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Face Lifter
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Posted - 2005.03.22 18:36:00 -
[31]
Devs have a thing for underestimating problems. You think cruisers are underpowered? check out the logistic cruiser, took devs forever to even grasp why it's so bad.
Devs probably look at statistics and see that a large portion of the player base uses cruisers. The thing is, most of those cruiser users are new characters that either don't have enough money or skill points for better ship. This does not make it okay. All ships should be designed with old/skilled players in mind.
And Battleship shouldn't be the standard PvP ship, cruisers should be. Battleship should be a heavy support vessel.
Battleships are like artillery
Cruisers are like tanks
Frigates are like infantry
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Ranger 1
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Posted - 2005.03.22 18:47:00 -
[32]
Agreed. Signed.
Kill the enemy, and break their toys. |
Sorja
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Posted - 2005.03.22 18:54:00 -
[33]
Since many players have given up on cruisers, interest in cruisers is lost and what we see now is frigs/BSs for PvP. It has become the norm 
I still use a Moa for PvP (when I'm allowed too since everybody laughs at me when I do), and had some success at sniping frigates and jamming BSs.
Nothing better that what other ship classes could do, but at least they are rather expandable. If the Raven was good in range fights, I wouldn't fly one though.
Another point is that some players still think cruisers are fine.
Either because they fight in regions where PvP is easier, or because they run missions with them.
This weakens the arguments of those who would like cruisers to have a role in combat.
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xJillianx
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Posted - 2005.03.22 19:03:00 -
[34]
I strongly agree with this argument. It makes complete sense why cruisers are almost never invloved in PVP. Balance the mass and the Agility amongst the other ships and it will have a fighting chance.
*Signed*
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Synthemesc
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Posted - 2005.03.22 19:39:00 -
[35]
Signed.
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GrendelPrime
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Posted - 2005.03.22 20:48:00 -
[36]
As someone who has 3 out of the 4 races cruiser skills at lvl5 and HAC skill at lvl5... SIGNED!
(yes, I really do have 3 out of the 4 cruiser skills at lvl5  ... still waiting for them to be worth something more then torp bait.)
"Though you may die, do not give up your honor"
-- Miyamoto Musashi
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.03.22 20:53:00 -
[37]
I agree, and I care.
People who have no cash and noobs use them. They get pwned a LOT because cruisers are so damn unagile. Even if the stats say that people are flying em, they need to be tweeked just to be put in line between frigs and BS's. People would use cruisers for Lightning Strikes if they were just a bit faster. As it is now cruisers are just too damn slow.
Nyxus
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Darkwolf
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Posted - 2005.03.22 20:56:00 -
[38]
 Originally by: Face Lifter
Devs probably look at statistics and see that a large portion of the player base uses cruisers.
In that case, noob ships must be teh ubah!
Ahem.
Anyway, signed.
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2005.03.22 20:58:00 -
[39]
cruisers certainly need the help
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Xavier Zyrae
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Posted - 2005.03.22 21:00:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Xavier Zyrae on 22/03/2005 21:00:20
Some real good suggestions here. Signed!
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Arimas Talasko
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Posted - 2005.03.22 21:03:00 -
[41]
Signed. I like to fly cruisers in pvp, but to be honest I score far more kills (and not just on frigates) when I'm in a frigate. And I tend not to lose my frigates as quickly as cruisers, either. It's kind of strange.
Supremacy Keepin it Real |
Meridius
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Posted - 2005.03.22 21:37:00 -
[42]
Updated the post with some new facts.
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.03.22 21:47:00 -
[43]
Signed!!
There was a reason ppl had to come up with the dual AB/MWD ships. It was the only work around to this problem. Since that nerf there has been a severe drop in cruiser pilots in the fleets. I still fly some because they are disposable. Now I look around and you only see the love directed at frigates and battleships anymore.
By CCP's own comments to the pulse laser nerf they had to nerf all pulse lasers from small to large because they were proportial to each other. They couldnt just nerf the mega pulse because if it was unbalanced all pulses were unbalanced. This is clearly not the case with cruisers. Some how it was off kilter from way back and never fixed. Come on CCP this needs to be addressed and from the looks of it would not be to difficult to do.
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Luther Devos
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Posted - 2005.03.23 00:49:00 -
[44]
Signed
-_- |
Cetshwayo
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Posted - 2005.03.23 02:22:00 -
[45]
Signed!!
It takes forever and a day for my beloved blasterrax to get up to speed with an MWD. Up the agility and fix the mass to the suggested amounts in this thread. I hate seeing fleets just consisting of BSs and frigs and MAYBE the odd BB here and there. That shows that there is something wrong.
I will keep this thread on the first page by bumping if I have to!! 
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.03.23 02:50:00 -
[46]
Aye.
Make shield tanking worth it on cruisers too.
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Sadist
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Posted - 2005.03.23 03:16:00 -
[47]
Quote:
Battleships are like artillery
Cruisers are like tanks
Frigates are like infantry
And dreadnaughts are like carpet bombing, or real-life tactical nukes?
Overall agreed and signed, cruiser do really need a little loving, besides the Heavy assaults which arent really an option for a noob...
Imagine a typical 2-week old player ready to jump in his first cruiser and dare to go below 0.5 ...
And then he finds out that he can be owned by pretty much EVERY ship in the game except the ones not designed for combat, and maybe some tech 1 frigates. Seriously this aint right...
