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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2005.02.13 23:34:00 -
[1]
Can I get a 'Hell Yeah!' or a more moderate 'I Don't Want Your Stuff, I Can Make My Own Intel'
Burn the map!
As long as there is an allseeing eye there will be no Exodus.
Convert Stations
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2005.02.13 23:40:00 -
[2]
ratehr than asking for a nice cozy bonfire with the map as main attraction why not ask for a skill based map.
Skill lev 1: Get info on system you are in and ajoining ones, how many peeps are in this system, in stations and so on.
Skill lev 2: You get info on 5 systems out.
Skill lev 3: You get info on entire region as well as 5 systems into ajoining ones.
Skill lev 4: you get the region you are in and the entire ajoining regions.
Skill lev 5: Entire map.
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.02.13 23:45:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Fester Addams
ratehr than asking for a nice cozy bonfire with the map as main attraction why not ask for a skill based map.
Skill lev 1: Get info on system you are in and ajoining ones, how many peeps are in this system, in stations and so on.
Skill lev 2: You get info on 5 systems out.
Skill lev 3: You get info on entire region as well as 5 systems into ajoining ones.
Skill lev 4: you get the region you are in and the entire ajoining regions.
Skill lev 5: Entire map.
Nah.
Nuke the map and, if you go the skill route, it should never exceed more than 5 jumps.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2005.02.13 23:50:00 -
[4]
As is now we're in a 1 year holding pattern as I won't push for a move to 0.0 with the current features as I know the fraghags will descend upon us as locust from day 1.
Hoping every day CCP will realize the error of their ways, getting old in the process...
Convert Stations
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Selena 001
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Posted - 2005.02.13 23:56:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Fester Addams
ratehr than asking for a nice cozy bonfire with the map as main attraction why not ask for a skill based map.
Skill lev 1: Get info on system you are in and ajoining ones, how many peeps are in this system, in stations and so on.
...
I'm sorry... Do you not think we have enough crap to train at the moment, without you thinking of extra's for CCP to add? 
___________
*I only have 5 months left of 'knowing at all'... I had better put it to good use* |
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2005.02.14 00:02:00 -
[6]
Skills could be one way to go, however his solution was way too easy/drastic and would end up just another bandaid.
You don't have to learn every skill out there you know...
Convert Stations
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Elewin
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Posted - 2005.02.14 00:08:00 -
[7]
Already been mentioned b4 but also get rid of local!! or just have it if some1 speaks they appear.
Another solution would be depending on your standings with the npc controllers of the solar system they give inform you of things like
-When a player who is at war with you enters
-When a players with a negative standing enters system
etc. etc.
In 0.0 u wouldnt get anything thou, so just be safe in empire.
Just my opion
You can run, but you'd only die tired. |
Kiono Wakefield
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Posted - 2005.02.14 00:14:00 -
[8]
Agreed, the map give waaayyyyyyy to much info.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.02.14 00:15:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
As is now we're in a 1 year holding pattern as I won't push for a move to 0.0 with the current features as I know the fraghags will descend upon us as locust from day 1.
Hoping every day CCP will realize the error of their ways, getting old in the process...
Right. So you dont live in 0.0 and think you have some idea about how it works?
I live in 0.0 and the map is what protects me from the "fraghags". People who just like to randomly gank will (OMG) just move around randomly ganking. 0.0 space has very limted routes (even once past the "chokes") so it would be trivial to setup camps out in deep 0.0 with no map to warn people.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2005.02.14 00:18:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 14/02/2005 00:21:33
I know it's been mentioned before, I brought it up well over a year ago yet nothing has happened.
Everyone with half a brain can see this would be good for the game.
Oh and raptor I do think I've been in 0.0 enough to have an informed opinion.
Convert Stations
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.02.14 00:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: theRaptor
Right. So you dont live in 0.0 and think you have some idea about how it works?
I live in 0.0 and the map is what protects me from the "fraghags". People who just like to randomly gank will (OMG) just move around randomly ganking. 0.0 space has very limted routes (even once past the "chokes") so it would be trivial to setup camps out in deep 0.0 with no map to warn people.
