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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
WarptuSon
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:39:00 -
[511]
 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many.
Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.)
It can't do trade-in's.
It can't do BPCs.
It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use.
It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.)
It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item.
But it will get better.
Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on.
So I presented our dilemma to them.
EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe.
And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle.
"Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?"
The CSM had one big question:
-Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in?
(The answer is no.)
They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money.
So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation.
Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out.
If we need to go even slower, we can and will.
I think you guys missed the fundamental point of everyone posting here.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion come from spray paint cans, which are produced using PI, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion an LP reward, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion a BPC drop from a mission, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
You are making the new 'skin' on the scorpion originating from a cash transaction only. Everyone has a problem. It is out-of-game creation.
Basically, there are a billions ways to seed a new skin for ship into the game. So I don't think you can legimately say you are trying to solve some irreconcilable issue to get new content to players.
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knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:40:00 -
[512]
Vanity items for sale only please. No to anything that game changes especially BPC's and BPO's.
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Marlona Sky
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:40:00 -
[513]
Originally by: Draco Llasa
Originally by: Marlona Sky
1. For one week, you will have: Insert money, get spaceship game! and pray, pray very hard that it actually stops after that one week and the flood gates don't open...
2. The CSM ok'd this. Bad CSM!
you are simply getting a skin, whats the harm.. as im sure its noted there is impact on production supplies and such long term if this is kept as a pay money for ship thing but assuming CCP hold to their word it wont be that way..
I personally (and i think others) support vanity items (even skinned ships) for AUR assuming the delivery method is right which ccp has acknowledged.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL... Let me guess, not going to read the previous 14 pages right?
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Mica Swanhaven
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:41:00 -
[514]
I'm glad you backpetaled csm. but can you least comment on this?
Quote:
"Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money.
It sounds like he was saying you guys were totally 100% ok with selling the ship for aurum for months... is CCP jsut talking out thier *** or did you guys really tell CCP to sell it for months?
and again thanks for listen to the playerbase/ your industry alts in your corp.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:41:00 -
[515]
Quote:
We all should just calm down and consult the meeting minutes from the CSM Summit which was in May to see what was actually said...
Because things said in May are forcibly going to be relevant and guaranteed to be done! Oh wait, wrong game.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:42:00 -
[516]
Originally by: Misha M'Liena
it's always a matter of reaching acceptable compromise.
Misha.
Why?
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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:42:00 -
[517]
Great, the CSM members who have stumbled blindly into this thread are now grasping at the thin thread of, "What's the harm?!"
I'll tell you what the harm is. You've acquiesced to the violation of THE core principle of the Eve economy .. everything is player-made.
Now you may be right that 1 week of Scorps for $$ will not impact the economy. But the problem is that the new principle is MT is ok if its "not that bad." And the really big problem is that there is NO definition of "not that bad" that cannot be exploited by CCP for the MT plans.
Ok, 1 week is not that bad .. how bout 2 weeks or 2 months? I mean really what's the damage, right? Or how about selling ships that people don't care about? I mean what's the damage, there are only 5 people who manufacture ship X ...
Where do you draw the line CSM?! You can't with any logical consistency now draw a line because the previous line (see core principle above) has been abrogated (Apologies CSM Vile Rat, that word may require some effort).
tl;dr
The precedent is set .. anything goes and will go now in re MT.
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knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:42:00 -
[518]
Edited by: knobber Jobbler on 14/06/2011 16:43:48
Originally by: Vile rat
Absolutely. Insert dollar = get scorpion is bad.
Get anything that isn't a vanity item = Bad. I really don't like the way this is going in general.
We've already seen how real $$$ can affect the outcome of major null sec wars. Lets not let legitimate RMT screw up everything else please.
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Vile rat
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:43:00 -
[519]
Originally by: A huge turd poster
Dear terrible CSM guy,
besides your duty is to bring OUR opinions to CCP and not yours, the following is a piece of crock:
Quote:
The ship is going into the client but you can't get it until they figure out a way to make this work without magically making scorpions out of thin air.
