarking on a new one.* You will miss deals over the next 27 days without the additional 3.7b isk. There were lots of good deals last month before you started raising money. There will be plenty more good deals next month when you have more money. IMO you should have stuck to your original plan for this month. *Yes Edwin is paranoid about most things. I wanted to not post any more negative stuff in other people's threads.. but this is just unbelievable. An original IPO for 1.3B getting filled is one thing, even if it's a pure gamble. A magical expansion concocted in the "I can haz investor" convo type of way and no one feels even a little bit... suspicious? If you are in the MD for the long haul instead of a smash and grab, you are interested enough to read existing IPOs, you will want to be clear enough for reinvestment and you yourself will have a clear and present reason as to why you need X isk, why you need it now and why you don't have it/get it somewhere else. Failure to comply hereto means you're either a self proclaimed MD elite or in it for the very very short term....
Arcy Dorei	Posted - 2011.02.10 18:57:00 - [62] Edited by: Arcy Dorei on 10/02/2011 18:59:25 [18:53:55] Lethal Entrepreneur > I know I dont knwo you well, but this incredible oppurtunity came up with this guys dumping all these items for cheap out here int eh middle of high sec.... [18:54:09] Lethal Entrepreneur > Do you think I could do a short term loan with you and pay you back 10% interest in an hour? So he convos me again, but on my trade alt so he doesn't know it's me I guess, and says the above ^^^ I figure people will like to know about this also - convoing random people asking for more debt? If this isn't a smash-and-grab scam now then I'll be very surprised. edit he might have known it was me, he says he does, that part isn't the relevant part, so ignore that bit of my post I guess. The issue is continuing to convo. people for more debt.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 19:05:00 - [63] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane I did not make my position clear in our private conversations; I preferred a closeout of existing bond and a new creation to an expansion. I would like to withdraw my investment; this should by no means indicate a lack of confidence in OP, simply a lack of risk tolerance on my end in the increased risk presented by a bond expansion. Did you ever get this back?
flakeys The Great cornholio's	Posted - 2011.02.10 19:05:00 - [64] Originally by: Arcy Dorei Edited by: Arcy Dorei on 10/02/2011 18:59:25 [18:53:55] Lethal Entrepreneur > I know I dont knwo you well, but this incredible oppurtunity came up with this guys dumping all these items for cheap out here int eh middle of high sec.... [18:54:09] Lethal Entrepreneur > Do you think I could do a short term loan with you and pay you back 10% interest in an hour? So he convos me again, but on my trade alt so he doesn't know it's me I guess, and says the above ^^^ I figure people will like to know about this also - convoing random people asking for more debt? If this isn't a smash-and-grab scam now then I'll be very surprised. edit he might have known it was me, he says he does, that part isn't the relevant part, so ignore that bit of my post I guess. The issue is continuing to convo. people for more debt. Has this convo been today?
Arcy Dorei	Posted - 2011.02.10 19:07:00 - [65] Originally by: flakeys Originally by: Arcy Dorei Edited by: Arcy Dorei on 10/02/2011 18:59:25 [18:53:55] Lethal Entrepreneur > I know I dont knwo you well, but this incredible oppurtunity came up with this guys dumping all these items for cheap out here int eh middle of high sec.... [18:54:09] Lethal Entrepreneur > Do you think I could do a short term loan with you and pay you back 10% interest in an hour? So he convos me again, but on my trade alt so he doesn't know it's me I guess, and says the above ^^^ I figure people will like to know about this also - convoing random people asking for more debt? If this isn't a smash-and-grab scam now then I'll be very surprised. edit he might have known it was me, he says he does, that part isn't the relevant part, so ignore that bit of my post I guess. The issue is continuing to convo. people for more debt. Has this convo been today? Yeah it was basically just now. Annoying more because despite already being told yesterday that as I am running my own IPO I cannot invest in his, I just don't like this one bit now.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 19:11:00 - [66] Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 10/02/2011 19:12:00 wrong post
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.02.10 19:21:00 - [67] MD - 8 years of risk assessment expertise...
