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Laser Nerf: Bye Bye Apoc, Zealot, Sacrilege, Prophecy, Punisher etc

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Lallante	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:01:00 - [1] Noone could deny that Megapulses were unbalanced. Its difficult to argue that a gankageddon wasnt wrong. The changes proposed seem fair at first glance, and are definately so when dealing with a megapulse on a geddon. The changes however, are based on a premise of NO SHIP BONUSS. Every Amarr ship, has ONE bonus (50% less Cap use is totally irrelevant, it might as well be part of the stats for the gun, CAP conservation really isnt all that important on amarr ships). Every other race has TWO Bonus's. Before this change, most frig and cruiser amarr vessels were not dominating overly with pulses. The reason? The other ships got 2 bnus's so that countered for it. A Thorax can eat a Maller, A Deimos can chew up a sacrilege. The frigs are balanced to an extent, if anything Amarr suffer from gimped slot layout (mmm 1 midslot). I come now, to my baby, the apoc. At the moment, I use Tachyon IIs. I rely on my range and damage to win. I would say I am balanced with a similar level pilot in a Tempest, Raven or even Thron (although Hybrids need like a 50% less cap change). With the proposed changes, the Apoc, with its total lack of offensive Bonus's, will be massively outclassed at long range. At Short range, with the Megapulse, its lack of tracking or ROF bonus's will also render it **ty. People go on about Megapulses tracking? WTF? Its HALF that of the Highest Damage Blaster!! At long range, it was fine, but now with the MEgapulse as a short range gun, its going to be abysmal. Clearly change was needed, but ovverrelliance on misleading graphs have left us Amarr pilots **, with the exception of the geddon which is now closer inline with the others (but will still suffer if using MPs because of tracking). Cheers. Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa**
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:06:00 - [2] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 03/03/2005 15:07:11 You'll still see Amarrian ships after the changes, but we'll back to the situation where nobody uses lasers. To be honest, when I get home tonight, I'm going to stop training med beam specialisation, and start working on improving either my projectile or hybrid skills. Beam lasers were in no way overpowered before, so nerfing crystals will make them almost useless. What people seem to have forgotten is that the apalling fall-off distance for lasers means that they will struggle in long distance engagements, but the decent damage of radio crystals compensated for this. Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori
TEH FL4ME	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:12:00 - [3] Edited by: TEH FL4ME on 03/03/2005 15:13:46 This change was always gonna happen crying over spilled milk and all that..... EDIT : Beams 4tw?
Hakera	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:14:00 - [4] didnt really need another thread on this tbh Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Emeline Cabernet	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:15:00 - [5] Edited by: Emeline Cabernet on 03/03/2005 15:15:50 Could we get the missile nerf now?? LIKE NOW!?! and to the tards.. you're only crying because you get spanked every day.
Weston McArthur	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:16:00 - [6] Mmmmm drama.
Lallante	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:17:00 - [7] Its so insanely shortsighted. HOW can CCP consider a change of this magnitude without taking ship bonus's, Tracking, slot layouts and all the rest into account. I find it nearly impossible to imagine an Apoc loadout using lasers that could break a close range BSs tank OR track it when it gets close with these changes. Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
Damajink	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:19:00 - [8] Yep, I'm gonna go buy some 1400s for my Apoc now since Lasers are gonna be pretty much useless. Megapulse totally outclassed in short range by blasters and autocannons with Tachs being rubbish at range due to Radio nerf. Thanks CCP
Papermate	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Lallante Its so insanely shortsighted. HOW can CCP consider a change of this magnitude without taking ship bonus's, Tracking, slot layouts and all the rest into account. I find it nearly impossible to imagine an Apoc loadout using lasers that could break a close range BSs tank OR track it when it gets close with these changes. Yes tis what I think exactly. No1 uses a tempest and his 800mm guns without at least lvl 3-4 BS. "Master of Papercuts"
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:21:00 - [10] The geddon is in no way affected, not even by tracking. It just means that at the ranges its currently used at you'll be doing slightly less damage. It still has greater range than blasters, and therefore lesser tracking. The MP can still reach out and touch you at 50km or more so is in no way a short range gun. The damage changes of the long range crystals mean that guns like the Tach are MORE inline with their counterparts (1400 and 425) except that it may not have the range of the 1400's. Radio crystals were doing too much damage previously. If anything its you whos over reacting, I think. Claiming that we're ****** is a little silly.