I opened a random LP store where I can trade in a regular ship + tokens + LP + whatever or even do the same for a BPC and I get a faction ship (= different model, skin and ID)
So what's so hard adding a LP store entry where you trade a scorpion + aurum + whatever and get a new one?
Dunno but this is a technical barrier they need to figure out before it's a mechanism that we'd support.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:44:00 -
[520]
Originally by: WarptuSon
I think you guys missed the fundamental point of everyone posting here.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion come from spray paint cans, which are produced using PI, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion an LP reward, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion a BPC drop from a mission, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
You are making the new 'skin' on the scorpion originating from a cash transaction only. Everyone has a problem. It is out-of-game creation.
Basically, there are a billions ways to seed a new skin for ship into the game. So I don't think you can legimately say you are trying to solve some irreconcilable issue to get new content to players.
want to sell classing on reading. No one has any issue with cash for paintjobs in this thread. It was never about paint jobs being an issue. It was about buying the whole ship with a different paint job for isk. More or less it was buy ship for cash.
But thankfully CSM have changed it so we don't have to worry.
CSM you should find a way to make a post to reach the great community. You know the people that won't read every single page? Maybe make a new thread? Make CCP publish a CSM dev blog about the issue and address the community at large? That or get a fireside chat up and running asap.
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Vile rat
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:46:00 -
[521]
Originally by: MotherMoon
CSM you should find a way to make a post to reach the great community. You know the people that won't read every single page? Maybe make a new thread? Make CCP publish a CSM dev blog about the issue and address the community at large? That or get a fireside chat up and running asap.
We're going to do this soon. We're just waiting for these damn minutes to be finished (argh!).
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Misha M'Liena
Amarr
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Eves Misguided Children
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:47:00 -
[522]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Misha M'Liena
it's always a matter of reaching acceptable compromise.
Misha.
Why?
The csm Selene said that.....My comment was uhh what. Sorry. i'll go edit again
Misha.
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Draco Llasa
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:47:00 -
[523]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Draco Llasa
Originally by: Marlona Sky
1. For one week, you will have: Insert money, get spaceship game! and pray, pray very hard that it actually stops after that one week and the flood gates don't open...
2. The CSM ok'd this. Bad CSM!
you are simply getting a skin, whats the harm.. as im sure its noted there is impact on production supplies and such long term if this is kept as a pay money for ship thing but assuming CCP hold to their word it wont be that way..
I personally (and i think others) support vanity items (even skinned ships) for AUR assuming the delivery method is right which ccp has acknowledged.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL... Let me guess, not going to read the previous 14 pages right?
18 now.. and now way.. its much more fun to spout out comments in the middle of a discussion and then walk away and watch everyone spin in circles arguing over semantics :)
on a serious note.. MTs are happening.. its a fact of life in teh gaming industry.. i think its good that CCP is willing to work with us to make it only vanity items..
as for the comments of representing the player base.. i beleive i am.. i feel that if a pool was taken of eve players (and not just the forum trolls) the majority of people (i know not all) would vote vanity items/ship skins for AUR is acceptable as long as the items sold do not change the balance of power in any way
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StillBorn CrackBaby
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:47:00 -
[524]
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Nobody is going to quit EVE because they couldn't get a navy paint job soon enough.
Are you kidding? I'll quit immediately if I can't get a new paint job. Geez some people... 
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WarptuSon
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:48:00 -
[525]
Originally by: Vile rat
Edited by: Vile rat on 14/06/2011 16:17:16
The ship is going into the client but you can't get it until they figure out a way to make this work without magically making scorpions out of thin air.
Huh? Did they forget how to their game works? wtf?
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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:48:00 -
[526]
Originally by: Vile rat
We're going to do this soon. We're just waiting for these damn minutes to be finished (argh!).
We could wait but really what's the harm with the playerbase thinking that you bent over for CCP and their MT $ grab?
