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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Indimiel	Posted - 2011.06.13 21:58:00 - [1] So it came up in the Alliance Tournament Discussion that they are going to sell ships directly for Aurum, which come from PLEXes, and so ships will appear directly from cash moneys and no player economy involvement. A lot of people seem to have strong opinions on the line which this may be crossing, so I figured it was important to put this in General Discussion, get it a bit more exposure. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel In this first version of the store, we don't yet have support for BPCs. Specifically, we can't tell the BPC how many runs it has on it. So we can't use that as a way to sell the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship. Right now our plan is to temporarily sell whole ships until this fall when we will switch to requiring a normal Scorpion as part of the price. BPCs would have worked too, if we could support that. The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders. So what do you guys reckon? It does say this is a temporary measure, but timing can get very easily muddled by a few years here and there.
Evelgrivion Gunpoint Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:03:00 - [2] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:03:04 There's nothing that I like about this feature. However, I'll suffer it so long as these ships are 100% identical in performance to the Tech 1 Scorpion. If those Aurum ships are ANY better than their Tech 1 counterparts, the whole game can go **** itself for putting money above the sandbox.
Jasdemi	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:09:00 - [3] Edited by: Jasdemi on 13/06/2011 22:09:36 Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:03:04 so long as these ships are 100% identical in performance to the Tech 1 Scorpion. If those Aurum ships are ANY better than their Tech 1 counterparts, the whole game can go ** itself for putting money above the sandbox. ------ "Phat Lewt Couriers" mailing list/channel for high value, low volume courier contracts**
Ayieka	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:13:00 - [4] Can we get a confirmation about this? this sounds a bit fishy.
Generals4	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:15:00 - [5] From what i understand here is what happens: You give a scorp + aurum and you get a scorp with a new skin. You can't buy a ship for aurum, you buy a new skin.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:17:00 - [6] Originally by: Generals4 From what i understand here is what happens: You give a scorp + aurum and you get a scorp with a new skin. You can't buy a ship for aurum, you buy a new skin. I'm so happy I have a thorax ready for this Originally by: Xenuria I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.
Lothros Andastar Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:18:00 - [7] Protip: You can buy ships for Isk, which comes from Plex, so you can buy ships for Dollars anyway.
rock crawlermne	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Ayieka Can we get a confirmation about this? this sounds a bit fishy. confirmed, fishy smell present....hey...MIILLIA, CLOSE YOUR LEGS.
Herping yourDerp	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:19:00 - [9] you trade a fully made scorpian, and some aurum and get a scorpian painted black... same stats, skills to fly, slots and eveything are the same. only difference is the color, and the text box when you look for info on it honestly, the only thing it does it make it a primary target. quit crying about it because nothing changes to how the game was years ago
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:20:00 - [10] Originally by: Lothros Andastar Protip: You can buy ships for Isk, which comes from Plex, so you can buy ships for Dollars anyway. Project it far enough and all women are ***s Originally by:** Xenuria I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Generals4 From what i understand here is what happens: You give a scorp + aurum and you get a scorp with a new skin. You can't buy a ship for aurum, you buy a new skin. So effectively what you are buying with the Aurum is a paint job? I think I read somewhere a dev saying ship skins would actually be separate new ships with their own item number and a separate entry in the secondary player market.
Evelgrivion Gunpoint Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:22:02 Originally by: Lothros Andastar Protip: You can buy ships for Isk, which comes from Plex, so you can buy ships for Dollars anyway. Dead wrong. Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is unacceptable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent cannot be allowed. The sandbox MUST NOT become second fiddle to Microtransactions!
Digital Messiah	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:24:00 - [13] Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 13/06/2011 22:09:36 Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:03:04 so long as these ships are 100% identical in performance to the Tech 1 Scorpion. If those Aurum ships are ANY better than their Tech 1 counterparts, the whole game can go ** itself for putting money above the sandbox. Quote:** Don't Panic
Pierced Brosmen Priory Of The Lemon	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:27:00 - [14] Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: Generals4 From what i understand here is what happens: You give a scorp + aurum and you get a scorp with a new skin. You can't buy a ship for aurum, you buy a new skin. So effectively what you are buying with the Aurum is a paint job? I think I read somewhere a dev saying ship skins would actually be separate new ships with their own item number and a separate entry in the secondary player market. Yes, bechause they haven't figured out a way to "apply paint-job" on the ships... also, that would be lost if you repackaged the ship. When converting the standard scorpion to a sperate ship model, the ship will retain it's paint job even when selling it on the market (cause that require you to repack it anyways).
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:27:00 - [15] Originally by: Generals4 From what i understand here is what happens: You give a scorp + aurum and you get a scorp with a new skin. You can't buy a ship for aurum, you buy a new skin. You're wrong, that's actually the long term plan. What CCP Zinfandel said on the AT9 panel saturday was that when the store launches, the new scorp model will be available for purchase with just Aurum. Eventually they'll let you use a scorp and less aurum, but for now you'll be creating ships from nothing. I'm of two minds about whether or not I should be raging about this. On the one hand, it's just a scorp, and I'm sure that it will actually work out to be MUCH more expensive (via isk->plex->AUR conversion) than the standard scorp. But on the other hand, bringing an item into existance with nothing but cash is. . . iffy.
Generals4	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:30:00 - [16] Edited by: Generals4 on 13/06/2011 22:30:56 Originally by: Mister Smithington Originally by: Generals4 From what i understand here is what happens: You give a scorp + aurum and you get a scorp with a new skin. You can't buy a ship for aurum, you buy a new skin. You're wrong, that's actually the long term plan. What CCP Zinfandel said on the AT9 panel saturday was that when the store launches, the new scorp model will be available for purchase with just Aurum. Eventually they'll let you use a scorp and less aurum, but for now you'll be creating ships from nothing. I'm of two minds about whether or not I should be raging about this. On the one hand, it's just a scorp, and I'm sure that it will actually work out to be MUCH more expensive (via isk->plex->AUR conversion) than the standard scorp. But on the other hand, bringing an item into existance with nothing but cash is. . . iffy. Hmm i thought i read otherwise before. Ah well that sucks. This could actually hit the mineral prices and reduce the importance of actually producing said ships.
Evelgrivion Gunpoint Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:32:00 - [17] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:32:18 Originally by: Mister Smithington I'm of two minds about whether or not I should be raging about this. On the one hand, it's just a scorp, and I'm sure that it will actually work out to be MUCH more expensive (via isk->plex->AUR conversion) than the standard scorp. But on the other hand, bringing an item into existance with nothing but cash is. . . iffy. This goes well beyond Iffy. This precedent undermines every single core principle on which the EVE Online sandbox is founded. Knowing how CCP thinks with some things, they'll treat any lack of outrage as tacit approval to never bother adding ship consumption or aurum for blueprints to the store. Hell, knowing CCP, they'll probably claim that they're free to add a bunch of ***ing SUPERCAPS* for Aurum in exchange for NOTHING!
Darod Zyree Gallente Zyree Holding	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:33:00 - [18] CCP STOP THIS, DONT HURT THE SANDBOX -Darod-
Vandrion Gallente The Collective	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:35:00 - [19] Linkage It goes deeper then just a painted scorp.......... That is the thread I posted in the Assembly Hall section of our forum. Take some time to read all the posts not just the first one.
Vandrion Gallente The Collective	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:40:00 - [20] If you don't want MT keep bumping the Official Feedback thread that has suddenly become a non-sticky. Keep it at the top! Give Me Monacles or Give Me Death Official Feedback Thread Matter of fact hit this one too: Say no to Micro-Transactions
Whim Aqayn	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:43:00 - [21] Would unsubscribe and not look back. Not much else to be said here.
Triple Entendre Atrocity.	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:43:00 - [22] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Originally by: Generals4 From what i understand here is what happens: You give a scorp + aurum and you get a scorp with a new skin. You can't buy a ship for aurum, you buy a new skin. I'm so happy I have a thorax ready for this Pink Thorax fleet is a go!
Generals4	Posted - 2011.06.13 22:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Triple Entendre Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Originally by: Generals4 From what i understand here is what happens: You give a scorp + aurum and you get a scorp with a new skin. You can't buy a ship for aurum, you buy a new skin. I'm so happy I have a thorax ready for this Pink Thorax fleet is a go! Golden Rokh's will reinforce that fleet.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:03:00 - [24] Originally by: Triple Entendre Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Originally by: Generals4 From what i understand here is what happens: You give a scorp + aurum and you get a scorp with a new skin. You can't buy a ship for aurum, you buy a new skin. I'm so happy I have a thorax ready for this Pink Thorax fleet is a go! Pen Island pride parade in the works methinks Originally by: Xenuria I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:08:00 - [25] Confirming this isn't a load of BULLSHT and doesn't screw around with the player run economy and Scorpion manufacturers will be over the moon to hear that people can just conjure up magical flying scorpions by handing over real life cash. CCP you incompetent ***s, how can you not see this is utterly broken. ~~~
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:08:00 - [26] The idea of ships being handed out in eve for real money is abhorrent to me. I am totally against this shortcut. I am totally against Micro-Transactions, everything in eve should be bought with isk/lp. Also the CSM should get some balls and refuse point blank to accept this. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Don Pellegrino Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:14:27 There's nothing that I like about this feature. However, I'll suffer it so long as these ships are 100% identical in performance to the Tech 1 Scorpion. If those Aurum ships are ANY better than their Tech 1 counterparts, the whole game can go ** itself for putting money above the sandbox. EDIT: Wait just a damn minute, there is NO EXCUSE not to make it consume a regular Tech 1 Scorpion in exchange for these ships!** I'm just going to quote this once again. No BPC exchange method, fine, but there's no reason not to consume a normal Scorpion in the process! ____________________________________________
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Don Pellegrino Wait just a damn minute, there is NO EXCUSE not to make it consume a regular Tech 1 Scorpion in exchange for these ships! Confirming that, if true, is is indeed horrid. Fix it. As in: yesterday. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Chris Fierce Caldari NoD Imperium	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:17:00 - [29] Another total waste of man hours. --------------------------- I gashmoygadied her gaflavity with my googus and won 500 mill.
Aquana Abyss	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:21:00 - [30] Start a boycott.... Thats one of the crappiest ideas CCP have had in years.
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:21:00 - [31] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:32:18 Originally by: Mister Smithington I'm of two minds about whether or not I should be raging about this. On the one hand, it's just a scorp, and I'm sure that it will actually work out to be MUCH more expensive (via isk->plex->AUR conversion) than the standard scorp. But on the other hand, bringing an item into existance with nothing but cash is. . . iffy. This goes well beyond Iffy. This precedent undermines every single core principle on which the EVE Online sandbox is founded. Knowing how CCP thinks with some things, they'll treat any lack of outrage as tacit approval to never bother adding ship consumption or aurum for blueprints to the store. Hell, knowing CCP, they'll probably claim that they're free to add a bunch of ***ing SUPERCAPS* for Aurum in exchange for NOTHING! While I don't think that would actually happen, I do see your point. "It's just a Nyx with a new paint scheme. The same ship already exists in game." Originally by: Triple Entendre Pink Thorax fleet is a go! You mean flesh colored right?
Nix Gravity	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:22:00 - [32] I can understand that the feature may not be fully ready, and the paint scheme BPCs aren't working properly, but I don't understand how the urge to get these out became a greater concern than damaging the fundamental nature of the sandbox by magicking in whole ships with no involvement from player industry. The way it's being released now doesn't sound so much as the code accidentally falling behind deadlines as a test to see how much outrage this brings about.
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:26:00 - [33] Edited by: Mister Smithington on 13/06/2011 23:26:19 Also, you guys realize that this is exactly what they're talking about with Dust, right? MT buys gear. As far as I've seen, it buys gear straight up, no BPCs or anything. I may be wrong, and you're welcome to correct me (please provide links), but it looks live the Eve universe as a whole is moving toward Dollars converting directly to equipment.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:27:00 - [34] /outrage
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:35:00 - [35] By the way, if we assume that the IW Scorpion does indeed work like a Scorp in every way, and simply has a flag to give it a different skin, and that all you have to do to get one is to shell out x AUR, can someone run some maths on how much the various minerals costs in real money?
San Severina Minmatar Autocannons Anonymous	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:39:00 - [36] Unfortunately this will be the end of EvE for me. I very disappointed with CCP. I love EvE but this kind of thing is always the begining of the end of a game & I don't want to watch EvE slide down the slippery slope of MT & F2P. I forecast bad times ahead for this game - I hope I'm wrong, but I have seen this before, it's a money grab & once the money grab starts the integrity of the game is gone baby gone.
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:40:00 - [37] BTW this is my post in the monocles or death thread, in case that vanishes, now its gone stale. Edited by: Soden Rah on 13/06/2011 23:39:03 I will NEVER pay anything extra other than my subscription for eve. The moment there is something worthwhile, or necessary that has to be brought through AUR... I leave. If dust doesn't work as a subscription game, then I am ok with that being MT based as long as it doesn't bleed into eve game play. I expect things like corp/alliance decals on ships to be brought for isk only. I expect the 'free' clothes range to expand (at a lesser rate than non free clothes perhaps), not shrink. And you should never, ever, ever, ever, be able to buy a ship for AUR. The shortcut you announced in the AT panel is not acceptable. The in game player economy is the bedrock of EVE... Break any one of those and I will be seriously displeased. If I get effected by any I will quit. No amount of advertising will make me change my mind and buy stuff in eve. Advertising in general ****es me off no end. If the reason as has been suggested for the loss of the station hanger is to try to encourage us to by vanity clothes... I want you to get the idea out of your minds because all it does is make me LESS enamoured with buying stuff. I really really really hate the idea that stuff is available in eve for anything other than isk. I don't care if it is just vanity items, if you can't afford to do everything at once... don't, pick something and do it well, then move on. EDIT: IF you really need extra cash, then a small increase in subscription cost, would be acceptable... What I think I like least about this is that there has been lots of stuff over the years about bringing out Incarna, and seeing avatars walking around in tech demo's, and talk about customisable quarters and corp meeting rooms and such, and even customised paint jobs on ships, and then you finally get to the point of being about to be able to implement it... and suddenly you say, "Oh and by the way, we can't afford to pay for people to make these, so we are going to charge you extra for them... And by the way, we have already invested some time and effort building the system for achieving this, and its already on the test server..." Not once did you really engage with us and say, hey you guys, it turns out making clothes and tattoos and custom paint jobs and quarters is more expensive than we thought... are you ok with a slower pace of development on them... or would you be prepared to pay more on your subscription... or vanity item only microtransactions.... You have spent years tempting us with visions of things we could have, if when they finally appear you are going to charge extra for them... I am sorry but I am not going to play ball.
Mitchello	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:42:00 - [38] Originally by: Nix Gravity I can understand that the feature may not be fully ready, and the paint scheme BPCs aren't working properly, but I don't understand how the urge to get these out became a greater concern than damaging the fundamental nature of the sandbox by magicking in whole ships with no involvement from player industry. The way it's being released now doesn't sound so much as the code accidentally falling behind deadlines as a test to see how much outrage this brings about. It's CCP. We've seen these methods of them over the years. Suffice to say that CCP would never commit resources to any of this if it had not already engaged on the road all the way. In a much, much more distant past that was different. But ever since they overstretched themselves with wildgrowth and multiple products with absence of practicality of vision or even roadmap that went out of the window. I'm sorry. I know there's a lot of good, great people working bloody hard on EVE, and on other products. Heck, in spite of a truly terrible reception of the presentation of Dust 514 at E3 (applause? mainstream media going silly - until CCP finally was able to off stage go one on one) I do think that Dust 514 is going to be not just interesting, but will have very solid potential. And that it will even feature a quality of product which EVE has not seen in years. But yeah, this is CCP. All presentation, little room for delivery. In spite of good people, and as we have seen over the years typically with the disconnect internally leaving staff untold of strategic realities. It's starting to feel again like the old days of CCP suffering from little kingdoms and stone tablets, giving in to emberassing doctrines like "if it looks good, it is good enough" and "lolcustomers". I have little doubt that the cost of Incarna is very tangible. And not just in terms of technical debt, no matter how well hidden. There's more than one type of debt in product and enterprise development. And each debt, has to be paid. But yes, most of the time by those who are more equal than a few.
IsoMetricanTaliac 2 Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.06.14 00:05:00 - [39] It is something I personally had hoped EVE would never do (Micro-Transactions that is). This is because of a few reasons, & whether the items it's selling are cosmetic or otherwise ATM we all know where it will end up. (Cosmetic items at first, things to give players an edge in the future. Saying they have said that won't happen has been heard before in other games & once they realise just how much extra $$$$$$ they can make that stand very quickly changes) With a game that is in as bad condition as EVE currently is I would have thought CCP would be pushing to make it cheaper to play for the majority of players, instead they are going to introduce yet another money making problem into the game that really does nothing for the actual game-play. How much of an extra load on the servers is all this stuff going to be? I mean it's bad enough as it is for lag & I would guess that adding more customized items to the game would only add load due to the extra rendering that will have to be done. Personally I would rather CCP put more effort into stamping out the RMT'ing or fixing the major issues the game has with Super Capitals ATM or any of the many other issues the game currently has. Instead they are just going to once again totally avoid doing anything about it & add more problems. (Ah well BP might be worth having a look at if EVE is just going to end up a money sink that doesn't work as advertised ) Anyway Micro-Transactions are a sad way for the game to go, we will see just how far it ends up going one way or another & if we don't like it we can always go spend our hard earned $$$$$ some other place! In a Time When Many Will Seek Death, There Will Always Be Those Like Me Who Won't Mind Helping Them Along Their Way!?!
Vandrion Gallente The Collective	Posted - 2011.06.14 00:07:00 - [40] Here is a part of one of my posts in this thread RL $$$$$ Altering Our Game.... Coming soon My thread mirrors a lot of what is being said here. Pop in and post how you feel. Keep the topic in front of the CSM. MT even vanity items are immersion breaking. The same can be said of selling modules in the MT store. You are removing the players and their connection to the game. Selling items in the MT store only is very immersion breaking in this regard. A player wasn't involved in the following: Training the skills to build the item Gathering the material to build the item Building the item Hauling the item to market Selling the item on the market Absolutely no inclusion for the player. Removing player inclusion in the process also removes the players ownership and sense of accomplishment in the results. Eve isn't about having an easy button. Eve is about reaping the rewards of your effort.
Entity X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence	Posted - 2011.06.14 00:08:00 - [41] Could not resist _ Got Item? \| EVE API? \| Cache?
Judicator Saturnius Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2011.06.14 00:09:00 - [42] vOv
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.14 00:13:00 - [43] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:22:02 Originally by: Lothros Andastar Protip: You can buy ships for Isk, which comes from Plex, so you can buy ships for Dollars anyway. Dead wrong. Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is unacceptable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent cannot be allowed. The sandbox MUST NOT become second fiddle to Microtransactions! Well, I guess that settles it :) I suggest CCP remove, revoke, and retroactively expunge all Alliance Tournament prizes, free ships, and all ISK associated with their sale. They do after all enter the game through non-conventional means.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 00:25:00 - [44] Originally by: Mars Theran Well, I guess that settles it :) I suggest CCP remove, revoke, and retroactively expunge all Alliance Tournament prizes, free ships, and all ISK associated with their sale. They do after all enter the game through non-conventional means. None of those replicate existing, identical ships that are created by the players and part of the market. In fact, the whole thing that makes those ships valuable and have any ISK value whatsoever associated with their sales is exactly because they cannot be recreated, either by the market or by $$$áfiat. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
HARKORD RANKIS	Posted - 2011.06.14 00:41:00 - [45] i dont care how its packaged, or whats required to get to get it as far as in game items when you start allowing players to buy items with real money than it no longer becomes a game that everyone can play equaly it becomes a game of who has the bigest pocket book. Then theres the simple fact that you end up with noobs being able to compete with players that have played for years to get the skills they have now just because of their pocket book. Once they game goes in this direction it will undermine what has made this such a great game
Bak Gam'on	Posted - 2011.06.14 00:46:00 - [46] I agree selling ships this way is just plain wrong. Temporary or not. I have voted... I voted with my account dollars, subscription cancelled (x2).
Zverofaust Gallente Incompertus INC Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2011.06.14 00:52:00 - [47] Originally by: Mars Theran Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:22:02 Originally by: Lothros Andastar Protip: You can buy ships for Isk, which comes from Plex, so you can buy ships for Dollars anyway. Dead wrong. Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is unacceptable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent cannot be allowed. The sandbox MUST NOT become second fiddle to Microtransactions! Well, I guess that settles it :) I suggest CCP remove, revoke, and retroactively expunge all Alliance Tournament prizes, free ships, and all ISK associated with their sale. They do after all enter the game through non-conventional means. Please don't forget the billions of isk spent both on applying to the tourney and on the many, many ships that have and still will blow up in said tourney.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:00:00 - [48] This decision is ridiculous, and I feel like a fool that I thought CCP wouldn't add real, game affecting items to EVE for real life money. I can clearly see where this game is going now, and I don't like it at all.
Speaker4 theDead	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:03:00 - [49] Are you kidding? $$ == GTC == ISK == SHIPS Etc..... People have been trading real money for isk for years, legally, under CCP's guiding hand. Why would you suddenly be shocked by the next logical step....
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:04:00 - [50] Originally by: Speaker4 theDead Are you kidding? $$ == GTC == ISK == SHIPS Etc..... People have been trading real money for isk for years, legally, under CCP's guiding hand. Why would you suddenly be shocked by the next logical step.... Why do people always say this? RMTs, while not something I'm very fond of, do not add anything to the game. MTs do. This is where the problem for me, and many others, lies.
GeoBlue	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:06:00 - [51] Wow, I would assume Skill Points for Plex, i.e. CASH will be next. This could get interesting fast.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:08:00 - [52] Originally by: GeoBlue Wow, I would assume Skill Points for Plex, i.e. CASH will be next. This could get interesting fast. The sky's the limit. I honestly thought it wouldn't come to this, but it turns out I was wrong. There's no stopping CCP with MTs now, and from a business standpoint, I can't blame them as they'll make CCP a ton of money. From a gameplay standpoint, this is enough to make me quit.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:10:00 - [53] Quote: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel In this first version of the store, we don't yet have support for BPCs. Specifically, we can't tell the BPC how many runs it has on it. So we can't use that as a way to sell the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship. Right now our plan is to temporarily sell whole ships until this fall when we will switch to requiring a normal Scorpion as part of the price. BPCs would have worked too, if we could support that. The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders. I sure hope this is a misquote, or Zinfandel is mistaken, if not ... I call this complete and total bull $hit. You, CCP, say you do not have support for BPCs, you can't tell the BPC how many runs it has on it? Just how the fck do copy labs work then? Is it magic? Maybe the MMO fairy comes down and puts digits on BPCs for the poor witless CCPers that are pi$$ing into fans. Do you really think we are that fcking stupid? So poof ships into the game for $cash, no one worked for it, no one had to buy the BPOs or the player made BPCs, train the skills to build it, mine the rocks, shoot the rats, dodge the griefers, play the 0.01 ISK game. And now from the Mars' and Oliva Barett's of the world we get this crap, "But it's just one little scorpion, what's the big deal? Besides, you can buy a scorp with ISK from PLEX!" ad nauseam. This is a fallacy. It's a white wash of the issue. Someone worked for that ISK to buy the PLEX off the market, someone worked to build that scorp, All of our collective efforts added value to that scorp, from the pirate that tried to flip the miners can, to the noob miner doing his first few runs at a roid with his frig, the industrialist with teeth running a lab on his low sec moon cranking out BPCs and mining moon pooh. All those people doing all those things added to the game. Poofing a ship into existence cheapens the entire game - all because you CCP are mysteriously and suddenly unaware of code that already exists in the source tree - Laughable. Turn up the heat slowly on the little froggies in the pan, maybe they won't notice the temperature is rising. Perhaps my subscription will not work until this Fall because I have forgotten how to not click the cancel subscription button. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Vice Admiral Spreadsheet	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:13:00 - [54] Originally by: GeoBlue Wow, I would assume Skill Points for Plex, i.e. CASH will be next. This could get interesting fast. Hello. We already have skill points for cash. Simply buy some PLEX with cash, sell the PLEX for ISK, then buy a few +5 implants.
Katrina Cortez	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:14:00 - [55] Edited by: Katrina Cortez on 14/06/2011 01:16:01 "In this first version of the store, we don't yet have support for BPCs. Specifically, we can't tell the BPC how many runs it has on it. So we can't use that as a way to sell the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship. Right now our plan is to temporarily sell whole ships until this fall when we will switch to requiring a normal Scorpion as part of the price. BPCs would have worked too, if we could support that. The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders." "To clarify, the Ishukone Watch Scorpion and the standard Scorpion have exactly the same functionality. Exactly." quote in thread by CCP Zinfandel
Manda Rin Minmatar Sexy Thoughts	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:17:00 - [56] Originally by: Lady Spank Confirming this isn't a load of BULLSHT and doesn't screw around with the player run economy and Scorpion manufacturers will be over the moon to hear that people can just conjure up magical flying scorpions by handing over real life cash. CCP you incompetent ***s, how can you not see this is utterly broken.
Syphon Lodian Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:18:00 - [57] You can buy ships with money already. People keep acting like PLEX is sacred, and that Aurum is the first step introducing physical money into EVE. It's not. I don't see this ever becoming an issue. PLEX is a larger issue. There are people that spend hundreds of dollars to maintain their fleets, and to recuperate from losses. Completely negating the point of having a competitive economy in EVE. Even so, it's not much of a problem. People will do what people will do. If not PLEX, they'd just buy from farmers.
Syphon Lodian Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:21:00 - [58] Also, isn't "Aurum" being introduced because it wouldn't make sense to use ISK to buy clothing and accessories, and paintjobs, because Interstellar Kredits are phenomenally valuable, so much that a planet-plebe cannot hope to gain even 1 ISK in their entire lifetimes? So there is Aurum, some sort of superficial side-credits. Kind of useful scapegoat though, but it fits within the lore, sort of. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:21:00 - [59] Edited by: Nullity on 14/06/2011 01:22:00 Originally by: Syphon Lodian You can buy ships with money already. People keep acting like PLEX is sacred, and that Aurum is the first step introducing physical money into EVE. It's not. I don't see this ever becoming an issue. PLEX is a larger issue. There are people that spend hundreds of dollars to maintain their fleets, and to recuperate from losses. Completely negating the point of having a competitive economy in EVE. Even so, it's not much of a problem. People will do what people will do. If not PLEX, they'd just buy from farmers. PLEXes add nothing to the game. MTs do. Originally by: Syphon Lodian Also, isn't "Aurum" being introduced because it wouldn't make sense to use ISK to buy clothing and accessories, and paintjobs, because Interstellar Kredits are phenomenally valuable, so much that a planet-plebe cannot hope to gain even 1 ISK in their entire lifetimes? So there is Aurum, some sort of superficial side-credits. Kind of useful scapegoat though, but it fits within the lore, sort of. Correct me if I'm wrong. Don't kid yourself. Aurum is being introduced because MTs are the way to go if you want to make money with video games now (sadly). Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet Originally by: GeoBlue Wow, I would assume Skill Points for Plex, i.e. CASH will be next. This could get interesting fast. Hello. We already have skill points for cash. Simply buy some PLEX with cash, sell the PLEX for ISK, then buy a few +5 implants. One adds skillpoints through in-game methods. Even buying a PLEX to get ISK for implants uses in-game mechanics because the ISK used for the PLEX came from someone who made it legitimately in the game. It wasn't spawned into existence because you bribed CCP.
Evelgrivion Gunpoint Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:24:00 - [60] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 14/06/2011 01:26:18 Originally by: Syphon Lodian You can buy ships with money already. People keep acting like PLEX is sacred, and that Aurum is the first step introducing physical money into EVE. It's not. I don't see this ever becoming an issue. PLEX is a larger issue. There are people that spend hundreds of dollars to maintain their fleets, and to recuperate from losses. Completely negating the point of having a competitive economy in EVE. Even so, it's not much of a problem. People will do what people will do. If not PLEX, they'd just buy from farmers. The mistake that is made by everyone who holds this position is that they don't understand that a PLEX does not create anything; it is subsidized account time. Its value in ISK is tied to how much player game time they're willing to subsidize in exchange for ISK. Money is not generated by PLEX; money is generated by players which goes into the hands of PLEX sellers. No game mechanics are bypassed in this process to create the money; PLEX is a mechanism through which someone can delegate playing the game to somebody else. When CCP sells ships like these shiny Scorpions in exchange for Aurum, game mechanics are bypassed completely. Nobody bought a blueprint, nobody mined minerals, and nobody spent time in game to acquire the ship outside of however long it took them to navigate the menu and enter their credit card information. If you don't need other players to get what you want, what need is there for the sandbox? THAT is the precedent that is set with decisions like this. There is absolutely no reason to push this system out before it's ready. Nobody is going to quit EVE because they couldn't get a navy paint job soon enough.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:28:00 - [61] Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet We already have skill points for cash. Simply buy some PLEX with cash, sell the PLEX for ISK, then buy a few +5 implants. Bull $****. Where did the ISK come from? Someone had to go out and earn it? Where did the implants come from? Someone had to go out and earn them. PLEX allows someone to purchase ISK for $Cash. That ISK was earned by someone. A direct purchase of SP for $Cash is in no way like buying implants. A $Cash purchase of SP would be like buying a month worth of not having to sit in a station and spinning a ship, of not adding to the community, of not going out and mixing it up with the griefers and the scammers and the carebears and the rats. Might as well bring down the console and type -GodMode. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:28:00 - [62] Originally by: Syphon Lodian You can buy ships with money already. You're missing the point here. It's not that you can get your hands on a ship by getting an PLEX, and trading it for ISK and then for a ship. It's that, if those report are to be believed, you can spawn ships by getting a PLEX (through the AUR store). There is a very important difference between the two. Now, whether or not it is true that you can get the IW Scorp without paying a normal Scorp for it remains to be seen, but if true, that's a wrecking blow to the market right there. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Judicator Saturnius Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:29:00 - [63] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Might as well bring down the console and type -GodMode. To be fair, you'll also have to input credit card information. vOv
Clair Bear Ursine Research and Production	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:29:00 - [64] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Do you really think we are that fcking stupid? Yes, and you know what? They are right. CCP has always proceeded on the assumption that their customers are drooling morons, and it has been the correct thing to do. The growth in subscriber numbers and revenue is the end result, and you can't deny that's a good thing for the game. Look at it this way: plenty of people will correctly maintain that the contents of your wallet and your hangar are not what makes you a good player in eve. So nothing much has changed, except possibly lower income for gold farmers. Ok, so some game content (production & manufacturing) may get slightly nerfed by making a tiny portion of the eve economy credit card rather than player driven. Seriously, no big. There were and are much bigger game issues to rage against. And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question?
Vice Admiral Spreadsheet	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:30:00 - [65] THE SKY IS FALLING! Every player in EVE will only fly Scorpions now! OH NOEZ
cyclobs Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:31:00 - [66] i knew this would happen, and when it does. No more eve for me! **** you CCP.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:31:00 - [67] Originally by: Judicator Saturnius Originally by: Adunh Slavy Might as well bring down the console and type -GodMode. To be fair, you'll also have to input credit card information. And that's why I'm not a CCP dev I suspect, I forget that part. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Evelgrivion Gunpoint Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:32:00 - [68] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 14/06/2011 01:34:26 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Syphon Lodian You can buy ships with money already. You're missing the point here. It's not that you can get your hands on a ship by getting an PLEX, and trading it for ISK and then for a ship. It's that, if those report are to be believed, you can spawn ships by getting a PLEX (through the AUR store). There is a very important difference between the two. Now, whether or not it is true that you can get the IW Scorp without paying a normal Scorp for it remains to be seen, but if true, that's a wrecking blow to the market right there. Exactly. What reason is there for CCP to push this system, as it is, before they're ready to make sure that the mechanics of the sandbox are maintained? The only motivation that explains this behavior is greed; greed that will destroy the mechanics of the game for a short term cash out. EVE could last forever, but it seems that certain factions in CCP are far more interested in sucking the marrow from EVE Online's bones before moving on to Emo Vampires: The MMO. The pattern matches the business practices of their chief shareholders and main board of director members, Novator and Catalyst Productions, pretty well. What happens to EVE after CCP destroys it? Electronic Arts already has a member in CCP's board of directors. I'm sure they'd love to buy their own MMORPG IP for a song.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:34:00 - [69] Originally by: Clair Bear Originally by: Adunh Slavy Do you really think we are that fcking stupid? Yes, and you know what? They are right. Sadly you might be right. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Cognito Ergosum Amarr Vulkan Schiffbau und Maschinenfabrik AG	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:35:00 - [70] Well this sucks. Part of the reason I've stuck with EVE for so long was that the sandbox was closed--we created all the stuff that died. And now that doesn't seem important anymore. Really, if paintjobs were the big drive why not use an existing mechanism like the LP store? Want a Kador Family skinned Apoc, runs some 4's and trade in a normal Apoc. Want to make a killing on the market sell that Apoc to people who won't mission grind. Isn't that how things used to be? Am I mis-remembering? Monocles and hats I couldn't care about; don't mess with the ships CCP. (Optimistically hoping that anyone from CCP cares anymore)
Judicator Saturnius Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:36:00 - [71] Edited by: Judicator Saturnius on 14/06/2011 01:36:51 I hearby declare this incident ~scorpion~ uh.. -gate. vOv
Clair Bear Ursine Research and Production	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:37:00 - [72] Oh, for those of you without calculators: a scorp runs 57.5 million buy order price in jita. For various reasons including freetards buy orders for ships in jita are going to be exactly their value in minerals. A PLEX currently brings in 385x2 = 770M and costs $35. I'll solve the word problem for you: you can buy ( 770/57.5 ) = 13.39 scorpions for $35, which makes each scorp worth $2.61. Unless the navy scorps are like a buck a pop there's fairly little to worry about considering how few I expect get sold. And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question?
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:43:00 - [73] Originally by: Clair Bear Originally by: Adunh Slavy Do you really think we are that fcking stupid? Yes, and you know what? They are right. CCP has always proceeded on the assumption that their customers are drooling morons, and it has been the correct thing to do. The growth in subscriber numbers and revenue is the end result, and you can't deny that's a good thing for the game. Look at it this way: plenty of people will correctly maintain that the contents of your wallet and your hangar are not what makes you a good player in eve. So nothing much has changed, except possibly lower income for gold farmers. Ok, so some game content (production & manufacturing) may get slightly nerfed by making a tiny portion of the eve economy credit card rather than player driven. Seriously, no big. There were and are much bigger game issues to rage against. Because T1 production is crap anyway, so let's let people pay for them with a pretty new skin and they'll forget all about that stupid rebalancing idea. amidoinitrite?!
Obsidian Hawk RONA Legion RONA Directorate	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:46:00 - [74] Guys we are looking at this the wrong way. Let all those rich kids buy those special ships. Then lets just sit outside jita and suicide gank anyone who undocks in one. Epic kill mails for us. money for ccp to fix the game. everyone wins, cept the guys who honestly use plex / aurum to buy the damn things initally.
Syphon Lodian Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:49:00 - [75] Reply to multiple posters. Fair enough. I didn't see it like that, which is mostly true. Nothing is spawned on a PLEX sale other than someone losing their own money. It doesn't make sense either, that they say they're pushing the Scorpion sale-feature through, without the need for having a Scorpion (player created/bought) to acquire the new one. I think it's pretty clear they're just testing the waters. As it wouldn't make sense to just push it through, and like someone else said, no one is going to cry because they can't get a painted ship immediately. So they're testing the waters. Maybe they need to justify and recoup on their EVE fanfest costs because someone spent all the ticket sales on cokayne.
Eklesiastico	Posted - 2011.06.14 01:54:00 - [76] Edited by: Eklesiastico on 14/06/2011 01:56:02 This is disheartening. They can't talk about immersion while selling ships-for-cash at the same time.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:02:00 - [77] The issue here is the scorpion wasn't built by a player. who cares if it's the same stats wise, building ships is what keeps the whole economy together.
Vice Admiral Spreadsheet	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:07:00 - [78] Quote: Right now our plan is to temporarily sell whole ships until this fall when we will switch to requiring a normal Scorpion as part of the price. How many players will buy more expensive Scorps with a different skin? Not many. How hurt will EVE's economy be? Not at all.
Entity X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:13:00 - [79] Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet Quote: Right now our plan is to temporarily sell whole ships until this fall when we will switch to requiring a normal Scorpion as part of the price. How many players will buy more expensive Scorps with a different skin? Not many. How hurt will EVE's economy be? Not at all. The problem is that CCP is willingly opening the pandora's box that is conjuring up non-cosmetic items for real money. Whether it is temporary, has many sales, or what amount of damage it will do is irrelevant. The mere fact that they are willing to breach the boundary is what worries people. _ Got Item? \| EVE API? \| Cache?
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:13:00 - [80] Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet ... temporarily ... Then they can temporarily not add it to the game instead of causing permanent mistrust and skepticism from the player base. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Hostile Poosey	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:14:00 - [81] I say bring it on. The game is already utterly infested with bots and RMTs, and you raise hell because CCP, the company that CREATED EVE, wants to make some money? Last i checked things like the new bot detection progs (for lack of a better word) And more GMs to deal with the days (sometimes weeks) long petition queue cost money. I read a day or so ago that it seemed like 90% of the playerbase was against change of ANY type. I'm starting to see the logic in that. The company has to grow, or it will die. period. I find it hilarious. Thank you for the laughs. /emote pulls out a smoke Flame away, i need a light anyway.
Zangorus	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:18:00 - [82] **** ME
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:21:00 - [83] Originally by: Hostile Poosey The game is already utterly infested with bots and RMTs, and you raise hell because CCP, the company that CREATED EVE, wants to make some money? No. We are raising hell because CCP, the company that created EVE is clumsily, and apparently accidentally RAZING EVE. Both those parts are bad: that they're destroying parts of the game and that they're doing it because they're not thinking clearly. If they want to make some more money, they're more than welcome. If they ruin the game while trying to do so, they will not only fail make that money, but also lose out on the regular, steady income stream they've established over the yearsà Just because this is probably a classic case of Hanlon's razor doesn't mean that they shouldn't get an earful for it. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:23:00 - [84] As always, forum overreaction. This is not that big of a deal. Sure, there will be emorage quits, pig sqeals, and what not. But the sky will not fall. Is the change good? IMO, no, it does nothing for game play. Will this bankrupt the Eve market? I highly doubt it will dent or even scratch it. But yes, I'll agree that all CCP needs to do to save the whole 3 cent profit margin on the Scorpion (oh noes ) is to require a standard Scorpion. But meh. Keep freaking out like headless chickens. It's what we do best anyway. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Linda Shadowborn Gallente Dark Steel Industries	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:28:00 - [85] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Hostile Poosey The game is already utterly infested with bots and RMTs, and you raise hell because CCP, the company that CREATED EVE, wants to make some money? No. We are raising hell because CCP, the company that created EVE is clumsily, and apparently accidentally RAZING EVE. Both those parts are bad: that they're destroying parts of the game and that they're doing it because they're not thinking clearly. If they want to make some more money, they're more than welcome. If they ruin the game while trying to do so, they will not only fail make that money, but also lose out on the regular, steady income stream they've established over the yearsà Just because this is probably a classic case of Hanlon's razor doesn't mean that they shouldn't get an earful for it. ^^ as an industrialist i am horrified that they even stopped to think "hey lets just ** over all the people that mine/build/invent and just hand out stuff for real cash" Way to ** up CCP! You already have the mechanic in place for taking one ship and making it a new (LP store!). this is BS! if this goes through.. bye
Panda Name Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:30:00 - [86] Edited by: Panda Name on 14/06/2011 02:33:55 if this is true, then i support the outrage. this rage won't be merely expressed out of political ideals, such as the rage expressed in threads regarding something like jump bridges - this is universal rage. please say it ain't so. edit: i just reread the OP. if this is merely for a ship re-skin, and nothing more, then i say it's acceptable but will still fear what this kind of thing implies. hopefully ccp uses restraint, and implements this system for simply reskinning, or adding corp logos. nothing more, or it will be the end of us all.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:35:00 - [87] CCP needs to provide a detailed and believable timetable for when the store will be fixed so as to allow the proper consumption of scorpion hull, and a promise that this will be a priority issue.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:36:00 - [88] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 pig sqeals As soon as the pants come off... Originally by: Xenuria I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.
Kerrisone	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:38:00 - [89] CCP corporate/decision makers are to be congratulated on their efforts to keep turning players against them and their products. The only reason to push this kind of crap mechanic 'temporarily' is to test it, to see how players feel about it and more importantly how they respond to it cash wise. If the issue is the code isn't done yet and you have actual 'values' when it comes to your product, the player economy, and player concerns about this kind of crap then you DON'T push it out broken or as a 'test'.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 02:39:00 - [90] Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 14/06/2011 02:42:36 Originally by: Hostile Poosey The company has to grow, or it will die. period. No one that is reasonable will deny CCP's right to increase its revenues. No one that is reasonable will allow CCP to pi$$ on them and let CCP tell them it is raining. For all CCP's boasts about being an innovative company, one of their main rationales for adding MTs is, to not get behind the curve. It is a contradiction, though perhaps a reasonable one in some respects, however it dilutes both statements when it comes to perception. There are so many other innovative ways that CCP could increase their revenue other than slobbering on the butterfly wings of the sandbox, instead they choose MTs and to follow the crowd. This is not a game for many, including myself, it is a hobby. Like any hobby, most of the fun is in the creation, not the finished product. Once your model ship is done, it's done. All over. MTs are altering the very nature of the hobby. Instead of enhancing the creative aspects, MTs detract from the creative aspects. They take potential creativity away from the enthusiast and give it to $Cash. It makes the entire experience that much less satisfactory because there are now shortcuts built into the system. All of the creative potential and enthusiasm of the player base would have been an ample source of revenue for CCP, it would have been a very innovative approach to adding to their bottom line. Instead they choose the less innovative approach and seem to be choosing the path of the sheep. By the way, it's raining. Umbrella for sale, 2 Aurum. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:04:00 - [91] Edited by: Nullity on 14/06/2011 03:04:15 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab CCP needs to provide a detailed and believable timetable for when the store will be fixed so as to allow the proper consumption of scorpion hull, and a promise that this will be a priority issue. We've sunk so low that now fixing the MT shop is a "priority issue". I seriously want to know how EVE got to this point.
Reed Tiburon Caldari Future Corps Sleeper Social Club	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:05:00 - [92] Originally by: Cognito Ergosum Well this sucks. Part of the reason I've stuck with EVE for so long was that the sandbox was closed--we created all the stuff that died. And now that doesn't seem important anymore. Really, if paintjobs were the big drive why not use an existing mechanism like the LP store? Want a Kador Family skinned Apoc, runs some 4's and trade in a normal Apoc. Want to make a killing on the market sell that Apoc to people who won't mission grind. Isn't that how things used to be? Am I mis-remembering? Monocles and hats I couldn't care about; don't mess with the ships CCP. (Optimistically hoping that anyone from CCP cares anymore) This. Terrible idea, CCP. Rethink.
Machete Visor	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:08:00 - [93] Can you buy aurum (whatever) for isk? If so, I dont see the problem Mine, sell, buy aurum, buy new scorp No different than all the transactions in this game - aurum is just an intermediary commodity If you can only get aurum by $$ - well, yeah, that is a bad move I guess some purists would say eve should be able to function at 100% even if no one bought another plex. Even in ny first example, this ship skin concept would violate that rule
Vandrion Gallente The Collective	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:15:00 - [94] Originally by: Machete Visor Can you buy aurum (whatever) for isk? If so, I dont see the problem Mine, sell, buy aurum, buy new scorp No different than all the transactions in this game - aurum is just an intermediary commodity If you can only get aurum by $$ - well, yeah, that is a bad move I guess some purists would say eve should be able to function at 100% even if no one bought another plex. Even in ny first example, this ship skin concept would violate that rule You can only get Aurum from cashing in Plex. Plex comes from a GTC GTC comes from RL $$$$$$ You can buy the plex off the market with the ISK you mined for.You can cash that Plex in for Aurum. You can use that Aurum to purchase the MT item. The problem is that the process of making the ISK is bypassed completely by grabbing Daddy's Visa and buying GTC for Aurum. The other problem is that MT of any type excludes the player from the actual steps involved with creating said item. In essence someone is using daddy's Visa to spawn in game items with no effort and no creation process. This doesn't immerse a player into the Eve world it executes the Eve world.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:27:00 - [95] Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 03:29:00 The important thing to remeber here is players would be just as ****ed off if you could buy ships from NPCs with just pure isk, or pure LP. It's not right, and it's f'ed up. there is no mining, science, research, or building. It's more or less an NPC store if they give out non-vanity items without consuming something a player built. i hope players can stay on rack so CCP will listen and reverse this choice. I mean how does it take ot code the thing to take ships as payment? a week of work by 2 guys?
Judicator Saturnius Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:27:00 - [96] I'm intrigued by this module "daddy's visa," and would like a further description of it's usage/capabilities. vOv
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:30:00 - [97] This, if I understand it correctly, is an extraordinarily bad precedent.
Ivbeen Cloned	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:31:00 - [98] Can someone please explain to me how spawning a "special" scorpian and selling via a MC does not affect actual scorpian builders? Correct me if I'm wrong but from my viewpoint it affects the actual scorpian builders more than it affects anyone else in game. This can be said for all items being sold in stores that have an identical item that is produced by players. I'd like to hear from anyone who disagrees with this... This move by CCP is complete bull****, I'm fine with you paying for some stupid paint job on an item that you purchased with isk, paying for the actual item is not acceptable.
Vandrion Gallente The Collective	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:33:00 - [99] Edited by: Vandrion on 14/06/2011 03:37:02 I am cross posting this from my Assembly Hall thread. One of the CSM has replied twice. Give the thread a good read. It is worth your time and directly ties into alot of concerns expressed in this thread. It also exposes a different side of the MT issue involving Dust and it's impact on the Eve universe. I would love to hear what the CSM has to say about the MT issue especially considering the quotes and links I will provide below. CSM--- Look at all the threads regarding MT. Look at the 52 page threadnaught in response to the Dev Blog on MT. Look at the thread in this forum where almost 80% of the responders don't want MT at all. The Eve community needs you to be our voice. I qoute CCP Shadow from the PS3 blog on Dust514: "Hi Vorlord. DUST 514 wonÆt have a monthly subscription like a number of MMOs. DUST 514 will have virtual goods sales though, that allow you to buy various types of gear used in combat." "Hey Shoryukenll, YouÆve asked a few things I canÆt delve too deeply into, but what I can comment on is what you said about virtual items and real money. DUST 514 will support purchases made through both in-game earned currency and real money currency." Hmmmmm........ DUST514 is supposed to be tied into OUR Eve universe so now $$$$ for game changing items is one step closer...... http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/06/06/introducing-dust-514-a-persistent-shooter-from-ccp/ Qouted from the Beginnings Blog on the Dust514 site: "DUST 514 will, as EVE Online does, have a dynamic virtual economy and market that offers the tools that will give you a competitive edge, when used skillfully. Players are able to purchase different gear to equip before deploying into battle, using InterStellar Kredits (ISK), the in-game earned currency of the EVE universe, or through real money currency, called Aurum (AUR). This provides players with flexibility and adaptability in how they approach a combat scenario. Certain items are only available through ISK transactions, while others are only available through AUR. These are then traded freely on a player-driven secondary marketplace." So... CCP is including AUR in DUST which further ties it into Eve and explains why CCP isn't listening to the feedback from the players. CCP also clearly states that AUR is purchased with RL money........ There should be absolutely ZERO arguments that AUR comes from anything other then RL cash money...... Monacles today. Game altering gear tomorrow!!!!! http://www.dust514.com/en/news/?article=1980 "RPS: So, if IÆm an EVE player, how is my game going to change after DUST is released? Torfi: Well, you have the ability to be more strategic when you are conquering planets and solar systems, in nulsec. Those are the main touchpoints. Highsec carebears need not worry. The same for lowsec. The main touchpoint upon the launch of DUST, will be in nulsec, will be in sovereignty, will be in inflicting damage and destruction and death upon your enemies, destroying their infrastructure and their means to survive, either by means or scorched earth or by stealing their installations on the surfaces of planets. There will be more going on on the surfaces of planets. WeÆve introduced mechanics allowing people to manufacture goods on the planets, but planets will play a more pivotal role in sovereignty mechanics further down the line." Snippet of the RPS interview on Dust 514 So not only will the dust players spend RL cash to buy an advantage in their game, they will be using that RL cash purchase to buy an advantage in OUR sov warfare. This is why a lot of us don't want MT of any form in Eve. Our concerns do not matter as CCP has already planned the future and it is RL cash transactions to buy an advantage........ *** Linkage for the threadnoughts MT Dev Thread MT Vote Thread ****
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:33:00 - [100] Originally by: Ivbeen Cloned Can someone please explain to me how spawning a "special" scorpian and selling via a MC does not affect actual scorpian builders? Correct me if I'm wrong but from my viewpoint it affects the actual scorpian builders more than it affects anyone else in game. This can be said for all items being sold in stores that have an identical item that is produced by players. I'd like to hear from anyone who disagrees with this... This move by CCP is complete bull****, I'm fine with you paying for some stupid paint job on an item that you purchased with isk, paying for the actual item is not acceptable. It would be like the LP store giving out republic fleet tempest, without requiring a tempest in the trade. hopefully no one will reply to your point since there is no way someone could disagree with you
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:37:00 - [101] Originally by: Machete Visor Can you buy aurum (whatever) for isk? If so, I dont see the problem The problem is that without that Scorp trade-in requirement, the shop is spawning player-made equipment and material out of thin air. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:40:00 - [102] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Machete Visor Can you buy aurum (whatever) for isk? If so, I dont see the problem The problem is that without that Scorp trade-in requirement, the shop is spawning player-made equipment and material out of thin air. again thought keep in mind even if it only cost isk for this new item, and real money wasn't involved at all. it would generate just as much rage. It has no place i eve. it has nothing to do with it being a MT item.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:54:00 - [103] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Machete Visor Can you buy aurum (whatever) for isk? If so, I dont see the problem The problem is that without that Scorp trade-in requirement, the shop is spawning player-made equipment and material out of thin air. again thought keep in mind even if it only cost isk for this new item, and real money wasn't involved at all. it would generate just as much rage. It has no place i eve. it has nothing to do with it being a MT item. That's not true. I don't think most people care about vanity items. It's the fact that the MT shop is spawning game affecting items that people care about.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:56:00 - [104] Originally by: Nullity That's not true. I don't think most people care about vanity items. It's the fact that the MT shop is spawning game affecting items that people care about. Well, perhaps. But MotherMoon is quite correct: the actual damage done would be just as large regardless of the currency ù virtual or not ù used to spawn those ships out of nowhere. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 03:59:00 - [105] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Nullity That's not true. I don't think most people care about vanity items. It's the fact that the MT shop is spawning game affecting items that people care about. Well, perhaps. But MotherMoon is quite correct: the actual damage done would be just as large regardless of the currency ù virtual or not ù used to spawn those ships out of nowhere. Oh, I misread his/her post. That is partially true that if it just used ISK to magically generate the Scorpion, it'd still produce rage.
syphurous Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:02:00 - [106] So when will I be able to buy my Jedi with all his force power trained ? ( if it is not produced in EVE, I dont want it in Eve ) Most people will read this thinking it's part of my post, when its actually my sig :P
Darth Khasei	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:02:00 - [107] Terrible decision CCP. You cannot do this without consuming a tech 1 ship. Stop breaking our sandbox please.
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:06:00 - [108] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Mars Theran Well, I guess that settles it :) I suggest CCP remove, revoke, and retroactively expunge all Alliance Tournament prizes, free ships, and all ISK associated with their sale. They do after all enter the game through non-conventional means. None of those replicate existing, identical ships that are created by the players and part of the market. In fact, the whole thing that makes those ships valuable and have any ISK value whatsoever associated with their sales is exactly because they cannot be recreated, either by the market or by $$$áfiat. Actually, there has been an ongoing argument that no ships, particularly those which cannot be purchased on market, or made by players most of all, should be available through MT. I'd quote but it's a waste of time, and there are far to many responses of that nature if you bother to read. Not only in this thread, but in the multitude of others that have been put up since CCP announced the Ishukone Scorp, and some from before even that. I can't say I agree with the Ishukone Scorp being sold for another 6 months without requiring an injection of a stock Scorp from EVE either. At very least, for every sale, CCP could buy one of the market, trash it, and continue on; or just remove the Scorp from the store entirely until they can get whatever doesn't work working. that being said, I believe CCP has their own reasons for doing this, and it's likely to measure Market impact or some other obscure thing that we are not currently aware of as it's none of our business. I wouldn't cancel my Sub over this though, yet.. I already cancelled my Sub 3 months ago.
Ren Nekk Dead Eye Dogs	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:08:00 - [109] If the quote from CCP Zinfandel is accurate, it is really unbelievable. I guess I'm stupid, but I came to believe Aurum really would be restricted to vanity items, at least for a long while. Of course selling "whole ships" is not restricting it to vanity items. Gah. CCP does a half-assed job with lots of stuff, and that is mostly fine with me, but surely their implementation of MT is not the time or place for such, no matter how "temporary" it is supposed to be. Also, wtf CSM?!
Ranita Drell	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:10:00 - [110] Edited by: Ranita Drell on 14/06/2011 04:15:07 If true, I agree that this sets a terrible precedent. What gets me is that there seems to be an acknowledgment on CCP's part that this sort of thing compromises the integrity of the game/sandbox, because they claim to eventually want to have the exchange require the consumption of aurum plus the normal-skinned version of the ship ... ... but instead of waiting until the feature is actually done and ready to be implemented in a way that is in harmony with their purported design philosophy, they're going to rush the feature out in an incomplete state because ... well, I guess for the sake of the PLEX sales they'll be making in the interim. Of course, the defense CCP would probably give for this decision would probably be put in terms of "releasing an imperfect but still functional/desirable feature sooner rather than for the enjoyment of our players." I think this argument is of dubious merit when coming from a company with a reputation for allowing old bugs and features to languish for months and years on end without much-needed attention, and again: because this particular feature has implications for the integrity of the game and CCP as a company, it would be prudent for CCP to hold itself to a higher standard in this case.
Lemony Goodness	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:14:00 - [111] This is horribly stupid. This feels like T20 all over again with different stripes. Spawn game items outside of game mechanics that can effect everyone else in game. Explain again to me CCP why this shouldn't bother me? And an auram is worth 115,000 Isk? So if I buy an eye patch for 1 auram it is worth more than a destroyer? Seems Isk is about to become chump change and auram the new standard. Does that seem right? Shouldn't there be a few thousand aurams in 1 Isk? Well, any interest I had with Incarna is now totally gone. If this goes live, then I am through. Been an interesting five years. Don't do this CCP.
cerbus Aliastra	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:16:00 - [112] lololololol For now they'll all be predesigned (if not forever). Its the easiest way to do this without ruining the Eve Art Direction and for actual programming time; they already had this scorpion model created so I'd say that would be one of the reasons why it was first. it has begun
Dr Sodius	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:16:00 - [113] Edited by: Dr Sodius on 14/06/2011 04:16:21 i told you so... http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1517440&page=43#1279
EightGuns Giovanni	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:17:00 - [114] CCP provides expansions free of charge to its subscribers.[77] Over time expansions have added features such as conquerable stations, ship classes like Freighter and Dreadnought capital ships and advanced missions for players to master. Apocrypha, included an overhauled probing system, wormholes and customizable Tech 3 ships as its major features.[78] ......with microtransaction incoming am I playing the right game?? Cause the "store" has content which I have to pay more for than current sub cost.
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:23:00 - [115] Originally by: Zverofaust Originally by: Mars Theran Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:22:02 Originally by: Lothros Andastar Protip: You can buy ships for Isk, which comes from Plex, so you can buy ships for Dollars anyway. Dead wrong. Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is unacceptable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent cannot be allowed. The sandbox MUST NOT become second fiddle to Microtransactions! Well, I guess that settles it :) I suggest CCP remove, revoke, and retroactively expunge all Alliance Tournament prizes, free ships, and all ISK associated with their sale. They do after all enter the game through non-conventional means. Please don't forget the billions of isk spent both on applying to the tourney and on the many, many ships that have and still will blow up in said tourney. Billions of ISK that gets handed back to the winner, (Do the ships cost the Alliance ISK or Points), public showcasing of their Alliances which helps to increase their reknown, and ships which have a combined value after sale of 1,250,000,002,000 ISK (Estimated)
Doc Fury Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:26:00 - [116] Originally by: Dr Sodius Edited by: Dr Sodius on 14/06/2011 04:16:21 i told you so... http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1517440&page=43#1279 Confirming that lots of players pointed out this kind of thing would be coming in the aforementioned thread. Seems the slope is steep enough now I can hear the wind in my ears. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:28:00 - [117] Damn!! Even I would fly that Thorax.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:31:00 - [118] Hmmà if my calculations are correct, if that ship costs ~500 AUR, I can use it to get infinite¹ ISK. ¹ àfor a limited definition of infinite ù until the mineral and PLEX orders run out. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Katmande	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:35:00 - [119] Totally unacceptable. Do not implement the ships until you can do it RIGHT. I take it none, of the CSM are ship builders, hence they do not think it will hurt the ship builder. Yikes, are they really looking out for the players interest here? IF CCP is going to mess with the EVE ecomony and not have all functional items work through the normal market. EVE is not the sandbox game I want to play.
EightGuns Giovanni	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:37:00 - [120] The real question is ...How many of the SWG devs are now working for EVE?
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:43:00 - [121] Edited by: Mars Theran on 14/06/2011 04:51:00 Edited by: Mars Theran on 14/06/2011 04:50:01 How do you propose they introduce all these cool new textures, (to replace mostly awful textures like on all current versions of the Thorax), through the player driven economy? Give us BPO's that can be used to build them is about the only way I can think of, and that doesn't cover the costs of introducing all the new art assets, which is their reasoning behind making it a MT in the first place. Explanation at least; I don't know why they are actually doing it. I have a suspicion that maybe they actually do need the MT store to introduce additional--player interest--content into the game. As far as functionality goes, any new content of that sort is really of no use to the in game economy, and has no effect on any actual gameplay except: "Oooh! Pretty Colors!! " I also have a sneaking suspicion that there will be virtually no impact on the in game economy as it is pretty much already fubar'd edit: Actually, I figured out why CCP is doing it this way, (most likely, or at least a good reason anyway).
Tamahra Gallente Apina. United Pod Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:50:00 - [122] Originally by: Nullity Edited by: Nullity on 14/06/2011 03:04:15 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab CCP needs to provide a detailed and believable timetable for when the store will be fixed so as to allow the proper consumption of scorpion hull, and a promise that this will be a priority issue. We've sunk so low that now fixing the MT shop is a "priority issue". I seriously want to know how EVE got to this point.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2011.06.14 04:54:00 - [123] there is literally no reason this 'feature' needs to go live in a half-assed fashion, everyone will survive for three months without a bling'd out scorpion. The potential economic damage from misuse of this is pretty catastrophic. Fix it and launch it right like you promised, CCP. _____________________ Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're on a forum, with the alt your alt could post like.
Tamahra Gallente Apina. United Pod Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 05:01:00 - [124] Edited by: Tamahra on 14/06/2011 05:01:53 Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet ... temporarily ... Then they can temporarily not add it to the game instead of causing permanent mistrust and skepticism from the player base. yeah, f.uck you ccp!
Dalketh	Posted - 2011.06.14 05:16:00 - [125] Great.... CCP goes back on their word and the supposed new 'CSM' fails and let's everyone down. Why am I not shocked? CCP is offering some new skin to a magically appearing ship so important you break your word from inception? We all though that would take at least a year for you to do. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel ...The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders.
ilammy Red Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.14 05:22:00 - [126] Edited by: ilammy on 14/06/2011 05:25:03 If this is true, I'm just waiting a devblog with some excuses like 'You know CCP is a growing company, and the company can't survive without increasing its profits. By doing a thorough research, consulting with CSM, we introduce this long-expected new feature, which was being so widely supported by the community'.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 05:52:00 - [127] Originally by: cerbus For now they'll all be predesigned (if not forever). Its the easiest way to do this without ruining the Eve Art Direction and for actual programming time; they already had this scorpion model created so I'd say that would be one of the reasons why it was first. it has begun Nice pics but holy christmas trees make em smaller :) The Real Space Initiative - V7
Nozomi nrvqsr The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva	Posted - 2011.06.14 05:55:00 - [128] Goodbye CCP. Eve could have been so much more. But you lose yourself ages ago.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.06.14 05:58:00 - [129] Originally by: Evelgrivion The mistake that is made by everyone who holds this position is that they don't understand that a PLEX does not create anything; it is subsidized account time. Its value in ISK is tied to how much player game time they're willing to subsidize in exchange for ISK. Money is not generated by PLEX; money is generated by players which goes into the hands of PLEX sellers. No game mechanics are bypassed in this process to create the money; PLEX is a mechanism through which someone can delegate playing the game to somebody else. How is this any different from buying isk online? Some bot had to create that isk too. If it was a hacked account that hacked person also had to earn that isk. I told you all that plex was the start and here is that slippery slope everyone was talking about. I lost the will to play back as plex started..the same time as every profession in eve became a waste of time. I don't want to put all my hard earned money into some game tbh. If I'm forced to in order to compete I also will quit. CCP might not care but you wont be back stabbing me thats for sure. Eve is a niche game and this should be clear to every one. CCP underestimates the value of their loyal player base and I can see this going really bad for them. And I'm not going to sit here and take them to court through the csm or endless discussions on the forums.I will simply stop playing (and paying) and enjoy another game. They know our point of view and they will do as they please one way or the other anyways. Thing is that eve has a very special player base. This game is not action packed...it has no to die for state of the art gfx nor does it have anything else games now a days have. I wasn't able to get any of my friends to play eve..no matter how hard I tried they quit within a month. You have to see eve as the little world it is and love it for that. This will never be a game that competes with others on the market..which is why it lives.It has no competition. At the same time..you wont please any one with eve but the people that fill the niche now. Sell as much cool stuff (rmt) as you want to get the rest of the gaming world in eve online but it will do you no good as they will lose interest looking for that action packed game with state of the art gfx,sound and gameplay. Screw over the players in eve and they better hope wod or dust 514 works out for them.
Sarmatiko	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:13:00 - [130] Edited by: Sarmatiko on 14/06/2011 06:14:18 Hamsters in this thread are soo funny and stupid, I just can't stop laughing It's like with AT9 prize giveaway when people who can't read but can only repeat previous message bumped topic with rules with wrong answers till 37 pages Ishukone Scorpion stats is just the same like normal Scorpion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlt5VhTCN4Q Quote: With its focus on electronic warfare, few ships can resist the direct onslaught of the Ishukone Watch Scorpion-class battleship's jamming capabilities. Traits 15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range per level 20% Bonus to ECM Burst range per level Details This variant of the Scorpion represents the pinnacle of the Ishukone paramilitary force's electronic warfare capabilities. Development When Ishukone Watch was commissioned to produce a run of Scorpion-class battleships for its parent company, it was decided that a number of extra units would be offered to the capsuleer community to help fund the effort. Interestingly, the entire project took less than one year from start to finish, suggesting at some degree of urgency in the fleet's production. Technology Though the typical Scorpion-class battleship includes a highly advanced sensor package, Ishukone Watch modifies their ships for policing duty around their worlds. Custom multispectral radiation scanners designed to catch all forms of planetary and extra-planetary communications replace the standard comms suite. Special LADAR and thermal imaging equipment allow Ishukone Watch ships to serve as a distant eye-in-the-sky for planetary security forces. Although these features are stripped out before decommissioned hulls are placed on the open market, the infamy of the Ishukone Watch still makes ships popular with independent ship buyers. Notes Many wonder why Ishukone Watch would produce a massive run of electronic warfare battleships, especially with sensor suites fine-tuned to detect planetside signals. Some have speculated that these ships were intended to support a larger, multinational fleet. Regarding the mass production of these ships, Ishukone Watch CEO Eborimi Shiskala praised her parent corporation with an "incredible dedication to the Ishukone doctrine of technological superiority." And I don't give a damn about manufacturers who cant think and adapt to the market. If they start whining about temporary selling of the whole ship in aurum shop then they are just idiot manufacturers who always sell items to buy orders or ruin prices with stupid actions. 1. Scorp isn't popular so much to ruin Scorpion market with this for 2-3 month. 2. Ishukone Scorpion will cost much more than simple scorpion just like any item from new aurum shop. Those who use scorpion in every day battles will buy cheap scorpions anyway or build them for own use. 3. Idiots can stop crying and leave. Market health will only win without these people.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:19:00 - [131] Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 06:20:40 Quote: Sarmatiko So you;re in full support of adding shuttles back to NPC shops? Your ok with the NPCs selling tech 1 and tech 2 gear? I mean the hell with the players producing the stuff, it's easier if an mmo just has an NPC market you buy stuff off of! I mean it's not like the economy in eve is important, you press buy, you get something. that's all that goes into it! edit: to clarify Buy scorp for isk isk to plex to aurum reprocess ship into minerals with max skills. create new artificial price cap for all minerals. derp
Duchy Duke	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:20:00 - [132] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 14/06/2011 02:42:36 Originally by: Hostile Poosey The company has to grow, or it will die. period. No one that is reasonable will deny CCP's right to increase its revenues. No one that is reasonable will allow CCP to pi$$ on them and let CCP tell them it is raining. For all CCP's boasts about being an innovative company, one of their main rationales for adding MTs is, to not get behind the curve. It is a contradiction, though perhaps a reasonable one in some respects, however it dilutes both statements when it comes to perception. There are so many other innovative ways that CCP could increase their revenue other than slobbering on the butterfly wings of the sandbox, instead they choose MTs and to follow the crowd. This is not a game for many, including myself, it is a hobby. Like any hobby, most of the fun is in the creation, not the finished product. Once your model ship is done, it's done. All over. MTs are altering the very nature of the hobby. Instead of enhancing the creative aspects, MTs detract from the creative aspects. They take potential creativity away from the enthusiast and give it to $Cash. It makes the entire experience that much less satisfactory because there are now shortcuts built into the system. All of the creative potential and enthusiasm of the player base would have been an ample source of revenue for CCP, it would have been a very innovative approach to adding to their bottom line. Instead they choose the less innovative approach and seem to be choosing the path of the sheep. By the way, it's raining. Umbrella for sale, 2 Aurum. Amen
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:22:00 - [133] Originally by: Sarmatiko Ishukone Scorpion stats is just the same like normal Scorpion Yes? Have you been paying attention? This is not the issue. Quote: And I don't give a damn about manufacturers who cant think and adapt to the market. Again, have you been paying attention? The problem is that this ship completely ignores the market. It bypasses every single mechanic that lets people adapt. People cannot adapt to it because it doesn't play by the market rules. It circumvents miners; it circumvents manufacturers; it circumvents blueprint researchers; it circumvents builders; it circumvents traders. All of these things are deeply damaging to the very core mechanic of the game. Quote: If they start whining about temporary selling of the whole ship in aurum shop then they are just idiot manufacturers No, it means they are seeing the whole picture, unlike you. Quote: 1. Scorp isn't popular so much to ruin Scorpion market with this for 2-3 month. Irrelevant. This thing lets you bypass the whole item creation process of the game and the markets that build on that process. Quote: 2. Ishukone Scorpion will cost much more than simple scorpion just like any item from new aurum shop. Irrelevant. This thing lets you bypass the whole item creation process of the game and the markets that build on that process. Quote: 3. Idiots can stop crying and leave. Then please stop crying and leave. Quote: Market health will only win without these people. No it cannot, because this thing will still be there and fundamentally destroy the market mechanics. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Prince Kobol	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:24:00 - [134] Personally I'm not worried about this. The way I see it in most cases this will happen Person buys Ishukone Watch Scorpion with RL Cash. Then they will undock.. station spin for a while in fear that they will get ganked and lose said ship that cost them rl $$$ or they will use the ship for PvE and will then get ganked for lol's Either way these ships will be a bigger target then a tasty T3 with faction mods simply because everybody will know that they have paid rl $$$ for it. I cant wait until somebodies pays rl $$$ for a ship and then it is ganked within minutes of undocking and then comes on the forums crying demanding that CCP gives them another ship for free because it was their ship that they paid for :) I do see and agree with what people are worried about thou, as in what else are CCP prepared to add into the cash store. Those people who have and still do play Lotro will appreciate this as Turbine has now gone back on the promise they made about adding items in store that do not give a player an advantage. Everybody knew it was going happen sooner or later and it now has. There is only so much money that can be made by selling cosmetics
Dogo Duma	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:25:00 - [135] Quoting briefly from another forum. This discussion struck me as remarkably similar. Original author lives on Failheap-challenge these days, so I am sure he can be safely written off as a "bitter vet" which as a distinctly present & active core userbase segment obviously has no relevance other than "lolcustomer" even though roughly 4 distinct persona types fall either in that category or exhibit massive symptomatic similarities to it (something which does not happen overnight btw). Quote: This discussion of MicroTransactions is uncanny similar to discussion about Credit Default Swaps and other Financial Innovations(TM), with all the usual suspects: You have your "Financial Geniuses" (CCP), motivated by short-term financial gain, introducing new complex financial instruments. With a few good men definately, but those are mostly busy cleaning up after or before those who quite simply don't care to understand what they market anymore. Few Smart Economists are up in arms, explaining how MTs (CDS) are terrible idea and how they can (and will) wreck the whole economy since CCP unfortunately has no history which provides trust in its statements (as every time they say one thing, even let staff man the walls, and then do another thing anyway). You have your Financial Regulatory Institutions (CSM), who are wined and dined by Bankers (CCP) and have no authority to do anything because their chairman only cares about having the back of his own buddy banker. You have your supporters of MTs / Free Market Zealots, who cannot see the danger because they are blinded by "free market" ideology. "CCP is business, they can do whatever they want, any attempt to regulate them is Communism! And screw the poor who cannot afford to pay $$$ for monocles!" And you have the rest of the general public: "Herp derp pencil skirts!" The biggest irony is CCP being in Iceland of all places, which arguably suffered the most because of "Financial Innovation" by bankers. And instead of learning to apply the lessons from real life, they go head first, despite the warnings, doomed to repeat the same mistakes that devastated the economy of their own country, only in virtual world this time. While I can't fully agree with the analogy, it is a remarkable one, where even in this thread the behaviour portrayed sofar fits rather well in.
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:29:00 - [136] Oh god. If you can reprocess the IW scorp, you can use dollars to create anything from nothing. wtf. Yeah, this is unacceptable and I'm officially raging.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:32:00 - [137] Originally by: Mister Smithington Oh god. If you can reprocess the IW scorp, you can use dollars to create anything from nothing. wtf. Yeah, this is unacceptable and I'm officially raging. Woah, my mind is totally blown Takes hit off bong Originally by: Xenuria I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.
Sarmatiko	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:36:00 - [138] Originally by: Tippia blah blah whine blah Ok you can keep crying in this thread because your stupidity is unstoppable by common sense. I will just play the game and make money on people who can't use their brain even for simple task of thinking
handige harrie	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:37:00 - [139] Lol CCP, no words to describe how stupid this is. Really, you've outdone yourselves. Were did the times go that developers made games because they loved making games instead of this LOOOOL CASH GRAB TIEM?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:39:00 - [140] Originally by: Sarmatiko Originally by: Tippia blah blah whine blah Ok you can keep crying in this thread because your stupidity is unstoppable by common sense. I will just play the game and make money on people who can't use their brain even for simple task of thinking you're so dense it's painful. How is buying minerals for cash ok?
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:42:00 - [141] Originally by: handige harrie Lol CCP, no words to describe how stupid this is. Really, you've outdone yourselves. Were did the times go that developers made games because they loved making games instead of this LOOOOL CASH GRAB TIEM? Even that is missing the point. CCP is going to be more financially stable by delivering a quality product. If they take shortcuts and **** up their product, no one's going to want to buy it.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:43:00 - [142] Originally by: Mister Smithington Originally by: handige harrie Lol CCP, no words to describe how stupid this is. Really, you've outdone yourselves. Were did the times go that developers made games because they loved making games instead of this LOOOOL CASH GRAB TIEM? Even that is missing the point. CCP is going to be more financially stable by delivering a quality product. If they take shortcuts and ** up their product, no one's going to want to buy it. Shortcut? I've been waiting since about 2008 for this Originally by:** Xenuria I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.
Scott Ryder Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:44:00 - [143] The main question is; Who wants my stuff when I quitses?
