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Cruiser Agility Fix

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Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.03.25 19:39:00 - [91] Originally by: Nafri well in my eyes the only way to make cruiser usable in combat is making large guns unable to hit them under their optimal range You are on the right track, this is very important. Understandably, cruisers shouldn't be as hard to hit as frigates, but it should still be hard once they utilize same tactics as frigate pilots. Cruisers badly need speed and agility boost to make them more survivable against battleships. Even with such a boost, they would still be vulnerable while trying to approach and start orbiting the bs, but that's the risk people should be willing to deal with. In relation to that, long range cruiser setups are naturally disadvantaged. Long range cruiser gives up it's in-built speed and sig radius advantage. That's why something like Eagle, which takes long range to extreme, is considered to be quite bad. And that's why ships like Deimos and even Thorax are considered the best cruisers, cause they fully utilize cruiser advantages, however little they are right now.
Cinnander	Posted - 2005.03.25 20:43:00 - [92] Signed, as a cruiser pilot and budding HACk pilot I demand equality rights!
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2005.03.25 21:02:00 - [93] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 25/03/2005 21:02:38 Bad short term memory, I dont remember ever actually signing this, so, uh... As a HAC and cruiser lover, I dub this thread signed I am the OG PIIIIIMP
Zeed Deex	Posted - 2005.03.25 21:26:00 - [94] Signed'd
Lazarus Bartok	Posted - 2005.03.25 22:39:00 - [95] Signed.
Nekhad Jormuzzar	Posted - 2005.03.25 23:21:00 - [96] Originally by: Brooke Esto Signed. Im guessing im in the minority here as i always fly a cruiser for pvp and pve, i love em :) I have avoided cruisers for this very same reason. Only used them while I was training for assault frigates and inties. Almost done with cruiser V now, though, so I'm gonna be hoplessly slow again, even if my Ishtar is a sexy *****.
Thagirion	Posted - 2005.03.26 02:21:00 - [97] Signed
Sun Sliver	Posted - 2005.03.26 04:16:00 - [98] wth, signed. me and my vagabond would love to be even faster, just maybe we live up to minnie ship idea
anBurka	Posted - 2005.03.26 15:07:00 - [99] I would love to see cruisers being used more on player vs player. This would be a good step.
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.03.26 16:50:00 - [100] signed again
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.26 17:53:00 - [101] Edited by: Selim on 26/03/2005 17:54:10 I don't think fixing the agility would make cruisers useful again, there's just too many problems and none of them seem to be fixable. A. Too big/slow to evade fire B. Too weak to repel fire C. Not enough damage None of these things can be fixed, in my opinion. Otherwise we'd make them just big frigates, or small battleships. However, I think cruisers need a general increase in hitpoints. 25% more across the board, I'd say. Then I'd say give cruisers more slots. Caracal: 1 lowslot, 1 hislot Moa: 1 midslot, 1 lowslot Stabber: 1 hislot, 1 turret point, 1 missile point, 1 lowslot Rupture: 2 lowslot Omen: 2 lowslot Maller: 2 lowslot Vexor: 1 lowslot, 1 turret point Thorax: Ehhrr... can't think of anything that wouldn't make it super overpowered. 1 midslot I'd say.
