Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:01:00 -
[1]
Noone could deny that Megapulses were unbalanced. Its difficult to argue that a gankageddon wasnt wrong.
The changes proposed seem fair at first glance, and are definately so when dealing with a megapulse on a geddon.
The changes however, are based on a premise of NO SHIP BONUSS. Every Amarr ship, has ONE bonus (50% less Cap use is totally irrelevant, it might as well be part of the stats for the gun, CAP conservation really isnt all that important on amarr ships). Every other race has TWO Bonus's.
Before this change, most frig and cruiser amarr vessels were not dominating overly with pulses. The reason? The other ships got 2 bnus's so that countered for it. A Thorax can eat a Maller, A Deimos can chew up a sacrilege. The frigs are balanced to an extent, if anything Amarr suffer from gimped slot layout (mmm 1 midslot).
I come now, to my baby, the apoc. At the moment, I use Tachyon IIs. I rely on my range and damage to win. I would say I am balanced with a similar level pilot in a Tempest, Raven or even Thron (although Hybrids need like a 50% less cap change).
With the proposed changes, the Apoc, with its total lack of offensive Bonus's, will be massively outclassed at long range. At Short range, with the Megapulse, its lack of tracking or ROF bonus's will also render it ****ty. People go on about Megapulses tracking? WTF? Its HALF that of the Highest Damage Blaster!! At long range, it was fine, but now with the MEgapulse as a short range gun, its going to be abysmal.
Clearly change was needed, but ovverrelliance on misleading graphs have left us Amarr pilots ******, with the exception of the geddon which is now closer inline with the others (but will still suffer if using MPs because of tracking).
Cheers.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
Rodj Blake
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:06:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 03/03/2005 15:07:11 You'll still see Amarrian ships after the changes, but we'll back to the situation where nobody uses lasers.
To be honest, when I get home tonight, I'm going to stop training med beam specialisation, and start working on improving either my projectile or hybrid skills.
Beam lasers were in no way overpowered before, so nerfing crystals will make them almost useless.
What people seem to have forgotten is that the apalling fall-off distance for lasers means that they will struggle in long distance engagements, but the decent damage of radio crystals compensated for this.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
TEH FL4ME
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:12:00 -
[3]
Edited by: TEH FL4ME on 03/03/2005 15:13:46 This change was always gonna happen
crying over spilled milk and all that.....
EDIT : Beams 4tw?
|
Hakera
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:14:00 -
[4]
didnt really need another thread on this tbh
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Emeline Cabernet
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:15:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Emeline Cabernet on 03/03/2005 15:15:50 Could we get the missile nerf now?? LIKE NOW!?!
and to the tards.. you're only crying because you get spanked every day.
|
Weston McArthur
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:16:00 -
[6]
Mmmmm drama.
|
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:17:00 -
[7]
Its so insanely shortsighted.
HOW can CCP consider a change of this magnitude without taking ship bonus's, Tracking, slot layouts and all the rest into account.
I find it nearly impossible to imagine an Apoc loadout using lasers that could break a close range BSs tank OR track it when it gets close with these changes.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
Damajink
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:19:00 -
[8]
Yep, I'm gonna go buy some 1400s for my Apoc now since Lasers are gonna be pretty much useless.
Megapulse totally outclassed in short range by blasters and autocannons with Tachs being rubbish at range due to Radio nerf.
Thanks CCP
|
Papermate
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lallante Its so insanely shortsighted.
HOW can CCP consider a change of this magnitude without taking ship bonus's, Tracking, slot layouts and all the rest into account.
I find it nearly impossible to imagine an Apoc loadout using lasers that could break a close range BSs tank OR track it when it gets close with these changes.
Yes tis what I think exactly. No1 uses a tempest and his 800mm guns without at least lvl 3-4 BS.
"Master of Papercuts" |
mahhy
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:21:00 -
[10]
The geddon is in no way affected, not even by tracking. It just means that at the ranges its currently used at you'll be doing slightly less damage. It still has greater range than blasters, and therefore lesser tracking. The MP can still reach out and touch you at 50km or more so is in no way a short range gun.
The damage changes of the long range crystals mean that guns like the Tach are MORE inline with their counterparts (1400 and 425) except that it may not have the range of the 1400's. Radio crystals were doing too much damage previously.
If anything its you whos over reacting, I think. Claiming that we're ****** is a little silly.
|
|
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:24:00 -
[11]
Quote: The damage changes of the long range crystals mean that guns like the Tach are MORE inline with their counterparts (1400 and 425) except that it may not have the range of the 1400's. Radio crystals were doing too much damage previously
INLINE, BEFORE BONUS's is the point.
You have to be a tard to tank your ship at the highest end of play (if you are focus fired on, you die). All the best amarr bonus's are to tanking. Go figure.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:25:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Noriath on 03/03/2005 15:26:03
Originally by: Lallante (50% less Cap use is totally irrelevant, it might as well be part of the stats for the gun, CAP conservation really isnt all that important on amarr ships).
That statement is so wrong... Those cap bonuses are exactly what makes Lasers so ridiculous on Amarr ships.
Lasers should use up a lot of cap so you have to find a balance between tanking and shooting.
Up until now Amarr was the only race that didn't have to, because it could just shoot and tank (Better then everyone else on top of that) at the same time with no problem.
|
Nyxus
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:27:00 -
[13]
Simply put, change the 10% cap bonus on the Apoc back to 5%, and give them either a 5% ROF bonus or a 5% damage bonus. This would put it back on par with other ships since they all have some similar type of bonus. Amarrian ships didn't need it before as long as they used Megas. With this change it would keep all ships, across all races in a greater balance.
FYI- a rof bonus could be scary, but I listed it becuase that would keep with the bonus on the Arma and provide some sort of continuity of bonus types across racial shiptypes, something that CCP seems prone to do.
Nyxus
|
mahhy
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Lallante
Quote: The damage changes of the long range crystals mean that guns like the Tach are MORE inline with their counterparts (1400 and 425) except that it may not have the range of the 1400's. Radio crystals were doing too much damage previously
INLINE, BEFORE BONUS's is the point.
You have to be a tard to tank your ship at the highest end of play (if you are focus fired on, you die). All the best amarr bonus's are to tanking. Go figure.
So the fact that a Tach on an Apoc is inline with a 1400 on a Tempest is a problem? Perhaps I'm completely missing what you're trying to say...
And the idea of tanking versus "higest end of play" is a bit daft. How you define high end play may not be how others define it. Fleet versus solo/small group has nothing to do with this discussion.
|
Hakera
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:29:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lallante
I find it nearly impossible to imagine an Apoc loadout using lasers that could break a close range BSs tank OR track it when it gets close with these changes.
if your talking long range vs long range, a 1400mm II gank setup cant do it either vs an apoc with tach II's
Short range, without killing the apoc tank with nos, the 800mm cant cause enough damage
Bit of an overreaction tbh, all the dps stats on sisi dont show the end of lasers (maybe you should try it) but they do show less of an effective range for them so they really are med range guns which still covers 90% of engagement ranges. For 100k+ battles which I assume your interested in, the tach/beams were able to keep up and outdamage the 1400mm or 425mm rail. Ive been hit for 1000hp+ at 100k by tach's while not even inflicting similar damage because im firing from falloff wheras the apoc with tachs is firing in optimal. Lasers arnt meant to be the 'i win' button.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Noriath Edited by: Noriath on 03/03/2005 15:26:03
Originally by: Lallante (50% less Cap use is totally irrelevant, it might as well be part of the stats for the gun, CAP conservation really isnt all that important on amarr ships).
That statement is so wrong... Those cap bonuses are exactly what makes Lasers so ridiculous on Amarr ships.
Lasers should use up a lot of cap so you have to find a balance between tanking and shooting.
Up until now Amarr was the only race that didn't have to, because it could just shoot and tank (Better then everyone else on top of that) at the same time with no problem.
In PvP there is no such balance. NOONE runs out of cap in fleet combat, you run out of structure or you run out of ammo, NEVER Cap.
I would LOVE to pay 2x the cap for lasers if I got a 5% per level dmg bonus on the apoc. If you think those 2 bonus's are equivilent, can we swap out some of the dmg bonus's on your ships too?
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
Damajink
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: mahhy The geddon is in no way affected, not even by tracking. It just means that at the ranges its currently used at you'll be doing slightly less damage. It still has greater range than blasters, and therefore lesser tracking. The MP can still reach out and touch you at 50km or more so is in no way a short range gun.
The damage changes of the long range crystals mean that guns like the Tach are MORE inline with their counterparts (1400 and 425) except that it may not have the range of the 1400's. Radio crystals were doing too much damage previously.
If anything its you whos over reacting, I think. Claiming that we're ****** is a little silly.
But Radio crystals do nothing but EM damage.....projectiles and rails do other types of damage too. Since Em resistance is 60% base on armour, don't you think that nerfing radios makes long range pretty much useless?
|
LUKEC
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:32:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Noriath Edited by: Noriath on 03/03/2005 15:26:03
Originally by: Lallante (50% less Cap use is totally irrelevant, it might as well be part of the stats for the gun, CAP conservation really isnt all that important on amarr ships).
That statement is so wrong... Those cap bonuses are exactly what makes Lasers so ridiculous on Amarr ships.
Lasers should use up a lot of cap so you have to find a balance between tanking and shooting.
Up until now Amarr was the only race that didn't have to, because it could just shoot and tank (Better then everyone else on top of that) at the same time with no problem.
i wonder about projectile & missile cap usage
|
Xavier Cardde
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:37:00 -
[19]
yep crap changes... and of course nerfs instead of buffs....
what do you expect from CCP except crap changes?
buff the effing hybrids and howwies instead of dumping nerfs...CCP nerfs for 2 years and still no balence... maybe they should rethink the logic of the nerf damn it.
|
Toran Mehtar
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:39:00 -
[20]
OMGWTFBBQ! Amarr might no longer be the best at every range in every fight ! 'Sploit !
/sarcasm.
|
|
Xavier Cardde
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:40:00 -
[21]
cant.....stand.......this.....idiocy...
yay nerf ranges and as usual they over-nerf their target and make weapons associated with their nerf USELESS...
I SMELL STUPIDITY
|
Xavier Cardde
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:46:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Toran Mehtar OMGWTFBBQ! Amarr might no longer be the best at every range in every fight ! 'Sploit !
/sarcasm.
THE RAVEN, that god awful thing outclasses amarr at any range under 50km.
nerf the missiles if we are soooooo nerf happy.
|
Larno
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:49:00 -
[23]
For once I have to agree with Lallente. Amarr ships are pretty balanced apart from the 7/8 Heatsink II setups that people use. I put this down almost entirely to the fact that Amarr ships have 1 completely crap bonus.
Graphs are very misleading. They do not show things like the ship bonuses. For example, whenever you see a projectile vs laser graph you might aswell add 20% to the RoF of the projectile.
|
mahhy
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 15:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Damajink
Originally by: mahhy The geddon is in no way affected, not even by tracking. It just means that at the ranges its currently used at you'll be doing slightly less damage. It still has greater range than blasters, and therefore lesser tracking. The MP can still reach out and touch you at 50km or more so is in no way a short range gun.