Raptor, with respect, do you know how we find our kills? Do you know where 90% of our intel comes from, when it is working?
The map.
We see a 3 or 4 man blob in a system, we just send scouts straight there, no hassle, see what's up. Without the map do you think we'd bring our entire fleet 40 jumps without first sending a scout? How many scouts might we have?
Christ, the map makes ganking people EASY - yet those of us who rely on it so much are one of the most vocal groups that want rid of the damn thing - it gives us far too much information.
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Jorlin
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Posted - 2005.02.14 01:48:00 -
[12]
disclaimer: i'm just stating my own point of view. i don't claim to speak for any mayority!
Quote:
As long as there is an allseeing eye there will be no Exodus.
not sure why you think removing the map will make people venture into 0 sec.
do you think just because they have no information about recent kills or number of people in the systems they have to pass, will make them less "scared"?
like children closing their eyes because "what i can't see, can't hurt me"?
hmmm...don't think it would work.
i just like the empire. that's because i can log in and ask myself "now what i gonna do today? some missions, grab some minerals and produce something or do some ice mining (no, i don't actually even THINK about mining)?".
it's the same reason why i don't go skydiving, motorracing, speedskiing, bungee jumping or stuff like this...i don't need the kicks. i just need to relax...
don't get me wrong, i enjoy a little PvP now and then. i even think pirates are a necessarity in this game and so i won't go for the old "you just want more targets" argument.
- removing the map won't make me leave empire.
- removing the highways won't make me leave empire.
- removing the ice from highsec won't make me leave empire.
- removing agents from highsec won't make me leave empire.
- removing all ore won't make me leave empire.
- removing all NPC pirates won't make me leave empire.
but
- too many of the above combined would make me leave...the game
and noone would get my stuff then 
no police, no summons, no courts of law;
no proper procedure, no rules of war;
no mitigating circumstance;
no lawyers fees, no second chance! |
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.02.14 02:16:00 -
[13]
Edited by: theRaptor on 14/02/2005 02:19:14
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: theRaptor
Right. So you dont live in 0.0 and think you have some idea about how it works?
I live in 0.0 and the map is what protects me from the "fraghags". People who just like to randomly gank will (OMG) just move around randomly ganking. 0.0 space has very limted routes (even once past the "chokes") so it would be trivial to setup camps out in deep 0.0 with no map to warn people.
Raptor, with respect, do you know how we find our kills? Do you know where 90% of our intel comes from, when it is working?
The map.
We see a 3 or 4 man blob in a system, we just send scouts straight there, no hassle, see what's up. Without the map do you think we'd bring our entire fleet 40 jumps without first sending a scout? How many scouts might we have?
Christ, the map makes ganking people EASY - yet those of us who rely on it so much are one of the most vocal groups that want rid of the damn thing - it gives us far too much information.
And how does the 3-4 man blob fail to notice your blob? And also fail to notice your scouts in local?
Yes the map is no good to people that obviously dont use it (And who apparently dont check local either). But without the map you could just sweep through the major 0.0 systems (and most 0.0 has 2-3 gates per system) and kill everyone along the way.
Yes removal of the map will reduce alliance blobbing some what (though I think some cowards will still blob out of fear), but will make it very easy for a single group to decimate a single region.
Sure you might be able to hide a mining op in some backwater, but what good does that do you when gank patrols are sitting in wait in all the bottlenecks? For this scheme to work 0.0 would need a number of gates per system to be a lot close to empire.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.02.14 02:22:00 -
[14]
Im all for burning the map. I've already made a couple of posts with reasons and im too tired to bring em all up here again.
Let it burn and let people who work for it get the intel.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
Nero Scuro
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Posted - 2005.02.14 03:23:00 -
[15]
/me readies his blowtorch and burning-map-handling-gloves(tm).
----------------
Haha, stupid monkey! Now I'VE got the Oscar! Enjoy your worthless gun! |
Ardor
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Posted - 2005.02.14 03:24:00 -
[16]
I agree with theRaptor. I don't want to fly around blind in 0.0. Removing the map would only encourage more blobs with scouts around the blobs. Everyone else will be dead sooner or later.
