Hmmm Ya Amarr dose have some nice ships here and there but most of them dont use lasers which is a little funny. Btw with the neft that was a long time ago when amarr ships where way to over op lol what happend any way I did not know that they were going to buff amarr. Which makes me real glade to hear.

Punnisher, Anything without damige ++ For lazers

In most of the Amarr ships, if you have your skills up to snuff, and you are not using lasers + scorch, you are doing it wrong. :p

Correction: If you have to use scorch to do it right, then CCP is doing it wrong.

- reliance on Scorch, pulse lasers "suck" till you get scorch and then they're OP. It's not very well balanced

- useless bonuses on some Amarr ships (see Maller and Prophecy)

Oh, you mean like autocannons and Barrage...



Maybe because CCP hasn't balanced cruisers and battlecruisers yet?

Yes, lets entirely forget that projectile ammo has damage type selection and some even have a tracking bonus, projectiles are super easy to fit, don't use cap and have good tracking to begin with

Also, lets forget that said bonuses have been around for years so we shouldn't at all use it as an argument, right?

Pros
1. Range
2. Armor tank
3. Very nice ships here and there

Cons
1. **** cap
2. All the other diffrent fraction ships seam op
3. Tracking (OK for the Amarr Race but not with all the other cons)
4. Solo pvp Is normaly just a sad day unless you use a Pilgrim, Hevey assault ship, or Command ship mabey (never flown one)
5. Fleet pvp Would be great other from the point that no one seams to fly armor any more
6. When it dose come to range these days Caldari Seams to have just as much if not more with missiles
7. At the End It just sad to know that you wasted your SP trainning in such a point less race.

I would like to Here coments on how other people thought of amarr after the nerf. And how they may use the Amarr ships.

Barrage is limited to explosive/kinetic damage.
Scorch is ~81% of EM and rest is thermal.

Both have penalty to tracking.

No reload time with laser crystals. Infinite T1 laser ammo.

I see you avoided the actual points I mentioned.

What's to avoid, both Scorch as Barrage having fixed damage types and a tracking penalty? how is this a ground breaking discovery?

I see you avoided the actual points I mentioned.

Oh no... not this discussion again.

Since when is the Slicer underpowered? Malediction is one of the best tackling frigates... and Vengance and Retribution are awesome... one for the tank and the other for the DPS output. Pilgrim and especially the Curse are overhelming nand Amarr BS are well known to be the best of large fleet fight. I really have no idea what you are talking about. Try and fly some other races and then you will see that those also suffer from many issues.

Damage selection doesn't exist in T2 minmatar ammo. It's all Exp/Kin. T1 has been recently changed to have 3 range tiers for the different damage types, however this is NOT like caldari. The damage is still mixed. Exp and Kin feature heavily in all minmatar ammo.

P.s. the 'tracking bonus' is basically non existant. it's just another way of saying "This ammo nerfs your tracking by not bonusing it". The guns tracking is balanced accordingly.

My good half page long post mitigating basically all your points?

I simply stated a list of "issues" amarr has, which are factual. I never stated amarr as a whole to be "bad" nor did I dispute your statements, also unless the other guy is your alt I wasn't even replying to you.

Also, your 2nd point is hilarious; "angel is pirate faction so doesn't count but goddamn the Nightmare is awesome so THERE!"

Bhaalghorns bro, Bhaalgorns.

I see you avoided the actual points I mentioned.

You mean the fact that all weapon systems have different advantages and disadvantages?

Laser tracking is fixed in some hulls. Check Coercer and Crusader.

I saw the thread title and LOLd. Then I read the thread and LOLd again.

So that whole list of downsides I stated is made up for by "oh look at the Coercer and Crusader, those get a tracking bonus!"? Apart from the fact that tracking is hardly the main issue lasers have, the Coercer and Crusader aren't exactly core/main ships in the Amarr line up, now are they.

You really have to get better and more logical arguments.

If tracking isn't an issue then why are you whining and for what reasons?

Which part of "is hardly the main issue" don't you understand?

The problem Amarr has is the following:

- massive fitting issues, it's nigh impossible for a lower SP character to fit a decent laserboat and even at super high SP it can be a *****
- massive cap issues with laserboats, obvious really
- lack of mobility, mass/agility plays a role but also cap use is an issue, you simply can't run MWD together with a point and lasers as you can with projectiles on a minnie ship
- lack of control, as amarr ships tend to lack midslots and mobility it's very difficult to control a scenario and because of that they tend to do better in fleet roles than solo
- reliance on Scorch, pulse lasers "suck" till you get scorch and then they're OP. It's not very well balanced
- pulse lasers are "mid range" weapons, while it adds versatility it also lacks focus
- useless bonuses on some Amarr ships (see Maller and Prophecy)

I dunno, every race has their awesome ships and their not so awesome ships. There's enough awesome ships in the Amarr lineup that I don't regret training them.