Kinmaul IV	Posted - 2005.03.26 19:19:00 - [102] Originally by: Selim Edited by: Selim on 26/03/2005 17:54:10 I don't think fixing the agility would make cruisers useful again, there's just too many problems and none of them seem to be fixable. A. Too big/slow to evade fire B. Too weak to repel fire C. Not enough damage None of these things can be fixed, in my opinion. Otherwise we'd make them just big frigates, or small battleships. However, I think cruisers need a general increase in hitpoints. 25% more across the board, I'd say. Then I'd say give cruisers more slots. Caracal: 1 lowslot, 1 hislot Moa: 1 midslot, 1 lowslot Stabber: 1 hislot, 1 turret point, 1 missile point, 1 lowslot Rupture: 2 lowslot Omen: 2 lowslot Maller: 2 lowslot Vexor: 1 lowslot, 1 turret point Thorax: Ehhrr... can't think of anything that wouldn't make it super overpowered. 1 midslot I'd say. Well I'm new to the game so I'm obviously not qualified to make any balance calls. However if Cruiser class ships have all of the problems you say they do then the best route to balance (in any game) is one step at a time. Making too many changes at once can introduce a host of problems as people always figure out how to manipulate game mechanics in ways that developers never intended. I don't think anyone believes that a mass reduction/agility boost will magically fix all the problems stated here, but it is a step in the right direction. Make small changes, let them ride for a bit, and if everything is working properly move onto the next issue.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.03.26 19:22:00 - [103] Well, we could always reintroduce dual MWDs. It's not like they were hard to counter, and it was fun to fly them. Add to that that is made them actually usefull... Ofcourse, it would have to be combined with the agility/mass change proposed by Meridius. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
hellwarrior	Posted - 2005.03.26 19:51:00 - [104] Originally by: Dlixx Originally by: Manyara And if you really feel generous, un-nerf propulsion altogether. I used to have so much fun in my MWD + 100AB frig killer... 3.2K/s anyone? only 3.2km/sec? my Rupture did 7.5km/sec indef, close to 8k with gang bonus :P (dual 100mn AB II) ONLY 7.5km!??!! dont' diss others skills it isn't cool he didn't state which ship and 7.5km isnt' special maybe 10km -.-; mkay
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.26 20:24:00 - [105] Originally by: Selim Edited by: Selim on 26/03/2005 17:54:10 I don't think fixing the agility would make cruisers useful again, there's just too many problems and none of them seem to be fixable. A. Too big/slow to evade fire B. Too weak to repel fire C. Not enough damage None of these things can be fixed, in my opinion. Otherwise we'd make them just big frigates, or small battleships. However, I think cruisers need a general increase in hitpoints. 25% more across the board, I'd say. Then I'd say give cruisers more slots. Caracal: 1 lowslot, 1 hislot Moa: 1 midslot, 1 lowslot Stabber: 1 hislot, 1 turret point, 1 missile point, 1 lowslot Rupture: 2 lowslot Omen: 2 lowslot Maller: 2 lowslot Vexor: 1 lowslot, 1 turret point Thorax: Ehhrr... can't think of anything that wouldn't make it super overpowered. 1 midslot I'd say. I think you're taking it too far. Lets start with fixing this broken agility and getting mass in line with bs-frig over base mass numbers. Cruiser sized guns also need there tracking improved to put them in the middle of frig/bs tracking. I want to see how it will work with fixed numbers as the way it is right now, the numbers are broken. ________________________________________________________
Sorja	Posted - 2005.03.27 01:30:00 - [106] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Selim Edited by: Selim on 26/03/2005 17:54:10 I don't think fixing the agility would make cruisers useful again, there's just too many problems and none of them seem to be fixable. A. Too big/slow to evade fire B. Too weak to repel fire C. Not enough damage None of these things can be fixed, in my opinion. Otherwise we'd make them just big frigates, or small battleships. However, I think cruisers need a general increase in hitpoints. 25% more across the board, I'd say. Then I'd say give cruisers more slots. Caracal: 1 lowslot, 1 hislot Moa: 1 midslot, 1 lowslot Stabber: 1 hislot, 1 turret point, 1 missile point, 1 lowslot Rupture: 2 lowslot Omen: 2 lowslot Maller: 2 lowslot Vexor: 1 lowslot, 1 turret point Thorax: Ehhrr... can't think of anything that wouldn't make it super overpowered. 1 midslot I'd say. I think you're taking it too far. Lets start with fixing this broken agility and getting mass in line with bs-frig over base mass numbers. Cruiser sized guns also need there tracking improved to put them in the middle of frig/bs tracking. I want to see how it will work with fixed numbers as the way it is right now, the numbers are broken. Yes, fix the mass/agility problem, but if at the same time they don't fix the cruiser class speed boosts, I'm not sure it will help. Cruiser speed boosts take too long to reach max speed and use too much cap (the MWD at least). If, like mentioned elsewhere, but I don't know if it's vaporware or not, ABs are to be increased to 200% instead of 100%, then maybe the cap need could remain as it stands.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.27 01:46:00 - [107] Originally by: Sorja Cruiser speed boosts take too long to reach max speed and use too much cap (the MWD at least). Changing the agility + decreasing the mass will increase acceleration by quite a bit ________________________________________________________
Sorja	Posted - 2005.03.27 01:58:00 - [108] /me smacks head True enough.
Selthae	Posted - 2005.03.27 02:05:00 - [109] Cruiser class used to be my favourite shiptype. Signed.