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 19:41:00 - [68] Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 10/02/2011 19:42:01 An update. My goal when I first started this was to see how much money I could make, not by using the money, but by taking the money. This is not a brag post, but why are all of you investing in a noob who has played for 1 month, raised over a billion ISK in that 1 month (from scamming as well), was a pirate, had no audit, and expanded to 5 billion ISK? I planned to atleast stick around until the next bond, thinking this would be more of a challenge. But seriously? I bought this character for 1 billion, and people invest 5 times my character worth into me. What green flags are there in this investment? The fact I have 11%? People continued to invest in me even though I never actually processed DethÆs withdrawal. WAKE UP. Current Investor List: reservent - 15 blocks -1500m Dethmourne Silvermane û 7 blocks û 700m Narusegawa Naru - 5 blocks - 500m Von Bonez - 18 blocks - 1800m Hrabandur2 - 7 blocks - 700m Paxol - 10 blocks - 1000m Total: 6.2 billion For now consider this a lesson that people need to be more weary of who they are investing in. This was a demonstration of how easy it is to manipulate and take your money. A proposed fix to this would be to for auditors to actually give a discounted audit on a characterÆs first offering. I was quoted 100m by Lord Arbalest when I launched the bond, something someone with 700m NAV isnÆt going to cough up, hence an excuse to avoid one. I also would like to push for what Flakeys has pushed on me several times. Posting in the forums. I raised all of these funds BEFORE I had actually posted anything regarding it on the forums. No questions were even directed at me after the expansion. Ask questions please. Stop being so nice. Raw hit it perfectly when he said in a previous post this was hurting the community. It is, people need to start guarding their money better, if itÆs to good to be true it is. People are going to act in their own rational self-interest unless there is a cost to breaking the social constructs of the investment world. Everyone is an egoist, everyone will eventually do something that breaks your morals, it is your job to set up the consequences. So far I have none. My motivations for this were not purely monetarily, but for the simple fact, I knew I could do it. DonÆt defend me and say people in here forced me to, I was going to run either this time or next. Until we meet again, -Electus Ereptor P.S. Flakeys and Raw, obviously you guys had nothing to do with this. Both of you have extremely great personalities, and are a great fun to be around, I am sorry it ended (or I should say started) with these intentions. I really enjoyed talking with both of you. Fly safe o/ Oh and regarding the In ur base û stealing u risk corp. That had nothing to do with stealing, used to for corp contracting etc, but surprised nobody has pointed it out till now.
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.10 19:57:00 - [69] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 10/02/2011 19:42:01 An update. For now consider this a lesson that people need to be more weary of who they are investing in. I was very weary of you. That's why I asked you to speed things along. Thanks for complying.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.02.10 19:58:00 - [70] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 10/02/2011 19:59:52 being a rational human being (lol) - why do you try to give us advice on how to dry up that nice source of income you have found for yourself on this forum?
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:00:00 - [71] Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 10/02/2011 19:59:52 being a rational human being (lol) - why do you try to give us advice on how to dry up that nice source of income you have found for yourself on this forum? Maybe it benefits me somehow?
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:05:00 - [72] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Maybe it benefits me somehow? the "somehow" part was what I was asking about...
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:10:00 - [73] Originally by: Cyaxares II Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Maybe it benefits me somehow? the "somehow" part was what I was asking about... I cant tell you everything! SHEESH!
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:10:00 - [74] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur A proposed fix to this would be to for auditors to actually give a discounted audit on a characterÆs first offering. I was quoted 100m by Lord Arbalest when I launched the bond, something someone with 700m NAV isnÆt going to cough up, hence an excuse to avoid one. I'm just going to toss out there that I'll do a API fact-checking thing for people for free as long as I don't have to do any serious work. This is assuming you're a new poster.