The damage changes of the long range crystals mean that guns like the Tach are MORE inline with their counterparts (1400 and 425) except that it may not have the range of the 1400's. Radio crystals were doing too much damage previously.
If anything its you whos over reacting, I think. Claiming that we're ****** is a little silly.
But Radio crystals do nothing but EM damage.....projectiles and rails do other types of damage too. Since Em resistance is 60% base on armour, don't you think that nerfing radios makes long range pretty much useless?
Not really. It all depends on how the person you're fighting is setup. In a pretty standard-ish shield or armor tank theres a good chance you're going to run across people with all their resistances at or above the 60% mark, so it makes little difference. Least I don't think it will.
|
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:04:00 -
[25]
Fleet Battles after this, for smart sides will be Pure Tempest. Why bother with an apoc with lower DOT and lower Range?
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
Question2
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:06:00 -
[26]
Beams were never overpowered to begin with?Thats funny,then why do their stats ingame say they have superior stats to howitzers/rails?Funny that.
And yea i really dont think the devs were thinking of fleet engangements when they made these changes.Lets face it,its one facet of the game.If you dont want your armor resistance bonuses,i want them.It would be perfect for running missions or small scalae PVP.
It seems funny that previously gankegeddons dominated in fleet engangements simply because,well their ganking ability was obscence,and now we have people complaining they cant gank as well as before and they dont want ability to tank.
Im tempted to rate most of the responses as amaar crybabies desperate to hold onto their ship/module dominance in eve that has existed for far too long.
|
Xavier Cardde
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:08:00 -
[27]
id be fine if the beams just hadnt been nerfed into oblivion.... there were few enough tachs in fleet battles... even less now.
|
mahhy
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:09:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Question2 Beams were never overpowered to begin with?Thats funny,then why do their stats ingame say they have superior stats to howitzers/rails?Funny that.
The idea was that most Amarr ships don't get an RoF or Damage bonus. Most, not all. So for example Mega Beams or Tachs, which may have better base stats compared to 1400's, are roughly equivalent when mount on an Apoc (no bonuses) versus 1400's on a Tempest (bonuses).
|
Mikelangelo
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:11:00 -
[29]
Quote: The changes however, are based on a premise of NO SHIP BONUSS. Every Amarr ship, has ONE bonus (50% less Cap use is totally irrelevant, it might as well be part of the stats for the gun, CAP conservation really isnt all that important on amarr ships). Every other race has TWO Bonus's.
You seem to have forgotten when the Apoc HAD no cap bonus, and everybody was whining about they could not tank and fire their weapons for any significant length of time.
Cap conservation isn't important?? What are you smoking??
Now you suddently don't like the Apoc's cap bonus, and suddenly want a damage bonus instead?
You can't have everything you know.
|
Toran Mehtar
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Xavier Cardde id be fine if the beams just hadnt been nerfed into oblivion.... there were few enough tachs in fleet battles... even less now.
Just out of curiosity, were all those tach setups using radios ? I've seen people say previously that they can get good 100km setups using infra-red. If that is the case, then the use of tachs has barely changed at all.
|
|
Lameth
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:24:00 -
[31]
I had a crazy thought today...
Let's get 8 1400mm's on an apoc, with like.. 2 rcu's 2? Cpu upgrade aswell perhaps,and then 4 Damage mods on it. Shield tank it.
But wait... I remember this setup? Oh yeah, it's from FRICKIN 1,4 YEARS AGO!
Wasn't the projectile nerf/laser boost/cap relay nerf issues done to solve this sh*t?
Even since the gankageddons conception I have hated it. It's a N00b Nerfers dream, the proverbial barn door for Nerfers. What would happen if I fitted 7 DAmage mods and as many gunns as I could on a thron, with tracking enhancers in all the meds save for a mwd?
Would that... Kill stuff at the right ranges? Yes it would, but it can be killed by a cruiser pilot in 2min.
That damn gankageddon is dragging the rest of the ships in the mud, doing the minmatar job for them.
Now this game seem to be fought solelly on the forums, Nerf the opposition, get the "community" to hate your enemies, find scapegoats, and throw empires to the grounds...
It's looking bleak guys...
"reallife.dll not found"
http://www.killboard.net/signature/<Lameth>.jpg |
Matthew
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:24:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Lallante You have to be a tard to tank your ship at the highest end of play (if you are focus fired on, you die). All the best amarr bonus's are to tanking. Go figure.
Mmm, so you're saying tanking is no good to you, yet you choose to use ships geared towards tanking via their bonuses? Of course, this must be remedied immediately. While we're at it, can I get speed and agility boosts to my apoc, I fancy doing some tackling in it.
Oh, and this isn't directed particularly at you Lallante, it's a general peeve I have with a lot of the ship "balancing" arguments. The whole point of having different races and different ships is so that they can be good at different things, in different situations. If we can find a way to make them do something else, all well and good, but we shouldn't expect it. If people want to use a specific play style, they should choose the ship designed for it.
The alternative is to turn all this variety we have into a system where there's effectively one type of each ship class, a long and a short range generic weapon, and some generic utility modules.
|
Weston McArthur
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:25:00 -
[33]
I don't suppose anyone has noticed the fact that it's still on Sisi? Maybe if ya'll logged on and tested the changes before going "Onos! Meh Apoc teh suxx0r!" and gave statistical feedback, they'd listen before dropping the hammer on Tranq. Of course, then ya couldn't be drama queens about it...
|
Tobiaz
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:31:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Lallante Fleet Battles after this, for smart sides will be Pure Tempest. Why bother with an apoc with lower DOT and lower Range?
Because they are still better tanks?
Though ofcourse in fleet battle that is of less relevance, though It might give you enough time to get out when the whole overview becomes one flashing yellow bracket.
You say that the cap bonus is useless, yet it's this bonus that allows the Amarr ships to use the capsucking lasers while yet retaining enough cap for a good tank.
To be honest I think CCP should have left all frigate and Cruiser modules alone. There were little to none balacing problems with those expect that the railguns could not keep up in any way: too much cap and not enough damage or tracking.
I think the biggest problem was the overpowered Gankageddon combination. An overpowered weapon with a shipbonus that only increased that.
It had it's flaws, but when you have enough of these Gankageddons, the number will nullify most of those flaws. One Gankageddon is easily killed when carefull. Ten of them kill anything in their path.
I think the nerf in range and damage should be less then it is now, but the balance should come from the fact that you can't run that overpowered combination very long.
Make them use more cap, especially in the overpowered Gankageddon. If you can only use them in a fleetbattle (the main problem situation) it means you can only use them for like one target and then you would have wished you equipped lighter guns.
|
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:35:00 -
[35]
Whichever way you look at it, The Apoc with Tachyons WAS balanced with Tempest with 1400s, or if anything the Tempest had the edge.
Apocs just got nerfed when they wernt even **** hot to begin with. Ravens are much more of a problem.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
Joshua Foiritain
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Lallante Ravens are much more of a problem.
Guess which ship is next in line ---------------------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
mahhy
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:40:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Lallante Whichever way you look at it, The Apoc with Tachyons WAS balanced with Tempest with 1400s, or if anything the Tempest had the edge.
So because the Tempest has longer ranges now, the Apoc is crap? Have a think about the Tempests tracking issues and get your Apoc closer.
|
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:42:00 -
[38]
-30% less dmg and lower range?
Yes of course thats a problem.
You dont get Long range guns and them use them at short range you know.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
mahhy
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:46:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Lallante -30% less dmg and lower range?
So now that a Radio crystal is doing more or less exactly the same amount of damage as the other long range ammos' and its range has been reduce by 2% this is a "big" problem??
Two percent?
|
Weirda
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:50:00 -
[40]
Weirda was on SISI testing the changes last night. If there were even 1/3 of the ppl on SisI as there are whining on this thread - maybe it would be worth a listen. All Weirda see is people who have misunderstood a majority of what was posted about changes.
FFS - there is no "nerf" on tachs (except a few points of damage at long range) - megapulse optimal was cut by 29% (not the crystals, which actually go farther now with radio) - Be Weirda's guest if you want to use the 1400s on you apoc again, you'll find that you doing much less damage then you would with lasers
Weirda specialize in Amarr and Matari ships/weapons - and will continue to do so. The advantages of lasers are so countless - will not even go into that, suffice to say that short range projectiles are more fun...
Also - try going out with a full setup of dual heavy pulse... they track VERY well and are even easier to support a good tank with... With the range nerf to megapulse - you may be pleasantly surprised...
Either way Lallante - Weirda sad that you (and so many others) are so upset, but it just seem so reactionary that it hard to take seriously. There were 6 people on SiSi last night... 6... vs the 600 that are whining all over the forums about these changes... -- Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSION> |
|
Alexander Nocturnes
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:51:00 -
[41]
eh, Tempest tracking issues make them sucky guns at any point in time and any range comparatively to the lasers, with, or without changes. To think that you really believe this'll make them better and the lasers of lesser strengths is laughable. I'd suggest going out and testing all the stuff before whining. Whining never got anyone anywhere. Come back with some mathematically sound data, with yer own charts and graphs, etc. Maybe then CCP will take some notice that you put effort into this, instead of the usual stirring up of the populace.
cheers
|
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:51:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Lallante on 03/03/2005 16:53:47
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Lallante -30% less dmg and lower range?
So now that a Radio crystal is doing more or less exactly the same amount of damage as the other long range ammos' and its range has been reduce by 2% this is a "big" problem??
Two percent?
Quote: (except a few points of damage at long range)
THE DAMAGE IS THE PROBLEM.
Tachyons are a PURE long range gun. -30% is not a "few points of damage" If it was balanced BEFORE a -30% change, how can it be balanced AFTERWARDS.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:52:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Alexander Nocturnes eh, Tempest tracking issues make them sucky guns at any point in time and any range comparatively to the lasers, with, or without changes. To think that you really believe this'll make them better and the lasers of lesser strengths is laughable. I'd suggest going out and testing all the stuff before whining. Whining never got anyone anywhere. Come back with some mathematically sound data, with yer own charts and graphs, etc. Maybe then CCP will take some notice that you put effort into this, instead of the usual stirring up of the populace.
cheers
Try PvPing. Tempests ARE the best ship in a fleet fight, apocs are a very close second.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:52:00 -
[44]
Originally by: WhiteTiger
Originally by: Lallante Whichever way you look at it, The Apoc with Tachyons WAS balanced with Tempest with 1400s, or if anything the Tempest had the edge.
Apocs just got nerfed when they wernt even **** hot to begin with. Ravens are much more of a problem.
Can you make up your mind? You are whining about long range fleet battles then complain that the Raven which is the most worthless long range fleet BS is problem?
Why don't we just make all the weapons and ships exactly the same? That way everything will be balanced.