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Calyn
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Posted - 2005.03.23 03:24:00 -
[48]
I agree that cruisers could use a boost in both the speed and agility department. It's funny, but my Sigil (a friggin' hauler) handles better than a cruiser, so something must be wrong.
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War transcends all barriers of species, race, religion, and civilization. |
DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2005.03.23 04:38:00 -
[49]
Originally by: akim
Agility would just make them better frig hunters. Wich is good. But it would not make them anymore viable in a fleet. As they're still missile fodder. That's the main problem IMO. Cruisers are not only suckers for cruise-missiles like frigs. But allso torps and heavies, even lights. Every missile hits... That's the main reason they're not realy used. The BB ofcourse being the exception, as it's the only cruiser still being somewhat able forfill a fleet role.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with this guy.
You will never, ever get balanced combat between all the classes, or anything remotely resembling mixed fleet battles. It basically boils down to two things for pvp:
1. You're slow.
2. You're fast.
Battleships can tank missiles, frigates can outrun them. Cruisers? Too slow to outrun, too weak to tank. Their guns? Don't track well enough to hit frigates, don't hit hard enough to break a good tank. In my honest opinion, EVE pvp will never change from this until missiles are given agility or a turning radius speed.
It angers me like no other thing in eve that a battleship classed weapon like a cruise missile is far better at both catching and killing the fastest ships in the game, while frigate classed light missiles designed to do the same thing are completely inept.
With that said, cruisers will never become useful until torps and cruise become incapable of hitting them as much as large guns. I am however in complete and utter agreement on their agility and mass. Cruisers are the middle ground, or are supposed to be, yet they handle like garbage.
This is what I think is the proper order for agility, with frigs being 3 times as agile as cruisers and cruisers being 3 times as agile as bships
Interceptor
Frigate
Destroyer
Covert Ops
Assault Frigate
Bombers
Logistics Cruisers
Cruiser
Tier 2 HAC
Battlecruisers
Tier 3 HAC
Battleships
Tech 2 Battleships
Carriers
Dreadnaughts
Titans
Industrials and barges excluded, probably somewhere just short of battleship agility.
_____________________________________
Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
"Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf |
Letifer Deus
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Posted - 2005.03.23 06:01:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sadist
Quote:
Battleships are like artillery
Cruisers are like tanks
Frigates are like infantry
Er, it is more:
Battleships are tanks
cruisers are humvees
frigates are infantry.
I am the OG PIIIIIMP |
Kyle Caldrel
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Posted - 2005.03.23 06:28:00 -
[51]
I also feel that cruisers really dont have any spot in pvp at the moment, so i also agree. They need to have more agility imo, and maby a bit less mass. Getting to warp fast is my main concern.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.03.23 07:22:00 -
[52]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Logistics Cruisers
Cruiser
Tier 2 HAC
Battlecruisers
Tier 3 HAC
Battleships
Tech 2 Battleships
Err, you think HACs should be less agile then cruisers/battlecruisers?
wtf?
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2005.03.23 07:46:00 -
[53]
Not with current agility values. If cruisers were actually half-way between frigs and bships and battlecruisers half way between cruisers and bships then yeah
You're thinking of how slow and agile BC are today, forget that
its just the order, not the magnitude i'm talking about
_____________________________________
Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
"Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf |
Uuve Savisaalo
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Posted - 2005.03.23 08:09:00 -
[54]
With all of the data provided by Meridius and Digitalcommunist, there really isn't much left to add.
Petition signed. Speech Speech.
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Christopher Multsanti
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Posted - 2005.03.23 08:10:00 -
[55]
Signed!
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Shreven Bulks
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Posted - 2005.03.23 08:19:00 -
[56]
An exceptionally well thought out post, Meridius.  I continue to find CCPs slowness in acting on what appear to be exceedingly simple, entirely posotive changes extreamly puzzling. Cruisers have been of marginal utility since can mining made everyon having a private fleet of BS practical; any buffs to make them more survivable in pvp would be welcome.
Presumed battleship rarity was the original premise upon which the continued use of cruisers was based: it has been clear for a LONG time that they need modifications that give them a clear niche in fleets aside from their absurd expendability: mass and agility fixes would go a long way. It would be nice to THEN add skills for peeps wanting to specialize in the class to make them even more agile, reduce their sig radius, or what have you.
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Agenor Deteis
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Posted - 2005.03.23 10:20:00 -
[57]
very good post Meridics, i have just one question
Quote:
Yet another problem with cruisers is the fact that frigate weapons track 3x as fast as cruiser guns while cruiser guns only track 2.4x as fast as battleship guns.
if cruiser guns would be upped, wound it just erase the need of destroyers and AF?
I don't use guns, call me a n0ob here, but would be neat if you could show me some numbers ;)
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Raaki
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:39:00 -
[58]
Signed
Fix the cruisers
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Amthrianius
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Posted - 2005.03.23 11:52:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Manyara
Megathron + MWD = 600ms (ish)
Rax + MWD = 1000ms (ish)
Incursurus + MWD = 1900ms (ish)
Megathron with mwd is more like 1km/s and thorax is 1.25km/s and incursus about 2.4km/s
So an even bigger difference
Un-nerf cruisers!
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meowcat
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Posted - 2005.03.23 12:01:00 -
[60]
can you put destroyers into your comparison, as they fit between cruisers and frigs
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yeah but no but yeah but no but |
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