Two Shots Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:13:00 - [75] This just lit up gs_isk and we're having a good laugh. Two Shots Goonwaffe
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:23:00 - [76] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 10/02/2011 20:25:14 Originally by: Two Shots This just lit up gs_isk and we're having a good laugh. Your gs_isk to MD real-time transcription service is certainly an interesting idea but imo it suffers from the flaw that if people would really want to know what's going on inside that channel they'd just be part of it.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:29:00 - [77] Obviously, repayment was not processed. v0v. This sort of thing has become less important to me over time.
Two Shots Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:30:00 - [78] Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 10/02/2011 20:25:14 Originally by: Two Shots This just lit up gs_isk and we're having a good laugh. Your gs_isk to MD real-time transcription service is certainly an interesting idea but imo it suffers from the flaw that if people would really want to know what's going on inside that channel they'd just be part of it. This is not true; there is a barrier to entry which most people cannot overcome. Two Shots Goonwaffe
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:32:00 - [79] Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 10/02/2011 20:25:14 Originally by: Two Shots This just lit up gs_isk and we're having a good laugh. Your gs_isk to MD real-time transcription service is certainly an interesting idea but imo it suffers from the flaw that if people would really want to know what's going on inside that channel they'd just be part of it. They're all watching this forum today because of my thread. Also, I mentioned that I thought this particular offering was an absolute and complete fraud. The conversation was about how some random character trader wandered in with a disposable alt and just slurped up billions, and that I was fully expecting to get raked over the coals for days on mine.
Fred Freedom GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:33:00 - [80] Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 10/02/2011 20:25:14 Originally by: Two Shots This just lit up gs_isk and we're having a good laugh. Your gs_isk to MD real-time transcription service is certainly an interesting idea but imo it suffers from the flaw that if people would really want to know what's going on inside that channel they'd just be part of it. OTOH, we did make a combined ~3 trillion isk off our collaboration less than a year ago and do have the ability to spot a scam a mile away, which is more than we can say for at least 6 people ITT.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:35:00 - [81] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 10/02/2011 20:25:14 Originally by: Two Shots This just lit up gs_isk and we're having a good laugh. Your gs_isk to MD real-time transcription service is certainly an interesting idea but imo it suffers from the flaw that if people would really want to know what's going on inside that channel they'd just be part of it. They're all watching this forum today because of my thread. Also, I mentioned that I thought this particular offering was an absolute and complete fraud. The conversation was about how some random character trader wandered in with a disposable alt and just slurped up billions, and that I was fully expecting to get raked over the coals for days on mine. In all seriousness this is my main...
RAW23	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:35:00 - [82] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur A proposed fix to this would be to for auditors to actually give a discounted audit on a characterÆs first offering. I was quoted 100m by Lord Arbalest when I launched the bond, something someone with 700m NAV isnÆt going to cough up, hence an excuse to avoid one. I'm just going to toss out there that I'll do a API fact-checking thing for people for free as long as I don't have to do any serious work. This is assuming you're a new poster. This could almost be an advert for the MD Audit Fund. Even though there were no applications for funding in its last 5 months of activity it still killed off this excuse for nearly a year. Within a month of the fund closing, we have it back. I'll repeat here what I said in the fund thread: I'm happy to keep up the activity of the fund from my personal wallet. I will pay for starter audits on request, whether or not I'm interested in investing. Experience suggests that this will not be an expensive service to offer but it should close down this excuse again. I'll make a thread tomorrow so that the info isn't buried in here. In general, whilst I obviously don't condone the OP's actions, he has done MD something of a favour by condensing so many red flags into a single object lesson that can be linked to anyone asking for advice on how (not) to invest in the future. It's a little difficult to feel sympathy for those who got scammed on this one. The various security measures that have developed on MD developed for a reason. If investors want a healthy market to sink their isk into then they should insist on these measures being applied consistently. Imperfect works in progress as they are, they are a lot better than nothing.
