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Piugattuk
CLOROFLORFILAPLANKTONPLATES
91
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 21:45:00 -
[31] - Quote
Sisohiv wrote:Piugattuk wrote:Ok, sure. Just get rid of the need to buy LP store items with isk and tags...whoops, that kills someone else's income, tags, farming tags would be pointless cause who will buy them if you don't need it for LP store, this takes content out of the game. Sure im for it if I won't need tags and isk to buy pimp items.  And keep LP prices for items as is. Nobody uses tags in the LP store. Most items you can just throw more LP and ISK at rather than build tag shopping lists. Items you can't do that with aren't in the markets. Oh contrar mi capiton, yes you do. |

Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 21:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:Sisohiv wrote:Piugattuk wrote:Ok, sure. Just get rid of the need to buy LP store items with isk and tags...whoops, that kills someone else's income, tags, farming tags would be pointless cause who will buy them if you don't need it for LP store, this takes content out of the game. Sure im for it if I won't need tags and isk to buy pimp items.  And keep LP prices for items as is. Nobody uses tags in the LP store. Most items you can just throw more LP and ISK at rather than build tag shopping lists. Items you can't do that with aren't in the markets. Oh contrar mi capiton, yes you do.
Yes, you are correct. That 1 in 200,000 guys who puts 800 mill in Navy guns on his ship makes the difference. They are the corner stone of the EVE economy. They are the back bone of trillions.
Cal navy 425's. 34 available in Jita. To fit a Rokh would run you just under a billion.  |

IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
269
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:02:00 -
[33] - Quote
Zoe Issier wrote:Why should i search you made the claim so back up your claim with a up to date study of the numbers
no proff gtfo
Wow, really is it that difficult for you? You have been told exactly how to find the simple answers and incapable of summoning either the attention span or mental agility to do so you just pretend there is no proff?
x-ISK earn't from mission rewards per month y-ISK earn't from NPC bounties per month
k = ratio between NPC bounties and mission rewards (easily calculable as there are only a small pool of missions)
x * k / y = % of bounty ISK made from high sec missions.
Its so simple I'm amazed I even bothered to write it out for you, the numbers are all out there. |

Arec Bardwin
798
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:05:00 -
[34] - Quote
Sisohiv wrote:[quote=Piugattuk] Nobody uses tags in the LP store. Check the market for faction EANMs, neuts, smart bombs, webs and scrams/disruptors. All of these are popular pvp items.
|

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10296
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:08:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sisohiv wrote:Nobody uses tags in the LP store. Most items you can just throw more LP and ISK at rather than build tag shopping lists. Items you can't do that with aren't in the markets. Quite the opposite. Items you can't do that with are the ones that eat up all the tags, and they give you nice returns for the effort, compared the ones where you can just throw more ISK at the item. Sure, there might be more of the latter since they're easier to generate (and they provide horrid ISK/LP ratios as a consequence), but categorically stating that tag-requiring items aren't on the market (often in numbers) is categorically false.
Not that it matters anyway GÇö they generally still sink their fair amount of ISK in addition to the tags (and create a second round of taxes and fees from those tag sales) so there would be no need to fiddle with them regardless. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |

Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:15:00 -
[36] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Zoe Issier wrote:Why should i search you made the claim so back up your claim with a up to date study of the numbers
no proff gtfo Wow, really is it that difficult for you? You have been told exactly how to find the simple answers and incapable of summoning either the attention span or mental agility to do so you just pretend there is no proff? x-ISK earn't from mission rewards per month y-ISK earn't from NPC bounties per month k = ratio between NPC bounties and mission rewards (easily calculable as there are only a small pool of missions) x * k / y = % of bounty ISK made from high sec missions. Its so simple I'm amazed I even bothered to write it out for you, the numbers are all out there.
All x' and y's but no link?
Why should i wast my time searching becouse some random pulled numbers out they @ss make a claim back it up
on side not i couldnt care either way about mission seemedca intresting debate but lacks proff of numbers from claims |

Shederov Blood
Wrecketeers
213
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sisohiv wrote:Piugattuk wrote:Sisohiv wrote:Piugattuk wrote:Ok, sure. Just get rid of the need to buy LP store items with isk and tags...whoops, that kills someone else's income, tags, farming tags would be pointless cause who will buy them if you don't need it for LP store, this takes content out of the game. Sure im for it if I won't need tags and isk to buy pimp items.  And keep LP prices for items as is. Nobody uses tags in the LP store. Most items you can just throw more LP and ISK at rather than build tag shopping lists. Items you can't do that with aren't in the markets. Oh contrar mi capiton, yes you do. Yes, you are correct. That 1 in 200,000 guys who puts 800 mill in Navy guns on his ship makes the difference. They are the corner stone of the EVE economy. They are the back bone of trillions. Cal navy 425's. 34 available in Jita. To fit a Rokh would run you just under a billion.  Fed Navy magstabs. Caldari Navy Invuls. Imperial Navy EANMs. Republic Fleet warp disruptors. ... and many more. 
|