Ravens are broken. Contrary to Dev Oppinion, Fixing isnt all about either nerfing or boosting.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
WhiteTiger
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:52:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Lallante Whichever way you look at it, The Apoc with Tachyons WAS balanced with Tempest with 1400s, or if anything the Tempest had the edge.
Apocs just got nerfed when they wernt even **** hot to begin with. Ravens are much more of a problem.
Can you make up your mind? You are whining about long range fleet battles then complain that the Raven which is the most worthless long range fleet BS is problem?
Why don't we just make all the weapons and ships exactly the same? That way everything will be balanced.
|
Alexander Nocturnes
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 16:55:00 -
[46]
actually, done pvp'ing, fleet and spec ops. I fought against yer curse alliance in stain and xetic prior to shiva. ;)
|
Lorth
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:03:00 -
[47]
You know I did the math you know with real numbers and still have the tach coming ahead damage wise over a 4/4 tempest pilot, abit at a smaller range.
Further, considering the long range crystals now do the same damage as the long range 'ammos' I don't see the problem. Especially when one considers the added low slot of an apoc compared to the tempest.
You also get much much better tracking, and a much better tank, if you desire to fit that way.
No your right, no one tanks during a fleet battle, but not all combat happens during fleets. In fact the vast majority of it doesn't.
|
MachineMk2
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:04:00 -
[48]
Amarr whining 4 teh w1n!
|
ErrorS
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:09:00 -
[49]
did anyone honestly believe this wouldn't happen? you know, every amarr pilot whining about the changes after this upcomming 'nerf'.
"I Amarr, use to be good. Now I Amarr, am balanced with everyone else" switch the race with another one, add a 10 page thread with whining and you get to see a bit of history. Not one race hasn't done it already and we will probably all do it again. ________
I'm strict Caldari
"The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think?
-ErrorS |
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:10:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Lorth You know I did the math you know with real numbers and still have the tach coming ahead damage wise over a 4/4 tempest pilot, abit at a smaller range.
Further, considering the long range crystals now do the same damage as the long range 'ammos' I don't see the problem. Especially when one considers the added low slot of an apoc compared to the tempest.
You also get much much better tracking, and a much better tank, if you desire to fit that way.
No your right, no one tanks during a fleet battle, but not all combat happens during fleets. In fact the vast majority of it doesn't.
My maths shows them to be considerably weaker.
No, not all combat happens in fleets, HOWEVER most happens in ganks, which will be unaffected. Fleet is the biggest catagory after ganks, and it WILL be affected.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
|
Mr MadCap
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:12:00 -
[51]
Originally by: MachineMk2 Amarr whining 4 teh w1n!
Tell me bout it, one proposed change, not effecting lasers a whole lot and *ping* 9763549872 posts and threads on "OHNOES MY AMARR SHIPS WILL ONLY BE SLIGHTLY BETTER THAN EVERYTHING ELSE".
Instead think, how do i want to fight?, not i want to fight like everywhine else.
The Raven will take a beating too soonÖ, just go on the test server and give your ships a try.
Pulses still hit very well for good dmg over more of a distance range than any other hard hitting weapon.
|
Toran Mehtar
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:12:00 -
[52]
Originally by: ErrorS "I Amarr, use to be good...
Damn, I hate to be one of those ppl that jump on spelling mistakes, but there is a glaring typo in that sentence.
You clearly used one 'o' too many
|
Imhotep Khem
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:14:00 -
[53]
Since any gun can go on any ship, you can not consider ship bonuses when you tweak guns. You consider ship bonuses when you are balancing ships...
Suck it up. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Elve Sorrow
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:15:00 -
[54]
Except, like. What kinda gun was 'god' again before projectiles got nerfed? Not by any chance projectiles? And what type of gun was crap at the time? Wasnt that the lasers?
/Elve
New Video out! Watch me!
|
Francisco D'Anconia
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:25:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Francisco D''Anconia on 03/03/2005 17:26:10 Is it me or have people replied to almost every post on this thread apart from the one that really matters? Take a look at the post at the bottom of page 2. Weirda's post. Now, I'm not saying the "OMG NERFED!" point of view is invalid, I'm not a megapulse user so I can't comment on the facts of the "nerf/not-nerf", but there seems to be an awful lot of whining (by a lot of people) without actually testing stuff out.
|
Axle skye
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:26:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Axle skye on 03/03/2005 17:27:52 Weirda 4 teh w1n! its all in the testing
|
Serret
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:44:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Lallante Apocs just got nerfed when they wernt even **** hot to begin with. Ravens are much more of a problem.
Yep, 2/3 the damage which takes 8 times as long to arrive. (OOOH SCARY RAVENS!!!)
|
hitech redneck
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:49:00 -
[58]
This is funny. Players did not have a issue when missle got put on the nerf block. They thought yeah they need it now whos crying. I agree that beams needed a bit of tweaking more than missles.
|
Weirda
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 17:53:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Weirda on 03/03/2005 17:55:22
Originally by: Francisco D'Anconia Edited by: Francisco D''Anconia on 03/03/2005 17:26:10 Is it me or have people replied to almost every post on this thread apart from the one that really matters? Take a look at the post at the bottom of page 2. Weirda's post. Now, I'm not saying the "OMG NERFED!" point of view is invalid, I'm not a megapulse user so I can't comment on the facts of the "nerf/not-nerf", but there seems to be an awful lot of whining (by a lot of people) without actually testing stuff out.
Wow - thought that everyone just had Weirda 'blocked'...
BTW - is that an option on these forum? It would explain a lot!!!
And yes - don't really think that they listen to people who haven't tested the changes and don't have constructive feedback... Weirda still chapped that they haven't reduced the charge sizes so that deep space hunting in anything other then Amarr ship is logistical nightmare. Of course there ways around it, but at least throw us 1/2 of a bone!!! -- Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSION> |
RollinDutchMasters
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 18:01:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Lallante The changes however, are based on a premise of NO SHIP BONUSS.
The hell are you talking about? Every time Hammer graphs a weapon, he does it using skills and ships, not just the weapon stats alone. He even has a fixed transverse.
Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
|
|
Bad'Boy
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 18:13:00 -
[61]
got 4 words reply to this tread: Cry me a river
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
|
capt
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 18:14:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Lallante Its so insanely shortsighted.
HOW can CCP consider a change of this magnitude without taking ship bonus's, Tracking, slot layouts and all the rest into account.
I find it nearly impossible to imagine an Apoc loadout using lasers that could break a close range BSs tank OR track it when it gets close with these changes.
I guess you just forgot how CCP left the projectile situation for more than 6 months, screwing every large projectile artillery user in the game?
But I guess it's in peoples nature to only whine when "their" little sacred position is affected. People are selfish...... Don't expect any support from any projectile player as we had little from all the ammar BS pilots who just loved being UBER....
|
Alowishus
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 18:17:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Alowishus on 03/03/2005 18:18:01 Neat, CCP are back to square one. We've come full circle since I started playing. Projectiles are the ub3rest, the Apoc has ZERO insentive to use lasers over projectiles and Amarrians are going to whine in sixty seven threads per day.
Stupidity is not learning from your mistakes. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. $30 a month for stupid insanity. Awesome. I'm glad these people have my CC numbers.
Sure the lasers could have used some adjustment, maybe, but nerfing them to dust? CCP honestly has the time to nerf and boost projectiles/lasers every six months with so many other problems? GREAT! Glad to know what my money is paying for.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
Mule Lopeer
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 18:26:00 -
[64]
Okay, so pulse lasers went from 'blaster-like damage and beam-like range' to blaster like damage, and ~30% less range. Boohoo?
You want to trade that capacitor bonus for a laser damage bonus? I bet you don't. Drop a hardener and put another heatsink II on if the Apocs damage output isn't enough for you, it's still by far the best tank in the game, hands down.
|
Xavier Cardde
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 18:44:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Weirda Weirda was on SISI testing the changes last night. If there were even 1/3 of the ppl on SisI as there are whining on this thread - maybe it would be worth a listen. All Weirda see is people who have misunderstood a majority of what was posted about changes.
FFS - there is no "nerf" on tachs (except a few points of damage at long range) - megapulse optimal was cut by 29% (not the crystals, which actually go farther now with radio) - Be Weirda's guest if you want to use the 1400s on you apoc again, you'll find that you doing much less damage then you would with lasers
Weirda specialize in Amarr and Matari ships/weapons - and will continue to do so. The advantages of lasers are so countless - will not even go into that, suffice to say that short range projectiles are more fun...
Also - try going out with a full setup of dual heavy pulse... they track VERY well and are even easier to support a good tank with... With the range nerf to megapulse - you may be pleasantly surprised...
Either way Lallante - Weirda sad that you (and so many others) are so upset, but it just seem so reactionary that it hard to take seriously. There were 6 people on SiSi last night... 6... vs the 600 that are whining all over the forums about these changes...
you really are weird.
|
Weirda
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 19:20:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Xavier Cardde
you really are weird.
Weirda uses best Inspector Clouseau voice: "But of course...."
...and by the way - it better to have no beans in you bag then to have no bag for you beans... -- Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSION> |
Dianabolic
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 19:47:00 -
[67]
Lall - the amarr aren't damage dealers, they're tanks. When / if CCP ever give the other races the ability to tank like the apoc can then we can consider giving the apoc / amarr dmg bonuses (tho the ROF bonus is damage, really) but, until then, this seems pretty balanced from what I've seen.
|
Tisti
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 19:59:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Xavier Cardde THE RAVEN, that god awful thing outclasses amarr at any range under 50km.
nerf the missiles if we are soooooo nerf happy.
Now theres a problem... Maybe it can... BUT.. not under 50km.. maybe under 20kms since whats stoping the geddon from WARPING (yes.. WARP). And a geddon can EASILY kill a raven over 60kms BEFORE it CAN WARP if its tank isnt right..
|
Moneta
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 20:09:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Moneta on 03/03/2005 20:15:45
Originally by: Lallante -30% less dmg and lower range?
Yes of course thats a problem.
You dont get Long range guns and them use them at short range you know.
Lallante, you ahvent been paying attention.
Where does it say tachs do 30% less damage ? PULSES GOT 30% less OPTIMAL, the GUNS, not the crystals.
The one and ONLY damage change was to crystals. The second longest range crystal now has the damage and nearly the range of the previous radio crystal, while the radio crystal got slightly less damage but 10% extra optimal.
Other then that, not a single thing changed about beams and their long range usability.
Calm down already and read ffs tachs on teh apoc still pwn, which in itself is nuts since its not a damage dealer but he, lets not whine ok ? Originally by: Aneu Angellus Iv held back from posting on this thread for quite some time, but i think the time had come for me to come in and post.
Aneu
|
Selim
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 20:17:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Selim on 03/03/2005 20:20:58 Edited by: Selim on 03/03/2005 20:19:52 Radio gets 1.6 range now, iron and carbonized lead get 1.5.
The fact that lasers have their damage built in, and don't even need damage bonuses to be equal, means the amarr can get free bonuses like 5% extra cap and whatnot.