-Liang

Concidering you have like all ship skills in game maxed though this doesn't really say that much. Would you be happy with Amarr ships all by themselves without beeing able to support yourself on another race?

*shnip*

Point being that a race, class or ship being subpar doesn't really mean it isn't fun to play with. But it's borderline depressing to rely on it exclusively because you lack that extra Oomph/Cowbell when you wanna do something your race doesn't do as well.

I do feel that the Harb could do with just a little love to bring it up to the standard of the other tier2 BCs. It doesn't need a whole lot...maybe just a range bonus to make it into a minipoc, or a resist bonus to make it into a minibaddon? I don't know - maybe just a moderate stat change would do it?

I do feel that the Harb could do with just a little love to bring it up to the standard of the other tier2 BCs. It doesn't need a whole lot...maybe just a range bonus to make it into a minipoc, or a resist bonus to make it into a minibaddon? I don't know - maybe just a moderate stat change would do it? Right now it just doesn't project damage quite well enough and it it's not quite mobile enough and it's just not quite tanky enough. It needs help in one of those categories.

That is what I want.

Abbadon, Punisher, Prophecy and Maller = Dmg + Resist.
Omen, Tormentor, Apoc and Harbinger Dmg + Range.
Armageddon, Executioner and Oracle = Damge + Tracking

Omen (6 Guns no Drones)
Maller (5 Guns 25m3 Drone Bay)

Down with the Cap Bonuses.

Hmmm, sure - I can see some smallish boosts to the Harbinger. A resist bonus would eat the role of the Prophecy and an optimal bonus would utterly obsolete the Zealot. To me it's just a couple of moderate stats changes. Add a bit of fittings space and increase mobility a bit.

-Liang

I think people should be more careful about suggesting tracking and optimal bonuses. Most of those ships are either fine or need only a small nudge. A revamp of that scale would make Amarr The Race To Fly, Hands Down.

-Liang

Even though its not the greatest, the Legion can be a Zealot + insane tank.

Legion is pvp king in W-space.

This is the first time that I've heard anything like this. Can you tell me more?

I'd love to hear as well. All I ever hear about being in W-space is Loki and Tengu. Would be great to hear Legion does something better ;)

As a small-scale PvP pilot, I don't see how Amarr can be considered equal to even Gallente, much less Minmatar. Heck, I'd say Caldari are ahead.

But I do see where these speaches 'Amarr are good' come from. If all you're doing is pressing a button upon FC command, then yeah, Amarr might be a good choice.

All in all, having races balanced by PvP scale is simply moronic. In that case everyone meets pretty much the same ships all over again, the difference is those are A, B and C for a soloer and X, Y and Z for a blobtard.

I realize that you've said this, but I don't see how you've justified it. From what I can see, Amarr is not lacking in the solo or small gang department at all. The Executioner, Sentinel, Arbitrator, NOmen, and Curse are all fantastic solo ships. The Harbinger is a bit slow but it does alright and the Oracle lacks a drone bay and also does alright.

I'm just not seeing where the beef is.

-Liang

Ed: You can arguably use the Pilgrim, Zealot, and Sacrilege for solo ships as well. The Zealot is easily the best of the bunch but gets knocked a bit for not having a drone bay.

That is what I want.

Abbadon, Punisher, Prophecy and Maller = Dmg + Resist.
Omen, Tormentor, Apoc and Harbinger Dmg + Range.
Armageddon, Executioner and Oracle = Damge + Tracking

Omen (6 Guns no Drones)
Maller (5 Guns 25m3 Drone Bay)

Down with the Cap Bonuses.

lot of people play amarr wanting heavy armor and laser beams of death. When you look at the ships of that basic Ammarian doctrine is when things look greener everywhere else. you grudgingly semi included harbinger, agreed its not bad the others are just better. But in pvp the most used ship class seems to be BC, or cruisers for poor folks which is what all races get compared by, right or wrong.

Sum it up, amarr has awesome ships. But a race is judged usually by its vanilla ships which aren't the ones anyone raves about when talking about amarr.

I realize that you've said this, but I don't see how you've justified it.

As said above, I'm expecting some really hard punching from Amarr solo boats. Listing Curse among those is .

As said above, I'm expecting some really hard punching from Amarr solo boats. Listing Curse among those is . Also I'd like to have different options within the same ship, just like Matari and, to lesser extent, Gallente do. Atm Amarr neither provide hard punching nor they have diverse options. That's surely mostly my personal view, but I don't see anything Amarr could potentially offer as counterparts for: NH, Tengu, Mach, Sleip, Vindi or even Golem. Bhaal is niche, Nightmare is pathetically slow and hardly usable in dynamic environment, Abso is lacking is many ways, plain tech1 batteships are meh for solo (while both Phoon and Pest are quite good) and Legion lacks DPS for my taste. I guess I've covered the 'assault' department.