Cheque Please Hot Like Mexico	Posted - 2011.02.10 20:56:00 - [83] Originally by: RAW23 This could almost be an advert for the MD Audit Fund. Even though there were no applications for funding in its last 5 months of activity it still killed off this excuse for nearly a year. Within a month of the fund closing, we have it back. I'll repeat here what I said in the fund thread: I'm happy to keep up the activity of the fund from my personal wallet. I will pay for starter audits on request, whether or not I'm interested in investing. Experience suggests that this will not be an expensive service to offer but it should close down this excuse again. I'll make a thread tomorrow so that the info isn't buried in here. It's still a waste of time unless you have trusted people willing to do the audit. Most of the "trusted people" on MD know fully well how to trade, and therefore have billions of isk in their wallets. Why should they spend 10 hrs doing an audit for 50m unless they are masochists like VV? PS: I was denied funding by the MD Audit Fund --- RL Meeting w/ Chribba
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:04:00 - [84] Originally by: Cheque Please It's still a waste of time unless you have trusted people willing to do the audit. Most of the "trusted people" on MD know fully well how to trade, and therefore have billions of isk in their wallets. Why should they spend 10 hrs doing an audit for 50m unless they are masochists like VV? PS: I was denied funding by the MD Audit Fund I'll do an hours work for free if it makes the offers here a notch above "GIEV ISK!". VV's audits are trying to root out any possibly issue, that takes a ton of time, and more effort than will ever be worth a small bit of isk. The kinds of things I have been advocating are something less than that. "Does he have the skills he says he does" "does he have the assets he claims to have" and the like are all questions that can be answered easily, quickly, and raises the bar a bit higher than what we're getting these days.
Mas Cream Monetary Allocation Certified Securities Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:04:00 - [85] You answered too many questions and jumped through too many hoops. Buy Shares in Eve Online's First FAKE SCAM!
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:06:00 - [86] Originally by: Mas Cream You answered too many questions and jumped through too many hoops. Its for the lulz. And whos to say I wont pay it back on March 6th
Mas Cream Monetary Allocation Certified Securities Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:08:00 - [87] Edited by: Mas Cream on 10/02/2011 21:09:01 That would make it a fake scam. And we both know I am the first fake scammer! And now I remember you talking to me to, and I said I dont trust anyone with my isk :P Buy Shares in Eve Online's First FAKE SCAM!
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:10:00 - [88] Originally by: Mas Cream Edited by: Mas Cream on 10/02/2011 21:09:01 That would make it a fake scam. And we both know I am the first fake scammer! And now I remember you talking to me to, and I said I dont trust anyone with my isk :P Time will tell.
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:28:00 - [89] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur ... A proposed fix to this would be to for auditors to actually give a discounted audit on a characterÆs first offering. Oh yeah, that should have fixed everything! An audit would have stopped you from stealing the ISK. Those are very powerful auditors. Funny to hear a scammer recommending audits, when we all know audits can't prevent people for stealing your ISK. BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:29:00 - [90] Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur ... A proposed fix to this would be to for auditors to actually give a discounted audit on a characterÆs first offering. Oh yeah, that should have fixed everything! An audit would have stopped you from stealing the ISK. Those are very powerful auditors. Funny to hear a scammer recommending audits, when we all know audits can't prevent people for stealing your ISK. So do you have those assets or what?
Mas Cream Monetary Allocation Certified Securities Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:29:00 - [91] MACSI recommends less audits, more LOLCAT links. Buy Shares in Eve Online's First FAKE SCAM!
RAW23	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:34:00 - [92] Originally by: Cheque Please PS: I was denied funding by the MD Audit Fund I don't remember which way I voted on your audit (although, if memory serves, I only voted against one in total) but looking again at your first offering thread it is not entirely surprising that you were not considered to be a serious potential recipient of charitably donated funds . I think promising an audit in your OP, then doing an about face once the bond filled (pending audit), and then changing your mind again once all your potential investors withdrew might possibly have had something to do with it. Fake edit Looking at my mail, I voted for funding your audit btw.