I don't see how lasers are useless at all. If anything they're still a bit too powerful compared to their ease of fitting.
EM damage is best against tanks. And best against shields so that balances it out against armor.
Tachyons are still going to rule, and now they'll even outrange 1400's, the supposed long-range kings, while still doing great damage. Go figure.
Lasers have SO MANY ADVANTAGES it makes me sick. Like weirda said, go onto Sisi and try it out for yourself, lasers are still crazy. Zealot is still crazy, apoc is still crazy, etc.
|
|
Alowishus
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 20:19:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Xavier Cardde you really are weird.
Weirda is weird but she always posts thoughtfully in a friendly and non-advisarial way. Most people in these forums could probably learn from that.
Alowishus is a Weirda fanboy
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
GsDaddy
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 21:44:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Xavier Cardde THE RAVEN, that god awful thing outclasses amarr at any range under 50km.
Maybe if the Amarr pilot were a STAIN, that would be true.
The rest of Eve doesn't put newbies who don't know how to warp into battleships.
|
Val Amon
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 21:44:00 -
[73]
Kinda wish I would've built 2 more ravens instead of the 6 apocs I have in different regions and choke points now. _ _ How many pilots does it take to wire a Flux Capacitor? 3, 1 to wire it and 2 to talk about how the old one was better. |
Dred 'Morte
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 22:00:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Toran Mehtar OMGWTFBBQ! Amarr might no longer be the best at every range in every fight ! 'Sploit !
/sarcasm.
caldari, missiles...
|
Kinsy
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 22:03:00 -
[75]
Right, ive actually tried these out against some NPCs. Heres some facts for a change.
My skills aren't uber great. I have Sharpshooter III, Large Energy III, Surgical Strike III. Currently that translates to:-
Radio - 37km Optimal Infrared - 25km Optimal Ultraviolet - 20km Optimal Xray - 17km Optimal Multifreq - 11km Optimal.
A Mega Modulated laser has:-
Radio - 44km Infrared - 31km Ultraviolet - 24km Xray - 20km Multifreq - 13km
Problems:- 1. The falloff after optimal is horrendous on every crystal. 2. Hits at 11km and below are difficult to obtain.
Therefore, either reduce the optimal to -20% previous, OR increase the tracking so the Mega Pulse is a bit more blaster-like. Id much prefer the first one, 30% is too much and i feel like CCP are trying to turn them into a poor man's blaster.
Good things:- 1. Damage still stays the same. 2. Tracking hasn't been nerfed!
|
CLONE 9
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 22:53:00 -
[76]
Quote: Lasers arnt meant to be the 'i win' button.
No Hakera - they are supposed to be the 'you lose' button
|
Crux Australis
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 22:54:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Kinsy Radio - 37km Optimal
Originally by: Kinsy increase the tracking so the Mega Pulse is a bit more blaster-like
Lol?
|
Eyeshadow
|
Posted - 2005.03.03 22:56:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Kinsy Right, ive actually tried these out against some NPCs. Heres some facts for a change.
My skills aren't uber great. I have Sharpshooter III, Large Energy III, Surgical Strike III. Currently that translates to:-
Radio - 37km Optimal Infrared - 25km Optimal Ultraviolet - 20km Optimal Xray - 17km Optimal Multifreq - 11km Optimal.
A Mega Modulated laser has:-
Radio - 44km Infrared - 31km Ultraviolet - 24km Xray - 20km Multifreq - 13km
Problems:- 1. The falloff after optimal is horrendous on every crystal. 2. Hits at 11km and below are difficult to obtain.
Therefore, either reduce the optimal to -20% previous, OR increase the tracking so the Mega Pulse is a bit more blaster-like. Id much prefer the first one, 30% is too much and i feel like CCP are trying to turn them into a poor man's blaster.
Good things:- 1. Damage still stays the same. 2. Tracking hasn't been nerfed!
show me a heavy blaster that can hit for decent dmg at 20km and ill give ur megapulse the extra tracking
Blasters are the close range gun, along with autocannons. MP arent close range, they are mid range, therefor they have decent dmg, mid range, reasonable tracking. Blasters are close range, therefor they (SHOULD) have excellent dmg, crap range, excellent tracking. If you gave MP the tracking of blasters, there would be no point in blasters (like there isnt atm, how many people fly a blasterthron these days?)
as far as i can tell, beams and tachs are relatively untouched by the ammo changes, and have nothing to do with the megapulse change at all so i dont really understand what this thread is about
Forums: Sharks - MC |
Kinsy
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 00:22:00 -
[79]
Okay, another one.
Where does the Dual Heavy Pulse laser now sit in all this?
|
Skelator
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 00:32:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Xavier Cardde
Originally by: Toran Mehtar OMGWTFBBQ! Amarr might no longer be the best at every range in every fight ! 'Sploit !
/sarcasm.
THE RAVEN, that god awful thing outclasses amarr at any range under 50km.
nerf the missiles if we are soooooo nerf happy.
How many Shots per laser ccan you get in lets say 12 seconds? How long does it take your fired energy beam to hit its target.. Its instantaneous. Missles and torp have Travel time and can be OUTRUN . Can I outrun your energy weapon after it has been fired?
They have us Surrounded again.. the Poor Bastards |
|
Niki Silver
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 00:47:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Originally by: Lallante Ravens are much more of a problem.
Guess which ship is next in line
That is going to be sooo sweet
|
Niki Silver
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 00:57:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Alowishus Edited by: Alowishus on 03/03/2005 18:18:01 Neat, CCP are back to square one. We've come full circle since I started playing. Projectiles are the ub3rest, the Apoc has ZERO insentive to use lasers over projectiles and Amarrians are going to whine in sixty seven threads per day.
Stupidity is not learning from your mistakes. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. $30 a month for stupid insanity. Awesome. I'm glad these people have my CC numbers.
Sure the lasers could have used some adjustment, maybe, but nerfing them to dust? CCP honestly has the time to nerf and boost projectiles/lasers every six months with so many other problems? GREAT! Glad to know what my money is paying for.
"Mabye"? Sorry for such a harsh statement but anyone who fails to recognize that mega pulses needed a balance are being ignorant and refusing to admit the simple truth. And "nerfed into dust" Erm, not even close to dust. Still quite useful in fact. Why do poeple say everything is now useless when it gets balanced? So before change - it's overpowered uber god mode, but after change it's totally worthless? I don't think so.
|
TWD
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 01:38:00 -
[83]
For a short range weapon, the Mega Pulse still has a very nice range and good enough tracking. You could use a webby to make sure the gun hits.
When looking at the tabel posted by Hammerhead you'll see that Radio crystals actually give 62.5% range bonus, while the top range of hybrid/projectile ammo is 50%
The Microwave crystal gives 50% range bonus, and deals the same damage as the top ranged hybrid/projectile ammo.
So far Hammerhead has done a VERY good job in balancing and explains it very clear. |
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 02:01:00 -
[84]
Having tested the changes.
Multifreq MegaPulse has optimal of 12km.
At 12km, it cant track a BS moving perpendicular.
Thats really good....honest.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
KamiCrazy
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 02:09:00 -
[85]
Edited by: KamiCrazy on 04/03/2005 02:11:34 With the current stats, my ion blasters with anti matter can't hit anything at its optimal either. Whats your point?
EDIT: and lets not even get to neutron blasters... lol... comparing ion's to megapulse.
|
Redwolf
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 02:13:00 -
[86]
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Question2 Beams were never overpowered to begin with?Thats funny,then why do their stats ingame say they have superior stats to howitzers/rails?Funny that.
The idea was that most Amarr ships don't get an RoF or Damage bonus. Most, not all. So for example Mega Beams or Tachs, which may have better base stats compared to 1400's, are roughly equivalent when mount on an Apoc (no bonuses) versus 1400's on a Tempest (bonuses).
Which lacks balance cause the proj uses no cap.
|
Shirei
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 02:19:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Redwolf Which lacks balance cause the proj uses no cap.
Which is compensated by the fact that minmatar ships generally have less cap than laser-using ones.
|
Redwolf
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 02:20:00 -
[88]
Originally by: CLONE 9
Quote: Lasers arnt meant to be the 'i win' button.
No Hakera - they are supposed to be the 'you lose' button
They still will be.
|
Redwolf
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 02:24:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Shirei
Originally by: Redwolf Which lacks balance cause the proj uses no cap.
Which is compensated by the fact that minmatar ships generally have less cap than laser-using ones.
Have you got any clue how 50-60 cap per shot impacts on amarrs much bigger cap reserves?
|
GFLTorque
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 02:32:00 -
[90]
Also note that Microwave, Infrared, and Radio did exactly the same damage for approximately 66% of the total range of Radio. Herein, this rendered the MW and IF useless. Why use them if the Radio did the same damage BUT also went even further out distance wise.
Hammerheads changes seem extremely well thought out imo. The megapulse is going from being the all around energy weapon of choice to actually one that fits a niche. I can understand the comments about tracking, but as was told often to Projectile users, just use some mid slots for tracking modules.
These projected changes seem on the money from what I've tested so far. They bring the gun class in line. No longer will the best cap utilizer, best armour tank, have the best medium range weapon with excellent tracking. These changes seem appropriate and measured imo.
4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
|
|
Shirei
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 02:35:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Redwolf Have you got any clue how 50-60 cap per shot impacts on amarrs much bigger cap reserves?
Thanks for asking, but until recently I have mostly been PvPing in Amarr BS and never had any significant problems with running out of cap due to the guns' cap consumption (except in isolated scenarios like shooting at a conquerable station for ages).
Yes, of course, you won't be able to sustain both a decent tank and all lasers forever without gimping your set-up by fitting nothing but cap rechargers/relays in the spare slots, but you have the same situation (not being able to sustain a tank forever) on all other BS as well - including Caldari and Minmatar ships which use no cap for weapons.
|
Jadunandan
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 02:41:00 -
[92]
Seriously. Stop b i t c h i n g.
Aww, my ship isn't doing the highest damage anymore! Who cares about the other advantages?
Please, just stop. I'll do the same, so noone tell me to stfu.
|
Question2
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 03:09:00 -
[93]
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Question2 Beams were never overpowered to begin with?Thats funny,then why do their stats ingame say they have superior stats to howitzers/rails?Funny that.
The idea was that most Amarr ships don't get an RoF or Damage bonus. Most, not all. So for example Mega Beams or Tachs, which may have better base stats compared to 1400's, are roughly equivalent when mount on an Apoc (no bonuses) versus 1400's on a Tempest (bonuses).
You mean the idea was that amaar weapons got the FREE 25% at ship level 5 damage/rof/tracking/whatever bonuses AND cap use/armor tanking bonuses on top of that?
Why does this not sound balanced to me?
|
Zyrla Bladestorm
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 03:31:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Lallante Having tested the changes.
Multifreq MegaPulse has optimal of 12km.
At 12km, it cant track a BS moving perpendicular.
Thats really good....honest.
