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Lameth
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:24:00 -
[31]
I had a crazy thought today...
Let's get 8 1400mm's on an apoc, with like.. 2 rcu's 2? Cpu upgrade aswell perhaps,and then 4 Damage mods on it. Shield tank it.
But wait... I remember this setup? Oh yeah, it's from FRICKIN 1,4 YEARS AGO!
Wasn't the projectile nerf/laser boost/cap relay nerf issues done to solve this sh*t?
Even since the gankageddons conception I have hated it. It's a N00b Nerfers dream, the proverbial barn door for Nerfers. What would happen if I fitted 7 DAmage mods and as many gunns as I could on a thron, with tracking enhancers in all the meds save for a mwd?
Would that... Kill stuff at the right ranges? Yes it would, but it can be killed by a cruiser pilot in 2min.
That damn gankageddon is dragging the rest of the ships in the mud, doing the minmatar job for them.
Now this game seem to be fought solelly on the forums, Nerf the opposition, get the "community" to hate your enemies, find scapegoats, and throw empires to the grounds...
It's looking bleak guys...
"reallife.dll not found"
http://www.killboard.net/signature/<Lameth>.jpg |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:24:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Lallante You have to be a tard to tank your ship at the highest end of play (if you are focus fired on, you die). All the best amarr bonus's are to tanking. Go figure.
Mmm, so you're saying tanking is no good to you, yet you choose to use ships geared towards tanking via their bonuses? Of course, this must be remedied immediately. While we're at it, can I get speed and agility boosts to my apoc, I fancy doing some tackling in it.
Oh, and this isn't directed particularly at you Lallante, it's a general peeve I have with a lot of the ship "balancing" arguments. The whole point of having different races and different ships is so that they can be good at different things, in different situations. If we can find a way to make them do something else, all well and good, but we shouldn't expect it. If people want to use a specific play style, they should choose the ship designed for it.
The alternative is to turn all this variety we have into a system where there's effectively one type of each ship class, a long and a short range generic weapon, and some generic utility modules.
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Weston McArthur
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:25:00 -
[33]
I don't suppose anyone has noticed the fact that it's still on Sisi? Maybe if ya'll logged on and tested the changes before going "Onos! Meh Apoc teh suxx0r!" and gave statistical feedback, they'd listen before dropping the hammer on Tranq. Of course, then ya couldn't be drama queens about it...
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Tobiaz
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:31:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Lallante Fleet Battles after this, for smart sides will be Pure Tempest. Why bother with an apoc with lower DOT and lower Range?
Because they are still better tanks?
Though ofcourse in fleet battle that is of less relevance, though It might give you enough time to get out when the whole overview becomes one flashing yellow bracket.
You say that the cap bonus is useless, yet it's this bonus that allows the Amarr ships to use the capsucking lasers while yet retaining enough cap for a good tank.
To be honest I think CCP should have left all frigate and Cruiser modules alone. There were little to none balacing problems with those expect that the railguns could not keep up in any way: too much cap and not enough damage or tracking.
I think the biggest problem was the overpowered Gankageddon combination. An overpowered weapon with a shipbonus that only increased that.
It had it's flaws, but when you have enough of these Gankageddons, the number will nullify most of those flaws. One Gankageddon is easily killed when carefull. Ten of them kill anything in their path.
I think the nerf in range and damage should be less then it is now, but the balance should come from the fact that you can't run that overpowered combination very long.
Make them use more cap, especially in the overpowered Gankageddon. If you can only use them in a fleetbattle (the main problem situation) it means you can only use them for like one target and then you would have wished you equipped lighter guns.
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Lallante
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:35:00 -
[35]
Whichever way you look at it, The Apoc with Tachyons WAS balanced with Tempest with 1400s, or if anything the Tempest had the edge.
Apocs just got nerfed when they wernt even **** hot to begin with. Ravens are much more of a problem.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Lallante Ravens are much more of a problem.
Guess which ship is next in line ---------------------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
mahhy
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:40:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Lallante Whichever way you look at it, The Apoc with Tachyons WAS balanced with Tempest with 1400s, or if anything the Tempest had the edge.
So because the Tempest has longer ranges now, the Apoc is crap? Have a think about the Tempests tracking issues and get your Apoc closer.
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Lallante
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:42:00 -
[38]
-30% less dmg and lower range?
Yes of course thats a problem.
You dont get Long range guns and them use them at short range you know.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:46:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Lallante -30% less dmg and lower range?
So now that a Radio crystal is doing more or less exactly the same amount of damage as the other long range ammos' and its range has been reduce by 2% this is a "big" problem??
Two percent?