Hrabandur2 Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:39:00 - [93] Thx for the business opportunity. I confirm that i recieved the anticipated interest and principal. You have however ended this a touch soon. As you say you might want to pay more interest i would like that I also liked your convos! Always ready to chat spending some time with your investors is nice. The stop loss thing should become a standart for MD, but i think that wont happen cause nobody else seemed to like that part. I however see the need for a simple structure for unsecured bonds i the future with a performance check included that shouldn't be to hard to implement. So i want to thank you again for the great time chatting with you and i hope you invest the money good. Nice played and fly safe
RAW23	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:50:00 - [94] Edited by: RAW23 on 10/02/2011 21:51:23 Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur ... A proposed fix to this would be to for auditors to actually give a discounted audit on a characterÆs first offering. Oh yeah, that should have fixed everything! An audit would have stopped you from stealing the ISK. Those are very powerful auditors. Funny to hear a scammer recommending audits, when we all know audits can't prevent people for stealing your ISK. I don't think many people who argue for audits argue that they stop scams (although they can stop Ponzi schemes from growing and, thus, stop scammers from stealing MORE isk). The claim is, rather, that they give investors more information to base their risk assessments on. Btw, how is your audit coming along? Have you selected an auditor yet?
soncir	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:57:00 - [95] Well I lost a little isk on my first MD investment. I'll go back to the other sources for future. I am amazed you'd burn the char for a few billion though.
Two Shots Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 22:07:00 - [96] Originally by: soncir Edited by: soncir on 10/02/2011 22:01:15 Well I lost a little isk on my first MD investment. I'll go back to the other sources for future. I am amazed you'd burn the char for a few billion though. Alt edit fail: Reservent. Why are you amazed by that? The character cost him 1 billion to buy and made him 6.2 billion. That's over a 500% return on his investment. Two Shots Goonwaffe
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 22:10:00 - [97] Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 10/02/2011 22:10:40 Originally by: Two Shots Originally by: soncir Edited by: soncir on 10/02/2011 22:01:15 Well I lost a little isk on my first MD investment. I'll go back to the other sources for future. I am amazed you'd burn the char for a few billion though. Alt edit fail: Reservent. Why are you amazed by that? The character cost him 1 billion to buy and made him 6.2 billion. That's over a 500% return on his investment. I scammed the 1bn on my first toon as well, Actually even when i posted this thread I had a price check going for the price of this character to be sold out. Nobody bothered checking last posts or anything.
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2011.02.10 23:28:00 - [98] Originally by: RAW23 I don't think many people who argue for audits argue that they stop scams (although they can stop Ponzi schemes from growing and, thus, stop scammers from stealing MORE isk). The claim is, rather, that they give investors more information to base their risk assessments on. Btw, how is your audit coming along? Have you selected an auditor yet? It might help with regard to the business assessment, but it does nothing for scam assessment. An audit is a useful tool for a scammer to gain more ISK. You still thinking of a poor scammer, but most scammers build scams over previous scams, so they have resources to make an audit look legit. Do you still believe audits cannot be forged? Regarding BSAC, we created a new account and are moving the CSF assets over to the new account, which is a bit time consuming. With the exception of contracts (no contract API), this separate account will allow for a full transparency in the CSF business; becoming the first business to do so. Regarding the auditor, I have not found anyone trustworthy to do the audit yet. BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2011.02.10 23:30:00 - [99] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur I scammed the 1bn on my first toon as well, Actually even when i posted this thread I had a price check going for the price of this character to be sold out. Nobody bothered checking last posts or anything. I guess your next step is to abuse the audit mentality and steal more funds with an even bigger IPO. BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.10 23:36:00 - [100] Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur I scammed the 1bn on my first toon as well, Actually even when i posted this thread I had a price check going for the price of this character to be sold out. Nobody bothered checking last posts or anything. I guess your next step is to abuse the audit mentality and steal more funds with an even bigger IPO. I can neither confirm nor deny any future plans. Also if anyone with an idea how to work any market tool had my full api, I would have never raised a dime.