Anjerrai Meloanis	Posted - 2005.03.27 11:24:00 - [110] Edited by: Anjerrai Meloanis on 27/03/2005 11:24:53 when i was flying in a cruiser with a buddy in a bs i noticed how we pretty much went into warp and out of warp at the same time, maybe quarter of a second apart... how about nerfing battleship agility instead :p im sure that would sway ppl from using them over a cruiser, as if bs arent slow enough already.. having the big guns take time to warp in after the catchers and light hitters sounds more realistic.. meh.. uh.
Dr Derek	Posted - 2005.03.27 15:17:00 - [111] I agree with Meridius. "if you can't beat em, join em"
akim	Posted - 2005.03.27 16:53:00 - [112] Edited by: akim on 27/03/2005 16:53:48 Originally by: Kinmaul IV ... Make small changes, let them ride for a bit, and if everything is working properly move onto the next issue. You didn't need to tell us you're new. You obviously havn't experienced the CCP way yet ;) Just hang on for the _complete_ remake of EW in next patch. And you'll see how things are done in EVE... But I do agree, start with these fixes, and take it from there. But cruisers will still only be viable for small scale frigate hunting when not much else is around to blast it to pieces...
Wild Rho	Posted - 2005.03.27 17:27:00 - [113] Anyone think reducing the sig radius of the cruisers thereby making them much harder to hit with bs guns may help? I have to admit I'm not really familiar with the numbers involved but it's just somthing that occured to me. If cruiers are harder to hit with bs guns then there maybe more roles for cruisers in a fleet as anti cruiser/anti frig platforms that can actually surivie in a battle. Just an idea. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.27 17:32:00 - [114] Quote: I think you're taking it too far. Lets start with fixing this broken agility and getting mass in line with bs-frig over base mass numbers. Cruiser sized guns also need there tracking improved to put them in the middle of frig/bs tracking. Well, I don't think the tracking is an issue personally. They have a much lower scan res (120 compared to 400 for battleship guns), so despite having not much better radians per second tracking, they track ALOT better due to the resolution. Consider how its almost 1/4th of the battleship guns, while frigate guns are 1/3 of cruiser guns. As far as just doing the mass changes - I just don't think making their agility better is going to fix the inherent disadvantages of the cruiser class.
akim	Posted - 2005.03.27 17:42:00 - [115] Actualy. I don't think the sig radius is a major issue. Cruisers are allready pretty hard to hit below 10-15km with most large guns. As pointed out on many occations. It's torps and cruises that are the main problem. 100% chance of a hit, and full dammage each time. You can't outrun them, you can't dodge them, you can't tank them. If a scorp launches a volley at you, all you can do, post the dual mwd/AB nerf, is warp or die. And the majority of times, you'll die while alligning for warp. The cruiser "issue" can never realy be resolved before missiles are fixed.
Pitt	Posted - 2005.03.27 21:12:00 - [116] Mer, I agree 100% with the changes that need to be made. The adjustments that are being recomended in this tread are right on spot. It's nothing over the top that will make cruisers "uber", just a slight nudge to get them in line. Cruisers are my favorite class of ship to fly, but atm you couldn't pay me enough to use one in pvp. GJ on the post Mer, glad to see I'm not the only one who misses flying cruisers *Lack of preparation on your part does not constitute greifing on mine*
Qayos	Posted - 2005.03.27 22:43:00 - [117] Very good point akim.
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.03.28 01:38:00 - [118] Increase cruiser agility - increase cruiser hp's. Cruisers 4tw! Nyxus
Calyn	Posted - 2005.03.28 07:38:00 - [119] Can I sign again? Was just thinking how nice it would be to sit in a cruiser and actually move and turn faster than a hauler... One can dream, can't one? Truly, cruisers really do feel like a forgotten ship class, used as a transition point and not an actual ship meant to use. Agility and mass fixes would go a long way. Sure, cruisers are ok to npc in albeit boring, but a 'ceptor is a lot more fun and a BS has more cargo with very little difference in movement behaviour _________________________________________________ War transcends all barriers of species, race, religion, and civilization.
Forever Alone	Posted - 2005.03.28 09:10:00 - [120] wouldn't it be cool to see a fleet of cruisers? if cruisers rocked and people chose them to PvP with, then more people would join in, cause it'd be much cheaper than battleships, so more people would want to join the fun

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