You had a webber plugged in for that range right ? now that they are 15k range.
Most blaster and autocannon pilots use webbers to hit decently at there ranges too.
Amarr do not get one less bonus -
Lasers have higher cap use and a cap bonus on the amarr ships to make them unattractive on other races ships. Projectiles have reduced damage and a damage bonus on the ships to make them unattractive on other races ships. Blasters have the shortest range and need there damage bonus from gallente ships to be the best at said shortest range, it can be argued they also need the tracking bonus to hit at said range. . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
|
Blind Fear
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 03:42:00 -
[95]
What about the poor little crusader and these upcoming changes? How come you can fit rails/howitzers on other ceptors, but you cant fit beams of the crusader? You might be able to squeeze them on if you fit 2 MAPC, then your setup cant be cap mantainable even with the best cap skills. With these upcoming changes to the pulse CCP should tweak amarr ships.
|
Selim
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 04:17:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Selim on 04/03/2005 04:17:28 Megapulse with 12km optimal with multifrequency, yay. Now they can still hit further than me with short range and still hit very far with radio.
Try fitting a web or stop getting close. Nothing else can hit jack **** when something is moving perpendicular to it, why should megapulse?
By the way, whats wrong with pulse on a crusader after the changes? Works fine for me.
|
RollinDutchMasters
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 04:37:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Blind Fear What about the poor little crusader and these upcoming changes? How come you can fit rails/howitzers on other ceptors, but you cant fit beams of the crusader? You might be able to squeeze them on if you fit 2 MAPC, then your setup cant be cap mantainable even with the best cap skills. With these upcoming changes to the pulse CCP should tweak amarr ships.
Yeah, the crusader takes it in the shorts thanks to the lower range on pulses and the absurd fitting for a frigate sized gun (18 grid? damn). The malediction should still be quite effective.
I think making the beams easier to fit would be a decent idea. Drop the damage mod to 2.5, up the range to 12k and give it a fitting more like 12mw. Of course, those are numbers that I'm pulling out of my ass, so they probably need modification to not be horribly under or over-powered.
Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
|
Selim
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 04:40:00 -
[98]
The beams are too hard to fit, but I think the pulse are still quite effective. In any event, making the friggy beams easier to fit would stop alot of the whining going on around here, and it would also let me actually do something at high ranges on a vengeance.
|
Phades
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 04:44:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Phades on 04/03/2005 05:29:15 Nah on the smaller end you basically end up with the same argument that megathron pilots have with neutrons, the ship is left with only one available and somewhat effective option that lacks in comparison to the other races most effective weaponry. It will end up being relegated to the dual light beam laser in this instance assuming the changes stay as they are.
*Begins getting psyched up about doing ~5 damage per laser using radio crysals on dual beams to unhardened armor at around 24km. Yeah i know my skills arent the best.
|
mahhy
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 08:17:00 -
[100]
Originally by: GFLTorque Hammerheads changes seem extremely well thought out imo. The megapulse is going from being the all around energy weapon of choice to actually one that fits a niche. I can understand the comments about tracking, but as was told often to Projectile users, just use some mid slots for tracking modules.
Only ship that should be using MP anyhow is the geddon, and part of the "standard" fit is a tracking comp, or two
|
|
Inquisitor Nyxos
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 10:35:00 -
[101]
I think you guys need to chill, there's a test server, go there and prove CCP wrong. Problem solved.
(\_/) (X.x) This is dead bunny.It has been intercepted and shot down in Amarr space by patrolling Navy forces.Its soul has been cast to hell and the remains will serve as snack for the emperor. |
Caya
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 10:47:00 -
[102]
i would never belive i agreed with Lallante. But i have to now. :-) The lack of amarr ship bonus really hurts and should be counted in discussions. What i dont agree... its not death of those ships, there is always setup which can win the battle.
|
Gabriel Karade
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 10:52:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 04/03/2005 10:55:23
Originally by: Lallante Having tested the changes.
Multifreq MegaPulse has optimal of 12km.
At 12km, it cant track a BS moving perpendicular.
Thats really good....honest.
What speed? What modules was the other ship using, were tracking disrupters in use?
Saying a Megapulse can't hit a Battleship moving perpendicular at 12km is nonsense
Base Tracking:
0.027 rads/sec
no skills: 324m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl4 Motion prediction: 389 m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl4 motion prediction + 1 TechI tracking computer: 467 m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl5 motion prediction +1 Tech II tracking computer: 526.5m/sec, 50 % hit chance
In short, megapulses will hit a BS at 12km even if the oppposing ship is using an Afterburner you will still hit more than 50% with 1 tracking computer fitted.
So far your threads have consisted of ôThe sky is falling!ö It is not, lasers are going to be fine. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
Selim
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 11:04:00 -
[104]
Is there ever going to be something done to make the armageddon harder to fit? Nobody can deny that a gankageddon is incredibly easy to fit, powergrid and CPU wise. No other tier one, or even tier two's for the most part, can fit a full rack of the best damaging guns available. Amarr battleships are way too easy to fit powergrid wise compared to other races, and CPU is usually not a problem, either.
I'd like 6 800mms and 2 siege launchers with a decent tank please.
|
Captain Rod
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 11:53:00 -
[105]
too right APOC could fit 8 x heavy neutron blaster IIs no probs. Would need little or no power boosting to fit a tank on top.
Don't worry about the changes to MP ladies. Test it. I bet geddons still pwn.
|
mahhy
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 12:00:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Selim Is there ever going to be something done to make the armageddon harder to fit? Nobody can deny that a gankageddon is incredibly easy to fit, powergrid and CPU wise. No other tier one, or even tier two's for the most part, can fit a full rack of the best damaging guns available. Amarr battleships are way too easy to fit powergrid wise compared to other races, and CPU is usually not a problem, either.
I'd like 6 800mms and 2 siege launchers with a decent tank please.
A gank'a'geddon may be easy to fit, but with the new lower ranges of MP its not going to be nearly as effective. It'll still work of course, but its not going to be the only answer anymore. Fitting an Arma with a moderate tank and anything other MP, if for example you want more range now, is hard. And yah, CPU can be a real problem on geddons.
Anyhow, no changes to the Arma. It deals nice damage, and now if you want to hit things outside 10-15km you've got to use lesser damaging crystals. Take that into account with the reduced thermal and increased EM damage of the crystals and IMO I think we're going to see everything a bit more balanced.
|
Deros
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 12:16:00 -
[107]
imo the changes appear to be good, the responses from those who have actually gone and test them seem positive, those with lasers simply are used to being able to pwn anything that they want.
Deros
|
Kaylona Tso
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 12:40:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Deros imo the changes appear to be good, the responses from those who have actually gone and test them seem positive, those with lasers simply are used to being able to pwn anything that they want.
Deros
Can't blame the ugly bastards for roleplaying their race well. -----
|
Riggwelter
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 12:55:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Lallante
In PvP there is no such balance. NOONE runs out of cap in fleet combat, you run out of structure or you run out of ammo, NEVER Cap.
I would LOVE to pay 2x the cap for lasers if I got a 5% per level dmg bonus on the apoc. If you think those 2 bonus's are equivilent, can we swap out some of the dmg bonus's on your ships too?
You dont think the fact you dont have to carry ammo and therfore can never run out is a major hidden bonus for amar ships. They who shout the loudest normally have the least to say. |
Riggwelter
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 13:03:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Lallante -30% less dmg and lower range?
Yes of course thats a problem.
You dont get Long range guns and them use them at short range you know.
1400mm Tracking 0.0090 Tachy Tracking 1.0139
You have more than 30% better tracking so youre not going to miss anywhere as much as 1400. They who shout the loudest normally have the least to say. |
|
Lucre
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 13:05:00 -
[111]
Originally by: ErrorS "I Amarr, use to be good. Now I Amarr, am balanced with everyone else" switch the race with another one, add a 10 page thread with whining and you get to see a bit of history. Not one race hasn't done it already and we will probably all do it again.
Do you remember the first great laser nerf? When we moaned for months and months that it had been overdone and were mostly flying with rails and projectiles on our Apocs? Until *eventually* they gave lasers some loving again.
Do you remember the great large turret nerf? When people moaned for months and months that large projectiles were now useless, and you couldn't give away Tempest Bpc's? Until *eventually* they gave the projectiles some loving again.
Just for once, could we hope that they listen to the people affected *before* a great nerf? And that for once we wouldn't have to wait another 9 months or more before the "loving stick" [ooh-er!] gets waved over the current over-nerfed victim?
|
meowcat
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 13:09:00 -
[112]
they still outdamage blasters at a longer range.
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
Kayinan Malrean
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 13:36:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Lucre Do you remember the great large turret nerf? When people moaned for months and months that large projectiles were now useless, and you couldn't give away Tempest Bpc's? Until *eventually* they gave the projectiles some loving again.
Oh, I do remember. I started the game and immediately fitted Projectile guns into my Punisher after seeing how crappy the lasers were. Then to Maller. For Apoc I used 425mm Rails, because there just wasn't any point in using the lasers.
Do we see Mega Pulses in Tempests? Megathrons? Domis? Don't think the way quite a few Amarr ships were using non-laser turrets back then.
Well. It's just a bit over a month to learn the proj specs for 1400mm. After that Apoc should be ok again.
Quote: Just for once, could we hope that they listen to the people affected *before* a great nerf? And that for once we wouldn't have to wait another 9 months or more before the "loving stick" [ooh-er!] gets waved over the current over-nerfed victim?
Next victim is already in the sights. This run it's Arma, Apoc and Amarr HACs that suffer. In two months they'll nerf Raven for being the big soppy noob ship it is for lvl4 missions.
After that it'll be propably quiet for a while, while everyone's busy switching skills to projectiles to be able to do even some damage. Then it's time to nerf those projectiles, again.
Hybrids, otoh, will just be forgotten, as nobody's really using those Gallente Battleships anyways. They're a bit like Apocs after the last laser nerf, good for expensive mining ships.
-- God I love pointless ranting.
|
Elve Sorrow
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 13:39:00 -
[114]
- would just like to point out that being able to tank well gives you a whooping additional ~4 seconds before you die in a fleetbattle.
/Elve
New Video out! Watch me!
|
fras
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 13:55:00 -
[115]
Edited by: fras on 04/03/2005 14:03:00 A crusader can fit a full rack of dual light beam II's ok for added range, of course they have less tracking than DLP but i've not tested them in pvp since the new Crusader tracking bonus. They could work. Mind you if the 15km webs go ahead I'm increasingly thinking ranged frigate combat might be less effective/less popular anyway(hello taranis).
It's a difficult one, I do think the megapulse needs tweaking & after some testing last night I think the changes are fair(and i have specialized in lasers). What I don't like though is that this change nerfs every pulse weapon on every ship.
I know that large weapons derive from small weapons etc but is it a golden rule? Why not treat the BS class separately?