Cheque Please Hot Like Mexico	Posted - 2011.02.11 00:04:00 - [101] Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Cheque Please PS: I was denied funding by the MD Audit Fund I don't remember which way I voted on your audit (although, if memory serves, I only voted against one in total) but looking again at your first offering thread it is not entirely surprising that you were not considered to be a serious potential recipient of charitably donated funds . I think promising an audit in your OP, then doing an about face once the bond filled (pending audit), and then changing your mind again once all your potential investors withdrew might possibly have had something to do with it. Fake edit Looking at my mail, I voted for funding your audit btw. Haha, no worries. I don't blame anyone; my first bond was probably a little too crazy. I wouldn't have invested in me either. On topic: Lethal, I'm curious as to what your end game is. Most scammers just cut and run and maybe try to do it again with a new character, but you're still here advocating audits and tighter security. --- RL Meeting w/ Chribba
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2011.02.11 00:16:00 - [102] Originally by: Cheque Please On topic: Lethal, I'm curious as to what your end game is. Most scammers just cut and run and maybe try to do it again with a new character, but you're still here advocating audits and tighter security. Bad Bobby did the same thing. He even gave the MD Audit Fund a chance to find a new investment so he didn't rob it. He even stated that, but I can't be asked to dig through the piles of posts looking for it. So in summary is LE = BB alt?
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2011.02.11 00:25:00 - [103] Originally by: Breaker77 So in summary is LE = BB alt? lol, for a second there I was about to tear you a new one I would say no, as the other LE is clearly quite an intelligent human being, while Bad Bobby was an incompetent idiot.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.02.11 00:29:00 - [104] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 11/02/2011 00:30:52 Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Cheque Please On topic: Lethal, I'm curious as to what your end game is. Most scammers just cut and run and maybe try to do it again with a new character, but you're still here advocating audits and tighter security. Bad Bobby did the same thing. He even gave the MD Audit Fund a chance to find a new investment so he didn't rob it. He even stated that, but I can't be asked to dig through the piles of posts looking for it. So in summary is LE = BB alt? Fun thing, I was thinking exactly the same. It's the most dangerous scammer. The regular ones are "too heavy" and easily caught, the "random trigger inside" scammer sometimes does not even know he is a scammer, he just entertrains the idea (even in this scam, the OP says he might pay back, another BB alike ambiguity between scam, not scam, give back but always be under the ligths. It's also a sign of a little personality disorder. Quote: I would say no, as the other LE is clearly quite an intelligent human being, while Bad Bobby was an incompetent idiot You have only seen a certain facet of BB, the one he wanted you to see. Best scammers are also magnificent roleplayers. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Cheque Please Hot Like Mexico	Posted - 2011.02.11 00:31:00 - [105] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Originally by: Breaker77 So in summary is LE = BB alt? lol, for a second there I was about to tear you a new one I would say no, as the other LE is clearly quite an intelligent human being, while Bad Bobby was an incompetent idiot. That's odd, because they're both really just Ji Sama alts (including Breaker) --- RL Meeting w/ Chribba
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.11 00:37:00 - [106] My end-game? I like a challenge.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.11 00:48:00 - [107] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 11/02/2011 00:30:52 Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Cheque Please On topic: Lethal, I'm curious as to what your end game is. Most scammers just cut and run and maybe try to do it again with a new character, but you're still here advocating audits and tighter security. Bad Bobby did the same thing. He even gave the MD Audit Fund a chance to find a new investment so he didn't rob it. He even stated that, but I can't be asked to dig through the piles of posts looking for it. So in summary is LE = BB alt? Fun thing, I was thinking exactly the same. It's the most dangerous scammer. The regular ones are "too heavy" and easily caught, the "random trigger inside" scammer sometimes does not even know he is a scammer, he just entertrains the idea (even in this scam, the OP says he might pay back, another BB alike ambiguity between scam, not scam, give back but always be under the ligths. It's also a sign of a little personality disorder. Explains why I always attract the weirdos.
