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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
92
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 18:56:00 -
[31] - Quote
Opertone wrote:Most stupid stuff in EVE.
Low sec, 1000% risk missions. PVE fits are weak, PVP fits suck at PVE, you make so little money that it is not worthwhile to bring PvP guard. There is not enough reward to compensate BODYGUARDs, lost PVE ship. But risk is 100 higher than current reward.
Only way to make low MISSIONS viable - collapsible warp gate, a certain key that takes you to the mission deadspace, so that noone except your team can interfere in your mission. At least it is fair for the PVE pilot, he can still be ganked on gate or station. But not while he is busy.
no
your asking for 100% safe pve this is against everything Eve is built around.
please don't make a similar request to this in the future again. It has been bad enough reading it this time. |

Sheynan
Lighting the blight
76
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
I would actually like to see LP rewards given out in Nullsec.
(To outline this quickly: When you get ISK bounties in 0.0, you'd also get some "DED LP". You could then trade those for standard LP, similar to the normal CONCORD LP. Additionally you could install a specific npc corp into your Ihub and trade LPs for stuff there. )
This would actually a) buff nullsec income b) scew up the high-value highsec mission-running and thus stealth nerf the top crowd that is earning too much in highsec by blitzing lvl 4s.
Just wanted to spew this out. |

No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1459
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
Athena Themis wrote:I've always heard how amazing null sec anoms were when I was a highsec bear. After dual boxing them in tengus myself, it turns out they aren't that amazing and I make much more doing lvl 4s with 1 character.
Granted, anom payout is very direct and simple, and what makes doing lvl 4s profitable (200m+/hr) involves more work, such as playing the market, trading, doing conversions etc and a pimped ship and faction standings to blitz (basically things other than actually doing the missions). However, the risk involved in HS is downright laughable compared to 0.0.
I think the risk vs reward is what this is about, null anoms just are not worth the risk compared to other income sources.
This is pretty much it. It's a common misconception that isk is just oozing out of null sec when in reality- sanctums, havens, anomalies are pretty much on par with L4's or Incursions.
Except the L4 and Incursion can be farmed repeatedly for hours on end without highly skilled roving gangs trying to kill you several times an hour, or downright camping systems with afk cloaky dudes.
For anyone who has tasted the ease and luxury of high sec income why would they ever want to exchange that for mediocre income with a drastic rise in risk? primary target is broadcasted, put all drones on the warp disruption battery. If you are in a frigate you should be at the gate, who blew up? |

Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE Initiative Mercenaries
154
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Why won't they go to low-sec again? What makes you think they don't? I can't say for sure, but I expect most new players would probably be a bit curious about exploring low-sec. For most new players, there's nothing there for them though. |

Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
50
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:02:00 -
[35] - Quote
I don't get why someone always has to chime in with the "You can't *FORCE* me into null! Therefore don't fix the game, tia." argument in these types of threads.
:cripes: No one can force you to move into null, low, or anywhere else. Get over yourself, this is about the game as a whole and better risk/reward, not dictating your individual choices. |

Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1596
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Why won't they go to low-sec again? What makes you think they don't? I can't say for sure, but I expect most new players would probably be a bit curious about exploring low-sec. For most new players, there's nothing there for them though. My point was not that nobody goes to low-sec.
I was arguing that ships are literally free in Eve.
A 50M ship price tag is no excuse whatsoever to avoid risk.
Obviously, players (new and old alike) occasionally do go to low-sec. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |

Opertone
Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
132
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
You are like 6 month old into the game... Else you post with sh*** alt.
If people come into low sec for some reason - there is still people in low sec. No matter how safe they are when missioning. They have to dock and complete mission and change fittings at some point! This is where interaction is possible.
You can also make probing improbable but 0,0001 % likely.
Solstice Project - your argument lacks content. A wall of emotions.
People do lvl 5s not because they are brave, but because they effectively eliminated competition, and thus locked down mission hub for themselves. Population will not come!!!
|

Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1596
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
Opertone wrote:You are like 6 month old into the game... Else you post with sh*** alt.
If people come into low sec for some reason - there is still people in low sec. No matter how safe they are when missioning. They have to dock and complete mission and change fittings at some point! This is where interaction is possible.
You can also make probing improbable but 0,0001 % likely.
Solstice Project - your argument lacks content. A wall of emotions.
People do lvl 5s not because they are brave, but because they effectively eliminated competition, and thus locked down mission hub for themselves. Population will not come!!!
Go to battleclinic and look up my record before calling me a "shII alt."
I forgot more about Eve than you know. That's not an opinion, either.
They can make safe spots. Bounce around. Be adaptive. Also not an opinion.
Running level 5's may not require bravery, but it should require adaptability.
I'm sorry if you are lacking in that department.
Consider learning to play Eve as an alternative to removing risk in low-security space. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |

Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
93
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
for most new players
Losec and Nul are full of risk and offer zero reward. Hisec offers some risk and a decent reward.
where they chose to play is hardly rocket science. |

Opertone
Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
132
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:09:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote: no
your asking for 100% safe pve this is against everything Eve is built around.
please don't make a similar request to this in the future again. It has been bad enough reading it this time.
You've read it all through the prism of ignorance!
PVE safe in pocket, not 100% safe in low sec. Not safe at stations, not safe on gate, not safe if you run out of supplies in station.
Ok, secure lvl 1-4 missions, but leave lvl 5 open as they are! Low sec will repopulate. |

Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE Initiative Mercenaries
155
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:09:00 -
[41] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:A 50M ship price tag is no excuse whatsoever to avoid risk. That's true. I think a lot of new players aren't accustomed to losing ships. They have no real desire to go out and get themselves blown up. I think it's a pride thing because other games feed them the idea they are some great hero. They come to EvE with big ideas about taking over the universe and perhaps they don't want to tarnish their reputation by getting killed or something. I think new players might feel some embarrassment and humiliation in being blown up by another player. |

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1829
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:11:00 -
[42] - Quote
Opertone wrote:You are like 6 month old into the game... Else you post with sh*** alt.
If people come into low sec for some reason - there is still people in low sec. No matter how safe they are when missioning. They have to dock and complete mission and change fittings at some point! This is where interaction is possible.
You can also make probing improbable but 0,0001 % likely.
Solstice Project - your argument lacks content. A wall of emotions.
People do lvl 5s not because they are brave, but because they effectively eliminated competition, and thus locked down mission hub for themselves. Population will not come!!!
Bullshit. The system i lived in in lowsec was medium populated with actual resident pirates and STILL people came to run missions !
You must be one of exactly these above mentioned cowards, simply not realizing that you are indeed a coward ! Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |

Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1596
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:13:00 -
[43] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:A 50M ship price tag is no excuse whatsoever to avoid risk. That's true. I think a lot of new players aren't accustomed to losing ships. They have no real desire to go out and get themselves blown up. I think it's a pride thing because other games feed them the idea they are some great hero. They come to EvE with big ideas about taking over the universe and perhaps they don't want to tarnish their reputation by getting killed or something. I think new players might feel some embarrassment and humiliation in being blown up by another player. The tutorial missions should require players to lose a ship in every single profession's training program to help counter this.
Both combat tutorials handle this brilliantly.
Are you forced to die in the business, mining, or exploration tutorials?
If not, note to CCP^ He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |

Lipbite
Express Hauler
170
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:17:00 -
[44] - Quote
Meta-4 loot is so rare most mission runners won't notice its disappearance for weeks. |

Opertone
Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
132
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:19:00 -
[45] - Quote
As an ex pirate i must say!
No mission runner ever passes by... As we fight for king and queen of Mara, every pirate gang holds their space and noone is allowed to pass in PVE fits.
You low sec hub possibly was a null bear JumpFreighter haven. In fact all blue to each other, there are such systems, they border with null. |

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1829
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:34:00 -
[46] - Quote
Opertone wrote:As an ex pirate i must say!
No mission runner ever passes by... As we fight for king and queen of Mara, every pirate gang holds their space and noone is allowed to pass in PVE fits.
You low sec hub possibly was a null bear JumpFreighter haven. In fact all blue to each other, there are such systems, they border with null. Because you know all of lowsec.
*rollseyes*
I give up. Can't teach the stupid. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |

nat longshot
solo and loveing it
107
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:53:00 -
[47] - Quote
why is it A@@hats in 0.0 allways say remove this from high sec. STUF they have removed drone drops and 30% of loot drops from npcs.
we cant moon mine in high sec cant owe custom offices dont get officer mod drops or the rare min we need to build ships.
you dont get 1 bil iteam drops in high sec at all so STFU about more nerfs to high sec. |

Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
768
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:57:00 -
[48] - Quote
nat longshot wrote:we cant moon mine in high sec cant owe custom offices dont get officer mod drops or the rare min we need to build ships.
you dont get 1 bil iteam drops in high sec at all so STFU about more nerfs to high sec. NERRF HIH-SECD BECAUSE TOOEASY!!! Nothing Found |

Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
318
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 20:04:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lipbite wrote:Meta-4 loot is so rare most mission runners won't notice its disappearance for weeks.
Funny you say that as most Meta 4 sell at reproc and in many cases .33 of the price of T2 and they still sit in Jita for months. There is really no need to remove Meta 4 as loot. The player base has removed them as an income. |