Lallante	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:24:00 - [11] Quote: The damage changes of the long range crystals mean that guns like the Tach are MORE inline with their counterparts (1400 and 425) except that it may not have the range of the 1400's. Radio crystals were doing too much damage previously INLINE, BEFORE BONUS's is the point. You have to be a tard to tank your ship at the highest end of play (if you are focus fired on, you die). All the best amarr bonus's are to tanking. Go figure. Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
Noriath	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:25:00 - [12] Edited by: Noriath on 03/03/2005 15:26:03 Originally by: Lallante (50% less Cap use is totally irrelevant, it might as well be part of the stats for the gun, CAP conservation really isnt all that important on amarr ships). That statement is so wrong... Those cap bonuses are exactly what makes Lasers so ridiculous on Amarr ships. Lasers should use up a lot of cap so you have to find a balance between tanking and shooting. Up until now Amarr was the only race that didn't have to, because it could just shoot and tank (Better then everyone else on top of that) at the same time with no problem.
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:27:00 - [13] Simply put, change the 10% cap bonus on the Apoc back to 5%, and give them either a 5% ROF bonus or a 5% damage bonus. This would put it back on par with other ships since they all have some similar type of bonus. Amarrian ships didn't need it before as long as they used Megas. With this change it would keep all ships, across all races in a greater balance. FYI- a rof bonus could be scary, but I listed it becuase that would keep with the bonus on the Arma and provide some sort of continuity of bonus types across racial shiptypes, something that CCP seems prone to do. Nyxus
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:28:00 - [14] Originally by: Lallante Quote: The damage changes of the long range crystals mean that guns like the Tach are MORE inline with their counterparts (1400 and 425) except that it may not have the range of the 1400's. Radio crystals were doing too much damage previously INLINE, BEFORE BONUS's is the point. You have to be a tard to tank your ship at the highest end of play (if you are focus fired on, you die). All the best amarr bonus's are to tanking. Go figure. So the fact that a Tach on an Apoc is inline with a 1400 on a Tempest is a problem? Perhaps I'm completely missing what you're trying to say... And the idea of tanking versus "higest end of play" is a bit daft. How you define high end play may not be how others define it. Fleet versus solo/small group has nothing to do with this discussion.
Hakera	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:29:00 - [15] Originally by: Lallante I find it nearly impossible to imagine an Apoc loadout using lasers that could break a close range BSs tank OR track it when it gets close with these changes. if your talking long range vs long range, a 1400mm II gank setup cant do it either vs an apoc with tach II's Short range, without killing the apoc tank with nos, the 800mm cant cause enough damage Bit of an overreaction tbh, all the dps stats on sisi dont show the end of lasers (maybe you should try it) but they do show less of an effective range for them so they really are med range guns which still covers 90% of engagement ranges. For 100k+ battles which I assume your interested in, the tach/beams were able to keep up and outdamage the 1400mm or 425mm rail. Ive been hit for 1000hp+ at 100k by tach's while not even inflicting similar damage because im firing from falloff wheras the apoc with tachs is firing in optimal. Lasers arnt meant to be the 'i win' button. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Lallante	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:30:00 - [16] Originally by: Noriath Edited by: Noriath on 03/03/2005 15:26:03 Originally by: Lallante (50% less Cap use is totally irrelevant, it might as well be part of the stats for the gun, CAP conservation really isnt all that important on amarr ships). That statement is so wrong... Those cap bonuses are exactly what makes Lasers so ridiculous on Amarr ships. Lasers should use up a lot of cap so you have to find a balance between tanking and shooting. Up until now Amarr was the only race that didn't have to, because it could just shoot and tank (Better then everyone else on top of that) at the same time with no problem. In PvP there is no such balance. NOONE runs out of cap in fleet combat, you run out of structure or you run out of ammo, NEVER Cap. I would LOVE to pay 2x the cap for lasers if I got a 5% per level dmg bonus on the apoc. If you think those 2 bonus's are equivilent, can we swap out some of the dmg bonus's on your ships too? Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
Damajink	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:32:00 - [17] Originally by: mahhy The geddon is in no way affected, not even by tracking. It just means that at the ranges its currently used at you'll be doing slightly less damage. It still has greater range than blasters, and therefore lesser tracking. The MP can still reach out and touch you at 50km or more so is in no way a short range gun. The damage changes of the long range crystals mean that guns like the Tach are MORE inline with their counterparts (1400 and 425) except that it may not have the range of the 1400's. Radio crystals were doing too much damage previously. If anything its you whos over reacting, I think. Claiming that we're ****** is a little silly. But Radio crystals do nothing but EM damage.....projectiles and rails do other types of damage too. Since Em resistance is 60% base on armour, don't you think that nerfing radios makes long range pretty much useless?
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Noriath Edited by: Noriath on 03/03/2005 15:26:03 Originally by: Lallante (50% less Cap use is totally irrelevant, it might as well be part of the stats for the gun, CAP conservation really isnt all that important on amarr ships). That statement is so wrong... Those cap bonuses are exactly what makes Lasers so ridiculous on Amarr ships. Lasers should use up a lot of cap so you have to find a balance between tanking and shooting. Up until now Amarr was the only race that didn't have to, because it could just shoot and tank (Better then everyone else on top of that) at the same time with no problem. i wonder about projectile & missile cap usage
Xavier Cardde	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:37:00 - [19] yep crap changes... and of course nerfs instead of buffs.... what do you expect from CCP except crap changes? buff the effing hybrids and howwies instead of dumping nerfs...CCP nerfs for 2 years and still no balence... maybe they should rethink the logic of the nerf damn it.