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:48:00 - [144] Originally by: Sarmatiko And I don't give a damn about manufacturers who cant think and adapt to the market. If they start whining about temporary selling of the whole ship in aurum shop then they are just idiot manufacturers who always sell items to buy orders or ruin prices with stupid actions. 1. Scorp isn't popular so much to ruin Scorpion market with this for 2-3 month. 2. Ishukone Scorpion will cost much more than simple scorpion just like any item from new aurum shop. Those who use scorpion in every day battles will buy cheap scorpions anyway or build them for own use. 3. Idiots can stop crying and leave. Market health will only win without these people. Well, one day when we hear of a nullsec system which was saved from invading forces by the denziens simply respawning in station and producing infinite quantities of IW scorpions to jam the enemy fleet into submission, we'll know you were wrong. Any reprocessible item being made available through the MT store without any input apart from ISK/PLEX/Aurum is placing a cap on the value of the mineral basket obtained by reprocessing that item, and going against the theme of the rest of the game which is the player driven economy. There will be no more sieges, no more driving corporations out of sovereign space by denying them logistics, no more fights over regions of value. Buy scorpions from the store, reprocess a few to manufacture the T1 ammo and modules you need to fight your battle of infinite attrition. This is a foolish, boneheaded move by CCP. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Soapy5 Gallente BlackStar Innovations	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:48:00 - [145] Edited by: Soapy5 on 14/06/2011 06:50:22 Plan for world domination: Its quite simple. Lets go through this one step at a time: Step 1: buy GTC. Step 2: convert GTC to plex. Step 3: convert plex to aurum. Step 4: buy special scorpion with aurum. Step 5: reprocess special scorpion for minerals. Step 6: Repeat. Step 7: Make a ****load of supercaps. Step 8: Profit!
Htrag The Carebear Stare Hydroponic Zone	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:55:00 - [146] If this is fo realz, why sell the concept short... noone wants a crappy scorp twin. Can we get something useful for our dough like a gal/amarr pirate fraction boat with 8 lazors, 125 mp3 bonused drone bandwidth, and a new ewar capability of increasing a targets mass. We could also use a new interdictor class which could fit use cov ops cloaks and fit aoe cyno jammers.
Anonymous Dude	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:56:00 - [147] Originally by: Mister Smithington Oh god. If you can reprocess the IW scorp, you can use dollars to create anything from nothing. wtf. Yeah, this is unacceptable and I'm officially raging. If this is the case. Then here is what CAN happen: As it stands, there are buffers that prevent the ISK = PLEX conversion from affecting normal module and ship prices. The hassle of having to deal with BPOs/BPCs, build queues, POS hassle etc. All of these things add value to whatever your're building if you do them. Each of these phases of the construction process require effort thus generate value when completed. These phases ALSO provide a buffer between the value of a PLEX in ISK vs the value of a module in ISK, because I had to go mining, and someone wants my rifter, I get to be paid for my time mining and building a rifter. That said, the cost of modules can go up while PLEX goes down, and vice versa, because the indy folks are doing tasks that people are willing to pay for. IF the above scenario is true, then the following can occure: Instead of mining, I drop 15$ on a PLEX and buy a IW Scorp and reprocess. I now have a very EASY source of minerals that have 0 value because I didn't work for them, the ONLY value they have is the PLEX I used to "buy" them. This removes fully HALF of the danger of building a rifter, and subsequently, anyone who buys my rifter is simply refunding my PLEX $$$$, thus establishing a direct tie between a ship and a PLEX with no other market forces or indy factors involved, I can make money safely from a station with my wallet. Now, let's say all the buffers created by production are destroyed and every module and ship has a very easy to calculate PLEX cost (my rifter say is .03 PLEX). What happens when the Goons decide to be Goons, gather up 15,000$ and flood the PLEX market and cause it to crash? Every T1 module, T1 ship, and capital ship becomes calculatedly worthless.
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.06.14 06:57:00 - [148] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Originally by: Mister Smithington Oh god. If you can reprocess the IW scorp, you can use dollars to create anything from nothing. wtf. Yeah, this is unacceptable and I'm officially raging. Woah, my mind is totally blown Takes hit off bong
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:00:00 - [149] So far Tippia is about the only one in this forum that isn't completely over-reacting. Calm yourselves. I agree, if they sell this ship whole purely for money it may hurt scorp producers slightly. Sure, some people will pony up for the novelty of having one. But this situation (if they go thru with it) will last this summer... that's it. It's not permanent, nor even long term. Do you really think CCP is so desperate for a few bucks that their over-powering greed is promoting this? Really? Isn't it just a wee bit more likely that they want to give the whole thing a trial run, see how much people like the custom paint jobs, see what problems may arise, and just maybe (god forbid) do something nice and give players a taste of the new content as early as possible. Now I really don't like scorp builders taking even the tiny hit this will represent, nor do I like materials (whether finished or reprocessed) finding it's way into EVE on any kind of large scale or permanent basis. They really need to find a way to make spending ARUM for BPC's work, and soon. But this is hardly worthy of the hysteria sweeping this thread. I have no problem at all with ANY type of item being available as a BPC purely from real money transactions. This includes unique items more powerful than the norm. Because people will resell them on the open market for ISK, and anyone will be able to buy them. This is just a variation on the system we already have, spending either real money on items to resell for ISK or spending time to get ISK. That is a non-issue. The only part of the current proposal that is a problem is the generation of the ship without it consuming something (ISK, time, minerals, a scorp hull, whatever). While I can live with it for a short time, I can see it being a "concern"... and if they can come up with another way in the meantime we'd all be much happier. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:00:00 - [150] Originally by: Htrag If this is fo realz, why sell the concept short... noone wants a crappy scorp twin. Can we get something useful for our dough like a gal/amarr pirate fraction boat with 8 lazors, 125 mp3 bonused drone bandwidth, and a new ewar capability of increasing a targets mass. We could also use a new interdictor class which could fit use cov ops cloaks and fit aoe cyno jammers. See here is the thing. It's only suppose to be a paint job. Meaning you trade in your ship, and get it back with new paint. No minerals out of thin air, just some money for a shiny coat of paint. Instead it's creating a ship out of thin air. it's creating minerals out of thin air. It sets a hard price limit for all future scorpions. For instance, what happens if the market goes up which happens all the time and the aurum shop scorpion, isk wise, is cheaper than a normal scorpion? No one will be able to sell the ship for more than the NPC shop price. NPCs should sell nothing in eve. just look at skill books, they have a set price, you can make a profit moving them for lazy people, but they are more or less a controlled product. There can be no supply and demand in an items sold by NPCs. Of course we're trying to tell this to community of players who think just because they mine the minerals themselves, they are free.
Commander Toke'n'Choke	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:03:00 - [151] Edited by: Commander Toke''n''Choke on 14/06/2011 07:04:57 Originally by: Ranger 1 ... I have no problem at all with ANY type of item being available as a BPC purely from real money transactions. This includes unique items more powerful than the norm. Because people will resell them on the open market for ISK, and anyone will be able to buy them. This is just a variation on the system we already have, spending either real money on items to resell for ISK or spending time to get ISK. That is a non-issue. ... This is actually what the F2P - P2W (Free to Play - Pay to Win) model lots of companies in the asian markets use is. It sucks, trust me. Seems like the only people dumb enough in recent history to "sell" their advantage was NC, and look where that got them.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:04:00 - [152] Originally by: Commander Toke'n'Choke Originally by: Ranger 1 ... I have no problem at all with ANY type of item being available as a BPC purely from real money transactions. This includes unique items more powerful than the norm. Because people will resell them on the open market for ISK, and anyone will be able to buy them. This is just a variation on the system we already have, spending either real money on items to resell for ISK or spending time to get ISK. That is a non-issue. ... This is actually what the F2P - P2W (Free to Play - Pay to Win) model lots of companies in the asian markets use is. It sucks, trust me. I've never seen another game sell you the blueprint to make the objects yourself... ever. still even then the MT was and should always be, vanity only. As in the BPC lets you convert a ship, yourself, into a new paint job. thus giving the paint job value in both it's cost in aurum, and the cost in time.
Anonymous Dude	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:06:00 - [153] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Commander Toke'n'Choke Originally by: Ranger 1 ... I have no problem at all with ANY type of item being available as a BPC purely from real money transactions. This includes unique items more powerful than the norm. Because people will resell them on the open market for ISK, and anyone will be able to buy them. This is just a variation on the system we already have, spending either real money on items to resell for ISK or spending time to get ISK. That is a non-issue. ... This is actually what the F2P - P2W (Free to Play - Pay to Win) model lots of companies in the asian markets use is. It sucks, trust me. I've never seen another game sell you the blueprint to make the objects yourself... ever. still even then the MT was and should always be, vanity only. As in the BPC lets you convert a ship, yourself, into a new paint job. thus giving the paint job value in both it's cost in aurum, and the cost in time. It's not that they are selling you a blue print, its that the blue print you get is BETTER than anything that I can buy on the open market.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:08:00 - [154] I'm honestly curious which game lets you do this : ) also yeah it would be lame considering how tech 2 blueprint have about 10 levels of complexity. just to try to invent one. If you can just transfer your isk into aurum, and buy a bp better than tech 2. no one would bother with the great science system ccp put in place. it has to be paintjobs. and lets be clear here. I will be a tool, and buy lots of paint jobs. I'm that kind of player.
Prince Kobol	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:10:00 - [155] Whilst it is not selling Blueprints to build items what Turbine did in Lotro with crafting was to allow people to purchase crafting packs which contained all the materials need to create the required items. So in essences its like having a BPC to create a ship and then being able to purchase the minerals needed.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:11:00 - [156] Originally by: Anonymous Dude Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Commander Toke'n'Choke Originally by: Ranger 1 ... I have no problem at all with ANY type of item being available as a BPC purely from real money transactions. This includes unique items more powerful than the norm. Because people will resell them on the open market for ISK, and anyone will be able to buy them. This is just a variation on the system we already have, spending either real money on items to resell for ISK or spending time to get ISK. That is a non-issue. ... This is actually what the F2P - P2W (Free to Play - Pay to Win) model lots of companies in the asian markets use is. It sucks, trust me. I've never seen another game sell you the blueprint to make the objects yourself... ever. still even then the MT was and should always be, vanity only. As in the BPC lets you convert a ship, yourself, into a new paint job. thus giving the paint job value in both it's cost in aurum, and the cost in time. It's not that they are selling you a blue print, its that the blue print you get is BETTER than anything that I can buy on the open market. If the items in question (built from a ARUM purchased BPC) are freely traded on the open market that eliminates the "pay to win" portion of the equation. Anyone can get them, without spending a real dime. This is why, while I respect CCP limiting themselves to vanity only items, it really doesn't matter if it's better than standard or not. Anyone can get them, with ISK or with Cash. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:13:00 - [157] Dude, if you can just buy better items for aurum, which be gotten with isk. Then why will anyone bother with the tech 2 and tech 3 science careers. You instantly kill, what is for some players, half of their effective sp. Why train science skills when you can just run level 4 missions and BUY better blueprints from an NPC shop? you do know people make their whole career in eve making, improving, and selling blueprints for isk right?
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:15:00 - [158] Originally by: MotherMoon I'm honestly curious which game lets you do this : ) also yeah it would be lame considering how tech 2 blueprint have about 10 levels of complexity. just to try to invent one. If you can just transfer your isk into aurum, and buy a bp better than tech 2. no one would bother with the great science system ccp put in place. it has to be paintjobs. and lets be clear here. I will be a tool, and buy lots of paint jobs. I'm that kind of player. Hi Mother, sorry I overlooked you earlier. The fact that you can't convert ISK into AURUM is what keeps people buying the T2 ships the usual way in your example above. That and the fact that since real money was spent, higher capabilities and such as well, they will be hellishly expensive. T2 would certainly still have it's place. The special ships would have their own niche, but still be freely available to anyone... anyone willing to spend huge amounts of ISK. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:22:00 - [159] I should probably clarify that this is already going to happen in DUST. I have been using the term better a bit loosely though. Certain items will be for sale using AURUM only (until they are resold on the player driven market), but that doesn't necessarily mean they are better. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:23:00 - [160] Originally by: Sarmatiko Ok you can keep crying in this thread because your stupidity is unstoppable by common sense. And you can keep completely fail to understand anything of what is being discussed, and flaming people over your own incompetence, lack of vision, non-existent analytical ability and abject failure at applying even the smallest and simplest measures of logic. Nowà stfu, listen, try to think (I know it's hard for you, but try anyway), and then answer the following questions. This change means that you can buy minerals for cash, completely bypassing the balancing mechanics that limit the amount of minerals that is injected into the game. Do you have any clue what a destructive thing this is? This change means that the following activities are being encroached on: mining, manufacturing, research, and trade. Do you understand why this is a bad thing? Do you understand that the market is the engine that drives this game? Do you understand why it drives the game? Do you understand why artificially injecting minerals out of nowhere ruins this engine? Quote: I will just play the game and make money No you will not, because you will no longer be relevant to the market. This little change cuts you out of the loop. Quote: And yes I will probably use my father's credit card (who is multi-hyper-billionaire in the oil industry) just to buy 100500 Scorps, reprocess them and ruin your happy carebear's world with pony's and rainbows. Mwahahaha See. This is where you fail to think. Depending on the price, you will only ever need to buy one PLEX, and the ISK you gain is semi-infinite. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:27:00 - [161] Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 07:30:15 Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 14/06/2011 07:19:01 Originally by: MotherMoon I'm honestly curious which game lets you do this : ) also yeah it would be lame considering how tech 2 blueprint have about 10 levels of complexity. just to try to invent one. If you can just transfer your isk into aurum, and buy a bp better than tech 2. no one would bother with the great science system ccp put in place. it has to be paintjobs. and lets be clear here. I will be a tool, and buy lots of paint jobs. I'm that kind of player. Hi Mother, sorry I overlooked you earlier. The fact that you can't convert ISK into AURUM is what keeps people buying the T2 ships the usual way why can't I convert isk into aurum? on everything else yeah fair points : ) but the fact of the matter is most MT games don't like you convert your in game money into the MT money. for example. tippa. "This change means that you can buy minerals for cash," but it also, and MORE IMPORTANTLY means you can convert ISK into minerals. You can spend isk to buy a plex, to buy aurum, to buy a ship, and thus generate minerals out of thin air. This puts an artificial cap on mineral prices. Because why would I buy minerals off the market from you, if I can get them cheaper right from ccp?
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:29:00 - [162] Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 14/06/2011 07:32:59 Originally by: Ranger 1 I have no problem at all with ANY type of item being available as a BPC purely from real money transactions. This includes unique items more powerful than the norm. Because people will resell them on the open market for ISK, and anyone will be able to buy them. This is just a variation on the system we already have, spending either real money on items to resell for ISK or spending time to get ISK. That is a non-issue. A BPC for a Aurum NormalShip+1 is a horrible idea. Every researched NormalShip BPO in the game will go down in value, every NormalShip will go down in value. Something like this adds to the productive capacity of the in-game world with out having to account for the in-game effort to make it and produce it. It's a short cut across the half the economy. It would cheapen the years and months of efforts of any player who ever worked on a similar item that is now out classed by the Aurum BPO or BPC. With out going too far off into a related and germane tangent, the only reason this is somewhat acceptable in Dust is because none of that stuff ever existed before and is in a format that is completely new. A Aurum BPO for a Plasma Shot Gun with MegaBunnyDeathThumper-Scope can not cheapen a 450mm Rail Gun. But a 500mm Rail Gun BPO/BPC available only via Aurum will cheapen the 450mm and all the years of effort players have spent on making them, researching them and inventing them. Now if CCP wants to make a blueprint that has a 450mm gun make fart sounds and shoot purple sparkles out with my little pony particle effects bouncing happily around the battle field eating daises, that's fine. Well not really, but you get the point I hope. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:33:00 - [163] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 07:30:15 Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 14/06/2011 07:19:01 Originally by: MotherMoon I'm honestly curious which game lets you do this : ) also yeah it would be lame considering how tech 2 blueprint have about 10 levels of complexity. just to try to invent one. If you can just transfer your isk into aurum, and buy a bp better than tech 2. no one would bother with the great science system ccp put in place. it has to be paintjobs. and lets be clear here. I will be a tool, and buy lots of paint jobs. I'm that kind of player. Hi Mother, sorry I overlooked you earlier. The fact that you can't convert ISK into AURUM is what keeps people buying the T2 ships the usual way why can't I convert isk into aurum? on everything else yeah fair points : ) but the fact of the matter is most MT games don't like you convert your in game money into the MT money. for example. tippa. "This change means that you can buy minerals for cash," but it also, and MORE IMPORTANTLY means you can convert ISK into minerals. You can spend isk to buy a plex, to buy aurum, to buy a ship, and thus generate minerals out of thin air. This puts an artificial cap on mineral prices. Because why would I buy minerals off the market from you, if I can get them cheaper right from ccp? Yeah, I caught myself and put a big hairy OOPS edit in my post above. Probably while you were typing this one. Sorry about that. It's waaaay late for me here. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:34:00 - [164] Originally by: Dogo Duma Quoting briefly from another forum. This discussion struck me as remarkably similar. à Quote: And you have the rest of the general public: "Herp derp pencil skirts!" I love the potential presented by the MT store, while in the same breath I curse CCP for the idiocy they are demonstrating in the way they are implementing it. Those pencil skirts, monocles, Ishukone Watch Scorpions, etc, all provide the opportunity to do things The Right WayÖ. The EVE way of doing these would be to provide blueprints, schematics, or one essential ingredient through the store, with the rest of the resources being available through mining, salvage, datacores, tags, LP store, etc. Their chief economist should realise that scarcity creates value, and the most scarce resource in EVE is players willing to live in risky environments. Thus there is a world of opportunity for null and lowsec denizens to produce items needed to manufacture MT store items, which they can use to funnel ISK from hisec mission runners & "carebears". The system can then be set in place to pump the PLEX to ISK cycle, with CCP continually making real money from the sale of PLEX. With items being available directly from the MT store, there is not as much opportunity for CCP to make real-world money. Making the items available from the store as blueprint copies, an entire new line of manufacturing opens up. Make the skillbooks required for this line of manufacturing only available from the MT store. Even better, make the MT store items limited based on faction & standings: you can only buy the BPC for "Guristas Grey Pencil Skirt" from a Guristas station, and you have to have the appropriate standings. CCP could also explore the avenue of selling art (third-party created paintings and 3D models to decorate CQ) on a commission basis. Introduce a battle recorder, and players could even buy a server-rendered still or video of their favourite battle to hang on their wall. All of these options enrich the player driven economy instead of undermining it. In the future when talking about PI we could be talking about "Hey, I discovered a nest of Greater Bandersnatch Spiders over here in F-9F6Q V" - spiders whose silk is required to produce "Guristas Grey Pencil Skirt", and which if carefully managed is a resource that could make a fortune for the discoverer for the indefinite future (because that skirt is particularly conservative yet expressive fashion, and is bloody expensive so there is ISK available to make the resource gathering profitable). Someone else comes along and finds that resource too and starts exploiting it, at which point the first capsuleer has a clear reason to send DUST mercenaries against the competitor with the mission "eliminate all spider processing facilities". Or perhaps you're the second guy, and you want to play the "dog in the manger" game, so you hire the mercenaries with the instructions, "eliminate all spiders, destroy spider habitat". I dunno, perhaps I'm just being to fanciful, but I see there is great potential in this game that CCP is ignoring in the rush for the quick money. We need resources that are (a) rare and (b) need to be discovered. We need more things to make, and the MT store provides a great avenue to facilitate CCPs acquisition of hard currency while enhancing the economy of the game. So yes, please do introduce things that can only be produced using blueprints obtained from the MT store. Just don't sell the thing directly. If only CCP would get a clue and do it The Right WayÖ. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:35:00 - [165] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 14/06/2011 07:32:59 Originally by: Ranger 1 I have no problem at all with ANY type of item being available as a BPC purely from real money transactions. This includes unique items more powerful than the norm. Because people will resell them on the open market for ISK, and anyone will be able to buy them. This is just a variation on the system we already have, spending either real money on items to resell for ISK or spending time to get ISK. That is a non-issue. A BPC for a Aurum NormalShip+1 is a horrible idea. Every researched NormalShip BPO in the game will go down in value, every NormalShip will go down in value. Something like this adds to the productive capacity of the in-game world with out having to account for the in-game effort to make it and produce it. It's a short cut across the half the economy. It would cheapen the years and months of efforts of any player who ever worked on a similar item that is now out classed by the Aurum BPO or BPC. With out going too far off into a related and germane tangent, the only reason this is somewhat acceptable in Dust is because none of that stuff ever existed before and is in a format that is completely new. A Aurum BPO for a Plasma Shot Gun with MegaBunnyDeathThumper-Scope can not cheapen a 450mm Rail Gun. But a 500mm Rail Gun BPO/BPC available only via Aurum will cheapen the 450mm and all the years of effort players have spent on making them, researching them and inventing them. Now if CCP wants to make a blueprint that has a 450mm gun make fart sounds and shoot purple sparkles out with my little pony particle effects bouncing happily around the battle field eating daises, that's fine. Well not really, but you get the point I hope. Yes, I get your point. I had also posted that I shouldn't have used the term "better" so loosely. Different, or with unique capabilities would have been a better example of what I was trying to convey. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Sarmatiko	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:36:00 - [166] Originally by: Tippia more douche mumbling You are a truly master of discussion about non-existing stuff. Have you seen new Scorpion in the market? Have you seen that it's reprocessable or not? Have you seen his price or list of items that is required for purchase? No? Then shut the ** up and wait until things get to the release** and then start crying or leave or suicide, decide for yourself.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:37:00 - [167] haha it's ok. and you bring me back to a very important point I brought up in an early post. How much everything is going to cost in Aurum directly effects all of the stuff we are talking about. I really feel like in the end they only bring it new non-vanity items if they are new new. You know, like something that players don't already have an investment in. but really I understand you're points and for the most part you have a decently strong case. It's the conversion from isk to minerals that is bothering me the most. They could make the new Aurum only ship have 0 insurance payout and no refinement value. that might be enough to temporally have the paint job as an option and still save the whole economy.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:40:00 - [168] I just noticed this is one of the few topics me and tippa are 100% on the same page.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:43:00 - [169] Originally by: Sarmatiko I cannot answer any of your questions I noticed, so I'll ask them again and give you a second change to think it over. Do you have any clue how destructive it is to inject minerals into the market out of nowhere? Do you understand why circumventing at least four different professions is a bad thing? Do you understand that the market is the engine that drives this game? Do you understand why it drives the game? Do you understand why artificially injecting minerals out of nowhere ruins this engine? Quote: Have you seen new Scorpion in the market? I don't have to. Quote: Have you seen that it's reprocessable or not? It is supposed to be just like a normal Scorp. Quote: Have you seen his price or list of items that is required for purchase? I don't have to, because the effect is there regardless. Quote: No? Then shut the ** up and wait until things get to the release No, because by then it will be too late*. There is no need whatsoever to put it onto the market before you can understand the effects, if you have half a brain. You should try it. Start by answering the questions above, if you can. If you can't, you are not qualified to take part in this discussion and need to go take a long walk off a short pier. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki*
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:45:00 - [170] Quote: And I'm definitely overreacting to people who think this is not an issue, because it most certainly is. People often accuse me of being a troll when I challenge what someone says ù they haven't seen what happens when I actually troll the living daylights out of someone who's advocating this kind of total destruction of core mechanics. I hope you don't think I am advocating the "buy a ship from nothing except cold cash" as a non-issue if it were to become the norm. My point in relation to this silly scorp trial run is that it's not going to be the norm. People "are" over-reacting and making out like CCP intends this to be the way it's done from now on, and they clearly aren't. They are simply trying to figure a way, short term, to roll out the first taste of somewhat personalized or special looking ships before the deeper kinks are worked out of the system. Now if people are going to freak out in a paranoid fit (and no, I'm still not directing that a you) and dive deep into the "CCP is out to ruin their own game and me along with it" pool, then perhaps they should just tell us we'll have to wait until fall for that preview. Of course, if they do that, there will be a firestorm of protest that they are purposely stringing us along when they "could" release the new goodies. "Heavy sigh." ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Pesadel0 the muppets RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:46:00 - [171] It has begun .
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:48:00 - [172] Ranger1 you underestimate the abilities of eve players to break something ccp put in the game. It's just a fact that if you CAN reprocess it into minerals. they are in fact, placing a price cap on minerals. I mean this is why they removed shuttles from the NPC market all those years ago. They were making it so tritium had a hard set price cap. Why are they redoing what they used to consider a mistake?
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:49:00 - [173] Originally by: Ranger 1 Yes, I get your point. I had also posted that I shouldn't have used the term "better" so loosely. Different, or with unique capabilities would have been a better example of what I was trying to convey. Fair enough. I do understand what you're saying, I simply can not agree with it. "Different", "unique" are still dangerous words because they can end up meaning 'better' simply by some unintended consequence of design, of which Eve has many. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:51:00 - [174] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 14/06/2011 07:54:40 Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 07:38:29 haha it's ok. and you bring me back to a very important point I brought up in an early post. How much everything is going to cost in Aurum directly effects all of the stuff we are talking about. I really feel like in the end they only bring it new non-vanity items if they are new new. You know, like something that players don't already have an investment in. but really I understand you're points and for the most part you have a decently strong case. It's the conversion from isk to minerals that is bothering me the most. They could make the new Aurum only ship have 0 insurance payout and no refinement value. that might be enough to temporally have the paint job as an option and still save the whole economy. Originally by: Sarmatiko Originally by: Tippia more douche mumbling You are a truly master of discussion about non-existing stuff. Have you seen new Scorpion in the market? Have you seen that it's reprocessable or not? Have you seen his price or list of items that is required for purchase? No? Then shut the ** up and wait until things get to the release** and then start crying or leave or suicide, decide for yourself. yes and we should let people onto airplanes, and wait untill we get them in the air to check for weapons, or the plane has enough fuel for the flight I'm with you on this one. If the silly bug ship is made so that it cannot be reprocessed or insured (as it is a unique item I think that is probably doable) that would minimize and economic fall out. Scorp producers still get stung a bit though for a few months. Tippia will probably let us know if we overlooked something obvious. Edit: I'd really love to sort this thing out. Unbelievably we actually are making a bit of constructive progress on these forums. However I need to get a couple of hours sleep before work. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
moskowitz Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:51:00 - [175] everone run missions!!! there will be no point in building...and it's already pretty pathetic for builders.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:52:00 - [176] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Ranger 1 Yes, I get your point. I had also posted that I shouldn't have used the term "better" so loosely. Different, or with unique capabilities would have been a better example of what I was trying to convey. Fair enough. I do understand what you're saying, I simply can not agree with it. "Different", "unique" are still dangerous words because they can end up meaning 'better' simply by some unintended consequence of design, of which Eve has many. And thankfully dust514 will be there to fill that gap. And from what I understand eve players will be able to buy those those in eve if they wish and resell them to dust players. cool
Sealiah Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club ROMANIAN-LEGION	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:52:00 - [177] ... The author of this thread can't listen properly... THIS IS JUST A SKIN, nothing more.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:53:00 - [178] Originally by: Sealiah ... The author of this thread can't listen properly... THIS IS JUST A SKIN, nothing more. You can't listen properly. It's a ship with a different skin. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Drykor Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:55:00 - [179] .. And slowly CCP introduces more and more microtransaction stuff to let everyone get used to the idea. I bet in half a year you will be gaining real game advantages with stuff you directly buy from CCP. --- Drykor - AHARM
Dogo Duma	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:58:00 - [180] Originally by: Prince Kobol Personally I'm not worried about this. The way I see it in most cases this will happen Person buys Ishukone Watch Scorpion with RL Cash. Then they will undock.. station spin for a while in fear that they will get ganked and lose said ship that cost them rl $$$ or they will use the ship for PvE and will then get ganked for lol's Either way these ships will be a bigger target then a tasty T3 with faction mods simply because everybody will know that they have paid rl $$$ for it. I cant wait until somebodies pays rl $$$ for a ship and then it is ganked within minutes of undocking and then comes on the forums crying demanding that CCP gives them another ship for free because it was their ship that they paid for :) I do see and agree with what people are worried about thou, as in what else are CCP prepared to add into the cash store. Those people who have and still do play Lotro will appreciate this as Turbine has now gone back on the promise they made about adding items in store that do not give a player an advantage. Everybody knew it was going happen sooner or later and it now has. There is only so much money that can be made by selling cosmetics In the mean time however, not only does it provide those at CCP who just don't care to think things through and take the proper time to do things right with validations of "awesome, stuff sold, cash, yum". Which is regardless of how much actually sold something that is like "shiny" to them. It is not hard to remember the self imposed delusions that were present with PI, how awesome it was and how everybody used it - until the numbers were checked by a CSM, and it resulted in complete emberassment of those parts of CCP. Even now, the exact numbers are kept under NDA, it was that bad. Fun to look back through those CSM meeting minutes and old threads. Also in the meantime, keep in mind that in gaming customers will always seek most efficient paths, which does not necessarily mean that those paths are even compatible with operational principles. Imagine you can reprocess the ship =P Fun mineral basket, fun for the RMT supercap crowds. Encouraging even to go into excess even further. Another funny thing, where it should be a vanity item, take note of how it is discussed already as a convenience item. Which is quite different. And realise that CCP - in light of historic evolution and precedent and in spite of its own general sentiments or awareness - never commits resources to things like these unless it has the intention to take it all the way. In a nutshell, yes, CCP has been empty talk, where it comes to these topics. Shame. That's the problem with these things. Each time, it is a small thing which does not appear to have much potential or much impact. Very often, it is the result of a "bug" or some issue as consequence of planning or lack of time or more of that. Each time matters are stretched a little further. Each time, it is just another step down the road - regardless of what customers think, or feel. And if that last part does not matter, you've just missed the very key element of what makes EVE function and grow.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 07:59:00 - [181] Edited by: Tippia on 14/06/2011 08:02:48 Originally by: Ranger 1 My point in relation to this silly scorp trial run is that it's not going to be the norm. One would hope so, but it still raises the question: what on earth are they thinking, adding a mineral-for-cash faucet that completely circumvents all balancing and availability mechanics? Quote: People "are" over-reacting and making out like CCP intends this to be the way it's done from now on, and they clearly aren't. They are simply trying to figure a way, short term, to roll out the first taste of somewhat personalized or special looking ships before the deeper kinks are worked out of the system. The thing is, I think they're right in overreacting. Maybe not as far as the details go, but in terms of it being pretty much the appropriate response to this level of WTF-itude on CCP's part. They should get the feeling that someone is shoving matches under their toe-nails and lighting them, because while they might not do this particular thing again, there is this very worrying trend that they keep adding these half-done additions without considering what they'll actually do to the game (and the market being a particularly critical thing to mess with in EVE). Oh andà Originally by: Sealiah ... The author of this thread can't listen properly... THIS IS JUST A SKIN, nothing more. No. It is not "just a skin". By the description so far, it is an unregulated item faucet ù quite possible an unregulated mineral faucet. That is a very very bad thing. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Sarmatiko	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:04:00 - [182] Originally by: Tippia I noticed, so I'll ask them again and give you a second change to think it over. Sorry I cannot answer questions about non-existent stuff. If you still believe in Santa or God or "minerals for $" then I have bad news for you kid, they do not exist. I can spend more time on the other things than just arguing with idiot that panic on forum every expansion, predicting the END and then keeps playing over and over again. You can continue your hypocrite predictions but this is not more than dog's barking on caravan.
Nix Gravity	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:04:00 - [183] Originally by: Ranger 1 I agree, if they sell this ship whole purely for money it may hurt scorp producers slightly. Sure, some people will pony up for the novelty of having one. But this situation (if they go thru with it) will last this summer... that's it. It's not permanent, nor even long term. What did the scorpion producers do to deserve this done to them? Why does this situation have to exist even short term? And once this is done for one ship, what makes you think it won't be done for others? People keep making the comparison to PLEX, but PLEX never created anything in-game: it was bought with out-of-game resources and could be used to create an out-of-game resource (subscription). If they release ships this way, they are creating a direct route for exchanging money for items, and the existence of that direct route is much much worse than the bad things people think they see in PLEX for isk or even characters (since that isk and the characters had to have been raised through the game). At the risk of running afoul of Godwin's Law: First they came for the Scorpion manufacturers, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Scorpion manufacturer. Then they came for all the miners, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a miner. Then they came for all the industrialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't an industrialist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:07:00 - [184] Originally by: Sarmatiko Sorry I cannot answer questions about non-existent stuff. Then you are not qualified to discuss the topic at hand, doubly so since you fail to understand why my questions are not related to non-existent stuff. So, I'll ask them again ù final attempt, and your final chance to understand the issue. Try reading them this time. Do you have any clue how destructive it is to inject minerals into the market out of nowhere? Do you understand why circumventing at least four different professions is a bad thing? Do you understand that the market is the engine that drives this game? Do you understand why it drives the game? Do you understand why artificially injecting minerals out of nowhere ruins this engine? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:09:00 - [185] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 06:20:40 Quote: Sarmatiko So you;re in full support of adding shuttles back to NPC shops? Your ok with the NPCs selling tech 1 and tech 2 gear? I mean the hell with the players producing the stuff, it's easier if an mmo just has an NPC market you buy stuff off of! I mean it's not like the economy in eve is important, you press buy, you get something. that's all that goes into it! edit: to clarify Buy scorp for isk isk to plex to aurum reprocess ship into minerals with max skills. create new artificial price cap for all minerals. derp You'd have to be out of your mind to even think about attempting that.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:10:00 - [186] Originally by: Ranger 1 My point in relation to this silly scorp trial run is that it's not going to be the norm. It sets a precedent. "Hey, they didn't quit the game when we introduced the IW Scorpion. Let's introduce more ships and modules." I'd prefer it if the MT store worked the same way as LP stores, with Aurum replacing LP. Sure, the game would be better if there wasn't an MT store at all, but CCP seems to think that the future of the game is dependent on the MT store, so let's let them introduce it in a sensible manner. Provide BPCs or item conversions, just like the LP stores do. I don't buy their nonsense about "can't tell a BPC how many copies it has". They already do this for LP store items. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Prince Kobol	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:13:00 - [187] The way I look at this move by CCP is that this is a deliberate move to test the waters. (yes I am cynical :)) They could of easily waited until the issue with the BPC has been fixed, instead they chose this course of action. That to me speaks volumes. Regardless of the outrage shown here, if it transpires that people are purchasing the Scorpion and it proves popular and CCP see extra income then expect much more to come. This is the danger with Cash Stores. I have had personal experience with Turbine and Lotro. When the accountants start seeing extra revenue being generated then any promises made about only vanity items being available goes out of the window. As for the argument "Well people will leave" it rarely holds true. If the extra revenue being generated by the store is more then any revenue being lost in a few people cancelling there subs what do you think will happen.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:13:00 - [188] Originally by: Sarmatiko Originally by: Tippia I noticed, so I'll ask them again and give you a second change to think it over. Sorry I cannot answer questions about non-existent stuff. If you still believe in Santa or God or "minerals for $" then I have bad news for you kid, they do not exist. I can spend more time on the other things than just arguing with idiot that panic on forum every expansion, predicting the END and then keeps playing over and over again. You can continue your hypocrite predictions but this is not more than dog's barking on caravan. Wow you just got it all figured out don't you? I love to call Tippia hard headed but you know...Tippia don't waste your time on this one. He's "too smart" for this world. Infact..1/10 because you got Tippia mad.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:15:00 - [189] Originally by: Mars Theran Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 06:20:40 Quote: Sarmatiko So you;re in full support of adding shuttles back to NPC shops? Your ok with the NPCs selling tech 1 and tech 2 gear? I mean the hell with the players producing the stuff, it's easier if an mmo just has an NPC market you buy stuff off of! I mean it's not like the economy in eve is important, you press buy, you get something. that's all that goes into it! edit: to clarify Buy scorp for isk isk to plex to aurum reprocess ship into minerals with max skills. create new artificial price cap for all minerals. derp You'd have to be out of your mind to even think about attempting that. people did it with shuttles.
Riley Moore Sentinum Research	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:17:00 - [190] Oh dear.. and so it begins. --- Sentinum Research Store
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:18:00 - [191] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 14/06/2011 08:08:09 Originally by: Sarmatiko Sorry I cannot answer questions about non-existent stuff. Then you are not qualified to discuss the topic at hand, doubly so since you fail to understand why my questions are not related to non-existent stuff. So, I'll ask them again ù final attempt, and your final chance to understand the issue. Try reading them this time. Do you have any clue how destructive it is to inject minerals into the market out of nowhere? Do you understand why circumventing at least four different professions is a bad thing? Do you understand that the market is the engine that drives this game? Do you understand why it drives the game? Do you understand why artificially injecting minerals out of nowhere ruins this engine? By the way, even if I were asking about non-existent stuff, those kinds of questions are not hard to answer eitherà Minerals are injected into the market out of nowhere everyday; or did you think players actually produced the asteroids? Make all the stuff you want, people will still buy it. The market drives this game? When? I thought it was driven by players pursuing hobbies that included playing EVE, or at least by hampsters running around a mill in a cage. The market isn't an engine, it's a somewhat borked economy, as with all heavily manipulated MMO economies. I'm sure there is a lot you understand about EVE, but the way you go about incessently repeating the same old stuff is absolutely mind boggling. How can you even suggest that nonsense in a game that's crippled by RMT, Bots, and players manipulating markets for personal gain?
DeBingJos Minmatar Jukebox Warriors	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:20:00 - [192] Originally by: San Severina Unfortunately this will be the end of EvE for me. I very disappointed with CCP. I love EvE but this kind of thing is always the begining of the end of a game & I don't want to watch EvE slide down the slippery slope of MT & F2P. I forecast bad times ahead for this game - I hope I'm wrong, but I have seen this before, it's a money grab & once the money grab starts the integrity of the game is gone baby gone. I could not have said it better. Sad times ahead. The moment I see this live on TQ I will cancel my sub.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:20:00 - [193] Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 08:22:18 Originally by: Prince Kobol The way I look at this move by CCP is that this is a deliberate move to test the waters. (yes I am cynical :)) They could of easily waited until the issue with the BPC has been fixed, instead they chose this course of action. That to me speaks volumes. Regardless of the outrage shown here, if it transpires that people are purchasing the Scorpion and it proves popular and CCP see extra income then expect much more to come. This is the danger with Cash Stores. I have had personal experience with Turbine and Lotro. When the accountants start seeing extra revenue being generated then any promises made about only vanity items being available goes out of the window. As for the argument "Well people will leave" it rarely holds true. If the extra revenue being generated by the store is more then any revenue being lost in a few people cancelling there subs what do you think will happen. heres the problem though. a large number of people that eve do nothing BUT manufacturing. these players have years and years of sp. If this went beyound the summer and became norm, it would, for once, actully be a NGE situation. Becuase all of those players would have 10s of millions of sp wasted. trust me, when the NGE came around it wasn't the combat players that left. It was the crafters. If you can just buy any ships for isk aurum from plex, from isk then the whole market i eve is useless, and along with it, a large chunk of the playerbase won't have an choice but to quit. I'm not going to quit over it. I'm just saying, if they did it, in this case, people would quit. It would be like removing a class or race from WoW. That kind of stuff actully does make players quit mmos. edit: now that I think about it IF, and it's a big if, you could buy ships for isk off an NPC market isk to aurum then the miners are all out of jobs as well. Those players that do nothing but mine will leave.
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:22:00 - [194] Oh hey, look its the C store. I didn't expect you this soon however. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:24:00 - [195] Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 14/06/2011 08:26:37 Originally by: Mars Theran Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 14/06/2011 08:08:09 Originally by: Sarmatiko Sorry I cannot answer questions about non-existent stuff. Then you are not qualified to discuss the topic at hand, doubly so since you fail to understand why my questions are not related to non-existent stuff. So, I'll ask them again ù final attempt, and your final chance to understand the issue. Try reading them this time. Do you have any clue how destructive it is to inject minerals into the market out of nowhere? Do you understand why circumventing at least four different professions is a bad thing? Do you understand that the market is the engine that drives this game? Do you understand why it drives the game? Do you understand why artificially injecting minerals out of nowhere ruins this engine? By the way, even if I were asking about non-existent stuff, those kinds of questions are not hard to answer eitherà Minerals are injected into the market out of nowhere everyday; or did you think players actually produced the asteroids? Make all the stuff you want, people will still buy it. The market drives this game? When? I thought it was driven by players pursuing hobbies that included playing EVE, or at least by hampsters running around a mill in a cage. The market isn't an engine, it's a somewhat borked economy, as with all heavily manipulated MMO economies. I'm sure there is a lot you understand about EVE, but the way you go about incessently repeating the same old stuff is absolutely mind boggling. How can you even suggest that nonsense in a game that's crippled by RMT, Bots, and players manipulating markets for personal gain? I agree with you on the bolded part..and I agree with you that the game is "crippled by RMT, Bots, and players manipulating markets for personal gain". But Tippia is right and this doesn't help it any either. Not only that but it's another step in the direction of eve going with microtransactions. I'd rather them work out aother way just so I don't have to lose faith in their word and continue paying for a game that is going in a direction I can and will not follow. Edit: As crippled as it might be..it still works even if it's fragile. We want to keep it that way.
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:24:00 - [196] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Mars Theran Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 06:20:40 Quote: Sarmatiko So you;re in full support of adding shuttles back to NPC shops? Your ok with the NPCs selling tech 1 and tech 2 gear? I mean the hell with the players producing the stuff, it's easier if an mmo just has an NPC market you buy stuff off of! I mean it's not like the economy in eve is important, you press buy, you get something. that's all that goes into it! edit: to clarify Buy scorp for isk isk to plex to aurum reprocess ship into minerals with max skills. create new artificial price cap for all minerals. derp You'd have to be out of your mind to even think about attempting that. people did it with shuttles. People with a ton of ISK, (see above comment about people manipulating the market for personal gain), did it with shuttles. Most likely Goonswarm, and a half a hundred other players who got into it. You're talking about spending RL $$$ on PLEX, converting to AUR, and buying ships of the AUR Store to convert to minerals in game. That's insane! You'd spend millions before you could even hope to make a difference. Minerals are already cheap as heck, adding more that way is going to cost you a bundle. We're talking about an endless ingame resource; not something that has a limited resource and will eventually have to be searched out somewhere else. You people really need to assess your way of thinking.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:26:00 - [197] I'm not talking about converting $$$ into aurum you fool! I'm talking about converting isk into aurum and BUYING MINERALS.
Prince Kobol	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:28:00 - [198] Edited by: Prince Kobol on 14/06/2011 08:32:01 Yet every person I have ever spoken to about SW Galaxies said they left due to the changes in combat and the introducing of the Jedi Class, not crafting. Its horses for courses. I am not advocating this change, personally I dislike cash stores because so far no developer has ever kept their promise that only vanity items will be available. At some point they always introduce items that effect in game play, they cant help themselves. When Turbine stated that they were going F2P and will have a cash store there was polls and threads where 1000's of players (and I do mean 1000's) voiced their objections, saying there would leave the game, said that the game would die and you know what, it made no difference, Turbine went ahead, broke their promise and Lotro now has more players and is making more money then ever. Also, I am sure that CCP are fully aware of most if not all of the concerns that people have raised here. They have most likely been studying the effects on introducing in game items for cash for months if not longer. It wouldn't surprise me if the issues with the BPC is in fact false and that they have been planning this little test for a while.
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:30:00 - [199] Originally by: Tippia Do you have any clue how destructive it is to inject minerals into the market out of nowhere? Do you understand why circumventing at least four different professions is a bad thing? Do you understand that the market is the engine that drives this game? Do you understand why it drives the game? Do you understand why artificially injecting minerals out of nowhere ruins this engine? Well .. only thing I can say that inspite of the fact that I don't really like how CCP is doing this, I can't imagine that the quantity of reprocessed Ishu Scorps will have any significant impact on the economy, it's just a drop in the ocean. The CSM you al voted for approves and I tend to agree with them: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:30:00 - [200] Originally by: Mars Theran Minerals are injected into the market out of nowhere everyday Minerals are injected every day through faucets that have limitations and restrictive balance mechanics applied to them that regulate the the flow. None of that exists here. Moreover, that injection is done through activities and professions that have been designed into the game and which have as their purpose to feed the market. All of that is being circumvented by this. Quote: The market drives this game? When? 24/7/365.25, ever since the game was launched. Everything anyone does in this game feeds into the market ù it affects and is affected by every last action taken. None of the things that people pursue as hobbies could be pursued in EVE without the market feeding that pursuit. Want to pursue a bigger ship? You grind for ISK, which you feed back into the market, where other players can respond to your demand by giving you that bigger ship, and in return, you have responded to their demand of ISK. Even with all RMT and bots and manipulation, it all happens within that system, and all of it is subject to the market forces that these mechanics generate and enforce. What's being added here is something that bypasses those regulation and balance mechanics; which isn't affected by them; but which still manipulates everything else on the most fundamental level. It is the EVE market version of a teleport-wallhack. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:34:00 - [201] Originally by: Mars Theran Minerals are injected into the market out of nowhere everyday; or did you think players actually produced the asteroids? Those minerals don't make it into the market until someone spends the time to liberate them from their asteroid prisons. Quote: Make all the stuff you want, people will still buy it. Only if you make stuff people are buying, in quantities less than or equal to the quantities that are being bought. Quote: The market drives this game? When? From the moment you bought your first ship. The market is part of the engine that makes this game work. Quote: I thought it was driven by players à Players drive the market. Players are driven by the market. Players are the market. Not all the same players, so you can't substitute "player" for "market" and still make sense of course :) Quote: The market isn't an engine, it's a somewhat borked economy, as with all heavily manipulated MMO economies. It's the closest to a real life economy of any MMO. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:35:00 - [202] Originally by: HeIIfire11 Originally by: Mars Theran Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 14/06/2011 08:08:09 Originally by: Sarmatiko Sorry I cannot answer questions about non-existent stuff. Then you are not qualified to discuss the topic at hand, doubly so since you fail to understand why my questions are not related to non-existent stuff. So, I'll ask them again ù final attempt, and your final chance to understand the issue. Try reading them this time. Do you have any clue how destructive it is to inject minerals into the market out of nowhere? Do you understand why circumventing at least four different professions is a bad thing? Do you understand that the market is the engine that drives this game? Do you understand why it drives the game? Do you understand why artificially injecting minerals out of nowhere ruins this engine? By the way, even if I were asking about non-existent stuff, those kinds of questions are not hard to answer eitherà Minerals are injected into the market out of nowhere everyday; or did you think players actually produced the asteroids? Make all the stuff you want, people will still buy it. The market drives this game? When? I thought it was driven by players pursuing hobbies that included playing EVE, or at least by hampsters running around a mill in a cage. The market isn't an engine, it's a somewhat borked economy, as with all heavily manipulated MMO economies. I'm sure there is a lot you understand about EVE, but the way you go about incessently repeating the same old stuff is absolutely mind boggling. How can you even suggest that nonsense in a game that's crippled by RMT, Bots, and players manipulating markets for personal gain? I agree with you on the bolded part..and I agree with you that the game is "crippled by RMT, Bots, and players manipulating markets for personal gain". But Tippia is right and this doesn't help it any either. Not only that but it's another step in the direction of eve going with microtransactions. I'd rather them work out aother way just so I don't have to lose faith in their word and continue paying for a game that is going in a direction I cannot and will not follow. I'm good with Vanity store items myself. Couldn't care less if they paint ships and do all that, and in fact will be really happy to see some new paint jobs flying around. I would tend to side with most of you on the MT for modules and ships available through player manufacturing in-game though. I don't think the already retextured Scorpion is going to be a big issue though, particularly given it's limited usefulness in game in PvE. I find it extremely unlikely anyone will use a painted MT ship for anything else. At least it will give CCP a chance to determine the impact of these MT on EVE's economy, while being an item that most people just won't buy, and so reducing the chance of any dynamic impact on the game economy. Actually .. I think the reason everyone is ****ed, is likely because they invested in Scorps ..but yeah, Scorps bought this way would actually have dynamically impacted EVE economy in a reverse trend, increasing sales of otherwise uncommon ships like the Scorp should CCP have been able to implement the injection of Scorps while removing them from the game through the transaction. So here we have yet more player manipulation of EVE markets for the sake of personal gain, while fighting and complaining about it on the forums. Nothing ever really changes in EVE, and hey, at least the prospective buyers won't have to spend money and ISK, just to get ganked by all the people who are going to target those ships for the next 6 months because they're new.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:46:00 - [203] Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 08:49:31 Originally by: Prince Kobol Yet every person I have ever spoken to about SW Galaxies said they left due to the changes in combat and the introducing of the Jedi Class, not crafting. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=132098 http://www.mmofringe.com/forum/15-star-wars-galaxies/4085-mmorpg-swg-pre-nge-had-best-crafting-system http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Crafting This is for a private server that still uses the old crafting system See old SWG you could be any class you wanted. You just got whatever skills you wanted. One of those player created careers was crafting. You could make EVERYTHING in SWG. The NGE killed the player run econmy of SWG. It removed player created crafting classes. If your character had crafting skills, they were literally removed form your character. Becuase you couldn't spend your leveling on nothing but crafting, you had to roll a combat characters with preset skills and then could just craft stuff as a side profession. In fact a lot of players joined eve from SWG becuase they heard it was a game with the same complex in-depth level of crafting. EVE-O forums the week after SWG shut down "I don't mind the NGE combat style that much, but they also did away with a lot of that was still good in SWG (crafting and player economy and diversity of character development)". That's the 2nd post in the thread. More forums talking about how the NGe killed the player driven economy. By far, my favorite system was in SWG. Simply because of the diversity in how you could create an item, and how its quality would be affected. Starting with the experience tapes, they were upgrades you could attach to a piece of clothing (the sci-fi equivalent of en enchantment) to give you experience points. The more exp points you had, the more you could try to push the stats of said items up. removed with the NGE I miss the fact SWG had so many different classes you could take. I made my character in SWG as a craftsmen. I was a Master Artisian and Master Droid engineer. I loved creating houses, furniture, paintings, spaceports, and all the droids I could. I loved having my own shop, too. I think it was just the fact that SWG in the beginning had so much stuff to choose from. A lot of options are always win! In the old days, the crafting economy was 90% or more of the game. And much of the loot economy was for things like crafting enhancers, so that also supposrted crafting. Loot items to go in armor, loot items to go in weapons. Etc. Loot was a distant, distant second to crafting and the TCG was not yet a twinkle of greed in Smed's eye. Fast forward to today: Now, crafting is a distant third to both loot and TCG items. Go look at any of the trade forums for the truth of this. No decay, changes in game systems, entire classes of crafted items being removed from the game (and the classes that crafted them) Have I made my point clear yet? The fact you said you never meet someone that quit because they removed the player driven economy and crafting mechanics, for what is till considered the best crafting mmo ever made, shows you're complete lack of knowledge of the subject. Kill the player driven economy, KILL THE GAME!
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:48:00 - [204] Originally by: Mars Theran Actually .. I think the reason everyone is **ed, is likely because they invested in Scorps They are mad because many of them were convinced it wasn't going to happen like this, or this soon. On an unrelated note, I find it incredibly lolztastic if** the store was fully intended to only take Scorpion + Aurum = Painted Scorpion, that they would release it publicly without the functionality of that transfer. If it doesn't work, why release it early? They dragged Incursion releases across 4? months, they will drag Incarna content releases across the next 2? years. But this, they will release early, broken and it will violate everything the "dynamic player run economy" stands for. :lolccp: ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
mkint	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:48:00 - [205] Originally by: Jennifer Starling The CSM you al voted for approves and I tend to agree with them: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders. The chairman of the CSM is the leader of an alliance who joined the game in the first place to destroy it. It took them a while, but it looks like they might actually be succeeding.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:52:00 - [206] Originally by: mkint Originally by: Jennifer Starling The CSM you al voted for approves and I tend to agree with them: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders. The chairman of the CSM is the leader of an alliance who joined the game in the first place to destroy it. It took them a while, but it looks like they might actually be succeeding. now this is also somethign odd. During the alliance tournament the same man said the CSM talked them OUT of selling the ship before the fix went through. He was very clear o the fact that CSm convinced them to wait on releasing the ship until it worked for trading in more than just aurum. I for one am troubled by any lack of CSM posting on this topic... Next year people should vote in people me and Tippa. At least we'll tell you what the hell is going on.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:55:00 - [207] Originally by: MotherMoon Next year people should vote in people me and Tippa. I'm going to have to go on record here to say that you are completely insane. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:56:00 - [208] Originally by: Prince Kobol Yet every person I have ever spoken to about SW Galaxies said they left due to the changes in combat and the introducing of the Jedi Class, not crafting. Many of the people I know who are SWG refugees mourn the loss of the crafting system too - it was their way of carving a niche in the game, to be the one who knew which planet to go to, to get the specific resource required to make item X. The resources were seasonal too, so smart hunters would gather up large supplies of the seasonal resource, then wait until peak demand to sell them. Quote: When Turbine stated that they were going F2P and will have a cash store there was polls and threads where 1000's of players (and I do mean 1000's) voiced their objections, saying there would leave the game, said that the game would die and you know what, it made no difference, Turbine went ahead, broke their promise and Lotro now has more players and is making more money then ever. LOTRO isn't a heavily PvP game - in fact the more powerful you can make your character, the more people will want to play with you. EVE is a heavily PvP game - the more "special" stuff you can buy for your character with real world money, the less everyone else will be interested in playing against you, especially if they're the types sticking to the EVE economy as a source of their ISK. Quote: It wouldn't surprise me if the issues with the BPC is in fact false and that they have been planning this little test for a while. It's a bald-faced lie. They already sell BPCs through the LP stores. This looks to be a test to see how many people quit the game versus how much money they make selling ships through the Store. If they set their monitoring duration short enough, they'll be able to say, "hey, we can afford to lose 2% of the customer base every month if we keep selling this many ships." Of course, they're rigging the results by introducing CQ at the same time, so people who quit due to not having a system capable of running CQ can't also voice their concerns about the MT store. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.06.14 08:59:00 - [209] Would be really bad but Lets not jump to conclusions from what random people said until we know for sure. But it would be VERY bad if true ------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:03:00 - [210] Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 09:05:15 Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 09:03:36 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: MotherMoon Next year people should vote in people me and Tippa. I'm going to have to go on record here to say that you are completely insane. Tippa for CSM! come onnn, you me, Akita T, cat o ninetails! Tank CEO, jenny spitfire most epic CSM ever!
mkint	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:04:00 - [211] Originally by: Mara Rinn Quote: It wouldn't surprise me if the issues with the BPC is in fact false and that they have been planning this little test for a while. It's a bald-faced lie. They already sell BPCs through the LP stores. This looks to be a test to see how many people quit the game versus how much money they make selling ships through the Store. If they set their monitoring duration short enough, they'll be able to say, "hey, we can afford to lose 2% of the customer base every month if we keep selling this many ships." Of course, they're rigging the results by introducing CQ at the same time, so people who quit due to not having a system capable of running CQ can't also voice their concerns about the MT store. I for one have faith in CCP's incompetence. The way I see it, if EVE failscades and doesn't survive another year, it will make my life much simpler. There will be time to play some shallow throwaway games while I look for some developers who realize the players are more important than the accountants and marketing execs. I guarantee when EVE inevitably failscades, it won't be a CCP product I go to next. In the mean time, we get to sit back and watch the Derp Show of CCP's incompetence. Derp.
Illwill Bill Talu Shaya Talu Shaya Empire	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:06:00 - [212] Brb, unsubbing. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:07:00 - [213] I would hope, unlike SWG, if they lost half the playerbase in a month * seriously what happen when SWG lost it's player driven economy* CCP would REVERSE the changes. At least I like to think they would....
baltec1	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:09:00 - [214] Originally by: Prince Kobol Edited by: Prince Kobol on 14/06/2011 08:32:01 Yet every person I have ever spoken to about SW Galaxies said they left due to the changes in combat and the introducing of the Jedi Class, not crafting. I left because they removed crafting. Painting our ships I can agree with but this idea for spawning ships just stinks. This is the ONLY game that lets me have fun as an industrialist and trader and I will be damned if I let people destroy this one like they did with SWG. Not again.
Yldrad The Dandy KillerS	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:09:00 - [215] Edited by: Yldrad on 14/06/2011 09:10:03 Edited by: Yldrad on 14/06/2011 09:09:48 I don't understand one thing. They sayd they can't make a system with item exchange until fall. Hey guys you don't have to make it, it's already here: the LP Store. You can exchange an item for an other. Is it difficult to use this system or is it another legacy code that nobody at CCP know anymore?
moskowitz Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:10:00 - [216] yes...this could be the NGE (the end) it points in the direction that would cause lots of unsubs. from my perspective CCP is poised to intoduce MT more and more slowly..causing massive unsubs over time. i don't think anything could be as dramatic as what happened to swg. but they are tampering with game economics in a way that will make people look for other (or wait for..i am still waiting) sandboxes......they are diluting the fabric that sets EVE apart from the poisoned MMO industry. very sad to realize this. those DEVs that got layed off from sony must of gotten jobs with CCP...lol. and they are going exclusive with PS3...something smells bad.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:16:00 - [217] Originally by: moskowitz yes...this could be the NGE (the end) it points in the direction that would cause lots of unsubs. from my perspective CCP is poised to intoduce MT more and more slowly..causing massive unsubs over time. i don't think anything could be as dramatic as what happened to swg. yeah they would have to not only screw over the crafters in eve but add classes and exp to the game, and if your character is too diverse, delete your character overnight and give you a free "jovian" avatar, but make you start training you're sp from scratch. I still can't believe a game with eves skill point system got converted to a class based leveling system, the horror. and obviously I mean, come on, ccp isn't that daft.
Rellik B00n Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:21:00 - [218] CCP DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU THINK Lets be clear on that. CSM is a purely a political tool for CCP to allow them to ignore you even more. Cash for items is here to stay. personally Ive always allowed CCP to just do what they like with EvE - its not like I have a choice. In the end - after the dust settles - ill either be happy with cash for items or I wont. If I am ill keep playing, if im not ill quit EvE. Dead simple. There is no point at all coming on here screaming and shouting about it, it will change absolutely nothing. Just pick one of the two choices and do it. . -IRON MIKE IS hi sec lolwarrior-
Mica Swanhaven	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:21:00 - [219] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Prince Kobol Edited by: Prince Kobol on 14/06/2011 08:32:01 Yet every person I have ever spoken to about SW Galaxies said they left due to the changes in combat and the introducing of the Jedi Class, not crafting. I left because they removed crafting. hello SWG crafting brother o7 confirming I left SWG becuase of the crafting change.
Sarton Wells	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:23:00 - [220] Welp...for once I'd have to agree with the usual whiners. Making ships out of nothing would be a ridiculously bad decision. If they really go through with it I guess I'll have no choice but to unsub and hope they revert it so I can play again :( It would be best if everyone does that so it'll give CCP a big enough incentive. However I'm not convinced that they'll do that. So I won't be quitting (even temporary) until the ship for isk thingie comes online.
moskowitz Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:23:00 - [221] I COULD live with the MT transition if they... introduced DECAY of ships...LOL. that would make them WAY more money. and would help the poverty sickened industrialists that don't run missions, scam or become CEOs or station traders.
Digital Messiah	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:33:00 - [222] Originally by: Mica Swanhaven Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Prince Kobol Edited by: Prince Kobol on 14/06/2011 08:32:01 Yet every person I have ever spoken to about SW Galaxies said they left due to the changes in combat and the introducing of the Jedi Class, not crafting. I left because they removed crafting. hello SWG crafting brother o7 confirming I left SWG becuase of the crafting change. Wanderhomies unite? Also lets take into factor that CCP has stated a multitude of times that they will never use aurum or RMT for non-vanity items. The moment they do start selling gold edition abaddons with improved bonuses and implant sets that you can't get in game. This MMO will drop like a rock being pulled toward the largest orbital body in the universe. On a brighter note more money should mean faster and better content development. Balls in your court CCP don't fail us now! Quote: Don't Panic
Adrian Idaho	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:35:00 - [223] Edited by: Adrian Idaho on 14/06/2011 09:36:40 I'm okay with getting a custom Scorpion for Aurum, as long as you also have to pay a regular Scorpion (which is in turn removed from the game). Wait, what? It works without having to pay a Scorpion, and for several months at that?! What made you think that this is even a remotely good idea? I don't care whether 5 Scorpions will be generated out of thin air, but: you are killing part of one of the most defining and distinguishing concepts of EVE: the player-driven economy; why don't you just reintroduce shuttle NPC sell orders? you are undermining that little bit of trust and credibility which CCP has left once again you are rushing out half-finished, broken content (which leads to point #2 and to more bitterness among your players) my guess is that it won't stay at 5 Scorpions, but that hundreds or even thousands will be generated within the next months, depending on their price. Also, why is it so difficult to consume one regular Scorpion? You're doing the same thing in the LP store?! And why can't you generate a BPC with a specific number of runs? The same happens during invention and when copying BPOs. Oh, and a statement by CCP would be nice, too.
Arec Bardwin	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:37:00 - [224] Originally by: Sarton Wells Making ships out of nothing would be a ridiculously bad decision. Originally by: Rellik B00n CCP DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU THINK Cash for items is here to stay. THOSE WHO THINK THIS WILL END WITH VANITY ITEMS ARE GITS
Holy One Quiet.Storm	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:39:00 - [225] Edited by: Holy One on 14/06/2011 09:40:05 Originally by: Whim Aqayn Would unsubscribe and not look back. Not much else to be said here. So would a lot of people. The sad truth is, most people would go on anyway. And eve would probably not lose much revenue at the end of the day. They'd just replace this highly vocal, highly critical bittervet core with idiots from Hello Kitty who spend more money and are totally satisfied with endless half arsed pve expansions. Win for CCP. BBQ makes me hungry for more...
Black Dranzer Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:40:00 - [226] Don't worry guys, I'm sure this will be the last line that gets crossed! Yeah, think I'm going to let my subscription lapse this time. On the upside, fifteen bucks! Maybe I'll buy a game off of steam or something.
Mitchello	Posted - 2011.06.14 09:41:00 - [227] Originally by: MotherMoon Ranger1 you underestimate the abilities of eve players to break something ccp put in the game. It's just a fact that if you CAN reprocess it into minerals. they are in fact, placing a price cap on minerals. I mean this is why they removed shuttles from the NPC market all those years ago. They were making it so tritium had a hard set price cap. Why are they redoing what they used to consider a mistake? Don't get too worked up over Ranger1, he's just one of the usual brosef apologists. INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:02:00 - [228] Edited by: Serpents smile on 14/06/2011 10:03:17 Not much to say after having read the entire thread so far. Just want to add my voice of concern to this. I cannot believe CCP is this daft recreating a game breaking situation like when they introduced PI, got pre-warned by a lot of people, then just ignored it like they do so often and had to clean up their own mess afterwards. Forcing an item in, in a state that will have significant negative impact on the game once it is premature unnecessary released, is just plain inexcusable. The rush to release this, while waiting for a " 3 month later fix" (anyone believes that?), combined with a plain and obvious lie: Quote: In this first version of the store, we don't yet have support for BPCs. Specifically, we can't tell the BPC how many runs it has on it. So we can't use that as a way to sell the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship. makes me wonder if this is still the same game I fell in love with 4 years ago.
Aquana Abyss	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:03:00 - [229] I'd just like to add what a crap bunch of CSM we have to actually take it upon themselves to "ok" this for CCP when in fact it is completely not ok. Stupid, dumb fuxx should resign.
Holy One Quiet.Storm	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:11:00 - [230] Originally by: Aquana Abyss I'd just like to add what a crap bunch of CSM we have to actually take it upon themselves to "ok" this for CCP when in fact it is completely not ok. Stupid, dumb fuxx should resign. Free holiday is free. I do recall one particular member of the CSM resigning not long ago. Do you? BBQ makes me hungry for more...
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:11:00 - [231] Edited by: Nullity on 14/06/2011 10:11:44 Originally by: Aquana Abyss I'd just like to add what a crap bunch of CSM we have to actually take it upon themselves to "ok" this for CCP when in fact it is completely not ok. Stupid, dumb fuxx should resign. In their defense, what are they supposed to do? If CCP wants to do something, they're going to do it no matter what. CCP has clearly been wanting to implement MTs for quite a while now. Everyone who finds MTs distasteful is fighting a losing battle. Our only option is to find another MMO that captures the brilliance that EVE once had. It's almost poetic since, if I'm not mistaken, EVE itself was partly inspired by the early days of Ultima Online, before UO was made more mass market friendly.
Silas Cooper	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:14:00 - [232] Edited by: Silas Cooper on 14/06/2011 10:15:12 When they they didn't take proper care of RMT I didn't say anything, because I don't live in 0.0 so it didn't really affect me. When they introduced ships for cash I didn't say anything, because I'm not an industrialist so it didn't really affect me. When they introduced more MT and changed the game to be more like other MMO's I didn't say anything, because it didn't really affect me. Now it's a full item mall MMO with stuff that does affect gameplay (because accountants have a way of getting what they want in the end) and they totally changed gameplay to cater for the new player type they pulled in.... the game is no longer what it was and CCP pulled an NGE, and it DOES affect me. But now it's too late. If we let CCP "get away" with this crap it'll grow from bad to worse, in a few months they'll introduce something that DOES affect gameplay because it's "such a small step from what we already have". Introducing actual built ships for cash is a prime example of the new CCP not having the damnest clue of what they're doing. -- You can't cure stupid.
notabene Minmatar Superior Eve Engineering	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:16:00 - [233] This Originally by: Serpents smile Edited by: Serpents smile on 14/06/2011 10:03:17 Not much to say after having read the entire thread so far. Just want to add my voice of concern to this. .. makes me wonder if this is still the same game I fell in love with 4 years ago. But the equation is easy: if the loss of $ from the exodus of vet players < than profit from MT + new players then they won't give a f.... And honestly, why should they they are called CCP and not Mother Theresa. Sad fact is that there are very, very few companies, that are idealistic enought to put customers over profit. Only thing to do is unsub and move on. Done it b4, will do it again. (If...)
Di Mulle	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:17:00 - [234] When they talk about "we don't know how to make it with BPC bla bla" I can think only about two possible explanations. First, it is outright lie. Leaves me happy customer, sure. Second, CCP is basically incapable to code and to make just next to anything. When you look back, this has demonstrated itself lots of times already , and again is shown right now with presenting one locked room as a biggest leap in a game industry. They just can't deliver, no matter how hard they talk about that. Notice, not how hard they try. Leaves me customer with a simple conclusion - if there is nothing that can be made, probably there will be nothing for me to be the part of.
Aquana Abyss	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:18:00 - [235] Rubbish. They are there to represent the players : If they had one jot of integrity they would know the rage this would cause...especially after CCP "agree" to vanity items only. Magicing up a scorpion from nothing is not a vanity item. It has to do with them clearly publicly stating then (or now if it is a recent development) that CCP is wrong here in the minutes or on the forum and representing the players properly. And on this issue I'm sure it is a majority not just a minority who will be angry about CCP magicing up spaceships for cash.
Tsubutai The Tuskers	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:20:00 - [236] This should absolutely not go live as is. AUR for a BPC that requires a vanilla scorpion and produces a ship whose stats are identical to those of the vanilla version? Fine. Directly converting AUR to a new ship without requiring a plain ship and the investment of player time it represents? Unacceptable. If this really is a consequence of the cash shop system being incomplete, hold off on releasing it until it's finished.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:21:00 - [237] Originally by: notabene This Originally by: Serpents smile Edited by: Serpents smile on 14/06/2011 10:03:17 Not much to say after having read the entire thread so far. Just want to add my voice of concern to this. .. makes me wonder if this is still the same game I fell in love with 4 years ago. But the equation is easy: if the loss of $ from the exodus of vet players < than profit from MT + new players then they won't give a f.... And honestly, why should they they are called CCP and not Mother Theresa. Sad fact is that there are very, very few companies, that are idealistic enought to put customers over profit. Only thing to do is unsub and move on. Done it b4, will do it again. (If...) Because if it happened, then 30% of the playerbase would just leave. that 30% being industal players. No reason to build ships, mean they basicly killa career. This isn't wow whining about some class being buffed, or MT store adding non-vanity items. This is about directly replacing player made ships with an NPC store. You will lose players when they log into find their career has been destroyed on them. like if they removed ammar ship, ammar pilots will leave. seriously this is piety bs change, if you can reprocess the ship, the game is done for, literally.
Aquana Abyss	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:26:00 - [238] Originally by: Tsubutai This should absolutely not go live as is. AUR for a BPC that requires a vanilla scorpion and produces a ship whose stats are identical to those of the vanilla version? Fine. Directly converting AUR to a new ship without requiring a plain ship and the investment of player time it represents? Unacceptable. If this really is a consequence of the cash shop system being incomplete, hold off on releasing it until it's finished. This...exactly this. And if the CSM can't stand firm and tell CCP that is how it is then they take their politicians roles too seriously and have become just as corrupt and malleable as any to a bit of schmoozing after a free holiday. Scrap the CSM if this goes through.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:26:00 - [239] Originally by: Mars Theran Minerals are injected into the market out of nowhere everyday; or did you think players actually produced the asteroids? And then it just turns into a ship all by itself? Oh wait, I forgot who I was talking to. Originally by: Mars Theran Make all the stuff you want, people will still buy it. The market drives this game? When? I thought it was driven by players pursuing hobbies that included playing EVE, or at least by hampsters running around a mill in a cage. Here we have an example of equivocation, used to create red herrings and strawmans, notice the squinty eyes and self satisfied sneer of the user. Originally by: Mars Theran I'm sure there is a lot you understand about EVE, but the way you go about incessently repeating the same old stuff is absolutely mind boggling. Says the BS artist that repeats the same useless crap thread after thread after thread. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:27:00 - [240] Originally by: Tsubutai If this really is a consequence of the cash shop system being incomplete, hold off on releasing it until it's finished. As, Di Mulle said, they're either lying or grossly incompetent. Originally by: Aquana Abyss And on this issue I'm sure it is a majority not just a minority who will be angry about CCP magicing up spaceships for cash. I'm completely against MTs, but I'd bet a majority of people don't care. We're in a new age of the video game industry. Developers now let players essentially cheat in games in exchange for some cash. It's tacky, and sleazy, but it's clear that consumers approve of it.
Kharmino	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:28:00 - [241] CCP WTF?!?!?!?!
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:29:00 - [242] Originally by: Kharmino CCP WTF?!?!?!?! Don't act too surprised. The writing for this has been on the wall for a while.
notabene Minmatar Superior Eve Engineering	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:31:00 - [243] Originally by: MotherMoon snip Because if it happened, then 30% of the playerbase would just leave. that 30% being industal players. No reason to build ships, mean they basicly killa career. This isn't wow whining about some class being buffed, or MT store adding non-vanity items. snip So what? If they still make a higher profit, why would they care? Besides CCP having other projects besides EVE to make $$ with. If you look at the turnover and profits CCP made way back in '07/'08, with a smaller customer base and before PLEX etc..., then I don't think they'll have sleepless nights about vet players leaving EVE.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:32:00 - [244] Originally by: MotherMoon if you can reprocess the ship, the game is done for, literally. Even if you cannot reprocess it, it creates a ship outside the industry/ market being involved. Introducing it in its current state is the dumbest thing they could do. They should wait untill they properly can implement ship paintings in the store. What's the rush here anyway? Oh about the current CSM, I agree. They're a joke. Only in for the free vacation. Mynxee would had raged about this to no end. Bah. Freeloaders.
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:34:00 - [245] They should go for the big bucks right out of the gate and sell exhumers. ducks /o\
Eklesiastico	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:36:00 - [246] Originally by: notabene If you look at the turnover and profits CCP made way back in '07/'08, with a smaller customer base and before PLEX etc..., then I don't think they'll have sleepless nights about vet players leaving EVE. I bet that vets aren't the only ones leaving at that one.
Myra2007 Millstone Industries	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:38:00 - [247] Color me NOT surprised. The biggest error you can make now is to think that this really is the worst thing CCP could do. Believe me they will find ways to make it even worse. -- Originally by: CCP Elais It was a great Frankenstein moment [...] to see the forum [...] come alive.