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10298
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:27:00 -
[38] - Quote
Zoe Issier wrote:Why should i wast my time searching Because you asked for it. Just because you can't be arsed to look up the reference doesn't mean the numbers don't exist.
Oh, and they're not random, and they are pulled from the game. If that happens to displease you, you can always go and perform your own study. As it is, 150bn ISK/day (rewards + bonuses) +ù 3GÇô4 GåÆ 450GÇô600bn ISK/day in bounties compared to the 900bn total. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |

Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:39:00 -
[39] - Quote
No i asked you to back up your claim with up to date official study
but again you just type random numbers with no link to back up your claim
proff or gtfo tbh |

Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
26
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:42:00 -
[40] - Quote
Caldari Navy Small Graviton Smartbomb
Tags required-
168 Fed Navy sergeant insignia I 210 Fed Navy Sergeant insignia II 253 Fed Navy Sergeant insignia III
Cost of tags 18 Million at Jita sell price
LP / ISK Cost
33,750 LP + 13.5 Million Isk
Total Isk Cost to buy from LP store 31.5 m isk + 33k LP
Jita Sell Price.... 9 Million ISK
Even without the tags you're still looking at a loss.
LP stores need a serious rebalance |

Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:43:00 -
[41] - Quote
Yes, "punishing those who don't play as I do, or I want them to" has always been a popular topic with a certain faction of Eve players.
|

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10299
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:49:00 -
[42] - Quote
Zoe Issier wrote:No i asked you to back up your claim with up to date official study Actually, no, you didn't. You asked me to provide a source for my numbers. I did, and now you don't want to go look if it's accurate or not. If you don't like Kefira's numbers, you can always collect your own. It shouldn't take more than a week or so.
Your wilful ignorance does not make numbers random. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |

Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:53:00 -
[43] - Quote
Zoe Issier wrote:Link the large N-studys you say you have that shows most the isk come from missions or is it just a random number you pulled out your @ss
all the carriers running noms in 0.0 av nothing to do with it am i right?
See were i type Link the large N-studys
its ok if you have no up to date official numbers you could allways try pulling random numbers out your @ss
Oh wait! |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10299
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:56:00 -
[44] - Quote
Zoe Issier wrote:See were i type Link the large N-studys Yes. I provided you with the reference to them, and then you moved the goal posts because apparently the existence of such data was problematic.
Until you disprove the data in them, the only random asspulls are yours since you can't dispute anything said within them.
So: 900bn ISK/day in bounties paid out GÇö known. 1:3GÇô1:4 ratio between rewards and bounties GÇö empirically tested. 150bn ISK/day in rewards GÇö known.
Thus: 450GÇô600bn ISK/day in mission-specific bounties. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |

Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
No not realy would just like to see your evidence to back up your claim if you dont have none thats ok random numbers are allways good |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10299
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:02:00 -
[46] - Quote
Zoe Issier wrote:No not realy Yes, very really. You asked for one thing, got it, and had to ask for a different thing for some reasonGǪ
Quote:would just like to see your evidence to back up your claim It's right there, just go look at it. Can you offer anything that might disprove the data available?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |

Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
All i asked for was a link to these number of studys you claim as back up
up to date and official i asumed would be common sence no point looking at a study from 2008 or one made by a random dude with no evidence to back up theyer number
im sorry for asuming common sence wont happen again
now in the intrest of this thread and you claims could you please provide a link to a official up to date study
thank you
if not random typed numbers will do |