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:49:00 -
[527]
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 14/06/2011 16:50:47
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: A huge turd poster
So what's so hard adding a LP store entry where you trade a scorpion + aurum + whatever and get a new one?
Dunno but this is a technical barrier they need to figure out before it's a mechanism that we'd support.
I'm not understanding the "technical barrier". The logic already exists. Copy/Paste + fiddle = win. The LP store is already a working, perfect model for the Aurum store. It's most disconcerting that there is some "barrier" which prevents them from doing such. I suspect the "barrier" is CCP wants direct cash for magic stuff. Please dissuade me from such a belief.
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Meissa Anunthiel
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:49:00 -
[528]
Originally by: WarptuSon
I think you guys missed the fundamental point of everyone posting here.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion come from spray paint cans, which are produced using PI, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion an LP reward, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion a BPC drop from a mission, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
You are making the new 'skin' on the scorpion originating from a cash transaction only. Everyone has a problem. It is out-of-game creation.
Basically, there are a billions ways to seed a new skin for ship into the game. So I don't think you can legimately say you are trying to solve some irreconcilable issue to get new content to players.
You missed the bus on this one, we already debated this issue at length.
Let me paraphrase a tiny bit the history:
CCP wanted to add microtransactions (ie, real cash for items).
CSM 5 went ballistic and said "no effing way".
CCP explained to the CSM that there are people who are willing to spend more cash on their hobbies.
CSM and CCP argued at length, in the end we reached a compromise and CSM 5 managed to change CCP's stance to only allow "vanity" items. ie, items that do not provide a competitive advantage, and as long as the core features are still available to all.
CSM 6, when presented with the first iteration of the item store (the one available on SiSi for testing at the moment), was very happy with the items provided and their quality, with the way they were provided and with CCP's plan for the future in that regard (more in the meeting minutes that are going to get released).
As far as the Ishukone Issue Scorpion was concerned (which, incidentally, we found very pretty), CCP announced that they wouldn't be able to redeem an existing scorpion with a golden one initially due to technical constraints. CSM answered we'd rather CCP wait until that technical issue was fixed. CCP asked if it was acceptable if the offer was only available for a short time (ie, a couple of weeks), we answered that, while we'd rather CCP wait, it could be acceptable.
This is the whole of it. Zinfandel misquoted us by mistake, he corrected his error, now let's all cool down a tiny bit... The end of the world is not coming.
-----
Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6
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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:50:00 -
[529]
Edited by: Yakov Pavlov on 14/06/2011 16:55:00
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: A huge turd poster
So what's so hard adding a LP store entry where you trade a scorpion + aurum + whatever and get a new one?
Dunno but this is a technical barrier they need to figure out before it's a mechanism that we'd support.
I'm not understanding the "technical barrier". The logic already exists. Copy/Paste + fiddle = win. It's most disconcerting that there is some "barrier" which prevents them from doing such. I suspect the "barrier" is CCP wants direct cash for magic stuff. Please dissuade me from such a belief.
To understand the sad state that Eve is currently in and the fumbling of every patch by CCP ... read this > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
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WarptuSon
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:50:00 -
[530]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: WarptuSon
I think you guys missed the fundamental point of everyone posting here.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion come from spray paint cans, which are produced using PI, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion an LP reward, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion a BPC drop from a mission, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
You are making the new 'skin' on the scorpion originating from a cash transaction only. Everyone has a problem. It is out-of-game creation.
Basically, there are a billions ways to seed a new skin for ship into the game. So I don't think you can legimately say you are trying to solve some irreconcilable issue to get new content to players.
want to sell classing on reading. No one has any issue with cash for paintjobs in this thread. It was never about paint jobs being an issue. It was about buying the whole ship with a different paint job for isk. More or less it was buy ship for cash.
you are being overly picky, the new skinned scorpion was obviously what i meant
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Maplestone
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:52:00 -
[531]
Originally by: Draco Llasa
you are simply getting a skin, whats the harm.