CCP Zinfandel	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:42:00 - [248] For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will.

Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:44:00 - [249] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel It can't do trade-in's. Dont be stupid. If the automated LP Stores can do tradeins, so can you. Just be honest and say that it isnt your priority at the moment - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN!
voiddragon	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:46:00 - [250] Edited by: voiddragon on 14/06/2011 10:46:56 Wow, a lot of angry people in this thread who misunderstood something. Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: CCP Zinfandel It can't do trade-in's. Dont be stupid. If the automated LP Stores can do tradeins, so can you. Just be honest and say that it isnt your priority at the moment Uh, he was saying that the store as it is right now can't do trade-ins? Not that it outright can't ever do trade-ins.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:47:00 - [251] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. That's an interesting assumption. How much will it cost? Can it be reprocessed? Will it leave a wreck? And, perhapse more interestingly, what's the rush? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:48:00 - [252] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Stuff It's the principle, it's the trust of your player base, it's added skepticism about this entire MT/Aurum/Dust business. A temporary solution, to a technical problem, is not solved by alienating your customers, no matter how "cool" you think it [IW Scorp] is. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:48:00 - [253] Edited by: Nullity on 14/06/2011 10:49:10 CCP Zinfandel, the playerbase can wait on the new ship skin. We're in no hurry to get it (this is especially true when you consider the stuff we actually are in a hurry to get). The only ones who seem to be in a hurry to get it into the game are the people are CCP. Do us a favor and do not release it until you can make it a proper vanity item.
Myra2007 Millstone Industries	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:49:00 - [254] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel So I presented our dilemma to them. So the dilemma is that you would have to wait 3 more months to get returns from that feature? Hell no, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. My condolences, man. Seriously. Between a rock and a hard place like WOW. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. Thereby making the already existing ships a "limited edition" greatly increasing their market value? I'm sure everyone who planned on getting one early loves this idea. -- Originally by: CCP Elais It was a great Frankenstein moment [...] to see the forum [...] come alive.
voiddragon	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:50:00 - [255] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: CCP Zinfandel But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. That's an interesting assumption. How much will it cost? Can it be reprocessed? Will it leave a wreck? And, perhapse more interestingly, what's the rush? Is it so hard to understand that it's a normal ship with a different texture? xD It'll reprocess, get blown up, etc the same amount as a normal scorpion. I actually wonder why there is so much hate for this at the moment since people have petitioned making customisable ship skins for years and now that they're introducing a system that will allow it, you over-react and use mis-information to boycott it.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:50:00 - [256] Edited by: Nullity on 14/06/2011 10:51:53 Originally by: voiddragon Originally by: Tippia Originally by: CCP Zinfandel But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. That's an interesting assumption. How much will it cost? Can it be reprocessed? Will it leave a wreck? And, perhapse more interestingly, what's the rush? Is it so hard to understand that it's a normal ship with a different texture? xD It'll reprocess, get blown up, etc the same amount as a normal scorpion. I actually wonder why there is so much hate for this at the moment since people have petitioned making customisable ship skins for years and now that they're introducing a system that will allow it, you over-react and use mis-information to boycott it. It's a normal ship that will be spawned into the game by out-of-game forces. This is completely against the core principles of the game. Not even WOW has a feature like this as their MTs are all vanity (as far as I know). Originally by: Myra2007 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel So I presented our dilemma to them. So the dilemma is that you would have to wait 3 more months to get returns from that feature? Hell no, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. My condolences, man. Seriously. Between a rock and a hard place like WOW. Yes. I too would like to give my condolences to CCP who is working tirelessly to get our money in new and exciting ways.
Adrian Idaho	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:51:00 - [257] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. Then why are you releasing it? Haven't you learned anything from past debacles where you rushed content? To quote Tippia, "What's the rush?" û indeed, what is the rush? If you want us to test it, just put it on Sisi. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. Hold on, I'll save that somewhere and make it my sig in 3-4 months (provided I'll still be subscribed then).
Vastek Non	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:52:00 - [258] Edited by: Vastek Non on 14/06/2011 10:54:44 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. Thank you for confirming that CCP no longer understands how/why customers play this game. Producers produce because there is a/profit and b/ a sense of accomplishment. This takes away from that sense of accomplishment. Oh, and the customers don't trust you. Look up 'Thin edge of the wedge' - that is what it is. The death of EVE has started, for real this time. Edit: If you so desperately need a new 'bling' ship in the game, why not have it so it can be produced by EVE capsuleers? I know this question won't be answered - the answer is above... 'thin edge of the wedge'. Edit 2: Did you have to hire ex Sony devs to make this insane a decision, or was it a special accountant run training school?
Serpents smile	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:52:00 - [259] Edited by: Serpents smile on 14/06/2011 10:52:47 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? YES! Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" NO! Very simple. No forum rage either. What's 3 months if you want to do something PROPERLY!? Ps: thank you for chiming in.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:54:00 - [260] Originally by: Serpents smile Very simple. No forum rage either. What's 3 months if you want to do something PROPERLY It's less time to make money from something that will surely make CCP loads. The only cost is the integrity of their flagship product.
voiddragon	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:54:00 - [261] Originally by: Nullity Edited by: Nullity on 14/06/2011 10:51:53 Originally by: voiddragon Originally by: Tippia Originally by: CCP Zinfandel But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. That's an interesting assumption. How much will it cost? Can it be reprocessed? Will it leave a wreck? And, perhapse more interestingly, what's the rush? Is it so hard to understand that it's a normal ship with a different texture? xD It'll reprocess, get blown up, etc the same amount as a normal scorpion. I actually wonder why there is so much hate for this at the moment since people have petitioned making customisable ship skins for years and now that they're introducing a system that will allow it, you over-react and use mis-information to boycott it. It's a normal ship that will be spawned into the game by out-of-game forces. This is completely against the core principles of the game. Not even WOW has a feature like this as their MTs are all vanity (as far as I know). But it's not... it's a trade-in... 1 scorpion for a painted scorpion.
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:54:00 - [262] Edited by: Rykuss on 14/06/2011 10:56:32 Originally by: voiddragon Originally by: Tippia Originally by: CCP Zinfandel But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. That's an interesting assumption. How much will it cost? Can it be reprocessed? Will it leave a wreck? And, perhapse more interestingly, what's the rush? Is it so hard to understand that it's a normal ship with a different texture? xD It'll reprocess, get blown up, etc the same amount as a normal scorpion. I actually wonder why there is so much hate for this at the moment since people have petitioned making customisable ship skins for years and now that they're introducing a system that will allow it, you over-react and use mis-information to boycott it. Misinformation? Where?! He just confirmed it. It cannot accept a trade-in. Seriously, are you blind or just stupid?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:55:00 - [263] Edited by: Tippia on 14/06/2011 10:55:35 Originally by: voiddragon Is it so hard to understand that it's a normal ship with a different texture? No. It is not hard to understand. It is, in fact, the root of all the worries. If all it is is a normal Scorp with its "use texture" set to 1 rather than 0, then it will indeed cause all the problems presented in this thread. Quote: I actually wonder why there is so much hate for this at the moment since people have petitioned making customisable ship skins for years Because what people wanted was customisable ships, not a cash-store that gives you minerals. Quote: But it's not... it's a trade-in... 1 scorpion for a painted scorpion. No, it's not. Did you not read the post above? It can't do trade-ins yet! ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:55:00 - [264] Originally by: voiddragon Edited by: voiddragon on 14/06/2011 10:46:56 Wow, a lot of angry people in this thread who misunderstood something. Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: CCP Zinfandel It can't do trade-in's. Dont be stupid. If the automated LP Stores can do tradeins, so can you. Just be honest and say that it isnt your priority at the moment Uh, he was saying that the store as it is right now can't do trade-ins? Not that it outright can't ever do trade-ins. And i'm asking the question why the statement if they ALREADY HAVE A SYSTEM IN PLACE TO TRADE ITEMS by way of LP stores. It cant take 3 months to copy how the LP store works - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN!
Hyperforce99 Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:56:00 - [265] As long as its just basically paying $ for a paintjob there is no impact on the actual game. And is selling a ship bought with PLEX for ISK any different then selling PLEX for ISK. (*differences in value not withstanding) --------------------------------------------- Somewhere beyond happyness and sadness, I need to calculate what creates my own madness o/
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:56:00 - [266] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Then it should be postponed Originally by: CCP Zinfandel If we need to go even slower, we can and will. Prove it, do so! ------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
Creepy Goat Collateral.	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:57:00 - [267] So much big text in this thread. So much ignorance. I for one can't wait for all the shiny new ships that AURUM will bring. I love collecting pointless stuff. oh I forgot my big text Give me chrome and white Amarr ships! ----
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:58:00 - [268] Originally by: Hyperforce99 As long as its just basically paying $ for a paintjob there is no impact on the actual game. And is selling a ship bought with PLEX for ISK any different then selling PLEX for ISK. (*differences in value not withstanding) It's not cash for a paintjob. It's cash for a ship that is magically spawned.
notabene Minmatar Superior Eve Engineering	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:58:00 - [269] Originally by: Creepy Goat ... Give me chrome and PINK Amarr ships! fixed it for you
Evelgrivion Gunpoint Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.06.14 10:58:00 - [270] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 14/06/2011 11:03:14 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. Frankly, I would rather wait the three months. There is no rush among us to acquire these shiny scorpions, and I'd much rather see that there's not even the possibility of risk to the game economy.
Normal citizen	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:00:00 - [271] Well, these ship will be available through isk, however, I think it's stupid to require aurum to begin with. If these ships are just reskins then I'd rather have them as isk sinks. or maybe being isk sinks/aurum sinks.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:00:00 - [272] Originally by: Hyperforce99 As long as its just basically paying $ for a paintjob there is no impact on the actual game. And that's the entire problem: the store in the state it will be released does not support that. To do that, it would have to be able to take trade-ins: inject AUR+Scorp → receive Scorp + Paint. Nice and balanced, AUR is replaced by/exchanged for paint. Instead, we get a store that has operates on the principle inject AUR ↠ receive Scorp + Paint. Not balanced. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Scott Ryder Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:01:00 - [273] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. CCP Zinfandel Can you now answer the large thread about where faction tower bpcs has gone? Incase you have missed it, I shall link http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1496995 Thank you good sir :)
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:01:00 - [274] Edited by: Nullity on 14/06/2011 11:01:40 Originally by: Evelgrivion Frankly, I would rather wait the three months. There is no rush among us to acquire these shiny scorpions, and I'd much rather see that there's not even the possibility of risk to the game economy. So the most wanted feature in EVE is not new skins for ships that cost money? Then, my word! CCP must be doing this solely for a quick buck, and not to satisfy their customer's requests. Originally by: Normal citizen Well, these ship will be available through isk, however, I think it's stupid to require aurum to begin with. If these ships are just reskins then I'd rather have them as isk sinks. or maybe being isk sinks/aurum sinks. It'd be a great ISK sink, but it'll never happen. Aurum is too profitable.
Janos Saal The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:02:00 - [275] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. **** you.
Mitchello	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:02:00 - [276] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it ... If we need to go even slower, we can and will. CCP does not commit without allocating resources. Sure they screw up, but the Exchange is a cornerstone element and would not have been engaged on for development if it had not been absolutely prioritised for completion. I'm sorry, but this is just completely against how we've seen CCP engage on these things. So yes, I am calling bull**** on that. It smells much more than someone - again - upstairs wiggling things for a little experiment since I would be extremely surprised if these things were not already committed. That is obviously a worst case scenario, which I honestly hope to be incorrect. But it would not be a first time to occur. We've seen that over the years, time and time again. Stone tablets. At best, there's another glitch in communications here. And somewhere in the middle is another pending screwup with the translation from planning to execution interrupted by stone tablets and little kingdoms. It is these things that cost CCP's its brand integrity. Come on people, you're in business, you're selling a service which is enabled through emotional connect and in service models the baseline economic requirement of trust is sacrosanct. Stop thinking retail. The last statement kind of says it all. I know, I am slightly taking it out of context here for appearance, but it is still within context of the bigger picture. They will do it, they will go all the way, they will if they have to take it slower but it will not stop them. Step by step. And on a basis of .. what exactly? I hope to Jove that Hilmar was not serious in his statement during the Alliance Tournament this weekend. We see other people do it, we have to follow, or we get left behind? That is much more an emotional argument than it is a strategic argument. Yes, the latter is also present, but with the first present it is all too easy to place questionmarks at prioritisation on that level. And considering we've seen the traps of "awesome, cause of awesome" and "big, cause of big" and "if it looks good, it is good enough" that really, really worries me. Business, yes, but proper business. Does CCP really strive to be different, or is it all just empty talk. INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
Vastek Non	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:03:00 - [277] Edited by: Vastek Non on 14/06/2011 11:06:19 Originally by: Nullity Edited by: Nullity on 14/06/2011 11:01:40 Originally by: Evelgrivion Frankly, I would rather wait the three months. There is no rush among us to acquire these shiny scorpions, and I'd much rather see that there's not even the possibility of risk to the game economy. So the most wanted feature in EVE is not new skins for ships that cost money? Then, my word! CCP must be doing this solely for a quick buck, and not to satisfy their customer's requests. Originally by: Normal citizen Well, these ship will be available through isk, however, I think it's stupid to require aurum to begin with. If these ships are just reskins then I'd rather have them as isk sinks. or maybe being isk sinks/aurum sinks. It'd be a great ISK sink, but it'll never happen. Aurum is too profitable. CCP doing this soley for a quick buck - the calamity. I mean, they have basically denied it, so it can't be true..right...? Edit: Actually some have denied, some have basically confirmed. They have reached the stage of being so pathetic that even their lies require patching FFS.
Jin Endashi	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:04:00 - [278] Edited by: Jin Endashi on 14/06/2011 11:04:31 Now forgive me for not reading through to the last page (got to page 6 before i had to respond.) If the problem is making minerals appear out of thin air for $$$, then the solution is VERY simple. Just make it so you cant reprocess it. You buy it, and you've got it, unless you trash it (lol), it goes pop, or you sell it. end of story.
Oarta	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:05:00 - [279] I think its fine they go ahead and introduce the ship. It is one ship, so the entire manufacturing industry isn't going to collapse and it is only temporary. What it will do is give them a sense of how many people are willing to pay or use Aurum to purchase cosmetic items. This I think would be a good thing to know, so they figure out how much budget they can allocate to further custom designs. Knowing EVE players and thinkers I could imagine a lot of manufacturing people might be upset if they planned ahead and started to stockpile T1 scorpions in anticipation of the jump in demand. Taking that into account added with all the sky is falling predictions, we should just wait to see how it actually plays out. Again, it's one ship which they can test and track what is done.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:06:00 - [280] Originally by: voiddragon ... why there is so much hate for this at the moment since people have petitioned making customisable ship skins for years and now that they're introducing a system that will allow it ... This is a tangent, but these are not customizable, they're canned skins. Many people had hoped for a long time, players would do the creative aspects. CCP could have found a way to make it doable in-game, in ways that people would not be flying a giant pink thorax. Or they could have set up a community managed way that only the best full UV map player created textures would be submitted for CCPs final approval. They could have placed MTs on that activity. They choose otherwise. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:06:00 - [281] Originally by: Jin Endashi Edited by: Jin Endashi on 14/06/2011 11:04:31 Now forgive me for not reading through to the last page (got to page 6 before i had to respond.) If the problem is making minerals appear out of thin air for $$$, then the solution is VERY simple. Just make it so you cant reprocess it. You buy it, and you've got it, unless you trash it (lol), it goes pop, or you sell it. end of story. That doesn't solve the problem as the root of the problem is that someone pays CCP real cash to magically spawn a Scorpion for them. This bypasses all normal game mechanics.
Jin Endashi	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:07:00 - [282] Originally by: Nullity That doesn't solve the problem as the root of the problem is that someone pays CCP real cash to magically spawn a Scorpion for them. This bypasses all normal game mechanics. What do you think happens when someone buys a plex?
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:08:00 - [283] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Hyperforce99 As long as its just basically paying $ for a paintjob there is no impact on the actual game. And that's the entire problem: the store in the state it will be released does not support that. To do that, it would have to be able to take trade-ins: inject AUR+Scorp → receive Scorp + Paint. Nice and balanced, AUR is replaced by/exchanged for paint. Instead, we get a store that has operates on the principle inject AUR ↠ receive Scorp + Paint. Not balanced. What is very suspicious about CCP concerning this revelation is they already have the logic for Ship + Isk --> new ship. It's the LP store. You can't convince me they can't duplicate and modify that logic EASILY to accept aurum instead of LP.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:08:00 - [284] Originally by: Nullity Originally by: Jin Endashi Edited by: Jin Endashi on 14/06/2011 11:04:31 Now forgive me for not reading through to the last page (got to page 6 before i had to respond.) If the problem is making minerals appear out of thin air for $$$, then the solution is VERY simple. Just make it so you cant reprocess it. You buy it, and you've got it, unless you trash it (lol), it goes pop, or you sell it. end of story. That doesn't solve the problem as the root of the problem is that someone pays CCP real cash to magically spawn a Scorpion for them. This bypasses all normal game mechanics. And this is what it boils down to. Fix your shop to accept a Scorpion + AUR to get your newly skinned Scorpion and all the rage simply melts away - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN!
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:09:00 - [285] Originally by: Jin Endashi Originally by: Nullity That doesn't solve the problem as the root of the problem is that someone pays CCP real cash to magically spawn a Scorpion for them. This bypasses all normal game mechanics. What do you think happens when someone buys a plex? It doesn't bypass the mechanics of the game. When someone purchases a PLEX, they engage in real money trading (RMT). CCP, in exchange for real money, spawns the person a PLEX item, which is essentially a promise that CCP will give whoever redeems it 30 days of game time. The ISK people use to purchase PLEXes, however, was all obtained through normal in game means.
Evelgrivion Gunpoint Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:09:00 - [286] Originally by: Jin Endashi Originally by: Nullity That doesn't solve the problem as the root of the problem is that someone pays CCP real cash to magically spawn a Scorpion for them. This bypasses all normal game mechanics. What do you think happens when someone buys a plex? I've gone over this time and time again, but just just for you, I'll do it again. PLEX does not create anything. PLEX, as an in-game economic tool, is a mechanism through which players can subsidize other player's subscription time for ISK. That ISK does not come from nowhere; it has to be acquired within the mechanics of the game. When you pay Aurum to magically spawn a reskinned scorpion out of thin air, the ordinary mechanics of acquisition, mining and manufacturing, are completely bypassed.

CCP Zinfandel	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:10:00 - [287] OK, here's a little more information that I had not provided. We aren't offering everything in the store on day one. We are rolling stuff in slowly. I had scheduled the Ishukone Watch Scorpion for late August. It will already be in the game and finished. It just won't be sold for months. And if it's a problem, we won't even start then. Let's wait a few months and see if the right thing to do is to keep waiting or roll it out. The easiest way I can ask you guys is to ask the CSM. I will do that first and see what they say. I have to go jump in some meetings and won't be able to follow this thread for probably the rest of the day.

Calistai Huranu Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:10:00 - [288] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 14/06/2011 11:03:14 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel :ccp: Frankly, I would rather wait the three months. There is no rush among us to acquire these shiny scorpions, and I'd much rather see that there's not even the possibility of risk to the game economy. +1 This, just how hard is it to commit to "Excellence" and release stuff when it's finished not half arsed..
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:11:00 - [289] Originally by: Jin Endashi Edited by: Jin Endashi on 14/06/2011 11:04:31 Now forgive me for not reading through to the last page (got to page 6 before i had to respond.) If the problem is making minerals appear out of thin air for $$$, then the solution is VERY simple. Just make it so you cant reprocess it. You buy it, and you've got it, unless you trash it (lol), it goes pop, or you sell it. end of story. Betting their shop can't do that either.
DeBingJos Minmatar Jukebox Warriors	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:11:00 - [290] Faith in CCP in 2009 : LOW \|------------------------------^--\| HIGH Faith in CCP in 2011 : LOW \|^--------------------------------\| HIGH What happened CCP? I'd love to hear what the real devs think about this BS. I even consider myself to be a fanboy but lately I seem to agree more with the bitter vets. Get your act together and don't make false promises. Just state the obvious and get it done with: You are turning EVE into a pay2win type of game. It's your game, you can do wathever you want with it, but just state you intentions in a clear way.
Jin Endashi	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:12:00 - [291] Originally by: Nullity It doesn't bypass the mechanics of the game. When someone purchases a PLEX, they engage in real money trading (RMT). CCP, in exchange for real money, spawns the person a PLEX item, which is essentially a promise that CCP will give whoever redeems it 30 days of game time. The ISK people use to purchase PLEXes, however, was all obtained through normal in game means. So, If i give CCP $$$ to spawn me a PLEX (an in-game item) out of thin air, Its different than if i were to pay CCP $$$ to spawn me a skinned scorpion (an in-game item)out of thin air?? Forgive me, but that logic is beyond me.
DeBingJos Minmatar Jukebox Warriors	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:13:00 - [292] Originally by: Jin Endashi So, If i give CCP $$$ to spawn me a PLEX (an in-game item) out of thin air, Its different than if i were to pay CCP $$$ to spawn me a skinned scorpion (an in-game item)out of thin air?? Forgive me, but that logic is beyond me. Then I suggest you read this topic from the start, that has been explained many times.
Mithfindel Zenko Incorporated	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:14:00 - [293] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. As a note, yes it can do BPCs and trade-ins - by selling "credit" or tokens instead of the ship in question. These can then be traded in the LP store for the BPC and/or the ship in question. Admitted, it is a bit kludgy, but so is, say, buying Caldari battleships from an Amarrian jewelry/luxury store, which I think was the back story for the RMT window. (So in that regard, getting a token and then buying the paintjob from the appropriate corp would actually make a lot more sense.) But I guess this feature will be lobotomized by the CCP after being exploited to hell and back by players before quietly swept under the rug. I am sorry, but the implementation of key features on past patches (faction warfare, planetary interaction, new sovereignty... the list goes on) is not exactly convincing.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:14:00 - [294] Edited by: Tippia on 14/06/2011 11:15:46 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel We aren't offering everything in the store on day one. We are rolling stuff in slowly. I had scheduled the Ishukone Watch Scorpion for late August. It will already be in the game and finished. It just won't be sold for months. And if it's a problem, we won't even start then. Ok. It's a problem. No "if"s, no "but"s ù it's a problem. In fact, injecting items into the economy out of nowhere is a problem, almost by very definition. If you can wait, do so. Good luck with the meetings. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:14:00 - [295] Originally by: Jin Endashi Originally by: Nullity It doesn't bypass the mechanics of the game. When someone purchases a PLEX, they engage in real money trading (RMT). CCP, in exchange for real money, spawns the person a PLEX item, which is essentially a promise that CCP will give whoever redeems it 30 days of game time. The ISK people use to purchase PLEXes, however, was all obtained through normal in game means. So, If i give CCP $$$ to spawn me a PLEX (an in-game item) out of thin air, Its different than if i were to pay CCP $$$ to spawn me a skinned scorpion (an in-game item)out of thin air?? Forgive me, but that logic is beyond me. If that logic is beyond you, then i advice you to stop posting, because logic is clearly not your fortT - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN!
Evelgrivion Gunpoint Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:16:00 - [296] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 14/06/2011 11:16:39 Double post. Delete me plx.
Mithfindel Zenko Incorporated	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:16:00 - [297] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel OK, here's a little more information that I had not provided. We aren't offering everything in the store on day one. We are rolling stuff in slowly. I had scheduled the Ishukone Watch Scorpion for late August. It will already be in the game and finished. It just won't be sold for months. And if it's a problem, we won't even start then. Let's wait a few months and see if the right thing to do is to keep waiting or roll it out. The easiest way I can ask you guys is to ask the CSM. I will do that first and see what they say. I have to go jump in some meetings and won't be able to follow this thread for probably the rest of the day. Done when ready sounds like it is making sense. Or if the new gadget can't do all, you don't need to forget the bag of old ones you've stuffed into the darkest corner of your garage - though some of them might need some oiling and tuning before they work properly.
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:17:00 - [298] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel OK, here's a little more information that I had not provided. We aren't offering everything in the store on day one. We are rolling stuff in slowly. I had scheduled the Ishukone Watch Scorpion for late August. It will already be in the game and finished. It just won't be sold for months. And if it's a problem, we won't even start then. Let's wait a few months and see if the right thing to do is to keep waiting or roll it out. The easiest way I can ask you guys is to ask the CSM. I will do that first and see what they say. I have to go jump in some meetings and won't be able to follow this thread for probably the rest of the day. Oh there's already a thread up awaiting a response from the CSM.
Sarton Wells	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:17:00 - [299] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel And if it's a problem, we won't even start then. At the very least make it cost isk as well as Aurum. It still won't be the ideal solution but it will at least lessen the impact on the market. Although it still screws manufacturers since it'll still be creating something out of nothing and entirely bypassing them. It would be in everyone's best interest to just wait with releasing the ship until the aurum shop can make trade-ins. No amount of money made with this change will be able to compensate for the number of people quitting over this.
Mitchello	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:18:00 - [300] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel OK, here's a little more information that I had not provided. We aren't offering everything in the store on day one. We are rolling stuff in slowly. I had scheduled the Ishukone Watch Scorpion for late August. It will already be in the game and finished. It just won't be sold for months. And if it's a problem, we won't even start then. Let's wait a few months and see if the right thing to do is to keep waiting or roll it out. The easiest way I can ask you guys is to ask the CSM. I will do that first and see what they say. I have to go jump in some meetings and won't be able to follow this thread for probably the rest of the day. Wait, it gets difficult because whatever the reasons and causes may be they are unchecked for scenarios of consequences in both perception and perspective management, and you point people to a CSM which does not communicate, has chosen to have no pressure management and is 99% under NDA thus preventing any meaningful interaction that could compensate for the communicative issue here on the side of CCP? Please, don't take this personal, that is not how it is intended. It is clear to us that position != person, but it does not take a genius to see that there is a set of huge disconnects here. On all sides of all picket white fences. I hope those meetings shed more light. On the side, I find it very interesting that on each instance of communication on the topic of MT, the discussion of vanity vs convenience vs power items is avoided, and always substituted for comments like "wait, before we continue another step". Honestly, if it comes to such things, just say it how it is, honesty and openness can and always will beat all. INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:19:00 - [301] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 14/06/2011 11:19:41 Originally by: DeBingJos You are turning EVE into a pay2win type of game. What? That's already beeing the case since PLEX. Still have to see any proposal or idea that's more "pay to win" than RL Cash --> PLEX --> ISK --> 80 million SP character and hangars full of T2 ships. Whatever has been proposed thus far is peanuts compared to this option that strangly no-one seems to mind at all. You're really a weird and inconsistent bunch!
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:19:00 - [302] If I kill someone in one of these Ishukone Watch Scorpions, does it say Scorpion or Ishukone Watch Scorpion on the kill mail?
Oarta	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:19:00 - [303] Originally by: DeBingJos Originally by: Jin Endashi So, If i give CCP $$$ to spawn me a PLEX (an in-game item) out of thin air, Its different than if i were to pay CCP $$$ to spawn me a skinned scorpion (an in-game item)out of thin air?? Forgive me, but that logic is beyond me. Then I suggest you read this topic from the start, that has been explained many times. Its more of a perception thing. Yes, a Plex doesn't spawn a direct product, but it can sold for ISK purchase products. While this in theory sounds good it can also be said the Plex is purchased by a BOT player who uses a program to 'magically spawn' minerals or ISK by running 23/7. But again, it was stated to be a test for a short period of time. In fact if anything, if it does go into testing and CCP sees they are simply being used to Recycle into minerals it will act as an obstacle to ever implementing direct good for cash creation.
Raid'En	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:22:00 - [304] Edited by: Raid''En on 14/06/2011 11:27:30 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Let's wait a few months and see if the right thing to do is to keep waiting or roll it out. The easiest way I can ask you guys is to ask the CSM. I will do that first and see what they say. wait... did they listen to the opinion ?! o_O well given we'll have clothes to test your system i don't really see the need for ONE ship not ready... better finish it first. btw if what you were preparing wasn't requiring anything, there were a big hole ; on nullsec, you are defender, you need more ships ? simply take some ishukione BS on the store, will be available immeditatly... no need to manufacture, no need to haul... and that's horrible. you really need to finish your system first before adding something like a ship (or modules) however guys just wondering ; what about adding some ships models from the old create a starship as a "repaint" of current ships ? just than it will not be only the color like what you're preparing, but the whole model
DeBingJos Minmatar Jukebox Warriors	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:23:00 - [305] Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 14/06/2011 11:19:41 Originally by: DeBingJos You are turning EVE into a pay2win type of game. What? That's already beeing the case since PLEX. Still have to see any proposal or idea that's more "pay to win" than RL Cash --> PLEX --> ISK --> 80 million SP character and hangars full of T2 ships. Whatever has been proposed thus far is peanuts compared to this option that strangly no-one seems to mind at all. You're really a weird and inconsistent bunch! I don't like PLEX either, but PLEX does not bypass a lot of existing professions. I can sell a plex for isk and buy a ship with that isk, but someone had to grind for that isk and someone had to manufacture that ship.
Maverick2011 Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:25:00 - [306] Well, theres always the new Star Wars MMORPG coming up in case CCP decided to make EVE a Pay to Win game.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:26:00 - [307] Originally by: Jennifer Starling What? That's already beeing the case since PLEX. Still have to see any proposal or idea that's more "pay to win" than RL Cash --> PLEX --> ISK --> 80 million SP character and hangars full of T2 ships. Whatever has been proposed thus far is peanuts compared to this option that strangly no-one seems to mind at all. You're really a weird and inconsistent bunch! http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1525143&page=1#27 The Real Space Initiative - V7
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:28:00 - [308] Originally by: Maverick2011 Well, theres always the new Star Wars MMORPG coming up in case CCP decided to make EVE a Pay to Win game. That game is going to be no better. There are no other games like EVE on the market, and there won't be for a long time.
Maplestone	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:28:00 - [309] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) Out of curiousity, what was wrong with the loyalty point store code? Conceptually, aurum store gear sounds like a different kind of faction gear and aurum are like loyalty points. why have a whole new set of code to do essentially the same job?
Vastek Non	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:32:00 - [310] Originally by: Maplestone Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) Out of curiousity, what was wrong with the loyalty point store code? Conceptually, aurum store gear sounds like a different kind of faction gear and aurum are like loyalty points. why have a whole new set of code to do essentially the same job? The LP store doesn't allow RMT for short term profit. It also requires in game effort to obtain those LP, thus its not what CCP had in mind.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:33:00 - [311] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 14/06/2011 11:34:24 Originally by: Maplestone Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) Out of curiousity, what was wrong with the loyalty point store code? Conceptually, aurum store gear sounds like a different kind of faction gear and aurum are like loyalty points. why have a whole new set of code to do essentially the same job? i've already said this, but no harm in quoting for effect Originally by: Vastek Non The LP store doesn't allow RMT for short term profit. It also requires in game effort to obtain those LP, thus its not what CCP had in mind. Derp much? Buy AUR then use it in an 'LP-Style' store - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN!
Dogo Duma	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:36:00 - [312] Originally by: Raid'En Edited by: Raid''En on 14/06/2011 11:23:46 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Let's wait a few months and see if the right thing to do is to keep waiting or roll it out. The easiest way I can ask you guys is to ask the CSM. I will do that first and see what they say. wait... did they listen to the opinion ?! o_O well given we'll have clothes to test your system i don't really see the need for ONE ship not ready... better finish it first. however guys just wondering ; what about adding some ships models from the old create a starship as a "repaint" of current ships ? just than it will not be only the color like what you're preparing, but the whole model They show this CSM shoes and stuff, making them think they are giving them insight. But this CSM does simply not ask any questions of relevance whatsoever in full realisation that CCP has ample precedent - no matter how brosef CCP and CSM are - of flat out bull =P Remember the topic of how awesome PI was? Or the silly excuse of "no we cant do backlog, so so difficult takes so much time" (until a player downloaded a copy of Hansoft and had it working in a few hours). There's good people on this CSM, some of which really are trying their best. But it is hard to see big pictures when you are being taken along in the trenches, that too is a factor. On top of that, this CSM has castrated itself both for userbase and methods. Pressure management out of the window, we're no longer a stakeholder, and zero insight into the democratic element of the experiment (weekly meeting minutes? no, we do skype now between "us", which helps definately yes, but also has downsides) - we're now just a feedback group. On top of that a chairman with pants down over statements of not giving a **** about RMT affairs. It's an elected CSM, but not a representative one. And powerless by choice.
VIP Ares Minmatar BALKAN EXPRESS HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:36:00 - [313] Big NO NO NO to this.
yani dumyat Minmatar Pixie Cats	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:36:00 - [314] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The easiest way I can ask you guys is to ask the CSM. I will do that first and see what they say. How? Are we to make a rage post on failheap? Sign up for SA just in case we get to talk to the mittani one day? You must be kidding. The current CSM are a null quango, no doubt well versed in the areas of the game they experience but not a great body to be relying on in other areas.... Originally by: CCP Zinfandel .... the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM.... The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) The very fact that they didn't ask about NPC sell orders creating a cap on the mineral basket shows they are not aware of the issues involved. The CSM have their uses but don't think for a moment that they are a reliable representation of the playerbase.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:37:00 - [315] Originally by: Vastek Non The LP store doesn't allow RMT for short term profit. It also requires in game effort to obtain those LP, thus its not what CCP had in mind. He's talking about the code, not the store itself. The code for the LP store lets it accept two currencies (LP and ISK), a myriad of different item combinations (tags, ammo, ships, modules), and allows for the output of an even larger ù or at least more complex ù myriad of items (BPCs, ammo, ships, modules). He's asking why that code couldn't be reused to do all the things the AUR store can't, and "simply" replace the LP costs with AUR costs. If I were to guess, it's because the AUR store is properly Carbonified and fancy, with nice preview windows and advert banners, whereas the LP store isà wellà not. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:37:00 - [316] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 14/06/2011 11:39:27 Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 14/06/2011 11:19:41 Originally by: DeBingJos You are turning EVE into a pay2win type of game. What? That's already beeing the case since PLEX. Still have to see any proposal or idea that's more "pay to win" than RL Cash --> PLEX --> ISK --> 80 million SP character and hangars full of T2 ships. Whatever has been proposed thus far is peanuts compared to this option that strangly no-one seems to mind at all. You're really a weird and inconsistent bunch! Yes, every one realizes Plex is a form to MT for ISK. However, it does provide a benefit....free game time meaning it is inclusive to the whole of the Eve community rather than exclusive. Example: you buy plex. That plex is more or less a net loss unless you find someone to purchase it from you. Example2: You buy plex, you convert it to aurum, you purchase a magic ship without ever having to interact with the rest of Eve. Yes it's a very fine line here. Ideally, there should be no outside purchase of anything to bring advantage inside the game. CCP pushed the community's limits for MT with plex. But at least there is a benefit for the rest of the community. Now CCP is once again pushing those limits. In it's current incarnation the MT stores only benefit one group of people, those able to and willing to afford it with RL cash without benefiting anyone but themselves. It's obvious to me what CCP wants. They want direct RL cash for game items. The fact that they're stumbling over the community's outrage at every step in this process tells me they want a RL cash driven game. One need not even ask if CCP has considered the ramifications. Obviously, being developers they're reasonably intelligent and most likely have developed a modicum of skills to logically deduce outcomes. The only conclusion that I can deduce is that their goals where MT is concerned is to have exactly what most of us don't want: "More cash" wins / "Less cash" loses
Silas Cooper	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:38:00 - [317] Edited by: Silas Cooper on 14/06/2011 11:38:57 Not sure what's worse, releasing early because it's not ready or sneaking in an item mall under the banner of "we'll change it later on". The one that took decision of either option doesn't really understand what impact it has, I'll explain it to you; you lose the trust of your loyal player base, that's what! -- You can't cure stupid.
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:39:00 - [318] Edited by: Ciar Meara on 14/06/2011 11:44:23 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel OK, here's a little more information that I had not provided. [..]And if it's a problem, we won't even start then. Let's wait a few months and see if the right thing to do is to keep waiting or roll it out. [...] What is this? Here is an unfinished product, now put money it! NO WAIT? Don't, just lets see where it goes ok? Or lets not! Lets keep waiting! This makes CCP sound like an overexcited teenager during his first time! Seriously, FINISH a product with a clear goal, evaluate it then. Don't throw half-assed, semi functional stuff on our live server that changes basic economic and gameplay attributes and NOT expect a ***storm. Let me state I have nothing against MT as far as it doesn't violate certain principles and nothing against new skins (especially Amarr ones). But from what everybody has said (including DEVS) CCP realises what was proposed might be a problem! But then decided to go ahead anyway because 3 months is a "long time"* even though the products won't be available for months...Why doesn't the marketing/accounting division have a coke, relax and shut the **** up and mostly stops pushing content that is clearly not FINISHED. We have been waiting some some decent changes for Years! (Faction warfare, overview!, lag, capbalancing, etc) SOONtm Much? I think the "awesome scorpion skin" can take a backseat for a few months! ------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
notabene Minmatar Superior Eve Engineering	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:44:00 - [319] Originally by: Ciar Meara Edited by: Ciar Meara on 14/06/2011 11:41:19 ... We have been waiting some some decent changes for Years! (Faction warfare, overview!, lag, capbalancing, etc) SOOMtm Much? I think the "awesome scorpion skin" can take a backseat for a few months! Yes, but those changes will not generate new revenue for CCP
Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:45:00 - [320] Well this has certainly gotten people very excited. Me, I'm just waiting for the tinfoil hat forum threads to pop up, where they think the Ishukone Scorpion has a hidden increased jamming %.
My Postman	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:47:00 - [321] I saw it coming after this "plex for remap" bull*hit. Personally i¦m ok with buying a new skin for your ship with $, but the way it is done, spoiles a good part of eves player driven economy. Trust me, this is just the beginning. Lookes like Jennifer has not to wait for an awful lot of time till getting my stuff.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:50:00 - [322] Originally by: Takseen Well this has certainly gotten people very excited. Me, I'm just waiting for the tinfoil hat forum threads to pop up, where they think the Ishukone Scorpion has a hidden increased jamming %. I say wait nine to twelve months and we'll begin to see improved upon ships in the MT shop.
yani dumyat Minmatar Pixie Cats	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:53:00 - [323] Something I'm curious about is why scorpions? They have no obvious use in pve and tend to be primary in pvp even without a fancy paint job, there really is no point to buying a scorp with AUR other than station spinning. Now a navy scorp on the other hand.....I think you see where this is going.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:53:00 - [324] personally i wish that CCP would finish all the things they have started and not finished, polish the game and remove all the bugs befire finding new ways to squeeze even more money out of a paying subscriber base. Most MMO's out there either use a subscription model, or the free to play microtransaction model. Are you seriously considering adopting BOTH!? terrible - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN!
notabene Minmatar Superior Eve Engineering	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:55:00 - [325] Originally by: Skippermonkey personally i wish that CCP would finish all the things they have started and not finished, polish the game and remove all the bugs befire finding new ways to squeeze even more money out of a paying subscriber base. Most MMO's out there either use a subscription model, or the free to play microtransaction model. Are you seriously considering adopting BOTH!? terrible gimme MOAR $$$
Adrian Idaho	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:55:00 - [326] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel And if it's a problem, we won't even start then. More than 300 angry replies from your customers within 14 hours should give you a pretty good idea about whether it's a problem or not.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:56:00 - [327] Originally by: yani dumyat Something I'm curious about is why scorpions? They have no obvious use in pve and tend to be primary in pvp even without a fancy paint job, there really is no point to buying a scorp with AUR other than station spinning. Now a navy scorp on the other hand.....I think you see where this is going. They chose a Scorpion because so far, its the only hull they they have been bothered to update after promising ages ago to update ALL the hulls. You do know that the next SPESHUL PAINTJOB ship to be offered will be the new maller ship model they are parading in the new loading screen whatever happened to COMMITMENT TO EXCELLENCE? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN!
Don Pellegrino Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2011.06.14 11:57:00 - [328] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. <SNIP> Yes, we know it won't damage the economy. But this is setting a very dangerous precedent and we don't want that. Just DO NOT roll it out until it can at least do trade-ins so that one can trade a standard Scorpion for that Ishukone one. Half-baked features need to stop. ____________________________________________
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:02:00 - [329]
Rex Liberium	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:03:00 - [330] I am completly okay with this. But who uses a reskinned scorpion anyway.... I would like to be able to buy faction fitted dreadnoughts please, with a nice skin. The skin would be the same as it is now, but with graffiti on the side saying 'U mad?' or 'RMT FTW!', because 'At least I didn't bot!' is most likely to long. /Sarcasm Anyway, this is a bad idea. You can sell vanity items all you want, but dont sell stuff that effects core gameplay, like whole ships, without having to turn in any. And with respect to the shop: My boss always says deliver a good product or deliver nothing at all.
salty Milk	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:04:00 - [331] try not to forget the CSM is perfectly on board with it i do know how you like to pretend that the CSM has YOUR best interests at heart
Dodgy Past Amarr Zor Industries Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:06:00 - [332] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. I propose as players we show our distaste for your flippancy for the market by maintaining a campaign of suiciding aurum only ships until you deliver the finished code rather than generating isk out of thin air. ( the insurance isk has been created and sold to players by CCP ). Hopefully this will dissuade people from buying these ships and encourage CCP fix their broken promises.
Zaotome	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:06:00 - [333] Originally by: Don Pellegrino Just DO NOT roll it out until it can at least do trade-ins so that one can trade a standard Scorpion for that Ishukone one. this.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:07:00 - [334] Originally by: Dodgy Past I propose as players we show our distaste for your flippancy for the market by maintaining a campaign of suiciding aurum only ships until you deliver the finished code rather than generating isk out of thin air. ( the insurance isk has been created and sold to players by CCP ). Hopefully this will dissuade people from buying these ships and encourage CCP fix their broken promises. You didnt already think that everyone of a certain mindset has already decided to gank paintjob scorpions on release? Its going to be a fun day - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN!
Zavulon Sukkot Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:08:00 - [335] CCP WateverYourNameIsThisWeek, I think it's pretty clear that these things naturally won't be popular, especially since you're pulling two classically incompatible revenue models together. That leads me to ask, with MT being introduced into the game, and PLEX already being bought enough by bots and 'temporary' accounts to allow 'older' players to play without putting more money in, when is EVE juts going to move to free-to-play and we'll have to buy 'CCP points' to do everything from region jumps to capital undocks to starting building jobs? After all, your communication is crap concerning the evidence systemic problems bought to your table every day. When are you going to commit to fixing the problems, or finishing milking the game for what you can? The 'noble exchange', to me at least, is pretty clear evidence of what CCP cares about. NATI.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:12:00 - [336] Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 14/06/2011 11:19:41 Originally by: DeBingJos You are turning EVE into a pay2win type of game. What? That's already beeing the case since PLEX. Still have to see any proposal or idea that's more "pay to win" than RL Cash --> PLEX --> ISK --> 80 million SP character and hangars full of T2 ships. Whatever has been proposed thus far is peanuts compared to this option that strangly no-one seems to mind at all. You're really a weird and inconsistent bunch! Exactly. Plex may not "inject" new isk into the game but it is put in the game in advance. Yes some one will have to grind for it sooner or later but you still devide eve into two groups.Thos who buy and sell plex..and those who grind for it to pay their game time. The rich and the poor. Not only that but all the isk in the game (in advance) is not much different as isk being injected. This effect will grow with the demand being higher to buy all the up comming new stuff..using plex. It is just like cheating to me and while this scorpion thing might hurt the people making them..plex hurts every profession by giving you another way to get hold of isk..injected,in advance or how ever you look at it. To me it remains a legal way to cheat the game. Plex goes against everything eve stands for..hard work and tears when something is lost.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:14:00 - [337] Why not just have "paintjob" (or "decal") slots and just sell the paintjobs/decals in the store ? Makes far more sense to me. Also, it side-steps the ugly issue of possibly making minerals available from NPC sales in some form. And also side-steps the need to have the "Noble Exchange" accept any item trade-ins. Last but not least, whatever the chosen volume for the "paintjob/decal" item will be, it will most likely be far, far smaller than the full ship - and with them being easier to move, it makes them more attractive to purchase. Hell, I can see people buying the full damn set of paintjobs for whatever ship they have, just for the heck of it, since they can probably easily move ALL of them in the cargo of the ship itself to the new base of operations. Now imagine how that would be like if you had to move 20 ships instead of 1 ship with 19-20 paintjob items in its cargo. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Pol Macsliebh Minmatar Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:15:00 - [338] Originally by: Don Pellegrino Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:14:27 There's nothing that I like about this feature. However, I'll suffer it so long as these ships are 100% identical in performance to the Tech 1 Scorpion. If those Aurum ships are ANY better than their Tech 1 counterparts, the whole game can go ** itself for putting money above the sandbox. EDIT: Wait just a damn minute, there is NO EXCUSE not to make it consume a regular Tech 1 Scorpion in exchange for these ships!** I'm just going to quote this once again. No BPC exchange method, fine, but there's no reason not to consume a normal Scorpion in the process!
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:17:00 - [339] Originally by: HeIIfire11 Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: DeBingJos You are turning EVE into a pay2win type of game. What? That's already beeing the case since PLEX. Still have to see any proposal or idea that's more "pay to win" than RL Cash --> PLEX --> ISK --> 80 million SP character and hangars full of T2 ships. Whatever has been proposed thus far is peanuts compared to this option that strangly no-one seems to mind at all. You're really a weird and inconsistent bunch! Exactly. Plex may not "inject" new isk into the game but it is put in the game in advance. What does it matter if you can buy your success with RL money from other players, CCP, the gouvernement, your mother, God or whatever? Fact is you still buy it with RL money ("pay2win") so you already agree upon it that it should be possible. And a ship is very minor compared to a 60 mil SP character that can actually fly it.
Keras Authion Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:17:00 - [340] I'll have to add my discontempt about magic scorpions popping out of shattered pilot licenses. I have no trouble accepting a re-painted ship for RL monies, but when the ship itself gets spawned out of nowhere I do have a problem. Please think it over again.
Pierced Brosmen Priory Of The Lemon	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:20:00 - [341] Edited by: Pierced Brosmen on 14/06/2011 12:21:39 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 14/06/2011 11:42:40 Originally by: Vastek Non The LP store doesn't allow RMT for short term profit. It also requires in game effort to obtain those LP, thus its not what CCP had in mind. He's talking about the code, not the store itself. The code for the LP store lets it accept a reasonably complex combination of two currencies (LP and ISK) and a myriad of different items (tags, ammo, ships, modules) as input, and allows for an even larger ù or at least more complex ù myriad of items (BPCs, ammo, ships, modules, books, implants) as output. He's asking why that code couldn't be reused to do all the things the AUR store can't, and "simply" replace the LP costs with AUR costs. If I were to guess (uncharitably), it's because the AUR store is properly Carbonified and fancy, with nice preview windows and advert banners, whereas the LP store isà wellà not. Also I'd like to point out that the LP-store sucks. You have to manualy set up filtering on it unless you want to scroll through everything (wich mostly contain a lot of implants where you'd need a reference guide to figure out wich does what). Yes, I think the reason for them not using the code for the LP-store is to make the new store in carbon (and to make it better). It's current functionality and complexity of payment/trade-ins and the fact there is no filtering in it at it's current iteration, I'm sure that will be fixed. I'd like to be able to browse the market window based on market groups and clothing to be separated in groups of mens cloting, womens cloting and unisex, and further into clothing groups. And, when the Aurum store is in a more finished form (unless it's functionality still sucks), I'd like to see them use that code to create a new LP-store
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:22:00 - [342] Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 14/06/2011 12:24:48 Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: HeIIfire11 Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: DeBingJos You are turning EVE into a pay2win type of game. What? That's already beeing the case since PLEX. Still have to see any proposal or idea that's more "pay to win" than RL Cash --> PLEX --> ISK --> 80 million SP character and hangars full of T2 ships. Whatever has been proposed thus far is peanuts compared to this option that strangly no-one seems to mind at all. You're really a weird and inconsistent bunch! Exactly. Plex may not "inject" new isk into the game but it is put in the game in advance. What does it matter if you can buy your success with RL money from other players, CCP, the gouvernement, your mother, God or whatever? Fact is you still buy it with RL money ("pay2win") so you already agree upon it that it should be possible. And a ship is very minor compared to a 60 mil SP character that can actually fly it. I think you misunderstood me..I agree with you 100% and hate the intro of plex. Why grind missions or mine anymore? Let those who can't afford to buy/sell plex for isk do so. Or why skill for 5 years when you can work a few hours irl and buy a char? I'm on your side all the way. Edit: And I did complain about plex..as I'm complaining now because once it's in...it's in the game.
moneykeeper	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:23:00 - [343] It's easy to identify CCP employee alts are in this thread. No real Eve players would argue in favor of MT. It is like buying a drink, then being charged an extra 50 cents for an ice cube. What sort of a tool would want that? With MT comes a shift in the development of Eve. Eve's involving content and player based economy will be sidelined. Colored pants and sparkly ships is the new developmental direction. But, like it or not, this garbage is going to be forced into Eve. Someone high up in the company has decreed it. There is no combination of words that can be used to change this.
Turix Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:23:00 - [344] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel If we need to go even slower, we can and will. How about you stop, I don't want to count have many times the COMMUNITY and not just the CSM has told you/asked you/pleaded/begged you to NOT touch micro-transactions; yet here we are. Very sad day indeed. __________________________
Deyionu The Maverick Navy	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:24:00 - [345] Edited by: Deyionu on 14/06/2011 12:24:06 So here is an idea.. if you are so sure the first people to buy these are collectors gimp the hell out of the ship (lower stats, maybe 1 less missile bay). Then when you get the ship trade-in done and in-game force everyone to do a trade-in. So basically release a civilian model then later release the active duty one. There is no point of introducing a bought ship to the game that doesn't cost any in-game items. Also make is so the civilian one can't be reprocessed.
Dodgy Past Amarr Zor Industries Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:28:00 - [346] Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: Dodgy Past I propose as players we show our distaste for your flippancy for the market by maintaining a campaign of suiciding aurum only ships until you deliver the finished code rather than generating isk out of thin air. ( the insurance isk has been created and sold to players by CCP ). Hopefully this will dissuade people from buying these ships and encourage CCP fix their broken promises. You didnt already think that everyone of a certain mindset has already decided to gank paintjob scorpions on release? Its going to be a fun day There was always going to be the for the tears crowd, but now a lot of people will be joining them until CCP stop selling isk for RL money.
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:28:00 - [347] Originally by: HeIIfire11 I think you misunderstood me..I agree with you 100% and hate the intro of plex. Why grind missions or mine anymore? Let those who can't afford to buy/sell plex for isk do so. Or why skill for 5 years when you can work a few hours irl and buy a char? I'm on your side all the way. Edit: And I did complain about plex..as I'm complaining now because once it's in...it's in the game. Darn I should learn to read a bit better (it was late yesterday and I'm at work atm .. but still ;) .. sorry for that!
Phoenus Caldari Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:30:00 - [348] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. 'It won't affect the economy because people are buying them for fun'. Seriously? I mean, how goddamn dumb can you be? You want to go down the whole microtransactions route, sure - keep it in Incarna. Oh wait, you won't - why? Because such a small minority of the playerbase actually cares about Incarna that you wouldn't make any money out of it.
Enuen Ravenseye Malevolence. Imperial 0rder	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:30:00 - [349] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) Wait, wait, wait! I assume you're joking about the name "Noble Exchange" for the cash shop. Tell me you're just being sarcastic. If not, well ... that right there would be one of the funniest ****ing things I've heard in a while. "We're greedy! We only care about money! In someone's twisted world that makes us "noble"! Bwahahahaha P.S. As you ruin the builder's career path, are you considering giving a free SP re-spec for industrialists? Seems fair.
Swren1 Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:30:00 - [350] Eve was fun for 5 years, time to find something else I guess...
Khaed Duhn Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:32:00 - [351] I'd just like to say that pushing through anything like this 'magic ships for money' idea, will leave the kind of salty after taste in my mouth that I last experienced when my Uncle Jimmy came round my house and showed me a 'superspecialsecret' magic trick that he didn't want Papa to know about. Personally I don't think this is part of an evil plan for CCP to steal my babies or other similar over reaction, I simply know that this type of (even temporary) inclusion in the game will make me a very sad panda.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:34:00 - [352] Originally by: Enuen Ravenseye Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) Wait, wait, wait! I assume you're joking about the name "Noble Exchange" for the cash shop. Tell me you're just being sarcastic. Rather Orwellian of them isn't it? Not a surprise considering it was likely named by the Ministry of Truth, excuse me, I mean the Marketing Department. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:36:00 - [353] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel If we need to go even slower, we can and will. why the rush then? is it really because you are still hardpressed on what some paperpushers or some admin that understands nothing about this game still thinks that new content sells more than extra polish? if that's so, I can't wait to see the CCP's grave marker where it will say "what do you mean, half-baked content isn't better than improve what we have?" no really we don't mine new content. we do like new content. but I can see the first incarnation of the AUR shop becoming just like pretty much everything else in EVE: half-developed, half-deployed, half-assed. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Cognito Ergosum Amarr Vulkan Schiffbau und Maschinenfabrik AG	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:37:00 - [354] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 09:05:15 Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 09:03:36 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: MotherMoon Next year people should vote in people me and Tippa. I'm going to have to go on record here to say that you are completely insane. Tippa for CSM! come onnn, you me, Akita T, cat o ninetails! Tank CEO, jenny spitfire most epic CSM ever! If this is the way the EVE world is going to end I think I'd like this group to be the band on the Titanic.
Anne Arqui Minmatar Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:38:00 - [355] Originally by: Enuen Ravenseye P.S. As you ruin the builder's career path, are you considering giving a free SP re-spec for industrialists? Seems fair. Yes, getting my Hulk skills reimbursed! I soooo hate mining! And a bloodline change as we're at it ...............
Di Mulle	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:38:00 - [356] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The detail is interesting for many. Indeed. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel So I presented our dilemma to them. The very fact that you consider this as dilemma is a clearest indication where your priorities now lie. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. I.e., it can't do nothing, but don't worry, almighty SoonTM will take care. We, on the other hand, do not care much - but are extremely eager to squeeze some cash. Actions speak better than words. You act pretty clearly now, and thats why this: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. is empty words. They are not backed by action, opposite, they contradict with action. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. From MT point view, quite nice idea, don't you think. Making them exclusive, so the moment you release the next paid version, everybody rush to open their wallets as wide as never seen before. Or so you can hope. Again, bean counters would like your way of thinking.
Murev Vorchilde Caldari End Game.	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:40:00 - [357] Edited by: Murev Vorchilde on 14/06/2011 12:42:16 Originally by: Enuen Ravenseye Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) Wait, wait, wait! I assume you're joking about the name "Noble Exchange" for the cash shop. Tell me you're just being sarcastic. If not, well ... that right there would be one of the funniest ****ing things I've heard in a while. "We're greedy! We only care about money! In someone's twisted world that makes us "noble"! Bwahahahaha P.S. As you ruin the builder's career path, are you considering giving a free SP re-spec for industrialists? Seems fair. its noble as in noble metal(gold store) - How Id Fix
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:42:00 - [358] Originally by: Khaed Duhn I'd just like to say that pushing through anything like this 'magic ships for money' idea, will leave the kind of salty after taste in my mouth that I last experienced when my Uncle Jimmy came round my house and showed me a 'superspecialsecret' magic trick that he didn't want Papa to know about. ROFL Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: HeIIfire11 I think you misunderstood me..I agree with you 100% and hate the intro of plex. Why grind missions or mine anymore? Let those who can't afford to buy/sell plex for isk do so. Or why skill for 5 years when you can work a few hours irl and buy a char? I'm on your side all the way. Edit: And I did complain about plex..as I'm complaining now because once it's in...it's in the game. Darn I should learn to read a bit better (it was late yesterday and I'm at work atm .. but still ;) .. sorry for that! No worries I figured you misunderstood me.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:44:00 - [359] CCP have categorically stated time and time again that microtransactions will only be used for cosmetic items. CCP - do you want to prove everyone who calls you liars right? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Vannbros Shipyards	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:47:00 - [360] I thought GTC was a good idea. Wasn't sure about the plex idea though, but still it's done. Now we have MT through the front door. I rarely play eve, the subscription ends at the end of the month and as I'm not playing anyway, just training the skills to keep the character 'current'. Not that it matters as 80M+ sp doesn't mean anything if you don't undock for a few weeks on end. Eve Online was a great game. The back story the promise of adventure and of course the people. The people are still around for now, but the adventure is more grind like, the pve is outrageously dull and ship spinning is tiresome. It's been a graphical chat room for a very long time now and this introduction is just another sad route down the already highly signposted path of f2p, or at least pay to win. View The Eve Industrial Organiser Site
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:49:00 - [361] Star Wars Galaxies?
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:50:00 - [362] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. Go slower. The CSM was wrong. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:52:00 - [363] Originally by: Rodj Blake CCP have categorically stated time and time again that microtransactions will only be used for cosmetic items. CCP - do you want to prove everyone who calls you liars right? A differently coloured Scorpion with exactly the same stats is pretty ****ing cosmetic. Yes the way they do it presently it could theoretically be used as a way to inject more common ores into the market, but realistically? Who the hell would buy an Ishukone Scorp just to reprocess it? Its not like there's a major shortage of trit with all that macroing going on.