Speaker4 theDead
Furian Necromongers
14
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:09:00 -
[48] - Quote
Amateratsu wrote:Dave stark wrote:so you're suggesting more effort for less reward?
i can see this going down well. No, the reward would be balance by increasing the LP and adiing more / better items to the LP Store. For example increase the lp payout to say 25 - 30k for a good mission, add more valuable items to the store for example multiple run bpc's for ships and other factions items. How about a 5 run faction battleship bpc for say 1.5m LP? So the reward will be as good as it is now.
And ruin FW in the process? |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10299
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:15:00 -
[49] - Quote
Zoe Issier wrote:All i asked for was a link to these number of studys you claim as back up GǪand I provided you with the references needed. Your wilful ignorance has made me disinclined to help you further than what's needed.
Quote:up to date and official i asumed would be common sence no point looking at a study from 2008 or one made by a random dude with no evidence to back up theyer number As luck would have it, the data is there and is not random. As luck would further have it, mission composition hasn't changed since to make the relevant data subject to age decay. You would know all this if you had actually know the topic, known the pre-existing numbers, looked at the data, and stopped trying to move the goal posts because the facts didn't correspond to your wishes.
Quote:if not random typed numbers will do Already provided:
900bn ISK/day in bounties paid out GÇö known. 1:3GÇô1:4 ratio between rewards and bounties GÇö empirically tested. 150bn ISK/day in rewards GÇö known.
Thus: 450GÇô600bn ISK/day in mission-specific bounties.
Do you have any data to dispute or disprove these numbers? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |

Nexus Day
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
101
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:19:00 -
[50] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nexus Day wrote:Mission running injects alot of isk into the economy because....
There are a lot more casual mission runners these days that.pay a sub, so... GǪthey are the perfect target for reductions in ISK injection since you can go a long way with very little. Their large numbers mean that even a small change can have a large effect, all without making the life miserable for them individually so no subs will be lost. At some point you will have to either adapt or walk into the sunset with your shield on your back.
Blanket changes never have small effects. |

Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:20:00 -
[51] - Quote
Shederov Blood wrote:Sisohiv wrote:Piugattuk wrote:Sisohiv wrote:Piugattuk wrote:Ok, sure. Just get rid of the need to buy LP store items with isk and tags...whoops, that kills someone else's income, tags, farming tags would be pointless cause who will buy them if you don't need it for LP store, this takes content out of the game. Sure im for it if I won't need tags and isk to buy pimp items.  And keep LP prices for items as is. Nobody uses tags in the LP store. Most items you can just throw more LP and ISK at rather than build tag shopping lists. Items you can't do that with aren't in the markets. Oh contrar mi capiton, yes you do. Yes, you are correct. That 1 in 200,000 guys who puts 800 mill in Navy guns on his ship makes the difference. They are the corner stone of the EVE economy. They are the back bone of trillions. Cal navy 425's. 34 available in Jita. To fit a Rokh would run you just under a billion.  Fed Navy magstabs. Caldari Navy Invuls. Imperial Navy EANMs. Republic Fleet warp disruptors. ... and many more. 
Show me the thousands of Kill Mails with all these faction fits. Or is EVE not all about the PvP today? Are we on the tails side of the flip flop coin?
Even if someone is buying 2 Navy Invulns, they are going on his L4 mission ship and won't be replaced for 2 years. But yes, lets build the econ around over night billionaires that never risk their pimp fits because every now and then a goon will rush to the forums with a one off kill mail worth 40 billion because some guy logged in to EVE after a long day and got sloppy. That's the successful EVE we can look forward to.
You talk out of both sides of your mouth way to often.
|

Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:20:00 -
[52] - Quote
Arr still no up to date official link of study
sorry but must dismiss your argument as bull
Claims of studys but no official up to date link of said study for the thread to veiw
exsample of valid argument
i say pigs can fly i link pic of police in helicopter
simplkss |

James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1204
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:24:00 -
[53] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Search for Kefira's GÇ£mission incomeGÇ¥ threads.
Tippia wrote:Search for Kefira's GÇ£mission incomeGÇ¥ threads.
Tippia wrote:Search for Kefira's GÇ£mission incomeGÇ¥ threads.
Tippia wrote:Search for Kefira's GÇ£mission incomeGÇ¥ threads.
Tippia wrote:Search for Kefira's GÇ£mission incomeGÇ¥ threads. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |

Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:29:00 -
[54] - Quote
Why should i
i didnt make the claim why should i search to validate someone els argument
But hey i ear random typed numbrrs are all the rage when validating a debate |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10299
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:31:00 -
[55] - Quote
Nexus Day wrote:At some point you will have to either adapt or walk into the sunset with your shield on your back.
Blanket changes never have small effects. Depends on what you mean by blanket changes and small effectsGǪ 
But yes, that's kind of the point: the amount of missions being run and the amount of people running them (180k characters the last time I saw any number on it) means that you don't need much to have relatively large effects on the overall inflow of ISK. Shifting, say, 5% of the rewards from pure ISK into LP would mean roughly 15bn ISK less a day coming into the economy. Sure, the market will react and alter prices but on the face of it, that means a (near-)zero net change in income that reduces the daily net influx by 1.5%, and the pain for the individual mission-runner should be relatively minor. I can't think of any other faucet where the same kind of adjustment on the individual level would have anywhere near the same global effect.
Zoe Issier wrote:sorry but must dismiss your argument as bull So you still have no data to dispute what we know from empirical research and published statistics? Well, then you can dismiss me as much as you like, but the bull is all yours. I'm sorry that facts were not in your favour, and I'm even more sorry that you couldn't even spot the obvious point of contention in the available data. That's what happens when you rely on fallacies rather than actual arguments or research.
Quote:But hey i ear random typed numbrrs are all the rage when validating a debate Well, that would certainly explain why you try to use that kind of data. Unfortunately, it's not actually good enough to dispute what we have at our disposal. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |

Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:34:00 -
[56] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nexus Day wrote:At some point you will have to either adapt or walk into the sunset with your shield on your back.
Blanket changes never have small effects. Depends on what you mean by blanket changes and small effectsGǪ  But yes, that's kind of the point: the amount of missions being run and the amount of people running them (180k characters the last time I saw any number on it) means that you don't need much to have relatively large effects on the overall inflow of ISK. Shifting, say, 5% of the rewards from pure ISK into LP would mean roughly 15bn ISK less a day coming into the economy. Sure, the market will react and alter prices but on the face of it, that means a (near-)zero net change in income that reduces the daily net influx by 1.5%, and the pain for the individual mission-runner should be relatively minor. I can't think of any other faucet where the same kind of adjustment on the individual level would have anywhere near the same global effect.
As long as every alliance gets a nice moon goo basket so they don't need to rely on tax to pay Sov, sure. When you talk macro fixing, it's the alliances that will see the impacts, not the alliance members. |

Serena Serene
Heretic University Heretic Nation
3671
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:37:00 -
[57] - Quote
Zoe Issier wrote:Why should i
i didnt make the claim why should i search to validate someone els argument
But hey i ear random typed numbrrs are all the rage when validating a debate
Because you said you thought the discussion is interesting. If you are interested in something, I'd expect you to put that little small effort in to inform yourself when others already point you to information sources. You don't want to? I guess you are just a troll, trying to get some attention.. which sadly I am even providing *sighs*
You could of course search out the information you were shown the way to and then explain the reasons it is not valid, if you find something to complain. But that'd require you to have a point, to think, and to do something, so I guess that won't happen.
Edit: ... too heavy usage of the word "point". Changed that a bit xD |

baltec1
Bat Country
2779
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:40:00 -
[58] - Quote
Zoe Issier wrote:Why should i
i didnt make the claim why should i search to validate someone els argument
But hey i ear random typed numbrrs are all the rage when validating a debate
And this is why people still think global warming isnt happening and evolution doesn't exist. Info has been provided, go look at it. |

Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:45:00 -
[59] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Zoe Issier wrote:Why should i
i didnt make the claim why should i search to validate someone els argument
But hey i ear random typed numbrrs are all the rage when validating a debate And this is why people still think global warming isnt happening and evolution doesn't exist. Info has been provided, go look at it.
Ppl care about global warming wow i dnt tbh
bck on topic what data you want from me i didnt make any claims of punch random numbers just asked for a link to you meny number of studys
|

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10299
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:46:00 -
[60] - Quote
Sisohiv wrote:As long as every alliance gets a nice moon goo basket so they don't need to rely on tax to pay Sov, sure. When you talk macro fixing, it's the alliances that will see the impacts, not the alliance members. How do you mean? Even if they relied on taxes, the alliances couldn't be hit any harder than the members are GÇö they still only collect tax on (some) fauceted ISK.
That said, I was a bit unclear: of course it would have even larger macro-scale effects if bounties as a whole took a hit (since that would affect every kind of normal rat-murdering, not just missions), but outside of missions, there's not currently any mechanic that could replace that lost income. Cutting bounties by 2% would generate the same reduction in ISK as the 5% mission reward shift in the example, but it would unquestionably be a reduction.
The beauty of going after the missions is that the reward and bonus facuets are very neatly matched by the LP store sink, so depending on the elasticity of LP good prices, you can create much larger shifts from faucet to sink compared to how much ISK the user actually loses from the shift. Should your local merchant deity smile on you, you could have a reduction in ISK influx without any loss in incomeGǪ
Zoe Issier wrote:bck on topic what data you want from me i didnt make any claims Yes you did. You claimed that the numbers we have at our disposal are GÇ£randomGÇ¥ and GÇ£BSGÇ¥. I want to see the data you have that backs up these assertions. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
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