I think we need some CCP Diagoras stats to tell us who has all the isk.

WH's are the problem...

WH's are the problem...

The only isk creation in WH space is from the NPC "books" that drop. All the salvage is bought by other characters, so no isk creation.

It should be a comfort to everyone concerned about inflation that the benevolent space guild Goonswarm Federation in conjunction with the greater CFC and the Honeybadger Coalition has destroyed over 3600 ships to the tune of over 300b including many carriers and even a super carrier today.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/UMI-KK/kills

Anyone else wanna contribute?

It should be a comfort to everyone concerned about inflation that the benevolent space guild Goonswarm Federation in conjunction with the greater CFC and the Honeybadger Coalition has destroyed over 3600 ships to the tune of over 300b including many carriers and even a super carrier today.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/UMI-KK/kills

Anyone else wanna contribute?

I hope you told VR you were shooting blues? I wish I could have been there but as a pubbie I feel I wouldn't have made it further than the first null gate

that isk doesn't actually leave the economy, it just switched hands.

that isk doesn't actually leave the economy, it just switched hands.

I wish I could have been there but as a pubbie I feel I wouldn't have made it further than the first null gate

Only the value of the loot drop changes hands, when you factor in that insuring caps is probably impossible and insuring t3's against loss is a waste of time you can bet the rest of the ISK is gone.

when you buy a ship, your paying isk for that asset. when that asset is destroyed, the isk you paid to the guy that sold you the ship, is still in his or her wallet. When you buy your replacement ship, that isk goes to whomever you paid for your new asset.

So the isk doesn't leave the eve economy.

So if I have a 200m smartbombing Scorpion and it gets destroyed, I get about 40m insurance. Let's say 10m in mods drop and someone scoops that up. Probably 5m or so in salvage. Where did the other 145m go?

I'm gonna let you think about what you just typed.

No, the ISK also changed hands and is still around. It now sits in the wallets of those who gathered and sold the materials and/or built and sold the components.

The fact that they weren't insured only ensures that no ISK was lost in the process.

No ISK is ever removed through the destruction of ships GÇö it is only added.

I'm gonna let you think about what you just typed.

I'm gonna let you think about what you just typed.

I'm gonna let you think about what you just typed.

If anyone remebers the state of the eve economy presentation by the good doctor, one problem he brought forth is that there is too much isk flowing into the economy. I have a potential solution that might also help with the large blocks controlling most of null sec.

Sov bills are paid every 2 weeks on systems with tcu's turned on, the more systems you "own" the more you pay. What about the membership? What I propose is a fee issued by some NPC corp for some reason like administration fees (or whatever BS CCP decides). The size of the fee would be based on the number of members withing the alliance. Small alliances would hardly notice the charge, extrememly large alliances would have fees in the billions per week.



weekly fee schedule:


up to 10 members 10k isk
up to 100 members 100k isk
up to 1000 members 1 million isk
up to 2000 members 10 million isk
up to 3000 members 100 million isk
up to 4000 members 1 billion isk
up to 5000 members 10 billion isk
up to 6000 members 100 billion isk
up to 7000 members 1 trillion isk

and so on




I'm not sure of the numbers of alliances out there, but this should help reduce the isk in the economy from the entities that have, on average, the most isk.

This could be a conflict driver. I can see some mega alliances saving money by spliting into smaller parts. There might be some in fighting or battles between alliances that would open the door to fresh blood in null sec sov.

Just a thought. Let the discussion and trolling begin

I'm gonna let you think about what you just typed.

I'm still thinking about what he typed and I still don't get it.

If I sell you a ship for 50M ISK, I have your 50M in my wallet. If you ship explodes no ISK leaves the system.
If you insure your ship with 5M and get a 30M payout, 25M are printed out of nothing.

Ok here we go: on it's own- isk has very little value aside from it's purchasing power. Insurance payouts are determined arbitrarily from the base mineral value of a ships hull. All ships and and modules are created from minerals. Minerals are the building blocks of New Eden.

Regardless of how I aquired said hull, it always will have a base mineral value, thereby- destroying it is the same as if I came along and blew up your jetcan full of minerals. You just lost that commodity.

I bow down to Tippias superior knowledge, I assumed that lost uninsured ship = lost isk

If anyone remebers the state of the eve economy presentation by the good doctor, one problem he brought forth is that there is too much isk flowing into the economy. I have a potential solution that might also help with the large blocks controlling most of null sec.