CCP Zinfandel	Posted - 2011.06.14 12:56:00 - [364] I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship.

Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:01:00 - [365] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. there is the option of making the ship giving 1 trit if refined, not insurable and not leaving a wreck behind. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:03:00 - [366] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 14/06/2011 13:04:49 Originally by: Grimpak there is the option of making the ship giving 1 trit if refined, not insurable and not leaving a wreck behind. nonononono, its good. Ship for AUR straight swap is now off the table which is good. Getting either a BPC purchase option, or a trade going is the best way forward. Also, now theres a fairly reasonable CCP response, its kind of hard to rage about it anymore personal preference would be for the AUR shop to sell BPC's ONLY, not pre-made ships - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN!
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:06:00 - [367] Originally by: Skippermonkey Edited by: Skippermonkey on 14/06/2011 13:04:49 Originally by: Grimpak there is the option of making the ship giving 1 trit if refined, not insurable and not leaving a wreck behind. nonononono, its good. Ship for AUR straight swap is now off the table which is good. Getting either a BPC purchase option, or a trade going is the best way forward. Also, now theres a fairly reasonable CCP response, its kind of hard to rage about it anymore personal preference would be for the AUR shop to sell BPC's ONLY, not pre-made ships Even selling BPCs for Aurum would go against CCP's promise of only having MTs for vanity items. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:06:00 - [368] Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: Grimpak there is the option of making the ship giving 1 trit if refined, not insurable and not leaving a wreck behind. nonononono, its good. Ship for AUR straight swap is now off the table which is good. Getting either a BPC purchase option, or a trade going is the best way forward. Also, now theres a fairly reasonable CCP response, its kind of hard to rage about it anymore just throwing feasible options. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:06:00 - [369] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. there is the option of making the ship giving 1 trit if refined, not insurable and not leaving a wreck behind. I think it would be too much to ask for a million work arounds so that we can save eve and have the ship asap. I'm surprised we got an answer and action was taken to delay the ship being introduced..causing bad things to happen to our eve. I'm still worried all in all..but thankful to ccp for listening and acting.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:07:00 - [370] Originally by: Phoenus 'It won't affect the economy because people are buying them for fun'. Seriously? I mean, how goddamn dumb can you be? I seem to remember reading a similar claim, somewhat paraphrased as "Titans won't affect 0.0 because people won't afford themà" ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:08:00 - [371] Originally by: Takseen Originally by: Rodj Blake CCP have categorically stated time and time again that microtransactions will only be used for cosmetic items. CCP - do you want to prove everyone who calls you liars right? A differently coloured Scorpion with exactly the same stats is pretty ***ing cosmetic. Yes the way they do it presently it could theoretically be used as a way to inject more common ores into the market, but realistically? Who the hell would buy an Ishukone Scorp just to reprocess it? Its not like there's a major shortage of trit with all that macroing going on. Question: what's the functional difference between selling a re-skinned Scorpion for cash and selling a normal Scorpion for cash? Answer: nothing. Question: would you be happy with CCP selling re-skinned titans for cash? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.*
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:10:00 - [372] Originally by: HeIIfire11 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. there is the option of making the ship giving 1 trit if refined, not insurable and not leaving a wreck behind. I think it would be too much to ask for a million work arounds so that we can save eve and have the ship asap. I'm surprised we got an answer and action was taken to delay the ship being introduced..causing bad things to happen to our eve. I'm still worried all in all..but thankful to ccp for listening and acting. as I said, it's a "feasible" option. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:10:00 - [373] The Real Space Initiative - V7
Cathy Drall Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:11:00 - [374] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. Thanks Zinfandel. It's ok, just a Scorpion hull .. when's the Ashimmu with Khanid paintjob coming (would easily be the prettiest ship in game)???? "Im not nearly as paranoid as people think I am"
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:13:00 - [375] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel stuff Thank you for looking into it and making the wise choice. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:15:00 - [376] Edited by: Ciar Meara on 14/06/2011 13:16:33 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. Like you would do if you would follow some kind of deployment schedule with benchmarks and a finished project. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. This is indeed "not remembering correctly" they DIDN'T want this but they could "live" with one week test...that's as big as a diplomatic PLEASE NO as you can get! Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The easiest way I can ask you guys is to ask the CSM. I will do that first and see what they say. *It seems you allready did sir! It seems they didn't like it sir! It seems nobody likes it SIR!* Originally by: CCP Zinfandel So they [CSM] recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. A total and utter lie, from what you just said. There is a big difference between no and reccomend. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August [..] This is what you were allready going to do! So you are saying you WILL NOT change ANYTHING. (see below here for previous comment on 2011.06.14 11:10:00) Originally by: CCP Zinfandel We aren't offering everything in the store on day one. We are rolling stuff in slowly. I had scheduled the Ishukone Watch Scorpion for late August ------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:15:00 - [377] Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 14/06/2011 13:16:37 CCP please start creating Ships out of thin air so i can start my own company and create game like this ( but better ) and put you out of bussiness.
EightGuns Giovanni	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:16:00 - [378] I guess when this crap does get introduced what is CCP going to do for the people that paid for scorp paint job or any other ship and loses it in battle? While some might buy this stuff after losing some you think it would become a dead end product. I think the "store" should sell the paintjob not the ship, and it becomes an account unlock so if you buy the red scorp or w/e then any scorp purchased off the market can be painted in the hangar. Just an opinon here.
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:17:00 - [379] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. This is absolutely a feature that does not need to be rushed. Holding is a good choice... Not doing at all would be better however. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Mitchello	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:18:00 - [380] Originally by: Skippermonkey Edited by: Skippermonkey on 14/06/2011 13:04:49 Originally by: Grimpak there is the option of making the ship giving 1 trit if refined, not insurable and not leaving a wreck behind. nonononono, its good. Ship for AUR straight swap is now off the table which is good. Getting either a BPC purchase option, or a trade going is the best way forward. Also, now theres a fairly reasonable CCP response, its kind of hard to rage about it anymore personal preference would be for the AUR shop to sell BPC's ONLY, not pre-made ships It's off the table for now, for this first implementation. Don't get your hopes up =P They were clear enough, step by step, slower if need be. INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
Terh Rumnatarn Caldari Research School of Astronomy and Astrophysics	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:19:00 - [381] Thumbs up for the delay. "Linking MT to Plex" problem remains. And also the fact that you (CPP) constantly losing players confidence in this brand.
Trebor Daehdoow	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:19:00 - [382] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. Thanks for the clarification, Zinfandel.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:21:00 - [383] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 14/06/2011 13:21:09 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. Thanks for the clarification, Zinfandel. Page 13, enter the CSM ~~Candidate~~ Delegate (oops) your voters have been raging time to placate them in a statesman-like manner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN!
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:21:00 - [384] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. Thanks for the clarification, Zinfandel. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel So they [CSM] recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Yeah he didn't remember "some parts correctly" ------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
Buzzmong Aliastra	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:23:00 - [385] Originally by: Tippia I seem to remember reading a similar claim, somewhat paraphrased as "Titans won't affect 0.0 because people won't afford themà" Also see: "Being able to fire the most powerful weapon in the game, which has an AOE effect, from a remote location off grid might be OP and go against Risk Vs Reward? Nah, it'll be fiiiinnnnneee." Or the other: "So, we've introduced this new captial but we're boosting it as it's not a popular class. It's now going to be bridge the gap between a carrier and titan. You want to know it's role? Er, well, it's going to bridge the gap. Don't worry, it'll also be expensive and you won't see it often." As for the topic. I pay a subscription to EvE and as such I don't want to see MT at all. If I have to suffer them, then they've got to not affect the game in any way at all (ie, just vanity). Adding a ship with a new paintjob that's created out of thin air and is essentially just injecting minerals into the game goes against this principle, not to mention the market issues. I have to admit that if CCP continues down this front over the next 6 to 12 months, I can see myself leaving EvE and never coming back. It's got a massive whiff of Galaxies NGE about it when the devs and management couldn't see or forgot what made the game great and popular in the first place. --------------------------------- Go Web! Go!
Evelgrivion Gunpoint Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:24:00 - [386] Originally by: Ciar Meara Edited by: Ciar Meara on 14/06/2011 13:17:47 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. Like you would do if you would follow some kind of deployment schedule with benchmarks and a finished project. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. This is indeed "not remembering correctly" they DIDN'T want this but they could "live" with one week test...that's as big as a diplomatic PLEASE NO as you can get! Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The easiest way I can ask you guys is to ask the CSM. I will do that first and see what they say. *It seems you allready did sir! It seems they didn't like it sir! It seems nobody likes it SIR!* Originally by: CCP Zinfandel So they [CSM] recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. A total and utter lie, from what you just said. There is a big difference between no and reccomend. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August [..] This is what you were allready going to do! So you are saying you WILL NOT change ANYTHING. (see below here for previous comment on 2011.06.14 11:10:00) Originally by: CCP Zinfandel We aren't offering everything in the store on day one. We are rolling stuff in slowly. I had scheduled the Ishukone Watch Scorpion for late August Five Star post, Ciar Meara. You captured my shared sentiments perfectly.
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:24:00 - [387] Originally by: Skippermonkey Edited by: Skippermonkey on 14/06/2011 13:21:09 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. Thanks for the clarification, Zinfandel. Page 13, enter the CSM ~~Candidate~~ Delegate (oops) your voters have been raging time to placate them in a statesman-like manner Actually, much as this issue is important. some CSM weight would better be used at this particular moment on the 'making CQ optional on docking, and retaining the old hanger view' issue. Given Incarna launches in 6 days. Also why can't we have our unlimited fittings back. So yes some CSM support for the MT issue is essential, but on a time sensitivity basis, it needs to go on Incarna first. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Serpents smile	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:27:00 - [388] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. Thank you. For now. What may help preventing another forum rage in a few weeks about this is before August hits the calendar this year, to put up a dev blog and explain to us concerned citizens of EVE, why you need this particular item to be tested in your shop before the shop is actually finished and fully functional. What is with the rush? We can wait a bit more on paint jobs. And there's always SiSi for testing.
Davich MacGregor Minmatar Stellar Products and Quality Resources	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:32:00 - [389] This game used to be ok. Now they're going to make it some kind of a bastardized micro transaction/pay to play freak show. So proud about they're player economy that they're going to shove it up our arses to their elbows. Thanks CCP. Way to destroy this thing. Good job.
EightGuns Giovanni	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:34:00 - [390] Edited by: EightGuns Giovanni on 14/06/2011 13:34:35 Kinda a sad really that you can compare EvE and SWG together now
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:38:00 - [391] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Skippermonkey personal preference would be for the AUR shop to sell BPC's ONLY, not pre-made ships Even selling BPCs for Aurum would go against CCP's promise of only having MTs for vanity items. The best choice is probably "Aur + BPC = Vanity BPC". This way the BPC maker still gets his chance, the miner still gets his chance, and so forth. The Vanity ships them selves will still land on the market. The crappy part for the Aurum user is he has to use contracts to move the BPC. Since they want Aur items to move on the market and make them worth the effort, so they can sell more Aurum stuff, is why we likely see the system the way it is, with the "thing" easily dropped on the market being the end product of the Ignoble Exchange. CCP should have done what Akita mentioned and had a paint job slot, or come up with a BPX, that can never have more than one run and can be stacked. Then they wouldn't have to forget how copy labs worked, but then of course they'd have to figure out how manufacturing jobs work and read that BPC copy number they're so confused about. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Kate Rygel	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:46:00 - [392] Edited by: Kate Rygel on 14/06/2011 13:46:42 Originally by: Evelgrivion ... Electronic Arts already has a member in CCP's board of directors. ... If that is true, that answers alot of questions about the stupid **** CCP has been doing in recent years. --- I don't doubt that it is true, I'm just too lazy/uninterested to go verify it.
Mesacc Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:52:00 - [393] Another SWG vet here to add my 2 cents. Watch out CCP. your on a slipery slope! I came here after the NGE hit and I see this game sliping down the dark path! Your already wheeling and dealing with Sony with Dust. Whats next? No-trade trading card game? Turrents and launchers replaced with specials? Ships given away as mission rewards? No more penalty to dieing? Will our ships re-spawn in the station when we get killed? How about insta-travel vehicles? Magicly transport your ship to any station in the EVE verse at any time? ohoh, cant forget fery wings and angel halos!! Maybee Im being paranoid, but I remember seeing threads just like this one pre-NGE. I just dont wanna see another game I love go down the tubes!
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:55:00 - [394] Not going to read 14 pages but here's what I remember: Scorpions with fancy paint jobs are firmly in the "ok sure it doesn't impact gameplay aside from being some shiny thing that somebody might want to buy to customize their gameplay experience" category. You need to provide that hull first though so you're not sidestepping the producer market. I don't have an issue with MT that are purely cosmetic and as long as it does that then who cares. It has to do that though.
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:57:00 - [395] Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages but here's what I remember: Scorpions with fancy paint jobs are firmly in the "ok sure it doesn't impact gameplay aside from being some shiny thing that somebody might want to buy to customize their gameplay experience" category. You need to provide that hull first though so you're not sidestepping the producer market. I don't have an issue with MT that are purely cosmetic and as long as it does that then who cares. It has to do that though. Great... could you guys weigh in on the deployment of CQ please. At least go so far as to try to get CCP to actually answer the questions we are asking rather than answer the questions they want us to be asking. Incarna is coming out a hell of a lot sooner than the issues raised in this thread. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Silas Cooper	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:59:00 - [396] Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages but here's what I remember: Scorpions with fancy paint jobs are firmly in the "ok sure it doesn't impact gameplay aside from being some shiny thing that somebody might want to buy to customize their gameplay experience" category. You need to provide that hull first though so you're not sidestepping the producer market. I don't have an issue with MT that are purely cosmetic and as long as it does that then who cares. It has to do that though. If you, as CSM, agreed to and/or bought the direct AUR<>ship exchange thing as it's presented now without protest, then you as you a group are the most fail CSM ever. -- You can't cure stupid.
Adrian Idaho	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:59:00 - [397] Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages but here's what I remember: Scorpions with fancy paint jobs are firmly in the "ok sure it doesn't impact gameplay aside from being some shiny thing that somebody might want to buy to customize their gameplay experience" category. You need to provide that hull first though so you're not sidestepping the producer market. I don't have an issue with MT that are purely cosmetic and as long as it does that then who cares. It has to do that though. The problem was that providing the hull first wasn't going to be necessary for 3-4 months, thereby sidestepping the producer market.
WhyAmIPoor	Posted - 2011.06.14 13:59:00 - [398] I might make a corp dedicated to suicide ganking anything MT related
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:00:00 - [399] This whole idea is just pure garbage, CCP. I give it two months before you can buy a sparkle pony without having to trade in squat.
moneykeeper	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:00:00 - [400] Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages but here's what I remember: Scorpions with fancy paint jobs are firmly in the "ok sure it doesn't impact gameplay aside from being some shiny thing that somebody might want to buy to customize their gameplay experience" category. You need to provide that hull first though so you're not sidestepping the producer market. I don't have an issue with MT that are purely cosmetic and as long as it does that then who cares. It has to do that though. Yup, you get flown out to iceland, put up in a nice hotel and given a bunch of freebies. Then the nice man at CCP asks you to just agree to these little changes that won't affect you with your billions of isk. How could you refuse? CSM deligates are wothless. They are interested in themselves and nothing else.
Darod Zyree Gallente Zyree Holding	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:01:00 - [401] Edited by: Darod Zyree on 14/06/2011 14:01:56 Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages but here's what I remember: Scorpions with fancy paint jobs are firmly in the "ok sure it doesn't impact gameplay aside from being some shiny thing that somebody might want to buy to customize their gameplay experience" category. You need to provide that hull first though so you're not sidestepping the producer market. I don't have an issue with MT that are purely cosmetic and as long as it does that then who cares. It has to do that though. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. Vile rat can you tell us which CSM member was for a one week test of messing up our sandbox? CSM members are posting that they are against any form in ship for Aurum, yet CCP Zinfandel just wrote that you guys were ok with this. Someone is not telling the whole truth? -Darod-
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:01:00 - [402] Originally by: Adrian Idaho Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages but here's what I remember: Scorpions with fancy paint jobs are firmly in the "ok sure it doesn't impact gameplay aside from being some shiny thing that somebody might want to buy to customize their gameplay experience" category. You need to provide that hull first though so you're not sidestepping the producer market. I don't have an issue with MT that are purely cosmetic and as long as it does that then who cares. It has to do that though. The problem was that providing the hull first wasn't going to be necessary for 3-4 months, thereby sidestepping the producer market. I do not agree with anything that sidesteps the producer market. You need to have to have a produced scorpion first for this to be something I'd support. In general though I don't have any issue with MT that are purely for cosmetics.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:03:00 - [403] Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages snip Then let someone who will read 14 pages take over the job you can't be bothered to do. My 2 isk.
Adrian Idaho	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:03:00 - [404] Originally by: Vile rat You need to provide that hull first though so you're not sidestepping the producer market. [...] It has to do that though. Originally by: Silas Cooper If you, as CSM, agreed to and/or bought the direct AUR<>ship exchange thing as it's presented now without protest, then you as you a group are the most fail CSM ever. You need to work on your reading comprehension skills. Fake edit: god damn two minutes timer, I'm not going too fast! kicks two-minute-timer in the nuts Also, stop resetting to two minutes after I failed to send a post grrrr
Adrian Idaho	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:06:00 - [405] Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: Adrian Idaho Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages but here's what I remember: Scorpions with fancy paint jobs are firmly in the "ok sure it doesn't impact gameplay aside from being some shiny thing that somebody might want to buy to customize their gameplay experience" category. You need to provide that hull first though so you're not sidestepping the producer market. I don't have an issue with MT that are purely cosmetic and as long as it does that then who cares. It has to do that though. The problem was that providing the hull first wasn't going to be necessary for 3-4 months, thereby sidestepping the producer market. I do not agree with anything that sidesteps the producer market. You need to have to have a produced scorpion first for this to be something I'd support. In general though I don't have any issue with MT that are purely for cosmetics. Yes, I understood your position, I just wanted to summarize the 14 pages to the single, defining problem (I didn't bother reading the first 6 pages neither ).
Silas Cooper	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:07:00 - [406] Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: Adrian Idaho Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages but here's what I remember: Scorpions with fancy paint jobs are firmly in the "ok sure it doesn't impact gameplay aside from being some shiny thing that somebody might want to buy to customize their gameplay experience" category. You need to provide that hull first though so you're not sidestepping the producer market. I don't have an issue with MT that are purely cosmetic and as long as it does that then who cares. It has to do that though. The problem was that providing the hull first wasn't going to be necessary for 3-4 months, thereby sidestepping the producer market. I do not agree with anything that sidesteps the producer market. You need to have to have a produced scorpion first for this to be something I'd support. In general though I don't have any issue with MT that are purely for cosmetics. Have you been paying attention at all? Right now the plan is to be able to buy said Scorp for AUR, without having to trade in anything else, let alone another Scorp. They'll "change" that soonÖ, since when do people who have played for more than 6 months really expect CCP to deliver on soonÖ? And why didn't the CSM protest and ask for the new ship to implement as soonÖ happens, afterall, it's just 3-4 months right? Apart from that, is the AUR amount going to chance the moment people have to also hand in a normal scorp or is that kinda not thought of, as the plan always ways for a direct AUR<>item exchange? -- You can't cure stupid.
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:15:00 - [407] Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages but here's what I remember: Then you shouldn't be CSM, this thread even mentions the CSM as prime movers in this debate. How did you get elected, on a platform of 'I like to feel important but don't like making an effort'. GTFO ------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
EightGuns Giovanni	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:16:00 - [408] What happens to the bought item if it's destroyed???? I haven't played any MT type games, but aren't most of those bought items permanent? So if I lose my scorp in a fight I should have another waiting for me in my hangar correct??? I did pay money for the item and should not have to buy another. And if I dont get another why bother to buy one in the first place because we all know in EvE loss is real and can be painful.
mvrck22	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:17:00 - [409] Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages but here's what I remember: Scorpions with fancy paint jobs are firmly in the "ok sure it doesn't impact gameplay aside from being some shiny thing that somebody might want to buy to customize their gameplay experience" category. You need to provide that hull first though so you're not sidestepping the producer market. I don't have an issue with MT that are purely cosmetic and as long as it does that then who cares. It has to do that though. You're a CSM delegate. Make some effort, seriously. At minimum get together with other delegates who have made the effort and map out trends in the thread and notable posts thusfar.
salty Milk	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:18:00 - [410] Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read anything the CSM output but here's what I remember: Free holidays to Iceland to help everybody swallow CCP's ****ty pills. Oh and getting heads up information on which they can profit massively with their buddies and alts.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Norse'Storm Battle Group Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:20:00 - [411] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. Then it isn't ready to be released, and should be delayed until such time as it is. That is, if the trust and respect of your long term subscribers means a damn to you. If not, then by all means, carry on. Maybe you'll have more luck fooling the WoD subscribers into thinking you give a damn. --Vel Originally by: Blacksquirrel This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.

CCP Zinfandel	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:20:00 - [412] Originally by: Silas Cooper Have you been paying attention at all? Right now the plan is to be able to buy said Scorp for AUR, without having to trade in anything else, let alone another Scorp. They'll "change" that soonÖ, since when do people who have played for more than 6 months really expect CCP to deliver on soonÖ? And why didn't the CSM protest and ask for the new ship to implement as soonÖ happens, afterall, it's just 3-4 months right? Apart from that, is the AUR amount going to chance the moment people have to also hand in a normal scorp or is that kinda not thought of, as the plan always ways for a direct AUR<>item exchange? No, I think you might have missed a post. The plan is to put the ship into the EVE client for Incarna 1.0 but not put any in the game yet. In August, we will evaluate how things are going, how long until the store can support either BCPs or trade-ins, and then work with the CSM to pick a launch schedule for the ship. We are holding it back to go slower.