A compromise would be a skill which allows to see pilots in space on the map for one more system around you for each level.
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myggan
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Posted - 2005.02.14 03:26:00 -
[17]
i remeber this ccp had a vote about it 1 1/2 year ago think 80% of eve said no to it
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ollobrains
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Posted - 2005.02.14 03:40:00 -
[18]
the other idea is hidden systems on the outer fringes - those skill levels would raise access to being able to see them. They could be new systems added by CCP - dunno its an idea to branch off this main problem i say yes keep the entire map visible - perhaps hidden starbases within the system that qould require skill levels to see ?
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Sorja
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Posted - 2005.02.14 04:04:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Sorja on 14/02/2005 04:06:33
Talking about 0.0 here (in Empire, no map would be fortune on a silver plate to griefers), the 'all blind everywhere' would wipe small groups of deep space, because who could gather the biggest blob would rake in kills at an incredible pace.
I fear it would lead to massive blobbage (which is already a major pain) and remove industrial corps from 0.0
It's already hard to find ammo, ships and modules up there, there would be no life nor trade left at all. Only the hardcore PvPers could survive, if they don't get disguted being out-blobbed everytime.
At best, that would lead to huge alliances against whom many people complain about already.
Last thing, it would be very hard to come back and forth to Empire solo when we need modules or simply want to sell our loot. I don't see me asking for an escort (which should be massive since the chokepoints would be camped to hell by people who can seek safety in Empire as soon as a their screen fills with ships) everytime I need to get through a chokepoint.
But, I'd like to be wrong. I really would like to. If the 'ganking attitude' could disappear, it would be for the better.
I just don't see how the 'no map no local' could help.
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hitech redneck
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Posted - 2005.02.14 04:06:00 -
[20]
keep the map as is.
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Cortex Reaver
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Posted - 2005.02.14 04:18:00 -
[21]
Pilots in-space/docked and the local user list needs to go away.
This came up for vote once, and the majority favored the idea, but the wording of the vote was confusing, so the majority voted against it.
-CR
/*
Cortex Reaver
crtxreavr at trioptimum dot com
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759
*/ |
mahhy
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Posted - 2005.02.14 07:38:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
As long as there is an allseeing eye there will be no Exodus.
Even without it there won't be. At least not on the scale we all seem to think CCP wants.
So you remove the "pilots in space" bit from the map. Now a whole load of Empire corps feel safe in venturing out into 0.0. Maybe small and mid sized corps. They bring a POS or two.
Now what?
Simple. The Alliance who claims the territory they've moved into will find them eventually. Removal of pilots in space isn't some magical "we're never gunna be found" panacea. It might take weeks or even months, but they will be found.
Then what? Yup, gank time. Or at least lots and lots of fighting. And with the coming of Dreads and Titans etc taking down a POS will be much more easily doable.
Personally I don't see much of a problem with a change to pilots in space, but I don't want a complete removal. Skills to get some of that information back, POS modules to allow territory claiming, etc have all been suggested before and are much better alternatives to simple removal. They add paths and abilities to the game, which is always a good thing.
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Lygos
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Posted - 2005.02.14 07:47:00 -
[23]
I think the map should be exchanged for something else but certainly the whole omniscience thing plays against risk management. A skill based solution is pointless.
What I'd rather see is the map be gone, but players can deploy anchorable watchtowers. If someone enters a system, that beacon sends a header line to the owner, or to the members of his corp. The beacons are findable and easy to destroy.
Options for the beacons: Give them limited range instead of system-wide monitoring. Or make them only report flagged individuals. Or have them only report ships passing through rather than owners. Or only a specific class or type of ships for the purposes of the owner (RP, or piracy, or fighter). Or put them on a timer to send a mail every 20 minutes with a list (if there is a list) of ships passing to the owner.
Beacons should fairly affordable, but require effort to maintain so that people can only operate a handful or less of them. (I am assuming devs are opposed to deployable objects for server limitations.) They can serve as a great distraction to a fleet because the destruction of one may not constitute an incursion but rather a decoy that needs to be investigated in order to regain a group's sight of the field.