Sov bills are paid every 2 weeks on systems with tcu's turned on, the more systems you "own" the more you pay. What about the membership? What I propose is a fee issued by some NPC corp for some reason like administration fees (or whatever BS CCP decides). The size of the fee would be based on the number of members withing the alliance. Small alliances would hardly notice the charge, extrememly large alliances would have fees in the billions per week.



weekly fee schedule:


up to 10 members 10k isk
up to 100 members 100k isk
up to 1000 members 1 million isk
up to 2000 members 10 million isk
up to 3000 members 100 million isk
up to 4000 members 1 billion isk
up to 5000 members 10 billion isk
up to 6000 members 100 billion isk
up to 7000 members 1 trillion isk

and so on




I'm not sure of the numbers of alliances out there, but this should help reduce the isk in the economy from the entities that have, on average, the most isk.

This could be a conflict driver. I can see some mega alliances saving money by spliting into smaller parts. There might be some in fighting or battles between alliances that would open the door to fresh blood in null sec sov.

Just a thought. Let the discussion and trolling begin

that would be nice, but it's a "tax" on alliances.

I'd be perfectly fine with that. I'm not the one paying the fee, the alliance would be. Simularly how an alliance is currently billed 2 million a month per corp.

If the OP feels that there is too much ISK in the game he should failfit some ludicrously expensive ships with insanely expensive modules and try and get through Tama or Old Man Star with them intact.

There'd have to be some tinkering, but I'm sure it's totally within CCP's capacity to arrange it so pass along the one bil a week cost per capita directly onto the NPC corp member. NPC corp management must pay their bills somehow, perhaps they could just set bounty taxes to 100% forever, along with NPC corp-owned stations setting refining tax to 100% as well. Totally possible.

I mean, large alliances are a problem as you say, and NPC corps are the largest alliances in the game. Therefore its only right that NPC corps and their members eat the brunt of the 'alliance membership fee'.

I'm not sure if bounty taxes could cover the 1 bil per NPC corp member fee.

Perhaps they need something like a 200-300% bounty tax on their ratting in order to come up with the figure.

Whatever it takes to solve the isk injection, no matter the cost (onto NPC corps).

Send all the risk to me. That will solve the problem.

just to clearify, it's not a bill per member, it's a fee based on the number of members in the alliance.

Right, and (quick check) Caldari Provisions for example has 132,381 members.
I was running off the assumption that it had 10K members.
So according to your proposed scaling system, dividing the alliance fee per NPC corp member (100 trillion (or 10^132 if we're scaling it up an order of magnitude per 1000 members actually)/136831), it'd actually work out to be more around a fine of 10 billion per week, not 1 billion like I said, fee per put upon the NPC corp. Since the NPC corps have to pay these fees, so it's only fitting that they'd adjust their stations' refining and bounty taxes onto their members (like any other corp or alliance) to reflect their astronomical overhead and pay their bills

Sell pirate hats for 1 trillion isk. Solved.

Hell yeah, I want a robotic parrot too.

Like that robot owl in clash of the titans

There's NOT to much ISK in Eve. You do realize any CCP programmer can add or remove ISK with a few lines of code?

There's NOT to much ISK in Eve. You do realize any CCP programmer can add or remove ISK with a few lines of code?

lets just start charging npc alts 1m per post on forums.

Want a huge ISK sink? let us paint our ships, inject gambling into the game, pole dancers, highsec legal drugs like quafe redbull or quafe bath salts, maybe add ship crews that can be upgraded with ISK. Anything that goes to the game and not another player.

Reduce faucets not create more sinks. Increasing alliance bills is a stupid idea and depending on what the ranges are you will just have people splinter off to avoid the higher bill if its too much.

Where did the other 145m go?

How about hiring NPCs to aid players?

Can't beat that player trashing you in local in a 1v1? Your pimped out carebear-mobile not the solo pwn machine you expected? Hire a NPC Command Ship to provide boosts for just a million per minute!

Still getting your ass handed to you? Your opponent called in friends that you don't have?
Hire a NPC Logistics Ship to repair you for just ten million per minute!

One of your enemies lit a cyno and you got hotdropped? Need that little extra to solo PvP in your Moros?
Hire a NPC Titan to doomsday your enemies for just a hundred million!

Just think of the possibilities!

...
Exactly how would they accomplish that?