Misha M'Liena Amarr 21st Eridani Lighthorse Eves Misguided Children	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:21:00 - [413] Lady Silas Cooper. You can give it a rest. Vile rat is a csm. He is bought and paid for. He is simply saying words to make people forget the true horror of this proposal. He isn't for this particular ship idea. BUT HE LIKES EVERYTHING ELSE MT STANDS FOR!!!! Misha Ps. I wonder Vile Rat, how much free goodies did it take you to, Throw the players of eve Under the bus I mean seriously.... a free signed pic of Zinfadel? What? three beers? I want to know your price.
Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:22:00 - [414] Originally by: EightGuns Giovanni What happens to the bought item if it's destroyed???? I haven't played any MT type games, but aren't most of those bought items permanent? So if I lose my scorp in a fight I should have another waiting for me in my hangar correct??? I did pay money for the item and should not have to buy another. And if I dont get another why bother to buy one in the first place because we all know in EvE loss is real and can be painful. Most items in general in other MMOs are permanent, whether they're acquired via in-game activities or microtransactions. If you buy an Ishukone Scorpion and it asplodes, you lose your cash investment. If you buy Plex for cash, convert it to ISK and buy a regular Scorpion which then asplodes, you've also lost your investment. The only difference here with the proposed implementation(that's being changed anyway) is that it would have injected free minerals into the economy and bypassed the ship production process, simple though it may be.
Aineko Macx	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:23:00 - [415] Originally by: Clair Bear This establishes a firm CCP-sponsored cap/floor on mineral prices and ISK to GTC conversion. Think either insuring and SDing navy ships for ISK directly, or reprocessing them for minerals. One is an ISK faucet, the other a mineral faucet. Both have CCP, as opposed to players, firmly dictating exactly how much ISK or minerals are worth, in real world $. I am surprised noone mentioned it before. Even assuming you accept MT for spawning valuables out of thin air, this **s with the markets big time. It's like in the old days with artificial caps/floors on mineral prices. Originally by:** HeIIfire11 How is this any different from buying isk online? Some bot had to create that isk too. If it was a hacked account that hacked person also had to earn that isk. Because even the valuables sold by RMTers weren't spawned out of thin air. Quote: I told you all that plex was the start and here is that slippery slope everyone was talking about. PLEX was quite reasonable and a good way to curb RMTing. Also, it doesn't spawn ISK/items out of thin air. You can sell it for those, but then someone else made the effort to get them. What CCP is doing now IS spawning stuff, completely bypassing any player effort, game mechanic, markets, supply and demand... The idiocy is unbelievable even for CCP ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation.
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:24:00 - [416] Edited by: Ciar Meara on 14/06/2011 14:25:11 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel We are holding it back to go slower. No you are not, you are holding to your original schedule as you allready stated earlier that was "late august"! please enlighten me how not changing your release framework at all for this is "holding back"? ------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
Zavulon Sukkot Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:25:00 - [417] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel No, I think you might have missed a post. The plan is to put the ship into the EVE client for Incarna 1.0 but not put any in the game yet. In August, we will evaluate how things are going, how long until the store can support either BCPs or trade-ins, and then work with the CSM to pick a launch schedule for the ship. We are holding it back to go slower. So, why did CCP implement it as a direct trade in the first place? Are you just trying to make us tired of griping about MT so you can kill the game with fatigue? I'd think it would be crystal clear that implementations like this fly in the face of player sentiment, so why does CCP keep trying to push them like that? NATI.
Khaed Duhn Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:26:00 - [418] I am fully aware that I am a total non-entity on the forums but I would just like to say thanks for listening to peoples concerns, it doesn't mean I'm happy with how this will all play out in the long run but for the moment thank you. And at least it looks like I can repress that memory of Uncle Jimmy again, ahhh it was like gargling an ocean of salty yoghurt.
Vile'er Ungrateful Vile	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:26:00 - [419] CCP Zinfandel you clearly stated in the tournmaent subforum that the new scorpion would come purely from aur when it is released if this is incorrect simply ask for a news note or dev blog to quieten the masses. vile rat you are saying that u wouldnt want them to skip production when you havent read the post we are all having kittens over. you cant miss it the tournment sub forum is not as crazy spam as the general one.
Iurnan Mileghere Singularity Foundation	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:32:00 - [420] Please count this as another voice against the current plan. Wait until the store is ready rather than start a bad precedent. IG goods (those that have mechanical usage) come from IG mechanics, not RL currency.
Jandice Ymladris Caldari dark influence	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:36:00 - [421] Edited by: Jandice Ymladris on 14/06/2011 14:37:27 I'm sad that CCP is pushing through with this. I could find some credit for CCP if the special ship would require Basic ship + Aur, as that would still support the builders & and therefor the sandbox. So essentially becoming a variant of the LP store, with the difference you spend Aur instead of LP + isk. The LP+Isk is then the aur from a plex you can buy on the market. But selling it without needing to trade in the basic version of the ship (and module in the future?) is just bad form, and hurts indeed the image people have of Eve (sandbox where your actions have an effect) I don't plan to quit outright, but hang around and see how things evolve. If the MT system indeed becomes mandatory, then I'm afraid my days on Eve are counted. I love the implementation of Walking in Stations, but less thrilled about the MT system, I actually dispice such system for any montly subscription game, as they are amongst the most expensive games you can have (Eve costs 180 euro's a year, might not be much for a hobby, but it sure is for a game, especially considering there's no reallife enhancement attached, unlike sports). -------------- Cleaning up wrecks others leave behind! Got to keep space clean!
Silas Cooper	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:37:00 - [422] Edited by: Silas Cooper on 14/06/2011 14:42:12 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Originally by: Silas Cooper Have you been paying attention at all? Right now the plan is to be able to buy said Scorp for AUR, without having to trade in anything else, let alone another Scorp. They'll "change" that soonÖ, since when do people who have played for more than 6 months really expect CCP to deliver on soonÖ? And why didn't the CSM protest and ask for the new ship to implement as soonÖ happens, afterall, it's just 3-4 months right? Apart from that, is the AUR amount going to chance the moment people have to also hand in a normal scorp or is that kinda not thought of, as the plan always ways for a direct AUR<>item exchange? No, I think you might have missed a post. The plan is to put the ship into the EVE client for Incarna 1.0 but not put any in the game yet. In August, we will evaluate how things are going, how long until the store can support either BCPs or trade-ins, and then work with the CSM to pick a launch schedule for the ship. We are holding it back to go slower. Your post on page 9 tells a quite different story than the one on page 13, more than just "not remembering it some parts correctly". Not buying that, especially not from a marketing guy I'm completely opposed to MT but I do understand that it's something that's going to happen. IF it has to happen make SURE you don't make the mistake (again) or trying to have a direct comparison between AUR and minerals or even worse, ingame advantages. Because if you do we don't want your crap! And FFS; read Akita's proposal, it's a thousand times better than what you are planning now. We'll gladly wait longer to see that version implemented. I do understand however it would severely hamper any future "buy your advantages from the item mall!" idea one might have. -- You can't cure stupid.
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:37:00 - [423] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. To be brutally honest: it shouldn't take 13 pages of a general discussion thread to do this and while I'm glad it won't be introduced immediately, I think it's utter madness to still even consider it. As for the CSM who could live with a one week test: You were doing so well, now you lost most of my trust again. I know most of you aren't that into that side of eve, but I'd hope you would at least ask around or just not talk about those parts you lack experience in. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Good. Let's wait till it's done, before we again get to play with something that was released before its time. Really CCP, some of us been playing since the start, we can wait. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. [..] So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. What is this, plausible deniability? They said it was ok so we went for it? CCP has people that know a lot about the economy and market theory in eve, were they even consulted? Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. This is basically exactly what we do not want. You will control the market, not the players. You will decide when to intervene, this has nothing to do with supply & demand let alone the mineral & production markets, R&D and time in general. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel If we need to go even slower, we can and will. Yes please, good luck in building a functional MT market for vanity items that do not even have the chance to impact the greater eve economy and player driven sandbox concept. We can wait to see it in all it's glory Ignore me Drone Guide EON 21 & 22
Tira Mitzu Sphere Industries	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:44:00 - [424] @CCP Zinfandel As you might notice this is turning into a threadnaught real soon. I dont know what the CSM really thinks of the idea, however it appears that the customer base, The one said CSM should represent, doesn't really get the fuzzy feeling. I'm okay with getting a bright pink jacket, or a full Caldari Commander outfit for Aurum. I'd actually be happy about it. However I do get the feeling $-ISK-AURUM (left it as gray as possible to reflect what'll happen) didn't get the attention it could have used. for the love of god dont go releasing shiney gear from a store that aint worked out properly. Do you know Knight Online? most people dont, it became swarmed with bots. The die-hards or the core community quit when some random person #123 could get levels/gear for $ I believe many of us witnessed games become ** because of ingame stores they could spend cash on. However with the store you're releasing it will be possible to go to ebay, get ISK buy aurum, buy fancy ship. I think that at some stage you should have bounced the ball to the players. Not just the CSM, please dont get me wrong, I like the idea of a csm. If there's a slight chance it might ** up the market, dont do it; if you do release such a thing, make it a permanent one, you're just gonna create hypes for people to collect,august a scorpion, november a roden mega, december a thukker tempest? I can assume you need $ and isk sinks, but there's better ways to get isk sinks. to get more $, well there's plenty of ideas in the suggestion forums that would really improve eve and make it an attractive game to more people.. sorry had to vent
Linda Shadowborn Gallente Dark Steel Industries	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:54:00 - [425] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 09:05:15 Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 09:03:36 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: MotherMoon Next year people should vote in people me and Tippa. I'm going to have to go on record here to say that you are completely insane. Tippa for CSM! come onnn, you me, Akita T, cat o ninetails! Tank CEO, jenny spitfire most epic CSM ever! You got my vote :)
Peter VonThal Raygun Technologies	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:55:00 - [426] CCP, I don't like micro-transactions. But when you announced it was coming for Incarna, I told myself "Ok, I could live with that for vanity stuff, but it would be disappointing to scrap all the possibilities we imagined with true player-run shops." Then we were presented with the idea of PLEX for Remaps, which scared the crap out of me, 'slippery slope' and all that. +1 for holding off on that. We've been getting hints at MT for ship skins, logos, etc and I'm actually pretty much OK with this when I hear talk about it. Then you tell us that it would 'temporarily' spawn a ship out of nothing. I tell myself I will 'temporarily' let my accounts expire. When you do PLEX/aurum for ship skins, you must require in-game mineral or ship inputs or it is no longer just 'vanity.' Please continue to clarify your thoughts and goals with this and consider not only what this does to EVE in-game, but also what will happen with its reputation based on what you're hearing in threads like this.
Seleene	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:56:00 - [427] Originally by: Tira Mitzu @CCP Zinfandel As you might notice this is turning into a threadnaught real soon. I dont know what the CSM really thinks of the idea, however it appears that the customer base, The one said CSM should represent, doesn't really get the fuzzy feeling. AFAIK CSM 6 has been 100% opposed to anything other than vanity type of items for any kind of MT. Personally, I do not care about offering PAINT JOBS or whatever for AUR. That's pure cosmetic nonsense. The breakdown for me is offering an entire ship for AUR. It's a simple BPO / BPC thing in my mind. You buy nanobots that expire after one paint job application or you pay more for nanobots that will apply that paint job to every ship type you own (if you so choose). 'Skirts and Skins' (Incarna / EVE) is my own personal name for it. Whether you are dressing up your space dollie or putting a giant chrome fin on your Megathron, so long as it is purely cosmetic and does not offer any in game advantage, that's fine by me. I wish there was a way to keep MT completely out of EVE (and all video games). I understand why it exists though ($$$$$$$$$) so logically all you can do is try to minimize its impact. That realization doesn't change the fact that I'd be a much happier player if all I had to do was go to a custom chrome shop in a station, pay 100,000 ISK and have a pink Thorax. However, being upset at CSM 6 or saying we have somehow failed to prevent MT from coming to EVE in some form means you were are very mis-informed. There was absolutely no way that this was not going to happen in some form. There is just too much money in it for CCP. The best we can attempt to do is curb the way it's introduced / used in EVE, which is what we are actually trying to do. I would much rather see a proper implementation of the AUR store, with proper QA and more community and CSM feedback. I cannot see EVE players being upset at any part of this being delayed a few months so that ship skins can be done the right way. ---- My Blog - Where I say stuff.
Aloe Cloveris The Greater Goon	Posted - 2011.06.14 14:59:00 - [428] Hi! I don't care if people want a ****** sparkle~~pony~~scorpion. That's cool if that's your thing I guess, w/e. But there was mention of it being difficult to work out the BPC thing coding-wise or something (something about not being able to dictate how many runs are on the print). How is it any different than what is in place for LP redeemed for either BPCs (which require the hull to build from) or LP + hull for the navy issue variant? Those are 1-run copies. So, like, yeah. Wut up wit dat?
Misha M'Liena Amarr 21st Eridani Lighthorse Eves Misguided Children	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:05:00 - [429] Seleene ty for confirming you too are bought and paid for. THIS IDEA IS WRONG! If you allow Money For anything, Then you are allowing them to do it for ships!!! It is not hard for a company to say oops we made a mistake......Heres ships for $ and theres nada you can do about. I mean c'mon really. Your answer was well thought out Seleene. YOUR LOGIC IS FLAWED Misha. Mad as hell and still not bribed.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:07:00 - [430] Originally by: Aloe Cloveris Hi! I don't care if people want a ****** sparkle~~pony~~scorpion. That's cool if that's your thing I guess, w/e. But there was mention of it being difficult to work out the BPC thing coding-wise or something (something about not being able to dictate how many runs are on the print). How is it any different than what is in place for LP redeemed for either BPCs (which require the hull to build from) or LP + hull for the navy issue variant? Those are 1-run copies. So, like, yeah. Wut up wit dat? Different code branch. They're building something 'new'. From the ground up. When they have time for it. So in phases. But the CQ store is largely new code, as far as I can figure that out with the info that's been given.
Vice Admiral Spreadsheet	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:08:00 - [431] Uh huh. What's the worst that could happen? Truly. Who is going to pay extra for a PVP ship with a different skin, which is often primaried in fleet fights? How many of these ships will be bought in 3-4 months? Will there suddenly be an explosion of these vanity Scorpions sold which would cause irreparable market damage before CCP can take it off the store? No. There is no problem.
Meissa Anunthiel	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:11:00 - [432] Originally by: Skippermonkey Edited by: Skippermonkey on 14/06/2011 13:21:09 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. Thanks for the clarification, Zinfandel. Page 13, enter the CSM ~~Candidate~~ Delegate (oops) your voters have been raging time to placate them in a statesman-like manner I can't speak for the others, but joining the throng and raging is not a viable approach. It's way more productive for us to read your rage, listen to you all, talk to you (hey, contact us!), and then talk with CCP about solutions. We're (one of) the intermediary step between your rage and finding solutions. ----- Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6
Captain Megadeath	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:14:00 - [433] Jesus H. Christ...... A threadnaught all because some bozos don't understand; A, buy or build scorpion b, trade into Noble exchange with Arum C, recieve scorpion back with cool paint job D, profit To answer some question with the way I see things. 1, Can you recycle it for minerals? Yes, its a scorpion, you get the same minerals back just as you would as if you recycled a "normal" scorpion. 2, Will it leave a wreck Yes, its a scorpion, it will leave the same wreck as a "normal" scorpion would. People are getting into a twist over something silly, especially over this scorpion. It's just a shiney, it performs just like a "normal" scorpion. You a paying for a paintjob. nothing else......
Ehdward	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:16:00 - [434] Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet Uh huh. What's the worst that could happen? Truly. Who is going to pay extra for a PVP ship with a different skin, which is often primaried in fleet fights? How many of these ships will be bought in 3-4 months? Will there suddenly be an explosion of these vanity Scorpions sold which would cause irreparable market damage before CCP can take it off the store? No. There is no problem. Complaining is always greatest right before the patch. Once they enable trade-ins and release more custom skins, I'm sure the same people complaining now will complain about how the price of thoraxes will go up because their pink skin will make them so popular.
noise Minmatar m3 Corp	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:16:00 - [435] I don't want an Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship. I want a Scorpion Battleship that is a different colour. I don't want it listed on the overview as something different that makes me stand out and become primary. I want a standard Scorpion battleship with a different paint that people will only notice is different by looking at my ship in space. :( Am I missing something? ---------------------------- -It's a big rock. Can't wait to tell my friends. They don't have a rock this big. The Phoenix Diaries
Anddeh McNab Cadre Assault Force	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:18:00 - [436] Interesting thread, plenty of understandable rage. Few ragequits too, which are always hilarious. It's good to see CCP listening to the playerbase and the CSM (even if we did have to rage hard at poor Zinfandel ). Ships definately need to have a trade-in, LP Store style, and hopefully it won't be too long before I can trade-in my Firetail for one with a nicer paintjob because frankly the Matari faction green cammo is terrible . --- There are two sides to the EVE community; those that scream for change and those that scream against it. Often they are the same person.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:19:00 - [437] Edited by: Tippia on 14/06/2011 15:19:28 Originally by: Captain Megadeath A threadnaught all because some bozos don't understand; The bozo being you, I take it? Quote: ~~A, buy or build scorpion~~ b, trade ~~into Noble exchange with~~ Arum C, recieve scorpion ~~back~~ with cool paint job D, profit What you're not understanding is that, at first, only less than half of your process would be true ù you'd just trade $$$ for a complete ship, no intermediaries and no other input needed. Quote: Yes, its a scorpion, you get the same minerals back just as you would as if you recycled a "normal" scorpion. àwhich means it can (could?) be used to produce minerals out of nowhere, completely bypassing the miners, the researchers, the builders and the traders that should be involved in the process. Quote: Yes, its a scorpion, it will leave the same wreck as a "normal" scorpion would. àwhich is (was?) another problem ù it meant you bypassed the normal mineral-to-salvage conversion. If you want to call people bozos, read up on what the actual problem is before emitting noises that make you sound silly. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Captain Megadeath	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:22:00 - [438] Nice trolling Tippa, but if you actually believe all that then yes, the bozo remark is also aimed at you.......
Indimiel	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:22:00 - [439] Excellent looks like we win. Hopefully CCP Zinfandel will notice being called on all the lies about the CSM begging for them to introduce Ships for $, and this will never again be considered. He was nice enough to respond here and backpedal on the announcement within 24hrs, of which I am truly appreciative. Also thanks to all the CSM crew who chimed in with their categorical opposition to this.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:23:00 - [440] Originally by: Captain Megadeath Nice trolling Tippa, Yes. But not by me, seeing as how it was CCP that said it. Quote: but if you actually believe all that then yes, the bozo remark is also aimed at you So you're saying that CCP are lying to us? That's not very nice. So what are your sources? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:24:00 - [441] Originally by: noise I don't want an Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship. I want a Scorpion Battleship that is a different colour. I don't want it listed on the overview as something different that makes me stand out and become primary. I want a standard Scorpion battleship with a different paint that people will only notice is different by looking at my ship in space. :( Am I missing something? Agreed, the idea of having a nice shiny paint job for your ship, only makes sense if it is the same ship, with different markings. Making it a separate (although identically performing ship) thus making it instant primary/suicide gank target, that you have to pay real money for.... Is asinine. It means instead of it being a widely available option for people to customise their ships, it turns into the occasional vanity ship that will hardly ever get undocked... What's the point? (and don't say make ccp money, cos I am asking what's the point for us, not them) We pay a subscription for this game, I expect that subscription to cover everything in this game (ie everything in it costs either isk and/or LP). If things like corporate offices, or customisable CQ's or corp/alliance ship decals, or wearing more than one outfit in Incarna, costs actual real money... I will stop playing eve. Because you are trying to sell immersion as an optional extra. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:27:00 - [442] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 14/06/2011 15:27:18 Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet ... temporarily ... Then they can temporarily not add it to the game instead of causing permanent mistrust and skepticism from the player base. I will have to agree with Adunh. It can not be that hard to add the code requiriring a unskinned scorp in the transaction. Come on CCP! Do not implement this in this fashion. EDIT: Bad typing Slade :Signature Temporarily Disabled:
Jandice Ymladris Caldari dark influence	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:27:00 - [443] Originally by: Captain Megadeath Jesus H. Christ...... A threadnaught all because some bozos don't understand; A, buy or build scorpion b, trade into Noble exchange with Arum C, recieve scorpion back with cool paint job D, profit To answer some question with the way I see things. 1, Can you recycle it for minerals? Yes, its a scorpion, you get the same minerals back just as you would as if you recycled a "normal" scorpion. 2, Will it leave a wreck Yes, its a scorpion, it will leave the same wreck as a "normal" scorpion would. People are getting into a twist over something silly, especially over this scorpion. It's just a shiney, it performs just like a "normal" scorpion. You a paying for a paintjob. nothing else...... The whole problem currently seems to be, that the Aurumscorpion doesn't need the basic scorpion to get. So in essence, you buy a ship with without investing materials in it, except isk/plex/aurum (any scorpion you see on the market, and variant of it, needs minerals at some point, thereby player interaction. This counts for almost every ship in eve, with exception of the celebration ships (the Jove shuttle, the solarsail ship etc, but these were effectivly useless, or worse then the regular) or the Tournament ships (who are indeed great, but oh so rare they are a collector's piece, and actually bringing one to battle showed you had some big cajunes! With Aurum it's different, you'll get as many as you can, without any minerals invested. They will be on par with existing ships, yet need no player input to be build, save for money. You'll notice if you read most posts, people would actually care less if it was Scorpion + Aurum=shiny Scorpion. But CCP wasn't clear on this, even stating that it would be 100% aurum= shiny scorpion initially. if it's Scorpion+Aurum=shiny scorpion, people will be far les up in arms about it, and would negate alot of the issues people have in this thread. -------------- Cleaning up wrecks others leave behind! Got to keep space clean!
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:28:00 - [444] Edited by: Grimpak on 14/06/2011 15:29:02 Originally by: Captain Megadeath Nice trolling Tippa, but if you actually believe all that then yes, the bozo remark is also aimed at you....... actually, you're the one that is either blind or doesn't want to see. the issue here is that CCP wanted to put a scorpion with a different skin in the AUR shop. so far so good, right? but what do you need to pay for such scorp? AUR. just AUR. that means that, unless told otherwise, that "regular scorp + skin" could be refined for minerals. that means that you would actually be buying minerals thru MT, bypassing, and in the process making obsolete, mineral extraction activity ingame, since you can now simply pay CCP to get refined minerals without any sort of effort. that is the issue here. not the fact that CCP will be selling a reskinned scorp that is in no way diferent from any regular scorp besides skin, but the fact that now you could, pretty much directly, buy minerals created from thin air and inject them in the market. that would break the market in soooo many ways I can't even figure how hard the game would crash because of that. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Krispy Dingo Minmatar The Night Crew	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:30:00 - [445] Edited by: Krispy Dingo on 14/06/2011 15:30:15 Dear threadnaughters, go read this right now. http://eve-search.com/thread/1527783/author/CCP It is nothing but CCP Zin's posts in this threadnaught. Do it before you don't read the entire thread and make an ass of yourself. Hugs and kisses, Krispy _____________________________ http://twitter.com/krispydingo http://krispydingo.com
Vice Admiral Spreadsheet	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:32:00 - [446] The market won't break. Reprocessing a skinned Scorp won't be as cost-efficient as reprocessing a normal Scorp, so no one will do it.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:33:00 - [447] Originally by: Krispy Dingo Dear threadnaughters, go read this right now. http://eve-search.com/thread/1527783/author/CCP It is nothing but CCP Zin's posts in this threadnaught. Do it before you don't read the entire thread and make an ass of yourself. For instance, disregarding (or not understanding the consequences of) these two critical points: It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. àthat's the first step towards assdom. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Arya Greywolf	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:33:00 - [448] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:14:27 There's nothing that I like about this feature. However, I'll suffer it so long as these ships are 100% identical in performance to the Tech 1 Scorpion. If those Aurum ships are ANY better than their Tech 1 counterparts, the whole game can go ** itself for putting money above the sandbox. EDIT: Wait just a damn minute, there is NO EXCUSE not to make it consume a regular Tech 1 Scorpion in exchange for these ships!** No BPC exchange method, fine, but there's no reason not to consume a normal Scorpion in the process! Agreed. This is utter bullsh*t CCP.
Jandice Ymladris Caldari dark influence	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:35:00 - [449] Edited by: Jandice Ymladris on 14/06/2011 15:35:32 I read it krispby, but CCp should find a way to do trade-ins with more then Aurum alone before implementing shiptrade with Aurum. As noticed above, alot of people's issues would be placed at rest when you could trade in a scorpion + aurum for the shiny scorpion. One also has to think further, the scorpion is currently the only ship avaible, but pretty sure every race will get a ship of their choice soon. Perhaps an Apocalypse? or a Tempest? That's what worries people right now. -------------- Cleaning up wrecks others leave behind! Got to keep space clean!
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:37:00 - [450] Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet The market won't break. Reprocessing a skinned Scorp won't be as cost-efficient as reprocessing a normal Scorp, so no one will do it. how do you know that? from what we know it's a "regular scorpion with a different skin". unless CCP comes and tells that this scorp yelds 1 trit and a bent pogo stick if you reprocess it, it will refine as much minerals as a normal scorp. cost effective? the fact that it actually spawns minerals from nothing is already cost effective enough. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Krispy Dingo Minmatar The Night Crew	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:37:00 - [451] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Krispy Dingo Dear threadnaughters, go read this right now. http://eve-search.com/thread/1527783/author/CCP It is nothing but CCP Zin's posts in this threadnaught. Do it before you don't read the entire thread and make an ass of yourself. For instance, disregarding (or not understanding the consequences of) these two critical points: It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. àthat's the first step towards assdom. It can't do them NOW. And Zin even says that the store is not totally ready for prime time. _____________________________ http://twitter.com/krispydingo http://krispydingo.com
Weaselior GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:39:00 - [452] Edited by: Weaselior on 14/06/2011 15:39:31 you goddamned morons gee lets magic ships out of thin air NOTHING COULD GO WRONG **** let's try to blame the CSM
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:39:00 - [453] Originally by: Krispy Dingo It can't do them NOW. Congratulations! You've understood the problem and why people are up in arms and want it pushed back. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:40:00 - [454] Edited by: Vile rat on 14/06/2011 15:40:40 Wow people really upset that I wouldn't read 14 full pages, heh! I stated my position and I'm comfortable with it. I'm clearly on the opposite side of the fence from this plan as the plan as stated doesn't require a built scorpion in order to complete the transaction. I don't think it'll have a huge impact on the market since this will be such a niche event (buying a reskinned scorpion) but it does introduce something other than a purely cosmetic result so I'm not on board on a long term scale. As a short term (week or two) promotion it shouldn't have a huge impact on the market so I wouldn't so much care. So basically, as an enduring item it really needs to require something already produced so you don't just insert dollar = receive Scorpion. If this is just a test run for a week or two, I don't like it for those reasons but I'm not going to get all worked up about it. If some of you think it'll destroy the scorpion market and feel it'll be horribly destablilizing let's hear what you got to say but my read is it'll be negligible.
Calon Seth	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:41:00 - [455] Originally by: Krispy Dingo Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Krispy Dingo Dear threadnaughters, go read this right now. http://eve-search.com/thread/1527783/author/CCP It is nothing but CCP Zin's posts in this threadnaught. Do it before you don't read the entire thread and make an ass of yourself. For instance, disregarding (or not understanding the consequences of) these two critical points: It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. àthat's the first step towards assdom. It can't do them NOW. And Zin even says that the store is not totally ready for prime time. Are you new here? CCP 101: 1. Make broken thing (aurum store that can't do ship trade ins) 2. Tell us, "No worries! We'll let you play with it while we fix it!" (Release version that takes no Scorpion at all) 3. Don't fix it, and forget it happened. See: Wormholes, Faction War, etc.
Anterios	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:43:00 - [456] I protest this whole Aurum idea. The Ishukone Watch Scorpion belongs in the Ishukone Loyalty Point store And the Incarta clothes should manufactured from PI materials with a Blueprint. Want to give people who want to spend real money something special?... fine use the existing method of: Person buys PLEX for real money > Person sells PLEX for ISK > Person buys Ishukone Watch Scorpion off the market from someone who spent there Ishukone LP's + Scorpion to get one. The above method is accessible to both people that earn there ISK and people who buy it with PLEX Your proposed method Alienates poorer people who either cant afford to and/or cant justify to buy a PLEX with real money and also those ingame that cant afford/justify investing a WHOLE PLEX just to buy a set of shoes. Yes I know that those item are going to be available on the open market as well, But that market will be ENTIRELY CONTROLLED by the aforementioned players that can afford to Waste a PLEX, Leaving no room for the little player to enter the market without a massive investment on their part. You say that its ok to sell vanity items for Real Money but I disagree with this also, Why should someone get better shoes than me just because he spends more Real Money than me? why a better looking ship than me? yes its only vanity but its better looking, Better looking is still Better, Further more these people will get to dictate the market price of all these items. I know that this already happens with PLEX but thats ok, I have no problem with people who bought PLEX with Real Money saying how much ISK they want to charge me for them to pay my next months subscription for me, If its to much i pay Real Money myself. What i do have a problem with is some Real Money Trader dictating how must I have to pay for my Spacelane Patrol Drake. TL;DR Aurum is crap just use LP Stores and regular manufacturing. I didn't mean for it to endup that long... honest
Laurent Savard	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:43:00 - [457] Originally by: Syphon Lodian You can buy ships with money already. People keep acting like PLEX is sacred, and that Aurum is the first step introducing physical money into EVE. It's not. I don't see this ever becoming an issue. PLEX is a larger issue. There are people that spend hundreds of dollars to maintain their fleets, and to recuperate from losses. Completely negating the point of having a competitive economy in EVE. Even so, it's not much of a problem. People will do what people will do. If not PLEX, they'd just buy from farmers. Since people still can't split hairs, PLEX gives you ISK and you buy ships that players made. You don't buy ships, you pay someone else's subscription. The isk comes from a player and the ships you buy comes from a player. Here you pay $$$ get a PLEX, change to Aurum, and get a Ship that transaction was now 100% outside of the sandbox.
salty Milk	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:45:00 - [458] Originally by: Vile rat Edited by: Vile rat on 14/06/2011 15:40:40 Wow people really upset that I wouldn't read 14 full pages, heh! i hope you feel the same way when im reading your daughters medical notes
Krispy Dingo Minmatar The Night Crew	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:45:00 - [459] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Krispy Dingo It can't do them NOW. Congratulations! You've understood the problem and why people are up in arms and want it pushed back. Read what Zin said, IT HAS BEEN PUSHED BACK! _____________________________ http://twitter.com/krispydingo http://krispydingo.com
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:45:00 - [460] Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages... Originally by: Vile rat ...let's hear what you got to say...
Arya Greywolf	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:46:00 - [461] Edited by: Arya Greywolf on 14/06/2011 15:47:08 Originally by: Vile rat Edited by: Vile rat on 14/06/2011 15:40:40 Wow people really upset that I wouldn't read 14 full pages, heh! I stated my position and I'm comfortable with it. I'm clearly on the opposite side of the fence from this plan as the plan as stated doesn't require a built scorpion in order to complete the transaction. I don't think it'll have a huge impact on the market since this will be such a niche event (buying a reskinned scorpion) but it does introduce something other than a purely cosmetic result so I'm not on board on a long term scale. As a short term (week or two) promotion it shouldn't have a huge impact on the market so I wouldn't so much care. So basically, as an enduring item it really needs to require something already produced so you don't just insert dollar = receive Scorpion. If this is just a test run for a week or two, I don't like it for those reasons but I'm not going to get all worked up about it. If some of you think it'll destroy the scorpion market and feel it'll be horribly destablilizing let's hear what you got to say but my read is it'll be negligible. It does add more than "a purely cosmetic result." It adds a scorpion (ship) with a paint job (cosmetic) for $$$. There was no work to get this besides MT. This is bullsh*t. You say it's a "test" run but that's exactly what CCP wants us to think. Another 6 months or less, they will be doing this hogwash for an increasing number of ships, other items, etc. It's a slippery slope. It should not be in EvE.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:46:00 - [462] Originally by: Krispy Dingo Read what Zin said, IT HAS BEEN PUSHED BACK! àfourteen pages later. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:47:00 - [463] Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages... Originally by: Vile rat ...let's hear what you got to say... Did my post clear it up enough?
noise Minmatar m3 Corp	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:50:00 - [464] Quick question. Will the ship show the same as the normal model of the ship for everything (such as show info, overview) except how it's seen with a different texture in space? ---------------------------- -It's a big rock. Can't wait to tell my friends. They don't have a rock this big. The Phoenix Diaries
salty Milk	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:51:00 - [465] Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages... Originally by: Vile rat ...let's hear what you got to say... Did my post clear it up enough? you are disgusting quit soon seriously you are an absolute disgrace of a representative you have no place on the csm or any other body the csm shouldnt be about juicy delicious tears on something awful forums or where ever you kool kid klan types hang out these days remove yourself you are absolutely terrible and deserve no favour, no respect and absolutely no benefit of any doubt did my post clear it up enough?
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:51:00 - [466] Originally by: Arya Greywolf It does add more than "a purely cosmetic result." It adds a scorpion (ship) with a paint job (cosmetic) for $$$. There was no work to get this besides MT. This is bullsht. Uh. I agree? That was the point of my post? Quote:* You say it's a "test" run but that's exactly what CCP wants us to think. Another 6 months or less, they will be doing this hogwash for an increasing number of ships, other items, etc. It's a slippery slope. It should not be in EvE. I have no issue with paint jobs that you MT for that go on a hull you own. This clearly is not that. Do I have an issue with a week period where this is for sale? I do have issues with it, but I don't think it'll have a huge impact. Depending on how it's priced it could be abused (insert scenes of market dudes melting down thousands of pseudo-scorps ruining the mineral market) but it's a non issue anyways since they are pushing this back.
Misha M'Liena Amarr 21st Eridani Lighthorse Eves Misguided Children	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:51:00 - [467] Edited by: Misha M''Liena on 14/06/2011 15:57:35 Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages... Originally by: Vile rat ...let's hear what you got to say... ^^ This. Anything else to add Vile? Misha. ps just missed being in before yours Vile. No your post didn't do anything. You won't read 14 pages but will then turn around and ask for our opinions......UMMMM it's in the 14 pages! I will say this 1 last time and then i'm done with this issue. Anytime you allow real money for anything in a game. I don't care if it's tatoo's decals paint ships couches whatever. It doesn't matter what joe gm/dev says.....It will be in to stay. Period. I'll get flamed and don't care.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:51:00 - [468] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. rolf I love it. 1st it's We are going to released this ship in 7 days for aurum then it's.... Oh well we were going to wait until august. and now it's it OH! did I forgot to mention the tiny detail that it was going to be a one week release? That's kinda a big thing to over look there huh? I find the lack of CSM posting in this thread disturbing....
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:53:00 - [469] Originally by: salty Milk Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages... Originally by: Vile rat ...let's hear what you got to say... Did my post clear it up enough? you are disgusting quit soon seriously you are an absolute disgrace of a representative you have no place on the csm or any other body the csm shouldnt be about juicy delicious tears on something awful forums or where ever you kool kid klan types hang out these days remove yourself you are absolutely terrible and deserve no favour, no respect and absolutely no benefit of any doubt did my post clear it up enough? Thanks for your input forum poster "salty milk".
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:56:00 - [470] I'm surprised that, in Eve, we're seeing this much rage over ships being bought with Aurum and so little anticipation and salivation at the thought of seeing all these ships all bought with Aurum. Think of the tears, people! Think of the tears! Someone spends money on a ship, someone else makes it go >pop< shortly after undocking.
Captain Megadeath	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:57:00 - [471] OMG, what's the world coming too when I understand and agree with a GOON......
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:57:00 - [472] Originally by: Vile rat Edited by: Vile rat on 14/06/2011 15:40:40 Wow people really upset that I wouldn't read 14 full pages, heh! I stated my position and I'm comfortable with it. I'm clearly on the opposite side of the fence from this plan as the plan as stated doesn't require a built scorpion in order to complete the transaction. I don't think it'll have a huge impact on the market since this will be such a niche event (buying a reskinned scorpion) but it does introduce something other than a purely cosmetic result so I'm not on board on a long term scale. As a short term (week or two) promotion it shouldn't have a huge impact on the market so I wouldn't so much care. So basically, as an enduring item it really needs to require something already produced so you don't just insert dollar = receive Scorpion. If this is just a test run for a week or two, I don't like it for those reasons but I'm not going to get all worked up about it. If some of you think it'll destroy the scorpion market and feel it'll be horribly destablilizing let's hear what you got to say but my read is it'll be negligible. The problem is that at the end of the test run CCP will say "well that works fine" and then roll it out permanently. And we'll be left with not only "insert Dollar = receive Scorpion" but also "insert ten Dollars = receive Avatar" Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:58:00 - [473] Machariel, Paladin, CNR, Golem, Tengu, Vargur, Nightmare. How about using these hulls for the test instead? I mean, it's only temporary. It won't really make an impact, right? It's not like anyone would melt them down.
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:58:00 - [474] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. I heard what you said but this is what the entire player base heard: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week to get our foot in the door (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then we open the flood gate for RMT. Pay to win MMO model is a GO! ... /Zingandel covers mic Do you think they bought it? We are gonna make so much money. Muahahaha... Wait a sec... I think this is still on.. click You are going down a path that everyone knows there will be no turning back. No matter how sugar coated present it and no matter how much you say test or anything like that, no one is buying it.
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 15:58:00 - [475] Originally by: Ingvar Angst I'm surprised that, in Eve, we're seeing this much rage over ships being bought with Aurum and so little anticipation and salivation at the thought of seeing all these ships all bought with Aurum. Think of the tears, people! Think of the tears! Someone spends money on a ship, someone else makes it go >pop< shortly after undocking. Oh god I want everybody to have custom skinned ships that I know they spent real money on. Everybody has a gillion isk these days but you know they'll be mad losing those things.
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:01:00 - [476] I got no problem with Scorp + Aurum = Golden scorp who is primary before even the other scorps. Aurum = Scorp is just so exploitable its not even funny. I mean, really CCP? You should know your players by now.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:01:00 - [477] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Think of the tears, people! Think of the tears! Someone spends money on a ship, someone else makes it go >pop< shortly after undocking. Oh, the tears will be sweet, but that doesn't change the fact that the idea of having a cash-for-minerals shop would have surprise-sexed the market in so many new and interesting ways that even the most hardened shei¯e-***-monger would feel queasy. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki*
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Sick Tight BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:03:00 - [478] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. rolf I love it. 1st it's We are going to released this ship in 7 days for aurum then it's.... Oh well we were going to wait until august. and now it's it OH! did I forgot to mention the tiny detail that it was going to be a one week release? That's kinda a big thing to over look there huh? I find the lack of quality CSM posting in this thread disturbing.... FYP, also truth. Here we go again down the slippery slope :( http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1528098&page=1 Also, looks like someone decided to post feedback on the CSM in the assembly hall that I actually agree with. Originally by: McKinlay When you get on the batphone and the only people left in the phone book are Aeternus and BLAST it might be time to hang up.
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:03:00 - [479] Originally by: Erichk Knaar I got no problem with Scorp + Aurum = Golden scorp who is primary before even the other scorps. Aurum = Scorp is just so exploitable its not even funny. I mean, really CCP? You should know your players by now. I agree with this and share your viewpoint.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:04:00 - [480] Originally by: Linda Shadowborn Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 09:05:15 Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 09:03:36 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: MotherMoon Next year people should vote in people me and Tippa. I'm going to have to go on record here to say that you are completely insane. Tippa for CSM! come onnn, you me, Akita T, cat o ninetails! Tank CEO, jenny spitfire most epic CSM ever! You got my vote :) you know, on one hand i was kinda kidding. But at least we read threads before we post on them, even if we have to read 14 pages 1st. I also love how neither the CSm or CCP directly answer some questions that have been asked. I wouldn't be able to promise my views would line up with everyone at all times. But I would at least promise to COMMUNICATE. also this thread is full of epic backpedaling.
Weaselior GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:04:00 - [481] Edited by: Weaselior on 14/06/2011 16:05:01 The fun way to abuse this is to magic minerals to deep 0.0 with zero effort. Hey, I may have paid a little extra, but I got minerals all the way to the ass-end of space for free, instantly! Thanks CCP!
Sloppy Podfarts	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:06:00 - [482] Originally by: salty Milk you are disgusting quit soon seriously you are an absolute disgrace of a representative you have no place on the csm or any other body the csm shouldnt be about juicy delicious tears on something awful forums or where ever you kool kid klan types hang out these days remove yourself you are absolutely terrible and deserve no favour, no respect and absolutely no benefit of any doubt did my post clear it up enough? SRS OWNAGE RITE THUR
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:08:00 - [483] Originally by: Vile rat Edited by: Vile rat on 14/06/2011 15:40:40 Wow people really upset that I wouldn't read 14 full pages, heh! I stated my position and I'm comfortable with it. I'm clearly on the opposite side of the fence from this plan as the plan as stated doesn't require a built scorpion in order to complete the transaction. I don't think it'll have a huge impact on the market since this will be such a niche event (buying a reskinned scorpion) but it does introduce something other than a purely cosmetic result so I'm not on board on a long term scale. As a short term (week or two) promotion it shouldn't have a huge impact on the market so I wouldn't so much care. So basically, as an enduring item it really needs to require something already produced so you don't just insert dollar = receive Scorpion. If this is just a test run for a week or two, I don't like it for those reasons but I'm not going to get all worked up about it. If some of you think it'll destroy the scorpion market and feel it'll be horribly destablilizing let's hear what you got to say but my read is it'll be negligible. OMG read thre thread. please I'll list the two biggest questions people want answered for you. 1.What you feel about CCP advertising the CSM as in support of just selling the the ship for aurum without trade in 2.Do you see the harm in the possibility of buying a ship just to reprocess it. It's cash for minerals more or less accessible from any station in any part fo the game. but seriously CCP is running around going "well the CSM like it so it must be a good idea!: defend yourselfs!
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:08:00 - [484] Serious question CCP, What went through your head when you asked yourself what the player reaction would be? Did this rage just hit you out of no where? Did you honestly think us, the community, new and old would just be totally peachy with this? A week of testing, for what? What testing results are you wanting to see? SiSi is that way
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:10:00 - [485] I don't have time to read through all the pages, Ill make this suggestion even though it may have been made earlier: CCP; Please manually buy a scorpion off the market for every one that people buy for Aurum. That will keep the balance. You can even say that NPC's are buying them for the conversion process, then re-selling them to us.
salty Milk	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:12:00 - [486] Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: salty Milk you are disgusting quit soon seriously you are an absolute disgrace of a representative you have no place on the csm or any other body the csm shouldnt be about juicy delicious tears on something awful forums or where ever you kool kid klan types hang out these days remove yourself you are absolutely terrible and deserve no favour, no respect and absolutely no benefit of any doubt did my post clear it up enough? Thanks for your input forum poster "salty milk". I still have a vote button you arrogant piece of filth, and a post button what do you have more than i do that you seem so proud of? an account ccp haven't forum banned? good for you sunshine. since you insist of posting to spread ccps latest idea dressed up as "good" then they're not really likely to ban you are they? you tool it is precisely because the CSM is completely ineffective, at best, as you are happy to demonstrate, and that threadnaughts have worked very much longer than the csm has is why threadnaughts happen. you turning up and pretending everything is going to be ok doesnt change a thing. it will only be ok if we force ccp to make it ok. that is the way unfortunately it always has to be.
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:12:00 - [487] Originally by: MotherMoon OMG read thre thread. please I'll list the two biggest questions people want answered for you. 1.What you feel about CCP advertising the CSM as in support of just selling the the ship for aurum without trade in I thought this was settled? There was confusion and I have stated at least how I view our position. Quote: 2.Do you see the harm in the possibility of buying a ship just to reprocess it. It's cash for minerals more or less accessible from any station in any part fo the game. Absolutely. Insert dollar = get scorpion is bad. Quote: but seriously CCP is running around going "well the CSM like it so it must be a good idea!: defend yourselfs! And that has been walked back and the entire program pushed until this can be deconflicted. Basically, ~relax~.
Misha M'Liena Amarr 21st Eridani Lighthorse Eves Misguided Children	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:13:00 - [488] Vile Rat. I may not agree with you on this issue. But i am not in any shape agreeing with salty. That is a nasty dirty view. Wishing harm on a child is SHAMEFUL!!! You ought to be perma-banned from forums and game. Sorry Vile, maybe next issue we'll agree on. Misha.
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:14:00 - [489] Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: MotherMoon OMG read thre thread. please I'll list the two biggest questions people want answered for you. 1.What you feel about CCP advertising the CSM as in support of just selling the the ship for aurum without trade in I thought this was settled? There was confusion and I have stated at least how I view our position. Quote: 2.Do you see the harm in the possibility of buying a ship just to reprocess it. It's cash for minerals more or less accessible from any station in any part fo the game. Absolutely. Insert dollar = get scorpion is bad. Quote: but seriously CCP is running around going "well the CSM like it so it must be a good idea!: defend yourselfs! And that has been walked back and the entire program pushed until this can be deconflicted. Basically, ~relax~. great. fine. we can relax about this... maybe... so you're going to get on the issue of the patch hitting TQ in 6 days then.... __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:16:00 - [490] Originally by: Vile rat Quote: 2.Do you see the harm in the possibility of buying a ship just to reprocess it. It's cash for minerals more or less accessible from any station in any part fo the game. Absolutely. Insert dollar = get scorpion is bad. And yet apparently you don't have a problem with CCP implementing just that on a "temporary" basis. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:16:00 - [491] Edited by: Vile rat on 14/06/2011 16:17:16 Originally by: Soden Rah great. fine. we can relax about this... maybe... so you're going to get on the issue of the patch hitting TQ in 6 days then.... Quote: No, I think you might have missed a post. The plan is to put the ship into the EVE client for Incarna 1.0 but not put any in the game yet. In August, we will evaluate how things are going, how long until the store can support either BCPs or trade-ins, and then work with the CSM to pick a launch schedule for the ship. We are holding it back to go slower. The ship is going into the client but you can't get it until they figure out a way to make this work without magically making scorpions out of thin air. Quote: And yet apparently you don't have a problem with CCP implementing just that on a "temporary" basis. I made that post and then one of our logistics/finance guys starts explaining all the ways he'd abuse this. Let's say from the time I posted that "one week wouldn't be a big deal" to now I have changed my stance on this significantly.
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:17:00 - [492] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. rolf I love it. 1st it's We are going to released this ship in 7 days for aurum AND leave it like that for 3 or 4 months then it's.... Oh well we were going to wait until august. and now it's it OH! did I forgot to mention the tiny detail that it was going to be a one week release? That's kinda a big thing to over look there huh? I find the lack of CSM posting in this thread disturbing.... http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1527783&page=9#248 I added and bolded the part the clueless aren't getting and are too lazy to go back to read. Linkage for proof.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:17:00 - [493] OK everyone, its gone: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:19:00 - [494] Originally by: Vile rat The ship is going into the client but you can't get it until they figure out a way to make this work without magically making scorpions out of thin air. Then will come the fun of people magically making them disappear out of space. You'd have to be crazy to buy one of these ships... they all come with a giant bulls-eye right on them.
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:19:00 - [495] Originally by: Vile rat Edited by: Vile rat on 14/06/2011 16:17:16 Originally by: Soden Rah great. fine. we can relax about this... maybe... so you're going to get on the issue of the patch hitting TQ in 6 days then.... Quote: No, I think you might have missed a post. The plan is to put the ship into the EVE client for Incarna 1.0 but not put any in the game yet. In August, we will evaluate how things are going, how long until the store can support either BCPs or trade-ins, and then work with the CSM to pick a launch schedule for the ship. We are holding it back to go slower. The ship is going into the client but you can't get it until they figure out a way to make this work without magically making scorpions out of thin air. Quote: And yet apparently you don't have a problem with CCP implementing just that on a "temporary" basis. I made that post and then one of our logistics/finance guys starts explaining all the ways he'd abuse this. Let's say from the time I posted that "one week wouldn't be a big deal" to now I have changed my stance on this significantly. I meant the issues regarding Incarna and CQ. which is very much appearing in 6 days. see this thread and the original one linked in it __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:20:00 - [496] Edited by: Marlona Sky on 14/06/2011 16:21:04 Originally by: Vincent Athena OK everyone, its gone: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. I bolded the part you should be paying attention to. 1. For one week, you will have: Insert money, get spaceship game! and pray, pray very hard that it actually stops after that one week and the flood gates don't open... 2. The CSM ok'd this. Bad CSM!
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:23:00 - [497] Originally by: Marlona Sky Edited by: Marlona Sky on 14/06/2011 16:21:04 Originally by: Vincent Athena OK everyone, its gone: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. I bolded the part you should be paying attention to. 1. For one week, you will have: Insert money, get spaceship game! and pray, pray very hard that it actually stops after that one week and the flood gates don't open... 2. The CSM ok'd this. Bad CSM! I agree, the CSM should not have agreed to this. But at least CCP listened to us and seems to now be saying the ship is on hold.
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:26:00 - [498] Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: Erichk Knaar I got no problem with Scorp + Aurum = Golden scorp who is primary before even the other scorps. Aurum = Scorp is just so exploitable its not even funny. I mean, really CCP? You should know your players by now. I agree with this and share your viewpoint. About time! Perhaps this can be a lesson to you! Amazing how getting informed about an issue (like reading the thread and consulting with ppl who know what they are talking about) can help when forming an opinion isn't it... Honestly who can be anything but sad for the CSM. ------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
Meissa Anunthiel	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:27:00 - [499] Originally by: Marlona Sky Edited by: Marlona Sky on 14/06/2011 16:21:04 Originally by: Vincent Athena OK everyone, its gone: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. I bolded the part you should be paying attention to. 1. For one week, you will have: Insert money, get spaceship game! and pray, pray very hard that it actually stops after that one week and the flood gates don't open... 2. The CSM ok'd this. Bad CSM! We ok'ed this as a way for Zinfandel to be able to gather data and test the popularity of these things. The amount of "creation of items with nothing but $$" would be limited during that period (the "exchange a 'made' scorpion with a golden one was not deemed initially doable due to technical constraints they'd have to program around). So, given the limited time period, it was thus deemed an acceptable compromise for us. CSM 5 and CSM 6 have made their stance on RMT clear to CCP, and CCP understands the principle under which we are comfortable with them operating. Obviously, ideally, we wouldn't want any RMT, but it's always a matter of reaching acceptable compromise. Having a die-hard stance will accomplish nothing in this instance. Sooo... Given the limitations, I personally think this is still the way to go. Cut CCP some slack... ----- Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:29:00 - [500] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. Clearly you need to pull the concept of magically spawning ships completely. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I had scheduled the Ishukone Watch Scorpion for late August. And if it's a problem, we won't even start then. Let's wait a few months and see if the right thing to do is to keep waiting or roll it out. How can it NOT be a problem. Will you be compensating Scorpion manufacturers? No. Will it affect Scorpion sales? Yes Does it set a ridiculous precedent for ruining the economy? Yes Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. So basically you told the CSM that you were doing it and they had no choice but to like it or lump it. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Originally by: Silas Cooper Have you been paying attention at all? Right now the plan is to be able to buy said Scorp for AUR, without having to trade in anything else, let alone another Scorp. They'll "change" that soonÖ, since when do people who have played for more than 6 months really expect CCP to deliver on soonÖ? And why didn't the CSM protest and ask for the new ship to implement as soonÖ happens, afterall, it's just 3-4 months right? Apart from that, is the AUR amount going to chance the moment people have to also hand in a normal scorp or is that kinda not thought of, as the plan always ways for a direct AUR<>item exchange? No, I think you might have missed a post. The plan is to put the ship into the EVE client for Incarna 1.0 but not put any in the game yet. In August, we will evaluate how things are going, how long until the store can support either BCPs or trade-ins, and then work with the CSM to pick a launch schedule for the ship. Looking at the comments I have bolded throughout this post, you can see you are claiming to have put ships for aurum on hold but frankly, it looks like you are just going ahead with this in August as originally planned. How is anything different? If the Aurum store is not competent enough to do a decent job without completely breaking the player run economy then I suggest you don't go half arsed as usual and end up leaving it as a 'feature' which horribly cripples industrialism for the next 18 months. ~~~
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:29:00 - [501] Originally by: Ciar Meara Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: Erichk Knaar I got no problem with Scorp + Aurum = Golden scorp who is primary before even the other scorps. Aurum = Scorp is just so exploitable its not even funny. I mean, really CCP? You should know your players by now. I agree with this and share your viewpoint. About time! Perhaps this can be a lesson to you! Amazing how getting informed about an issue (like reading the thread and consulting with ppl who know what they are talking about) can help when forming an opinion isn't it... Honestly who can be anything but sad for the CSM. Hahahahahahahah
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:31:00 - [502] Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 16:36:26 Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: Erichk Knaar I got no problem with Scorp + Aurum = Golden scorp who is primary before even the other scorps. Aurum = Scorp is just so exploitable its not even funny. I mean, really CCP? You should know your players by now. I agree with this and share your viewpoint. I just wanted to say that, you're obviously in line with what the community wants. But in a 14 page threadnuat you posted without reading what peoples were **ed off about. it was like walking into a landmine with a minesweeper. :P just to show you what set all this off. Quote: In this first version of the store, we don't yet have support for BPCs. Specifically, we can't tell the BPC how many runs it has on it. So we can't use that as a way to sell the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship. Right now our plan is to temporarily sell whole ships until this fall when we will switch to requiring a normal Scorpion as part of the price. BPCs would have worked too, if we could support that. The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders. You see, it doesn't say, August, it doesn't say 1 week period, it just says "the CSM think it's ok!" So people were expecting you to be like "awww hell no, we didn't say it was ok, we came to an agreement" And the agreement is fine. It's just kinda a big deal for a CCP employ to misquote a CSM point of view. Despite all the anger sometimes thrown at you guys take as a sign of love. That people care at all to be angry, they consider you the last thing stopping MT from becoming "cash = ship" which as far as we were all aware was something the CSM wanted. So yeah if it's true it's always been the case then.. well.. ok cool. Just remember, people are not freaking out over nothing, they were freaking out over the lack of details on a subject, in which the only bone we were thrown was "we're releasing this asap, and the CSm think it's a good idea and fully support cash for ship without trade in, as long as we replace the offer at some point" also it would be nice if the CSM took some of the idea in the thread and shoved them down CCP throats. Namely one idea. Which was to have the aurum store sell a token. And make the ship exchange take place in the LP store we already have in the game. Which can already take a ship trade in. edit: was still typing this before you replied. I still think it might for far to say that CCP shouldn't speak for the CSM. :P and yes I'm relaxed now, and glad it's being backpedaled. Quote:** I made that post and then one of our logistics/finance guys starts explaining all the ways he'd abuse this. Let's say from the time I posted that "one week wouldn't be a big deal" to now I have changed my stance on this significantly. That's kinda all you had to say xP I wasn't worried it was going to happen I was worried you, as a CSM member, didn't see the horrible loopholes of the planed execution.
Draco Llasa	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:32:00 - [503] Originally by: Marlona Sky 1. For one week, you will have: Insert money, get spaceship game! and pray, pray very hard that it actually stops after that one week and the flood gates don't open... 2. The CSM ok'd this. Bad CSM! you are simply getting a skin, whats the harm.. as im sure its noted there is impact on production supplies and such long term if this is kept as a pay money for ship thing but assuming CCP hold to their word it wont be that way.. I personally (and i think others) support vanity items (even skinned ships) for AUR assuming the delivery method is right which ccp has acknowledged.
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:33:00 - [504] Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel Originally by: Marlona Sky Edited by: Marlona Sky on 14/06/2011 16:21:04 Originally by: Vincent Athena OK everyone, its gone: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. I bolded the part you should be paying attention to. 1. For one week, you will have: Insert money, get spaceship game! and pray, pray very hard that it actually stops after that one week and the flood gates don't open... 2. The CSM ok'd this. Bad CSM! We ok'ed this as a way for Zinfandel to be able to gather data and test the popularity of these things. The amount of "creation of items with nothing but $$" would be limited during that period (the "exchange a 'made' scorpion with a golden one was not deemed initially doable due to technical constraints they'd have to program around). So, given the limited time period, it was thus deemed an acceptable compromise for us. CSM 5 and CSM 6 have made their stance on RMT clear to CCP, and CCP understands the principle under which we are comfortable with them operating. Obviously, ideally, we wouldn't want any RMT, but it's always a matter of reaching acceptable compromise. Having a die-hard stance will accomplish nothing in this instance. Sooo... Given the limitations, I personally think this is still the way to go. Cut CCP some slack... There are a whole host of things that we have been looking forward to in Incarna in particular that now have the spectre of only being available via MT's ... What is currently on the table for RMT's and what is the CSM's stance on those items. For example, would it cost real money to have a customised captains quarters, or corporate conference room?... Would you have to pay real money for corp/alliance decals on your ship?... If ccp wants feedback on this they can TELL US what they are considering... and we can tell them what we consider acceptable, or not. and this before a single line of code is written or hour of dev time wasted. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:33:00 - [505] Edited by: Lady Spank on 14/06/2011 16:35:22 edit save it for another time, subject of the thread is more important ~~~
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:33:00 - [506] CCP, This is the kind of BS that I hate the most. You're losing credibility by implementing a feature that you know the community in general doesn't want: MT. Yet, you decide to proceed calming and cooing us with prostrations that it will be in a way that is acceptable to the vast majority of your players. When it finally comes time to implement it you do so in a way that is completely unacceptable. Now, you're backing off until August...or so you say. And what, may I ask, in August will you present us with? Seriously, I'm waiting for the hat to drop concerning the Isukone Scorpion. I'm expecting that it will be as you say: Normal ship + aurum = Isukone Scorpion. Except I fully expect you guys to 'inform' us that it will have different stats that "only slightly" make it more powerful. Right? Is that the next detail you're going to try and slip in? Your explanation during the tourney was less than convincing. You stated that the Isukone Scorpion would be functionally similar. Yet the example you used implies that ALL combat ships are functionally similar. I want to know, is the Isukone Scorpion identical in stats as a regular Scorpion? Will it have the same shield, armor and structure hitpoints? Will it have the same number of highslots, mids, lows? Will it have the same number of missile launcher hardpoints? Will it have the same em, therm, kin, exp resistances? Will it have the same number of points for cpu, power grid, cap recharge? Will it have the same targeting range? Will it have the same sig radius, alignment times? Will it have the same speed at normal, ab and mwd speeds? Will it have the same cargo space? Will it have the same bonuses? Will anything not mentioned, aside from the paint job, on the Isukone Scorpion differ from the Scorpion that is currently available on the market? I know that I'm asking a lot of detailed questions. Unfortunately, it seems without asking you very pointed and specific questions we can no longer trust you to give us answers that aren't susceptible to interpretation to the extent that they are rendered unreliable.
Misha M'Liena Amarr 21st Eridani Lighthorse Eves Misguided Children	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:33:00 - [507] Obviously, ideally, we wouldn't want any RMT, but it's always a matter of reaching acceptable compromise. Having a die-hard stance will accomplish nothing in this instance. Sooo... Given the limitations, I personally think this is still the way to go. Cut CCP some slack... Uhhh, Did you just say that your allowing ccp to get away with rmt? Misha.
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:35:00 - [508] Originally by: Draco Llasa Originally by: Marlona Sky 1. For one week, you will have: Insert money, get spaceship game! and pray, pray very hard that it actually stops after that one week and the flood gates don't open... 2. The CSM ok'd this. Bad CSM! you are simply getting a skin, whats the harm.. as im sure its noted there is impact on production supplies and such long term if this is kept as a pay money for ship thing but assuming CCP hold to their word it wont be that way.. I personally (and i think others) support vanity items (even skinned ships) for AUR assuming the delivery method is right which ccp has acknowledged. the point of a CSM delegate is to promote the wishes of the players as a whole... not your own personal preferences. This should have been brought up By you in a thread in assembly hall where you said... CCP has come to us with this, there are the following issues to consider... what would you find acceptable... __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:38:00 - [509] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 14/06/2011 16:39:53 Dear terrible CSM guy, besides your duty is to bring OUR opinions to CCP and not yours, the following is a piece of crock: Quote: The ship is going into the client but you can't get it until they figure out a way to make this work without magically making scorpions out of thin air. I opened a random LP store where I can trade in a regular ship + tokens + LP + whatever or even do the same for a BPC and I get a faction ship (= different model, skin and ID) So what's so hard adding a LP store entry where you trade a scorpion + aurum + whatever and get a new one? Oh wait, that would mean they have to DELIVER over an already (awful but) FUNCTIONAL LP store while they want to implement some colorful, aurum dedicated new POS right? IE duplication of functionality and screwup for game economy just to beta test the OH SO REQUESTED RMT aurum. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:38:00 - [510] We all should just calm down and consult the meeting minutes from the CSM Summit which was in May to see what was actually said...
WarptuSon	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:39:00 - [511] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. I think you guys missed the fundamental point of everyone posting here. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion come from spray paint cans, which are produced using PI, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion an LP reward, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion a BPC drop from a mission, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. You are making the new 'skin' on the scorpion originating from a cash transaction only. Everyone has a problem. It is out-of-game creation. Basically, there are a billions ways to seed a new skin for ship into the game. So I don't think you can legimately say you are trying to solve some irreconcilable issue to get new content to players.
knobber Jobbler Holding Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:40:00 - [512] Vanity items for sale only please. No to anything that game changes especially BPC's and BPO's.
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:40:00 - [513] Originally by: Draco Llasa Originally by: Marlona Sky 1. For one week, you will have: Insert money, get spaceship game! and pray, pray very hard that it actually stops after that one week and the flood gates don't open... 2. The CSM ok'd this. Bad CSM! you are simply getting a skin, whats the harm.. as im sure its noted there is impact on production supplies and such long term if this is kept as a pay money for ship thing but assuming CCP hold to their word it wont be that way.. I personally (and i think others) support vanity items (even skinned ships) for AUR assuming the delivery method is right which ccp has acknowledged. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL... Let me guess, not going to read the previous 14 pages right?
Mica Swanhaven	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:41:00 - [514] I'm glad you backpetaled csm. but can you least comment on this? Quote: "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. It sounds like he was saying you guys were totally 100% ok with selling the ship for aurum for months... is CCP jsut talking out thier *** or did you guys really tell CCP to sell it for months? and again thanks for listen to the playerbase/ your industry alts in your corp.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:41:00 - [515] Quote: We all should just calm down and consult the meeting minutes from the CSM Summit which was in May to see what was actually said... Because things said in May are forcibly going to be relevant and guaranteed to be done! Oh wait, wrong game. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:42:00 - [516] Originally by: Misha M'Liena it's always a matter of reaching acceptable compromise. Misha. Why?
Yakov Pavlov	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:42:00 - [517] Great, the CSM members who have stumbled blindly into this thread are now grasping at the thin thread of, "What's the harm?!" I'll tell you what the harm is. You've acquiesced to the violation of THE core principle of the Eve economy .. everything is player-made. Now you may be right that 1 week of Scorps for $$ will not impact the economy. But the problem is that the new principle is MT is ok if its "not that bad." And the really big problem is that there is NO definition of "not that bad" that cannot be exploited by CCP for the MT plans. Ok, 1 week is not that bad .. how bout 2 weeks or 2 months? I mean really what's the damage, right? Or how about selling ships that people don't care about? I mean what's the damage, there are only 5 people who manufacture ship X ... Where do you draw the line CSM?! You can't with any logical consistency now draw a line because the previous line (see core principle above) has been abrogated (Apologies CSM Vile Rat, that word may require some effort). tl;dr The precedent is set .. anything goes and will go now in re MT.
knobber Jobbler Holding Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:42:00 - [518] Edited by: knobber Jobbler on 14/06/2011 16:43:48 Originally by: Vile rat Absolutely. Insert dollar = get scorpion is bad. Get anything that isn't a vanity item = Bad. I really don't like the way this is going in general. We've already seen how real $$$ can affect the outcome of major null sec wars. Lets not let legitimate RMT screw up everything else please.
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:43:00 - [519] Originally by: A huge turd poster Dear terrible CSM guy, besides your duty is to bring OUR opinions to CCP and not yours, the following is a piece of crock: Quote: The ship is going into the client but you can't get it until they figure out a way to make this work without magically making scorpions out of thin air. I opened a random LP store where I can trade in a regular ship + tokens + LP + whatever or even do the same for a BPC and I get a faction ship (= different model, skin and ID) So what's so hard adding a LP store entry where you trade a scorpion + aurum + whatever and get a new one? Dunno but this is a technical barrier they need to figure out before it's a mechanism that we'd support.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:44:00 - [520] Originally by: WarptuSon I think you guys missed the fundamental point of everyone posting here. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion come from spray paint cans, which are produced using PI, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion an LP reward, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion a BPC drop from a mission, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. You are making the new 'skin' on the scorpion originating from a cash transaction only. Everyone has a problem. It is out-of-game creation. Basically, there are a billions ways to seed a new skin for ship into the game. So I don't think you can legimately say you are trying to solve some irreconcilable issue to get new content to players. want to sell classing on reading. No one has any issue with cash for paintjobs in this thread. It was never about paint jobs being an issue. It was about buying the whole ship with a different paint job for isk. More or less it was buy ship for cash. But thankfully CSM have changed it so we don't have to worry. CSM you should find a way to make a post to reach the great community. You know the people that won't read every single page? Maybe make a new thread? Make CCP publish a CSM dev blog about the issue and address the community at large? That or get a fireside chat up and running asap.
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:46:00 - [521] Originally by: MotherMoon CSM you should find a way to make a post to reach the great community. You know the people that won't read every single page? Maybe make a new thread? Make CCP publish a CSM dev blog about the issue and address the community at large? That or get a fireside chat up and running asap. We're going to do this soon. We're just waiting for these damn minutes to be finished (argh!).
Misha M'Liena Amarr 21st Eridani Lighthorse Eves Misguided Children	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:47:00 - [522] Originally by: Mr Kidd Originally by: Misha M'Liena it's always a matter of reaching acceptable compromise. Misha. Why? The csm Selene said that.....My comment was uhh what. Sorry. i'll go edit again Misha.
Draco Llasa	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:47:00 - [523] Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Draco Llasa Originally by: Marlona Sky 1. For one week, you will have: Insert money, get spaceship game! and pray, pray very hard that it actually stops after that one week and the flood gates don't open... 2. The CSM ok'd this. Bad CSM! you are simply getting a skin, whats the harm.. as im sure its noted there is impact on production supplies and such long term if this is kept as a pay money for ship thing but assuming CCP hold to their word it wont be that way.. I personally (and i think others) support vanity items (even skinned ships) for AUR assuming the delivery method is right which ccp has acknowledged. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL... Let me guess, not going to read the previous 14 pages right? 18 now.. and now way.. its much more fun to spout out comments in the middle of a discussion and then walk away and watch everyone spin in circles arguing over semantics :) on a serious note.. MTs are happening.. its a fact of life in teh gaming industry.. i think its good that CCP is willing to work with us to make it only vanity items.. as for the comments of representing the player base.. i beleive i am.. i feel that if a pool was taken of eve players (and not just the forum trolls) the majority of people (i know not all) would vote vanity items/ship skins for AUR is acceptable as long as the items sold do not change the balance of power in any way
StillBorn CrackBaby	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:47:00 - [524] Originally by: Evelgrivion Nobody is going to quit EVE because they couldn't get a navy paint job soon enough. Are you kidding? I'll quit immediately if I can't get a new paint job. Geez some people...
WarptuSon	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:48:00 - [525] Originally by: Vile rat Edited by: Vile rat on 14/06/2011 16:17:16 The ship is going into the client but you can't get it until they figure out a way to make this work without magically making scorpions out of thin air. Huh? Did they forget how to their game works? wtf?
Yakov Pavlov	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:48:00 - [526] Originally by: Vile rat We're going to do this soon. We're just waiting for these damn minutes to be finished (argh!). We could wait but really what's the harm with the playerbase thinking that you bent over for CCP and their MT $ grab?
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:49:00 - [527] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 14/06/2011 16:50:47 Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: A huge turd poster So what's so hard adding a LP store entry where you trade a scorpion + aurum + whatever and get a new one? Dunno but this is a technical barrier they need to figure out before it's a mechanism that we'd support. I'm not understanding the "technical barrier". The logic already exists. Copy/Paste + fiddle = win. The LP store is already a working, perfect model for the Aurum store. It's most disconcerting that there is some "barrier" which prevents them from doing such. I suspect the "barrier" is CCP wants direct cash for magic stuff. Please dissuade me from such a belief.
Meissa Anunthiel	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:49:00 - [528] Originally by: WarptuSon I think you guys missed the fundamental point of everyone posting here. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion come from spray paint cans, which are produced using PI, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion an LP reward, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion a BPC drop from a mission, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. You are making the new 'skin' on the scorpion originating from a cash transaction only. Everyone has a problem. It is out-of-game creation. Basically, there are a billions ways to seed a new skin for ship into the game. So I don't think you can legimately say you are trying to solve some irreconcilable issue to get new content to players. You missed the bus on this one, we already debated this issue at length. Let me paraphrase a tiny bit the history: CCP wanted to add microtransactions (ie, real cash for items). CSM 5 went ballistic and said "no effing way". CCP explained to the CSM that there are people who are willing to spend more cash on their hobbies. CSM and CCP argued at length, in the end we reached a compromise and CSM 5 managed to change CCP's stance to only allow "vanity" items. ie, items that do not provide a competitive advantage, and as long as the core features are still available to all. CSM 6, when presented with the first iteration of the item store (the one available on SiSi for testing at the moment), was very happy with the items provided and their quality, with the way they were provided and with CCP's plan for the future in that regard (more in the meeting minutes that are going to get released). As far as the Ishukone Issue Scorpion was concerned (which, incidentally, we found very pretty), CCP announced that they wouldn't be able to redeem an existing scorpion with a golden one initially due to technical constraints. CSM answered we'd rather CCP wait until that technical issue was fixed. CCP asked if it was acceptable if the offer was only available for a short time (ie, a couple of weeks), we answered that, while we'd rather CCP wait, it could be acceptable. This is the whole of it. Zinfandel misquoted us by mistake, he corrected his error, now let's all cool down a tiny bit... The end of the world is not coming. ----- Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6
