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LUKEC	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:19:00 - [61] i just wonder how many inty pilots ever get webbed? none... so drones are not really solution vs inys, as lighs are more joke than not.
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:20:00 - [62] Wouldn't it be better to just lower the drone bay of Thorax (and thus also it successor, the Deimos), like transfer part of that drone bay(1000m¦ of Thorax to Vexor, lower drone bay of Deimos to 500m¦) to the Vexor which is supposed to be drone king cruiser? Perhaps also raise Zealots drone bay to the level of the T1 Omen (300m¦), might not be much but its something, enough to fit 6 light drones. small boost to Zealot, nerf to thorax and deimos ------------------------------------------ The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:24:00 - [63] Originally by: LUKEC i just wonder how many inty pilots ever get webbed? none... so drones are not really solution vs inys, as lighs are more joke than not. No inties get webbed? Do you play EVE? ________________________________________________________
Tragar	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:25:00 - [64] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Tragar TBH I think the whole of the amarrian race got screwed with T2 :\ none of my t2 large lasers (beams and pulse) can compare to a 1400 II, dual 650 II, 425 II, Ion II it makes me cry :\ T2 is the exact same bonus for lasers as it is for any other gun. So you either say all lasers suck... or they don't, but just the t2 flavors sucking is practically impossible. Your forgetting everyone else has 5% dmg bonus per bs level added on top :\
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:26:00 - [65] Originally by: Reatu Krentor Wouldn't it be better to just lower the drone bay of Thorax (and thus also it successor, the Deimos), like transfer part of that drone bay(1000m¦ of Thorax to Vexor, lower drone bay of Deimos to 500m¦) to the Vexor which is supposed to be drone king cruiser? Perhaps also raise Zealots drone bay to the level of the T1 Omen (300m¦), might not be much but its something, enough to fit 6 light drones. small boost to Zealot, nerf to thorax and deimos The Thorax should get a drone bay nerf, that's been a long time coming. I do not think the Deimos should get nerfed, it's fine as is. ________________________________________________________
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:27:00 - [66] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Gariuys But can't resist this one, OMG a interceptor using short range weapons has to fight inside web range? wow that's like amazing, none of the other interceptors need to do that... no sirrreeeee. I'd be fine fighting in a crusader at close range if i had 3 mids and 3 lows. Thats not the case and having inties warp out with like 20% hull has to be the most frustrating thing ever. Nothing makes you go limp faster then that :/ Thats why fighting above 10km is crucial in a Crusader. Then don't fit pulses... ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:27:00 - [67] Originally by: Tragar Your forgetting everyone else has 5% dmg bonus per bs level added on top :\ The geddon has a 5% rof bonus and the apoc is the strongest bs tank. ________________________________________________________
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:28:00 - [68] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 02/05/2005 21:31:11 Originally by: Icomeinpeace Even worse than the zealot is the crusader, which got hit much harder as now having an optimal in webby range with tech II pulse. waaaaaa. Gee, take a look at small autocannon sometime. ALLWAYS had a really short range, and you wanna argue ppl can't kill with them? Get over yourselves. Wow, the Zealot can't kill everything in sight anymore. And? No other HAC can either. Arguing that a HAC should be able to defend itself if tackled AND have massive firepower is just AMUSING. If anything, halve the Deimos's drone bay. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:30:00 - [69] Originally by: Tragar Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Tragar TBH I think the whole of the amarrian race got screwed with T2 :\ none of my t2 large lasers (beams and pulse) can compare to a 1400 II, dual 650 II, 425 II, Ion II it makes me cry :\ T2 is the exact same bonus for lasers as it is for any other gun. So you either say all lasers suck... or they don't, but just the t2 flavors sucking is practically impossible. Your forgetting everyone else has 5% dmg bonus per bs level added on top :\ Armageddon gets Rate of Fire bonus, which is practically the same. The only bs that gets a bigger bonus is the Tempest because it gets double bonus, damage and rate of fire, but it does need it, projectile turrets aren't as good without these bonuses tbh ------------------------------------------ The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr.