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:50:00 -
[40]
Weirda was on SISI testing the changes last night. If there were even 1/3 of the ppl on SisI as there are whining on this thread - maybe it would be worth a listen. All Weirda see is people who have misunderstood a majority of what was posted about changes.
FFS - there is no "nerf" on tachs (except a few points of damage at long range) - megapulse optimal was cut by 29% (not the crystals, which actually go farther now with radio) - Be Weirda's guest if you want to use the 1400s on you apoc again, you'll find that you doing much less damage then you would with lasers
Weirda specialize in Amarr and Matari ships/weapons - and will continue to do so. The advantages of lasers are so countless - will not even go into that, suffice to say that short range projectiles are more fun...
Also - try going out with a full setup of dual heavy pulse... they track VERY well and are even easier to support a good tank with... With the range nerf to megapulse - you may be pleasantly surprised...
Either way Lallante - Weirda sad that you (and so many others) are so upset, but it just seem so reactionary that it hard to take seriously. There were 6 people on SiSi last night... 6... vs the 600 that are whining all over the forums about these changes... -- Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSION> |
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Alexander Nocturnes
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:51:00 -
[41]
eh, Tempest tracking issues make them sucky guns at any point in time and any range comparatively to the lasers, with, or without changes. To think that you really believe this'll make them better and the lasers of lesser strengths is laughable. I'd suggest going out and testing all the stuff before whining. Whining never got anyone anywhere. Come back with some mathematically sound data, with yer own charts and graphs, etc. Maybe then CCP will take some notice that you put effort into this, instead of the usual stirring up of the populace.
cheers
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Lallante
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:51:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Lallante on 03/03/2005 16:53:47
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Lallante -30% less dmg and lower range?
So now that a Radio crystal is doing more or less exactly the same amount of damage as the other long range ammos' and its range has been reduce by 2% this is a "big" problem??
Two percent?
Quote: (except a few points of damage at long range)
THE DAMAGE IS THE PROBLEM.
Tachyons are a PURE long range gun. -30% is not a "few points of damage" If it was balanced BEFORE a -30% change, how can it be balanced AFTERWARDS.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
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Lallante
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:52:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Alexander Nocturnes eh, Tempest tracking issues make them sucky guns at any point in time and any range comparatively to the lasers, with, or without changes. To think that you really believe this'll make them better and the lasers of lesser strengths is laughable. I'd suggest going out and testing all the stuff before whining. Whining never got anyone anywhere. Come back with some mathematically sound data, with yer own charts and graphs, etc. Maybe then CCP will take some notice that you put effort into this, instead of the usual stirring up of the populace.
cheers
Try PvPing. Tempests ARE the best ship in a fleet fight, apocs are a very close second.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
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Lallante
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:52:00 -
[44]
Originally by: WhiteTiger
Originally by: Lallante Whichever way you look at it, The Apoc with Tachyons WAS balanced with Tempest with 1400s, or if anything the Tempest had the edge.
Apocs just got nerfed when they wernt even **** hot to begin with. Ravens are much more of a problem.
Can you make up your mind? You are whining about long range fleet battles then complain that the Raven which is the most worthless long range fleet BS is problem?
Why don't we just make all the weapons and ships exactly the same? That way everything will be balanced.
Ravens are broken. Contrary to Dev Oppinion, Fixing isnt all about either nerfing or boosting.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
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WhiteTiger
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:52:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Lallante Whichever way you look at it, The Apoc with Tachyons WAS balanced with Tempest with 1400s, or if anything the Tempest had the edge.
Apocs just got nerfed when they wernt even **** hot to begin with. Ravens are much more of a problem.
Can you make up your mind? You are whining about long range fleet battles then complain that the Raven which is the most worthless long range fleet BS is problem?
Why don't we just make all the weapons and ships exactly the same? That way everything will be balanced.
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Alexander Nocturnes
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:55:00 -
[46]
actually, done pvp'ing, fleet and spec ops. I fought against yer curse alliance in stain and xetic prior to shiva. ;)
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Lorth
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:03:00 -
[47]
You know I did the math you know with real numbers and still have the tach coming ahead damage wise over a 4/4 tempest pilot, abit at a smaller range.
Further, considering the long range crystals now do the same damage as the long range 'ammos' I don't see the problem. Especially when one considers the added low slot of an apoc compared to the tempest.
You also get much much better tracking, and a much better tank, if you desire to fit that way.
No your right, no one tanks during a fleet battle, but not all combat happens during fleets. In fact the vast majority of it doesn't.
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MachineMk2
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:04:00 -
[48]
Amarr whining 4 teh w1n!