FeralShadow
Black Storm Cartel
162
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 20:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
We can all agree that the risk:reward ratio is WAY off.
Solution:
INCREASE the rewards in low/nullsec to bring the ratio back into balance with high sec for EVERYONE not just FW.
Don't remove anything from high sec. Just boost low/null. Prices may skyrocket but everybody will have more money. It's the only way to get people out of highsec (Make low/null so profitable that highsec seems like they're farming beans next to it).
These isk/hr optimizing carebears only care about one thing: how much can they make? They're driven by greed.
Shift click to open new window. How the Eve Sandbox Works:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176 "I believe in karma. That's why whenever I do something sh**ty to others, they somehow deserved it." |

Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
174
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 20:09:00 -
[51] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Opertone wrote:As an ex pirate i must say!
No mission runner ever passes by... As we fight for king and queen of Mara, every pirate gang holds their space and noone is allowed to pass in PVE fits.
You low sec hub possibly was a null bear JumpFreighter haven. In fact all blue to each other, there are such systems, they border with null. Because you know all of lowsec. *rollseyes* I give up. Can't teach the stupid.
Someone here has a great signature: "CCP can't fix stupid."  |

nat longshot
solo and loveing it
107
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 20:13:00 -
[52] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:nat longshot wrote:we cant moon mine in high sec cant owe custom offices dont get officer mod drops or the rare min we need to build ships.
you dont get 1 bil iteam drops in high sec at all so STFU about more nerfs to high sec. NERRF HIH-SECD BECAUSE TOOEASY!!!
LOL is it can be easy or hard its all how you play. But its up to the players were they play and if ccp keep nerfing high sec the game will fail and all you low sec and 0.0 people will lose everthing you worked to build if the game closes.
high sec, low sec , and 0.0 are tied in one way the other. Were do most of the are min's go high sec why is that because people in high buy it along with your officer or deadspace mods without people in high sec with the wallets to buy the stuff out of low or 0.0 space they would be worthless and no point of playing in at all.
Have a clue were all the money "other then plex's" come from its people doing the missions and kill the rats or FW and other ways to get the bountys off the heads of npcs. Without the high sec trade huds "like Jita,Rens,Hek,Dodixe,Amarr" were it safer to sell your good and were its mostly safe to pick up said goods all trade would drop by more then 80% and more to the point there would be no Isk movement to fill the pilots of eve pockets. Have a clue what your talking about before make Silly ideas that would kill the game.
|

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1829
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 20:15:00 -
[53] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:These isk/hr optimizing carebears only care about one thing: how much can they make? They're driven by greed. Exactly.
And they won't move to lowsec just because there's more money to be made down there, because there's also a high chance of loosing ! They don't care about the money, they care about satisfaction ! Lowsec, for a carebear, does not relate to that !
CCP will simply continue nerfing highsec, while at the same time making it more secure ... ... and it will change exactly NOTHING, except pissing off even more people than before !
Hey, in regards to that, how about this:
To bring more people to lowsec, encourage all the pirates to instead move to highsec. %)
It's at least as "smart" as any of these "throw more money at it" ideas, but this at least hasn't been proven wrong time and time again .................. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |

Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
365
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 20:16:00 -
[54] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:Most null sec dwellers resort to lesser expensive ships who don't have the high value fits for optimal isk/hr generation. So, while theoretically you could generate tons of isk /hr in null, it's not feasable for a lot of the high risk areas to do this as you are at more risk and it's not worth it to field a ship who will potentially get lost.
So what changed?
When I flew with FA and Test, every second ship was a pimped Tengu. In semi-lazy mode could pull 40-50m an hour just on anoms. A lot of guys even used carriers, including me, set up small ratting fleets and offered fighters to the Tengus for even quicker cash.
I do know that a lot of guys wouldnt rat because of the alliance demand to be in a defense fleet and cloakies used to sit on the anoms collecting bounties. I think this got fixed?
And for me it was never about how much I made but because there was never any leadership at alliance level to setup and maintain a proper defense fleet to allow the guys to mine/rat etc. Smaller corps just could not do it alone.
In many cases, if guys bubbled inbound gates to buy some run time, everybody bitched and whined or shot them out.
When alliances or the largest of corps make a concerted effort to field a defense fleet - with a proper defense strategy - more guys just might find 0.0 profitable again instead of being locked up half the day on a safe or station. I lost countless ships and millions of isk on gank attempts. I did not blame CCP, Concord or the miner. I blamed me for bothering. I made more money.......... mining.
|

Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
93
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 20:29:00 -
[55] - Quote
Opertone wrote:Kitty Bear wrote: no
your asking for 100% safe pve this is against everything Eve is built around.
please don't make a similar request to this in the future again. It has been bad enough reading it this time.
You've read it all through the prism of ignorance! PVE safe in pocket, not 100% safe in low sec. Not safe at stations, not safe on gate, not safe if you run out of supplies in station. Ok, secure lvl 1-4 missions, but leave lvl 5 open as they are! Low sec will repopulate.
No, I understood your post quite clearly. You are stating your desire to have a mission area that is inviolable. If as your statement says, your mission gate can be collasped behind you, then you are 100% safe. This is totally and completely against the gaming ethos that Eve is built upon.
Ganking may not have been in the original development notes, but its a metagaming playstyle that exists with the allowed gaming structures put in place by CCP. There are no exploits used to find you in your mission.
You are only safe whilst your docked. Undock and you are a target. |

Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
375
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 20:31:00 -
[56] - Quote
i actually think that nullsec is pretty good income wise for the average player
highsec is way to good |

Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1062
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 20:35:00 -
[57] - Quote
All of this assumes people enjoy risk because of ISK. Most everyone Ive talked to does not seem to see it that way. They enjoy risk because after an encounter involving risk they have a feeling of euphoria. People who do not enjoy risk feel nothing or even sick after a risky encounter.
Why would giving me more fake space money make me enjoy risk when the stress of a risky encounter makes me feel sick? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |

Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
367
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 20:40:00 -
[58] - Quote
No More Heroes wrote: This is pretty much it. It's a common misconception that isk is just oozing out of null sec when in reality- sanctums, havens, anomalies are pretty much on par with L4's or Incursions.
BS. Not gonna speak for Incursions, never done them but to compare L4's to 0.0 anoms would suggest you were trying to do them in a destroyer.
L4's used to net me roughly 20m/hr with LP's and salvage.
I easily did 40-50m on anoms without salvaging. If I got serious and multiboxed I easily doubled it.
Throw in Commander and 10/10 drops and it buffed the isk bigtime. (750m blueprint drops - find me an L4 mission drop that does that!)
Ratting in 0.0 is very rich, but there are problems:-
- lack of direction in forming proper defense fleets to give the guys some focused ratting time - fleet leeches - lack of etiquette/knowledge/direction for belt chaining etc. (try chaining for 2 hours and have some pratt come pop the lot - grrrrr) - without raising the ugly spectre, AFK cloakies (a perpetual argument) - had you tied up on safes or docked half the time.
And when we talk about risk aversion - who is at fault? When a guy loses a decent boat by taking "risks" he gets balled out or turfed out because it hurts the killboard.
- alliance rules about using caps for ratting because it hurts the alliance KILLBOARD. - "hey, so-and-so got balled out because he lost a pimped Tengu" << hurts the alliance KILLBOARD.
I could go on but it's NOT the value of the ratting in 0.0, it's about how it's able to be used. I lost countless ships and millions of isk on gank attempts. I did not blame CCP, Concord or the miner. I blamed me for bothering. I made more money.......... mining.
|

F'elch
Wall Street Trading
22
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 21:07:00 -
[59] - Quote
lol cry moar |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
1927
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 21:31:00 -
[60] - Quote
I was pulling about 60M/hr in a T1 fit drake, simply ratting in belts in nullsec. CCP doesn't want to introduce new ISK faucets without similar sinks.
Nullsec already has valuable resources such as Arkonor. You'll notice that the more you exploit resources, the less valuable they become. Due to exploitation of these resources, all ores are pretty much worth the same ISK/hr now (well, except Omber and Spodumain). So simply pumping more resources into nullsec will not increase nullbear incomes.
One option is to take industry out of NPC hands and put it in player hands. NPCs could charge taxes in NPC-controlled regions, for example increasing the cost of anchoring a POS in hisec, while corporations & alliances would be responsible for taxes in nullsec. The POS revamp would be an ideal opportunity for this kind of thing: reduce the number of research & manufacture lines available from NPCs, reduce the quality of NPC refineries, and boost the abilities of player-owned refineries (perhaps only allowing the more efficient refineries to be anchored in non-hisec).
Thus CCP could tip the balance of industry to ensure that, while safe ISK incomes from L4 missions and PLEX speculation are untouched, industrialists will be encouraged to move to low/null to make the greater profits. To be sure, CCP could allow player-operated star bases to have market facilities, then start ramping up the taxes on NPC market facilities so even perfect skilled and perfect standings traders will be paying taxes in NPC facilities. Imagine how much profit the corp/alliance would be pulling in if they got to charge 1% tax on every transaction in a market hub like Jita?
Which brings up the issue of nullbear attitudes towards industrialists. With a fields & farms approach to industry, nullbears are going to have to start protecting their industrialist cash cows rather than treating them with scorn and using industrialists as a source of cheap laughs (hey! we'll rent you this space in null sec, and we'll escort your fleet of freighters and jump freighters all the way there! just pay 10B up front for the first six month's rental and infrastructure setup)
Whining that ratting income is too low in null sec is not going to achieve anything. Ratting income has been nerfed because a great number of nullbears have been far too good at getting the highest possible ISK/hr out of nullsec ratting. CCP has to find other ways of helping you make ISK. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
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