Is it a skin or a "shoot me" sticker? :)
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari
Sick Tight
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:53:00 -
[532]
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: WarptuSon
I think you guys missed the fundamental point of everyone posting here.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion come from spray paint cans, which are produced using PI, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion an LP reward, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion a BPC drop from a mission, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation.
You are making the new 'skin' on the scorpion originating from a cash transaction only. Everyone has a problem. It is out-of-game creation.
Basically, there are a billions ways to seed a new skin for ship into the game. So I don't think you can legimately say you are trying to solve some irreconcilable issue to get new content to players.
You missed the bus on this one, we already debated this issue at length.
Let me paraphrase a tiny bit the history:
CCP wanted to add microtransactions (ie, real cash for items).
CSM 5 went ballistic and said "no effing way".
CCP explained to the CSM that there are people who are willing to spend more cash on their hobbies.
CSM and CCP argued at length, in the end we reached a compromise and CSM 5 managed to change CCP's stance to only allow "vanity" items. ie, items that do not provide a competitive advantage, and as long as the core features are still available to all.
CSM 6, when presented with the first iteration of the item store (the one available on SiSi for testing at the moment), was very happy with the items provided and their quality, with the way they were provided and with CCP's plan for the future in that regard (more in the meeting minutes that are going to get released).
As far as the Ishukone Issue Scorpion was concerned (which, incidentally, we found very pretty), CCP announced that they wouldn't be able to redeem an existing scorpion with a golden one initially due to technical constraints. CSM answered we'd rather CCP wait until that technical issue was fixed. CCP asked if it was acceptable if the offer was only available for a short time (ie, a couple of weeks), we answered that, while we'd rather CCP wait, it could be acceptable.
This is the whole of it. Zinfandel misquoted us by mistake, he corrected his error, now let's all cool down a tiny bit... The end of the world is not coming.
Bolded the part where CSM has failed, and the reason we should NOT cool down at all.
Originally by: McKinlay
When you get on the batphone and the only people left in the phone book are Aeternus and BLAST it might be time to hang up.
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Draco Llasa
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:53:00 -
[533]
Originally by: Maplestone
Originally by: Draco Llasa
you are simply getting a skin, whats the harm.
Is it a skin or a "shoot me" sticker? :)
hopefully both :)
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Vile rat
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:54:00 -
[534]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 14/06/2011 16:50:47
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: A huge turd poster
So what's so hard adding a LP store entry where you trade a scorpion + aurum + whatever and get a new one?
Dunno but this is a technical barrier they need to figure out before it's a mechanism that we'd support.
I'm not understanding the "technical barrier". The logic already exists. Copy/Paste + fiddle = win. The LP store is already a working, perfect model for the Aurum store. It's most disconcerting that there is some "barrier" which prevents them from doing such. I suspect the "barrier" is CCP wants direct cash for magic stuff. Please dissuade me from such a belief.
I don't have to dissuade you from ****. They're holding off until they figure whatever 'it' is and that's fine with me. They either change it and we're sunshine/rainbows, or we're back to square one and it's something we will confront.
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Meissa Anunthiel
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:54:00 -
[535]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 14/06/2011 16:50:47
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: A huge turd poster
So what's so hard adding a LP store entry where you trade a scorpion + aurum + whatever and get a new one?
Dunno but this is a technical barrier they need to figure out before it's a mechanism that we'd support.
I'm not understanding the "technical barrier". The logic already exists. Copy/Paste + fiddle = win. The LP store is already a working, perfect model for the Aurum store. It's most disconcerting that there is some "barrier" which prevents them from doing such. I suspect the "barrier" is CCP wants direct cash for magic stuff. Please dissuade me from such a belief.
It doesn't currently exist in the aurum store (as far as I know, at least not for ships). Right now there's support for "give aurum, obtain item". Redeeming is not part of the process. And no, copy/paste is not applicable. It's almost never a case of "just 2 lines of code". What happens with fitted ships, or rigged ships, what happens if there's more than 1 ship on the stack, etc. Things are not necessarily as straightforward as they may seem, and even if they are, they still need to be coded, tested, deployed, etc. and that takes time.