Yakov Pavlov	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:50:00 - [529] Edited by: Yakov Pavlov on 14/06/2011 16:55:00 Originally by: Mr Kidd Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: A huge turd poster So what's so hard adding a LP store entry where you trade a scorpion + aurum + whatever and get a new one? Dunno but this is a technical barrier they need to figure out before it's a mechanism that we'd support. I'm not understanding the "technical barrier". The logic already exists. Copy/Paste + fiddle = win. It's most disconcerting that there is some "barrier" which prevents them from doing such. I suspect the "barrier" is CCP wants direct cash for magic stuff. Please dissuade me from such a belief. To understand the sad state that Eve is currently in and the fumbling of every patch by CCP ... read this > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
WarptuSon	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:50:00 - [530] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: WarptuSon I think you guys missed the fundamental point of everyone posting here. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion come from spray paint cans, which are produced using PI, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion an LP reward, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion a BPC drop from a mission, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. You are making the new 'skin' on the scorpion originating from a cash transaction only. Everyone has a problem. It is out-of-game creation. Basically, there are a billions ways to seed a new skin for ship into the game. So I don't think you can legimately say you are trying to solve some irreconcilable issue to get new content to players. want to sell classing on reading. No one has any issue with cash for paintjobs in this thread. It was never about paint jobs being an issue. It was about buying the whole ship with a different paint job for isk. More or less it was buy ship for cash. you are being overly picky, the new skinned scorpion was obviously what i meant
Maplestone	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:52:00 - [531] Originally by: Draco Llasa you are simply getting a skin, whats the harm. Is it a skin or a "shoot me" sticker? :)
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Sick Tight BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:53:00 - [532] Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel Originally by: WarptuSon I think you guys missed the fundamental point of everyone posting here. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion come from spray paint cans, which are produced using PI, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion an LP reward, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. If you made the new 'skin' on the scorpion a BPC drop from a mission, then no one would have a problem. It is in-game creation. You are making the new 'skin' on the scorpion originating from a cash transaction only. Everyone has a problem. It is out-of-game creation. Basically, there are a billions ways to seed a new skin for ship into the game. So I don't think you can legimately say you are trying to solve some irreconcilable issue to get new content to players. You missed the bus on this one, we already debated this issue at length. Let me paraphrase a tiny bit the history: CCP wanted to add microtransactions (ie, real cash for items). CSM 5 went ballistic and said "no effing way". CCP explained to the CSM that there are people who are willing to spend more cash on their hobbies. CSM and CCP argued at length, in the end we reached a compromise and CSM 5 managed to change CCP's stance to only allow "vanity" items. ie, items that do not provide a competitive advantage, and as long as the core features are still available to all. CSM 6, when presented with the first iteration of the item store (the one available on SiSi for testing at the moment), was very happy with the items provided and their quality, with the way they were provided and with CCP's plan for the future in that regard (more in the meeting minutes that are going to get released). As far as the Ishukone Issue Scorpion was concerned (which, incidentally, we found very pretty), CCP announced that they wouldn't be able to redeem an existing scorpion with a golden one initially due to technical constraints. CSM answered we'd rather CCP wait until that technical issue was fixed. CCP asked if it was acceptable if the offer was only available for a short time (ie, a couple of weeks), we answered that, while we'd rather CCP wait, it could be acceptable. This is the whole of it. Zinfandel misquoted us by mistake, he corrected his error, now let's all cool down a tiny bit... The end of the world is not coming. Bolded the part where CSM has failed, and the reason we should NOT cool down at all. Originally by: McKinlay When you get on the batphone and the only people left in the phone book are Aeternus and BLAST it might be time to hang up.
Draco Llasa	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:53:00 - [533] Originally by: Maplestone Originally by: Draco Llasa you are simply getting a skin, whats the harm. Is it a skin or a "shoot me" sticker? :) hopefully both :)
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:54:00 - [534] Originally by: Mr Kidd Edited by: Mr Kidd on 14/06/2011 16:50:47 Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: A huge turd poster So what's so hard adding a LP store entry where you trade a scorpion + aurum + whatever and get a new one? Dunno but this is a technical barrier they need to figure out before it's a mechanism that we'd support. I'm not understanding the "technical barrier". The logic already exists. Copy/Paste + fiddle = win. The LP store is already a working, perfect model for the Aurum store. It's most disconcerting that there is some "barrier" which prevents them from doing such. I suspect the "barrier" is CCP wants direct cash for magic stuff. Please dissuade me from such a belief. I don't have to dissuade you from ****. They're holding off until they figure whatever 'it' is and that's fine with me. They either change it and we're sunshine/rainbows, or we're back to square one and it's something we will confront.
Meissa Anunthiel	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:54:00 - [535] Originally by: Mr Kidd Edited by: Mr Kidd on 14/06/2011 16:50:47 Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: A huge turd poster So what's so hard adding a LP store entry where you trade a scorpion + aurum + whatever and get a new one? Dunno but this is a technical barrier they need to figure out before it's a mechanism that we'd support. I'm not understanding the "technical barrier". The logic already exists. Copy/Paste + fiddle = win. The LP store is already a working, perfect model for the Aurum store. It's most disconcerting that there is some "barrier" which prevents them from doing such. I suspect the "barrier" is CCP wants direct cash for magic stuff. Please dissuade me from such a belief. It doesn't currently exist in the aurum store (as far as I know, at least not for ships). Right now there's support for "give aurum, obtain item". Redeeming is not part of the process. And no, copy/paste is not applicable. It's almost never a case of "just 2 lines of code". What happens with fitted ships, or rigged ships, what happens if there's more than 1 ship on the stack, etc. Things are not necessarily as straightforward as they may seem, and even if they are, they still need to be coded, tested, deployed, etc. and that takes time. ----- Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:56:00 - [536] Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel You missed the bus on this one, we already debated this issue at length. Let me paraphrase a tiny bit the history: CCP wanted to add microtransactions (ie, real cash for items). CSM 5 went ballistic and said "no effing way". CCP explained to the CSM that there are people who are willing to spend more cash on their hobbies. CSM and CCP argued at length, in the end we reached a compromise and CSM 5 managed to change CCP's stance to only allow "vanity" items. ie, items that do not provide a competitive advantage, and as long as the core features are still available to all. CSM 6, when presented with the first iteration of the item store (the one available on SiSi for testing at the moment), was very happy with the items provided and their quality, with the way they were provided and with CCP's plan for the future in that regard (more in the meeting minutes that are going to get released). As far as the Ishukone Issue Scorpion was concerned (which, incidentally, we found very pretty), CCP announced that they wouldn't be able to redeem an existing scorpion with a golden one initially due to technical constraints. CSM answered we'd rather CCP wait until that technical issue was fixed. CCP asked if it was acceptable if the offer was only available for a short time (ie, a couple of weeks), we answered that, while we'd rather CCP wait, it could be acceptable. This is the whole of it. Zinfandel misquoted us by mistake, he corrected his error, now let's all cool down a tiny bit... The end of the world is not coming. I feel like this post should be bumped. Good job CCP for hearing what a fairly large portion of the player base is saying again. Slade :Signature Temporarily Disabled:
Yakov Pavlov	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:58:00 - [537] Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel Things are not necessarily as straightforward as they may seem, and even if they are, they still need to be coded, tested, deployed, etc. and that takes time. But while we wait, we agreed that CCP should fundamentally break the core principle that makes the Eve economy what it is .. but only to test that breaking said principle is do-able and can be expanded in the future ... pathetic.
Vile rat	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:58:00 - [538] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel You missed the bus on this one, we already debated this issue at length. Let me paraphrase a tiny bit the history: CCP wanted to add microtransactions (ie, real cash for items). CSM 5 went ballistic and said "no effing way". CCP explained to the CSM that there are people who are willing to spend more cash on their hobbies. CSM and CCP argued at length, in the end we reached a compromise and CSM 5 managed to change CCP's stance to only allow "vanity" items. ie, items that do not provide a competitive advantage, and as long as the core features are still available to all. CSM 6, when presented with the first iteration of the item store (the one available on SiSi for testing at the moment), was very happy with the items provided and their quality, with the way they were provided and with CCP's plan for the future in that regard (more in the meeting minutes that are going to get released). As far as the Ishukone Issue Scorpion was concerned (which, incidentally, we found very pretty), CCP announced that they wouldn't be able to redeem an existing scorpion with a golden one initially due to technical constraints. CSM answered we'd rather CCP wait until that technical issue was fixed. CCP asked if it was acceptable if the offer was only available for a short time (ie, a couple of weeks), we answered that, while we'd rather CCP wait, it could be acceptable. This is the whole of it. Zinfandel misquoted us by mistake, he corrected his error, now let's all cool down a tiny bit... The end of the world is not coming. I feel like this post should be bumped. Good job CCP for hearing what a fairly large portion of the player base is saying again. Slade No I'd prefer we stick to outright insults and lunatic accusations.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:59:00 - [539] Originally by: Vile rat I don't have to dissuade you from ****. Hmmm, with comments like this I'm not surprised we are where we're at. Perhaps in dealing with CCP you should learn the meaning and use of the word 'No'. It's pronounced nō. It means to refuse or to deny.
Whim Aqayn	Posted - 2011.06.14 16:59:00 - [540] No microtransactions at all or I'm gonna unsubscribe in a heartbeat. We all know that it's not going to stay reserved for vanity items only. CCP will slowly sneak in items that affect the game just like all the other companies that used business model before. I don't believe a word of what Zinfandel is saying.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.14 17:00:00 - [541] Draco.... if you can buy a ship, with a new skin, without trading in an old ship... then you bought a new ship skin for cash yes, which is fine. But you also just bought a ship for cash. So I defend the person you replied to. Even the 1 week trial is not ok. It's not just a ship skin we are buying for aurum if there is no trade in. I'd like to thank vile rat for his support, and I hope those minutes are get finished so if CCP misquote the CSm again we can point it out. again a CCP dev really said that you guys were in support for selling the ship for pure Aurum for 3-4 months. that IS something to freak out about :P
Yakov Pavlov	Posted - 2011.06.14 17:00:00 - [542] Originally by: Vile rat Originally by: Slade Trillgon Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel You missed the bus on this one, we already debated this issue at length. Let me paraphrase a tiny bit the history: CCP wanted to add microtransactions (ie, real cash for items). CSM 5 went ballistic and said "no effing way". CCP explained to the CSM that there are people who are willing to spend more cash on their hobbies. CSM and CCP argued at length, in the end we reached a compromise and CSM 5 managed to change CCP's stance to only allow "vanity" items. ie, items that do not provide a competitive advantage, and as long as the core features are still available to all. CSM 6, when presented with the first iteration of the item store (the one available on SiSi for testing at the moment), was very happy with the items provided and their quality, with the way they were provided and with CCP's plan for the future in that regard (more in the meeting minutes that are going to get released). As far as the Ishukone Issue Scorpion was concerned (which, incidentally, we found very pretty), CCP announced that they wouldn't be able to redeem an existing scorpion with a golden one initially due to technical constraints. CSM answered we'd rather CCP wait until that technical issue was fixed. CCP asked if it was acceptable if the offer was only available for a short time (ie, a couple of weeks), we answered that, while we'd rather CCP wait, it could be acceptable. This is the whole of it. Zinfandel misquoted us by mistake, he corrected his error, now let's all cool down a tiny bit... The end of the world is not coming. I feel like this post should be bumped. Good job CCP for hearing what a fairly large portion of the player base is saying again. Slade No I'd prefer we stick to outright insults and lunatic accusations. Mr. Vile, I believe the you'll find the insults stem from your bungling behavior in thread and your continued inability to answer some questions .. wow, CCP must have held training during your Icelandic vacation.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.14 23:41:00 - [543] Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet The market won't break. Reprocessing a skinned Scorp won't be as cost-efficient as reprocessing a normal Scorp, so no one will do it. Yes, the market breaks, even if it is one ship, even if prices eve wide don't move a bit, reprocessed or not. Productive capacity was added to the in-game world with out there being effort expended in the game to create that ship. That one ship steals a tiny bit from everyone's experience, past and future. Feel free to respond with the typical relativist straw man. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Erik CoolBreeze Amarr eve-universe.net	Posted - 2011.06.14 23:50:00 - [544] Last I checked you couldn't buy it yet, so why don't we save the whining until we can. professional web development for the eve community
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.14 23:52:00 - [545] Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Last I checked you couldn't buy it yet, so why don't we save the whining until we can. You don't ever brush your teeth, I take it? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.06.14 23:55:00 - [546] Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Last I checked you couldn't buy it yet, so why don't we save the whining until we can. Because we are trying to PREVENT this stupidity from happening. How dumb do you have to be to not realise this? ~~~
Manda Rin Minmatar Sexy Thoughts	Posted - 2011.06.14 23:58:00 - [547] Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Last I checked you couldn't buy it yet, so why don't we save the whining until we can. Good lord. Do you go to the toilet BEFORE, or AFTER you crap your pants?
Zakua Corbin	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:05:00 - [548] Originally by: Manda Rin Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Last I checked you couldn't buy it yet, so why don't we save the whining until we can. Good lord. Do you go to the toilet BEFORE, or AFTER you crap your pants? LMAO, I love this place!!! Classic!
Vandrion Gallente The Collective B O R G	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:11:00 - [549] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. Bolded, underlined and Italicized the important bit here... Am I just going insane or did we not hear during the Alliance Tourney Day 2 coverage when they showed the ship that it would be rolled out this summer as a straight up Aurum for item trade and not be changed to a scorp + Aurum for a Ishukone scorp until late fall???????? Maybe I need to switch brands of crack but instead I call BS on the one week statement. You never had the intention of testing it for a week... Double speak to cover the tracks! Atleast be honest and admit a mistake and move on.... Now on the other end-- Why the heck is Dust going to impact Eve sov mechanics??? Dust will allow $$$ for items/advantages that will impact how Eve is played... Not good..... RL $$$ alter our game
Norrin Ellis Venture Racing	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:11:00 - [550] I admit that I haven't pored over this thread with the diligence of the truly hardcore EVE players, but I did read the dev's response, and it seems to me that the question was put to our democratically-elected CSM, who gave the green light to go ahead. I certainly hope, if everyone is as miffed as they seem to be (possibly rightfully, as I'm no expert), that consequences will be delivered during the next election.
Chris Fierce Caldari NoD Imperium	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:16:00 - [551] Edited by: Chris Fierce on 15/06/2011 00:17:01 Still just a total waste of man hours. Lets make things look pretty, gameplay isn't important. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1425870 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1489084 etc.
mkint	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:17:00 - [552] Originally by: Zakua Corbin Originally by: Manda Rin Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Last I checked you couldn't buy it yet, so why don't we save the whining until we can. Good lord. Do you go to the toilet BEFORE, or AFTER you crap your pants? LMAO, I love this place!!! Classic! Is it just me, or is it embarrassing how much time the players need to sit on the proverbial ****ter? CCP needs to hire someone who's sole job is to stop the rest of the devs from doing or saying anything stupid. Usually that's management's job, but they seem to suck at it.
Erik CoolBreeze Amarr eve-universe.net	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:23:00 - [553] Why do I even bother, bloody forum tards. Get your head out of your ass and read the part where CCP mentions the 'short term sale' of A SINGLE SHIP. To be changed to ship exchange. Bloody panic monkeys.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:27:00 - [554] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 15/06/2011 00:32:57 Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Why do I even bother, bloody forum tards. Get your head out of your ass and read the part where CCP mentions the 'short term sale' of A SINGLE SHIP. To be changed to ship exchange. Bloody panic monkeys. CSM Vile alt detected. The outrage is due in part to CCP implementing MT in a way that is contradictory to how they said they would implement it. I guess everyone is afraid that if this "test" period were allowed that CCP couldn't be arsed to change it when the time elapsed. More likely CCP would state something to the effect that the "technical barriers" were too difficult and so they would keep it a straight Aurum for ship transaction completely circumventing the Eve economy. That's why the community is rather up in arms about it. It's unfortunate that you can't see the back pedaling and double speak for what it is rather than what CCP tells you it is not. I, like most people, just don't have that much faith in corporations....for good reason.
Acac Sunflyier Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:30:00 - [555] You know I have a track record with CCP. They never read my posts. So this one is probably going to get lost in the swarms of pages but heh I gotta make my attempt. So... Dear CCP, You're a pretty good game company. You made a really cool game that has many little niches for the players to fill. If you want to haul there is a game mechanic for you. If you want to PvP there are many things you can do there. But frankly I can't see how this helps game play. There are many micro transaction games where I can buy in game items for money. Lord of the Rings, Silk Road, SWG has their card game that gives in game items. But I never thought I'd see Eve turn into such a big micro transaction game. I don't want to see a paint job Thorx come from the Aur Market. Clothes I could see maybe. Alliance logos yeah why not? But frankly giving away an in game item for Aur isn't the way to go. These things should be doable from the player base. And not allowing the players to do it themselves but have to get these items from the Aur market hurts the in game market. No matter how you look at this it's going to hurt the market. What do I want to buy for a mission? A thorax? Or a thorax with a cool paint job? Both do the same stuff. So thorax with a paint job. That's kinda what navy ships are. Though they get 1 more slot and slightly better stats they're pretty much ships with a paint job. At least there you could earn it and sell it. But Aur ships have no work put into them. Plex = better stuff = micro transactions. I hate micro transaction games. They're not fun. It's nickel and dimeing people in the strictest sense. Let the store give things like clothes and logos. Heck even let the store sell a flat out pain job for a ship you have. But don't sell us an item in the store. It hurts us and makes the game worse. Sincerly, Acac Sunflyier~
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:31:00 - [556] Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Why do I even bother, bloody forum tards. Get your head out of your ass and read the part where CCP mentions the 'short term sale' of A SINGLE SHIP. To be changed to ship exchange. Bloody panic monkeys. If by short you mean three to 4 months. then yes. Also they changed it to 1-2 weeks. And it lets you buy ships in 0.0 buy just docking in any station, the hell with the regional economy!
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:31:00 - [557] Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Why do I even bother You didn't. Try reading the thread. It will explain everything. Quote: read the part where CCP mentions the 'short term sale' of A SINGLE SHIP. Now read the part where it wasn't. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tilt3d	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:32:00 - [558] Can you say SWG?
Linda Shadowborn Gallente Dark Steel Industries	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:32:00 - [559] Originally by: MotherMoon you know, on one hand i was kinda kidding. But at least we read threads before we post on them, even if we have to read 14 pages 1st. Well... since the current communications from CCP and the CSM is kind of a joke... how much worse could it be? ... no wait.. dont answer that
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:35:00 - [560] Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Why do I even bother, bloody forum tards. Get your head out of your ass and read the part where CCP mentions the 'short term sale' of A SINGLE SHIP. To be changed to ship exchange. Bloody panic monkeys. I think CCP should implement an I.Q. test in an effort to improve the quality of these forums. ~~~
Distortus	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:39:00 - [561] Dear CCP, we pay our monthly subscription to not have a game with this mickymouse MT bull****.
Acac Sunflyier Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:40:00 - [562] Originally by: Tilt3d Can you say LoTORO or Silk Road or League of Legends? Fixed for ya
mkint	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:42:00 - [563] Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Why do I even bother, bloody forum tards. Get your head out of your ass and read the part where CCP mentions the 'short term sale' of A SINGLE SHIP. To be changed to ship exchange. Bloody panic monkeys. You probably shouldn't bother. Really. You don't seem to understand what the word "economy" means. The other times CCP has done something stupid like this, in a matter of hours trillions of isk of assets were created out of thin air. We don't know the pricing on this yet, but over the course of a few days it could completely destroy both PLEX and mineral markets in such a dramatic way that it would take years to recover. Imagine building a fleet of titans without needing to worry about mining minerals or hauling minerals from highsec. Just a matter of docking up in your outpost, pushing button, receiving bacon. PLEX prices would skyrocket, because a titan's worth of plex could be hauled in a frig. Isk would flood the market from insurance claims, making prices on everything skyrocket. There would be a direct $ -> isk conversion rate not affected by supply and demand at all. It would not matter how many pathways there are from $ -> NPC -> isk, even one, even for just a couple hours, will completely destroy the economy WHEN (not if) the players abuse it.
Erik CoolBreeze Amarr	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:43:00 - [564] Originally by: Mr Kidd Edited by: Mr Kidd on 15/06/2011 00:32:57 Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Why do I even bother, bloody forum tards. Get your head out of your ass and read the part where CCP mentions the 'short term sale' of A SINGLE SHIP. To be changed to ship exchange. Bloody panic monkeys. CSM Vile alt detected. myea, no, sorry, not an alt, just a newb. The outrage is due in part to CCP implementing MT in a way that is contradictory to how they said they would implement it. I guess everyone is afraid that if this "test" period were allowed that CCP couldn't be arsed to change it when the time elapsed. From a developer point of view this is more a quick and dirty way to implement this rather than trying to screw the in-game economy. They have to make some major changes to the database to implement different skins for every ship as to not get different iterations for every ship clogging up the db. (have you seen the static data dump, it's a mess!) So if anything this should be a "don't release this ** until it is completely functional" thread More likely CCP would state something to the effect that the "technical barriers" were too difficult and so they would keep it a straight Aurum for ship transaction completely circumventing the Eve economy. That's why the community is rather up in arms about it. It's unfortunate that you can't see the back pedaling and double speak for what it is rather than what CCP tells you it is not. I, like most people, just don't have that much faith in corporations....for good reason. So let me play devil's advocate here, instead of people buying plex and paying YOU for that ship, they pay CCP for that ship, what entitles you to that money over CCP? Is it perfect? hell no, is it fair? no, it certainly isn't. My 2 ct: ships get more expensive in eve as the indy tries to make ends meat. BUT with newbs buying big shiny ships for isk, loot will be bigger as well. Not to mention the new blood this will attract, because let's face it, it will seriously take the learning curve down, newer players will find it easier to get into eve. In the end though, let's wait and see what happens, no need to *** and moan before anything is truly screwed up.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:47:00 - [565] Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze So if anything this should be a "don't release this ** until it is completely functional" thread Guess what? It is. Quote:** So let me play devil's advocate here, instead of people buying plex and paying YOU for that ship, they pay CCP for that ship, what entitles you to that money over CCP? What money? CCP gets their money either way, and the other player never gets any money either way. The problem here is that it circumvents the entire in-game market ù the core mechanism of the game. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
mkint	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:47:00 - [566] Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Originally by: Mr Kidd Edited by: Mr Kidd on 15/06/2011 00:32:57 Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Why do I even bother, bloody forum tards. Get your head out of your ass and read the part where CCP mentions the 'short term sale' of A SINGLE SHIP. To be changed to ship exchange. Bloody panic monkeys. CSM Vile alt detected. myea, no, sorry, not an alt, just a newb. The outrage is due in part to CCP implementing MT in a way that is contradictory to how they said they would implement it. I guess everyone is afraid that if this "test" period were allowed that CCP couldn't be arsed to change it when the time elapsed. From a developer point of view this is more a quick and dirty way to implement this rather than trying to screw the in-game economy. They have to make some major changes to the database to implement different skins for every ship as to not get different iterations for every ship clogging up the db. (have you seen the static data dump, it's a mess!) So if anything this should be a "don't release this ** until it is completely functional" thread More likely CCP would state something to the effect that the "technical barriers" were too difficult and so they would keep it a straight Aurum for ship transaction completely circumventing the Eve economy. That's why the community is rather up in arms about it. It's unfortunate that you can't see the back pedaling and double speak for what it is rather than what CCP tells you it is not. I, like most people, just don't have that much faith in corporations....for good reason. So let me play devil's advocate here, instead of people buying plex and paying YOU for that ship, they pay CCP for that ship, what entitles you to that money over CCP? Is it perfect? hell no, is it fair? no, it certainly isn't. My 2 ct: ships get more expensive in eve as the indy tries to make ends meat. BUT with newbs buying big shiny ships for isk, loot will be bigger as well. Not to mention the new blood this will attract, because let's face it, it will seriously take the learning curve down, newer players will find it easier to get into eve. In the end though, let's wait and see what happens, no need to *** and moan before anything is truly screwed up. ^^Dumb people who failed highschool economics class shouldn't be allowed to post in threads about economics.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:55:00 - [567] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 15/06/2011 00:59:46 Edited by: Mr Kidd on 15/06/2011 00:58:15 Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze From a developer point of view this is more a quick and dirty way to implement this rather than trying to screw the in-game economy. They have to make some major changes to the database to implement different skins for every ship as to not get different iterations for every ship clogging up the db. (have you seen the static data dump, it's a mess!) So if anything this should be a "don't release this ** until it is completely functional" thread What exactly are they testing? I don't think you and I are qualified to know what exactly they're testing. They could be testing functionality just as much as they're wanting to test profitability of the new MT profit model or the community's complacency for direct cash for magic stuff. It certainly would be easier on CCP if you gave them cash and they gave you magic stuff without having to develop the mechanics to require a ship from the Eve economy with which to complete the transaction. If you think about it, what do they have to develop? They already have a working model for such transactions. It's called the LP store. So, all this "technical barrier" BS is rather moot from my perspective. Quote: So let me play devil's advocate here, instead of people buying plex and paying YOU for that ship, they pay CCP for that ship, what entitles you to that money over CCP? Is it perfect? hell no, is it fair? no, it certainly isn't. My 2 ct: ships get more expensive in eve as the indy tries to make ends meat. BUT with newbs buying big shiny ships for isk, loot will be bigger as well. Not to mention the new blood this will attract, because let's face it, it will seriously take the learning curve down, newer players will find it easier to get into eve. In the end though, let's wait and see what happens, no need to *** and moan before anything is truly screwed up. You lack a certain understanding of what is going on here. CCP is going to get their pound of flesh if the Isukone Scorpion requires a ship + aurum or only aurum. If it's the latter (only aurum) then it undercuts those individuals in game working hard to produce scorpions and sell them for a profit. It also undercuts the price of minerals since eventually that Isukone Scorpion would revert to its natural state of composite minerals. You can think of a straight aurum for magic stuff trade as a big FU to the rest of the community.
Alivyre Kanjus	Posted - 2011.06.15 00:57:00 - [568] Intensely stupid and grievous error on the part of CCP. Do not implement microtransactions for ships. Didn't we make this ABUNDANTLY CLEAR?
Nadia Ruze	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:07:00 - [569] Seems to me that it's not so much the devs that caused this problem, but our own CSM's. Maybe we should take the electing of these representatives a little more serious, and not just assume that they are useless and just a media-gambit. Course, maybe the playerbase likes having meta-gaming nulsec alliances, who essentially force industry players to work at their beck and call (or hire out RMT chinese to do the work for them), representing what makes EvE.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:08:00 - [570] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 15/06/2011 01:12:14 Ahh, I see the debate still rages... and even got some Dev clarification. Looks like they decided to shelve things until later (unless I missed something, I haven't truthfully had time to catch up again). That's fine with me, although they could have done a number of other things. 1: They could have ensured that the Ishukone Scorp refines for exactly the same amount of minerals as a normal Scorp, and the insurance payout is exactly the same. 2: They could have made the ship available only in a few select Ishukone stations. 3: They could have made sure that it was far more expensive to buy the ship for AURUM and reprocess it than it would be to simply buy the minerals off of the market (or rather to buy PLEX>Sell for ISK>Buy minerals. With these simple steps they could have ensured that the test wasn't abused, as to do so would be expensive and offer no in-game advantage what so ever. Still, Scorp sellers "might" have lost a few sales, and part of the community would still feel that their trust had been somehow violated, so it's just as well that it's not going to happen. I think it's time to relax a bit. You've let your opinion be known, and it was acknowledged. Edit: Yes, I've heard the arguments that it would "break" the chain of supply and demand in EVE. My point is that with those steps above the only people that would actually buy the ships are people looking for a novelty item, there would be no incentive at all to start trying to milk it into something that it was not meant to be. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Zeta Kalin Large Rodent Hunters	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:14:00 - [571] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel In this first version of the store, we don't yet have support for BPCs. Specifically, we can't tell the BPC how many runs it has on it. So we can't use that as a way to sell the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship. Right now our plan is to temporarily sell whole ships until this fall when we will switch to requiring a normal Scorpion as part of the price. BPCs would have worked too, if we could support that. The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders. CSM being useless non shocker, especially with such a ******ed chair. It seems CCP really liked the World of Tank business model, it may work, if they go the whole way and drop the subscription. In the meantime I'm out, because the discourse on RMT just reached stratospheric level of hypocrisy, and I want nothing to do with a company obviously thinking his customer base is too stupid to see it. I still can't believe how fast it went from "vanity items only" to outright selling ships, what greed does to people...
Acac Sunflyier Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:20:00 - [572] I HAVE A SUGGESTION! Why not just sell paintjobs? Like you buy a token from Aur for the Aur and then you can apply it to your already existing ship?
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:21:00 - [573] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 15/06/2011 01:22:55 Originally by: Zeta Kalin Originally by: CCP Zinfandel In this first version of the store, we don't yet have support for BPCs. Specifically, we can't tell the BPC how many runs it has on it. So we can't use that as a way to sell the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship. Right now our plan is to temporarily sell whole ships until this fall when we will switch to requiring a normal Scorpion as part of the price. BPCs would have worked too, if we could support that. The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders. CSM being useless non shocker, especially with such a ******ed chair. It seems CCP really liked the World of Tank business model, it may work, if they go the whole way and drop the subscription. In the meantime I'm out, because the discourse on RMT just reached stratospheric level of hypocrisy, and I want nothing to do with a company obviously thinking his customer base is too stupid to see it. I still can't believe how fast it went from "vanity items only" to outright selling ships, what greed does to people... A ship identical to the one in game other than a snazzy paint job. The end result they are aiming towards is in effect you are paying for a paint job (when it's all up and running correctly). That's pretty much the definition of a vanity item. The only part that is somewhat uncool is that their test phase doesn't reflect the supply and demand system we all know and love. Even that has been dropped. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:23:00 - [574] Originally by: Erik CoolBreeze Why do I even bother, bloody forum tards. Get your head out of your ass and read the part where CCP mentions the 'short term sale' of A SINGLE SHIP. To be changed to ship exchange. Bloody panic monkeys. Yeah yeah yeah, you guys keep broadcasting that part but always forget to mention that that is the third version of the story after some major back-peddling on CCP's part. Nevermind that it's been linked and quoted numerous times.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:25:00 - [575] I guess I don't have a problem with it..if they are sacrificing a standard ship in the process for just a vanity item (ship skin). If the stats are different than the original that opens a whole new can of worms.
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:26:00 - [576] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 15/06/2011 01:22:55 Originally by: Zeta Kalin Originally by: CCP Zinfandel In this first version of the store, we don't yet have support for BPCs. Specifically, we can't tell the BPC how many runs it has on it. So we can't use that as a way to sell the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship. Right now our plan is to temporarily sell whole ships until this fall when we will switch to requiring a normal Scorpion as part of the price. BPCs would have worked too, if we could support that. The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders. CSM being useless non shocker, especially with such a ******ed chair. It seems CCP really liked the World of Tank business model, it may work, if they go the whole way and drop the subscription. In the meantime I'm out, because the discourse on RMT just reached stratospheric level of hypocrisy, and I want nothing to do with a company obviously thinking his customer base is too stupid to see it. I still can't believe how fast it went from "vanity items only" to outright selling ships, what greed does to people... A ship identical to the one in game other than a snazzy paint job. The end result they are aiming towards is in effect you are paying for a paint job (when it's all up and running correctly). That's pretty much the definition of a vanity item. The only part that is somewhat uncool is that their test phase doesn't reflect the supply and demand system we all know and love. Even that has been dropped. It would be a vanity item if it didn't give you the entire ship without requiring the Scorpion. ---
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:31:00 - [577] I'm no rocket surgeon, but surely a new mission could be used to bring a cosmetic ship to New Eden? Such a mission might require the Pilot to deliver a repackaged T1 Scorpion and x Aurum to an agent, and would then reward the Pilot with an Ishukone Watch Scorpion. The mission could be set up as the only one offered by some new agent in a random Ishukone station.
Ruby Khann	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:31:00 - [578] CCP, you have a very long list of things that you added then promised to change/improve later. You have a very short list of things you actually changed/improved. Why should players put faith in you this time? Why should players trust you when you've steadily broadened the scope of microtransactions, completely disregarding your own earlier statements?
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:33:00 - [579] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 15/06/2011 01:34:49 Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 15/06/2011 01:22:55 Originally by: Zeta Kalin Originally by: CCP Zinfandel In this first version of the store, we don't yet have support for BPCs. Specifically, we can't tell the BPC how many runs it has on it. So we can't use that as a way to sell the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship. Right now our plan is to temporarily sell whole ships until this fall when we will switch to requiring a normal Scorpion as part of the price. BPCs would have worked too, if we could support that. The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders. CSM being useless non shocker, especially with such a ******ed chair. It seems CCP really liked the World of Tank business model, it may work, if they go the whole way and drop the subscription. In the meantime I'm out, because the discourse on RMT just reached stratospheric level of hypocrisy, and I want nothing to do with a company obviously thinking his customer base is too stupid to see it. I still can't believe how fast it went from "vanity items only" to outright selling ships, what greed does to people... A ship identical to the one in game other than a snazzy paint job. The end result they are aiming towards is in effect you are paying for a paint job (when it's all up and running correctly). That's pretty much the definition of a vanity item. The only part that is somewhat uncool is that their test phase doesn't reflect the supply and demand system we all know and love. Even that has been dropped. It would be a vanity item if it didn't give you the entire ship without requiring the Scorpion. Which is exactly what I said without going through the whole tired story again. So yes, you are correct. Test = No Scorp required... so it messes with supply and demand (as I said). Final Version = AURUM + Scorp... a vanity item at that point as all you get for your AURUM investment is a paint job. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Mike TheMiner	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:34:00 - [580] Players have always been able to buy ships for $ via Plex, and before that GTC. /closethread
Ruby Khann	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:34:00 - [581] Originally by: Mike TheMiner Players have always been able to buy ships for $ via Plex, and before that GTC. /closethread Those ships/minerals don't come out of thin air.
mkint	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:35:00 - [582] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 15/06/2011 01:12:14 Ahh, I see the debate still rages... and even got some Dev clarification. Looks like they decided to shelve things until later (unless I missed something, I haven't truthfully had time to catch up again). A really really big problem is that CCP hasn't committed to to shelving it. In fact the dev responses were a pretty clear "we're doing this whether you like it or not, pleasedontunsubscribe." They said "oh yeah I was wrong when I said we're doing it for 3-4 months, what's really happening is we're doing it indefinitely even though the CSM said even 1-2 weeks is too much." Read very carefully. People assume the best when corporate backpedaling is clearly worded to indicate the worst.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:36:00 - [583] Originally by: Thoraemond I'm no rocket surgeon, but surely a new mission could be used to bring a cosmetic ship to New Eden? Such a mission might require the Pilot to deliver a repackaged T1 Scorpion and x Aurum to an agent, and would then reward the Pilot with an Ishukone Watch Scorpion. The mission could be set up as the only one offered by some new agent in a random Ishukone station. One of many ways it might be done in a satisfactory manner, and a good one at that. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:38:00 - [584] Originally by: Thoraemond I'm no rocket surgeon, but surely a new mission could be used to bring a cosmetic ship to New Eden? Such a mission might require the Pilot to deliver a repackaged T1 Scorpion and x Aurum to an agent, and would then reward the Pilot with an Ishukone Watch Scorpion. The mission could be set up as the only one offered by some new agent in a random Ishukone station. Great idea but I don't think it'll tie in with their cash shop window. Did I mention it's a great idea though?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:39:00 - [585] Edited by: Tippia on 15/06/2011 01:40:11 Originally by: Mike TheMiner Players have always been able to buy ships for $ via Plex, and before that GTC. See if you can spot the difference between the following statements: Players can acquire ships by trading a PLEX with another player for ISK, and then trading that ISK with another player for a ship. Players can acquire ships by converting PLEX into AUR and converting AUR into a ship. It is the difference between those two that is the problem hereà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:40:00 - [586] Originally by: mkint Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 15/06/2011 01:12:14 Ahh, I see the debate still rages... and even got some Dev clarification. Looks like they decided to shelve things until later (unless I missed something, I haven't truthfully had time to catch up again). A really really big problem is that CCP hasn't committed to to shelving it. In fact the dev responses were a pretty clear "we're doing this whether you like it or not, pleasedontunsubscribe." They said "oh yeah I was wrong when I said we're doing it for 3-4 months, what's really happening is we're doing it indefinitely even though the CSM said even 1-2 weeks is too much." Read very carefully. People assume the best when corporate backpedaling is clearly worded to indicate the worst. Thanks for bringing me up to speed mkint, but if that is true what does this part mean: Quote: What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. Sounds like they are going to work out the details on the final procedure for buying them and then look at when they can proceed. Was there something else I missed? ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:43:00 - [587] Originally by: Norrin Ellis I admit that I haven't pored over this thread with the diligence of the truly hardcore EVE players, but I did read the dev's response, and it seems to me that the question was put to our democratically-elected CSM, who gave the green light to go ahead. I certainly hope, if everyone is as miffed as they seem to be (possibly rightfully, as I'm no expert), that consequences will be delivered during the next election. See this is my biggest issue. according to the CSM members that posted here they never said such a thing. Which bothers me.
Zeta Kalin Large Rodent Hunters	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:46:00 - [588] Originally by: Ranger 1 Test = No Scorp required... so it messes with supply and demand (as I said). Final Version = AURUM + Scorp... a vanity item at that point as all you get for your AURUM investment is a paint job. LOL "Final Version"... This is CCP we are talking about. Have you seen the final version of faction warfare? Of planetary interaction? Have you seen a final version of anything in this game? Stuff stays in whatever release state it was for years, without being reviewed. If it goes out without requiring a ship, it will stay like that for months if not years. This is how CCP works and you should know it by now. Anyway the ability to pop ships magically in non factory stations, possibly even in a station where you are stranded and don't even have access to market because you lost it, is completely unacceptable, even if it lasted only for a mythical test period.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:47:00 - [589] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Norrin Ellis I admit that I haven't pored over this thread with the diligence of the truly hardcore EVE players, but I did read the dev's response, and it seems to me that the question was put to our democratically-elected CSM, who gave the green light to go ahead. I certainly hope, if everyone is as miffed as they seem to be (possibly rightfully, as I'm no expert), that consequences will be delivered during the next election. See this is my biggest issue. according to the CSM members that posted here they never said such a thing. Which bothers me. Yeah, there seem to be a few different time frames being thrown around for the length of the test. Could be a simple miscommunication during the CSM meetings (if so the meeting minutes should reveal the disconnect). Or it could be that the Dev responses in this thread have been a bit hurried in the midst of the current crisis (I use that term loosely) and they have mis-communicated here. I doubt there has been any true intention to mislead anyone. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:49:00 - [590] Edited by: Rykuss on 15/06/2011 01:50:36 Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: mkint Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 15/06/2011 01:12:14 Ahh, I see the debate still rages... and even got some Dev clarification. Looks like they decided to shelve things until later (unless I missed something, I haven't truthfully had time to catch up again). A really really big problem is that CCP hasn't committed to to shelving it. In fact the dev responses were a pretty clear "we're doing this whether you like it or not, pleasedontunsubscribe." They said "oh yeah I was wrong when I said we're doing it for 3-4 months, what's really happening is we're doing it indefinitely even though the CSM said even 1-2 weeks is too much." Read very carefully. People assume the best when corporate backpedaling is clearly worded to indicate the worst. Thanks for bringing me up to speed mkint, but if that is true what does this part mean: Quote: What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. Sounds like they are going to work out the details on the final procedure for buying them and then look at when they can proceed. Was there something else I missed? Let's hope he keeps his word. Forgive me if I don't hold my breathe while we wait though.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:52:00 - [591] Originally by: Zeta Kalin Originally by: Ranger 1 Test = No Scorp required... so it messes with supply and demand (as I said). Final Version = AURUM + Scorp... a vanity item at that point as all you get for your AURUM investment is a paint job. LOL "Final Version"... This is CCP we are talking about. Have you seen the final version of faction warfare? Of planetary interaction? Have you seen a final version of anything in this game? Stuff stays in whatever release state it was for years, without being reviewed. If it goes out without requiring a ship, it will stay like that for months if not years. This is how CCP works and you should know it by now. Anyway the ability to pop ships magically in non factory stations, possibly even in a station where you are stranded and don't even have access to market because you lost it, is completely unacceptable, even if it lasted only for a mythical test period. Actually I'm pretty happy with the current state of most things, although I won't deny there is a long list of things to be revisited (a list growing steadily shorter, by the way). Since we have no details on where you would have been able to purchase/pick up these ships your point is pretty much based on assumption. Not to mention the fact that it looks like it won't happen at all now. In short, the rage needs to burn itself out now. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Vandrion Gallente The Collective B O R G	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:54:00 - [592] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 15/06/2011 01:40:11 Originally by: Mike TheMiner Players have always been able to buy ships for $ via Plex, and before that GTC. See if you can spot the difference between the following statements: Players can acquire ships by trading a PLEX with another player for ISK, and then trading that ISK with another player for a ship. Players can acquire ships by converting PLEX into AUR and converting AUR into a ship. It is the difference between those two that is the problem hereà The world is coming to an END. Tippia and I are starting to see eye to eye... This is scary.... To elaborate on Tippia's point--- Isk doesn't create itself. A player generates the isk through time and effort at some point. Even if you sold a Plex for Isk some player somewhere else had to earn that Isk. This is one of the missing components in MT period not just the Ishukone Scorp. Any time you can flat out circumvent the in game economy with a Visa there is a problem.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:55:00 - [593] Originally by: Ranger 1 Actually I'm pretty happy with the current state of most things, although I won't deny there is a long list of things to be revisited (a list growing steadily shorter, by the way). Since we have no details on where you would have been able to purchase/pick up these ships your point is pretty much based on assumption. Not to mention the fact that it looks like it won't happen at all now. In short, the rage needs to burn itself out now. Just say No to the 'test'. POS corp hangers......that's all I have to say....still waiting for that finished product.
Lucilla Giulia	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:58:00 - [594] Oh please y testing it with a scorpion? wouldn't be better with a new implant? one that modifies your hairstyle and make you train skills faster? like using 1/10th of the time? I don't honestly think CSM matters at all, they could have said whatever but is not them running the game, they know it, CCP knows it and honestly we all should know by now, still given that's the case sayin "NO CCP that is utterly wrong and NO a test won't change it" would have been so difficult? The point imo is that , even if just for a test, it will (again) break the meaning of eve economy: Player: "ok day one of testing, uhm i have 1k dollars i won with lotto, let's buy as many fancy scorpions as i can!!" CCP: "o sh.t, thing isn't working as we hoped it would work(or maybe it is?), what now?ok we will remove the ships" P: "wtf i spent money on it!!" CCP: "he's right we can't simply remove it, and we can't reimburse him his $" P: "well gimme something else to compensate then!" CCP: "uhm this will 'cause even more issue, nah ok Player keep your ships, we'r goin to introduce new ships/mods for $ so everything will settle down" etc..
Donald Herbert Hayes	Posted - 2011.06.15 01:58:00 - [595] Originally by: Illwill Bill Brb, unsubbing. Done myself, off to tanks, the better combat item for RL money game.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 02:02:00 - [596] Originally by: Mr Kidd Originally by: Ranger 1 Actually I'm pretty happy with the current state of most things, although I won't deny there is a long list of things to be revisited (a list growing steadily shorter, by the way). Since we have no details on where you would have been able to purchase/pick up these ships your point is pretty much based on assumption. Not to mention the fact that it looks like it won't happen at all now. In short, the rage needs to burn itself out now. Just say No to the 'test'. POS corp hangers......that's all I have to say....still waiting for that finished product. I think the "Just say NO" part has been done quite thoroughly, and gotten the desired result. I apologize for getting a bit short with people on matters like this. I get irritated when people over react (not directing this at you). This community has a really bad habit of taking a mildly controversial decision and instead of maturely saying "Hey wait, I have a concern", they launch into a firestorm of over reaction, rudeness, and false accusation. Believe it or not, it's not necessary and only serves to **** other people off to no good result. Rage on both sides ensues and often any rational point being made is lost in the sewage. Then again, welcome to the internet I suppose. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
I Love Boobies Amarr	Posted - 2011.06.15 02:06:00 - [597] Bump!
Canine Fiend Minmatar Hidden Refuge WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2011.06.15 02:09:00 - [598] I'd rather CCP just wait until they can do trade ins. I generally don't take a stance on anything, but this bothers me for some reason. If the regular scorp isn't being taken out of the game you're getting an IG item for money without swapping it for anything.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.15 02:10:00 - [599] Originally by: Ranger 1 Since we have no details on where you would have been able to purchase/pick up these ships your point is pretty much based on assumption. Not to mention the fact that it looks like it won't happen at all now. All indications are, and excuse me for not bothering to dig up the refrences, the Ignoble Exchange will be available so long as you are docked, anywhere. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.06.15 02:11:00 - [600] Originally by: Ranger 1 This community has a really bad habit of taking a mildly controversial decision and instead of maturely saying "Hey wait, I have a concern", they launch into a firestorm of over reaction, rudeness, and false accusation. Its not mildly controversial, its massively damaging to the player run economy and logistics. People NEED to kick up a stink because otherwise CCP do not listen and just go ahead and royally **** up the game. Just because you do not understand the implications and palm them off as having a mild influence does not mean we should not be concerned. It just shows you have no concept of what is at stake. You would probably do well to just back out of the discussion until you understand what you are talking about since all you are doing is antagonising those intelligent enough to have a legitimate concern. ~~~
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.06.15 02:12:00 - [601] Originally by: Ranger 1 In short, the rage needs to burn itself out now. You're right and it has been circumvented, for now. CCP and the CSM say they thought the small window would be acceptable and that they were always in agreement that the economy belonged to the players, I'll have to accept that as that's the story they're sticking to. I'm done with it now and if it should launch as originally planned anyway, then the only sensible thing for me to do would be to quietly leave.
Aquana Abyss	Posted - 2011.06.15 02:16:00 - [602] Just to clarify my rage posted earlier... I was rather unhappy with the CSM and CCP for potentially magically producing ships from the Aurum hat. CCP Zinfandel has posted a sensible few posts saying they will hold off/delay introduction of the item until August (I'm guessing/hoping by then team Stonehenge will have the trade sorted correctly). He probably feels quite burned on this, but so he should if the original posts quote is accurate because it was a very naive statement. As far as the planned skins go I think they are fine so long as they are just that: skins (vanity items). I think it'd make the game more fun to have more variations (looks-wise) of the same ships. It has potential to become an interesting feature - especially if it ever became player driven it could become the "manufacturers own stamp" on building stuff they have been wanting for years. As far as the CSM go they have done themselves absolutely no credit in my mind. Vile Rat is a prat and Seleene (who I voted for) made some terrible remark about making the trade for BPOs so literally then every scorpion that player has (what if he just converts and sells them constantly?) will look that way - when every scorpion after enough time becomes a vanity one the game detach a lot of its original aesthetic. I'm abstaining from every future CSM vote because CCP now think some attention seeking mungos who have all their alliance mates vote for them somehow represents all of us players and they see fit to just do what they want anyway saying "we consulted the CSM". The old way of rage feedback provoked response from CCP seems to actually work much better than the CSM ever can.
Vandrion Gallente The Collective B O R G	Posted - 2011.06.15 02:19:00 - [603] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Mr Kidd Originally by: Ranger 1 Actually I'm pretty happy with the current state of most things, although I won't deny there is a long list of things to be revisited (a list growing steadily shorter, by the way). Since we have no details on where you would have been able to purchase/pick up these ships your point is pretty much based on assumption. Not to mention the fact that it looks like it won't happen at all now. In short, the rage needs to burn itself out now. Just say No to the 'test'. POS corp hangers......that's all I have to say....still waiting for that finished product. I think the "Just say NO" part has been done quite thoroughly, and gotten the desired result. I apologize for getting a bit short with people on matters like this. I get irritated when people over react (not directing this at you). This community has a really bad habit of taking a mildly controversial decision and instead of maturely saying "Hey wait, I have a concern", they launch into a firestorm of over reaction, rudeness, and false accusation. Believe it or not, it's not necessary and only serves to **** other people off to no good result. Rage on both sides ensues and often any rational point being made is lost in the sewage. Then again, welcome to the internet I suppose. Ranger-- There are those of us that get irritated when people fail to react or don't see the larger picture. I posted a link to this thread in the Science and Indy forums to make sure people know what is happening. I did that very early in this threads history. People need to know what is happening right under their noses. Ever since CCP created the Official Feedback threads they have virtually stopped repling to the "Hey wait, I have a concern" posts. After the first few hours of a post they let whatever happens in the thread happen. Little if any replies. Then they remove the sticky and the thread slowly slides off the front page into forum purgatory. What is even more concerning is that while all the legitimate concerns (whether you agree with them or not) are left unanswered the Devs can been seen posting in threads about Sax (yes it was spelled this way) in stations and about how their very own PS3 is on the way. This is why alot of the most vocal people on the forums often yell the loudest. They have been ignored the most. By all means---Continue to create the firestorms. It worked!
Evelgrivion Gunpoint Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.06.15 02:37:00 - [604] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 15/06/2011 02:47:07 Originally by: Vandrion Ranger-- There are those of us that get irritated when people fail to react or don't see the larger picture. I posted a link to this thread in the Science and Indy forums to make sure people know what is happening. I did that very early in this threads history. People need to know what is happening right under their noses. Ever since CCP created the Official Feedback threads they have virtually stopped repling to the "Hey wait, I have a concern" posts. After the first few hours of a post they let whatever happens in the thread happen. Little if any replies. Then they remove the sticky and the thread slowly slides off the front page into forum purgatory. What is even more concerning is that while all the legitimate concerns (whether you agree with them or not) are left unanswered the Devs can been seen posting in threads about Sax (yes it was spelled this way) in stations and about how their very own PS3 is on the way. This is why alot of the most vocal people on the forums often yell the loudest. They have been ignored the most. By all means---Continue to create the firestorms. It worked! The critical thing to realize is that the message has not, in fact, succeeded at anything more than postponing their ideas. Look at the past few months of developer blogs and developer posts. Behold the contradictions and uncertainties throughout all of them. CCP doesn't see where they're going with these changes and ideas; they're all signs that the company is in utter turmoil. This turmoil is exacerbated when some groups forge ahead with decisions like this faction scorpion fiasco. Even more damning, the CSM endorsements that were used as a mechanism to sell the changes were at best incredible misunderstandings. At worst, they were utter fabrications. CCP is forging ahead with ideas in a struggle to be seen as relevant in the MMO industry. They need to be big. They need to be successful. They need to be in the eyes of the media. They need to follow along with what everyone else is the industry does, lest they be left behind. This is what they feel, and it's all blatantly wrong - and CCP refuses to listen to the voices of contradiction, both outside and within the company. When all you have to back up the decisions of your executive and marketing departments is transparent spin, what incentive is there to talk to us in these threads? CCP's silence isn't indicative of them listening. They're shutting up because its a threat to their ensconced trenches of :awesome:.
I Love Boobies Amarr	Posted - 2011.06.15 02:44:00 - [605] Edited by: I Love Boobies on 15/06/2011 02:44:34 They indeed have plans on selling ships directly for Aurum or they wouldn't want to run a "test" to see how it works. I really don't have many objections for micro transactions as long as they give no clear cut advantage or effect the game in any way except for people to pimp themselves up a bit. I mean, after all, CCP is a business, and businesses need profits to continue to expand and prosper for the good of the business. When greediness clouds a company's ability to see how it will actually effect it's consumers, that's when the problems start. I don't know why CCP even CONSIDERED to do a direct ship for Aurum if they say that the player based economy is important to them. How could they not see it WOULD make the economy mess up by just producing ships out of thin air? The idea of a "test" should have never been brought up in the first place if they truly cared about the economy. These ships for Aurum will eventually lead to things that give people an advantage in game that can be purchased with Aurum. And worse things.
Smugest Sniper Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 02:57:00 - [606] What makes a limited ship offering such as this any worse then a special edition box set for shiny vanity items? Granted you can sell said ** or reprocess it for materials means the isk retail value of said shiny ship will increase later. What I think we really need in this thread is an overview setting that will automatically show people in vanity ships/clothing so we can primary them first. Then, we need a killboard engine that will calculate the isk/aurum/$ cost of killing these cancerous sores in our game and keep a recidivism list of the top purchasers of aurum items and vanity , so they may be hunted down and suicide ganked or murdered brutally in station by the glorious suicide gangs.( also note CCP, I want to be able to kill people who walk around in stations so they can't stay perma docked in jita to show off their forever.) If you want to break in game store, you chain gank camp every person marked for buying the stuff. This is eve, it is a video game, we are allowed to murder people for what ever reason we feel like killing them for in a virtual setting. If your really that dead set against the items store, make life hell for the user, cause *ing at CCP or our CSM bros that are trying hard to keep everyone, not just you whiny ***es on the forums, happy. All you people whining are forgetting, that EVE is not safe, high sec, will never be safe again, someone will fund a suicide operation to target aurum spending players until the aurum shop is gone or functioning in the manner the game was originally set out to be. I'm looking at you goons....
Foxgguy2001 Gallente Second Hand Lions	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:09:00 - [607] I am vehemently opposed to ships or items for aurums...I could see paintjobs or other decorative stuff in which case you still have to purchase a ship or item to get it painted, but spawning a ship for aurum is contrary to the VERY idea of a player driven economy. I do NOT support this product and/or service. Creator of Eve Wallpapers -
Q 5	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:10:00 - [608] HERE WE GO!!!! smugfest shows the same low brow mental thinking here infesting eve...(well I dont like it so it must die)...my god, how many times have you monkeys seen the same boom....so somebody wants to buy an item for themselves...woopie doo doo...mind your own ship!!!! fecal matter brain.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:13:00 - [609] Edited by: Tippia on 15/06/2011 03:15:32 Originally by: Smugest Sniper What makes a limited ship offering such as this any worse then a special edition box set for shiny vanity items? Granted you can sell said **** or reprocess it for materials means the isk retail value of said shiny ship will increase later. The fact that it isn't a limited ship offering and that it spawns minerals on demand without going through the normal mechanics to balance and regulate the flow of those minerals. Originally by: Q 5 HERE WE GO!!!! smugfest shows the same low brow mental thinking here infesting eve...(well I dont like it so it must die)...my god, how many times have you monkeys seen the same boom....so somebody wants to buy an item for themselves...woopie doo doo...mind your own ship!!!! fecal matter brain. So you haven't taken the time to actually read the thread and understand the problem at hand, I take it? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Kerrisone	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:14:00 - [610] Originally by: I Love Boobies Edited by: I Love Boobies on 15/06/2011 02:44:34 They indeed have plans on selling ships directly for Aurum or they wouldn't want to run a "test" to see how it works. I really don't have many objections for micro transactions as long as they give no clear cut advantage or effect the game in any way except for people to pimp themselves up a bit. I mean, after all, CCP is a business, and businesses need profits to continue to expand and prosper for the good of the business. When greediness clouds a company's ability to see how it will actually effect it's consumers, that's when the problems start. I don't know why CCP even CONSIDERED to do a direct ship for Aurum if they say that the player based economy is important to them. How could they not see it WOULD make the economy mess up by just producing ships out of thin air? The idea of a "test" should have never been brought up in the first place if they truly cared about the economy. These ships for Aurum will eventually lead to things that give people an advantage in game that can be purchased with Aurum. And worse things. I agree with this sentiment, I'd like to add that pointing to the CSM (in this case incorrectly) to justify a CCP decision is pretty lame. Either CCP thought this was a good idea or they didn't, trying to 'sell' it as the CSM said it was cool just shows me that they didn't want to take ownership of their own company and decisions. Even if the CSM did say 'okay go with it' CCP makes the decisions and caring about EVE this would not have been considered period. It really is that simple IF CCP as a company and those in charge cared about the game/player economy they wouldn't ever think of running the setup they obviously planned on running, making ships appear for $$, even briefly. It wouldn't have been an option as that clearly says they don't care 'because it is temporary'. So with the 'right' justification they compromise or abandon the things they say are important and they care about. If they then don't care for that brief time or one thing then how about a little longer, how about only a few things appear for money, etc? I'd like to add my thanks to those CSM members who bothered to respond and clear up the misinformation about the situation. I'd also like to say thanks to CCP for putting this off but it should never have been 'greenlit' as a test or because 'it is fun' when you couldn't do it right. I also have serious doubts, CCP just confirmed them with this plan, that MT will go beyond 'vanity only' in EVE to ruin it over time.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:19:00 - [611] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Ranger 1 This community has a really bad habit of taking a mildly controversial decision and instead of maturely saying "Hey wait, I have a concern", they launch into a firestorm of over reaction, rudeness, and false accusation. Its not mildly controversial, its massively damaging to the player run economy and logistics. People NEED to kick up a stink because otherwise CCP do not listen and just go ahead and royally ** up the game. Just because you do not understand the implications and palm them off as having a mild influence does not mean we should not be concerned. It just shows you have no concept of what is at stake. You would probably do well to just back out of the discussion until you understand what you are talking about since all you are doing is antagonising those intelligent enough to have a legitimate concern. Now you see, case in point. I don't fully agree with you and you tell me in no uncertain terms that I "don't fully understand" and "have no concept of what is at stake". I rather enjoy your posts, and usually am in fairly close alignment with your opinion, but do not make the mistake of lumping me in with your garden variety forum troll or knee jerk reactionist. I FULLY** understand the implications of what this would mean if it became the status quo, and would be standing right next to you on your soap box of righteous fury. I am also keeping firmly in mind the scope of what was actually proposed, and the very simple steps that could have (and likely would have) been taken to keep this from being more than a temporary ripple in the greater EVE economy. I choose not to immediately assume worst case scenario's because frankly, although they are just as guilty of the occasional mis-step as anyone else, CCP has NEVER given me a reason to doubt the soundness or sincerity of their over-riding goals. Everyone here knows, when they take the time to calmly think about it, that CCP has done some pretty cool things with this game... and are continuing to do so. There is absolutely no reason to rip them apart the way this forum often does (because hey, it's anonymous right). Just as in this case there is no reason for you to assume that because I only agree with you on this issue partially that I have no concept of what the reality of the situation would have been. I don't blindly jump to conclusions. I don't vent my rage without damn good justification. I don't usually butt heads with those people whose opinion I respect (including yourself) unless I've thought the issue through from as calm and realistic a point of view that I can manage. You'll have to forgive me if I don't shut up because we don't see eye to eye fully this time around. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:28:00 - [612] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 15/06/2011 03:29:39 Quote: The fact that it isn't a limited ship offering and that it spawns minerals on demand without going through the normal mechanics to balance and regulate the flow of those minerals. But it is a limited ship offering in that the manner it is (was) being offered is of limited duration. Again, if simple steps are taken... if minerals generated from reprocessing these ships would be exorbitantly expensive compared to obtaining them through conventional means... if the locations where these ships could be procured were limited to high sec area's where any volume of minerals you might need are already cheaply available... then you remove the INCENTIVE to abuse the offering. There would be absolutely no reason for people to shell out cold hard cash to buy minerals they could get far more cheaply through other means. There are other downsides, but that one would be very easy to avoid. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
VolatileOne	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:31:00 - [613] Originally by: Q 5 HERE WE GO!!!! smugfest shows the same low brow mental thinking here infesting eve...(well I dont like it so it must die)...my god, how many times have you monkeys seen the same boom....so somebody wants to buy an item for themselves...woopie doo doo...mind your own ship!!!! fecal matter brain. TIL low-brow mental thinking is conveying oppinion to an authority about a change they intend to enact. get your head out of your a**.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:32:00 - [614] Originally by: Ranger 1 There would be absolutely no reason for people to shell out cold hard cash to buy minerals they could get far more cheaply through other means. There are other downsides, but that one would be very easy to avoid. It doesn't really matter if there is no reason or incentive to do so ù it should simply not be possible because the mere possibility is inherently destructive to the market. They might as well remove the item dupe rules from the EULA. And yes, it would be insanely easy to avoid all this, but it sounds like they're dead set on not making life that easy. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Jandice Ymladris Caldari dark influence	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:36:00 - [615] I would rather see they wait with implementing this till they sort out the Aurshop so it can accept two kinds of currency per transaction( currently it can only accept one, hence aurum only) Once they sort it out, they can offer the shiny ship for aur + basic ship model. This would have been far better for their PR as well. Thing why people are so up in arms about is the bad communication from CCP& the fact CCP is pushing out a feature that isn't fully ready yet (the Aurshop, and it's inability to accept more then one currency per transaction) Also CCP has a trackrecord of temporary measures becoming mainstream, hence the uproar as well. -------------- Cleaning up wrecks others leave behind! Got to keep space clean!
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:36:00 - [616] They could add "infinite mineral compression, just give us your RL cash" as a 'feature' for Incarna, since they are so light on actual content for this patch. ~~~
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:42:00 - [617] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Ranger 1 There would be absolutely no reason for people to shell out cold hard cash to buy minerals they could get far more cheaply through other means. There are other downsides, but that one would be very easy to avoid. It doesn't really matter if there is no reason or incentive to do so ù it should simply not be possible because the mere possibility is inherently destructive to the market. They might as well remove the item dupe rules from the EULA. And yes, it would be insanely easy to avoid all this, but it sounds like they're dead set on not making life that easy. Now I agree with you in that the potential to be destructive is there (if someone were determined to waste large sums of cash foolishly, which is what it would take) if it were not monitored closely. However monitoring the process closely seems to be what the whole point of the exercise would have been. To observe the impact the introduction of an item of this nature would have. Granted it would be much more informative to do this when you had the actual delivery mechanism in place, so that you could closely evaluate that part of the process as well. Such is sometimes the nature of testing the waters. As for them being dead set on not taking proper precautions, I don't really get that from what I've seen so far. The description of what they had in mind was pretty skimpy on details of that nature. I think posts saying "if you are going to do this, you damn well better make sure you take these precautions" would have served the situation better... but what is done is done. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:48:00 - [618] Originally by: Lady Spank Edited by: Lady Spank on 15/06/2011 03:38:01 They could add "infinite mineral compression, just give us your RL cash" as a 'feature' for Incarna, since they are so light on actual content for this patch. EDIT: and as an example of "what could go wrong" you just need to look at what happened when PI was released and you could recycle components and people made multiple billions from it with no effort required. Mineral compression is a concern with anything really, but yes, this in particular. However considering the size of a scorp compared to the size of the minerals you would get from reprocessing, there are far more efficient ways (items to you can use) for that purpose. With PI, the mistake was just what I was talking about. Not taking into account the amount of minerals and their value obtain through reprocessing. It is a pretty rudimentary thing to adjust, and seems to be in balance with the current Scorp. All that needs be done is keep the numbers the same. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:51:00 - [619] Quote: They might as well remove the item dupe rules from the EULA. I'm sorry Tippia, I completely overlooked this in your post. Honestly I think you spoke a bit hastily. When you dupe something you aren't spending real money for the duped item. It defeats the point of duping something if you end up spending more cash to dupe it than if you obtained it through other means. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:56:00 - [620] Originally by: Ranger 1 Honestly I think you spoke a bit hastily. When you dupe something you aren't spending real money for the duped item. It defeats the point of duping something if you end up spending more cash to dupe it than if you obtained it through other means. Well, yes. It might be somewhat overstating the case, but it's not that far off. Duping is essentially just the creation of items that should not exist because they haven't been created through the normal creation mechanism. Rules against duping exist because the game makers generally have implemented some kinds of limitations on how much and/or how easily things can be generated, and they want to keep those balancing mechanisms intact. What I'm saying is basically that the non-trade-in AUR store serves the same essential purpose as a dupe exploit: it generates items that are not subject to the normal item creation balancing mechanisms. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:58:00 - [621] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Lady Spank Edited by: Lady Spank on 15/06/2011 03:38:01 They could add "infinite mineral compression, just give us your RL cash" as a 'feature' for Incarna, since they are so light on actual content for this patch. EDIT: and as an example of "what could go wrong" you just need to look at what happened when PI was released and you could recycle components and people made multiple billions from it with no effort required. Mineral compression is a concern with anything really, but yes, this in particular. However considering the size of a scorp compared to the size of the minerals you would get from reprocessing, there are far more efficient ways (items to you can use) for that purpose. With PI, the mistake was just what I was talking about. Not taking into account the amount of minerals and their value obtain through reprocessing. It is a pretty rudimentary thing to adjust, and seems to be in balance with the current Scorp. All that needs be done is keep the numbers the same. :sigh: mineral compression is a way of maximising the efficiency of logistics, primarily to move minerals into 0.0 If you have a super easy way of generating minerals in 0.0 without even bothering to load a jump freighter and cyno stuff about then it is horribly broken. You still do not seem to appreciate how broken this is. It is irrelevant how much real life money this easy source of minerals costs since as far as the eve economy is concerned it sees only one side of the transaction, the massive influx of raw materials (and it will be massive). ~~~
Jim Aaltra	Posted - 2011.06.15 04:08:00 - [622] The main issue for me with all of this is that not only is CCP diverting our sub money/resources to not one but two other games (Dust and vampwagon WOD), they are now bringing in this MT bull**** to try and milk us some more, and using us as guinea pigs for their corporate strategy. Way to repay loyalty dudes.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 04:09:00 - [623] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Lady Spank Edited by: Lady Spank on 15/06/2011 03:38:01 They could add "infinite mineral compression, just give us your RL cash" as a 'feature' for Incarna, since they are so light on actual content for this patch. EDIT: and as an example of "what could go wrong" you just need to look at what happened when PI was released and you could recycle components and people made multiple billions from it with no effort required. Mineral compression is a concern with anything really, but yes, this in particular. However considering the size of a scorp compared to the size of the minerals you would get from reprocessing, there are far more efficient ways (items to you can use) for that purpose. With PI, the mistake was just what I was talking about. Not taking into account the amount of minerals and their value obtain through reprocessing. It is a pretty rudimentary thing to adjust, and seems to be in balance with the current Scorp. All that needs be done is keep the numbers the same. :sigh: mineral compression is a way of maximising the efficiency of logistics, primarily to move minerals into 0.0 If you have a super easy way of generating minerals in 0.0 without even bothering to load a jump freighter and cyno stuff about then it is horribly broken. You still do not seem to appreciate how broken this is. It is irrelevant how much real life money this easy source of minerals costs since as far as the eve economy is concerned it sees only one side of the transaction, the massive influx of raw materials (and it will be massive). Yes, I've known and used mineral compression for some years now. Which is exactly why I said that the two simple precautions they would need to take if they did this would be: 1: Only make these Scorps available for pick up in a limited number of high sec area's. Specifically area's where minerals are readily available on the market in large quantities. (For flavor, these should obviously be Ishukone stations.) 2: Make sure that the minerals generated are identical to a normal Scorp, and that the AURUM price is quite a bit higher than if you went the normal route (even generating the ISK through PLEX sales) to obtain said minerals. There would simply be no advantage what so ever to reprocessing the ship. In fact, you would be pointedly shooting yourself in the foot if you did so. Sorry to repost these two points again. Due to the plethora of posts I've made in this thread I'm sure it was easy to miss. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Smugest Sniper Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 04:16:00 - [624] Originally by: Q 5 HERE WE GO!!!! smugfest shows the same low brow mental thinking here infesting eve...(well I dont like it so it must die)...my god, how many times have you monkeys seen the same boom....so somebody wants to buy an item for themselves...woopie doo doo...mind your own ship!!!! fecal matter brain. The only thing fun about eve from a pvp stand point is the rage, tears, and complete mental breakdown of the people you blow up who spend lots and lots of money/isk on their virtual entertainment. You probably cried and whined about the first Jihadswarm killings in high-sec too, my statement is almost identical to the initial ideas put forth from the origins of EVE "Killing and death is painful, and has repercussions, primarily on the person who died and now has lost everything they had." Do Not bring Trammel to EVE, and your rage feeds my hunger for the crying that will commence at Aurum kill seekers.
Nova Lux Gallente TalCorp Enterprises TalCorp United Federation	Posted - 2011.06.15 04:19:00 - [625] How could anyone at CCP think that popping ships into existence would be okay? I've been worried in the back of my mind since we saw the AUR store on Duality. Now... sighs, shakes head
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.15 04:23:00 - [626] Originally by: Ranger 1 stuff Ranger, you are dancing around the principles with details and making relativist arguments. "This isn't that, but this would not be so bad, cause this is that and that isn't this." - So what? It still goes against the principles. We could argue the minutia to the most insignificant thing, 1 micro organism for $0.01 and that's all they would ever ever do. It is still touching the butterfly wings of the player driven economy. Its bad enough the wings of Dust are dripping with the drool of salivating accountants before it even gets out of its shell; that we get opportunistic moral suasion as it relates to PLEX with advertisements and charity drives. The principles we defend are absolute, they are not relative; they can not be mitigated with endless discussions about insignificant details. Once they screw it up, it's screwed up for good. Many of us have been here for years and have invested our time, passions and emotions into Eve. I personally am no big part myself, I am insignificant to the whole, but I have enjoyed my part and wish to continue enjoying it. If it gets broken, all of our past experiences are cheapened, all of our future aspirations are minimalized. CCP and Eve will just become another can of New Classic Coke served up in a Virtually Spotless, Genuine Faux Crystal Dixie Cup. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Soldarius Caldari Northstar Cabal Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2011.06.15 04:27:00 - [627] Wait a sec, so am I right when I realize and state that one could rat for isk, buy PLEX, exchange PLEX for Aurum, and then generate ships from aurum, all from the safety of your anom-rich max-upgraded station-system deep in nul with absolutely no logistics required? No mining, no hauling, no manufacturing, nothing. Hell, you could melt it down and use the mins for something else if you want, or just sell them for isk, if the net is worthwhile. If that is the case, then CCP has completely and totally screwed the pooch. Scorpions are about to become worthless forever. I also see a potential for some serious abuse. Repent! For the end is near! Originally by: Krutoj You dont have a supercapital? buy PLEX trade it for ISK, buy supers. Just like any other mmo you can use your RL to pimp your character out (or tank for that matter).