Does anyone really think pulses are overpowered for frigates and cruisers atm? I don't.
|
Discorporation
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 14:13:00 -
[116]
Bye bye Zealot, Bye bye Sacriledge Helo vagabond, I think I'm gonna cryy-yyy Bye bye my zealot goodbye There goes my baby it's nerfed to poo She sure looked happy I sure look blue
Roy Orbison ftw.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
|
Novarei
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 14:24:00 -
[117]
dam glad my geddon insurance is up soon
+--------------------------------------------+
|
Kaylana Syi
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 16:56:00 -
[118]
The armageddon and typphoon are timeless ships. No matter how the game changes they will always own. Its just the armageddon has seen the greenest side of the pasture for FAR TOO LONG. Kill its RoF bonus, give it an armor or falloff bonus, and leave lasers alone. Classic CCP overkilling when they should be looking for minor tweakage. -------------------- The Nest
|
Meridius
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 18:25:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi The armageddon and typphoon are timeless ships. No matter how the game changes they will always own. Its just the armageddon has seen the greenest side of the pasture for FAR TOO LONG. Kill its RoF bonus, give it an armor or falloff bonus, and leave lasers alone. Classic CCP overkilling when they should be looking for minor tweakage.
Agreed.
Nerf the geddon. That 40page nerf megapulse thread was made to nerf bs sized pulses, anyone stating otherwise is 100% wrong.
________________________________________________________
|
DARKKK
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 19:19:00 -
[120]
i wonder why they go to extremes... they could do it slower... but in the end missiles are still uber and there has nothing been done about that.
|
|
GFLTorque
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 19:19:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Kaylona Tso
Originally by: Deros imo the changes appear to be good, the responses from those who have actually gone and test them seem positive, those with lasers simply are used to being able to pwn anything that they want.
Deros
Can't blame the ugly bastards for roleplaying their race well.
Classic ! Stop this thread now, the above line can't be matched!! 4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
|
Jack Birrent
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 19:29:00 -
[122]
<IC>
Cry babies! Cry me a river, you Amarr scums! Now you can have a taste what I felt, when you took my beloved rupture away. |
RollinDutchMasters
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 19:33:00 -
[123]
Originally by: DAR*** i wonder why they go to extremes... they could do it slower... but in the end missiles are still uber and there has nothing been done about that.
I am astonished that people consider a 30% loss in optimal and some damage rebalancing from long to medium ranged crystals extreme.
What would have been a 'slower' change? Drop the optimal by 100m every 6 months until its balanced?
Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
|
Cummilla
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 20:21:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Lallante A Deimos can chew up a sacrilege.
Interesting stuff in this thread. Mostly whines \0/ 4tw
But the above little nugget was good for a laff :) I give a deimos 60 secs against a smartly kitted out Sac....somewhere between 60 and 90 seconds, the deimos' cap will be gone against my Sac and modules will start to power off :)
But with all these whines about how the apoc is doomed, you did give me what I think is a brilliant alternate use for an Apoc.....which I would share with you but then I'd have to kill you
|
Judas Jones
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 20:24:00 -
[125]
As it stand's, when the next changes come into effect it will be very difficult to exact any kind of armor damage, that's where the real issue is gonna lie for me. It's not gonna be range as much although that is always a factor it's the simeple fact that the new crystal's are geared primarily for eM damage, since most if not all ships in the game, (playr wise) have a natural tendancy of at least 60% EM resistant on armor, it suddenly becomes very difficult to penetrate. Waht it need's is for a crystal that is geared for armor penetration, and no, multi and Gamma no longer can serve that role, you doubt this then you check them out on test server, I have.
I'm not whining or crying over my beloved Mega Pulses, don't use them as a rule, but this crystal shift will frell up my beams considerably, I'd swop my cap bonus on the apoc for a rof or damge bonus anyday. Only way to get anykind of Armor damage against either player or NPC is to use Torps Wait, what's that? Ahh yes, they are nerfing Missiles too.
Just me thought's.
|
Kaeten
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 21:06:00 -
[126]
Amarr still kickass, take alook on the test server, all i see are apocs and armageddons ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante |
Kaeten
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 21:07:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Kaeten on 04/03/2005 21:08:42
Originally by: Judas Jones Ahh yes, they are nerfing Missiles too.
HUH???? Are they huhhuh?? I hope they are (not nerfing but balancing) Wiee they are fixing everything, I hope gallante is next on list (425mm rails, CAP) :D ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante |
Meridius
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 21:12:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Cummilla
Originally by: Lallante A Deimos can chew up a sacrilege.
Interesting stuff in this thread. Mostly whines \0/ 4tw
But the above little nugget was good for a laff :) I give a deimos 60 secs against a smartly kitted out Sac....somewhere between 60 and 90 seconds, the deimos' cap will be gone against my Sac and modules will start to power off :)
But with all these whines about how the apoc is doomed, you did give me what I think is a brilliant alternate use for an Apoc.....which I would share with you but then I'd have to kill you
If you use a Suckrilege, your damage output with heavy missles V and 3 heavy arbs is 58DPS.
A Taranis does around 200+DPS.
Basically, that deimos can log off by the time it takes you to kill him.
________________________________________________________
|
Judas Jones
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 21:14:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Kaeten Edited by: Kaeten on 04/03/2005 21:08:42
Originally by: Judas Jones Ahh yes, they are nerfing Missiles too.
HUH???? Are they huhhuh?? I hope they are (not nerfing but balancing) Wiee they are fixing everything, I hope gallante is next on list (425mm rails, CAP) :D
The missiles have been on the 'overhaul' list for some time, just hope they release the Tech 2 stuff along the same time.
Theres no poin though nerfing all weapons to make them as crap as each other, people complained cos the amarr weapons were more powerul than theres, well, so? If minny weapons were (and after the changes) more effective once trainned then surely they would not have been subjurgated by the amarr in the first place? It's nice having balance, but if you go to far then what's the point of having different types of weaponry that's race orientated. Can you imagine the outcry the Jovian wepaons are uber, they have twice the rof, nerf them, nerf, them.
As it stands, once you nerf or overhaul the amarr and Caldari, the Minny might as well launch a full scale invasion since our laser won't do squat, in fact that could be there inte......err nothing.
|
fras
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 21:16:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Kaeten Amarr still kickass, take alook on the test server, all i see are apocs and armageddons
is that a joke?
|
|
Cummilla
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 21:22:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Cummilla
Originally by: Lallante A Deimos can chew up a sacrilege.
Interesting stuff in this thread. Mostly whines \0/ 4tw
But the above little nugget was good for a laff :) I give a deimos 60 secs against a smartly kitted out Sac....somewhere between 60 and 90 seconds, the deimos' cap will be gone against my Sac and modules will start to power off :)
But with all these whines about how the apoc is doomed, you did give me what I think is a brilliant alternate use for an Apoc.....which I would share with you but then I'd have to kill you
If you use a Suckrilege, your damage output with heavy missles V and 3 heavy arbs is 58DPS.
A Taranis does around 200+DPS.
Basically, that deimos can log off by the time it takes you to kill him.
Come come...let's not derail this in a "log off" thread :p
|
Lallante
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 21:33:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Cummilla
Originally by: Lallante A Deimos can chew up a sacrilege.
Interesting stuff in this thread. Mostly whines \0/ 4tw
But the above little nugget was good for a laff :) I give a deimos 60 secs against a smartly kitted out Sac....somewhere between 60 and 90 seconds, the deimos' cap will be gone against my Sac and modules will start to power off :)
But with all these whines about how the apoc is doomed, you did give me what I think is a brilliant alternate use for an Apoc.....which I would share with you but then I'd have to kill you
This is the most stupid arguement ever. If I fit 2 Amarr Jammers and a Warp Disruptor and Webber on a Griffin it doesnt make it better than a Zealot, but it can still kill it.
A Suckrilege is not a useful setup for most situations...
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
|
Apollo Balthar
|
Posted - 2005.03.04 23:33:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Redwolf
Originally by: Shirei
Originally by: Redwolf Which lacks balance cause the proj uses no cap.
Which is compensated by the fact that minmatar ships generally have less cap than laser-using ones.
Have you got any clue how 50-60 cap per shot impacts on amarrs much bigger cap reserves?
Have you any clue about how a 10 sec reload time hits your ROF ? Its meant to "reload" cap from time to time.
|
Jack Malone
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 00:53:00 -
[134]
Omg!, i can't belive i just read through all this crap!
5 or 6 posts that actually back up their argument with facts based on testing on SiSi, out of how many??..... Ye Gods! |
DJTheBaron
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 01:08:00 -
[135]
i cant believe you *******s are *****ing about the laser changes, theyr enot likley to be perfect, whatever ccp touches rarley is, but for gods sake the current megapulse use is practicially an exploit, missiles will come next, then freaky ewar changes, mabye a hybrid and drone one too, just deal with it, you knew it was overpowered from the start __________________________________________________
Scum, your all scum. |
qyros
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 01:33:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Lallante Having tested the changes.
Multifreq MegaPulse has optimal of 12km.
At 12km, it cant track a BS moving perpendicular.
Thats really good....honest.
lol
Yes it is. Welcome to the wonderful world of tracking and transversal speed.
I assume most people used pulse lasers or missiles to evade the tracking system.
But face it, tracking is a game feature. Like it or not, badly implemented or not.
The pulse lasers in their current state largely undermine the tracking system and allow to ignore it, except at very close range.
mega pulse: 0.027 x 1.2 x 12,000m = 388.8 m/s dual 650mm: 0.048 x 1.2 x 6,750m = 388.8 m/s ____________________
Originally by: Judas Jones As it stand's, when the next changes come into effect it will be very difficult to exact any kind of armor damage, that's where the real issue is gonna lie for me ....
megathron tanked: emp 60% therm 67.5% kin 67.5% explo 55%
new microwave l (16 emp 8 therm): 9 carbonized lead (12 explo 12 kin): 9.3 new iron (12 kin 12 therm): 7.8
new multifrequency (28 em 20 therm): 17.7 emp l (emp 20 explo 16 kin 8): 17.8 new antimatter l ( 8 kin 40 therm): 15.6
|
Kinsy
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 01:45:00 -
[137]
Ok fine, the range nerf isnt so much of a problem.
The only thing i do with my Apoc is solo lvl4's (and its not easy), the nerf will mean warping in at 60km and taking out a Conquistador's tank will not be possible (they like to stay at 40km where i used to use IR)...yes here we go 'lvl4's were never meant to be done solo' - well they are and its a fact of life, get used to it. Lvl5's will be here soon and they will sort that out...Im a Caldari and i can fly a Raven anytime but i don't see the fun in that. As it stands if the missions deadspace i have to call for back up anyway.
The crystal changes as people have stated are stupid, we dont need any more EM damage and we struggle with armor tanks as it is! It makes far more sense to atleast leave the damage as they are. After all its very easy to tank thermal as it is.
If not that then please consider increasing the damage for long range crystals - id be happy to see the damage gap between crystals reduce so that lasers do less damage short range but were not in the situation where Radio does 6.5HP/s - more like 8 and the MF is lower.