If they have to be deployed in public spaces rather than at sortofsafespots then they will then be restricted to monitoring traffic in pocket constellations rather than major highways, where they would be annihilated casually.
Complexity is good.
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NaZguL
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Posted - 2005.02.14 08:33:00 -
[24]
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
As long as there is an allseeing eye there will be no Exodus.
Even without it there won't be. At least not on the scale we all seem to think CCP wants.
So you remove the "pilots in space" bit from the map. Now a whole load of Empire corps feel safe in venturing out into 0.0. Maybe small and mid sized corps. They bring a POS or two.
Now what?
Simple. The Alliance who claims the territory they've moved into will find them eventually. Removal of pilots in space isn't some magical "we're never gunna be found" panacea. It might take weeks or even months, but they will be found.
Then what? Yup, gank time. Or at least lots and lots of fighting. And with the coming of Dreads and Titans etc taking down a POS will be much more easily doable.
Personally I don't see much of a problem with a change to pilots in space, but I don't want a complete removal. Skills to get some of that information back, POS modules to allow territory claiming, etc have all been suggested before and are much better alternatives to simple removal. They add paths and abilities to the game, which is always a good thing.
POS modules for territory claming is a good idea , and nessesary , because without it alliances will never agree to map nerfing, but as long as the modules are nerfed enough its ok for me aswell, with the current map an alliance, can with ease control 100+ solarsystems just by looking at the map.
imo that makes the universe of eve many many times smaller then it realy is
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FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.02.14 09:52:00 -
[25]
Why not just impose a delay on the map data?
1.0 - Up to date...
...
0.5 - 5 mins out.
...
0.0 - 10 mins out.
ex P-TMC
If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
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Nomeshta
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Posted - 2005.02.14 10:09:00 -
[26]
I think removing the map features in 0.0 would just make its population reduce.
Already 0.0 players are complaining that the number of people inhabiting those areas are declining.
Making 0.0 blind won't change that.
- Caution: Ninja Fingers
WTB: Implants
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MadGaz
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Posted - 2005.02.14 10:12:00 -
[27]
Well if you removed it you'd have to have scouts constantly patrol, which I'm in favour of.
But then again I can't imagine being without it 
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.02.14 10:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: MadGaz
Well if you removed it you'd have to have scouts constantly patrol, which I'm in favour of.
But then again I can't imagine being without it
Thats why making that kind of info available as part of a POS / claiming territory function would be good. Also adding some small-effect skills would be nice too. Max a few jumps out sort of skills. That way when a fleet is moving around, the scouts can stay a few jumps ahead/behind and still be able to use SOME map information.
Nice sig btw 
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Kar Brogan
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Posted - 2005.02.14 10:31:00 -
[29]
I agree with the above, the amount of space an alliance can control should be the amount they can protect with patrols.The removal of the map would greatly reduce the power of the curent alliances to the point where a medium sized fleet would be required to effectivly cover a constellation, where as currently they can cover a whole region or more.
The idea of watchtowers is a good one, i personally would like to see more player created structures that are relativly cheep and can be easly destroyed, but rather than sending a message i think they should provide the current map functionality, but within a 2 or 3 jump radius.
If these 'watchtowers' were limited in their possible postions (such as the current POS which must be placed around moons), then it would give smaller corps the chance to launch a few strikes to take them out, set up their own, and go about their buisness with small safety margin.
As for the complaint that removing the map will allow blobbers to hit smaller groups by using scouts..if the smaller group was smart enough to send out a few scouts of its own, the approaching fleet could be detected.
Of course, people will not start moving out into 0.0 untill the choke points are gone, map or no map.
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Dloan
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Posted - 2005.02.14 10:40:00 -
[30]
Get rid of the map and impliment proper tools for gathering intel. Probes to detect incoming gate traffic or other things, scouts can relay information to the map for the alliance/corp, sensors to detect warp signatures so you can tell how many people passed by recently and what they were flying etc, warp distortion caused by many jumping ships can be detected x jumps ahead, stuff like that.
PvP in Eve is like looking for a needle in a haystack which is why choke points and gate camps are a necessity. Give PvP a whole new edge by giving players the tools for proper hunting and evasion.
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