Miranda Clarke	Posted - 2011.06.15 04:40:00 - [628] Everyone who plays this game has agreed to play under the rules and mechanics currently in use, and all rules and mechanics CCP sees fit to implement in the future. If at anytime we find that these rules and mechanics are no longer in line with what we as an individual want, then every player knows where the exit is, and is free to use it at any time. Nobody is going to stop you. You agreed to play the game by CCP's rules. If you don't want to play by those rules then gtfo.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.15 04:41:00 - [629] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Ranger 1 stuff Ranger, you are dancing around the principles with details and making relativist arguments. "This isn't that, but this would not be so bad, cause this is that and that isn't this." - So what? It still goes against the principles. We could argue the minutia to the most insignificant thing, 1 micro organism for $0.01 and that's all they would ever ever do. It is still touching the butterfly wings of the player driven economy. Its bad enough the wings of Dust are dripping with the drool of salivating accountants before it even gets out of its shell; that we get opportunistic moral suasion as it relates to PLEX with advertisements and charity drives. The principles we defend are absolute, they are not relative; they can not be mitigated with endless discussions about insignificant details. Once they screw it up, it's screwed up for good. Many of us have been here for years and have invested our time, passions and emotions into Eve. I personally am no big part myself, I am insignificant to the whole, but I have enjoyed my part and wish to continue enjoying it. If it gets broken, all of our past experiences are cheapened, all of our future aspirations are minimalized. CCP and Eve will just become another can of New Classic Coke served up in a Virtually Spotless, Genuine Faux Crystal Dixie Cup. Have I mentioned that the EVE community tends to over react/over dramatize much? CCP created the player driven economy that you so valiantly are defending, and have changed and improved it over time. They are well aware of it's strengths and limitations. They will also continue to make changes and improvements when they feel it is necessary. They are far more the guardians of it's integrity than you or I will ever be. Please keep that firmly in mind. If they wish to run a short term test that affects the economy, that is fully their right. Just as it is our right to suggest (or insist) that they take proper precautions if they do so. The way our economy works is going to change soon regardless, you might as well prepare yourself for that... as well as educate yourself on what impact those changes will actually have instead of listening to every post made by people not in full possession of the facts yet. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
handige harrie	Posted - 2011.06.15 04:42:00 - [630] So CCP, you had 2 choices with this feature, one in which you release unfinished code and one in which you choose to go for excellence and not release the feature, but polish it until it is flawless (a cash shop with item trade in options is not polished by any means, but pretty necessary imho). And if you really cared about your player market 100%, you didn't even had to make this decision. Low and behold which one you choose... Guess that commitment to excellence bullcrap you choose to preach didn't really went to well over with some investors wallets didn't it? Guess it's pretty clear that CSM6 are nothing more than wobbly heads, if you poke them they just agree, no matter the issue....
Qwyp	Posted - 2011.06.15 04:43:00 - [631] I don't see a problem with it I look forward to it, can't wait to paint all mine... I've got quit a bit of plexes ready for playing around with the aurum stuff. it's quite simple though, if you don't like it, leave. less is best anyhow Can't wait for incarna but the captain's quarters is just a tiny bit and I want the full walking in stations!!! renting bars and such :) and the aurum shop has the potential for all sorta customizations and ships and no telling what else.... love it
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 05:10:00 - [632] Originally by: Qwyp I don't see a problem with it Look closer. Or just read the thread. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Doc Fury Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.15 05:17:00 - [633] As I said in another thread. It was not ignorance, and it was no accident that exchanging gold for in-game items was finalized by CCP first, and exchanging in-game items plus gold is an afterthought.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 05:21:00 - [634] CCP you **ing suck. Fix this **.
Constantinus Maximus Paxian Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2011.06.15 05:22:00 - [635] lol just kinda amazing how out-of-touch CCP are. Oh well I guess when they make Eve an easy to maintain simple little game for kids they can relax instead of working so hard for nothing.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.15 05:29:00 - [636] Originally by: Ranger 1 Have I mentioned that the EVE community tends to over react/over dramatize much? It's Eve, of course people over react. If people in the real world could shoot each other in the face and pop out of there house all ready to go again, I'm sure the world would be a much more interesting place. Yes, it is their property, it is their right to do whatever they want with it, even break it. I am the customer, it is my right to demand the best value for my money. Should that balance be changed in a direction I find unfavorable, I will exercise additional rights as the customer. That is an action I prefer not to take, though will if need be. As for them being guardians, these most recent developments express otherwise, despite your implied and boastfully authoritative tone. The Real Space Initiative - V7
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 05:42:00 - [637] Originally by: Ranger 1 If they wish to run a short term test that affects the economy, that is fully their right. Just as it is our right to suggest (or insist) that they take proper precautions if they do so. The only testing that needs to be done live is figuring out the proper AUR price for their purposes, and that's not really testing, but rather dynamic balancing ù the idea that it shouldn't cost exactly one Scorp is a complete nonstarter and does not need any kind of testing. Whether the store works or not ù if it does, indeed, gobble up the right amount of AUR and items and deliver the correct good in return ù can be done on Sisi. So if they wish to run a short term test of TQ, it's because they've ***ed up somewhere along the line. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki*
Euphonus	Posted - 2011.06.15 05:57:00 - [638] So... CCP can't refund/reimburse losses that they admit occurred due to their own system glitching because "the looted items are in the economy", but they can create ships out of thin air if you give them money. Awesome.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.15 05:58:00 - [639] Ships aren't vanity items. Buying Ships for AUR is contrary to the promise that the Micro Transactions would only spawn vanity items. CCP you're a bunch of liars. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Fighter26 Orion's Fist	Posted - 2011.06.15 06:02:00 - [640] CCP, please listen- just require a normal scorp and the paint job is fine... but honestly I wish you could just buy a BPO of the paint job to put on your fav ship.
Constantinus Maximus Paxian Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2011.06.15 06:03:00 - [641] Originally by: Tres Farmer CCP you're a bunch of liars. They seem to be confirming this with unprecedented regularity recently.
Taisha Noran Concordia	Posted - 2011.06.15 06:25:00 - [642] Most player's will to play would be diminished if this takes effect. CCP has to know better. Hope they respond to all this, it seems ridiculous.
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2011.06.15 06:28:00 - [643] When accountants take over the company the business dies. It is especially true for niche game as Eve which was never supposed to bring in millions of subscribers. Now, accountants have found a small breach - vanity items and micro-transactions, and I'm afraid, very quickly they'll dig a huge tunnel where this small breach was and we'll see premium ships, improved ammo, premium modules, etc etc. Actually, they don't even have to invent any special new items, selling faction modules for AUR is just a small step away from selling "special" ships. And to those who say "this will never happen" I could recommend you to search the forums and finds threads where CCP guys have told us that there will never be any type of micro-transactions in Eve, and a choir of the faithful was reciting those words as the divine truth.
Constantinus Maximus Paxian Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2011.06.15 06:39:00 - [644] Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 15/06/2011 06:42:01 Originally by: Estephania When accountants take over the company the business dies. It is especially true for niche game as Eve which was never supposed to bring in millions of subscribers. Exactly. Setting a subscriber target for mass-appeal on a very strong niche product.... Just why... Why kill a niche product with dreams of mass-market. That article on WoW which showed how to make more money by making your game dumber has a lot to answer for. edit: That being said, EveOnline is a crappy business. $14.95/mo and SOOOO much work. Compare that to running a **** site or other subscription business with comparable churn rate, twice the revenue and near zero work.
Clair Bear Ursine Research and Production	Posted - 2011.06.15 06:45:00 - [645] Originally by: handige harrie And if you really cared about your player market 100%, you didn't even had to make this decision. Why care about the player driven market when you can care about how to graft teats to the players' wallets instead? And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question?
Rex Liberium	Posted - 2011.06.15 06:46:00 - [646] So when can I start popping Titans into existence with Aurum?? Why start with a scorpion? If you set the price right you could be raking it in ccp. Also the CSM must resign for their part in this. Instead of saying no, they accepted the unacceptable. Sometimes you should stand up and say no, or quit. Its about taking responsibility.
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:07:00 - [647] Just a few things: 1) Where was all this rage a week ago when we found out that Dust players are going to be making guns out of thin air with aurum, which then filter through our economy and effect our sovereignty? Or did it just get lost in the Ps3 rage? Either way, it seems CCP doesn't see the problem with creating something from nothing. 2) It's deplorable that the CSM let this get through. A two week test is acceptable? It's acceptable in the way that just a few seconds of raep is acceptable. On this issue the CSM failed to represent the community and failed to protect the sandbox. Shame. 3) It's getting pushed back to August, thank god. Hopefully they'll have the proper exchange mechanics worked out by then, but just in case, EVERYBODY BE READY TO RAGE AGAIN IN TWO MONTHS!
Fi1ippo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:12:00 - [648] The sheer amount of nerd rage in this thread is pretty epic. Do you honestly believe your green peace type "rally with me and quit" posts are going to stop CCP from continuing on a path that will make them more money? Do you think they will suddenly halt progress because they care soooo much about every one of you? The answer to both is no. They value you as a customer bec you've given them money....when you quit they won't give two ****s about you anymore. I wouldn't waste efforts on trying to stop them, it will be like standing in front of a speeding train with your arm forward screaming "halt!". You won't succeed. So quit, we all know you will be back in a few months anyway. Or continue to play as you see fit, since no one is making you buy anything using your money except the 15 dollar per month subscription fee. "The man behind the mask is a Maverik Letting off buck-ten shots for the hat trick." From the song Overtime (Maverik Lacrosse Commercial), by D.One. Life = Lax
Constantinus Maximus Paxian Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:12:00 - [649] Originally by: Mister Smithington 2) It's deplorable that the CSM let this get through. A two week test is acceptable? It's acceptable in the way that just a few seconds of raep is acceptable. On this issue the CSM failed to represent the community and failed to protect the sandbox. Shame. It seems more likely that CCP miss-represented the CSMs position.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:13:00 - [650] Originally by: Rex Liberium So when can I start popping Titans into existence with Aurum?? Why start with a scorpion? If you set the price right you could be raking it in ccp. Also the CSM must resign for their part in this. Instead of saying no, they accepted the unacceptable. Sometimes you should stand up and say no, or quit. Its about taking responsibility. The csm made me laugh with how they responded to the subject and the thread. Now I know why I didn't waste my time voting. Even if they were all for mt they are supposed to represent the players as a whole..and I think it is clear what the players want. People might say "oh that's just the forum trolls". No..it's someones opinion and for every one opinion on the forums there are a lot on the server who share this opinion and don't post in here. You can only be one of two opinions in this case..yes to mt or no to mt. Looking at the % of players against mt on this forum..I estimate 80-90%..it should be clear what the players want.
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:15:00 - [651] Originally by: Constantinus Maximus Originally by: Mister Smithington 2) It's deplorable that the CSM let this get through. A two week test is acceptable? It's acceptable in the way that just a few seconds of raep is acceptable. On this issue the CSM failed to represent the community and failed to protect the sandbox. Shame. It seems more likely that CCP miss-represented the CSMs position. Two CSM members in this very thread confirmed that they thought a week or two would do no damage and would be acceptable. I'll dig up the quotes if I have to.
Constantinus Maximus Paxian Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:23:00 - [652] Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 15/06/2011 07:23:38 Originally by: Ciar Meara Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. This is indeed "not remembering correctly" they DIDN'T want this but they could "live" with one week test...that's as big as a diplomatic PLEASE NO as you can get! Funny how poorly that reads. Didn't even pay attention to the CSM enough to remember that they had said anything. Then to say they could live with a week just reads as "Whatever dude, you're not listening, do whatever the **** you like to kill the game" CCP is clearly showing their stripes, it's over people.
Constantinus Maximus Paxian Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:25:00 - [653] Originally by: Mister Smithington Originally by: Constantinus Maximus Originally by: Mister Smithington 2) It's deplorable that the CSM let this get through. A two week test is acceptable? It's acceptable in the way that just a few seconds of raep is acceptable. On this issue the CSM failed to represent the community and failed to protect the sandbox. Shame. It seems more likely that CCP miss-represented the CSMs position. Two CSM members in this very thread confirmed that they thought a week or two would do no damage and would be acceptable. I'll dig up the quotes if I have to. I'm sure there are 1 or 2 who don't care. The statements show a broken process before what "he said she said" comes into it though.
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:32:00 - [654] Originally by: Fi1ippo The sheer amount of nerd rage in this thread is pretty epic. Do you honestly believe your green peace type "rally with me and quit" posts are going to stop CCP from continuing on a path that will make them more money? Do you think they will suddenly halt progress because they care soooo much about every one of you? The answer to both is no. They value you as a customer bec you've given them money....when you quit they won't give two ****s about you anymore. I wouldn't waste efforts on trying to stop them, it will be like standing in front of a speeding train with your arm forward screaming "halt!". You won't succeed. So quit, we all know you will be back in a few months anyway. Or continue to play as you see fit, since no one is making you buy anything using your money except the 15 dollar per month subscription fee. No doubt they are free to do with the game whatever they want. It is our right as customers to stop paying for the product if we don't like it. If they want to turn Eve into WoW in space or Everquest with lasers, gl with that.
Adrian Idaho	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:48:00 - [655] Let's give a condensed history for those that don't want to sift through this threadnaught, shall we? ref 1: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel [...]Right now our plan is to temporarily sell whole ships until this fall when we will switch to requiring a normal Scorpion as part of the price. [...] The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders.[...] ref 2: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel [...]And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes [...] ref 3: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel [...] I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. [...] At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship.
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:56:00 - [656] This: Originally by: mkint A really really big problem is that CCP hasn't committed to to shelving it. In fact the dev responses were a pretty clear "we're doing this whether you like it or not, pleasedontunsubscribe." They said "oh yeah I was wrong when I said we're doing it for 3-4 months, what's really happening is we're doing it indefinitely even though the CSM said even 1-2 weeks is too much." Read very carefully. People assume the best when corporate backpedaling is clearly worded to indicate the worst. That: Originally by: Vandrion [...] To elaborate on Tippia's point--- Isk doesn't create itself. A player generates the isk through time and effort at some point. Even if you sold a Plex for Isk some player somewhere else had to earn that Isk. This is one of the missing components in MT period not just the Ishukone Scorp. Any time you can flat out circumvent the in game economy with a Visa there is a problem. But Mostly: Originally by: Aquana Abyss [...] I'm abstaining from every future CSM vote because CCP now think some attention seeking mungos who have all their alliance mates vote for them somehow represents all of us players and they see fit to just do what they want anyway saying "we consulted the CSM". The old way of rage feedback provoked response from CCP seems to actually work much better than the CSM ever can. Even in this thread it looks obvious to me the CSM "middlemen" are screwing up the communication with/from CCP to the rest of us. They should pay for their holiday to Iceland like the rest of us in future. This so far has been the biggest failure of CCP but mostly the CSM. The CSM's I have seen in this thread either didn't know what they where talking about, had lousy arguments or couldn't be bothered to even inform what the thread was about. And it was about them (the CSM, in part at least)! Where is the Doctor in Economics CCP brag's about at every seminar to explain them that if you have magic in a real economy that is bad. What does he have to say about this! I would love to hear from CCP Dr.EyjoG about all of this, in fact, I think it is needed! ------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
Karontin Maysubile	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:56:00 - [657] I understand the desire to keep RM transactions from our game and would love to be rid of it forever, but I thought we already had MT for years. Isn't the current model $ > PLEX > isk? How is it different from $ > minerals > isk? Seems like more work to me, minerals being bigger and more varied.
Goddess Ishtar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:57:00 - [658] I wish you simpletons would quit whining about RMT. I long for the day I can use my wealth to crush poor people in Eve like I do irl.
Flesh Slurper Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 07:59:00 - [659] Edited by: Flesh Slurper on 15/06/2011 07:59:48 There is an easy fix: Don't sell a ship through the store as a finished item sell a BPC that looks like this: Shiny scorpion BPC Material requirements: 1 * scorpion Skill requirements: nothing Produces: 1 * shiny scorpion Wow.. In 10 seconds I just came up with a way to fix the AUR store, and not have the problems with the eve economy or mineral issues. The scorpion is consumed with creating the shiny variant via manufacturing at any station and you need no skills to make it happen. The AUR store doesn't need to support multiple currencies. Problem solved. So.. where do I collect royalties on my patented idea?
DeBingJos Minmatar Jukebox Warriors	Posted - 2011.06.15 08:00:00 - [660] Originally by: Ciar Meara Where is the Doctor in Economics CCP brag's about at every seminar to explain them that if you have magic in a real economy that is bad. What does he have to say about this! I would love to hear from CCP Dr.EyjoG about all of this, in fact, I think it is needed! I would love to see his response to this debacle.
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.06.15 08:03:00 - [661] Originally by: Karontin Maysubile I understand the desire to keep RM transactions from our game and would love to be rid of it forever, but I thought we already had MT for years. Isn't the current model $ > PLEX > isk? How is it different from $ > minerals > isk? Seems like more work to me, minerals being bigger and more varied. Its something from nothing. As stated over and over and over, the isk for selling a plex doesn't appear out of no where when you sell the plex. The minerals from reprocessing said IW scorp WILL be coming from no where, and in eve this WILL be abused. That's just how we are in this game, even if we hate the mechanic we will still abuse it to gain advantage ;) ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main!
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.06.15 08:06:00 - [662] Honestly this is a bunch of hoopla about nothing. There is no difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpion and a standard Scorpion. He has already said that they will wait til August and it will not be part of the initial offering, assuming waiting for the trade in transaction. The rest of this thread is a fever pitch whipped up by people. Its sheep following a wayward Shepherd. It is only a vanity item, has not greater function than anything else. The Player Economy is not 100% player base, never has been and probably never will be. If it was players would make the blueprints, the various sov upgrades etc....they don't. Get over it. CCPs approach seems much better than that used by games like DDO, Champions etc. Where things you buy can actually have a meaningful impact on the game. Learn to fight the important battles. Don't waste effort on meaningless things. Also the CSM is nothing, it has no power, it does not have to be consulted, most of them are elected by power blocks of sheep following shepherds of varying degrees. They are a poor cross section of the games players, and as such probably shouldn't be consulted on most decisions. They are much like the infamous SWG focus groups that led to the NGE....
Florestan Bronstein draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.06.15 08:08:00 - [663] Originally by: Flesh Slurper So.. where do I collect royalties on my patented idea? CCP already stated that they currently don't have the capability to sell BPCs through the MT store - maybe start by reading the thread before making suggestions...
Nea Star	Posted - 2011.06.15 08:19:00 - [664] Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel Originally by: WarptuSon As far as the Ishukone Issue Scorpion was concerned (which, incidentally, we found very pretty), CCP announced that they wouldn't be able to redeem an existing scorpion with a golden one initially due to technical constraints. CSM answered we'd rather CCP wait until that technical issue was fixed. CCP asked if it was acceptable if the offer was only available for a short time (ie, a couple of weeks), we answered that, while we'd rather CCP wait, it could be acceptable. This is what is so fundamentally wrong. CSM gave the green light to CCP to introduce a new scorp in game, made of thin air, w/o the need to trade the regular scorp for it! Which goes directly against a sandbox and player run economy principle, eve is based upon. Be it for only 3 months, weeks, or even minutes..it doesn't rly matter. That unprecedented action is a stomp against everything that makes EVE, EVE. Seems CCP thought little of this, and CSM even less. Honestly, why such a hurry to introduce that ship through broken mechanics, alienate the players and roll over company's integrity is beyond me. But from initially looking forward to incarna and eve's future, all that's left now is a bitter disappointment.
Flesh Slurper Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 08:25:00 - [665] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Originally by: Flesh Slurper So.. where do I collect royalties on my patented idea? CCP already stated that they currently don't have the capability to sell BPCs through the MT store - maybe start by reading the thread before making suggestions... Sure, but they made it sell an item for only AUR - a ship. Thus they could take the short time needed to make it sell some other random item straight for AUR - AKA BPC. Sure they don't understand legacy code in the LP store interface. But is that interface really all that complicated? I think not. Might as well do it right and scrap the old code and make a new one. It would take less time and be done right rather than cheeseballing it. This probably has less to do with the complexity of the coding and more to do with testing our tolerance to non-vanity items straight for AUR.
Rex Liberium	Posted - 2011.06.15 08:26:00 - [666] Originally by: Nea Star Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel Originally by: WarptuSon As far as the Ishukone Issue Scorpion was concerned (which, incidentally, we found very pretty), CCP announced that they wouldn't be able to redeem an existing scorpion with a golden one initially due to technical constraints. CSM answered we'd rather CCP wait until that technical issue was fixed. CCP asked if it was acceptable if the offer was only available for a short time (ie, a couple of weeks), we answered that, while we'd rather CCP wait, it could be acceptable. This is what is so fundamentally wrong. CSM gave the green light to CCP to introduce a new scorp in game, made of thin air, w/o the need to trade the regular scorp for it! Which goes directly against a sandbox and player run economy principle, eve is based upon. Be it for only 3 months, weeks, or even minutes..it doesn't rly matter. That unprecedented action is a stomp against everything that makes EVE, EVE. Seems CCP thought little of this, and CSM even less. Honestly, why such a hurry to introduce that ship through broken mechanics, alienate the players and roll over company's integrity is beyond me. But from initially looking forward to incarna and eve's future, all that's left now is a bitter disappointment. Indeed and thats why this thread is not only a we dont want non-vanity items for aurum thread, but also a GTFO CSM thread. Its al about principles. CSM should have said NO. You dont compromise on principles.
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.15 08:33:00 - [667] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Mars Theran Minerals are injected into the market out of nowhere everyday Minerals are injected every day through faucets that have limitations and restrictive balance mechanics applied to them that regulate the the flow. None of that exists here. Moreover, that injection is done through activities and professions that have been designed into the game and which have as their purpose to feed the market. All of that is being circumvented by this. Quote: The market drives this game? When? 24/7/365.25, ever since the game was launched. Everything anyone does in this game feeds into the market ù it affects and is affected by every last action taken. None of the things that people pursue as hobbies could be pursued in EVE without the market feeding that pursuit. Want to pursue a bigger ship? You grind for ISK, which you feed back into the market, where other players can respond to your demand by giving you that bigger ship, and in return, you have responded to their demand of ISK. Even with all RMT and bots and manipulation, it all happens within that system, and all of it is subject to the market forces that these mechanics generate and enforce. What's being added here is something that bypasses those regulation and balance mechanics; which isn't affected by them; but which still manipulates everything else on the most fundamental level. It is the EVE market version of a teleport-wallhack. Bots mine minerals and fill the markets to overflowing. This is apparently way ahead of you, and might come as news, but it's happening. Players have very little to do with it. You apparently don't recognize semi-obvious sorta sarcasm. I say that because I'm being sorta sarcastic about something that is actually sorta true, which makes me kinda cynical. The market in EVE is plagiarized, it's not real, and it never will be. Fake things do not drive anything; they just fill somebodies wallet. Actually, I don't grind for ISK. I see no point in it, as I am likely just wasting my time doing something that somebody else will undo later. If you think I'm going to spend the next 130 hours grinding just so I can put myself into a position where I can grind one Maelstrom wiothoput fittings every 4-6 hours, you're obviously not very aware of how I think or feel about wasting my time. I felt so poorly about grinding in EVE, I skipped it entirely, (aside from taking the time to discover what a waste of time it was), and bought some PLEX to bypass all the hassle. Feeling that was really just a waste of money, given that RL $$$ turned to ISK vanished very fast due to corrupt markets and Nullsec/Lowsec ISK funnels from Highsec Mission Runners/Carebears, as well as gankers, I then turned to the only profession in EVE worth pursuing: Character Generation. Unfortunately, even that costs RL $$$, if over a few months, and doesn't net much return beyond a little satisfaction at the end result. At least there is a little satisfaction. Nothing else I've done in EVE to date has provided any as an end result, and that includes Running a Corporation, moving to a C5 WH as one of the first pioneering Corps, Manufacturing T3's and Running Anom's, and developing an instinct for WH's and scanning that allows me to supernaturally detect when an exit is 9 WH's out and in what direction, even when 15 other people have scanned and come up with nothing. PS. @Mother Moon. Converting ISK to PLEX to AUR still takes RL $$$ out of the game, thus it is limited. PPS. @Tippia. You're including the Bots and RMT's in a system not intended or designed for them, and stating that they are a valid part of it. RMT/Bot is the correct version of the EVE version of the Teleport/Wallhack to which you are referring. Irrelevent now, but if they were, it's low quantity additions, and the market won't be affected because nobody will spend enough RL $$$ and/or the PLEX will run out.
Smagd Encina Technologies Namtz' aar K'in	Posted - 2011.06.15 08:37:00 - [668] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel [...]Right now our plan is to temporarily sell whole ships until this fall when we will switch to requiring a normal Scorpion as part of the price. [...] The CSM felt that a short period of time selling the whole ship would not meaningfully hurt the EVE economy or Scorpion ship builders.[...] I suppose that means that an Ishukone Scorpion would have to sell for more than 100 AUR, otherwise: 1. Buy PLEX for 600M ISK (inflation adjusted) 2. Split PLEX into 3500 AUR 3. Buy 35 Scorps 4. Recycle each into about 20M ISK worth of minerals (deflation adjusted) 5. Sell 700M ISK worth of minerals 6. 100M ISK profit, with a side order of mineral market crash, that would in fact hurt the EVE economy. But I'm sure the very good CCPs economists that made sure the PI introduction didn't have any problems like this are on top of this situation.
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.15 08:41:00 - [669] Edited by: Mars Theran on 15/06/2011 08:42:20 Sorry, I would have got back to this earlier, but I work for a living; so instead I came home and this thread had gained ~15 pages. Oh, and here's the kicker: Ask me if I care if the majority of players, RMT's, and botters suffer as a result of this, or even if I care if a bunch of snide, over-inflated, market spoofing windbags suffer for this. A: Not really. I might care if someone actually showed they were worth a damn, and proveds to me that this actually affected them negatively, while also proving that they are not a member of Lulzsec, not using bots or macros, not buying from RMT's, not participating in RMT activities, not scamming, not griefing, etc... If you fall into any of those categories you don't matter to me. @Smagd: Somebody mentioned earlier ~500 AUR
LordInvisible Gallente Nova Ardour	Posted - 2011.06.15 08:47:00 - [670] I tend to agree with majority that this sucks. Spawning an already made ship is worst idea ever! If they would only spawn BPC, thats OK. And i'm sure CCP isnt that stupid that they dont know how to spawn one run BPC, they are even doing this in LP store. LulzSec, i guess you need to do your job couple of more times.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "For me EvE wasn't that much fun, many ppl refer to it as a nicely designed database front-end and that
Adrian Idaho	Posted - 2011.06.15 09:02:00 - [671] Originally by: LordInvisible If they would only spawn BPC, thats OK. No, it's not, because it circumvents the buying and researching of a BPO. Besides, what ME and PE levels would this BPC have?
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.15 09:03:00 - [672] Originally by: El'Niaga I got no clue and I want to show to everyone what a moron I am El'Niaga, if you can't grasp the concept of Minerals or Ships out of thin air and their potential influence on the "balance" of power ingame you better stop showing your idiocy. This is not about a Scorp in another paintshop and that this costs RL monies. STFU you idiot. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.15 09:09:00 - [673] Originally by: Adrian Idaho Originally by: LordInvisible If they would only spawn BPC, thats OK. No, it's not, because it circumvents the buying and researching of a BPO. Besides, what ME and PE levels would this BPC have? I could accept a version where the BPC consumes a ship and produces the same ship, just with a different color/paintsheme. That's all CCP has to do to get paintshops into the game via the AUR-shop if the fricken thing can't consume stuff yet for exchange of AUR-items. A BPC with 1 run that only changes the paintshop of a ship should be pretty easy to come by.. ask Team Best Friends Forever how they would do it.. probably the only guys in Iceland worth their money. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Cosmoes Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 10:08:00 - [674] Sigh, I am really starting to hate CCP. This idea should have never got passed a manager who can see the bigger picture of eve. Let alone try and override the CSM to do it. The things I once valued in eve appear to be worth less than veldspar atm. I remember when CCP used to parody companies liked what they have become. ------------------- piccy
Imryn Xaran Caldari Coherent Light Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.15 10:12:00 - [675] I watched the segment on AT9 and think it might be good to clarify a few things: 1. The guy who was speaking was in marketing and not a game dev 2. He was very articulate when describing how great all the stuff they would be selling was, but seemed unsure when talking about the actual game mechanics of the purchase. I would not be surprised at all if the new ships required a standard ship as part of the purchase.
Jotaro Bene Q-Tech Incindenary Division	Posted - 2011.06.15 10:19:00 - [676] Originally by: Cosmoes Sigh, I am really starting to hate CCP. This idea should have never got passed a manager who can see the bigger picture of eve. Let alone try and override the CSM to do it. The things I once valued in eve appear to be worth less than veldspar atm. I remember when CCP used to parody companies liked what they have become. I think the managers are busy seeing the bigger picture of CCP. And as CCP is no longer only EVE...
Inturist FSB-ALFA RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.06.15 10:20:00 - [677] Edited by: Inturist on 15/06/2011 10:26:38 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. Are you really believe in that what you said ???? edit: OK , correct me if i'm wrong : player a) too lazy to hunt , do missions ect ect , but does have lot of rl $ , player b) hunting , mission whoring and have a lot of isks but do not want to spend his rl $ So , at the end - player a) buying that ship for $ , selling to player b) for isks . Sorry for bad spelling : / --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cpt Fina Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2011.06.15 10:21:00 - [678] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 15/06/2011 10:21:36 I really hope that the people complaining about this weren't silent when real money for ingame gametime-tradeable items were introduced. The difference I see is that this program (if extended) hurt the industrial community in a much more clearcut way, while cash for gametime-items probably hurt PvP players more. That program really stand out as the introduction of real life wealth as a potential determing factor of in-game power. Pimped out scorpions for cash feels like a second step in the same direction.
Rex Liberium	Posted - 2011.06.15 10:25:00 - [679] Originally by: Imryn Xaran I watched the segment on AT9 and think it might be good to clarify a few things: 1. The guy who was speaking was in marketing and not a game dev 2. He was very articulate when describing how great all the stuff they would be selling was, but seemed unsure when talking about the actual game mechanics of the purchase. I would not be surprised at all if the new ships required a standard ship as part of the purchase. I would be suprised if you had read the thread before posting, let alone the page. We would not be suprised if the vanity paint job would require a ship trade in. BUT... CCP deemed it necessary to implement the ignoble exchange before it had such functionality. So for a time due to this rush-out-of-the-gate-make-quick-monies mentallity there would be a ships-from-thin-air for aurum period. After much Rabble Rabble Rabble of the community CCP has said to hold back the ships untill august instead of going or a 1 week test period straight away. Funny fact: CCP wanted to make the ship available in august. So they arent holding back anything.
Adrian Idaho	Posted - 2011.06.15 10:31:00 - [680] Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 15/06/2011 10:21:36 I really hope that the people complaining about this weren't silent when real money for ingame gametime-tradeable items were introduced. The difference I see is that this program (if extended) hurt the industrial community in a much more clearcut way, while cash for gametime-items probably hurt PvP players more. That program really stand out as the introduction of real life wealth as a potential determing factor of in-game power. Pimped out scorpions for cash feels like a second step in the same direction. facepalm You have not understood what the issue is. You do not understand what the difference between selling PLEX and exchanging Aurum for a ship is. Go read the thread and come back when you've understood the key concepts here.
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.06.15 10:38:00 - [681] The CSMs seem to be more gullible sell outs than even I expected. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Di Mulle	Posted - 2011.06.15 10:49:00 - [682] Originally by: El'Niaga Get over it. Not going to. Get over it.
DeODokktor Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2011.06.15 10:50:00 - [683] Stoopid fekking forums and the stoopid fekking timers.... Here's a simple way to get skinning bpc's in game, WITHOUT needing any real programming effort. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1528470 Why no one at CCP or any CSM suggested this is beyond me.. The lure of $$$$$ for items blinds them to ideas. I shouldnt have to copy my fkn msg in clipboard to make sure that the timer eats it... lame crap. ----------- Never Forget the joy of finding a main to link to a scammer alt. N-y-p-h-u-r ! !
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.15 10:53:00 - [684] Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 15/06/2011 10:21:36 I really hope that the people complaining about this weren't silent when real money for ingame gametime-tradeable items were introduced. The difference I see is that this program (if extended) hurt the industrial community in a much more clearcut way, while cash for gametime-items probably hurt PvP players more. That program really stand out as the introduction of real life wealth as a potential determing factor of in-game power. Pimped out scorpions for cash feels like a second step in the same direction. I said when the PLEX-for-ISK thing was introduced that it was the thin end of the wedge, and I think that I've been proven right. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
notabene Minmatar Superior Eve Engineering	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:01:00 - [685] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 15/06/2011 10:21:36 I really hope that the people complaining about this weren't silent when real money for ingame gametime-tradeable items were introduced. The difference I see is that this program (if extended) hurt the industrial community in a much more clearcut way, while cash for gametime-items probably hurt PvP players more. That program really stand out as the introduction of real life wealth as a potential determing factor of in-game power. Pimped out scorpions for cash feels like a second step in the same direction. I said when the PLEX-for-ISK thing was introduced that it was the thin end of the wedge, and I think that I've been proven right. I'd go even further than that. When it was made legal to trade GTC's for ISK. That was the beginning. ________________________________________ And yes, there is a great need for a sarcasm font !
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:06:00 - [686] Tbh when GTCs were introduced and allowed someone to accumulate ISK without actually playing the game was the moment RL wealth started to crawl into the game. One thing is when someone has many accounts - he actually have to PLAY the game to milk ISK off those accounts. Next step - someone else had to play the game so that the rich guy could have the ISK. We are moving into direction when the same rich guy win't have even to pay someone to play the game to get expensive toys, CCP will simply spawn them for him out of thin air and that will be a totally different game.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:06:00 - [687] Originally by: notabene Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 15/06/2011 10:21:36 I really hope that the people complaining about this weren't silent when real money for ingame gametime-tradeable items were introduced. The difference I see is that this program (if extended) hurt the industrial community in a much more clearcut way, while cash for gametime-items probably hurt PvP players more. That program really stand out as the introduction of real life wealth as a potential determing factor of in-game power. Pimped out scorpions for cash feels like a second step in the same direction. I said when the PLEX-for-ISK thing was introduced that it was the thin end of the wedge, and I think that I've been proven right. I'd go even further than that. When it was made legal to trade GTC's for ISK. That was the beginning. Good point. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:09:00 - [688] Edited by: Ciar Meara on 15/06/2011 11:15:16 Originally by: Cosmoes Sigh, I am really starting to hate CCP. This idea should have never got passed a manager who can see the bigger picture of eve. Let alone try and override the CSM to do it. The things I once valued in eve appear to be worth less than veldspar atm. I remember when CCP used to parody companies liked what they have become. So the parody became reality, they actually did make SCORP-Now! How the mighty have fallen... Originally by: CCP Hammer (From 1 april 2008) Contingent upon a fully realized Product Delivery Potential, we have an additional range of Subscription 2.0 services in the pipeline which will further enhance the Customer Experience Process. These include InstaClone, Dock-O-Matic, T1 and T2 releases of BlueprintNow!, and many more. Subscription 2.0 û the future is TODAY! Perhaps CCP HAMMER could comment together with Dr. Eyjo Gudmundsson (CCP Dr.EyjoG) This being said, I have no issue with plexes for isk or even vanity items. But the line is clear, wel defined and not open to speculation. ------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
Adrian Idaho	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:26:00 - [689] Originally by: Estephania Tbh when GTCs were introduced and allowed someone to accumulate ISK without actually playing the game was the moment RL wealth started to crawl into the game. One thing is when someone has many accounts - he actually have to PLAY the game to milk ISK off those accounts. Next step - someone else had to play the game so that the rich guy could have the ISK. We are moving into direction when the same rich guy win't have even to pay someone to play the game to get expensive toys, CCP will simply spawn them for him out of thin air and that will be a totally different game. Oh no, that poor, hard-working, suppressed common-guy who is forced to make all those ISK for that evil, capitalist, rich exploiter-dude I'm sure he cries himself to sleep at night, after he has paid for his three accounts with PLEX, which allows him to play EVE although he hardly has money to pay for his Internet connection. And that exploiter-dude, how dare he log in after a long day's work in the office, buy himself a T2 fit Cane without having to grind for 2 hours? He should be ashamed! No, it didn't "start" with GTCs. Selling GTC/PLEX for ISK is not the same as converting Aurum to ships û those are very different principles, and they are completely independent of each other. If you do not understand this, then gtfo and don't come back until you do.
notabene Minmatar Superior Eve Engineering	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:30:00 - [690] Edited by: notabene on 15/06/2011 11:29:59 Originally by: Adrian Idaho Oh no, that poor, hard-working, suppressed common-guy who is forced to make all those ISK for that evil, capitalist, rich exploiter-dude I'm sure he cries himself to sleep at night, after he has paid for his three accounts with PLEX, which allows him to play EVE although he hardly has money to pay for his Internet connection. And that exploiter-dude, how dare he log in after a long day's work in the office, buy himself a T2 fit Cane without having to grind for 2 hours? He should be ashamed! No, it didn't "start" with GTCs. Selling GTC/PLEX for ISK is not the same as converting Aurum to ships û those are very different principles, and they are completely independent of each other. If you do not understand this, then gtfo and don't come back until you do. Fail at reading the posts and understanding them.
Trebor Daehdoow	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:33:00 - [691] In the hopes of clarifying matters, here is the timeline of what happened at the Summit. I drafted the minutes on the virtual goods session, and when this issue exploded I went back, reviewed the video recordings, and contacted Zinfandel to ask him to correct the record. During the session, Zinfandel presented the AUR-only Scorpion plan, which was to put it up for one week as a test, then take it down and reintroduce it later when the store could handle AUR+Scorpion -> Sparkle-Scorpion. CSM strongly advised waiting until the full store implementation. We did not like the AUR-only Sparkle-Scorpion idea, even for a week. In the evenings, after the formal sessions, we all go out to dinner and then to bars (much fun for me, since I don't drink), and there is lots of informal discussions. During this time, there apparently some conversations about the economic consequences of the 1-week sale, and some CSMs were apparently of the opinion that a 1-week sale of premium-priced Sparkle-Scorpions probably wouldn't hurt the industrialists who build regular Scorpions. But that is a separate issue from "this is a bad idea in the first place". And then, as has become clear, Zinfandel misremembered things, and a threadnaught was born. Best, Trebor
Cpt Fina Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:34:00 - [692] Originally by: Adrian Idaho Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 15/06/2011 10:21:36 I really hope that the people complaining about this weren't silent when real money for ingame gametime-tradeable items were introduced. The difference I see is that this program (if extended) hurt the industrial community in a much more clearcut way, while cash for gametime-items probably hurt PvP players more. That program really stand out as the introduction of real life wealth as a potential determing factor of in-game power. Pimped out scorpions for cash feels like a second step in the same direction. facepalm You have not understood what the issue is. You do not understand what the difference between selling PLEX and exchanging Aurum for a ship is. Go read the thread and come back when you've understood the key concepts here. As far as I understand it the issue is using RL wealth to generate in-game items and circumvent the convetional process of construction of in game items. Aside from the old guard who's always warned about using real life cash (outside of paying a subscription fee) to gain in game advantages we now have a crowd that is worried about the undermining of the production-process in eve. In its essence it's not much different from the CCP sanctioned isk for cash-program.
ArmyOfMe V0LTA VOLTA Corp	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:38:00 - [693] I guess the time to leave this game is fast approaching, considering i no longer care about stuff like this or the ddos attack yesterday
Ciar Meara Amarr Virtus Vindice	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:38:00 - [694] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow In the hopes of clarifying matters, here is the timeline of what happened at the Summit. I drafted the minutes on the virtual goods session, and when this issue exploded I went back, reviewed the video recordings, and contacted Zinfandel to ask him to correct the record. During the session, Zinfandel presented the AUR-only Scorpion plan, which was to put it up for one week as a test, then take it down and reintroduce it later when the store could handle AUR+Scorpion -> Sparkle-Scorpion. CSM strongly advised waiting until the full store implementation. We did not like the AUR-only Sparkle-Scorpion idea, even for a week. In the evenings, after the formal sessions, we all go out to dinner and then to bars (much fun for me, since I don't drink), and there is lots of informal discussions. During this time, there apparently some conversations about the economic consequences of the 1-week sale, and some CSMs were apparently of the opinion that a 1-week sale of premium-priced Sparkle-Scorpions probably wouldn't hurt the industrialists who build regular Scorpions. But that is a separate issue from "this is a bad idea in the first place". And then, as has become clear, Zinfandel misremembered things, and a threadnaught was born. Best, Trebor Wow, thats actually a clear and well thought out response wich makes things a little clearer at least from the CSM side. Apart from the low brow, useless or plain idiotic answers from some CSM's you Trebor Daehdoow, you upped my low esteem scale of the current CSM at least a nudge in the right direction. ------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
Evelgrivion Gunpoint Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:39:00 - [695] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 15/06/2011 11:39:28 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow In the hopes of clarifying matters, here is the timeline of what happened at the Summit. I drafted the minutes on the virtual goods session, and when this issue exploded I went back, reviewed the video recordings, and contacted Zinfandel to ask him to correct the record. During the session, Zinfandel presented the AUR-only Scorpion plan, which was to put it up for one week as a test, then take it down and reintroduce it later when the store could handle AUR+Scorpion -> Sparkle-Scorpion. CSM strongly advised waiting until the full store implementation. We did not like the AUR-only Sparkle-Scorpion idea, even for a week. In the evenings, after the formal sessions, we all go out to dinner and then to bars (much fun for me, since I don't drink), and there is lots of informal discussions. During this time, there apparently some conversations about the economic consequences of the 1-week sale, and some CSMs were apparently of the opinion that a 1-week sale of premium-priced Sparkle-Scorpions probably wouldn't hurt the industrialists who build regular Scorpions. But that is a separate issue from "this is a bad idea in the first place". And then, as has become clear, Zinfandel misremembered things, and a threadnaught was born. Best, Trebor Change that one sentence to "Zinfandel misremembered things, stated that CCP was going to implement re-skinned Scorpions for no cost beyond Aurum, and a threadnought was born" and you're good. As it stands, your post downplays the severity of the situation far, far too much.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:40:00 - [696] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow In the hopes of clarifying matters, here is the timeline of what happened at the Summit. I drafted the minutes on the virtual goods session, and when this issue exploded I went back, reviewed the video recordings, and contacted Zinfandel to ask him to correct the record. During the session, Zinfandel presented the AUR-only Scorpion plan, which was to put it up for one week as a test, then take it down and reintroduce it later when the store could handle AUR+Scorpion -> Sparkle-Scorpion. CSM strongly advised waiting until the full store implementation. We did not like the AUR-only Sparkle-Scorpion idea, even for a week. In the evenings, after the formal sessions, we all go out to dinner and then to bars (much fun for me, since I don't drink), and there is lots of informal discussions. During this time, there apparently some conversations about the economic consequences of the 1-week sale, and some CSMs were apparently of the opinion that a 1-week sale of premium-priced Sparkle-Scorpions probably wouldn't hurt the industrialists who build regular Scorpions. But that is a separate issue from "this is a bad idea in the first place". And then, as has become clear, Zinfandel misremembered things, and a threadnaught was born. Best, Trebor If that's how you experienced this props to you guys. And a pitiful shaming and naming to CCP Zinfandel and his team for even asking such a thing in the first place. Anything that's in the game and can be used to interfere with other players (read: ruin their day) or improves your ability for this is a NON-VANITY item. And those had been banned from Microtransactions some time ago. CCP Hammer promised. Do your homework and don't let this happen again. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Cpt Fina Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:41:00 - [697] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 15/06/2011 11:41:06 Originally by: notabene Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 15/06/2011 10:21:36 I really hope that the people complaining about this weren't silent when real money for ingame gametime-tradeable items were introduced. The difference I see is that this program (if extended) hurt the industrial community in a much more clearcut way, while cash for gametime-items probably hurt PvP players more. That program really stand out as the introduction of real life wealth as a potential determing factor of in-game power. Pimped out scorpions for cash feels like a second step in the same direction. I said when the PLEX-for-ISK thing was introduced that it was the thin end of the wedge, and I think that I've been proven right. I'd go even further than that. When it was made legal to trade GTC's for ISK. That was the beginning. I don't know the technicalities of GTC's and PLEX's but when it was introduced in its first form it was made clear (and the community understood it) that some players henceforth would get a very real in game advantages by paying extra cash. Alot of people were against it but many were totally fine with it. Anyone who was content at the time but are complaining now, when it has the potential to strike at another sector of the community should look up the defenition of the word hypocrite.
Apollo Gabriel Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:53:00 - [698] I really love Eve, and I am sad that CCP is going to wreck what I love in the game, loss. I don't want to quit, but perhaps eve is dead and I just need to accept it. *** Signature may appear without warning! *** Please do not feed the trolls, it builds dependency.
Lucilla Giulia	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:56:00 - [699] I honestly doubt that Zinfadel rememberd it wrong (btw isn't that the name of a california grape?) he was obviously enthusiast of the item store while speaking of it during AT9, so maybe is more like he left something slip out of the "sekret room"? and yes i know this is just speculation another speculation: has this maybe something to do with DUST being a PS3/Sony restricted game? CCP got something from Sony (that Microsoft didn't want to allow) in turn they asked something, considering DUST is gonna be f2p with MT..maybe that's part of the deal? on a side note CCP explained the reasons not to make DUST a pc game, "we want new players gettin involved in the franchise" was one of them, so yes they'r targeting players who like MT
Trebor Daehdoow	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:58:00 - [700] Originally by: Evelgrivion Change that one sentence to "Zinfandel misremembered things, stated that CCP was going to implement re-skinned Scorpions for no cost beyond Aurum, and a threadnought was born" and you're good. As it stands, your post downplays the severity of the situation far, far too much. My intent was not to either inflame the debate, or downplay the perceived seriousness of the issue, merely to state the facts as I understand them so that everyone can make an informed judgment.
Silas Cooper	Posted - 2011.06.15 12:17:00 - [701] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow In the hopes of clarifying matters, here is the timeline of what happened at the Summit. I drafted the minutes on the virtual goods session, and when this issue exploded I went back, reviewed the video recordings, and contacted Zinfandel to ask him to correct the record. During the session, Zinfandel presented the AUR-only Scorpion plan, which was to put it up for one week as a test, then take it down and reintroduce it later when the store could handle AUR+Scorpion -> Sparkle-Scorpion. CSM strongly advised waiting until the full store implementation. We did not like the AUR-only Sparkle-Scorpion idea, even for a week. In the evenings, after the formal sessions, we all go out to dinner and then to bars (much fun for me, since I don't drink), and there is lots of informal discussions. During this time, there apparently some conversations about the economic consequences of the 1-week sale, and some CSMs were apparently of the opinion that a 1-week sale of premium-priced Sparkle-Scorpions probably wouldn't hurt the industrialists who build regular Scorpions. But that is a separate issue from "this is a bad idea in the first place". And then, as has become clear, Zinfandel misremembered things, and a threadnaught was born. Best, Trebor I appreciate your explanation and it does make sense from your/CSM point of view. However, I'm not believing for one second that a marketing guy "remembered it wrong", but rather "did it anyway because it makes money". People who don't actually understand the product/company they're working for, whining, trying, annoying people to death till they get their way a little bit, and then a bit more... some more still and suddenly we have a full item mall! There's a special circle in hell for marketing folks, never strike a deal with them. -- You can't cure stupid.
Rex Liberium	Posted - 2011.06.15 12:26:00 - [702] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: Evelgrivion Change that one sentence to "Zinfandel misremembered things, stated that CCP was going to implement re-skinned Scorpions for no cost beyond Aurum, and a threadnought was born" and you're good. As it stands, your post downplays the severity of the situation far, far too much. My intent was not to either inflame the debate, or downplay the perceived seriousness of the issue, merely to state the facts as I understand them so that everyone can make an informed judgment. You should inflame or downplay the issue because you should represent us. You can not stay on the sidelines on an issue like aurum-for-ships. If CCP wants to implement it anyway they can go ahead, its their game. Advising against it is something else as saying NO. Also a CSM member came in here and stated that you(CSM) didnt like the idea but found a 1 week test-period on Tranquility acceptable.
chainedtofate Caldari Fleet of Doom RaVeN Federation	Posted - 2011.06.15 12:28:00 - [703] micro transactions are the devil. they will ruin an otherwise good game and if they become a reality both my subs will be canceled
Bon Hedus Amarr Voice of the Blood Raiders	Posted - 2011.06.15 12:31:00 - [704] I enjoy playing Eve. I have been playing Eve for a long time. Eve is not World of Tanks, Combat Arms or any other game that has MT in it. I quit playing SWG when the Devs stopped listening to their player base. I will probably leave Eve when CCP stops listening to their base and chooses to do MT for non-vanity items. I can barely live with MT for vanity items as I feel it breaks the immersion of the game/sandbox. Anytime you get something for zero work involved in the in-game economy breaks the economy. Even something minor as a vanity item. CCP, you need to listen to your player base on this one. Bon -------------------------------------- Heavy Lag Spike II belonging to EvE Cluster Node #0815 hits your Connection, wrecking your latency to 998ms
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.15 12:33:00 - [705] Originally by: Rex Liberium snap You should inflame or downplay the issue because you should represent us. You can not stay on the sidelines on an issue like aurum-for-ships. If CCP wants to implement it anyway they can go ahead, its their game. Advising against it is something else as saying NO. Not all in the CSM must be against MT for non-vanity items.. That said.. ..and if the CSM represents the playerbase somewhat realistic, there must be the odd moron between them too (just check some of the replies here that put plex for isk from other players on the same level as plex for ships-out-of-thin-air from CCP) Originally by: Rex Liberium Also a CSM member came in here and stated that you(CSM) didnt like the idea but found a 1 week test-period on Tranquility acceptable. snip Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Adrian Idaho	Posted - 2011.06.15 12:47:00 - [706] Edited by: Adrian Idaho on 15/06/2011 12:48:26 Originally by: Tres Farmer ..and if the CSM represents the playerbase somewhat realistic, there must be the odd moron between them too (just check some of the replies here that put plex for isk from other players on the same level as plex for ships-out-of-thin-air from CCP) good point! For example, we need someone who comes in here, asks what all the whining is for since you'll trade a hull for a sparkle hull, then proudly proclaims that it's more fun to troll than to actually read what all the fuss is about; Draco Llasa did this job very well in this thread. By the way, Trebor, I really like how you handle this in a level-headed, informative way. +1
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2011.06.15 13:01:00 - [707] Originally by: Adrian Idaho Originally by: Estephania Tbh when GTCs were introduced and allowed someone to accumulate ISK without actually playing the game was the moment RL wealth started to crawl into the game. One thing is when someone has many accounts - he actually have to PLAY the game to milk ISK off those accounts. Next step - someone else had to play the game so that the rich guy could have the ISK. We are moving into direction when the same rich guy win't have even to pay someone to play the game to get expensive toys, CCP will simply spawn them for him out of thin air and that will be a totally different game. Oh no, that poor, hard-working, suppressed common-guy who is forced to make all those ISK for that evil, capitalist, rich exploiter-dude I'm sure he cries himself to sleep at night, after he has paid for his three accounts with PLEX, which allows him to play EVE although he hardly has money to pay for his Internet connection. And that exploiter-dude, how dare he log in after a long day's work in the office, buy himself a T2 fit Cane without having to grind for 2 hours? He should be ashamed! No, it didn't "start" with GTCs. Selling GTC/PLEX for ISK is not the same as converting Aurum to ships û those are very different principles, and they are completely independent of each other. If you do not understand this, then gtfo and don't come back until you do. Reading comprehension 101. Go back to school, take the classes you've missed, then come back. kthxbye
Atticus Fynch Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.15 13:03:00 - [708] Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 15/06/2011 13:03:37 OK, I sat through as much of this thread as i could as most of it is just mind-numbing ****. Bottom line: If you want to sell ships for Arum just for "cosmetic" purposes...then make them module-less. In other words, as useful as a shuttle. That would balance things out.
Memorya	Posted - 2011.06.15 13:21:00 - [709] This is the line, where EVE as mmorpg has no longer value and it is draining last $$$ out it's player base. You like it or not, this is how it goes. Many experienced people have already seen such effect in other mmorpg's. Time to go. (I am posting with my main character) ------------------------ English is my 5th. Language.
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.06.15 13:30:00 - [710] Originally by: Memorya This is the line, where EVE as mmorpg has no longer value and it is draining last $$$ out it's player base. You like it or not, this is how it goes. Many experienced people have already seen such effect in other mmorpg's. Time to go. (I am posting with my main character) I hope not, but it certainly looks like it on the surface. I can't help to wonder why CCP seems so excited at the prospect of money transactions. It has rarely done anything good for the games that attempted it.
DeBingJos Minmatar Jukebox Warriors	Posted - 2011.06.15 13:35:00 - [711] Originally by: Sarina Berghil I can't help to wonder why CCP seems so excited at the prospect of money transactions. It has rarely done anything good for the games that attempted it. I don't get it either, they seem to be exited by the Aurum introduction. Most of the players I know see it as some sort of punishment; they will have to pay extra for some game-content. To be honest, I would rather see the subscription cost rise a little (like 0.5 EUR) than these new microtransactions. (vanity or non-vanity) TLDR: I feel ripped off by CCP and still they act like MT's are making the game better.
Iosue Black Sky Hipsters	Posted - 2011.06.15 14:21:00 - [712] /rant The only reason I started playing this game to begin with was because of the player driven market. Almost 4 years ago I read an article in the New York Times discussing this game in great detail, especially the virtual economy that to-date, is the best representation of a real ôfree-marketö in the world. As a RL banker, this possibility seemed fantastic, and I eagerly signed up for a trial asap. Fast-forward 3.5 years; since that day almost four years ago, I now have four accounts on annual subs and have participated in almost every facet of this game. The crazy part is that it still engages me to the point that I read the forums and play the game on a daily basis. ItÆs not the missions or mining that engages me, nor the pvp or exploration. ItÆs the player-driven market that keeps my interest and dollars going to you, CCP. REMEMBER THAT!!! Once you start prostituting this aspect of the game, you can kiss my arse and my four accounts goodbye. I make good money and have lots of disposable income; IÆve invested over $2,000 in annual subs, the occasional PLEX and RL Clothing via the EVE Online Store over the last 3.5 years. Hell, IÆm even ready to buy a damn PS3 and several copies of Dust514 (for friends) when it releases. Notice, I said IÆve bought PLEX to exchange for isk before, that is not what I have a problem with. You found an ingenious way to incorporate RL $$ for isk to the game and I applaud you for that. MT for existing in-game items w/o including player manufacturers/miners/pirates/traders/etc is not acceptable. MT items for in-game items that affect the outcome of battles, pirating, exploring, etc is not acceptable. While I am not happy about the idea of MT at all, I can live with some minimal amount of it. As long as it doesnÆt screw with the player-driven market or have meaningful (more than cosmetic) effects in game. Once you decide to go down that road, you will lose my (and many others, it seems) respect and interest in your game, even if only testing it for a month or a week. This is a terrible precedent to set and know that by doing so you are gambling with a lot of playersÆ money. You currently have something that works and that people love. Please donÆt defile it by spoiling the player-driven market aspect of the game. I know itÆs your game and you can do what you want with it, but itÆs my money and my support has strings attached.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 14:51:00 - [713] Quote: Originally by: CCP Zinfandel[...]And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes [...] The answer is not ****ing "no" you god damn liars. The answer is "Yes, the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is not made with minerals that came from the game, and the scorpion is. They both have the exact same stats." I hate to swear at you so much lately but you have crossed the line both in both ethics and what makes a game suck. Eve; the next Runes of Magic. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
Trebor Daehdoow	Posted - 2011.06.15 15:20:00 - [714] Originally by: Rex Liberium You should inflame or downplay the issue because you should represent us. You can not stay on the sidelines on an issue like aurum-for-ships. If CCP wants to implement it anyway they can go ahead, its their game. Advising against it is something else as saying NO. You appear to believe that CSM wields a Hammer of Sensibility that can force CCP to do what we tell them. Alas, this is not the case. Instead, we swing the Fluffy Pillow of Influence.
Logan LaMort Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.15 15:23:00 - [715] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: Rex Liberium You should inflame or downplay the issue because you should represent us. You can not stay on the sidelines on an issue like aurum-for-ships. If CCP wants to implement it anyway they can go ahead, its their game. Advising against it is something else as saying NO. You appear to believe that CSM wields a Hammer of Sensibility that can force CCP to do what we tell them. Alas, this is not the case. Instead, we swing the Fluffy Pillow of Influence. Shame you can't put a brick in that pillow
Salomei	Posted - 2011.06.15 15:23:00 - [716] Why is this even a temporary measure!? If it's not done, don't put it in! Otherwise, why not these: "We're adding a new calibre of medium artillery, but in its current form it hits for 20000 damage and doesn't need ammo. But we'll try that out for a week until we can implement it as planned." "We added a new T2 BPO to the game, but in its current form it would be in unlimited supply and purchasable for 20isk in the standard market. But we'll try that out for a week until we can implement it as planned." "We've made character creation more user friendly, but in its current form all new characters will train as if all their stats were at 30, and be given a starting pool of 30mil SP. But we'll try that out for a week until we can implement it as planned."
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.15 15:36:00 - [717] Originally by: Logan LaMort Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: Rex Liberium You should inflame or downplay the issue because you should represent us. You can not stay on the sidelines on an issue like aurum-for-ships. If CCP wants to implement it anyway they can go ahead, its their game. Advising against it is something else as saying NO. You appear to believe that CSM wields a Hammer of Sensibility that can force CCP to do what we tell them. Alas, this is not the case. Instead, we swing the Fluffy Pillow of Influence. Shame you can't put a brick in that pillow Even some peas or potatoes or rubber-balls would do it.. but yeah Trebor, if you ever get a chance again to talk to Zimfandel, use your fluffy pillow to suggest the paint-rigs™-idea. It reuses old code, it's a known functional mechanic, it has no effect ingame besides bling, the ships being equipped with it stay with it, the stuff gets destroyed on a constant basis and demand would be huge. Swing the paint-rig-pillow of colours. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Althus Treefingers Minmatar Voluval Security Services	Posted - 2011.06.15 15:43:00 - [718] Edited by: Althus Treefingers on 15/06/2011 15:45:41 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow There apparently some conversations about the economic consequences of the 1-week sale, and some CSMs were apparently of the opinion that a 1-week sale of premium-priced Sparkle-Scorpions probably wouldn't hurt the industrialists who build regular Scorpions. But that is a separate issue from "this is a bad idea in the first place". And then, as has become clear, Zinfandel misremembered things, and a threadnaught was born. Best, Trebor I like this ^ ***es me off when someone hears: "This one bad part of X is less of a problem than it would initially appear, though X is still horrible on the whole." as: "I think this one shortcoming of X is a tad overblown and I am, on balance, tolerant or supportive of X." The point, CCP, was that there are many* things wrong with "Aurum + nothing = sparkle ship" besides how it affects scorp-makers. The point was not that since industrialists won't be ruined, it's okay to run with this "trial".
Cutter Isaacson Minmatar Fearsome Engine	Posted - 2011.06.15 15:58:00 - [719] Well this whole thread can be closed now, since it's been made clear that CCP are no longer going to be doing the 1 week AURUM for ships test on TQ. Everyone can put their toys back in their prams, grab their dummies and relax again.
Trebor Daehdoow	Posted - 2011.06.15 16:02:00 - [720] Originally by: Logan LaMort Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: Rex Liberium You should inflame or downplay the issue because you should represent us. You can not stay on the sidelines on an issue like aurum-for-ships. If CCP wants to implement it anyway they can go ahead, its their game. Advising against it is something else as saying NO. You appear to believe that CSM wields a Hammer of Sensibility that can force CCP to do what we tell them. Alas, this is not the case. Instead, we swing the Fluffy Pillow of Influence. Shame you can't put a brick in that pillow Each CSM receives a brand new Pillowcase of Persuasion, because after a while the old one gets encrusted with drool. Originally by: Tres Farmer Trebor, if you ever get a chance again to talk to Zinfandel, use your fluffy pillow to suggest the paint-rigsÖ-idea. It reuses old code, it's a known functional mechanic, it has no effect ingame besides bling, the ships being equipped with it stay with it, the stuff gets destroyed on a constant basis and demand would be huge. Swing the paint-rig-pillow of colours. As I understand how things are implemented, this would not be possible at present for full paint jobs, but might be a way to implement alliance logos and nose art. Some ideas about these kinds of things were informally discussed over dinners, etc.
Natalie Dorgiers	Posted - 2011.06.15 16:33:00 - [721] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow As I understand how things are implemented, [paint rigs] would not be possible at present for full paint jobs, but might be a way to implement alliance logos and nose art. Some ideas about these kinds of things were informally discussed over dinners, etc. Given CCP's tendency to reach beyond their grasp, I'd think something involving decals with existing graphics (current textures plus current corp logos) would be much more reasonable than a whole set of custom ship textures. These would be ridiculously popular, are probably much simpler to implement, and will likely generate a good chunk of the hoped-for revenue. The current special edition ship swap idea has all the look of a massive, poor-ROI labour sink.
Glyken Touchon Gallente Independent Alchemists	Posted - 2011.06.15 18:28:00 - [722] read up to page 18, then skimmed the rest, so apologies if these have been stated. better options than releasing the aurship (even for a week): wait until the trade-in code works paint rigs: would require rework of many functionalities BPC: material components=ship(not minerals), manufacture time in seconds. Doing this would invalidate resale on market prior to "painting" though. The inability to stock BPCs shows they are using market, rather than contract code for the noble exchange, and with the emphasis on a secondary market, I can't see this being chosen as an option. LP store: nexus chip style would be very kludgy and not be very appealing The problem with the last couple of these is that unless you are in the correct station (manufacturing slots/LP store), you don't get the immediate "wow" factor of what you have just bought, which will put people off. in Short, wait until the trade-in code works. ______ Originally by: CCP Veritas In other words, I believe Dogma is doing stupid things, and I intend to beat the stupid out of it before considering giving it rocket boots.
Snake Scofield	Posted - 2011.06.15 18:35:00 - [723] Originally by: Iosue /rant The only reason I started playing this game to begin with was because of the player driven market. Almost 4 years ago I read an article in the New York Times discussing this game in great detail, especially the virtual economy that to-date, is the best representation of a real ôfree-marketö in the world. As a RL banker, this possibility seemed fantastic, and I eagerly signed up for a trial asap. Fast-forward 3.5 years; since that day almost four years ago, I now have four accounts on annual subs and have participated in almost every facet of this game. The crazy part is that it still engages me to the point that I read the forums and play the game on a daily basis. ItÆs not the missions or mining that engages me, nor the pvp or exploration. ItÆs the player-driven market that keeps my interest and dollars going to you, CCP. REMEMBER THAT!!! Once you start prostituting this aspect of the game, you can kiss my arse and my four accounts goodbye. I make good money and have lots of disposable income; IÆve invested over $2,000 in annual subs, the occasional PLEX and RL Clothing via the EVE Online Store over the last 3.5 years. Hell, IÆm even ready to buy a damn PS3 and several copies of Dust514 (for friends) when it releases. Notice, I said IÆve bought PLEX to exchange for isk before, that is not what I have a problem with. You found an ingenious way to incorporate RL $$ for isk to the game and I applaud you for that. MT for existing in-game items w/o including player manufacturers/miners/pirates/traders/etc is not acceptable. MT items for in-game items that affect the outcome of battles, pirating, exploring, etc is not acceptable. While I am not happy about the idea of MT at all, I can live with some minimal amount of it. As long as it doesnÆt screw with the player-driven market or have meaningful (more than cosmetic) effects in game. Once you decide to go down that road, you will lose my (and many others, it seems) respect and interest in your game, even if only testing it for a month or a week. This is a terrible precedent to set and know that by doing so you are gambling with a lot of playersÆ money. You currently have something that works and that people love. Please donÆt defile it by spoiling the player-driven market aspect of the game. I know itÆs your game and you can do what you want with it, but itÆs my money and my support has strings attached. This. Well said.
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Spricer WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2011.06.15 18:43:00 - [724] And you all thought CCP stops at buying clothes. No, they would never sell non optional stuff... I toly ya
Kari Moltov Amarr Prometheus Industries	Posted - 2011.06.15 19:02:00 - [725] tldr. But did read title. Eve is great for the developments in the game. Barring RMT (which you should fix) and your dam plex (which you should remove) the rest is good - don't ruin it.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.15 19:40:00 - [726] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 15/06/2011 19:42:49 Edited by: Mr Kidd on 15/06/2011 19:40:36 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow some CSMs were apparently of the opinion that a 1-week sale of premium-priced Sparkle-Scorpions probably wouldn't hurt the industrialists who build regular Scorpions. But that is a separate issue from "this is a bad idea in the first place". Zinfandel's remembrance aside, you guys need to not sign off on CCP's desire to push headlong into MT before the entire endeavor is completed on the development side. Given CCP's track record for implementation and follow up and given the seriousness of MT and it's implications no compromise should be made that allows "unfinished" renditions to enter the game. I realize you guys have no ability to stop CCP from what it wants to do, abracadabra we're getting MT. But, the CSM must not be so friendly with CCP as to sign off on bad ideas even for supposedly temporary implementation. To do so only gives a certain amount of legitimacy to CCP's actions when they clearly contradict the wishes of the playerbase allowing them to deflect a portion of the player rage onto you guys. After all, CCP frequently throws around that you guys are "representing" us. Whether you are/aren't I'm not debating it. But, I'm sure CCP has no problem using you guys a their own personal versions of human shields. I'm not a fan of compromise except when it suits my needs, as is true of most people and I'm sure CCP feels the same. There are times to compromise and times not to. Allowing unfinished MT development to enter the game is a time to hold fast!
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Sick Tight BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.15 20:16:00 - [727] Originally by: Mr Kidd Edited by: Mr Kidd on 15/06/2011 19:42:49 Edited by: Mr Kidd on 15/06/2011 19:40:36 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow some CSMs were apparently of the opinion that a 1-week sale of premium-priced Sparkle-Scorpions probably wouldn't hurt the industrialists who build regular Scorpions. But that is a separate issue from "this is a bad idea in the first place". Zinfandel's remembrance aside, you guys need to not sign off on CCP's desire to push headlong into MT before the entire endeavor is completed on the development side. Given CCP's track record for implementation and follow up and given the seriousness of MT and it's implications no compromise should be made that allows "unfinished" renditions to enter the game. I realize you guys have no ability to stop CCP from what it wants to do, abracadabra we're getting MT. But, the CSM must not be so friendly with CCP as to sign off on bad ideas even for supposedly temporary implementation. To do so only gives a certain amount of legitimacy to CCP's actions when they clearly contradict the wishes of the playerbase allowing them to deflect a portion of the player rage onto you guys. After all, CCP frequently throws around that you guys are "representing" us. Whether you are/aren't I'm not debating it. But, I'm sure CCP has no problem using you guys a their own personal versions of human shields. I'm not a fan of compromise except when it suits my needs, as is true of most people and I'm sure CCP feels the same. There are times to compromise and times not to. Allowing unfinished MT development to enter the game is a time to hold fast! This. Give them an inch... Originally by: McKinlay When you get on the batphone and the only people left in the phone book are Aeternus and BLAST it might be time to hang up.
Cave Lord	Posted - 2011.06.15 20:25:00 - [728] You're wrong. We do have the ability to influence CCP, with our wallets. I encourage each and every one of you who has a problem with microtransactions and/or purchasing items directly without it having to be built to close all of your accounts. We all knew this was coming, but heck, this was CCP, one of the coolest game companies around! So we trusted them to just stick with plexes... have they kept their word? or do we need to send feedback through our wallets instead of our ignored forum posts?
Lady Go Diveher	Posted - 2011.06.15 20:25:00 - [729] Dear CCP: If you were testing player reaction .. well I think you have your answer If you honestly thought "Bah.. looks like we can't make it work, lets introduce this game-changing element almost randomly and just hope nothing bad happens" I've played those "play to win" games before, you know .. the ones you get peddled to you on iPhone "buy 100 magic coins for $0.99!!!" and they are utterly, utterly grim. For the love of all things new Eden, stop. Stop now, and take a good look at how you are introducing this. Making money is good, we get that ... but ALL these "play to win" games are hopelessly short-lived flash in the pan style things, where players get utterly sick of the financial model after a very short amount of time and quit. You have new-player retention issues as it is. You put those two together and try to see how long you think your company will last if you **** on the players who have been with you for 8 years. tl;dr - don't hurt eve
Mylor Torlone	Posted - 2011.06.15 21:38:00 - [730] Originally by: Lady Go Diveher Dear CCP: If you were testing player reaction .. well I think you have your answer If you honestly thought "Bah.. looks like we can't make it work, lets introduce this game-changing element almost randomly and just hope nothing bad happens" I've played those "play to win" games before, you know .. the ones you get peddled to you on iPhone "buy 100 magic coins for $0.99!!!" and they are utterly, utterly grim. For the love of all things new Eden, stop. Stop now, and take a good look at how you are introducing this. Making money is good, we get that ... but ALL these "play to win" games are hopelessly short-lived flash in the pan style things, where players get utterly sick of the financial model after a very short amount of time and quit. You have new-player retention issues as it is. You put those two together and try to see how long you think your company will last if you **** on the players who have been with you for 8 years. tl;dr - don't hurt eve
DuKackBoon	Posted - 2011.06.15 21:59:00 - [731] Edited by: DuKackBoon on 15/06/2011 22:00:42 Originally by: Naomi Wildfire Edited by: Naomi Wildfire on 15/06/2011 18:58:07 And you all thought CCP stops at buying clothes. No, they would never sell non optional stuff... The paintjobs are purely optical -_- Also this provides a good ISK sink: I WANT THAT! -> Buy PLEX -> Exchange for Aurum -> Buy Paintjob -> ?????? -> PROFIT.
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:12:00 - [732] Edited by: Mars Theran on 15/06/2011 22:14:11 It always amazes me how 300 people can argue about something, turn it into a 25 page Threadnaught, and claim that their opinions represent 80% of the playerbase. edit: That's assuming there are 300 people posting in here. Given there are just over 750 posts, and I know I account for 4 or more of them, and multiple others account for multiple posts, I think it's probably less.
Whim Aqayn	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:12:00 - [733] Originally by: Mars Theran It always amazes me how 300 people can argue about something, turn it into a 25 page Threadnaught, and claim that their opinions represent 80% of the playerbase. Someone is late to the troll party.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:15:00 - [734] Originally by: DuKackBoon Also this provides a good ISK sink: I WANT THAT! -> Buy PLEX -> Exchange for Aurum -> Buy Paintjob -> ?????? -> PROFIT. That is not an ISK sink. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Majuan Shuo Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:19:00 - [735] Originally by: Vandrion Linkage It goes deeper then just a painted scorp.......... That is the thread I posted in the Assembly Hall section of our forum. Take some time to read all the posts not just the first one. **** that wall of text, paraphrase
Perramas Caldari Pan Caldarian Ventures	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:21:00 - [736] Originally by: Mars Theran Edited by: Mars Theran on 15/06/2011 22:14:11 It always amazes me how 300 people can argue about something, turn it into a 25 page Threadnaught, and claim that their opinions represent 80% of the playerbase. edit: That's assuming there are 300 people posting in here. Given there are just over 750 posts, and I know I account for 4 or more of them, and multiple others account for multiple posts, I think it's probably less. I hadnt felt a need to post my displeasure at CCP over this until now. I canceled my account yesterday and it expires in 4 or 5 days. A big ole **** you to CCP!
Majuan Shuo Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:23:00 - [737] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: DuKackBoon Also this provides a good ISK sink: I WANT THAT! -> Buy PLEX -> Exchange for Aurum -> Buy Paintjob -> ?????? -> PROFIT. That is not an ISK sink. yeah in no way does that provide an isk sink, that provides a RL money sink... up your perception and intelligence
JeanPant Man	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:29:00 - [738] Edited by: JeanPant Man on 15/06/2011 22:31:50 I'll judge it when it actually happens. Until then I'll happily continue playing. If I were CCP, I'd sell the BPC for $. Requirements for production would be the T1 ship and paint.