Marhaba	Posted - 2011.02.11 03:22:00 - [108] I knew this was a scam when Lethal convo'd me out of the blue, even though I've had no previous contact with the person. I'm not linking the whole chat log, just the one relevant line from me: [ 2011.02.08 01:47:44 ] Marhaba > Sounds like a scam to me
ArtemisSDS	Posted - 2011.02.11 04:48:00 - [109] This guy convoed me as well. I kind of knew that it was a scam at that point. 6bil+ in less than a week? not bad
Lost Hamster Hamster Holding Corp	Posted - 2011.02.11 09:57:00 - [110] Hehe, He convoed me as well. However I had to turn him down, no posting history, first bound, no audit, extreme expansion. To many red flag to give him any money. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shields are like pants, they're supposed to come off. Armor is like the condom once its gone ur ****ed
RAW23	Posted - 2011.02.11 12:07:00 - [111] Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: RAW23 I don't think many people who argue for audits argue that they stop scams (although they can stop Ponzi schemes from growing and, thus, stop scammers from stealing MORE isk). The claim is, rather, that they give investors more information to base their risk assessments on. It might help with regard to the business assessment, but it does nothing for scam assessment. An audit is a useful tool for a scammer to gain more ISK. You still thinking of a poor scammer, but most scammers build scams over previous scams, so they have resources to make an audit look legit. Do you still believe audits cannot be forged? Yes, I am primarily thinking about audits for first time offerings in my comments in this thread. They have a great role to play in making life harder for scammers by ensuring that an offeror doesn't have known scammers on his account and wasn't given life through suspicious isk transfers; that they are actually trading as they claim; that they have the skills and nav that is claimed. Without the ability to check all these things there is no way to distinguish between someone who does trade, have skills and some nav, plus a clean account, on the one hand, and someone who has never traded, has no trade skills and has alts on the same account that run contract scams. As long as the second person can cut and paste a similar offering post to the first person there will be pretty much no way to tell the difference between them without an audit. With regards to audits on bigger businesses could you give any examples where 'the audit mentality' to which you refer has led people to invest in a scam that would otherwise have been avoided? I've only been around for 16 months but I don't think I've seen any such situations in my time here. I just don't buy the theoretical claim that an audit is a useful tool to gain more isk for a scammer as it breaks down to the claim that the investors are safer if big businesses are not audited than if they are. Assuming the pot of investor cash remains equal in both cases I really can't see anything, either theoretical or evidential, to back up the suggestion that investing in an audited offering is riskier than investing in an unaudited offering. The only way I can see to claim that audits are detrimental in the way you suggest would be to add in the supposition that having audits increases the amount of isk in the investment market and that the extra isk goes entirely, or at least disproportionately, to audited large investment vehicles which, in turn, turn out to be scams sufficiently often to overtake the losses from scams in non-audited large businesses. But, again, whilst that works as a theoretical hypothesis the evidence just doesn't seem to support it, unless there have been some large audited scams of which I am not aware. On the question of forgery, I am sure this is possible to some extent, depending on the manner in which an audit is done. One Stop, for instance, was independently audited on an ongoing basis, rather than on the basis of a single snap shot and would,thus, have found forgery to be very difficult, whilst the same cannot be said of an audit of the whole operation of a business like BSAC if done on a snap shot basis. But, in any case, even if a full audit is impossible, an anti-Ponzi audit could not, I think, be forged. You either have, or have access to, X amount of assets or you do not. The only way to get around one of these would be to raise a completely private and secret loan to cover the shortfall for the duration of the audit.
Corcyrus Endymion Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming	Posted - 2011.02.11 17:05:00 - [112] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur My end-game? I like a challenge. A challenge? How is parting idiots with their isk a challenge? If you had LE/VV/RAW by the nose, that I would consider at least slightly challenging. This whole IPO was as obvious a scam as any other. Let alone the mere pittance you got away with.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.11 17:11:00 - [113] Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 11/02/2011 17:12:16 Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur My end-game? I like a challenge. A challenge? How is parting idiots with their isk a challenge? If you had LE/VV/RAW by the nose, that I would consider at least slightly challenging. This whole IPO was as obvious a scam as any other. Let alone the mere pittance you got away with. Haha, reread what I said and what I was responding to. You can't move to better things without having some sort of startup ISK. 6.2b is chump change in the scheme of things, but it was a necessary take for the moment. Also it was a bond, principle pay back after fixed duration, all that jazz.