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:31:00 - [70] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Right, now pulse lasers are suddenly shortrange. :\| Pulse lasers are medrange guns, if they have to use both an MWD and a Web, which shortrange guns have to aswell, you might aswell start fitting shortrange guns. I could remind you though that my suggestion for pulse changes was making them like blasters. Ie, 4km optimal, slightly higher tracking and damage. Med range for a frigate, is well short range. ( if you go by the definition of short range being inside web ) There are exceptions, but trully short range for a frigate is a couple of 100meters of optimal, not kms. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:34:00 - [71] Originally by: Meridius Oh, and medium drones + web = erased inty. Have you SEEN my setup? heh "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:38:00 - [72] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Heavy Beam IIs will not hit a webbed Interceptor. Not will 720mm II nor will 250mm II. That is a fact i can accept. But the Deimos and the Muninn have another way of dealing with this, Zealot does not. And please. Carrying cap charges would defeat the entire purpose of the no-ammo argument. I could live with having to use cap charges, but they'd need some work to last longer then a single fight, and lasers would need a boost to make up for having to use ammo. Do i need to link you to all the threads saying lasers use no ammo and have to pay for it? I've better things to carry in my hold, and they don't involve cap charges nor loot. The drawback lasers used to have for not using ammo has LOOOONG ago been removed. It was cap usage. And god don't we all have stuff we'd like to carry round. But you can't say my ship sucks, cause I don't use the options i available cause I got more important things to stuff in my cargo hold. That don't work. If you won't use that option. You pay the price. If I stop carrying the stupid amounts of antimatter m i need, or stocking up on moronic drones that are more trouble then they're worth. Then that's hardly a reason to boost the deimos now is it? ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:54:00 - [73] Ok, fine. So remove the -10% cap use per level and give every single amarr ship a new bonus. I'm all for it, it's a boring bonus anyway. For the love of god, even our Missile boat had this bonus untill last patch which fixed this. (It's still crap, but thats a different matter.) /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:56:00 - [74] Originally by: Maya Rkell i am the bestest claw pilot in teh world Ok, please use something other then a Claw and maybe i'll actually read your post. ________________________________________________________
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:58:00 - [75] Quote: Wow, the Zealot can't kill everything in sight anymore. And? No other HAC can either. K, now stop spitting all over yourself, calm down and think about this: Will giving the Zealot 500m3 drone bay enable it to 'kill everything in sight'? Quote: Arguing that a HAC should be able to defend itself if tackled AND have massive firepower is just AMUSING. Not as amusing as the realization that every other HAC besides the Zealot can do just that.
Seto Mazzarotto	Posted - 2005.05.02 23:29:00 - [76] I hope the people reading this thread keep in mind that missiles, as they stand now, aren't behaving as they should. This whole motion prediction nonsense has got to go, and one shouldn't base ship balance around it. Which means that they're not the answer for dealing with the scrambing inty. Or at least won't be once they're actually working as intended. Which pretty much leaves drones as the one viable anti-frigate defense out there. For those so worried about frigate defense, have you tried such radical steps as using a med slot or two to counteract the small sig radius & high-velocity antics of those pesky interceptors? There's modules out that can tip such things in your favor, you know. Maybe even pack a wingman. But hey, that's unheard of. I mean, who wants to fly a 60mil ship with no insurance into battle with something so completely redundant as backup? That said... yes, I think the Zealot could use a drone bay. But so could every other HAC that's been robbed of theirs in the transition to Tech II. ----------- Fighting for the ideals of freespace, posthuman ethics, and rock & roll.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 23:42:00 - [77] Edited by: Meridius on 02/05/2005 23:44:50 Originally by: Seto Mazzarotto I hope the people reading this thread keep in mind that missiles, as they stand now, aren't behaving as they should. This whole motion prediction nonsense has got to go, and one shouldn't base ship balance around it. I hate to break it to you but missle balance has been in CCP's que for like a year. I will take things how they stand now and until CCP figures out what they are actually going to do with missiles. ________________________________________________________
Shayla Sh'inlux	Posted - 2005.05.03 00:54:00 - [78] Quote: 'bla bla Pulse Laser never hit inties bla bla not even when webbed' 2005.04.24 19:05:00 Victim: Shayla Sh'inlux Corporation: Millennium Destroyed Type: Taranis <-- look it's an Inty Solar System: SL-YBS System Security Level: 0.0 Involved parties: Name: Arathian Evasion (laid the final blow) Security Status: 1.0 Corporation: M. Corp Ship Type: Prophecy <-- look not even a HAC but a Proph Weapon Type: Heavy Pulse Laser II <-- look HPL II This was between 300m and 500m without me running MWD. It also was with a single (one; 1) target painter. Now stop whining. ------------------------------------------------------- "Do you really think that's air you're breathing?"
Liu Kaskakka	Posted - 2005.05.03 02:22:00 - [79] I cannot fly this ship, thus I conclude that it does not need a boost of any sort!