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ErrorS
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:09:00 -
[49]
did anyone honestly believe this wouldn't happen? you know, every amarr pilot whining about the changes after this upcomming 'nerf'.
"I Amarr, use to be good. Now I Amarr, am balanced with everyone else" switch the race with another one, add a 10 page thread with whining and you get to see a bit of history. Not one race hasn't done it already and we will probably all do it again. ________
I'm strict Caldari
"The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think?
-ErrorS |
Lallante
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:10:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Lorth You know I did the math you know with real numbers and still have the tach coming ahead damage wise over a 4/4 tempest pilot, abit at a smaller range.
Further, considering the long range crystals now do the same damage as the long range 'ammos' I don't see the problem. Especially when one considers the added low slot of an apoc compared to the tempest.
You also get much much better tracking, and a much better tank, if you desire to fit that way.
No your right, no one tanks during a fleet battle, but not all combat happens during fleets. In fact the vast majority of it doesn't.
My maths shows them to be considerably weaker.
No, not all combat happens in fleets, HOWEVER most happens in ganks, which will be unaffected. Fleet is the biggest catagory after ganks, and it WILL be affected.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
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Mr MadCap
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:12:00 -
[51]
Originally by: MachineMk2 Amarr whining 4 teh w1n!
Tell me bout it, one proposed change, not effecting lasers a whole lot and *ping* 9763549872 posts and threads on "OHNOES MY AMARR SHIPS WILL ONLY BE SLIGHTLY BETTER THAN EVERYTHING ELSE".
Instead think, how do i want to fight?, not i want to fight like everywhine else.
The Raven will take a beating too soonÖ, just go on the test server and give your ships a try.
Pulses still hit very well for good dmg over more of a distance range than any other hard hitting weapon.
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:12:00 -
[52]
Originally by: ErrorS "I Amarr, use to be good...
Damn, I hate to be one of those ppl that jump on spelling mistakes, but there is a glaring typo in that sentence.
You clearly used one 'o' too many
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:14:00 -
[53]
Since any gun can go on any ship, you can not consider ship bonuses when you tweak guns. You consider ship bonuses when you are balancing ships...
Suck it up. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:15:00 -
[54]
Except, like. What kinda gun was 'god' again before projectiles got nerfed? Not by any chance projectiles? And what type of gun was crap at the time? Wasnt that the lasers?
/Elve
New Video out! Watch me!
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Francisco D'Anconia
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:25:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Francisco D''Anconia on 03/03/2005 17:26:10 Is it me or have people replied to almost every post on this thread apart from the one that really matters? Take a look at the post at the bottom of page 2. Weirda's post. Now, I'm not saying the "OMG NERFED!" point of view is invalid, I'm not a megapulse user so I can't comment on the facts of the "nerf/not-nerf", but there seems to be an awful lot of whining (by a lot of people) without actually testing stuff out.
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Axle skye
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:26:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Axle skye on 03/03/2005 17:27:52 Weirda 4 teh w1n! its all in the testing
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Serret
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:44:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Lallante Apocs just got nerfed when they wernt even **** hot to begin with. Ravens are much more of a problem.
Yep, 2/3 the damage which takes 8 times as long to arrive. (OOOH SCARY RAVENS!!!)
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hitech redneck
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:49:00 -
[58]
This is funny. Players did not have a issue when missle got put on the nerf block. They thought yeah they need it now whos crying. I agree that beams needed a bit of tweaking more than missles.
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:53:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Weirda on 03/03/2005 17:55:22
Originally by: Francisco D'Anconia Edited by: Francisco D''Anconia on 03/03/2005 17:26:10 Is it me or have people replied to almost every post on this thread apart from the one that really matters? Take a look at the post at the bottom of page 2. Weirda's post. Now, I'm not saying the "OMG NERFED!" point of view is invalid, I'm not a megapulse user so I can't comment on the facts of the "nerf/not-nerf", but there seems to be an awful lot of whining (by a lot of people) without actually testing stuff out.
Wow - thought that everyone just had Weirda 'blocked'...
BTW - is that an option on these forum? It would explain a lot!!!
And yes - don't really think that they listen to people who haven't tested the changes and don't have constructive feedback... Weirda still chapped that they haven't reduced the charge sizes so that deep space hunting in anything other then Amarr ship is logistical nightmare. Of course there ways around it, but at least throw us 1/2 of a bone!!! -- Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSION> |
RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.03.03 18:01:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Lallante The changes however, are based on a premise of NO SHIP BONUSS.
The hell are you talking about? Every time Hammer graphs a weapon, he does it using skills and ships, not just the weapon stats alone. He even has a fixed transverse.
Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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