Solo:

Both the slicer and coercer are good. The coercer is going to get nerfed and lose that 4 low though and then I don't know how good it will be anymore.

The problems with larger amarr solo are 2:
1) You can easilly get caught by smaller ships and not have any mids for webs.
2) You don't have the mids to effectively use asbs.

The apoc used to be decent if if you put 2 large neuts on there. But now with asbs not using cap I wouldn't fly them solo.

For gangs and fleets amarr have good ships though.

Duuude, try the Executioner out. It's not as nice as the Slicer but it's pretty damn fine. Also, with Med Pulse and Med Beams getting buffed... !

Anyway, the Arbitrator is actually a pretty great solo ship. ASB fit with drone damage mods, it's easily superior to the Vexor.

-Liang

Or take the Omen: good laser boat

This is ultimately the problem with the Amarr lineup: lots of good ships, but none are really "best in class" for their role.

Uhhhhh, I wouldn't say that...... ever.....

-Liang

I think it's because the ships you listed for amarr are niche ships. A lot of people play amarr wanting heavy armor and laser beams of death. When you look at the ships of that basic Ammarian doctrine is when things look greener everywhere else. you grudgingly semi included harbinger, agreed its not bad the others are just better. But in pvp the most used ship class seems to be BC, or cruisers for poor folks which is what all races get compared by, right or wrong.

Sum it up, amarr has awesome ships. But a race is judged usually by its vanilla ships which aren't the ones anyone raves about when talking about amarr.

If you want to say that sitting still and raining God's Punishment down upon the heathens is Amarr's "doctrine", then I think you'd be hard pressed to say that the Cyclone and Sleipnir are operating in the Minmatar kite only racial niche when ASB fit. You'd have a lot more trouble saying that the small gang Talos is operating in Gallente role as well.

Basically: you're hung up on how you perceive Amarr to be fit and flown.

-Liang

In my haste of posting examples, I forgot that Talos right now is mainly used for longer range in smaller scrimmages. And your right, an ASB tanked Cyclone isn't using it's speed to determine it's engagement (still decently fast and will still be useful at some point). But the fact remains that the Cyclone and Sleipnir are using projectile turrets with a mix of speed during engagements and are not relying on target painting or webbing to fight.

As far as being hung up on how I perceive Amarr to be - well one thing is true - I'd like there to be options for Amarr ships that exceed at small gang/solo pvp that actually use lasers and tank and not speed and range. My point is that why train lasers, armor tank, and Amarr ships to only use the very few specialized ships in the racial line that don't rely on those skills. In that case, I'd just rather prefer Minmatar and Gallente. You have to admit that it's a bit odd.

As far as being hung up on how I perceive Amarr to be - well one thing is true - I'd like there to be options for Amarr ships that exceed at small gang/solo pvp that actually use lasers and tank and not speed and range. My point is that why train lasers, armor tank, and Amarr ships to only use the very few specialized ships in the racial line that don't rely on those skills. In that case, I'd just rather prefer Minmatar and Gallente. You have to admit that it's a bit odd.

If you're wanting to use lasers and tank to win in small gangs, then there is nothing wrong with the NOmen, Prophecy, Zealot, and Absolution. But you must be prepared for when the enemy turns your "small gang PVP" into "small gang vs massive blob PVP".

-Liang

I kind of agree with Arya in that there are not a lot Amarr ships that go well in their doctrine atm in PvP (yeah, I see them as Raining God's fury down on heathens while Well tanked (good tank, good dps, not so fast, but not sitting still)). However, I am keeping faith that CCP is addressing that in the ship passes (already love what they did for frigates)

There is nothing that CCP can ever do to fix the "sit at zero and pew pew" philosophy's weakness in small gang combat. That weakness doesn't derive from ship balance, but from vulnerability to additional ships.

Your list of ships is interesting, but only in the sense that CCP has promised that those ships are being fixed with tierification. The Omen, Maller, and Prophecy are specifically promised to be fixed, while I suspect the Harbinger will stay the same while its peers are nerfed.

-Liang

The thing about it is that Amarr armor is never going to be popular as long as it can't adequately deal with the PVP situation going from "small gang vs small gang" to "small gang vs large gang". The only way to deal with that is being blatantly OP, having superior mobility (to leave), or evening the numbers up. Fat and slow ships (of any race) are always going to be considered inferior in small gangs for that express reason.