Either way ill now go for beam specialisation instead of pulse after these changes.
|
Overlord Agnew
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 10:46:00 -
[138]
I can fly a geddon and apoc, but primarily a prophecy. To be quite honest I don't see Heavy Pulses as being that great in the first place. Now my skills aren't the best as I only have Medium Lasers 3 and BC 2, and at those skills they are not that great. I do think that the armageddon is overpowered, because with my basic skills (most skills at lvl 4 for eng/elec w/ BS 2 ) I don't have any problems with megapulses on the geddon that I have with Heavy pulses on the prophecy. Furthermore, megapulses on the apoc don't work like megapulses do on the geddon. Geddon is far superior for low skills compared to lower classed ships AND higher classed ships. It is the tier 2 BS imho, not the apoc.
|
Helmut 314
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 14:17:00 -
[139]
I cant get how anyone fails to see that a 30% drop in optimal range of a gun is a major disadvantage. It doesnt matter that much on Megapulse, that gun will still work, not as well as before, but it will be useable. The small and medium guns are getting hurt a lot worse this way.
All numbers below are based on standard tech 1 weapons. No skills or ship bonuses applied.
Base optimal of a dual light pulse laser will drop from 6300m to around 4500m. With a falloff of 1500m that means that the effective range with standard crystals will be between 3000 and 6000m instead of 4700 to 7800m. With MF crystal you get an optimal of 2250 and a effective range of 750 - 3750 m.
Now, light ion blasters have an optimal of 1250m and a falloff of 2000m. With AM ammo they have an optimal of 675m and an effective range of 0-2675m.
ROF is 0.3 sec better on the laser, the blaster has 0.117 rad better tracking, 0.8125 better damage mod on the blaster, 0.09 cap more per shot for the pulse laser. Reloading time is not an issue except on very long engagements.
Damage over 60 seconds from a light ion : 675 Damage over 60 seconds from a dual light pulse : 532.8
Now, factor in tracking, ship bonuses, skills etc.
Which gun would you choose ? Oh, and numbers for the Medium pulse I vs the Light Neutron blaster I are similar...
___________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson |
Dianabolic
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 14:22:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Dred 'Morte caldari, missiles...
I'll take on any missile boat using a standard tank and equivalent skills at 40km or more and (in most situations) be well in to its armor by the time the first torp hits me. The flight time is a killer for missiles.
The only thing wrong with missiles is that they hit frigates (torps and cruise). Other than that, for all their other benefits, they're fine.
|
|
Lord Anubis
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 14:26:00 -
[141]
lol get over it, the only complant now i can see wtf i cant pwn a bs at 60K with my sort range wepons any more lol
welcome to the world of tracking as a projectile user im sure like i have you will learn to hate it
You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it
wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia |
Weirda
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 15:01:00 -
[142]
This thread has become about as useless as a flacid strap-on... -- Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSION> |
Hanns
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 15:04:00 -
[143]
i have to agree with Lallante, i am a Amarr pilot, i have spent many days and hours specializing in amarr interceptors, assault frigates, and heavy assault ships, and i also spent time learning laser specializastion skills.
now i admit the armageddon is overpowered, but TBH the rest of the amarr ships are pretty balanced, you dont hear people crying about zealots,crusaders retributions ect!! why? BECAUSE THE ARE FINE HOW THEY ARE!!
TBH this is going to totally **** up PVP in amarr ships, that were fine b4 this nerf!
This massive change all because of ONE ship is totally retarded
|
Stradivarious Hawke
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 15:23:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Discorporation Bye bye Zealot, Bye bye Sacriledge Helo vagabond, I think I'm gonna cryy-yyy Bye bye my zealot goodbye There goes my baby it's nerfed to poo She sure looked happy I sure look blue
Roy Orbison ftw.
HAHAHAHAHA
Not sure if it's true or not but this really made me laugh.
Nemo me impune lacessit |
Panzer Faust
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 15:56:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Hanns i have to agree with Lallante, i am a Amarr pilot, i have spent many days and hours specializing in amarr interceptors, assault frigates, and heavy assault ships, and i also spent time learning laser specializastion skills.
now i admit the armageddon is overpowered, but TBH the rest of the amarr ships are pretty balanced, you dont hear people crying about zealots,crusaders retributions ect!! why? BECAUSE THE ARE FINE HOW THEY ARE!!
TBH this is going to totally **** up PVP in amarr ships, that were fine b4 this nerf!
This massive change all because of ONE ship is totally retarded
My thoughts exactly. --- Proud Owner of a Navy Issue Raven. |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 17:13:00 -
[146]
thats sad whining guys
when you could read you would notice not much changes, execpt pulse lasers are not the too powerfull, just very powerfull anymore Wanna fly with me?
|
StinkFinger
|
Posted - 2005.03.05 23:47:00 -
[147]
Edited by: StinkFinger on 05/03/2005 23:47:48
Originally by: Nafri thats sad whining guys
when you could read you would notice not much changes, execpt pulse lasers are not the too powerfull, just very powerfull anymore
Wrong, pulse lasers now suck. 12km opt with multis? Can't hit crap at that range....and don't freaking say equip a webber.....amarr ships have limited midslots, they're not meant for EW.
Jeez, the problem with this game is basically summed up in this thread. We have a bunch of ignorant know-it-alls whining their heads off. Half of you don't fly amarr ships, yet you think you know what they need cuz your gimp mega/tempest setups got owned.
The only change needed for amarr is a nerf to the armageddons.
THAT'S IT. --
|
Shadowsword
|
Posted - 2005.03.06 00:32:00 -
[148]
Originally by: StinkFinger Edited by: StinkFinger on 05/03/2005 23:47:48
Originally by: Nafri thats sad whining guys
when you could read you would notice not much changes, execpt pulse lasers are not the too powerfull, just very powerfull anymore
Wrong, pulse lasers now suck. 12km opt with multis? Can't hit crap at that range....and don't freaking say equip a webber.....amarr ships have limited midslots, they're not meant for EW.
Jeez, the problem with this game is basically summed up in this thread. We have a bunch of ignorant know-it-alls whining their heads off. Half of you don't fly amarr ships, yet you think you know what they need cuz your gimp mega/tempest setups got owned.
The only change needed for amarr is a nerf to the armageddons.
THAT'S IT.
What the hell are you talking about? close range tracking has absolutely nothing to do with optimal, and as such post nerf tracking is the same that pre-nerf tracking. As for your statement that Amarr isn't supposed to need a web because they're not a EW heavy race, that's just ludicrous...
|
Gabriel Karade
|
Posted - 2005.03.06 00:43:00 -
[149]
Originally by: StinkFinger
Wrong, pulse lasers now suck. 12km opt with multis? Can't hit crap at that range....and don't freaking say equip a webber.....amarr ships have limited midslots, they're not meant for EW.
Jeez, the problem with this game is basically summed up in this thread. We have a bunch of ignorant know-it-alls whining their heads off. Half of you don't fly amarr ships, yet you think you know what they need cuz your gimp mega/tempest setups got owned.
The only change needed for amarr is a nerf to the armageddons.
THAT'S IT.
Perhaps you missed the real tracking numbers, so i'll post them again:
Quote: Base Tracking:
0.027 rads/sec
no skills: 324m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl4 Motion prediction: 389 m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl4 motion prediction + 1 TechI tracking computer: 467 m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl5 motion prediction +1 Tech II tracking computer: 526.5m/sec, 50 % hit chance
In short, megapulses will hit a BS at 12km even if the oppposing ship is using an Afterburner you will still hit more than 50% with 1 tracking computer fitted.
"Cant hit crap" *cough* *cough*... (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
StinkFinger
|
Posted - 2005.03.06 01:22:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: StinkFinger
Wrong, pulse lasers now suck. 12km opt with multis? Can't hit crap at that range....and don't freaking say equip a webber.....amarr ships have limited midslots, they're not meant for EW.
Jeez, the problem with this game is basically summed up in this thread. We have a bunch of ignorant know-it-alls whining their heads off. Half of you don't fly amarr ships, yet you think you know what they need cuz your gimp mega/tempest setups got owned.
The only change needed for amarr is a nerf to the armageddons.
THAT'S IT.
Perhaps you missed the real tracking numbers, so i'll post them again:
Quote: Base Tracking:
0.027 rads/sec
no skills: 324m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl4 Motion prediction: 389 m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl4 motion prediction + 1 TechI tracking computer: 467 m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl5 motion prediction +1 Tech II tracking computer: 526.5m/sec, 50 % hit chance
In short, megapulses will hit a BS at 12km even if the oppposing ship is using an Afterburner you will still hit more than 50% with 1 tracking computer fitted.
"Cant hit crap" *cough* *cough*...
Test it. Numbers mean jack squat until they're backed up in-game. As it stands now, at 12km megas don't have the tracking to consistently hit battleships that aren't webbed.
Originally by: Shadowsword
What the hell are you talking about? close range tracking has absolutely nothing to do with optimal, and as such post nerf tracking is the same that pre-nerf tracking. As for your statement that Amarr isn't supposed to need a web because they're not a EW heavy race, that's just ludicrous...
The further you are from your target, the higher chance you have to hit it, as long as it falls within the opt for your gun.
Follow me so far?
Now get closer to your target. Let's say 15km from a cruiser while using mega pulses. Can't hit as well as, say from 60km. Closer you get, the touhger it is to hit. Got that?
So as you can see, you're statement is completely ludicrous.
Now as for the ew comment...well an apoc with 4 mid slots and an arma with 3 have a tough time fitting a webber along with their tank and cap mods needed to keep it all running. I didn't say it wasn't possible, or that because they're not an ew race, they dont need them. Requiring one for using a mega with mutlis is simply weakening the class of ships even more..
Woo, amarr now is teh sux0r.
Good job. --
|
|
Tonya Nastee
|
Posted - 2005.03.06 01:44:00 -
[151]
He's a missile user, he doesn't (need to) understand tracking
Seriously though I get highly irritated when a full time missle user gives me a lecture on missiles thinking they are just click and hit (instantly)
Missiles are so prefect for agent running though.. fire and forget. One can only dream that they will be as nice after the fixing (nerfing), but they probably wont be
|
Zyrla Bladestorm
|
Posted - 2005.03.06 07:38:00 -
[152]
Originally by: StinkFinger
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: StinkFinger
Wrong, pulse lasers now suck. 12km opt with multis? Can't hit crap at that range....and don't freaking say equip a webber.....amarr ships have limited midslots, they're not meant for EW.
Jeez, the problem with this game is basically summed up in this thread. We have a bunch of ignorant know-it-alls whining their heads off. Half of you don't fly amarr ships, yet you think you know what they need cuz your gimp mega/tempest setups got owned.
The only change needed for amarr is a nerf to the armageddons.
THAT'S IT.