Toran Mehtar	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:39:00 - [20] OMGWTFBBQ! Amarr might no longer be the best at every range in every fight ! 'Sploit ! /sarcasm.

Xavier Cardde	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:40:00 - [21] cant.....stand.......this.....idiocy... yay nerf ranges and as usual they over-nerf their target and make weapons associated with their nerf USELESS... I SMELL STUPIDITY
Xavier Cardde	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:46:00 - [22] Originally by: Toran Mehtar OMGWTFBBQ! Amarr might no longer be the best at every range in every fight ! 'Sploit ! /sarcasm. THE RAVEN, that god awful thing outclasses amarr at any range under 50km. nerf the missiles if we are soooooo nerf happy.
Larno	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:49:00 - [23] For once I have to agree with Lallente. Amarr ships are pretty balanced apart from the 7/8 Heatsink II setups that people use. I put this down almost entirely to the fact that Amarr ships have 1 completely crap bonus. Graphs are very misleading. They do not show things like the ship bonuses. For example, whenever you see a projectile vs laser graph you might aswell add 20% to the RoF of the projectile.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 15:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Damajink Originally by: mahhy The geddon is in no way affected, not even by tracking. It just means that at the ranges its currently used at you'll be doing slightly less damage. It still has greater range than blasters, and therefore lesser tracking. The MP can still reach out and touch you at 50km or more so is in no way a short range gun. The damage changes of the long range crystals mean that guns like the Tach are MORE inline with their counterparts (1400 and 425) except that it may not have the range of the 1400's. Radio crystals were doing too much damage previously. If anything its you whos over reacting, I think. Claiming that we're ****** is a little silly. But Radio crystals do nothing but EM damage.....projectiles and rails do other types of damage too. Since Em resistance is 60% base on armour, don't you think that nerfing radios makes long range pretty much useless? Not really. It all depends on how the person you're fighting is setup. In a pretty standard-ish shield or armor tank theres a good chance you're going to run across people with all their resistances at or above the 60% mark, so it makes little difference. Least I don't think it will.
Lallante	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:04:00 - [25] Fleet Battles after this, for smart sides will be Pure Tempest. Why bother with an apoc with lower DOT and lower Range? Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
Question2	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:06:00 - [26] Beams were never overpowered to begin with?Thats funny,then why do their stats ingame say they have superior stats to howitzers/rails?Funny that. And yea i really dont think the devs were thinking of fleet engangements when they made these changes.Lets face it,its one facet of the game.If you dont want your armor resistance bonuses,i want them.It would be perfect for running missions or small scalae PVP. It seems funny that previously gankegeddons dominated in fleet engangements simply because,well their ganking ability was obscence,and now we have people complaining they cant gank as well as before and they dont want ability to tank. Im tempted to rate most of the responses as amaar crybabies desperate to hold onto their ship/module dominance in eve that has existed for far too long.
Xavier Cardde	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:08:00 - [27] id be fine if the beams just hadnt been nerfed into oblivion.... there were few enough tachs in fleet battles... even less now.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:09:00 - [28] Originally by: Question2 Beams were never overpowered to begin with?Thats funny,then why do their stats ingame say they have superior stats to howitzers/rails?Funny that. The idea was that most Amarr ships don't get an RoF or Damage bonus. Most, not all. So for example Mega Beams or Tachs, which may have better base stats compared to 1400's, are roughly equivalent when mount on an Apoc (no bonuses) versus 1400's on a Tempest (bonuses).
Mikelangelo	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:11:00 - [29] Quote: The changes however, are based on a premise of NO SHIP BONUSS. Every Amarr ship, has ONE bonus (50% less Cap use is totally irrelevant, it might as well be part of the stats for the gun, CAP conservation really isnt all that important on amarr ships). Every other race has TWO Bonus's. You seem to have forgotten when the Apoc HAD no cap bonus, and everybody was whining about they could not tank and fire their weapons for any significant length of time. Cap conservation isn't important?? What are you smoking?? Now you suddently don't like the Apoc's cap bonus, and suddenly want a damage bonus instead? You can't have everything you know.
Toran Mehtar	Posted - 2005.03.03 16:13:00 - [30] Originally by: Xavier Cardde id be fine if the beams just hadnt been nerfed into oblivion.... there were few enough tachs in fleet battles... even less now. Just out of curiosity, were all those tach setups using radios ? I've seen people say previously that they can get good 100km setups using infra-red. If that is the case, then the use of tachs has barely changed at all.



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