The point is (just because you dont seem to get it, again and again!), Gallentean pilots would not be happy if they had no working PvP medium and large hull ship with hybrids.

Anything that goes 1m/s faster than explosion velocity speed tanks, HULK sure moves faster than 70 m/s (untrained). Torp's explosion velocities near Mining Barge velocity.

Gallentean pilots dont have any working medium and large hulls with hybrids . . .

EDIT:
Ok, maybe the Talos . . . but really thats it . . . including serpentis faction ships . . . none of them can ever get in range . . . ever!

However, having to equip rigs or implants to make your weapons hit in class is not appropriate (for ANY weapon system).

As for the changes that are listed, I don't think the range nerf or base damage nerf are uncalled for. However, having to equip rigs or implants to make your weapons hit in class is not appropriate (for ANY weapon system).

Cool, because it won't be the case (and it isn't with HML).

And no, HML are not OP because they are the only working missile system, they are OP because of their inherent stats and position in the missile hierarchy. They don't *have to fill* the role of all the others, they just fill it. For the others to live, you first need to "kill" HML and put them to their place.

A few pages before I pointed out how HML in a Drake have less damage than medium long range turrets, if all ships fit 2 damage mods.

Arguing that long range turrets have more dps at close range than HMLs is like arguing that a damnation does more dps than a vulture.

That's not what they are for, and not what they should be balanced around.

You do all realize that the HML system used to be the only medium missile system right? And thats its current "balance" was based on that. It had to fill the role of both long and short range.

Missile systems were originally balanced as long range slow firing small target hitting and short range fast firing large target hitting. With the HML being the only system at the time they put it in the middle and used T2 ammo to change its role between the two. Then they released the HAMLs and made some changes to HML (not enough to change its do all role though)

As for the changes that are listed, I don't think the range nerf or base damage nerf are uncalled for. However, having to equip rigs or implants to make your weapons hit in class is not appropriate (for ANY weapon system).

To balance small target hitting I would scrap the current explosion velocity and explosion radius and create "Missile Tracking" and use a "Missile Sensor Strength". "Missile Tracking" would work similarly to turret tracking, if the small ship is moving around too fast the missile won't be able to hit it. "Missile Sensor Strength" would work similarly to Turret Signature Resolution.

You would end up getting the "crappy" hits, the misses, and you should also get the critical hits.

Yes, this would mean they would work the same, but with flight time. Right now missiles are popular because they have consistent and predictable damage (especially in PvE) and have "some" damage application at any range they can hit at.

And then everyone again forgot the HAM buff which will keep Drakes in the game at shorter ranges and also produce actually effective Caracals. And also Sacrilege buff.

I am looking forward to my Sacrilege being useful again!

I'm actually not sure how this will effect my Tengu though.

510 DPS at 99KM Range currently.. I'm guessing that will drop to something like 300DPS and 50KM range?

I am looking forward to my Sacrilege being useful again!

I'm actually not sure how this will effect my Tengu though.

510 DPS at 99KM Range currently.. I'm guessing that will drop to something like 300DPS and 50KM range?

iirc, as this thread is now sooooo looooong, the nerf on HMs is 25% range and 10% damage.

So with your baseline example, wouldn't that be something like 74km and 460 dps if fittings remained the same?

edit - damn was i really that distracted that it took me more than 4 minutes to post this and get beaten to the punch by MIrple

Indeed. Also I guess simple math is hard for missile chuckers they have gotten to used to press F1 receive bacon.

And you keep ignoring the 40% dps advantage at range. And your only solution is different range ammo ? So missiles are more like turrets ?

Let me tell you your idea of balance is bad. Balance is not one thing OP somewhere, and another OP somewhere else.

Balance is turret have better damage at short range but less damage application whereas missiles have better damage at long range with more damage application (and missiles do have better damage application when you consider long range turrets).

Missiles != turrets.

PS : HML shines at long range, but today's HML shine also at long short range.

some stuff

- Merlin
- Vulture
- Rokh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aX60biCE4
- Naga
- Ferox
- Harpy

Minmatar or "Winmatar" like you say it isn't that good when a single T2 cruiser can completely disable "godly" Hurricane.

I am missing your point...

In any case, you listed an odd selection of hulls. The easiest way to tell how good a ship or weapon actually is, is to consider how many people regret training for something else instead. No one has ever said, "Caldari Battleships ROCK! I would gladly trade my Mael, Phoon, and Pest for that Caldari Rohk!" or "Why did I train for this stupid Sleipner when I could have flown the Vulture!" The same applies to weapons. You have never, even once, seen someone unhappy because they trained for Arties instead of Cruise Missiles. There are probably few Caldari PvP pilot in the game that don't wish they had their Caldari ship and weapons SP to invest elsewhere.

This is what I would like to see changed.

The players of other races might well complain, all the races have their issues, but NONE of these players look at the Caldari and wish they had chosen to waste their training time there instead. If things were balanced you could randomly select any class of ships and weapons in the game, and have a hard time saying which was the best and which the worst. You could just pick a ship or weapon from any class and make a good argument that it was the best. None of this: "Well, you know, you could maybe USE it if you had to... have you thought about cross training?"

Noemi,

I just got some numbers thought I would share them.

From an EFT that had the revelation proposed stats ported over

HML - CN Scourge - Drake Maxed skilled - 2x BCU

Explosion velocity 121
Explosion radius 105
Velocity - 6450
DPS - 332 @ 62.9K

HAM - CN Scourge - Drake Maxed skilled - 2x BCU

Explosion velocity 151
Explosion radius 93
Velocity - 3375
DPS - 462 @ 20.3K

The numbers look good to me the only thing I would say needs to be changed IMO is the speed of HAMS increased and the flight time decreased.

I can post the new Raven Torp Numbers as well if you like

Mirple

The players of other races might well complain, all the races have their issues, but NONE of these players look at the Caldari and wish they had chosen to waste their training time there instead. If things were balanced you could randomly select any class of ships and weapons in the game, and have a hard time saying which was the best and which the worst. You could just pick a ship or weapon from any class and make a good argument that it was the best. None of this: "Well, you know, you could maybe USE it if you had to... have you thought about cross training?"

Seriously guys. HAMs are going to get easier to fit. If you want, try to put a few on your Tengus, too. Yeah, they'll have far less range. But you'll notice that you're doing obscene amounts of damage. And you've already still got some pretty good tank. Why not give it a try? It might not be that bad.

I never mentioned cross training, but it is a worthwhile discussion. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with balance because again, you cant balance around the noobs with 20,000,000 SP, you have to balance around all the bitter vets with > 100,000,000 SP

Allow me to illustrate: if they said "missiles and drones are two weapon systems that take 2x longer than everything else to train, so we're going to reward the players who train for them by making their weapons 20% better than the other weapons" what would be the problem with that?
Eventually everyone would just be flying missiles and drones, and the bitter vets who have tons of SP would be flying them tomorrow!

The game must be balanced outside of the training time it takes to get anything. This is also the reason why cost is not a balancing factor. This is how we got into the titan/super carrier disaster that we have now; they said since they cost so much and take so long to train for, they should **** everything in their way . . . it turns out that doesnt work for balancing.