Perhaps you missed the real tracking numbers, so i'll post them again:
Quote: Base Tracking:
0.027 rads/sec
no skills: 324m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl4 Motion prediction: 389 m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl4 motion prediction + 1 TechI tracking computer: 467 m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl5 motion prediction +1 Tech II tracking computer: 526.5m/sec, 50 % hit chance
In short, megapulses will hit a BS at 12km even if the oppposing ship is using an Afterburner you will still hit more than 50% with 1 tracking computer fitted.
"Cant hit crap" *cough* *cough*...
Test it. Numbers mean jack squat until they're backed up in-game. As it stands now, at 12km megas don't have the tracking to consistently hit battleships that aren't webbed.
Originally by: Shadowsword
What the hell are you talking about? close range tracking has absolutely nothing to do with optimal, and as such post nerf tracking is the same that pre-nerf tracking. As for your statement that Amarr isn't supposed to need a web because they're not a EW heavy race, that's just ludicrous...
The further you are from your target, the higher chance you have to hit it, as long as it falls within the opt for your gun.
Follow me so far?
Now get closer to your target. Let's say 15km from a cruiser while using mega pulses. Can't hit as well as, say from 60km. Closer you get, the touhger it is to hit. Got that?
So as you can see, you're statement is completely ludicrous.
Now as for the ew comment...well an apoc with 4 mid slots and an arma with 3 have a tough time fitting a webber along with their tank and cap mods needed to keep it all running. I didn't say it wasn't possible, or that because they're not an ew race, they dont need them. Requiring one for using a mega with mutlis is simply weakening the class of ships even more..
Woo, amarr now is teh sux0r.
Good job.
One minute people complaining about the megapulse/crystal changes are saying that 1400's and 425 rails have massively better range and power because they have falloff, next minute we get people appearing to suggest its useless
going by that argument, large blasters have a 1.5k range with ~700 tracking, Autocannons have a 2k range with ~600 tracking and megapulse have a 12k range with ~350 tracking, considering hitting is proportional to range I'd still take the megapulse there myself. How is fitting a webber to an amarr BS weakening the whole class, but yet doing the same on minmatar/gallente ships - which only have one more mid slot, one less low slot at most, doing any different ? they still lose a cap recharger or cap relay in the process. Blasters eat more/very similar cap to megapulse and have smaller caps than amarr ships, Autocannons dont use much cap, but the min ships wind up needing more RCU than most to fit and having the weakest caps to start with - the suggestion that Amarr slots and cap recharge modules are more valuable than anyone elses is frankly ludicrous. . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
|
Altai Saker
|
Posted - 2005.03.06 08:51:00 -
[153]
This change really FUBARS small and medium guns...
Large need to be changed badly yes, but the smalls and mediums are fine... by reducing the range on the small guns you need to get in web range, and under web range blasters reign supreme... pulse lasers cant and should not compare... they should be 12-15km weapons...
Beams are 100% impossible to fit on amarr frigs because they eat too much grid and cpu.
|
Meridius
|
Posted - 2005.03.06 09:03:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Altai Saker This change really FUBARS small and medium guns...
Large need to be changed badly yes, but the smalls and mediums are fine... by reducing the range on the small guns you need to get in web range, and under web range blasters reign supreme... pulse lasers cant and should not compare... they should be 12-15km weapons...
Beams are 100% impossible to fit on amarr frigs because they eat too much grid and cpu.
Whats great is that this nerf affects megapulse the least. All i had to do was fit gamma crystals and my optimal was up to 19km without much of a damage loss. It pwned.
The nerf needs to be aimed at the armageddon and not pulse lasers.
As it stands now it's just another messy fix that doesn't really fix what it's suppose to and ends up nerfing a lot of other ships that are already balanced.
________________________________________________________
|
Gabriel Karade
|
Posted - 2005.03.06 10:25:00 -
[155]
Originally by: StinkFinger
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: StinkFinger
Wrong, pulse lasers now suck. 12km opt with multis? Can't hit crap at that range....and don't freaking say equip a webber.....amarr ships have limited midslots, they're not meant for EW.
Jeez, the problem with this game is basically summed up in this thread. We have a bunch of ignorant know-it-alls whining their heads off. Half of you don't fly amarr ships, yet you think you know what they need cuz your gimp mega/tempest setups got owned.
The only change needed for amarr is a nerf to the armageddons.
THAT'S IT.
Perhaps you missed the real tracking numbers, so i'll post them again:
Quote: Base Tracking:
0.027 rads/sec
no skills: 324m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl4 Motion prediction: 389 m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl4 motion prediction + 1 TechI tracking computer: 467 m/sec, 50% hit chance lvl5 motion prediction +1 Tech II tracking computer: 526.5m/sec, 50 % hit chance
In short, megapulses will hit a BS at 12km even if the oppposing ship is using an Afterburner you will still hit more than 50% with 1 tracking computer fitted.
"Cant hit crap" *cough* *cough*...
Test it. Numbers mean jack squat until they're backed up in-game. As it stands now, at 12km megas don't have the tracking to consistently hit battleships that aren't webbed.
Wrong. Your claim means nothing until you back it up with evidence. And quite frankly you are talking a load of nonsense.
What I posted is exactly how tracking has worked since the changes last year, everyone should know this. Ever tried a Dual 250mm railgun? it has ~65% of the tracking of a megapulse at very similar range, does that have a problem hitting Battleships below 12km? no (speaking from experiance using a dominix).
Please provide an example with Evidence, of where you can't reliably hit a moving Battleship at 12km. By evidence I mean a controlled test with screenshots of Target velocity, transverse velocity in overview and hit's/misses from the log.
Basically you won't, unlesss you use a skewed example such as a maximum-skilled tempest filled with Nanofibre and a 100MN II Afterburner (and even then, If you fitted 3 Tracking Computer II's you will still probably hit ~50% of the time at 12km as your megapulse would have a tracking of 0.0589 rads/sec) (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
Baun
|
Posted - 2005.03.06 12:43:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Kaylana Syi The armageddon and typphoon are timeless ships. No matter how the game changes they will always own. Its just the armageddon has seen the greenest side of the pasture for FAR TOO LONG. Kill its RoF bonus, give it an armor or falloff bonus, and leave lasers alone. Classic CCP overkilling when they should be looking for minor tweakage.
Agreed.
Nerf the geddon. That 40page nerf megapulse thread was made to nerf bs sized pulses, anyone stating otherwise is 100% wrong.
After looking at hammerheads graphs you should understand that the medium and small pulses match the medium and small other weapons in the EXACT same way as the mega pulses do. If the mega pulses are overpowered then so are the other sized pulses.
Granted, this is only true if one looks at the guns in a vacuum. It might be argued that when applied to the actual ships that it is not true.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
|
archangel sean
|
Posted - 2005.03.07 02:27:00 -
[157]
Apoc(does around 350 damage 110 armor per sec), Raven (does around 300 damage 150 shield per sec), Megathron (does around 450 damage, 70 armor per sec), Tempest (does around 360 damage 100 shield per sec)...and so on...including skills and standard equipment.
The ships were pretty much balanced imo. The megapulse had a clear advantage of tracking and range, and just needed a range nerf.
Crystals were bugged due to the range being wrong of some mid-long range crystals. ONLY the bugged ones needed a bit of tweaking. Not the entire set.
But then again, maybe we'll be seeing more megathrons and tempests soon. Next...missile/raven nerf?
It's good to be able to fly many ships...but then again, I'm going to have to pick one after seeing the trend in the heavy assualt ships. Too hard to train many races in the future.
I hope CCP knows what they're doing.
|
Luc Boye
|
Posted - 2005.03.07 02:48:00 -
[158]
\o/
--
2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Cracken
|
Posted - 2005.03.07 05:18:00 -
[159]
wha wha want a soother stop whinging you knew it was gonna happen some time.
|
Isonkon Serikain
|
Posted - 2005.03.07 08:01:00 -
[160]
I aggree with Lal...I think we are headed for an overnerf...
Me stops training lasers and moves to projectiles...
|
|
Gabriel Karade
|
Posted - 2005.03.07 09:18:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 07/03/2005 09:29:29 As far as Battleship weapons are concered an Apocalypse with 7x Tachyon Beam Laser II's will out damage any 6x 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Tempest with parity in skills and number of free low slots, see this thread for further information (note there are additions for capacitor usage too)
(\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
Shadowsword
|
Posted - 2005.03.07 09:24:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Stinkfinger
Originally by: Shadowsword
What the hell are you talking about? close range tracking has absolutely nothing to do with optimal, and as such post nerf tracking is the same that pre-nerf tracking. As for your statement that Amarr isn't supposed to need a web because they're not a EW heavy race, that's just ludicrous...
The further you are from your target, the higher chance you have to hit it, as long as it falls within the opt for your gun.
Follow me so far?
Now get closer to your target. Let's say 15km from a cruiser while using mega pulses. Can't hit as well as, say from 60km. Closer you get, the touhger it is to hit. Got that?
So as you can see, you're statement is completely ludicrous.
And why, pray tell, is it tougher to hit at close range? It's because the relative RADIAL VELOCITY increase, assuming constant speed. The ONLY elements that affect tracking are Radial velocity, turret tracking, and sig radius of both the turret and the target.
The Optimal/falloff/range calculations are something completely different.
Originally by: Stinkfinger
Now as for the ew comment...well an apoc with 4 mid slots and an arma with 3 have a tough time fitting a webber along with their tank and cap mods needed to keep it all running. I didn't say it wasn't possible, or that because they're not an ew race, they dont need them. Requiring one for using a mega with mutlis is simply weakening the class of ships even more..
Woo, amarr now is teh sux0r.
Good job.
I remember a time where the standard armor tank was just one large armor repairer, and the Apoc was the only one able to use 2 of them, AT THE PRICE OF FLEXIBILITY. Yes, if you put a web and a warp disruptor, you won't run 2 large repairers and weapons, but YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ALBE TO.
|
Fortior
|
Posted - 2005.03.07 11:33:00 -
[163]
I just wonder why I just read 9 pages of replies in a thread discussing something that is readily available for testing? The few people here that have done so don't seem to be crying their eyes out. If this topic is so incredibly important to you that you can type long and seemingly though-out WHINES, is the effort to see for yourself too much?
Aaahh, wtf, I use missiles anyway
|
fras
|
Posted - 2005.03.07 11:36:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Altai Saker This change really FUBARS small and medium guns...
Large need to be changed badly yes, but the smalls and mediums are fine... by reducing the range on the small guns you need to get in web range, and under web range blasters reign supreme... pulse lasers cant and should not compare... they should be 12-15km weapons...
Beams are 100% impossible to fit on amarr frigs because they eat too much grid and cpu.
Whats great is that this nerf affects megapulse the least. All i had to do was fit gamma crystals and my optimal was up to 19km without much of a damage loss. It pwned.
The nerf needs to be aimed at the armageddon and not pulse lasers.
As it stands now it's just another messy fix that doesn't really fix what it's suppose to and ends up nerfing a lot of other ships that are already balanced.
I found exactly the same to be true, this change nerfs everything except what it's actually aimed at.
Leave everything as it is and switch the armageddon ROF bonus for something else. Problem solved.
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page] |