So while you may not be saying "sit absolutely still", you seem to be saying that fat slow Amarr armor ships should be equally powerful in small gang combat as fast/agile Minmatar/Gallente ships. And that's what I'm drawing exception to. The ships I've listed as being good in small gang combat are fast enough and ideally have an optimal bonus to mitigate tackle risk and damage. That is to say, I believe that Amarr should (and does) have fast enough laser ships to participate successfully in both solo and small gang warfare.

As to the upcoming boosts: yeah I'm super excited. From what I've been able to glean from dev posts and the CSM minutes:
- The Omen is getting slots and fittings.
- The Maller is getting a damage bonus to become a mini Abaddon
- The Prophecy is getting a drone damage bonus
- Cruisers as a whole are going to be faster and perhaps longer ranged
- BCs as a whole are going to be coming up to "low" Tier 2 BC standards (eg, the Myrm and Binger are "fine" but the Cane and Drake will eat a nerf).
- Tier 3s are getting smacked in the face with regards to sig and speed
- T3s are getting smacked in the face on the whole
- Both Field and Fleet Command Ships are getting boosted
- Gang links are probably being brought on grid
- HML are likely to eat a nerf
- Armor rig penalties are likely to change
- ASBs are going to eat a nerf

Most of this will happen after the Winter expansion. I think we're only going to see the frigates and maybe the beginning of T2 frigate Tierification for Winter.

-Liang

- The Omen is getting slots and fittings.
-Liang

This is a good point and one that is hard to realize until you think about it. As many in this thread have pointed out, there are a fair amount of good specialized ships in the Amarr line. However, the main problem I see with Amarr ships (and what I think the above quoted post is saying) is that none of these are what you expect from Amarr, that is, a hard hitting, heavily armored laser boat.

Curse/pilgrim - neut/td/drone boats with meh tank (depending on fit).

Zealot - sniper boat with no tank.

Navy Omen/Slicer - similar to zealot. I understand Navy Omen can be fit for a closer range brawler though too.

Arbitrator - baby curse.

Take a look at those ships. They are not heavily tanked, laser boats. In fact, funny enough, they are the opposite in many cases. This makes you understand why they are the chosen small-gang/solo pvp Amarr ships - because they are nothing like the "standard" Amarr doctrine line up is!

The only ships I think you can add for "true" Amarr type ships that exceed at solo/small gang pvp are the new Punisher and the Harby. And even the Harby is a stretch as many have pointed out. It needs a bit more powergrid and a bit less mass too be honest.

Now, comparatively, looking at Minmatar and Gallente races you can easily find multiple ships that exceed at small gang/solo pvp that actually follow their racial doctrine: talos, tornado, rifter, incursus, hurricane (now cyclone too, due to the ASB), myrm, brutix, tornado, phoon, dominix, vexor, stabber fleet issue, loki, proteus (legion needs a 6th laser turret!). Looking at these ships it's clear they follow their racial doctrines (minmatar being fast and in your face + neuts, or long range with speed - or gallente rush you and blast your face or drone you to death).

...Just a few thoughts.

Yes, Angel and Guristas are ******* terrible to fight with lasers. No argument. Fortunately, you can cross train if you don't like it - and then you have the bonus of being able to use the Right Ship For The Right Job. :)

-Liang

One thing I have noticed (and I think I pointed it out somewhere else) is with the current proliferation of Neuts / Nos on seemingly every ship I encounter, my Amarr laser boats get shut down much easier than my Caldari or Gallente ones.

Their laser ships use so much cap, especially when added to everything else that tends to be running. Granted, they start with the highest base cap, but with neuts being the must-have toy for 90% of ships, it gets knocked out very fast. Having a cargo full of cap boosters helps, but its rough having to give up one of their already tight medium fittings for it.

I would love to see them find another way to limit lasers to Amarr ships, other than just cap reduction / level on the ship class. Having that spot for actual weapon buffs (tracking, optimal, firing rate, etc), like the other races have, would be much preferred. I just feel that with the other system buffs, lasers with the ship cap reduction method is a bit outdated now.

(this is pvp, not pve, where I can simply go with an active tank and not worry about neuting).

~Zyella

The ship bonuses for amarr is pretty bad and it's really hard to make a good fit, the guns takes up so much more fitting compared to the other weapons and they don't really have any good t1 ships except for a couple of frigates.

waiting to see how ccp rebalance the ships. right now though amarr is pretty meh. in many situations. the caps/supercaps are IMO some of the best.

WTF is it with the amarr hate recently???
they are probably the single best overall balanced race.

Good T1 ships, superb T2 ships, fantastic faction/pirate ships and the best caps.
what exactly is not to like?

(yeah, the legion sucks. sorry.)