keepiru	Posted - 2005.05.03 02:24:00 - [80] Originally by: Liu Kaskakka I cannot fly this ship, thus I conclude that it does not need a boost of any sort! Lol Liu ahem. clears throat I very much want to fly this ship, thus I conclude it should be made uber! ------------- Originally by: Gnauton It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.03 02:51:00 - [81] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Quote: 'bla bla Pulse Laser never hit inties bla bla not even when webbed' 2005.04.24 19:05:00 Victim: Shayla Sh'inlux Corporation: Millennium Destroyed Type: Taranis <-- look it's an Inty Solar System: SL-YBS System Security Level: 0.0 Involved parties: Name: Arathian Evasion (laid the final blow) Security Status: 1.0 Corporation: M. Corp Ship Type: Prophecy <-- look not even a HAC but a Proph Weapon Type: Heavy Pulse Laser II <-- look HPL II This was between 300m and 500m without me running MWD. It also was with a single (one; 1) target painter. Now stop whining. Who said heavy pulse can't hit an inty while webbed? I sure didn't. ________________________________________________________
brentgod	Posted - 2005.05.03 02:58:00 - [82] Look at the grid difference between the zealot and the deminos. Try fitting railguns + med armor rep to a deminos for long range. Then fit Beams and armor rep to a zealot and see which one has enough low slots left for dmg mods. Deminos realy struggles at long range. Zealot is more versitile in its set-ups. Just my opinion flam away
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.03 04:30:00 - [83] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Quote: Arguing that a HAC should be able to defend itself if tackled AND have massive firepower is just AMUSING. Not as amusing as the realization that every other HAC besides the Zealot can do just that. Hahahahahaha.
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2005.05.03 04:37:00 - [84] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Letifer Deus -Ishtar with 14x heavies and lvl4 drone skills does 296 dmg/sec, zealot with 4 heavy pulse II does 227 dmg/sec, so yeah, you're right. But I know that you know how unreliable drones are in combat. They can be shot and killed, they can be smartbombed. And 2 dmg mods will put you well over the drones damage. Wow, i didn't actually know it was that bad. I have to use 4 tech 2 guns and 2 tech 2 damage mods to outdamage an Ishtars drones which are only at lvl 4 Not even taking into account an ishtar can in fact fit some decent guns to add even more DPS as it gets a 25% dmg bonus Drones not reliable? I depend on drones quite a bit when using my arma, can't say i've ever had any problems with them being destroyed. The main problem i've had involves me leaving them when i have to warp out Oh, and medium drones + web = erased inty. I also forgot to add in that it is 296 dmg/sec if you use ONLY Ogres, it drops significantly with other drone types. 240 dmg/sec if one were to use all berserkers. Not to mention drone dmg has by far the largest damage delay of anything (especially with Ogres.) There are quite a few downsides to having the majority of your damage being in drones, I don't see how you can overlook that. I won't be so silly as to say Ishtar is not one of the better HACs, it is, but it is not in any way "uber." And let's be honest, the zealot in no way shape or form "blows" I am the OG PIIIIIMP
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 04:50:00 - [85] Ok, whatever. Answer this: Would adding 500m3 drone bay to Zealot make it overpowered, or merely somewhat on par with others?
Vex Seraphim	Posted - 2005.05.03 04:51:00 - [86] Haven't read the whole thread, but why not a huge range bonus? ------------------- :: finite horizon :: killboard :: :: bio :: blog ::
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.03 04:56:00 - [87] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Ok, whatever. Answer this: Would adding 500m3 drone bay to Zealot make it overpowered, or merely somewhat on par with others? It wouldn't make it overpowered, but it doesn't need it. Does that make sense? The zealot as it is has a niche it performs well - a medium range gankship. It performs this better than any other heavy cruiser. The downside to its incredible fitting ease, is its lack of versatility (no drone bay or missiles).
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 05:16:00 - [88] Does the Deimos need its 1000m3 drone bay? Without it, it would perform quite similarly to a Zealot, yet it still has the drone bay. How can you simply say it doesn't need it? I think it does.
Sadist	Posted - 2005.05.03 05:21:00 - [89] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Does the Deimos need its 1000m3 drone bay? Without it, it would perform quite similarly to a Zealot, yet it still has the drone bay. How can you simply say it doesn't need it? I think it does. Dont want to interrupt the hot-heated discussion, but wasnt the problem in the first place about not doing enough DPS? Do the 9 medium drones really make a difference from "omg,suxors" to "omfg,uber,nerf it plz plz plz" ? _______________________________________________
keepiru	Posted - 2005.05.03 07:06:00 - [90] Originally by: Selim Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Ok, whatever. Answer this: Would adding 500m3 drone bay to Zealot make it overpowered, or merely somewhat on par with others? It wouldn't make it overpowered, but it doesn't need it. Does that make sense? The zealot as it is has a niche it performs well - a medium range gankship. It performs this better than any other heavy cruiser. The downside to its incredible fitting ease, is its lack of versatility (no drone bay or missiles). ..depends on your def of med range... seems to me its more along the lines of - but not completely - a med range gank ship that now suddenly has to use short-range weapons. Youre not in blaster-level short range, but since you need multis to gank something, that puts you very close to web range - which is to all intents and purposes short range - in a ship that doesent really have the cap to use MWD to keep at that range. Your em will kill an eagle, but any eagle pilot that sees you AB at him and hangs around probably deserves what's coming to him... Or anyway, that's what it looks like to me from here. ------------- Originally by: Gnauton It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.

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