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Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:56:00 -
[536]
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
You missed the bus on this one, we already debated this issue at length.
Let me paraphrase a tiny bit the history:
CCP wanted to add microtransactions (ie, real cash for items).
CSM 5 went ballistic and said "no effing way".
CCP explained to the CSM that there are people who are willing to spend more cash on their hobbies.
CSM and CCP argued at length, in the end we reached a compromise and CSM 5 managed to change CCP's stance to only allow "vanity" items. ie, items that do not provide a competitive advantage, and as long as the core features are still available to all.
CSM 6, when presented with the first iteration of the item store (the one available on SiSi for testing at the moment), was very happy with the items provided and their quality, with the way they were provided and with CCP's plan for the future in that regard (more in the meeting minutes that are going to get released).
As far as the Ishukone Issue Scorpion was concerned (which, incidentally, we found very pretty), CCP announced that they wouldn't be able to redeem an existing scorpion with a golden one initially due to technical constraints. CSM answered we'd rather CCP wait until that technical issue was fixed. CCP asked if it was acceptable if the offer was only available for a short time (ie, a couple of weeks), we answered that, while we'd rather CCP wait, it could be acceptable.
This is the whole of it. Zinfandel misquoted us by mistake, he corrected his error, now let's all cool down a tiny bit... The end of the world is not coming.
I feel like this post should be bumped.
Good job CCP for hearing what a fairly large portion of the player base is saying again.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:58:00 -
[537]
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Things are not necessarily as straightforward as they may seem, and even if they are, they still need to be coded, tested, deployed, etc. and that takes time.
But while we wait, we agreed that CCP should fundamentally break the core principle that makes the Eve economy what it is .. but only to test that breaking said principle is do-able and can be expanded in the future ... pathetic. |
Vile rat
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:58:00 -
[538]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
You missed the bus on this one, we already debated this issue at length.
Let me paraphrase a tiny bit the history:
CCP wanted to add microtransactions (ie, real cash for items).
CSM 5 went ballistic and said "no effing way".
CCP explained to the CSM that there are people who are willing to spend more cash on their hobbies.
CSM and CCP argued at length, in the end we reached a compromise and CSM 5 managed to change CCP's stance to only allow "vanity" items. ie, items that do not provide a competitive advantage, and as long as the core features are still available to all.
CSM 6, when presented with the first iteration of the item store (the one available on SiSi for testing at the moment), was very happy with the items provided and their quality, with the way they were provided and with CCP's plan for the future in that regard (more in the meeting minutes that are going to get released).
As far as the Ishukone Issue Scorpion was concerned (which, incidentally, we found very pretty), CCP announced that they wouldn't be able to redeem an existing scorpion with a golden one initially due to technical constraints. CSM answered we'd rather CCP wait until that technical issue was fixed. CCP asked if it was acceptable if the offer was only available for a short time (ie, a couple of weeks), we answered that, while we'd rather CCP wait, it could be acceptable.
This is the whole of it. Zinfandel misquoted us by mistake, he corrected his error, now let's all cool down a tiny bit... The end of the world is not coming.
I feel like this post should be bumped.
Good job CCP for hearing what a fairly large portion of the player base is saying again.
Slade
No I'd prefer we stick to outright insults and lunatic accusations. |
Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:59:00 -
[539]
Originally by: Vile rat
I don't have to dissuade you from ****.
Hmmm, with comments like this I'm not surprised we are where we're at. Perhaps in dealing with CCP you should learn the meaning and use of the word 'No'. It's pronounced nō. It means to refuse or to deny. |
Whim Aqayn
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:59:00 -
[540]
No microtransactions at all or I'm gonna unsubscribe in a heartbeat.
We all know that it's not going to stay reserved for vanity items only.
CCP will slowly sneak in items that affect the game just like all the other companies that used business model before.
I don't believe a word of what Zinfandel is saying. |
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