Corcyrus Endymion Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming	Posted - 2011.02.11 17:18:00 - [114] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 11/02/2011 17:12:16 Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur My end-game? I like a challenge. A challenge? How is parting idiots with their isk a challenge? If you had LE/VV/RAW by the nose, that I would consider at least slightly challenging. This whole IPO was as obvious a scam as any other. Let alone the mere pittance you got away with. Haha, reread what I said and what I was responding to. You can't move to better things without having some sort of startup ISK. 6.2b is chump change in the scheme of things, but it was a necessary take for the moment. Also it was a bond, principle pay back after fixed duration, all that jazz. My bad. I was too engrossed in righteous fury and furious anger at the sheer greed of people throwing away isk/time because thinking is :effort:. It's a sport I guess.
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.11 17:27:00 - [115] Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Edited by: Lethal Entrepreneur on 11/02/2011 17:12:16 Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur My end-game? I like a challenge. A challenge? How is parting idiots with their isk a challenge? If you had LE/VV/RAW by the nose, that I would consider at least slightly challenging. This whole IPO was as obvious a scam as any other. Let alone the mere pittance you got away with. Haha, reread what I said and what I was responding to. You can't move to better things without having some sort of startup ISK. 6.2b is chump change in the scheme of things, but it was a necessary take for the moment. Also it was a bond, principle pay back after fixed duration, all that jazz. My bad. I was too engrossed in righteous fury and furious anger at the sheer greed of people throwing away isk/time because thinking is :effort:. It's a sport I guess. A sport seems to be a rather admissible definition. In the end though its not about the ISK, the ISK is secondary to my motives.
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2011.02.11 17:41:00 - [116] you're going to give the isk back on payment date, aren't you? You get your bond, forum troll fun AND another laugh at the end by doing this. Seems to be the in thing lately .. honest IPOs with collateral, scams-that-don't-scam-but-profit, etc. .. where's my old MD gone? :S
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.11 17:47:00 - [117] Originally by: Caldariftw123 you're going to give the isk back on payment date, aren't you? You get your bond, forum troll fun AND another laugh at the end by doing this. Seems to be the in thing lately .. honest IPOs with collateral, scams-that-don't-scam-but-profit, etc. .. where's my old MD gone? :S It would provide a good laugh no doubt... not sure if any of my investors would reinvest though.
Two Shots Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 18:01:00 - [118] Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Originally by: Caldariftw123 you're going to give the isk back on payment date, aren't you? You get your bond, forum troll fun AND another laugh at the end by doing this. Seems to be the in thing lately .. honest IPOs with collateral, scams-that-don't-scam-but-profit, etc. .. where's my old MD gone? :S It would provide a good laugh no doubt... not sure if any of my investors would reinvest though. Never underestimate the stupidity or irritability of random pubbies. Two Shots Goonwaffe
Lethal Entrepreneur	Posted - 2011.02.12 17:44:00 - [119] Well I bid you all an exciting future! Sadly this character is being transferred to a new owner for the amount of 2bn. If you need to contact me you may do so on Electus Ereptor. Until next time.
Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2011.02.15 00:54:00 - [120] Originally by: Arcy Dorei Originally by: Lethal Entrepreneur Originally by: Lederstrumpf Originally by: Kalrand I'm kind of surprised that a new-to-MD character trader was able to walk in here and raise 5 billion isk. He did raise the expansion by private convo'ing people from MD prior to setting up his expansion post in here, telling them current investors kinda agreed to the expansion plan... Let me correct you and Arcy there Let me clarify .. there's no need to 'correct' me +1

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