DuKackBoon	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:38:00 - [739] Originally by: Majuan Shuo Originally by: Tippia Originally by: DuKackBoon Also this provides a good ISK sink: I WANT THAT! -> Buy PLEX -> Exchange for Aurum -> Buy Paintjob -> ?????? -> PROFIT. That is not an ISK sink. yeah in no way does that provide an isk sink, that provides a RL money sink... up your perception and intelligence You are not required to spend RL money on it. You can just buy a PLEX and exchange that for Aurum.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:46:00 - [740] Originally by: DuKackBoon You are not required to spend RL money on it. You can just buy a PLEX and exchange that for Aurum. àbut since no ISK is removed, it is still not an ISK sink. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Katrina Cortez	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:10:00 - [741] Requiring a normal scorp is the right thing to do but CCP knows that if a player has to buy the scorp that they wont be AS willing to spend the Aurum thus they wont be able to charge as much.
Gedid Tava Gallente The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:38:00 - [742] Originally by: Glyken Touchon better options than releasing the aurship (even for a week): [list=1] wait until the trade-in code works from another post on this here forum "However, after getting some feedback on the forums, we decided not to go ahead with this "ship for Aurum" initiative and wait until the store supports trade-ins or BPCs." Se±or Snakebite CCP This thread needs the good old lock and flush as it no longer is relevant.
III ZiggyBang Amarr	Posted - 2011.06.16 00:42:00 - [743] Quote: Project it far enough and all women are *****s QFT^^
Nicol Caius	Posted - 2011.06.16 00:49:00 - [744] ccp, why would you do this to your player base? we've supported you all these years, watching you grow up. now you want to bend us over and do all sorts of naughty things to our private parts. what gives? are the millions of dollars we have already pumped into this game no longer enough? we pay monthly subscriptions, plexes, other merchandise to show our support for what you are doing. we are repaid with buggy expansions and calls for micro-transactions. i feel violated and betrayed. are you no longer able to suppress your viking heritage? must you defile and pillage to teach those that love you a lesson?? why?!?!?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.16 01:23:00 - [745] Originally by: Mars Theran Edited by: Mars Theran on 15/06/2011 22:14:11 It always amazes me how 300 people can argue about something, turn it into a 25 page Threadnaught, and claim that their opinions represent 80% of the playerbase. edit: That's assuming there are 300 people posting in here. Given there are just over 750 posts, and I know I account for 4 or more of them, and multiple others account for multiple posts, I think it's probably less. when did someone say they were 80% of the playerbase??? We are just poiting out that 100% of the gameworld can't work with a change. just because a lot of player don't think the stuff they buy i eve comrs from anywhere minerals are free people doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.
Zverofaust Gallente Incompertus INC Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2011.06.16 01:37:00 - [746] Frankly this crap doesn't really affect me in any immediate way so I don't feel any need to go ape** and cancel/pretend to cancel my accounts. If CCP wants to tell an artist or two to spend an hour tops altering the Scorpion texture and then sell them for $15 a pop, then by all means anyone stupid enough to fall for that is really welcome to empty their wallets. What it does do however, particularly when coupled with recently announced plans (monetizing API apps, selling clothes for $$$, etc), is worry me. Like many a developing studio that has made a name for itself by creating a unique, innovative game (DICE and Bethesda come to mind), CCP seems to be headed towards mass consumerism, shifting its focus from making games to making money. On the surface this seems like a trivial distinction but really it isn't. Like I said this isn't going to make me ragepost on the forums and bleat about canceling my 234593 accounts and blah blah. But every month when it comes time to refill my game time, ** like this is going to be adding to that voice in my head nagging me not to.
Gwenywell Shumuku	Posted - 2011.06.16 01:40:00 - [747] Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 16/06/2011 01:41:32 lol hahaha i estimated it would take them at least till next year to open the shop up for ships, but they are crossing the line already NOW? hahaha way to **** on your customer base, this is pretty unheard of. So, its done now. EVE will become a fully fledged MT-Shop, like Dust and Incarna. Everything will be available for AUR. Great job CCP, great job.
Silas Cooper	Posted - 2011.06.16 01:46:00 - [748] Originally by: Zverofaust CCP seems to be headed towards mass consumerism, shifting its focus from making games to making money. On the surface this seems like a trivial distinction but really it isn't. CCP shifted their goals a long time ago when Oveur stated that their new goal was to get 300k subscribers (this was in 2007 iirc). Also, neither Oveur or Hellmar have updated ingame avatars, they're grey nobodies. That tells us that they haven't bothered to represent in EVE for the past few months, not really a good sign now is it. Your post is spot on btw. -- You can't cure stupid.
Evelgrivion Gunpoint Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.06.16 01:54:00 - [749] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 16/06/2011 01:55:02 Originally by: Silas Cooper Originally by: Zverofaust CCP seems to be headed towards mass consumerism, shifting its focus from making games to making money. On the surface this seems like a trivial distinction but really it isn't. CCP shifted their goals a long time ago when Oveur stated that their new goal was to get 300k subscribers (this was in 2007 iirc). Also, neither Oveur or Hellmar have updated ingame avatars, they're grey nobodies. That tells us that they haven't bothered to represent in EVE for the past few months, not really a good sign now is it. Your post is spot on btw. The distinction is huge. Valve is the Pixar of video game development; they seek to make good games, and the result is quality. Electronic Arts is like the bulk of the film industry; they're out to make money, and the result is dozens of rehashed games. Passion means a lot for any product. Given their gaffes over the last three years, CCP seems to have lost theirs quite some time ago. Passion is the difference between setting out to make the best game they can out of a love for what they're doing, and trying to milk as much money from they can out of what other people do. This change in methodologies is eroding the good things about EVE Online and eroding the community's ability to enjoy EVE Online.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.16 02:03:00 - [750] Originally by: Cutter Isaacson Well this whole thread can be closed now, since it's been made clear that CCP are no longer going to be doing the 1 week AURUM for ships test on TQ. Everyone can put their toys back in their prams, grab their dummies and relax again. Originally by: Gedid Tava Originally by: Glyken Touchon better options than releasing the aurship (even for a week): [list=1] wait until the trade-in code works from another post on this here forum "However, after getting some feedback on the forums, we decided not to go ahead with this "ship for Aurum" initiative and wait until the store supports trade-ins or BPCs." Se±or Snakebite CCP This thread needs the good old lock and flush as it no longer is relevant. Hey ***heads, once you work for CCP as Forums mod you can decide for a thread to be locked.. until then you got the option to report it or just plain ignoring it as the rest of us. As you didn't do either one, it only shows all others here one thing: you're chatterboxes. Also, for Gedid Tava up there.. check your quotes.. this hasn't been said by Se±or Snakebite CCP* but CCP Spitfire On a personal note I think it's needed to keep the pressure up for a while to show CCP that we care you wannabe moderators. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.16 02:08:00 - [751] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow snip Originally by: Tres Farmer Trebor, if you ever get a chance again to talk to Zinfandel, use your fluffy pillow to suggest the paint-rigsÖ-idea. It reuses old code, it's a known functional mechanic, it has no effect ingame besides bling, the ships being equipped with it stay with it, the stuff gets destroyed on a constant basis and demand would be huge. Swing the paint-rig-pillow of colours. As I understand how things are implemented, this would not be possible at present for full paint jobs, but might be a way to implement alliance logos and nose art. Some ideas about these kinds of things were informally discussed over dinners, etc. Then I don't get it.. CCP is striving for excellence but is willing to test-run stuff in their one and only penny-maker?!? Releasing half-finished product is not the way to go. CCP this sucks. Get your freaking act together. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
TedStriker The Scope	Posted - 2011.06.16 02:40:00 - [752] unsubbed. thats the only language CCP understands.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.16 02:48:00 - [753] Originally by: TedStriker unsubbed. thats the only language CCP understands. Me too, just now. CCP has 28 days to change my mind.
Zoloft Rx	Posted - 2011.06.16 03:09:00 - [754] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: TedStriker unsubbed. thats the only language CCP understands. Me too, just now. CCP has 28 days to change my mind. Unfortunately, I activated a GTC,so I cant express my dissent through means of cash flow. 57d:19h:2m remaining.
Zoloft Rx	Posted - 2011.06.16 03:37:00 - [755] Edited by: Zoloft Rx on 16/06/2011 03:41:11 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. This is how you do it: Sell SHIP SKINS Ship skins go in hangar. Activate ship. Drag skin to ship or r-click "apply this skin to active ship" Skin is like a rig, if removed, its destroyed. Result: No players were harmed in the making of this skin. EDIT: And please dont put out something thats going to create minerals from rl money (skinned scorpion >> reprocess) even for a little while.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2011.06.16 03:58:00 - [756] Originally by: Zoloft Rx This is how you do it: Back-seat programmers, best programmers.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.16 04:01:00 - [757] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Zoloft Rx This is how you do it: Back-seat programmers, best programmers. So you say the AUR shop can't sell special paintjob rigs that would fit into paintjob rig slots and the supplementing code of that couldn't be taken pretty straight forward from the rigs? He might be an armchair programmer, but you're a smart-ass. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.16 04:10:00 - [758] Originally by: Tres Farmer So you say the AUR shop can't sell special paintjob rigs that would fit into paintjob rig slots and the supplementing code of that couldn't be taken pretty straight forward from the rigs? He might be an armchair programmer, but you're a smart-ass. Personally, I'd prefer the "paint rig" or many of the other ideas that have been tossed around over the years. They could code it, but likely isn't cost efficient for them to do it, considering all the other decisions and actions we have seen recently, them taking the less expensive option is not a surprise. I suspect the way it works now is, the skin and ship model are 'one thing' as far as the client is concerned. So when it gets a TypeID from the server, it just grabs what ever that 'thing' is and draws it, all canned and ready to go with out making additional evaluations and renderings. Changing that on both the server and client would be more expensive than just making a new 'thing' the old way. CCP is selling us the cheap option, not the best option.
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.16 05:38:00 - [759] Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Zoloft Rx This is how you do it: Back-seat programmers, best programmers. So you say the AUR shop can't sell special paintjob rigs that would fit into paintjob rig slots and the supplementing code of that couldn't be taken pretty straight forward from the rigs? He might be an armchair programmer, but you're a smart-ass. As long as the 'paint-job' has been made for that particular model, he can. If it hasn't, it isn't going to work very well at all.
Zeta Kalin Large Rodent Hunters	Posted - 2011.06.16 05:41:00 - [760] Originally by: Nova Lux How could anyone at CCP think that popping ships into existence would be okay? Easy, someone not giving a **** about EVE and what it stands for.
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.16 05:42:00 - [761] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Tres Farmer So you say the AUR shop can't sell special paintjob rigs that would fit into paintjob rig slots and the supplementing code of that couldn't be taken pretty straight forward from the rigs? He might be an armchair programmer, but you're a smart-ass. Personally, I'd prefer the "paint rig" or many of the other ideas that have been tossed around over the years. They could code it, but likely isn't cost efficient for them to do it, considering all the other decisions and actions we have seen recently, them taking the less expensive option is not a surprise. I suspect the way it works now is, the skin and ship model are 'one thing' as far as the client is concerned. So when it gets a TypeID from the server, it just grabs what ever that 'thing' is and draws it, all canned and ready to go with out making additional evaluations and renderings. Changing that on both the server and client would be more expensive than just making a new 'thing' the old way. CCP is selling us the cheap option, not the best option. The skin is a flag in the ship's rendering description. change it from 0 to 5 and you have a different skin. The skins are called on based on the model used for the ship, and skins which have been designed for it. It's actually really simple, but something needs to flip the flag from one number to another. Technically, that requires that it needs a new ID. That doesn't mean a paintjob rig wouldn't work, but the code required to do it would have to run continuously.
Lady Gravewalker Amarr Versatech Co. Raiden.	Posted - 2011.06.16 06:16:00 - [762] Like most games that charge for ingame stuff, they are free to play most up and comming new online games are free to play and you pay for premium content. Will ccp make eve free to play? ( i doubt it but who knows) Will i cancel my subscription? No i do love this game i will still run 4 accounts (i did have 5 but decided to cut down) Will i buy stuff in game with the Aurum? I doubt it but you never know i might take a peak unless ccp rip people off with it. I for one agree with most people why do ccp need so much money from people turning eve into a cash cow will effect and hurt the community, and in the end will lose subscripers as people switch to newer and FREE games.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.16 06:23:00 - [763] guys they allready put it on ice, clam the F down
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.16 06:35:00 - [764] Edited by: Tres Farmer on 16/06/2011 06:38:13 Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Tres Farmer So you say the AUR shop can't sell special paintjob rigs that would fit into paintjob rig slots and the supplementing code of that couldn't be taken pretty straight forward from the rigs? He might be an armchair programmer, but you're a smart-ass. Personally, I'd prefer the "paint rig" or many of the other ideas that have been tossed around over the years. They could code it, but likely isn't cost efficient for them to do it, considering all the other decisions and actions we have seen recently, them taking the less expensive option is not a surprise. I suspect the way it works now is, the skin and ship model are 'one thing' as far as the client is concerned. So when it gets a TypeID from the server, it just grabs what ever that 'thing' is and draws it, all canned and ready to go with out making additional evaluations and renderings. Changing that on both the server and client would be more expensive than just making a new 'thing' the old way. CCP is selling us the cheap option, not the best option. Na, I think the biz devs didn't get programming support but just some art guy or even just a binned draft for one of the scorp models out there and tried to run with it.. cause they already must have got the guy(s) who would program the AUR shop (but not more). So yeah.. biz devs tried to cut corners here. Lucky for us he told during the AT and we raged.. again. As for the model vs texture vs itemID.. my fumbling with tri-exporter and using the models some time ago was along the lines of: There is a base model and then there are additional extra model parts for the t2 ships. So you always end up with one base mesh. Then there had been textures and you could apply them to the models. As this thing worked outside of Eve and didn't had a use for the itemIDs I can only theorise on that. I suspect they could put on different maps on the same ship if they wanted to and wouldn't need another itemID. And if that's not in the code yet I personally could really well wait for it to make it into the code instead of some biz dev running with a half assed and gamebreaking implementation that will only cause technical and economical debt down the road. Wasn't this exactly why CCP strived for excellence and why they never wanted to do something like Apocryhphia again? Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.16 06:41:00 - [765] Originally by: Mars Theran Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Tres Farmer So you say the AUR shop can't sell special paintjob rigs that would fit into paintjob rig slots and the supplementing code of that couldn't be taken pretty straight forward from the rigs? He might be an armchair programmer, but you're a smart-ass. Personally, I'd prefer the "paint rig" or many of the other ideas that have been tossed around over the years. They could code it, but likely isn't cost efficient for them to do it, considering all the other decisions and actions we have seen recently, them taking the less expensive option is not a surprise. I suspect the way it works now is, the skin and ship model are 'one thing' as far as the client is concerned. So when it gets a TypeID from the server, it just grabs what ever that 'thing' is and draws it, all canned and ready to go with out making additional evaluations and renderings. Changing that on both the server and client would be more expensive than just making a new 'thing' the old way. CCP is selling us the cheap option, not the best option. The skin is a flag in the ship's rendering description. change it from 0 to 5 and you have a different skin. The skins are called on based on the model used for the ship, and skins which have been designed for it. It's actually really simple, but something needs to flip the flag from one number to another. Technically, that requires that it needs a new ID. That doesn't mean a paintjob rig wouldn't work, but the code required to do it would have to run continuously. Btw, if you use modules on your ship, don't you think that code has to run continuously too? Same for implants or if you're in a gang. Luckily the paint rig would only need to be checked if you enter a grid.. where as the others really have to be checked/run every tick of the server Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.06.16 06:50:00 - [766] If it took at least 1 tick, or sometimes more with lag, for a paint job to "click on" I don't think it would be a big deal, or if people would even be zoomed in enough to notice it change.
Arrs Grazznic Poena Executive Solutions	Posted - 2011.06.16 12:03:00 - [767] Micro transactions for vanity items are fine if you are into those kind of barbie-in-space things. I won't be buying any, but I'm sure there are players who will. However MTs for ships and equipment? **** off CCP, that is just not on for a subscription game.
Shin'alor Minmatar Adhocracy Incorporated	Posted - 2011.06.16 21:57:00 - [768] Since no one seems to be reading Zinfandel's posts, let me go ahead and repost that last one for you guys, so you'll stop flipping the ****** out over nothing. Quote:** No, I think you might have missed a post. The plan is to put the ship into the EVE client for Incarna 1.0 but not put any in the game yet. In August, we will evaluate how things are going, how long until the store can support either BCPs or trade-ins, and then work with the CSM to pick a launch schedule for the ship. See? Nothing to worry about. They understand you guys are upset and how stupid releasing it without a trade-in requirement or as anything but a BPC would be, so they're waiting.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.16 22:09:00 - [769] Originally by: Shin'alor Since no one seems to be reading Zinfandel's posts, let me go ahead and repost that last one for you guys, so you'll stop flipping the ****** out over nothing. Quote:** No, I think you might have missed a post. The plan is to put the ship into the EVE client for Incarna 1.0 but not put any in the game yet. In August, we will evaluate how things are going, how long until the store can support either BCPs or trade-ins, and then work with the CSM to pick a launch schedule for the ship. See? Nothing to worry about. They understand you guys are upset and how stupid releasing it without a trade-in requirement or as anything but a BPC would be, so they're waiting. That's what I said yesterday but got shouted down. :( Here's hoping you and Mother have better luck than I. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Manda Rin Minmatar Sexy Thoughts	Posted - 2011.06.16 22:10:00 - [770] Originally by: Shin'alor Since no one seems to be reading Zinfandel's posts, let me go ahead and repost that last one for you guys, so you'll stop flipping the ****** out over nothing. Quote:** No, I think you might have missed a post. The plan is to put the ship into the EVE client for Incarna 1.0 but not put any in the game yet. In August, we will evaluate how things are going, how long until the store can support either BCPs or trade-ins, and then work with the CSM to pick a launch schedule for the ship. See? Nothing to worry about. They understand you guys are upset and how stupid releasing it without a trade-in requirement or as anything but a BPC would be, so they're waiting. You are a genius The only reason they ~~realised~~ backpedalled is because people kicked up a fuss. To ask people not to kick up a fuss is dumb. Re-iterating the good news to mitigate further presumptions however is a good move and I assume that is what you were aiming for.
Myxx Atropos Group	Posted - 2011.06.16 22:48:00 - [771] As an industrialist since 2005ish, I am INFURIATED by this. If this goes through, CCP will lose me as a customer. You are stomping on feet that have been here for a very, very long time. Don't you dare **ing bite the hand that has helped feed you. -- Originally by:** CCP Explorer (and if you guys would also stop using Drakes it would be really appreciated, kthxbye). Originally by: Tom Gerard Then again... I am a moron.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.16 23:34:00 - [772] I'm all for this. The money I earn at work to pay for this is mine therefore the AUR is free. Amidoingitright?
BeanBagKing Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2011.06.17 00:08:00 - [773] I've been on vacation so I just caught up with this. First of all, I don't like the idea of micro-transactions, another form of currency, vanity items, etc. IMO vanity items are fine, put them on the regular market and let players control it like everything else though, but whatever, maybe I'm misunderstanding how part of this works. That said, I skimmed this growing thread and read the CCP responses. It seems like your taking things slow, erring on the side of caution, and staying in touch with CSM. All good things. While I may not like it as an individual player I realize that a) the game doesn't revolve around me and b) CCP must keep growing, changing, and adapting to remain competitive as I business. I'll accept this as one of those things so long as you are keeping your fingers on the CSM's pulse and taking things slowly. I guess you could say I'm disgruntled at the end objective, but cautiously optimistic about the way your going forward with it, so I'm willing to let it be and hope for the best.
Tel'Kar'Tir	Posted - 2011.06.17 00:19:00 - [774] they should fix the current textures of ships like raven and drake.
Mspaine Amarr Knights of Solitude Knights of the Rising Phoenix	Posted - 2011.06.17 00:42:00 - [775] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:14:27 There's nothing that I like about this feature. However, I'll suffer it so long as these ships are 100% identical in performance to the Tech 1 Scorpion. If those Aurum ships are ANY better than their Tech 1 counterparts, the whole game can go ** itself for putting money above the sandbox. EDIT: Wait just a damn minute, there is NO EXCUSE not to make it consume a regular Tech 1 Scorpion in exchange for these ships!** No BPC exchange method, fine, but there's no reason not to consume a normal Scorpion in the process! Well actualy - You need to give them the scorpion so they can put it into the workshop and give it a paint job - then they give it back to you. Just like clothes - Its novelty. You're not paying isk for ship's - you're paying Isk for a special paintjob that no way effects the performance of the ship. U mad CCP is turning to microtransactions to make cash? Join the club. Before you go hating them for it tho - Have a look at where the global economy is going. If people are willing to fork out cash for a cosmetic look - let them. It's helping CCP pay the bills. You're at no inconveniance whatsoever. You're getting angry tho because you feel that stuff should be free to all players without having to buy plex to turn into Arum.
GateScout	Posted - 2011.06.17 00:48:00 - [776] Originally by: Arrs Grazznic However MTs for ships and equipment? **** off CCP, that is just not on for a subscription game. We ALREADY have this? What's the problem? I can change RL cash to isk and into ships within minutes. How is this significantly different?
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2011.06.17 01:17:00 - [777] Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Zoloft Rx This is how you do it: Back-seat programmers, best programmers. So you say the AUR shop can't sell special paintjob rigs that would fit into paintjob rig slots and the supplementing code of that couldn't be taken pretty straight forward from the rigs? He might be an armchair programmer, but you're a smart-ass. Yes, I'm saying exactly that and you non-programmers need to stop making assumptions about what is and isn't trivial cause you're more often than not completely wrong. Just adding a paintjob rig slot? Those rig slots aren't propagated to other players when you enter a grid, so how do they know which skins to use? Changing the messaging protocol, adding extra code, QA, debugging, and many many programmer man-hours spent. (would however be slightly easier thanks to T3 having been done) Also you'd need to fix the ship (item) viewer, hangar view, fitting view and so on to make sure the extra parameter is passed on. Basically it would be a _LOT_ of work for something that is much easier to do with just a new item type id. And last of all; how would you add item description to the Ishukur Watch Scorpion? Ooops... now you need even _MORE_ code work as the paint job rigs would need to change item descriptions and such. Basically you guys are backseat-programmers.
Constantinus Maximus Paxian Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2011.06.17 01:25:00 - [778] CCP lied to customers? No neva! lol A ship is not a vanity item, I think that is fairly clear.
Goremageddon Box	Posted - 2011.06.17 02:14:00 - [779] bump. _______________________ Hottest Character Ever.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.17 03:45:00 - [780] Originally by: GateScout Originally by: Arrs Grazznic However MTs for ships and equipment? **** off CCP, that is just not on for a subscription game. We ALREADY have this? What's the problem? I can change RL cash to isk and into ships within minutes. How is this significantly different? We don't already have this, actually. The "MT for ship" idea carries the implication that by giving away cash, you receive a ship, and that those are the only goods used in the trade. Cash → ship. In other words, the ship is spawned out of thin air, rather than built by players, from minerals mined by players, using BPs researched by players, and sold on the player-run market. What we have now is exactly that: it's all player-made all the way. With an MT option (and what this IW Scrop offer initially looked like), you bypass all that and just create stuff on demand without dipping into that player industry. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ioci Gallente Space Mermaids	Posted - 2011.06.17 03:53:00 - [781] You know what would be cool? If I could just drop 500 Aurum and suddenly your titan just explodes.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.06.17 04:05:00 - [782] Edited by: Tres Farmer on 17/06/2011 04:07:26 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab snip Originally by: T Farmer So you say the AUR shop can't sell special paintjob rigs that would fit into paintjob rig slots and the supplementing code of that couldn't be taken pretty straight forward from the rigs? He might be an armchair programmer, but you're a smart-ass. Yes, I'm saying exactly that and you non-programmers need to stop making assumptions about what is and isn't trivial cause you're more often than not completely wrong. Who says I'm not a programmer? Or the other guy? We might not know the code or workflow CCP is employing there, but besides that.. Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Just adding a paintjob rig slot? Those rig slots aren't propagated to other players when you enter a grid, so how do they know which skins to use? When your ship enters a grid with other ships connected to it, the additional statuses of the rigs are being known by the space simulation, as otherwise the rigs wouldn't work. It's not magic to have these information upon entering the grid propagated to other players for the paintinformation, when there is no lag. Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Changing the messaging protocol, adding extra code, QA, debugging, and many many programmer man-hours spent. (would however be slightly easier thanks to T3 having been done) And you know that, because you work at CCP as Lead Programmer, or what? Grab your own nose there, Mr I-know-why-it-wont-work. Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Also you'd need to fix the ship (item) viewer, hangar view, fitting view and so on to make sure the extra parameter is passed on. Basically it would be a _LOT_ of work for something that is much easier to do with just a new item type id. Yeah, it's easier now to create a static ship with a static paintjob. But the same could be said for how pos work now or how anything else ingame works. If CCP thinks they don't need this implemented correctly (read: the hard and clean way) so that they have it easier down the road.. their bad. Might also be, why we don't have realtime balancingÖ .. CCP probably doesn't have a bunch of tables with all the values in there, no. They'll have cut corners as you describe it. Every ship has it's own little live in the code and maintaining that is a mess. Thus we never get the balancing in small steps nor within a short amount of time. Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab And last of all; how would you add item description to the Ishukur Watch Scorpion? Ooops... now you need even _MORE_ code work as the paint job rigs would need to change item descriptions and such. Basically you guys are backseat-programmers. You're too. We say this might work and you tell us, it won't work because of that and that. You're not different to us, look in the mirror Mr. Backseat-programmer. Also, why would every friggin paintjob need a new name for the ship type? That's ridiculous. That's exactly the kind of **** that will give us a Themepark instead of a sandbox. There are all kinds of Cars out there on the road and all have different colours and wheels and advertisement on them. Even from the exact same type. But their still called Golf IV or Holden Commodore or Dodge Viper or Toyota Corolla. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
UGWidowmaker Caldari freelancers inc -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.06.17 05:37:00 - [783] buying ships for plex aro wtf its called stupid and lame idea.. u could do it so u just buy the new texture for the ship u bring.. like people could pay for a paintjob. but a ship ??? nooooooo OMFG I am the widowmaker stay tuned. {yellow]Signature which is prompting a login has been removed. Navigator[/yellow]
Constantinus Maximus Paxian Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2011.06.17 05:48:00 - [784] Originally by: Tres Farmer If CCP thinks they don't need this implemented correctly (read: the hard and clean way) so that they have it easier down the road.. their bad. Like everything else they've done in the last 2 years.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2011.06.17 05:51:00 - [785] Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 17/06/2011 05:51:45 Originally by: Tres Farmer When your ship enters a grid with other ships connected to it, the additional statuses of the rigs are being known by the space simulation, as otherwise the rigs wouldn't work. It's not magic to have these information upon entering the grid propagated to other players for the paintinformation, when there is no lag. It is known by the server-side simulation, it is however not known by the clients observing the ships (as that would lead to the possibility of cheating. And no, it's not magic, nor impossible to do and as I pointed out they do something similar for T3. HOWEVER, what I _DID_ say was that it would require programmer and QA resources that they seem to have in rather short supply, and adding or making changes to the messaging protocol to include that information, and all the other places where the paintjob rig information would need to be propagated is not trivial. (And you can't really send it lazily as you suggest above, unless you want ships to suddenly change color after warping in) Originally by: Tres Farmer And you know that, because you work at CCP as Lead Programmer, or what? Grab your own nose there, Mr I-know-why-it-wont-work. No, I don't work at CCP... However if you actually did know programming and paid any attention to what CCP has released of information you would also be able to make figure out roughly what kind of work would be required. Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Also you'd need to fix the ship (item) viewer, hangar view, fitting view and so on to make sure the extra parameter is passed on. Basically it would be a _LOT_ of work for something that is much easier to do with just a new item type id. Yeah, it's easier now to create a static ship with a static paintjob. But the same could be said for how pos work now or how anything else ingame works. If CCP thinks they don't need this implemented correctly (read: the hard and clean way) so that they have it easier down the road.. their bad. Might also be, why we don't have realtime balancingÖ .. CCP probably doesn't have a bunch of tables with all the values in there, no. They'll have cut corners as you describe it. Every ship has it's own little live in the code and maintaining that is a mess. Thus we never get the balancing in small steps nor within a short amount of time. And who are you to judge that separate item type id's for each branded type is the wrong solution? (And the pos comparison makes no sense) While the item data is static, it does not necessarily mean it isn't dynamically created. So there's no problem with updating the master scorpion values when balancing, and all the vanity-scorpions would be automagically updated, and we already know that changing values, e.g. balancing, _IS_ just a matter of changing values in a table. However changing the value, as they've said so many times, is the easy part. Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab And last of all; how would you add item description to the Ishukur Watch Scorpion? Ooops... now you need even _MORE_ code work as the paint job rigs would need to change item descriptions and such. Basically you guys are backseat-programmers. You're too. We say this might work and you tell us, it won't work because of that and that. You're not different to us, look in the mirror Mr. Backseat-programmer. Also, why would every friggin paintjob need a new name for the ship type? They need new names / descriptions because they are faction branded ships, and one of the features CCP promised was the ability to make your own description. So the paintjob rig solution wouldn't just require more programming, it would also lack features. And I should again, for the sake of hammering in the fact, that I never said it was impossible. Rather I pointed out that it would require more effort and special-case code. I don't sit in a back seat, I drive my own allegory car.
Tess Ataru	Posted - 2011.06.17 06:56:00 - [786] I heard CCP will soon offer Tech II BPOs for ca$h, aswell as $killpoints and Capital$hips. Lol this thread is full of nerdrage over nothing. Microtransactions will happen and there nothing you can do about it, CCP just goes with the time.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.17 16:11:00 - [787] I aint too fussed to be honest... although I AM expecting pay úú for a skill training speed buff at some point
Cailais Amarr Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.06.17 16:43:00 - [788] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. Would you do us all a common courtesy and not lie blatantly and directly to our faces please? It's insulting. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
GavinCapacitor	Posted - 2011.06.17 16:53:00 - [789] Originally by: HeIIfire11 Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 15/06/2011 07:17:26 Originally by: Rex Liberium stuff Now I know why I didn't waste my time voting. Even if they were all for mt they are supposed to represent the players as a whole..and I think it is clear what the players want. What's worse is that one of the csm didn't even want to read the thread. He needs to get booted tbh. >don't vote for csm >complain about csm >say "glad I'M not responsible for the situation, because I didn't vote" herp-a-derp.
Alundil Gallente Galactic Salvage Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:10:00 - [790] Aurum, in it's own right is a bad idea for a number of reasons. Creating ships/mods with poof!! magic.....I mean aurum is an even worse idea. This is Internet Spaceships. Not Magic Manufacturing.
Gwenywell Shumuku	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:33:00 - [791] Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 18/06/2011 16:34:15 They are milking the cow now, so if magic manufacturing brings them more money, they will do it. Thats the point, and i think all the rage is not really about MT (you can like or hate it), but its about spoonfeeding us this stuff as if we were fools. They want to make EVE full MT? fine...they should just say so and go on with it. But this crap like "every 2 weeks a new 180¦ turn" is just pathetic
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.18 18:58:00 - [792] Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 18/06/2011 16:34:15 They are milking the cow now, so if magic manufacturing brings them more money, they will do it. Thats the point, and i think all the rage is not really about MT (you can like or hate it), but its about spoonfeeding us this stuff as if we were fools. They want to make EVE full MT? fine...they should just say so and go on with it. But this crap like "every 2 weeks a new 180¦ turn" is just pathetic I think it's obvious that's exactly what they're going to do. The have the mechanism to make this a f2p game now. So, if vanity items don't support that model then rest assured that p2w will be the next model.
adriaans Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak	Posted - 2011.06.18 19:41:00 - [793] Give ship + Aurum -> recieve painted ship back = Fine. Magically spawning a ship from just Aurum = NO **** WAY!! I have invested 6 years in this game, but if you start magically spawning items I see little reason to remain...** --signature-- My latest pvp video: Link
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Sick Tight BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:41:00 - [794] Originally by: GavinCapacitor Originally by: HeIIfire11 Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 15/06/2011 07:17:26 Originally by: Rex Liberium stuff Now I know why I didn't waste my time voting. Even if they were all for mt they are supposed to represent the players as a whole..and I think it is clear what the players want. What's worse is that one of the csm didn't even want to read the thread. He needs to get booted tbh. >don't vote for csm >complain about csm >say "glad I'M not responsible for the situation, because I didn't vote" herp-a-derp. The CSM has been used to justify bad decisions. I'm willing to bet he would have voted to "disband CSM" if given the option. I know I would. Originally by: McKinlay When you get on the batphone and the only people left in the phone book are Aeternus and BLAST it might be time to hang up.
Dielax Aliastra	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:03:00 - [795] Doing a cash shop on a subscription based game is just greedy. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING other than cosmetic type stuff is just stupid. __________________ EVE is LIFE
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:12:00 - [796] Nothing like a thread full of people willing to voice their opinions on matters they not only don't understand, but don't even realize is no longer being done. The EVE community at it's finest. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:29:00 - [797] Originally by: Ranger 1 Nothing like a thread full of people willing to voice their opinions on matters they not only don't understand, but don't even realize is no longer being done. We're just getting ready for the next broken assurances, the next overhyped bug fix, I mean feature - The next nail.
Gwenywell Shumuku	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:31:00 - [798] Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 18/06/2011 21:34:49 Originally by: Ranger 1 Nothing like a thread full of people willing to voice their opinions on matters they not only don't understand, but don't even realize is no longer being done. The EVE community at it's finest. Pff, your arrogance says much about you. PPl are voicing their concern BECAUSE THEY KNOW what MT is, they have seen it in other games time and time again, have experienced it, have seen the games going downhill fast, pay to win is ALWAYS coming sooner or later, its the nature of the beast (you have to feed it to keep the revenue comming, as the market saturates itself with MT-items). Yes, alot of gamers here are oldschool, have seen the "good times" and are ****ed about where this crap is going. EVE is an oldschool game, it did grow for 7+ years, and now thats not good enough anymore...because its stagnating (going up and down) in subscriptions, ONLY BECAUSE CCP stopped developing for it properly, so self inflicted injury. Noone whould have cared if WoD or whatever did become a full MT game. But turning EVE into this after 8 years is just...cruel to a franchise that had its niche and was good at it. And then the devs treating us as if we didn't know were this MT-road leads, and every 2 weeks they present exactly that idea that was previously ruled out as "only vanity"...yea right. Informed ppl are not willing to trust CCP on this anymore, sry, too much confusion, backpadeling, broken promises and blatant lies.
Hans Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous	Posted - 2011.06.19 00:21:00 - [799] Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku Yes, alot of gamers here are oldschool, have seen the "good times" and are **ed about where this crap is going. EVE is an oldschool game, it did grow for 7+ years, and now thats not good enough anymore...because its stagnating (going up and down) in subscriptions, ONLY BECAUSE CCP stopped developing for it properly, so self inflicted injury. Okie dokie. First off, cite your sources - if Eve suscriptions are wavering, lets see some reliable numbers. Originally by:** Gwenywell Shumuku Noone whould have cared if WoD or whatever did become a full MT game. But turning EVE into this after 8 years is just...cruel to a franchise that had its niche and was good at it. There are two implications here - 1) that you dont have an objection to MT, you only have an objection to it in YOUR game. and 2) that the only thing that seperated EVE in your eyes, after playing it for 8 years and being an "oldschool" gamer, is that it lacks MT? Do you really think that all that seperates EvE from WOW is lack of mounts for sale? I certainly hope thats not the only reason you play eve. Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku And then the devs treating us as if we didn't know were this MT-road leads, and every 2 weeks they present exactly that idea that was previously ruled out as "only vanity"...yea right. Informed ppl are not willing to trust CCP on this anymore, sry, too much confusion, backpadeling, broken promises and blatant lies. I don't know about you, but any company out there that I feel specifically targets me with lies, backpedaling, and broken promises, I stop giving my money to. I think its hilarious and sad at the same time to see this very vocal, but still minority of the Eve playerbase call out CCP with a stack of egregious ethics violations but still play the game and pay to do so. If you think CCP is lying, cheating, scamming, profiteering, scalping, gouging, ripping off, or otherwise hurting innocent gamers, and you're posting in this forum, than YOU are to blame. CCP exists cause people like you give them money. Grow a spine people, stop posting as alts, and either offer constructive criticism and help to improve the community, or decide that CCP is corrupt and GTFO so the rest of us can have fun. But calling CCP corrupt and still playing simply means that you endorse such evil.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.06.19 01:20:00 - [800] Originally by: EightGuns Giovanni Edited by: EightGuns Giovanni on 14/06/2011 13:34:35 Kinda a sad really that you can compare EvE and SWG together now It's entirely fair. SWG made a big change and ****ed off the player base. I see this as no different.
Oregin Red Sky Morning BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.19 01:57:00 - [801] The long and short of it is... We've had ships for $ since you could buy GTC/PLEX for ISK. Any Aurum purchase can be bought with ISK by buying a plex and breaking it down. The micro-transactions racket has been going a long time in EVE and I don't have a problem with it. The problem will arise when... Any ships/modules/etc get made out of thin air and screw the economy. Anything can be bought which boosts your character/ship with ONLY $$$ and not indirectly with ISK. Other than that, it's all fine. I can buy a GTC and make 2 PLEX to afford a faction fit faction ship. You could say that I'm paying for a leg up with $$$ (or úúú here...) but I'd never fly that into a fleet fight...
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.19 06:42:00 - [802] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. Highlighted the parts which made me laugh. Christ, CCP, you actually believe your own crap? The CCP we know and hate is so alienated and disconnected from the playerbase that it took Vuk Lau showing them how bad lag was in a frapsed video at one of the CSM sessions before they believed it. The only thing CCP currently monitors are subs (they started doing something about lag because they were losing subs), and once they start making dollah from Dust (which could happen, although I personally hope it is a resounding failure) they'll stop worrying about Eve at all. I got 99 dollah but the game ain't fun
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.06.19 08:44:00 - [803] Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 18/06/2011 21:34:49 Originally by: Ranger 1 Nothing like a thread full of people willing to voice their opinions on matters they not only don't understand, but don't even realize is no longer being done. The EVE community at it's finest. Pff, your arrogance says much about you. PPl are voicing their concern BECAUSE THEY KNOW what MT is, they have seen it in other games time and time again, have experienced it, have seen the games going downhill fast, pay to win is ALWAYS coming sooner or later, its the nature of the beast (you have to feed it to keep the revenue comming, as the market saturates itself with MT-items). Yes, alot of gamers here are oldschool, have seen the "good times" and are ****ed about where this crap is going. EVE is an oldschool game, it did grow for 7+ years, and now thats not good enough anymore...because its stagnating (going up and down) in subscriptions, ONLY BECAUSE CCP stopped developing for it properly, so self inflicted injury. Noone whould have cared if WoD or whatever did become a full MT game. But turning EVE into this after 8 years is just...cruel to a franchise that had its niche and was good at it. And then the devs treating us as if we didn't know were this MT-road leads, and every 2 weeks they present exactly that idea that was previously ruled out as "only vanity"...yea right. Informed ppl are not willing to trust CCP on this anymore, sry, too much confusion, backpadeling, broken promises and blatant lies. I don't think you could have proven my point more eloquently if you had tried. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Amber Accelerando	Posted - 2011.06.19 08:52:00 - [804] Threadnought!!!
Sral TBear Shipwreck cove	Posted - 2011.06.19 09:05:00 - [805] Edited by: Sral TBear on 19/06/2011 09:11:50 Edited by: Sral TBear on 19/06/2011 09:10:52 $ - plex - isk (fair trade) $ - plex - aurum (fair trade) so far im cool with it. Aurum - scorpion - paintjob, well pretty ok for me.. Aurum - paintet scorpion bad bad bad.... Everything have to have a base from the eve market, player createt. You want a new paintjob, you buy the ship and then get it paintet....that is how it should work... I have been monitoring this "monster" since ccp began talking about it, and so far i think they walk on the right side of the line. Most of it is about your char, nothing but bling bling and im ok with that... Now they slowly move on to the ships. As long the base ship comes from the eve market (player createt) they can do what ever they want to do, as long as they keep it to bling bling...any ship with any stats should come from within eve, then you can use the darn aurum to pimp the ride with red, pink and blue.....bling bling is ok from Aurum, and i hope ccp will keep it with that, and i have to say so far i havent seen anything else from them.... Tbear
HairySack Hangin	Posted - 2011.06.19 09:26:00 - [806] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. If any true ships are ever to be sold through the Noble Store they should not be the standard hulls (just sell paint jobs), but should rather be those which are simply not available at all through the player market: Re: Freki, Utu, State Raven and such vessels as that. Or, if people are going to whine and cry about P2W (which the quasi-uniques are not), simply offer hull retooling to make a Rifter look like a Freki, while retaining all of the Rifter's stats. So you'd see Rifter; Freki Variant on the show-info tab. Another very nice offering might be command module retooling; switching the ship bonuses of one vessel to another of the same hull level (A Punisher's bonuses replacing those on a Rifter hull, for example). THAT would liven up PvP, to be very sure.
Lucilla Giulia	Posted - 2011.06.19 14:24:00 - [807] Edited by: Lucilla Giulia on 19/06/2011 14:26:35 Originally by: HairySack Hangin Another very nice offering might be command module retooling; switching the ship bonuses of one vessel to another of the same hull level (A Punisher's bonuses replacing those on a Rifter hull, for example). THAT would liven up PvP, to be very sure. Terrible idea imo that would liven up pvp for the guys who can afford spending extra real money to pay....BAD if it was just for me (and of course it isn't) i'd totally remove the MT project but, given those are the plans "written in stone" for the future of EVE ,i'd like them to be at least limited to crap that doesn't change the balance of the game. P.S ah no more love to this thread from DEV/GMs?
Josefine Etrange Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.19 15:22:00 - [808] Originally by: Syphon Lodian You can buy ships with money already. But you can not create ships with money. Why a forum in the year 2011 still has no automatic double post merge which can be done even with javascript mostly is beyond my understanding.
Gwenywell Shumuku	Posted - 2011.06.19 16:32:00 - [809] Originally by: Josefine Etrange Originally by: Syphon Lodian You can buy ships with money already. But you can not create ships with money. Not anymore, because we called them out (backpadeling). It was planned, well "just for a few weeks" right? Till they implement the "real deal system". And the CSM even agreed to it... Its that stuff that is showing how far they are willing to go, and it deserves all the noise its getting. @to the 2 guys up there replying to my post, 1. when arguments fail he? 2. learn to read, 3. i did unsub (running till August) as i have more spine you will ever have, so stop taking yourselfe as referece for others, 4. i will always voice my opinion if i think something is wrong, and thats my right, and its what may even will make things better. Just staying silent and taking it up the ass is not my thing, but whatever works for you.
Max Von Sydow	Posted - 2011.06.19 16:44:00 - [810] Edited by: Max Von Sydow on 19/06/2011 16:44:58 I'm more annoyed over this being the way CCP implements new paint jobs. I mean, this is trading in a scorpion and AUR for a golden scorpion, but what about the rattlesnake, navy scorpion and widow pilots out there. It's the same hull so the paint job should work the same for those ships as well. Personally I would prefer it if they sold something like "Battleship Paint Job - Gold" on the market and that it's applicable to all BS sized ships or maybe just "Large Paint Job - Gold" and make it available to all ships BS size and large. This would mean that they would have to make new skins for all ships but tbh that shouldn't be much work since it's mostly changing the hue on some areas on the textures, and once you've done that once you could easily create skins for more colors since you now have those areas in of the textures in layers so they can be modified individually from the rest of the skin. That way the gold parts of the golden texture could be made blue or red in a few minutes with photoshop.
Inspiration	Posted - 2011.06.23 20:11:00 - [811] Edited by: Inspiration on 23/06/2011 20:10:59 CSM members, take notice CCP has made a strategic mistake of EPIC proportions! For many players PLEX are the ONLY method of paying their subscription they can sustain. They grind missions or mine in EVE and buy PLEX from other players using ISK they earned in-game. This mechanic is a win/win/win scenario for buying, selling players and also for CCP. By hooking in-game virtual items to real life money trough PLEX, they are disrupting this positive balance. It can only make PLEX more expensive as demand for them picks up as new useful items will be released, effectively locking part of the player base out of the game. Second, the forced changes makes the less powerful machines of these less wealthy people tank (seriously). Making the game less affordable or at the very minimum, make multiple accounts really unfeasible. This too will cost CCP active accounts and thus income from loyal subscribers as well as hurt the sandbox as player content disappears (less targets and human interaction). Now we get to the situation of the lucky players where the above mechanics do not apply. A LOT of development time financed by existing subscribers is being used to develop features and purchasable items that very few actually desire as it now stands. This implies a lot of misdirected resources that could have also been directed towards solving the known (but largely ignored) issues the player base voiced over the years. To add insult to injury, CCP starts charging for limited(?) content that they indirectly already payed a heavy price for! This practice is mind staggering stupid and morally disgusting. Realize your paycheck comes out of our pockets CCP...the game might be your intellectual property, but we are by no means forced to play with your IP forever, thus listening to your customers instead of some mad game designer is a prudent and just thing to do! There is "something" to be said for walking in stations and what new features it can spawn into. But you have to consider the trade offs with respect to your customer base needs. Right now many feel betrayed (and rightfully so IMO), and you should take serious notice CCP. And really virtual items for real live money, do you really think that the sum of players that do get into this feature will be enough to recover the true aggregated development (and maintenance/testing) time spend at CCP? If not, and I think that is very likely right now, it means that it is subsidized work, paid for by neglecting other efforts as development resources can be spend only once! It sets a very BAD precedent too. You are moving to a business model where you do not deliver what your paying customers communicate they want. You create an incentive to actively deliver substandard content that is paid for in full by subscriptions and that also pays for additional content that players might want but have to pay for an additional time just to get it. It is like quality insurance in reverse. It is corrupt from the ground up and a practice most people will hate from the bottom of their hearts. And on AT9 you talked about wealthy players showing off their wealth...well wealth in EVE means ISK. Which means the items should be NPC items that should be paid for by ISK and not PLEX (RL money). Remember my comments about PLEX, you are disrupting the balance and are cutting off people from EVE...actively and as a new design policy! Thit is a MAD business model that can only lead to decline of actual revenue. Stop being short sighted for profit and expand on your strengths instead of playing copy cat of failed business models. WAKE UP before it is TOO LATE...for your own sake! You dont have to throw away all the work being done so far, but you need to serieously change the workings of the new shop!
LIOZTH Caldari Divide By Zero Emergent Dawn	Posted - 2011.06.23 20:16:00 - [812] Originally by: Inspiration Awesome post! ^...and you should be working for CCP, it will probably be one hell of an improvement.
Viibl Triibl	Posted - 2011.06.23 20:23:00 - [813] Originally by: LIOZTH Originally by: Inspiration Awesome post! ^...and you should be working for CCP, it will probably be one hell of an improvement. Pretty much anyone would be an improvement. They've taken a sandbox game about spaceships and made it into a regulated game about styling your avatar.
Rek Seven Gallente Zandathorn Industries	Posted - 2011.06.23 20:36:00 - [814] Originally by: syphurous ( if it is not produced in EVE, I dont want it in Eve ) THIS They should sell the items required to make vanity items so that players can make the end product, otherwise we are going to have forty thousand character walking around with the same monocle.
Callic Veratar	Posted - 2011.06.23 20:52:00 - [815] I'm a little late to the party on this topic, but now that Incarna has actually come out, I wouldn't be surprised if the IWScorp needs 15000-20000 AUR. The idea that you'd need to spend $100 to get one IW Scorps kinda seems likely to me at this point (at least if they do a scorp for free week, and even if they don't).
Gylfie Ambraelle	Posted - 2011.06.23 20:53:00 - [816] ugh what is happening to this game... It's really sad that our subscription money is being used to develop ways to make more money instead of adding to the gameplay. The turret update in incarna was nice, i will give them that. However, It doesn't make up for the terrible walking in stations BS. That was seriously the biggest waste of man hours and player money to date. If CCP would focus on making the game more exciting again with new ships, balancing, etc they would draw more people back to the game, thus making more money. If I wanted a cash shop i'd go play LoL or soemething. And yes, blizzard has a cash shop for WoW but at least their main focus is still gameplay and content... as easy and boring it may be.
noneofnine The Circle	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:19:00 - [817] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:22:02 Originally by: Lothros Andastar Protip: You can buy ships for Isk, which comes from Plex, so you can buy ships for Dollars anyway. Dead wrong. Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is unacceptable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent cannot be allowed. The sandbox MUST NOT become second fiddle to Microtransactions! "Through me the way is to the city dolent; Through me the way is to eternal dole; Through me the way among the people lost."
Mikal Morataya	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:21:00 - [818] Originally by: noneofnine Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:22:02 Originally by: Lothros Andastar Protip: You can buy ships for Isk, which comes from Plex, so you can buy ships for Dollars anyway. Dead wrong. Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is unacceptable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent cannot be allowed. The sandbox MUST NOT become second fiddle to Microtransactions! Hear, hear!
Isis Soryu Caldari Universitas Interimo Research	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:22:00 - [819] Originally by: noneofnine Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:22:02 Originally by: Lothros Andastar Protip: You can buy ships for Isk, which comes from Plex, so you can buy ships for Dollars anyway. Dead wrong. Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is unacceptable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent cannot be allowed. The sandbox MUST NOT become second fiddle to Microtransactions! THIS So much THIS
Demure Guise	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:24:00 - [820] Well said! Eve is about focus and personal effort, and if we allow this we'll have basement-dwelling incompetents being bought ships by Mummy and Daddy to keep junior happy.
noneofnine The Circle	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:24:00 - [821] BUMP "Through me the way is to the city dolent; Through me the way is to eternal dole; Through me the way among the people lost."
velox Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:33:00 - [822] Having played since 04 this is a sad turn of events. Kinda feels like EA are in the wings with the mass adoption of lets milk the players. The perfect scenario to introduce custom ships skins was already ingame in the form of the LP stores custom bpcs should have been made available there all be it at a very high cost. That would have upheld the effort = reward and the 'everything is made by the playerbase rule' As it stands from here I fear its all down hill. Always aiming one step beyond the edge.
Creetalor Caldari Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:37:00 - [823] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts. I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally. The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test. What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship. So what will we be looking at 84000 AUR? I mean considering the size and sophisticated level of the maschine furthermore considering I would not want to put any cheap maschine in my eye, I would not like to buy a flying junkyard. Who else would aggree to the reasonable price of 2 years playtime? ----------------------------------------
Ancy Denaries	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:43:00 - [824] I find it funny where people just fail at reading the blue-bar posts. They've said that the store cannot accept trade-ins or BPCs _RIGHT NOW_, but will later. They also stated that they won't launch the Scorpion until it does. So what is the problem here? ---- The Demigodess with a Conscience - An EVE IC Blog Originally by: CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
Demure Guise	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:46:00 - [825] Because they really tried this gambit of selling a ship to see how well it would go down with the userbase. I'm betting if everyone applauded it, even more ships would go on sale - permanently.
Nybbas Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:56:00 - [826] Originally by: Ancy Denaries I find it funny where people just fail at reading the blue-bar posts. They've said that the store cannot accept trade-ins or BPCs _RIGHT NOW_, but will later. They also stated that they won't launch the Scorpion until it does. So what is the problem here? Why don't you just shut up and start burning cars and looting buildings with the rest of us! DONT ASK WHY JUST SCREAM AND YELL AND WHINE.
Ancy Denaries	Posted - 2011.06.24 10:07:00 - [827] Originally by: Nybbas Originally by: Ancy Denaries I find it funny where people just fail at reading the blue-bar posts. They've said that the store cannot accept trade-ins or BPCs _RIGHT NOW_, but will later. They also stated that they won't launch the Scorpion until it does. So what is the problem here? Why don't you just shut up and start burning cars and looting buildings with the rest of us! DONT ASK WHY JUST SCREAM AND YELL AND WHINE. Because I don't live in Vancouver? :P ---- The Demigodess with a Conscience - An EVE IC Blog Originally by: CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
Zao Jin Perkone	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:16:00 - [828] The way to stop MT is not to buy it. If that doesn't work because of basement dwelling incompetent bottom feeders, unsub when it goes through. There are other games to play. The reason I play EvE is because CCP historically hasn't done stupid stuff like this, and despite absurd nerfbats, has a pretty good sandbox. No sandbox, no sub.
Zao Jin Perkone	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:22:00 - [829] CCP used to make fun of stuff like this. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=549 Now, after enabling AUR, you can just click on the ScorpionAnywhere! button and CCP will automatically bill your credit card for the transaction as part of the Customer Experience Process. No hassle, no fuss, instant Scorpion! As they continue developing AUR 2.0, you will almost assuredly be able to buy T3 BS's Only With AUR!(tm). With the release of AUR 3.0, even poor children from Zimbabwe will be able to afford a 10% bonus on their existing ships for a mere 2 or 3 USD. Just remember, Only With AUR!(tm). If you don't have the money, or don't want to spend it, you LOSE!
Zao Jin Perkone	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:24:00 - [830] Edited by: Zao Jin on 25/06/2011 15:25:03 Double Post
larry hotter bigpants	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:32:00 - [831] What I find insulting is that they think that having a NeX store that can't accept a trade in now and that we believe they will in the future is rather ****ed. Come one folks. The structure already exists int eh Loyalty point store structure to do just what is needed but they dont WANT trade ins in the Nex store other wise it would be there already. CCP thinks we are fools and will go along with any crap they say. People need to listen to teh ** they are not saying rather then the stuff they are saying. As CCP said. Our actions speak more than our words. The same is true for them.
Daemeon Fyral Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:36:00 - [832] Originally by: Ancy Denaries Originally by: Nybbas Originally by: Ancy Denaries I find it funny where people just fail at reading the blue-bar posts. They've said that the store cannot accept trade-ins or BPCs _RIGHT NOW_, but will later. They also stated that they won't launch the Scorpion until it does. So what is the problem here? Why don't you just shut up and start burning cars and looting buildings with the rest of us! DONT ASK WHY JUST SCREAM AND YELL AND WHINE. Because I don't live in Vancouver? :P HEY!!! I RESEMBLE THAT REMARK!!!
X Gallentius Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:36:00 - [833] Originally by: Callic Veratar I'm a little late to the party on this topic, but now that Incarna has actually come out, I wouldn't be surprised if the IWScorp needs 15000-20000 AUR. The idea that you'd need to spend $100 to get one IW Scorps kinda seems likely to me at this point (at least if they do a scorp for free week, and even if they don't). Nobody will spend $100 to purchase an Ishukone Scorpion (at least I hope not for their sake ). People will purchase PLEX and sell that PLEX to people with too much isk. It's those guys that will purchase the fancy scorpions. Maybe there's some idiot out there who used RL money to purchase a monocle, but more likely all 58 or so of those monocles purchased are guys with 10 billion isk readily available for lols.
Ripley Nostromo	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:47:00 - [834] Originally by: Evelgrivion Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is unacceptable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent cannot be allowed. The sandbox MUST NOT become second fiddle to Microtransactions! Corrected: Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is very desirable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent MUST be allowed. The sandbox will be quite fine with Microtransactions!
Press TabQuick	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:49:00 - [835] Originally by: Ripley Nostromo Originally by: Evelgrivion Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is unacceptable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent cannot be allowed. The sandbox MUST NOT become second fiddle to Microtransactions! Corrected: Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is very desirable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent MUST be allowed. The sandbox will be quite fine with Microtransactions! May I ask why it is very desirable and why it must be allowed? It does not seem to fit with the EVE player driven economy. Unless your point is that there are no BOTS, and no players left to mine.
StillBorn CrackBaby	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:05:00 - [836] Originally by: Soden Rah Not once did you really engage with us and say, hey you guys, it turns out making clothes and tattoos and custom paint jobs and quarters is more expensive than we thought... are you ok with a slower pace of development on them... or would you be prepared to pay more on your subscription... or vanity item only microtransactions.... Are you that delusional to believe ANY company is going to engage their customers in this fashion? I have no trouble telling my customers in my Company. "This was a business decision. I'm sorry you have decided to take your business elsewhere"... Loosely translated means "eat **** Sherlock...."
Xercodo Amarr Daj'Juntar	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:18:00 - [837] Originally by: Tippia Yes, it's a kludge, but if you absolutely have to get the ship in ASAP, this is the best way to do it. AUR store doesn't sell the ship ù it sells a newfangled Caldari XT-1 Nexus Chip (or whatever). The IW LP store (which we can open ever since Incursions did away with the need for having LP before you could actually make use of the LP Store window), in turn, sells IW Scorps for the price of 0 LP + 1+ XT-1 + 1+ Scorp. Or, hell, throw it in the CONCORD store if you want to make it more universally available. Ugly as hell, but a much better solution to spawning minerals out of nothing. yes that sounds PERFECT jury rig the LP store to do the trade in part for you -------------------------------------------------- The drake is a lie
Bizheep Minmatar Red Federation	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:33:00 - [838] CCP keep telling us that they are worried because there are too much ISK in the game. instead of adding aurum they should have just added vanity items that could be bought for isk and not for aurum (the only downgrade for this was RP reason like paint costing more than the ship) as isk sink
Admiral Valdore Perkone	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:38:00 - [839] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel If we need to go even slower, we can and will. No need to go slower, you guys are slow enough as it is. -Admiral Valdore
cynomass	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:46:00 - [840] Buy scorpion from market Trade scorpion+aurum for new designed one You still only have 1 scorpion Thats what they said in AT9 if you think otherwise, you are infact a ****** End of thread
Anon Forumalt6858	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:54:00 - [841] My problem is that selling an item outright violates one of the base tenets of Eve, that everything in created by the players. Conjuring a scorpion out of thin air is bull***. Now selling you the BPC for a ship or consuming a standard scorpion from your hangar and replacing it with the sparkle pony that is identical to all other scorpions would be fine. You'd still need to create the ship with resources or obtain it from the market via conventional means. It's the circle of Eve life. - His name was John Turbefield!*
zlt	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:59:00 - [842] Players who are willing to pay extra have always had an advantage over those who don't. Selling plexes and having multiple accounts CLEARLY gives you an advantage over players who would rather not pay for those things. And even without all that, it's impossible to stop people from buying and selling their characters and ISK on ebay. This is an age old problem with MMOs and theres never been a real solution. It's as good as it is. People buying their way to success is something that happens in real life as well as video games and you just have to deal with it.
Anon Forumalt6858	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:08:00 - [843] Originally by: zlt Players who are willing to pay extra have always had an advantage over those who don't. Selling plexes and having multiple accounts CLEARLY gives you an advantage over players who would rather not pay for those things. And even without all that, it's impossible to stop people from buying and selling their characters and ISK on ebay. This is an age old problem with MMOs and theres never been a real solution. It's as good as it is. People buying their way to success is something that happens in real life as well as video games and you just have to deal with it. I believe that the community is currently voicing a very convincing debate to this now. We've managed to accept things for how they were to this point, but there is a line in the sand that is severely in danger of being crossed. There is a difference between accepting what is unavoidable and accepting something that is outright sanctioned by the governing body of the game. - His name was John Turbefield! CCP: We are adults who wage economic, social, and tactical warfare on each other for fun. Don't **** with us.
OMGWTFResearch	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:28:00 - [844] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. While that does seem like vanity and impact to the market will be minimal assuming you fools at CCP marketing charge the expected 200 USD for it. The problem is again it is created out of thin air. So you can delay the ship until the system can support BPCs and/or Trade ins. It is not worth the loss of subscription revenue otherwise. Yet this still dosent answer the question. Will there ever be items sold that can affect gameplay? Ammo or ships perhaps?
Duchy Duke	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:29:00 - [845] Bump
Demon Azrakel Gallente Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:29:00 - [846] Originally by: OMGWTFResearch Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. While that does seem like vanity and impact to the market will be minimal assuming you fools at CCP marketing charge the expected 200 USD for it. The problem is again it is created out of thin air. So you can delay the ship until the system can support BPCs and/or Trade ins. It is not worth the loss of subscription revenue otherwise. Yet this still dosent answer the question. Will there ever be items sold that can affect gameplay? Ammo or ships perhaps? If it is not "Scorpion" on overview, it offers an advantage, if only in target calling.
Captain Bugsquash	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:32:00 - [847] If nothing else it'll give us a lot more mission players to track down.
Zachstar	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:36:00 - [848] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow In the hopes of clarifying matters, here is the timeline of what happened at the Summit. I drafted the minutes on the virtual goods session, and when this issue exploded I went back, reviewed the video recordings, and contacted Zinfandel to ask him to correct the record. During the session, Zinfandel presented the AUR-only Scorpion plan, which was to put it up for one week as a test, then take it down and reintroduce it later when the store could handle AUR+Scorpion -> Sparkle-Scorpion. CSM strongly advised waiting until the full store implementation. We did not like the AUR-only Sparkle-Scorpion idea, even for a week. In the evenings, after the formal sessions, we all go out to dinner and then to bars (much fun for me, since I don't drink), and there is lots of informal discussions. During this time, there apparently some conversations about the economic consequences of the 1-week sale, and some CSMs were apparently of the opinion that a 1-week sale of premium-priced Sparkle-Scorpions probably wouldn't hurt the industrialists who build regular Scorpions. But that is a separate issue from "this is a bad idea in the first place". And then, as has become clear, Zinfandel misremembered things, and a threadnaught was born. Best, Trebor CCP please comment on this.
Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:41:00 - [849] If you really dont see whats happening by now..... EVE is going to become FULL Cash Shop game. This is just their strategy for easing it in. Everything is going to be for sell.
Major Stallion The Dark Horses.	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:42:00 - [850] Originally by: CCP Zinfandel Let's wait a few months and see if the right thing to do is to keep waiting or roll it out. safe to say that this will be rolling out with the next portion of patches for incarna. Seeing as your annual revenue is about to take a ~1 million dollar hit due to lost subs, you're going to have to make that money back somehow, amirite?
OMGWTFResearch	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:43:00 - [851] Originally by: Demon Azrakel Originally by: OMGWTFResearch Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. While that does seem like vanity and impact to the market will be minimal assuming you fools at CCP marketing charge the expected 200 USD for it. The problem is again it is created out of thin air. So you can delay the ship until the system can support BPCs and/or Trade ins. It is not worth the loss of subscription revenue otherwise. Yet this still dosent answer the question. Will there ever be items sold that can affect gameplay? Ammo or ships perhaps? If it is not "Scorpion" on overview, it offers an advantage, if only in target calling. I think the bigger problem will be all the people saying "OMFG An expensive ass ship this dumbass brought to a fleetfight WHAAAAA!!!111!!" Just saying. I am talking about the idea of MT ammo and ships with an actual advantage which will show up in fleet fights.
Law Deschain	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:48:00 - [852] bump
Desert Ice78 Gryphon River Industries R-I-P	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:49:00 - [853] Edited by: Desert Ice78 on 25/06/2011 17:53:12 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel The CSM had one big question: They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. *So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation.* Quote: The bolded part is yet another bare-faced LIE Zinfandel. This is a copy and paste from that initial thread where you told the same lie and then had to back track and admit that the CSM had given no such blessing and instead had SERIOUS reservations about ANY direct sale of ships for cash. Lies, lies and more lies. And where would this all end up? With another internal email from Hilmar proclaming that 52 Scorpions had been bought and in this case CCP must focus on "more of what the players do and less of what they say," and so the temporary cash for ship would all of a sudden become permenent. As you have lied before, and contimue to lie again, we too will focus "less on what you say, and more on what you do." CCP: Consistency since 2003
Boobpatrol	Posted - 2011.06.25 18:10:00 - [854] Originally by: Vile rat Not going to read 14 pages but here's what I remember: Scorpions with fancy paint jobs are firmly in the "ok sure it doesn't impact gameplay aside from being some shiny thing that somebody might want to buy to customize their gameplay experience" category. You need to provide that hull first though so you're not sidestepping the producer market. I don't have an issue with MT that are purely cosmetic and as long as it does that then who cares. It has to do that though. I am 100% ok with scorpion + aur = sparkle scorpion and, stats wise, sparkle scorpion = regular scorpion + paint. Don't give the sparkle scorpion buffs and I think it'll be a great addition to the game. Think of how much more personal your ship would be. Think of all the tears to collect when you blow one up. It's unrealistic for every single scorpion in the known universe to have the exact same paintjob anyway. However, gives the sparkle scorpion a stat boost or use the "aur = ship/ubership" model and I have a huge problem. As a poor college student, I have just enough spare change to pay for my eve subscription. If you force me to pay extra for an ubership so that I can have any hope of being on par with real life Richy Rich, then you have lost me.
Sajad	Posted - 2011.06.25 18:15:00 - [855] THE PLAYERS WILL NOT BE SILENCED
Duchy Duke	Posted - 2011.06.25 18:18:00 - [856] Originally by: OMGWTFResearch Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many. Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.) It can't do trade-in's. It can't do BPCs. It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use. It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.) It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item. But it will get better. Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on. So I presented our dilemma to them. EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe. And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle. "Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?" The CSM had one big question: -Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in? (The answer is no.) They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation. Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out. If we need to go even slower, we can and will. While that does seem like vanity and impact to the market will be minimal assuming you fools at CCP marketing charge the expected 200 USD for it. The problem is again it is created out of thin air. So you can delay the ship until the system can support BPCs and/or Trade ins. It is not worth the loss of subscription revenue otherwise. Yet this still dosent answer the question. Will there ever be items sold that can affect gameplay? Ammo or ships perhaps?
larry hotter bigpants	Posted - 2011.06.25 18:24:00 - [857] Originally by: Desert Ice78 Edited by: Desert Ice78 on 25/06/2011 18:14:49 Originally by: CCP Zinfandel For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many...... snip... They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money. *So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation.* The bolded part is yet another bare-faced LIE Zinfandel. This is a copy and paste from that initial thread where you told the same lie and then had to back track and admit that the CSM had given no such blessing and instead had SERIOUS reservations about ANY direct sale of ships for cash. Lies, lies and more lies. And where would this all end up? With another internal email from Hilmar proclaiming that 52 Scorpions had been bought and in this case CCP must focus on "more of what the players do and less of what they say," and so the temporary cash for ship would all of a sudden become permanent. As you have lied before, and continue to lie again, we too will focus "less on what you say, and more on what you do." Everything CCP Zinfandel says is a bold faced lie. if someone could be so incompetent to keep their job after saying the wrong thing so many times they could only get a job at CCP......oh wait. He is a marketing manipulator. Didn't you see his smug ass talk at the AT9. He thinks he is better than you because he lies to you - all the time and you buy it. Soon your literally going to have to buy it.
Pytria Le'Danness	Posted - 2011.06.25 18:33:00 - [858] Originally by: Duchy Duke Yet this still dosent answer the question. Will there ever be items sold that can affect gameplay? Ammo or ships perhaps? Does a Scorpion affect game play? Yes, it does. So the answer to that question is "Yes". Selling the IW Scorpion might even influence the game as a normal Scorpion can not. Example: You have camped your enemy into a 0.0 station with no market and no factory that you know he has no ship in. You just killed his last ship, even though you're down to 10% structure. Seconds later he undocks in an Ishukone Watch Scorp and kills you off. That wax RL cash DOES change the outcome of a fight. Do I think it's crucial? No. The situation is too limited to hurt the game in the long run. But it sets a bad precedent. Why stop at Scorpions for RL cash? Getting Sov and a production chain is a hassle, let's give our customers the InstaTitan. That way people with too many rubles can carve themselves an empire out in 0.0! But that doesn't bother me that much. What bothers me most is the "Frak you, players" attitude that CCP shows right now. The "dev blog" travesty could have been said in more cordial words and spawned a much better understanding if it hadn't been half a paragraph of "Wait, you're annoyed at the monocles? Wait until you see us selling a jeans for $1000 in game!".
Acerba Agikor Amarr	Posted - 2011.06.25 20:13:00 - [859] The point CCP's head -------------------------------------------------- You can conceal sadism in technical language or flowery words, but it's still just as fun to watch.
noneofnine The Circle	Posted - 2011.06.27 07:35:00 - [860] Originally by: noneofnine Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:22:02 Originally by: Lothros Andastar Protip: You can buy ships for Isk, which comes from Plex, so you can buy ships for Dollars anyway. Dead wrong. Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is unacceptable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent cannot be allowed. The sandbox MUST NOT become second fiddle to Microtransactions! "Through me the way is to the city dolent; Through me the way is to eternal dole; Through me the way among the people lost."
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2011.06.27 07:49:00 - [861] Originally by: noneofnine Originally by: noneofnine Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:22:02 Originally by: Lothros Andastar Protip: You can buy ships for Isk, which comes from Plex, so you can buy ships for Dollars anyway. Dead wrong. Nothing in EVE, beyond PLEX itself, is created without consuming minerals that were acquired through game mechanics. It is unacceptable for CCP to introduce a ship to the economy that consumes neither minerals, or an otherwise identical ship, for nothing. This precedent cannot be allowed. The sandbox MUST NOT become second fiddle to Microtransactions! Actually, to the post of Evelgrivion, there are a few things in EvE that are created completely without player interaction, including ships. They aren't many, mind you, but they do happen. Take the LP store, for instance, where items NOT made by players but magically generated for players due to some mystical second-benefit mission running? Not that I disagree with his POINT, just that the facts need to be kept above board. Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze
RougeOperator	Posted - 2011.06.27 07:59:00 - [862] Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Actually, to the post of Evelgrivion, there are a few things in EvE that are created completely without player interaction, including ships. They aren't many, mind you, but they do happen. Take the LP store, for instance, where items NOT made by players but magically generated for players due to some mystical second-benefit mission running? Not that I disagree with his POINT, just that the facts need to be kept above board. Are you mentally handicapped? The LP store uses no Real money. You have to run missions spend time to earn the LP. And collect tags. And in game item is consumed for most conversions. Or you get a BPC that in turn consumes materials a player gathers to manufacture it. They are not magically generated, something is consumed in the process. Its not even in the same Planet let alone ballpark.
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop	Posted - 2011.06.27 08:02:00 - [863] Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon ... Actually, to the post of Evelgrivion, there are a few things in EvE that are created completely without player interaction, including ships. They aren't many, mind you, but they do happen. Take the LP store, for instance, where items NOT made by players but magically generated for players due to some mystical second-benefit mission running? Not that I disagree with his POINT, just that the facts need to be kept above board. all LP store items require LP, which are created only through time investment. atm, only thing i can remember that "spawns on demand" is rookie ship, and even that is one-shot (subsequent require action). ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon."
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2011.06.27 13:17:00 - [864] Originally by: Jagga Spikes Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon ... Actually, to the post of Evelgrivion, there are a few things in EvE that are created completely without player interaction, including ships. They aren't many, mind you, but they do happen. Take the LP store, for instance, where items NOT made by players but magically generated for players due to some mystical second-benefit mission running? Not that I disagree with his POINT, just that the facts need to be kept above board. all LP store items require LP, which are created only through time investment. atm, only thing i can remember that "spawns on demand" is rookie ship, and even that is one-shot (subsequent require action). Yes, LP store items require an investment. But many of the items there ARE created out of thin air, requiring no further input from other players. Nobody makes the implants or ammo you use. And to make matters worse, generally it's far more effective than what players can make. Officer gear and spawn loots are the same. Better-than-craftable gear spawned and injected into EvE's economy without the slightest touch of our industrial playerbase. That officer doesn't drop a BPC. And lets not forget missions which offer ships (basic, t1 frigs, sure, but whole ships nonetheless) as a reward. New player arcs, etc. As far as using RL money to purchase any NeX item, I can actually do the same as I do with buying officer mods: spend isk. Yes, somebody has to buy the plex in the first place (generally buying the plex for more isk themselves, else why would they sell it to me?) But more cash never has to leave MY wallet for me to get cool stuff. So, besides skipping the guy in 0.0 who's shooting spawns at belts for hours on end ... what's the issue with me buying officer-level gear from some CCP-hosted store? My arguments, actually, go against the NeX being out of our markets control. And, I'd rather any item need to be traded to get better items. Of course, that's just my opinion. Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze
Dariel Ash Caldari Foetus Mart	Posted - 2011.06.30 10:03:00 - [865] Shipspin for AUR?

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Dead wrong.

Dead wrong.

Dead wrong.

Dead wrong.

I got 99 dollah but the game ain't fun

Dead wrong.

Dead wrong.

Dead wrong.

Dead wrong.

Dead wrong.