I'm not really sure whether insurance is an ISK faucet or an ISK sink. If nobody spent any ISK getting their ships insured then yes, it would be an ISK faucet because there's ISK entering the economy whenever someone gets their ship blown up. On the other hand if there are lots of pilots ensuring their ships beyond the default level but not getting those ships blown up at all, it's an ISK sink since the money for insurance is paid to an NPC entity.

Possible ideas to reduce ISK in the economy:
Remove insurance payouts unless the pilot has explicitly ensured their ship
Reduce NPC bounties in L4 missions, nerf vanguard payouts by ~5%
Raise NPC corp taxes to 20-25%
Change refining collaterals in highsec stations into monetary fees reduced by NPC corp standings

you forgot :

remove moon goo
remove bigger roids in 0.0

you forgot :

remove moon goo
remove bigger roids in 0.0
remove lvl 5 missions
remove bigger bounty npc ships in low and null

edit:
and if there are indeed so many botters in EvE ,ban them ,biomass or crucify their avatars on the Jita and Amarr monuments

none of these create isk
tl;dr: you are dumb

[
no wanting to make 0.0 and low sec more interesting by nerfing high is dumb

Now and then ,you see quotes from people that the players make EvE as it is right now
i guess you got what you wanted, so live with it

I'm not really sure whether insurance is an ISK faucet or an ISK sink.

lvl 5 missions: Okay, I don't really care about those, but I seriously doubt they contribute to inflation all that much

look man I know you is a dumb but if you read the OP, you'll notice we're talking about making 0.0 and high interesting by nerfing large alliances

going by the OP's proposal, that means each NPC corp member gets fined "7.55 unquadragintillion" a week. Do you think that is sufficient?

They basically need to do 2 things.

1) use Dust 514 as a big sink where we pay Dust players to kill enemy planets for isk. They use the isk to buy NPC goods in the store.

or

2) rise Hi-sec taxes for more of an isk sink and to promote low and null sec.

so raising taxes would promote Low and Null sec ?

really?

about the OP proposal anything to bring down the size of an alliance and maybe (i said maybe) make Null more attractive to smaller corps and /or alliances ,i am all for it.

i love this thread

Why not just increase the market tax from the current 1% to 21%?
That should take out allot of isk from the game, since there is allot of trading going on.
Or if 21% is to high, 10% trade tax then?

Hey if there was less isk in the economy, people would have less money and wouldn't want to fly expensive ships for PvP because they would be too shiny and precious. Everyone would go back to the old days when they used rookie ship fleets and it took us a month of hard grinding to save up for a Bantam.

Ok here we go: on it's own- isk has very little value aside from it's purchasing power. Insurance payouts are determined arbitrarily from the base mineral value of a ships hull. All ships and and modules are created from minerals. Minerals are the building blocks of New Eden.

Regardless of how I aquired said hull, it always will have a base mineral value, thereby- destroying it is the same as if I came along and blew up your jetcan full of minerals. You just lost that commodity.

So if I have a 200m smartbombing Scorpion and it gets destroyed, I get about 40m insurance. Let's say 10m in mods drop and someone scoops that up. Probably 5m or so in salvage. Where did the other 145m go?

Hey if there was less isk in the economy, people would have less money and wouldn't want to fly expensive ships for PvP because they would be too shiny and precious. Everyone would go back to the old days when they used rookie ship fleets and it took us a month of hard grinding to save up for a Bantam.

Or we could cut ever single number related to isk (bounties, wallet amounts, buy orders, sell orders, contracts, and everything else) in half. Nothing would change effectively, but there'd be much less isk in the economy. (Cut non-percentage taxes in half as well, i.e. 1m per day or whatever it is for corps and wardecs)

what I propose was not just about reducing the isk in the economy, it's also a conflict driver. It encourages large mega alliances to regroup into smaller groups. Smaller groups tend to be easier to unseat from their long established "homes". It might open the door to some smaller alliances that are looking to own some space.

If you want to address isk inflation, you'd need to look at NPC bounties. Anything else is peanuts.

The answer to the OP's proposal is "no". The problem isn't nullsec alliances with too much money, the problem is too much isk flowing into highsec.

So if I have a 200m smartbombing Scorpion and it gets destroyed, I get about 40m insurance. Let's say 10m in mods drop and someone scoops that up. Probably 5m or so in salvage. Where did the other 145m go?

I think we need some CCP Diagoras stats to tell us who has all the isk.

I don't know, a high NPC corp tax that encourages players to get out of NPC corps and into player owned corporations and alliances could be an interesting mechanic.

No it doesn't. You could blast the alliance system entirely out, as long as there's an ability to set individual standings and unified coms via jabber/teamspeak what have you it won't affect anything.

At most it will add complication.

I hope you told VR you were shooting blues? I wish I could have been there but as a pubbie I feel I wouldn't have made it further than the first null gate

look man I know you is a dumb but if you read the OP, you'll notice we're talking about making 0.0 and low interesting by nerfing large alliances

going by the OP's proposal, that means each NPC corp member gets fined "7.55 unquadragintillion" a week. Do you think that is sufficient?

no wanting to make 0.0 and low sec more interesting by nerfing high is dumb

so raising taxes would promote Low and Null sec ?

really?

*cough* nullsec bounties *cough*

Detecting a stealth "dumb sized blues list" fix post here so that's the point of my reply:

Remove the ability to set standings. BANG

Standings should only exist between individuals and NPC mission agents

Detecting a stealth "dumb sized blues list" fix post here so that's the point of my reply:

Remove the ability to set standings. BANG

Standings should only exist between individuals and NPC mission agents

Detecting a stealth "dumb sized blues list" fix post here so that's the point of my reply:

Remove the ability to set standings. BANG

Standings should only exist between individuals and NPC mission agents

So if I have a 200m smartbombing Scorpion and it gets destroyed, I get about 40m insurance. Let's say 10m in mods drop and someone scoops that up. Probably 5m or so in salvage. Where did the other 145m go?

Agenda already spotted. They're thinking of the typical 10,000 member alliance, right?

You never had a Scorpion made out of 200m. You had a Scorpion that someone would be willing to trade you 200m isk for.

When the Scorpion gets destroyed, the isk still remains, what you lost is the approximate value of 200m, which means you've just caused inflation as now less value represents the same amount of isk.

Even worse is if you insured the ship, now you've added the insurance payout into the system, causing even more inflation.

The good news is your loss of a ship means you will probably want to get a new one. This causes demand and reduces inflation. As long as inflation caused by destruction and demand caused by destruction are equal, there is a net of zero inflation. Once you include insurance pay out, more isk is entering the system which does cause inflation as there is now more money to represent the same amount of value.

What if they added npc sold ship? I know it would reduce the number of profitable industry market to a point but it would bleed isk out of the game right?

What if they added npc sold ship? I know it would reduce the number of profitable industry market to a point but it would bleed isk out of the game right?

Thus endeth the lesson.

Tippia, Do you think EVE would be a better game if the ISK faucets did exactly balance the sinks, and there was a fixed amount of ISK in-game (fixed amount per active subscription)? You could easily achieve this by scaling faucets back dynamically.... I guess the question is does inflation actually hurt Eve in the first place....

Ship pianting, CQ decorations, etc.

You never had a Scorpion made out of 200m. You had a Scorpion that someone would be willing to trade you 200m isk for.

When the Scorpion gets destroyed, the isk still remains, what you lost is the approximate value of 200m, which means you've just caused inflation as now less value represents the same amount of isk.

Even worse is if you insured the ship, now you've added the insurance payout into the system, causing even more inflation.

The good news is your loss of a ship means you will probably want to get a new one. This causes demand and reduces inflation. As long as inflation caused by destruction and demand caused by destruction are equal, there is a net of zero inflation. Once you include insurance pay out, more isk is entering the system which does cause inflation as there is now more money to represent the same amount of value.

Agenda already spotted. They're thinking of the typical 10,000 member alliance, right?

This would put the economy as a whole on a curve, and not necessarily an even one.

For one person to have more, others would need to have less.

The important factor to consider, is that the more successful a group of players becomes, the more financially squeezed must be a set of counterparts for them. Quite possibly not an equal number of people on either side, with one pilot able to have several times over the amount of ISK averaged into the economy per account.

This is bad.

By placing ISK limits on one side, and a more successful player on the other, they can be pushed into a level of play experience below the threshold needed to keep most players happy and subscribed to the game.

So basically a large alliance like Goonswarm would have to break itself up into numerous smaller alliances that still held the same aggregate space and functioned together exactly like GS does today?

Also there are no giant blocks controlling nullsec space. The closest you can find to giant blocks controlling space is brick squad and they're lego guys so those are small blocks. Also they might not have space anymore-- I don't even know, it's not my job to keep track of this stuff.

e: you should start a Duplo alliance. Bigger blocks!